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Statistic and Grover Cleveland in the lead

Becoming only the second President in history to serve non-consecutive terms, the first being Grover Cleveland. Is the statistic leadworthy? Is Grover Cleveland leadworthy? (Also, MOS:EDITORIAL, MOS:OFFICE, and missing subject and verb.) Space4Time3Continuum2x🖖 18:21, 11 November 2024 (UTC)

I personally think that something that has only happened twice in over 200 years of U.S. presidency is lead worthy, but others may disagree, that's just my two cents Artem P75 (talk) 22:19, 11 November 2024 (UTC)
This indicates support for the first sentence. Do you support the second? Rollinginhisgrave (talk) 22:41, 11 November 2024 (UTC)
I'm not really sure what the second is proposing, I had a look at those policies but have obviously missed / overlooked something when trying to understand Artem P75 (talk) 23:39, 11 November 2024 (UTC)
Artem P75 apologies if I was unclear. The second sentence is Is Grover Cleveland leadworthy? Rollinginhisgrave (talk) 00:17, 12 November 2024 (UTC)
I guess maybe not? as he isn't the subject matter? Maybe we could mention Trump being only the second without mentioning Grover... but I also do agree with @Muboshgu that the lead is too long and could use some culling Artem P75 (talk) 00:20, 12 November 2024 (UTC)
Not to nitpick, but he hasn't served his second term, yet. The sentence would be more accurate, after he assumes office in January 2025. GoodDay (talk) 22:43, 11 November 2024 (UTC)
Ah yeah, I agree with that, I think the policy is WP:CRYSTALBALL? Or something that I have seen used for this? Maybe could say elected to serve a second term instead? Otherwise may as well just wait until the 20th of Jan to make the decision Artem P75 (talk) 23:38, 11 November 2024 (UTC)
Our lead is too long as it is. Throwing in this tidbit about Grover Cleveland doesn't help matters. It's WP:TRIVIA. – Muboshgu (talk) 00:12, 12 November 2024 (UTC)

Removed Grover Cleveland reference Rollinginhisgrave (talk) 00:44, 12 November 2024 (UTC)

Not trivia by any means; pulling a Grover Cleveland by winning the 2024 Presidential race after losing a bid for re-election in 2020 is something Donald here has lately been getting lots of attention for, with the press making comparisons between both men following this highly unusual achievement. The 132 years elapsing before that happening on the other hand is an expendable count. We definitely should have some mention of doing something only Grover did before. Let's not downplay the significance of it. The first paragraph doesn't necessarily have to be the place to discuss that, and I'm fine with the last one doing so. In the linked diff showing removal, Rollinginhisgrave also carelessly ignored how the ambiguity of just saying Donald is the second to win non-consecutive election will leave readers asking "Who was the first to do so?" and we shouldn't assume everyone will already know the answer. SNUGGUMS (talk / edits) 02:33, 12 November 2024 (UTC)
Highly unusual because parties usually have the good sense not to nominate the loser a second time, but good sense goes out the window after a political party has transformed itself into a cult. Cleveland's misogyny (sensible and responsible women do not want to vote. The relative positions to be assumed by men and women in the working out of our civilization were assigned long ago by a higher intelligence) and anti-labor stance would have fit right in but how many readers come to this page to read about him. Also, "second"? Trump has a few — uh — achievements all to himself: first felon, first man found liable by a court for sexual assault, first nominee/president-elect to be promoting merch from shoes to Bibles Made in China branded with his name. If we want to cite stats in the lead, these are the ones we should select. Space4Time3Continuum2x🖖 13:34, 12 November 2024 (UTC)
SNUGGUMS Much of the lede invites questions: why did his businesses fail? How did Russia interfere? What did he do that was racist, sexist etc? So on. To answer those questions a reader may read on to see what the lede is summarizing. It's the nature of summary style. Rollinginhisgrave (talk) 13:56, 12 November 2024 (UTC)

You're presuming all viewers would have enough time to read the page beyond its lead section and that's not a guarantee. To elaborate on rarity, what I'm getting at is that non-consecutive wins are an almost unprecedented occurrence that many folks once believed would never be repeated. The closest anybody came before last week was Theodore Roosevelt during the 1912 election. This is far less common than things like businesses failing or someone being racist/sexist. While I can't yet say for sure that it'll be the most prominent trait of his Presidential statistics like it appears to be for Grover, people either way would expect a straightforward mention of names when discussing only one of two in history who broke longstanding patterns. It wouldn't exactly be a big bloat to simply identify him. SNUGGUMS (talk / edits) 22:47, 12 November 2024 (UTC)

