Talk:3D Realms

ScubaVenture

I removed this as it's not an Apogee game. George Broussard did write the game while in the employ of Apogee, but it was never intended to be an Apogee title. It was written and published by Softdisk. The reason for this was that they'd let id Software out of their contract with them so they could do games for Apogee instead.

I should know, I work here at Apogee - this is Joe Siegler, webmaster for the company.  :) —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Dopefish (talk • contribs) 9 February 2006.

Grammer

Sorry Teklund for my wording, i'm dyslexic and tend to write very convolutedly, however I did include new information with my contribution such as;

• Emphaisisng Apogee's role in the wide spread adoption of Shareware.
• The small list of large publishers that quickly adopted the model and for the most part utitlised the same BBS.
• Inclusion of Software Creations BBS, a staple of Apogee for many years, and the primary method of distrubution used by many people in the day (before Shareware CD's).
• I also wanted to remove the term "Spin-off" when describing Apogees two subsidiaries, 3D Realmas and Pinball Wizard.... it was rather unencyclopedic.
• Include an introduction that says immediately what they are known for popularising Shareware, Wolf3D, Keen, Nukem and a quick note they operate as 3D Realms.

Now I have spent about 2 hours going over my new new alterations to make it seem less convoluted. Your welcome to revert my alterations as long as you include the above 5 points yourself. Oh btw, as for my headings, Shareware and Background, you can remove them if you want.. I just felt that their was two logical sections that may at a later date be expanded. But, by all means remove them, just keep the facts.

Thanks, im flexible though, if you dont like any/all of my 5 points we can discuss it :). - UnlimitedAccess 9 July 2005 15:20 (UTC)

Sorry for being ignorant. The article is much clearer now with the addition of headings and a better introduction, and I agree with all five of your points above. I did remove id Software from the list of shareware distibutors similar to Apogee since as far as I know they distributed most of their games via Apogee... but I don't know much about that, so I might as well be wrong. So if I'm wrong, you may want to put that back in. Teklund 9 July 2005 18:10 (UTC)

Nice work their! About the id/Apogee thing their earlier stuff like Wolf3D was released as an Apogee title, but their later titles like Doom were released under the id software name.. I will stick it back in, and see how it goes. Thanks again. - UnlimitedAccess 9 July 2005 18:19 (UTC)

Quiz games

Are The Computer Quiz, The Astronomy Quiz and The IBM BASIC Quiz also Apogee games? Or are those Softdisk games / Scott Miller games? 81.70.123.72 11:41, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

MobyGames says they are all Softdisk games. ^[1][2][3] — Frecklefoot | Talk 14:39, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

Mobygames is wrong. What a shock. Star Trek Trivia was an Apogee game. Star Trek: TNG Trivia was originally a Micro/FX game (George's company before Apogee), and when he joined Apogee, it became an Apogee game, and then Paramount stepped in and stopped both. Dopefish 16:30, 15 August 2006 (UTC) (Joe Siegler, Apogee/3DR).

I'm talking about The Computer Quiz, The Astronomy Quiz and the IBM BASIC Quiz, not the Star Trek trivia games. 81.70.123.72 10:05, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

Well, as I said, MobyGames, the best reference I have, say they are all SoftDisk games. If it is wrong, so be it. You can also try Home of the Underdogs if you like. — Frecklefoot | Talk 14:23, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

OK, I'm a doofus. You did say the pre-Apogee stuff. Dopefish 01:44, 18 August 2006 (UTC)  :)

Vandals

Bleh, sorry for the vandalism earlier. I'm kind of the caretaker of the dorm IP address and some people think it's funny to edit entries for fun and get everyone banned from contributing. Shadowrun 05:06, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

Merge Apogee Software into this page

Why do we need two different pages for the same company just because they changed their name? The Apogee Software page should be merged into this one as soon as possible. -- Grandpafootsoldier 02:15, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

Fully agreed. The current state is very confusing. --seifip 14:17, 24 December 2006 (UTC)