I would agree that something that has happened only twice in over 200 years is lead worthy... I think the lead in general needs a very thorough cleanup, for example the entire third paragraph, starting with:
"In his first term, Trump ordered a travel ban on citizens from several Muslim-majority countries, funded expansion of the Mexico–United States border wall..."
Should probably just be moved to the "First Presidency" section... These are things he did while he was in office for his first term so I would think that is the section where they belong rather than contributing to the bloat in the lead... but I will not expand the subject matter here and will raise another talk page post on this Artem...Talk 22:57, 12 November 2024 (UTC)
Leads convey the most important parts of the person's bio. There are a number of sources about Grover Cleveland's presidency now that we have a second non-consecutive term president, but this press will die out before Thanksgiving and it will be mostly forgotten. Cleveland is meaningless to Trump's biography aside from that one trivial commonality. I do agree about the need for a thorough rewrite though. – Muboshgu (talk) 23:02, 12 November 2024 (UTC)
We need to reflect the emphasis that RS put on this. Our discussion of the comparison to Cleveland is sourced to this NPR article. Those who support including the comparison in the lede: do you think this sourcing verifies that inclusion in the lede would be WP:PROPORTIONATE, and that it's inclusion (from WP:MOS/LEAD) reflect[s] its importance to the topic? Rollinginhisgrave (talk) 23:35, 12 November 2024 (UTC)
I do not think there is a weight issue here per WP:PROPORTIONATE, it currently only makes up a single sentence of the lead, its not as though it goes in to depth or discussion, it just mentions it as a single line tagged on to the mentioning of his second victory, which was a non-consecutive victory, so I believe is worth mentioning as it is only the second in history. Although this is also mentioned at the end of the first paragraph: "In November 2024, he was re-elected to a second, non-consecutive term as president" so we could add mention of the fact that this is only the second time this has happened in that section and remove mention of it in the last paragraph? Artem...Talk 23:52, 12 November 2024 (UTC)
Just to be clear, that NPR link isn't the only piece to make comparisons between these guys, and Artem has a good point on weight/proportionate concerns. I see no violation per the importance of these unconventional winning stats. Muboshgu also got overly hasty with remarks on people forgetting it before Thanksgiving. That's purely speculation and we have no way of telling for certain how many will remember the similarities. SNUGGUMS (talk / edits) 23:57, 12 November 2024 (UTC)
Thanks SNUGGUMS and Artem for these replies. I agree that Muboshgu's comment likely fell too far into WP:CRYSTALBALL, but we do need to account for WP:RECENTISM. Including one sentence on something of course can give too much weight, even if it's not in depth. I'm sure you can think of many examples. Proportion therefore applies, as does MOS:LEAD.
so I believe is worth mentioning as it is only the second in history I understand you believe that, but we are to reflect the importance placed by RS. Do you think that is demonstrated by the source provided?
that NPR link isn't the only piece to make comparisons If you think other sources are able/better able to verify the importance, please provide them.
I want to reassure you both that I'm not opposed to including the comparison, I just want to ensure it's inclusion doesn't violate WP:NPOV by verifying that importance placed reflects that of RS. Rollinginhisgrave (talk) 00:18, 13 November 2024 (UTC)
I guess if giving appropriate weight to the RS is the concern it would be beneficial to locate other sources that report on this so as to not give an undue balance. I'm sure this will not be difficult as it does seem like something noteworthy, but then again it may not be as noteworthy as I perceive and there very may well not be much RS on it. I will see if I can locate some good reliable sources in my free time this afternoon and propose them here Artem...Talk 01:00, 13 November 2024 (UTC)

For what it's worth, there's pieces from The Daily Telegraph, The Hill, The New York Times, USA Today Miami Herald, WBC-TV (aka NBC Washington), etc. that discuss differences and similarities between the men. If you want other samples, then I could provide those as well. SNUGGUMS (talk / edits) 06:23, 13 November 2024 (UTC)

That's okay for now. This goes some way to establishing WP:WEIGHT, although insufficiently (it's unclear how this goes beyond simple verifiability, and verifiability does not guarantee inclusion). To avoid Wikipedia:Bring me a rock, if you'll permit me a few hours I'll have a look through sourcing. Rollinginhisgrave (talk) 06:43, 13 November 2024 (UTC)

SNUGGUMS, Artem P75 I had a go at evaluating the weighting RS put on claims to importance. I used a sample of sources; a different sample may generate different results.

I searched "donald trump win" (not in quotes) on Google. I opened every result for a few pages and closed pages that were attributed as an individual's opinion or analysis. I closed some that didn't discuss what the election meant. I closed some that were about a subtopic, such as the election win in Arizona, and talked about the importance to Arizona etc. Excluded articles were: [1][2][3][4][5][6][7][8][9][10][11][12][13]. I then crudely coded the results and even more crudely numerically described the emphasis the source was placing (1 being in the title, 0 being not mentioned).

Extended content
Crude Coding of news articles
Title Outlet + Latino shift + votes on border + Urban votes No change in suburban vote Rural vote Swing state sweep Political comeback Won frustrated voters Validated coarse rhetoric Outperformed 2020 + US stock market + BTC Non-consecutive Grover Cleveland First convicted felon Oldest elected Prices Crime Migrants Kamala unpopular Biden Consumer sentiment Inflation Young voters Suburban movement Not a huge win Shocked Democrats Women voters Black voters College degree voters Kamala time-short Trump's Continuing dominance of politics Blue wall defeated COVID considered history Tim Walz bad White voters Economy Decisive Popular vote, first Republican in 20 years Religious Trans Deportation Anti-elite Not shocking 2nd time beating woman Not seen as fascist Female president Protests Men White without college degree Direction of country
Trump’s 2024 victory revealed voter shifts that could reshape America’s political landscape CNN 0.75 0.5 0.5 0.5 0.5 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
Election 2024: Trump sweeps all 7 battleground states, CBS News projects CBS 0 0 0 0 0 1 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
Trump wins the White House in a political comeback rooted in appeals to frustrated voters AP 0 0 0 0 0 0 1 0.9 0.5 0.25 0.25 0.25 0.25 0.25 0.25 0.25 0.25 0.25 0.25 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
Donald Trump’s Election Victory, in 6 Charts U.S. News 0.5 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0.75 0.5 0.5 0.4 0.4 0.5 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
2024 US Election: Donald Trump wins Arizona in swing state sweep Le Monde 0 0 0 0 0 1 0.75 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0.4 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
How Trump Won Time 0.5 0 0 0 0 0 0.75 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0.4 0.25 0.25 0.25 0.5 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
US election results: How did Donald Trump break the ‘blue wall’ – again? Al Jazeera 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0.4 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0.5 0.4 0.4 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
Donald Trump wins election in historic comeback after 2020 loss, indictments and bruising campaign CBS 0.25 0 0 0 0 0 1 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0.5 0.5 0 0 0.5 0 0 0.25 0 0 0 0 0 0.5 0 0 0 0 0 0 0.4 0.5 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
Donald Trump wins 2024 US election in historic comeback BBC 0 0 0 0 0 0 1 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0.75 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
Election takeaways: Trump’s decisive victory in a deeply divided nation AP 0.5 0 0 0 0 0 0 0.75 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0.3 0.25 0 0.3 0.5 0 0 0 0.1 0.5 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 1 0.5 0.3 0.3 0.3 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
Donald Trump Returns to Power, Ushering in New Era of Uncertainty NY Times 0.3 0 0 0 0 0 0.75 0.7 0 0 0 0 0.5 0.5 0 0.5 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0.3 0 0 0 0 0 0 0.25 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0.25 0.4 0.25 0 0 0 0 0
The view from countries where Trump's win really matters BBC 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
Donald Trump wins 2nd term in historic return to White House ABC 0 0 0 0 0 0 0.75 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0.6 0 0 0.6 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0.5 0 0 0 0
What Donald Trump’s Win Means for Inflation Time 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 1 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0.5 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
Trump wins Arizona to clinch sweep of seven battleground states The Guardian 0 0 0 0 1 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0.5 0 0 0 0
Donald Trump wins presidential election, defeating Harris to retake White House Washington Post 0.75 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0.4 0.35 0 0.4 0.25 0 0 0.6 0 0 0.7 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0.25 0 0 0 0.75 0.75 0.75
Sum 3.55 0.5 0.5 0.5 0.5 3 5.25 3.1 0.5 0.25 0.25 0.25 1.15 1.1 0.75 1.65 0.9 0.25 1.65 1.6 0.5 2.65 1.6 0.4 0.5 0.4 0.5 1.55 0.25 0.25 0.5 0.5 0.4 0.4 0.65 0.5 1.75 0.5 0.3 0.3 0.8 0 0.25 0.65 0.25 1 0 0.75 0.75 0.75