Ok, merged. Sega381 16:14, 24 December 2006 (UTC)

I agree with the merge but it is a little more compelx because Apogee Software is the parent company which owns the labels, Pinball Wizard, 3D Realms and perhaps others. 3D Realms just became the dominant label and all others fell away including the parent company's brand Appogee. - UnlimitedAccess 22:48, 28 January 2007 (UTC)

I've been thinking about it, and though the merge is ok, probably the article should be called Apogee Software, as it is the real company name still, even though it may be known by other names...Sega381 00:12, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

I agree, this should be entitled Apogee Software, since that is the company's legal name. Rhindle The Red 01:18, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

So, should it be reversed? I say yes. Hbdragon88 05:14, 31 March 2007 (UTC)

Ok, but not reverse the merge, but change the name to Apogee Software. As everybody seems to be for it, I'll do it. Only problem is, Apogee Software already exists as a redirect... should I copy and paste there? Sega381 05:56, 31 March 2007 (UTC)

Duke Nukem: Endangered Species Hunter?

I'm unsure if the above game exists, as clicking on the link links to a game called Vivisector, which is by another company. Can anyone explain this? Ultim87 02:47, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

Read the Apogee FAQ for more info:[4] Calvero2 09:53, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

max payne movie

in the "Current state and products" we should mention th max payne movie heres a link to some info about it http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0467197/ —Preceding unsigned comment added by Pauldonald86 (talk • contribs) 18:53, 25 May 2008 (UTC)

apogee referal

I'm not sure how to change it, but Apogee should no longer refer to 3d realms: http://www.totalvideogames.com/news/Apogee_Returns_With_Duke_Nukem_Trilogy_13478_7697_0.htm

Happyness! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.164.12.77 (talk) 17:14, 14 July 2008 (UTC)

Duke Nukem Trilogy

It turns out that there are 3 new games coming to PSP and DS. Critical Mass, Chain Reaction, and Proving Grounds are the names all done by Deep Silver and Apogee. I didn't know where else to go but somebody should start these pages. Here's a link http://ds.ign.com/articles/890/890668p1.html Zabbethx (talk) 17:11, 16 July 2008 (UTC)

Actually those games are NOT by 3D Realms, they are done by this new company Apogee Software, LLC which is unrelated to 3D Realms/Apogee Software, Ltd. Similarly Prey 2 and Earth No More have been transferred over to Radar Group and are no longer 3D Realms games and therefore shouldn't be on this list. Incarnate never was a 3D Realms game as it has been a Radar Group game from its conception and therefore shouldn't be on the list of games either, Radar Group also isn't related to 3D Realms(or the new Apogee Software) Kristian Joensen (talk) 12:07, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

We need a page on the new Apogee company, to start putting this info and clear up the confusions...--Sega381 (talk) 12:42, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

Requested move

The following discussion is an archived discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the proposal was no move. JPG-GR (talk) 05:38, 4 September 2008 (UTC)

3D Realms → Apogee Software — This is the official name of the company and new games will once again be published under this name. — MrKIA11 (talk) 23:06, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

Survey

Feel free to state your position on the renaming proposal by beginning a new line in this section with *'''Support''' or *'''Oppose''', then sign your comment with ~~~~. Since polling is not a substitute for discussion, please explain your reasons, taking into account Wikipedia's naming conventions.