Takeaways:

Rollinginhisgrave (talk) 11:50, 13 November 2024 (UTC)

With all of those results in mind, I don't see any problems with due weight for the part regarding non-consecutive wins. SNUGGUMS (talk / edits) 13:10, 13 November 2024 (UTC)
I actually think the opposite having now done the review. Could you clarify why including the fact in the lead at all would be giving due weight, when it was not given such weight by RS? Surely the appropriate outcome here given would be to replace it with the characterization as a political comeback? Rollinginhisgrave (talk) 13:28, 13 November 2024 (UTC)
"...replace it with the characterization as a political comeback" I would support this. To me it is significant that he was the second in history to win non-consecutive terms and I find it quite interesting, but from the above it seems like there has been next to no coverage on it, and Wikipedia is supposed to reflect the weight given by WP:RS, so unfortunately I don't see a reason to include this fact in the lead Artem...Talk 21:25, 13 November 2024 (UTC)

By your own admission, Rollinginhisgrave, it was equal emphasis of the achievement with a discussion of Grover Cleveland. That suggests any mention of the non-consecutive wins would be an appropriate place to name the other guy. It's unreasonable to now assert otherwise and the way you did so sounds like a cheap cop-out. SNUGGUMS (talk / edits) 22:41, 13 November 2024 (UTC)

Please assume good faith of me, I have no preferences beyond reflecting the weight of RS, and I 100% agree that the results above suggests any mention of the non-consecutive wins would be an appropriate place to name the other guy; if included in the body, it should be represented as such. Rollinginhisgrave (talk) 22:58, 13 November 2024 (UTC)
In that case, keep a watch for any other pieces that come up covering both men, and those can be assessed for further calculations on weight. It wouldn't surprise me to see more pop up, but only time will tell how many others will talk about their similarities and differences. SNUGGUMS (talk / edits) 01:22, 14 November 2024 (UTC)
SNUGGUMS It wouldn't surprise me either. When/if we get there, we can make those alterations. Rollinginhisgrave (talk) 01:30, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

lead is too long

lead is too long as it contains more than 4 para. Can we make it short ? Astropulse (talk) 14:04, 6 November 2024 (UTC)

this is by editorial design. the reality is that when everything is important, nothing is important. Kcmastrpc (talk) 14:11, 6 November 2024 (UTC)
there are lot of other presidents and prominent article - where we have managed to put most important things in 4 para. 4 para is more than enough and everything else should be in body Astropulse (talk) 14:13, 6 November 2024 (UTC)
if you've a suggestion for something to cut then do so. waving arms and saying 'its too long, make it shorter' is a useless comment. ValarianB (talk) 14:50, 6 November 2024 (UTC)
I cut the last para. someone reverted it. Lets start by removing it Astropulse (talk) 15:08, 6 November 2024 (UTC)
Why that? Why remove that he has won the election and is president elect? How does that accomplish anything? Wehwalt (talk) 15:18, 6 November 2024 (UTC)
@ValarianB Reporting a problem and discussing it on the talk page is far from "useless". Please WP:Assume good faith. If you want another editor to elaborate, a question could be asked without dismissing their contribution as useless. For example, "if you've a suggestion for something to cut then do so. Which part(s) of the lead in particular do you think should be trimmed?" That would be a more constructive rather than dismissive contribution. NICHOLAS NEEDLEHAM (talk) 15:18, 6 November 2024 (UTC)
Valarian did not say that discussing the problem is "useless". They said that not being specific is "useless". This lead clearly needs to be cut severely, and we need specific proposals for how to do it. – Muboshgu (talk) 16:47, 6 November 2024 (UTC)
You agree that the lead is too long. So saying 'its too long, make it shorter' was a correct analysis of the situation and the start of a discussion, not a "useless" comment. Other editors were actively adding to the bloated lead instead of doing what Astropulse did and attempting to discuss the problem on the talk page. Again, if another editor wants an editor to elaborate, that can be requested in a constructive rather than dismissive way. Calling other editors' comments "useless" without reason is not WP:Civil. NICHOLAS NEEDLEHAM (talk) 22:42, 7 November 2024 (UTC)
I agree the lead is overly long. Already 7 paragraphs and he hasn't even been inaugurated for his second term yet. Checking other US presidents' articles, they generally have 4, at a push 5, paragraphs. Overloading the lead for Trump's article is an example of WP:Recentism. NICHOLAS NEEDLEHAM (talk) 15:29, 6 November 2024 (UTC)
I have attempted a bold restructuring of the lead, including some additions and removals of information, in these edits: Special:Diff/1255792425/1255793186. I understand that some elements of it may conflict with prior consensus, but as editors point out above this lead is a severe example of recentism. A lot more material is sure to come with his second term in office, which will expand the lead even further, so we should try to cut it down along the general lines of my edit. What do other editors think? — Goszei (talk) 18:21, 6 November 2024 (UTC)
Yes, the lead is disgracefully bloated. Compare it to our article for Joe Biden, which has a neat and concise lead of four paragraphs. What makes Trump any different? WP:Summary style seems to have been chucked out the window. ~ HAL333 (VOTE!) 18:29, 6 November 2024 (UTC)
With you on summary style, and you're far from the first person to say that (although usually applied to the body). Stick around and help make it so! ―Mandruss ☎ 18:32, 6 November 2024 (UTC)
It feels already much better than before. Cinemaandpolitics (talk) 22:31, 6 November 2024 (UTC)