• Oppose --Sega381 (talk) 04:43, 30 August 2008 (UTC)

Discussion

Any additional comments:

Be careful, the company that will publish new games is ANOTHER company, Apogee Software LLC, not Apogee Software Inc, which will be just licensing the name from the original Apogee... so in fact, the Apogee company in the article will only continue to publish games under 3D Realms (it's very confusing). Though I agree that the official name is Apogee Software, in practice the name they use right now and will continue to use is 3D Realms, so it actually makes sense retaining that name (as per WP:Naming#Use_the_most_easily_recognized_name). This is not a strong oppose though (I used to support the idea), so if someone has better arguments to support it... --Sega381 (talk) 04:43, 30 August 2008 (UTC)

So do you think there should be 2 separate pages for the companies? MrKIA11 (talk) 17:41, 30 August 2008 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Apogee Software LLC vs Apogee Software Ltd (3D Realms)

(This is a continuation of the discussion in the move proposal above) Be careful, the company that will publish new games is ANOTHER company, Apogee Software LLC, not Apogee Software Ltd, which will be just licensing the name from the original Apogee... so in fact, the Apogee company in the article will only continue to publish games under 3D Realms (it's very confusing). Though I agree that the official name is Apogee Software, in practice the name they use right now and will continue to use is 3D Realms, so it actually makes sense retaining that name (as per WP:Naming#Use_the_most_easily_recognized_name). This is not a strong oppose though (I used to support the idea), so if someone has better arguments to support it... --Sega381 (talk) 04:43, 30 August 2008 (UTC)

So do you think there should be 2 separate pages for the companies? MrKIA11 (talk) 17:41, 30 August 2008 (UTC)

Yes, I think that is the best thing to do. Even though the new company, Apogee Software LLC, it's making it appear as it is the same old Apogee Software Ltd for marketing reasons (using the same name, logo, talking about previous games as if they were its own, etc), in fact it is a new company. So, I think there should be a new page for Apogee Software LLC, which tries to clearly state its relationship with Apogee Software Ltd (3D Realms), and which contains further info about its new games. --Sega381 (talk) 11:37, 4 September 2008 (UTC)

Yeah, there should be a seperate Apogee Software, LLC page. Also this article says "In July 2008, however, they announced that the brand Apogee Software will be revived with new games on the mobile platform, but licensed to an external company, Apogee Software, LLC." But from the Apogee Software, llc website: "Apogee publishes original content for retail distribution of games for the PC and next generation consoles and handhelds."(http://www.apogeesoftware.com/company.php) On the one hand there is no mention of mobile games, but I assume the article means handheld games(There IS a difference between mobile phones and handheld consoles) so that is just a minor thing. However that quote mentions that they are also a PC and next-gen console publisher so they are not "mobile"(or handheld) only. 66.146.162.106 (talk) 07:30, 22 November 2008 (UTC)

Id Software

Why did Id software say that Apogee would no longer publish their games? Enco1984 (talk) 06:26, 4 March 2009 (UTC)

Don't know. One can only guess that they got a better deal elsewhere. — Frecklefσσt | Talk 15:01, 4 March 2009 (UTC)

Background

"Although in its earliest stages, Doom was still an Apogee title."

I don't doubt the factual accuracy of this statement, but a source here would be informative. The earliest version of DOOM I've seen was an early test demo "alpha" [5]. I don't recall any reference to Apogee here, or any mention of this in David Kushner's book MoD, but I could be mistaken.

Spazzmatic (talk) 01:12, 20 March 2009 (UTC)

According to the book masters of doom Apogee wasn't doing a good job selling there games. They didn't have enough people manning the phones. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.216.124.170 (talk) 22:56, 8 May 2009 (UTC)

Doom was never an Apogee title, in fact, id did not even start work on Doom until after they moved into Suite 666 (post-Apogee). MoD (Pg. 124) 68.193.255.54 (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 20:28, 27 June 2009 (UTC).

Heads up...