It seems an attempt was made to shorten the lead and the template was removed, then the content was restored to bloat the lead again but the template was not restored.

The documentation of Template:Lead too long speaks of a 250 to 400 word standard. The lead section of this article is currently over 650 words! Trying to fix the problem of too many paragraphs by combining the excess paragraphs into gigantic paragraphs doesn't address the issue. Trump still hasn't even been inaugurated for his second term but the lead is substantially longer than other presidents. By my count, Trump's lead currently contains almost 1,000 more characters than FDR's lead, a man who was in office for 12 YEARS and is one of the most influential presidents in American history! This is purely recentism, we need to apply the WP:20YEARTEST.

  • For a start, the lead mentions "After a series of business failures in the late 1990s ... He and his [...] six business bankruptcies." Are these separate events, or were some the bankruptcies during the 1990s? Couldn't these lines be combined in some way? NICHOLAS NEEDLEHAM (talk) 23:05, 7 November 2024 (UTC)
There are two sentences in the lead in particular which are not "protected" by standing consensus, and which editors have expressed an interest in cutting in various threads on this talk page:
  • "He and his businesses have been involved in more than 4,000 legal actions, including six business bankruptcies."
  • "The Mueller investigation later determined that Russia interfered in the 2016 election to help Trump."
There is also room for trimming in other areas (why say "racially charged" when it is just a soft euphemism for "racist", for instance), though I have seen some editors reverting these efforts for unknown reasons. — Goszei (talk) 00:17, 8 November 2024 (UTC)
I agree that those two are the two phrases that feels most out of place on lead. But to remove them there is surelly a need for two separates RfC. I also have a feeling the Russian interference will be preserved by an RfC, but it is interesting to see motivations for it. I guess that for american politics that is a major fact.
I also agree on the racist part. Cinemaandpolitics (talk) 13:45, 8 November 2024 (UTC)
To be even more clear, I find the paragraph about his presidency (4th) and about his trials and attempt to overturn (5th) satysfying.
The issues are on second paragraph (not making a clear connection between his business empire and his shift to politic, or a misleading connection with his business legal actions) and on third paragraph (being extremelly vague and indirect to why he won) Cinemaandpolitics (talk) 13:56, 8 November 2024 (UTC)
Agreed. The lead's scope in general still hasn't adjusted to the election results.
Consensus on this talk page seems to be that he was a failed, nepotistic businessman turned reality TV host, who won the 2016 election by fluke and Russian hacking. Then he became a failed insurrectionist in 2020 and found guilty of various crimes, generally an unelectable madman. Whether that's a right or wrong summary, the lead should adjust to the new development that he was elected for a second term as president. Most prior events become less leadworthy in the face of this expanding scope.
@Goszei Has there been a specific reason in edit summaries as to why we need repetition of the business failures in the second paragraph? NICHOLAS NEEDLEHAM (talk) 11:23, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

Russia was a hoax

Mueller’s results found nothing so that part is 100% INACCURATE. 71.205.198.48 (talk) 02:42, 12 November 2024 (UTC)

Could you be more specific in what you're referring to / proposing?
...To me, this makes no sense Artem...Talk 02:52, 12 November 2024 (UTC)
In our biographical article on Trump, we spend a lot of space on possible collusion by Trump's 2016 campaign with Russia interference, although Mueller Report, vol. I, p. 173: "Ultimately, the investigation did not establish that the Campaign coordinated or conspired with the Russian government in its election-interference activities." Bob K31416 (talk) 07:30, 12 November 2024 (UTC)
Regarding a lot of space, see the section Investigations. Also, I looked in the subsection Mueller Investigation and I couldn't find any mention of the ultimate result mentioned in my above message. Bob K31416 (talk) 15:20, 12 November 2024 (UTC)
Do we say there was collusion? Slatersteven (talk) 15:27, 12 November 2024 (UTC)
No, but the report not finding any evidence of collusion resulted in it being a political debacle for the Democrats, basically vindicated Trump's charges of a "Russiagate witchhunt", and embarrassed the news media (notably the NYT, who pumped the story day after day for years in a manner which is honestly comparable to the false stories about alleged WMDs before the Iraq War). What this article says is correct, but these circumstances should make us rethink its mention within the lead. — Goszei (talk) 01:09, 13 November 2024 (UTC)
Another sensible point. The landscape has shifted beneath our feet here, and we haven't been responsive to the latest RS. A lot of the Russia stuff is legacy text from a time when RS were much more comfortable speculating about a link between Trump and the Kremlin. That's now largely stopped as more information has come out. Riposte97 (talk) 10:50, 14 November 2024 (UTC)
I also agree on this. The lead is too long, and ultimately the Russia-Muller angle petered out. Even if something was regularly on the news at the time, it probably shouldn't be in the lead if it had little lasting significance. NICHOLAS NEEDLEHAM (talk) 11:30, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

Proposed consensus #68 - Article zero growth

Withdrawn by the OP. Eligible for manual archival after this time tomorrow. ―Mandruss ☎ 14:56, 27 November 2024 (UTC)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Please, anyone, edit this text to your liking:

Editors who wish to add to this article will please remove an equal amount of text and/or citations (or identify what should be removed to make room). First reported in 2017, this article is perennially oversized, see WP:SIZE. This article is precariously close to Wikipedia's template limit when "some references and templates may not render properly", see WP:PEIS.

  • Oppose As we do not do tit for tat content edits. Moreover, this might well be sued as it can used to remove well-cited content on the grounds of "well I did add 15 lines of "but Trump is the president, suck it up losers. NO we should not take this approach, remove content, but not ass a precursor to adding it. If the article is too big, it is too big. Slatersteven (talk) 17:19, 26 November 2024 (UTC)
  • Oppose Will encourage legalistic reversions of good edits. One alternative is to further encourage editors add material to sub-articles before adding here (see Wikipedia:Main article fixation). Some options to achieve this include:
  1. Asking editors move material to subpage after they add it.
  2. If an editor is repeatedly engaging in this behaviour, gently flag it with them as disruptive.
  3. Edit notice.
Rollinginhisgrave (talk) 00:35, 27 November 2024 (UTC)
  • Oppose as this is the shining example of a poorly thought-out idea. Content to add should be judged on quality, not on some silly zero-sum game of byte-counting. Zaathras (talk) 00:52, 27 November 2024 (UTC)
  • Oppose. It's correct that the article has been perennially oversized. Until very recently, we have not had multiple competent editors committed to article reduction and apparently prepared to stick around until that goal has been reached. To the contrary, we have had multiple competent editors saying article size was not a significant issue. Never mind the merits or lack thereof, this just isn't necessary. ―Mandruss ☎ 14:39, 27 November 2024 (UTC)

Mandruss thank you. We can close this WP:SNOW though the response reminds me of climate change denialism. Gotta sell all those SUVs. -SusanLesch (talk) 14:54, 27 November 2024 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Latter half of the opening paragraph

Does anybody have a formal proposal for the second half of the opening paragraph? That's all the info relating to the 2024 election results? It's been ten days & counting, so we need a stable version in place, between now & the inauguration day. PS - For goodness sake, don't add "current" or "currently" before (if included) "president-elect", as it's a useless descriptive. GoodDay (talk) 04:50, 15 November 2024 (UTC)