There's word that 3D Realms may have been shut down, but its only as best-guess speculation (no one in 3D realms has confirmed). [6] Please watch for vandals and false info. --MASEM (t) 00:34, 7 May 2009 (UTC)

Shacknews is a pretty reliable source but until there's confirmation this shouldn't hit the main page. BaShildy (talk) 00:39, 7 May 2009 (UTC)

Gamasutra has it now too [7] but I'd really like a stronger confirmation. --MASEM (t) 00:45, 7 May 2009 (UTC)

Now] there is better confirmation (shacknews updated with a company statement. --MASEM (t) 00:52, 7 May 2009 (UTC)

Now there's a BBC News article as well. Loganberry (Talk) 16:16, 7 May 2009 (UTC)

Development Hell

I love how this is considered an encyclopedic term. Even if it is worthy of a wiki, it's hardly legitimate in use in an encyclopedia; it just sounds too much like insider-industry slang. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.133.61.34 (talk) 04:44, 8 May 2009 (UTC)

All the forums are locked on the 3DR page, it looks like it's all over. Unless of course this is a big publicity stunt, although a company member called Joe Siegler said: "It's not a marketing thing. It's true. I have nothing further to say at this time." Stuffs in the BBC article. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.216.124.170 (talk) 22:59, 8 May 2009 (UTC)

3d Realms are Defunct

Tell me if I'm wrong, but I do belive that 3d Realms are defunct. Am I wrong? mcjakeqcool Mcjakeqcool (talk) 18:50, 10 May 2009 (UTC)

It seems so, and the article has already been modified to reflect that. However, there hasn't been yet an official statement explaining the exact status and reasons for the closing of the company. --Sega381 (talk) 01:12, 11 May 2009 (UTC)

Cheers. That infomation has been helpful. mcjakeqcool Mcjakeqcool (talk) 18:35, 11 May 2009 (UTC)

I can only imagine they were shut down because Take Two Interactive didn't want to give them anymore money for a game (Duke Nukem: Forever) that has been in development for 12 years. I know it's hearsay, but you can bet that is the case. Minnesota cold (talk) 01:14, 12 May 2009 (UTC)

Thankyou again, that infomation has been helpful aswell. mcjakeqcool Mcjakeqcool (talk) 14:32, 12 May 2009 (UTC)

It's almost assuredly a publicity stunt given that information has surfaced showing that a "save Duke Nukem" petition website was registered the day before 3D Realms was speculated to be shutting down. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.126.175.234 (talk) 15:31, 12 May 2009 (UTC)

So will Duke Nukem Forever see the light of day? Or have I got the wrong end of the stick? mcjakeqcool Mcjakeqcool (talk) 16:37, 12 May 2009 (UTC)

Given the popularity of the game, it might get picked up by another company. It's Take Two's decision since they own the publishing rights. The problem 3D Realms had was they kept changing game engines for one they liked better. Essentially, it's like an artist scraps an entire drawing because they don't like the paper it's being drawn on, so they have to start over from scratch. As for the petition, I wouldn't read too much into that. I am not an insider, but I am sure a 3D Realms (former) employee started it when they got word of the closure. It's the same reason why a video of gameplay was just released on the net. It's not like they had anything else to lose. Minnesota cold (talk) 22:38, 12 May 2009 (UTC)

Again, I must give my thanks for that infomation, as it has been very helpful. mcajakeqcool Mcjakeqcool (talk) 15:18, 13 May 2009 (UTC)

Does anyone know exactly how defunct 3D Realms is? As far as I know they no longer have employees (except management), but have they filed bankruptcy? If not, I presume 3D Realms still exists as a company in possession of assets (such as DNF) they could choose to sell or not to sell. Take Two does not own the game, they just have a deal to publish it. – Lakefall (talk) 16:42, 14 May 2009 (UTC)

I dunno, I'll google this one and then see if I can give ya a answer. mcjakeqcool Mcjakeqcool (talk) 14:45, 15 May 2009 (UTC)

Well, now Take Two is suing 3D Realms. – Lakefall (talk) 15:09, 15 May 2009 (UTC)

How would 3D Realms be able to pay for being sued by Take Two if they have gone bust? mcjakeqcool Mcjakeqcool (talk) 11:30, 16 May 2009 (UTC)

I would guess Take Two hopes they can't and will just hand over the Duke Nukem IP (source code and rights to future games and other DN merchandise) to them instead. It seems unlikely that George Broussard will settle that easily though. – Lakefall (talk) 13:20, 16 May 2009 (UTC)