I wholeheartedly support forming a consensus to put an end to all the back-and-forth (stabilize). Since it would be a temporary consensus as you say, it wouldn't need a consensus list item, just an archived discussion (e.g., this one) that we could point to in a DO NOT CHANGE hidden comment. No opinion on content. ―Mandruss ☎ 06:22, 15 November 2024 (UTC)

Proposal to rename Racial views of Donald Trump

There is currently a proposal to rename Racial views of Trump at § Changing the title. Editors here are invited to participate: this will impact the section heading "Racial views" in this article per summary style Rollinginhisgrave (talk) 20:22, 15 November 2024 (UTC)

Another reverted edit

@Zaathras My edit was not whitewashing. It clarifies the view of the source, that "research suggests Trump's rhetoric may have caused an increased incidence of hate crimes": a correlation, while not the opinion of the experts quoted in the source that it necessarily involves causation. As concerns the other edit, the "clunky needless wording" is a necessary detail. As it is now, it sounds like its saying that Trump dictated the letter to some secretary or whatnot, without the doctor present. In reality, he dictated it to the doctor, who told him what he couldn't put in it. Anotherperson123 (talk) 22:39, 17 October 2024 (UTC)

@Zaathras Anotherperson123 (talk) 01:14, 22 October 2024 (UTC)
I disagree with @Zaathras’ assertion that your edit is whitewashing, but your edit is written in an argumentative matter. The previous statement states that the Trump comments highlighted were widely criticized, a plain true/false statement. Your “this is despite” implies your addition of text is a rebuttal to the general consensus. It is far from neutral and needs improvement. There should be more discussion on whether Trump’s implied clarification made soon after the comments in question as well. Do NOT edit until there is consensus. Hope this is helpful Slothwizard (talk) 02:04, 22 October 2024 (UTC)
You appear to be confusing two reverts. This diff is the revert I'm talking about in this talk page section: https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Donald_Trump&diff=1251380654&oldid=1251370072. The edit to the section about the allegations of white supremacy (which was also reverted) is discussed in Talk:Donald_Trump#reverted edit. Anotherperson123 (talk) 03:40, 22 October 2024 (UTC)
My bad. Your addition of Bornstein clarifying what he could not add was grammatically incorrect and unnecessary. Your second edit with adding “may” was not whitewashing; unfortunately the citations are not related to the claim, so I am not sure why that sentence is there in the first place. New sources or remove sentence; unless someone clarifies to me about this section. No editing until more discussion is made, would like to hear more opinions. Slothwizard (talk) 03:53, 22 October 2024 (UTC)
(Do we need to salute and shout "Sir, yes, sir!"?, or am I misreading telegram style?) Assuming that the edits in question are this and this one, reverted here, I agree with the revert. Bornstein: clunky & needless. Trump rhetoric verified by the AP and WaPo cites: "suggests" says that the rhetoric may be the cause. If the sentence had read that "research said that Trump's rhetoric caused ...", we'd have to say "may have caused". Space4Time3Continuum2x🖖 18:00, 22 October 2024 (UTC)
The detail is a necessary detail, citing what I have said above, but improvements to the grammar of the phrase can be made. Anotherperson123 (talk) 23:58, 22 October 2024 (UTC)
I assume the repetition of Bornstein's name is what you are referring to when you say "clunky". If it's the repetition of his name then which of these two do you think work?
"to him while Bornstein said what couldn't be put in it"
"to him while Bornstein informed him what couldn't be put in it" Anotherperson123 (talk) 01:52, 30 October 2024 (UTC)
Thoughts? Anotherperson123 (talk) 16:52, 5 November 2024 (UTC)
@Space4Time3Continuum2x @Slothwizard @Zaathras Anotherperson123 (talk) 19:47, 13 November 2024 (UTC)
I haven't changed my mind. None of the proposed changes is an improvement. Space4Time3Continuum2x🖖 19:58, 13 November 2024 (UTC)
Do you have any thoughts on the proposed ways to improve the problems with the proposed edit?Anotherperson123 (talk) 02:30, 14 November 2024 (UTC)
My thoughts are that this happened a month ago and no one really cares. Your suggested edit did not gain consensus so, drop it and move on. Zaathras (talk) 03:30, 16 November 2024 (UTC)
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