Lakefall, may I thank you, as that infomation has been helpful. mcjakeqcool Mcjakeqcool (talk) 14:05, 18 May 2009 (UTC)

Bold faced lie removed

I removed the bold faced lie that 3D Realms is not operating from the beginning of the article. A company that will release its next game next week and has upwards of 12 projects in the works is most certainly operating Kristian Joensen (talk) 21:52, 15 June 2010 (UTC)

Duke3D XBLA and DNMP XBLA are internal projects

Both of the XBLA titles should go on the list of titles developed since they were done internally as can be seen by their credits: [8] and [9] This is also verified by their MS homepages:

[10] and [11]

Hence I will be moving them to that section 88.85.52.191 (talk) 14:21, 13 August 2010 (UTC)

I will also be adding the external projects released since Prey, not sure if the Mac and Linux ports of Prey belong separately on the list or not so for now I will not be adding them, otherwise I will be adding all the non-freeware releases on this list since 2006: [12] the info on Apogee Software publishing and Mobila Interactive developing the ROTT Iphone port comes from the Apogee Software webpage, the rest is from mobygames. 88.85.52.191 (talk) 14:42, 13 August 2010 (UTC)

Source for Duke3D for Android, DNF DLC and Shadow Warrior iOS

DNF DLC and Duke3D Android are mentioned here: [13]

Machineworks Northwest is mentioned as the publisher(and developer?) of Duke3D for Android here: [14]

Sources for Shadow Warrior iOS(These could also be used to update the Shadow Warrior article): [15], [16]

3D Realms have also signed up with GoG.com, initially releasing Shadow Warrior and Terminal Velocity: [17]

Then following that up with releasing Duke Nukem 1 and 2: [18] Notice that the previous 3DR games released on GoG were put there by the new Apogee. Also notice that Shadow Warrior on GoG was published by Devolver Digital: [19]

This is a somewhat notable fact but I don't think there is any reliable source about that in it self, but this article could merely note it as a fact and the Shadow Warrior article could be updated with that info. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.85.52.191 (talk) 19:14, 2 January 2013 (UTC)

3D Realms' current ownership status

I put this here because there has been some confusion over 3D Realms' ownership structure. A few years back Danish company SDN Invest ApS acquired 3D Realms. This same company had invested in the development studio Interceptor Entertainment and owned as far as I can remember about 20% of that company. SDN Invest was owned 100% by Mike Secher Dalsgaard Nielsen. Later he transferred his 3D Realms shares to another company wholly owned by him, MDN Holding ApS. Inteceptor meanwhile was voluntarily liquidated and a new development studio Slipgate Studios took over its development of the game Rad Rodgers. The Rad Rodgers IP was later sold to THQ Nordic. Slipgate Studios ApS is wholly owned by Slipgate Holding ApS itself in turn wholly owned by Kent Hedegaard Christoffersen. Public records reflect that on March 30, 2018 3D Realms ownership was changed such that it still remains a subsidiary of MDN Holding ApS but it is no longer wholly owned by that company, now that company owns "66,67-89,99%" of 3D Realms and Slipgate Studios owns "20-24,99%". That fact is reflected in the ownership tab here:

That source in turn lists "Mike Secher Dalsgaard Nielsen" as a beneficial owner, on account of owning 100% of MDN Holding ApS, of 80% of 3D Realms.

That Mike Secher Dalsgaard Nielsen owns 100% of MDN Holding ApS can be seen on the ownership tab here:

That Kent Hedegaard Christoffersen owns 100% of Slipgate Holdings ApS is reflected on the ownership tab here:

That Slipgate Holdings ApS(and thereby indirectly Kent Hedegaard Christoffersen) owns 100% of Slipgate Studios is reflected on the ownership tab here:

3D Realms Entertainment ApS' latest financials available here say, on the last page, that it owns 95% of Apogee Software, Ltd, d/b/a 3D Realms and 100% of Action Entertainment, Inc and that Action Entertainment Inc owns the remaining 5% of Apogee Software, Ltd, d/b/a 3D Realms:

Mike Secher Dalsgaard Nielsen' position as CEO & President of 3D Realms can be verified here: (This can incidentally also be used as a source for the infobox field on the number of 3D Realms employees,

An entity search here for "Action Entertainment" and choosing the last entry and then choosing "public information report" reveals that Mike Nielsen is the "President" and "Director" of that company:

Sources for THQ Nordic acquiring the Rad Rodgers IP can be found here: and

On a completely different note, doesn't this article give undue weight to lawsuits involving 3D Realms? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.55.50.10 (talk) 14:50, 2 January 2019 (UTC)

References

Screwed Up Apogee

You do realize that there are two companies called Apogee Software with the SAME PURPOSE, right? One's 3D Realms, and the other is licensed by 3D Realms and called Apogee. How does that happen?

2600:1702:25A0:B070:603C:7B53:C68C:BB75 (talk) 02:30, 17 February 2020 (UTC)

Requested changes

Hi all! On behalf of Scott Miller, I'd like to propose some updates to this article (and other 3D Realms-adjacent articles, like List of 3D Realms games). There are some inaccuracies that Miller noticed, and I've offered to bring them to the attention of the community. Since I've been in direct contact with Miller and he's offered to pay, this puts me in COI territory so I'm posting here rather than making the changes myself.

Here's the gist of it: Wikipedia is currently treating two companies called 3D Realms as a single entity. Mike Nielsen only acquired the rights to the brand in 2014. The rights to the existing IP stayed with Apogee, which in 2021 was relaunched as Apogee Entertainment. Nielsen clarifies in this Rock, Paper, Shotgun interview that he specifically purchased the 3D Realms brand and Apogee remained a separate entity. Miller also states in this GamesIndustry.biz article that the current 3D Realms is a separate company.

My suggestion would be to handle this like we handle Telltale Games: like how Telltale Games covers the original company and Telltale Games (2018–present) covers the new one, 3D Realms covers the original company while 3D Realms (2014–present) covers the new one. List of 3D Realms games would need to be updated to reflect this, as would the links in articles for games like Bombshell and Ion Fury. JOEBRO⁶⁴ 15:37, 12 August 2023 (UTC)

Seeking clarification on some of those statements, as they could be somewhat misleading:

• "Miller also states ... that the current 3D Realms is a separate company." – This is technically right: 3D Realms Entertainment ApS is the current entity. Obviously, it needed a Danish one when Denmark became its domicile. However, the original 3D Realms entity (Apogee Software, Ltd.) is wholly owned by the new 3D Realms entity; 95% directly and 5% through Action Entertainment, Inc., which it owns entirely.[20]. Miller remained with that company until around 2020, credited in Ghostrunner as "Chief Creative Officer".
• "Mike Nielsen only acquired the rights to the brand in 2014. The rights to the existing IP stayed with Apogee ... Nielsen clarifies in this Rock, Paper, Shotgun interview" – This is not entirely true. Per above, Nielsen bought Apogee Software, Ltd. whole. In the interview with RPS, he said: "To clear that up, we have not purchased Apogee Software LLC. The confusion arises because 3D Realms, the legal entity of 3D Realms, is actually still called Apogee Software Limited.", which is not what you claim he said because we know that "Apogee Software LLC" was the company Terry Nagy established after he bought the trademark from Apogee Software, Ltd./3D Realms in 2008. Per Polygon: "Teenage friend Terry Nagy, the longtime colleague of Broussard and Miller, had purchased the rights to the Apogee name in 2008, shortly before the company filed for bankruptcy, along with the rights to Rise of the Triad and a handful of other games. The Apogee that exists today is Apogee Software, LLC, not to be confused with the original company, Apogee Software, Ltd."[21]
• "... Apogee, which in 2021 was relaunched as Apogee Entertainment." – The Apogee that was relaunched here was Apogee Software, LLC; according to Game Developer, this happened only after Nagy brought Miller into the company.[22] I am aware that the two Apogee Softwares are often confused (cf. above discussions), but sources are rather clear that they were, legally and functionally, separate companies and co-existed with different managements for at least five years before Miller sold off his and a further six/seven until Miller switched.

Now regarding the suggested action itself: Yes, I think a split between new and old 3D Realms could be done in theory, but how do reliable sources treat the matter? Also, why would 2014 be the cutoff point if Miller remained at the company post-sale? Companies being sold is quite common and rarely warrants a new article. Furthermore, 3D Realms Entertainment ApS was only incorporated in May 2015.[23] IceWelder [✉] 17:31, 12 August 2023 (UTC)

IceWelder, thanks for the replies. I'm not terribly well-versed in Apogee/3D Realms' history and I already knew it was complicated before taking on this, so those are probably mistakes on my part. I can ask Miller for some clarification, as he indicated he's willing to release relevant documentation to clear up any confusion. As for the article title, I just chose "2014-present" because that's when the acquisition took place, wasn't aware it was incorporated in 2015. I'll do some more digging once I get the chance later today. JOEBRO⁶⁴ 19:33, 12 August 2023 (UTC)

I think we can all agree that the current article isn't as clear as it could be about when it's talking about Apogee Ltd vs. Apogee LLC, so no matter what that should get cleared up. It's definitely messy having two companies with the same name, one of which licensed bits from the other and which shared employees (Miller, at minimum). I know I need to go check that nothing from Apogee Entertainment leaked into List of 3D Realms games due to naming confusion! If we were going to split it into two articles, I'd do it like we have now: article 1 = Apogee Software Ltd./3D Realms/Apogee Software ApS, and article 2 = Apogee Software LLC/Apogee Entertainment, and I'd name them as they are, article 1 = 3D Realms (since that's the brand name commonly used) and article 2 = Apogee Entertainment. I appreciate the argument that the "modern" 3D Realms isn't the same thing as the original, but it is the same actually, since the modern company bought the original entirely and continued using the brand name. --PresN 03:03, 13 August 2023 (UTC)

I've asked Miller for clarification on what became of Apogee Software Ltd. and I'm just waiting on a response. He expressed to me that his primary concern is just that we're not distinguishing the old 3D Realms (Apogee) from the new 3D Realms well, which is muddying the history and making it unclear who made what. Splitting was just a suggestion to make the distinction clearer—we can probably do something like the Sonic Team/Sonic Team USA case at Sonic Team where we distinguish via two sections. I'd say the first section could be called "Apogee Software" and cover "Background", "The Apogee Model", and "3D Realms", and the second could be called "3D Realms Entertainment" and cover "New ownership" and "Acquisition by Embracer Group".

As for sources, I found two good sources (Bit-Tech and Eurogamer) referring to the Nielsen-owned 3D Realms as a new/relaunched company. JOEBRO⁶⁴ 19:49, 14 August 2023 (UTC)

I think nobody is denying that the current and former 3D Realms are different, but only in the same way that 3D Realms was no longer the same after closing up shop in 2009, safe only for Miller still being on board. This was seemingly a non-issue while Miller was still with the Danish company and until the 3D Realms back catalog was sold to Apogee Entertainment. Arguing that no one from the current 3D Realms worked on the older games might be technically right, but you could say the same about Rockstar North, id Software, and especially Nintendo. Yet, in those cases we also recognize a continuous business. Companies tend to change over time, so we are somewhat discussing the Ship of Theseus. IceWelder [✉] 21:56, 14 August 2023 (UTC)

Yeah, in my conversations with Miller, it seems that he cares about the distinction now because he's no longer involved with the Danish company. What he's said to me is pretty similar to what he wrote in this this 2022 blog post. I think we could help resolve this by adding it as an attributed opinion, something across the lines of:

In 2022, Miller publicly distanced himself from the Embracer-owned 3D Realms. He said that "3D Realms no longer has any link to the past, other than in name only" because he was no longer there to help design and fund games.

Regardless, there definitely is a distinction between Apogee Software Ltd. (the original entity, which went out of business in 2009 and was acquired in 2014) and 3D Realms Entertainment ApS (the new entity, incorporated in 2015 after the acquisition) that isn't clear currently. We do have the sources to clarify this, so I don't see why we shouldn't! Something across the lines of:

Following the acquisition, 3D Realms was relaunched in October 2014, and incorporated as 3D Realms Entertainment ApS in 2015.

could work. Add in that Miller and Nagy reacquired the Apogee name from 3D Realms in 2021 (Nagy didn't acquire the Apogee name in 2008 as the article says, he merely had the license to use it; Miller mentions in GamesIndustry.biz and his blog post that he and Nagy got the rights back in 2021) and I think we'll be good.

(As an aside, this article also needs a {{More citations needed}} tag—there are massive swaths of text that are unsourced.)

JOEBRO⁶⁴ 22:38, 14 August 2023 (UTC)

Alright, here's a clear list of changes based on my now-complete research. I apologize for not formatting it like this earlier, IceWelder and PresN—this is the first and only time I'll ever do COI editing, and Miller didn't provide me with any text or sources other than what his issues were, so I was a little confused at first. Everything here is backed by a good source and I've done my best to remain neutral.

1. In the second paragraph of the lede, change "the "Apogee Software" name and logo were sold to Terry Nagy in 2008" to "the "Apogee Software" name, library, and logo were licensed to Terry Nagy in 2008"
2. In the third paragraph of the lede, modify (added content in italics): "Miller remained an advisor for the company until 2021, when he and Nagy acquired the Apogee brand and relaunched Apogee Entertainment."
3. In the first paragraph of "New ownership (2014–2021)", add after the first sentence, "3D Realms was relaunched in October 2014, and incorporated as 3D Realms Entertainment ApS in 2015. Mike Nielsen, the founder and chairman of SDN Invest, became the new chief executive officer of 3D Realms, headquartered in Aalborg, Denmark. Miller remained with the company as a creative consultant, while Apogee Software LLC retained the license to the Apogee brand and library."
4. At the end of the subsection "New ownership (2014–2021)", add the line "In 2021, Miller and Nagy acquired the Apogee name from 3D Realms and relaunched Apogee Software LLC as Apogee Entertainment. In 2022, Miller stated in a blog post that he was now uninvolved with 3D Realms and that "[the company] no longer has any link to the past, other than in name only" because he was no longer there to help design and fund games."
5. Definitely add a {{More citations needed}} tag; from my read, the entirety of the "3D Realms (1996–2009)" subsection is unsourced, and I noticed several unsourced statements in the following two subsections.
6. Maybe split the section "History" into two sections: "Apogee Software", which comprises the "Background", "The Apogee Model (1987–1996)", "3D Realms (1996–2009)", and "Corporate restructuring, legal disputes (2009–2014)" subsections; and "3D Realms Entertainment", which comprises the "New ownership (2014–2021)" and "Acquisition by Embracer Group (2021–present)".

And there you go! I think these should be things everyone can agree on. Again, I apologize for not being as clear and my mistakes earlier. Let me know if there's any concerns or objections. (All this work for a free copy of Turbo Overkill.)

(as an aside, from my research, it looks like this article's a fair bit out of date, as well—they got sued by Gearbox again in 2020 and hired Devolver alumnus Justin Burnham this year. JOEBRO⁶⁴ 23:50, 16 August 2023 (UTC)

Just implemented this, plus some cleanup and bringing in refs from List of 3D Realms games - I agree, it's an improvement. --PresN 18:42, 17 August 2023 (UTC)

Thanks PresN and IceWelder! I think we should be all good now. JOEBRO⁶⁴ 00:08, 18 August 2023 (UTC)

References