Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Judaism/Archive 39

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Archive 39

Missing most "Judaism in Foo" entries

Is it intentional? Judaism in Germany, Judaism in France, Judaism in Poland, Judaism in the United States are all redirects. Comapre to Hinduism in Germany/Buddhism in Germany, Hinduism in France/Buddhism in France, Hinduism in Poland/Buddhism in Poland, Hinduism in the United States/Buddhism in the United States etc. _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 02:28, 5 November 2023 (UTC)

I don't know if it answers your question, but this recent discussion touches on it, even if only just a little bit. Havradim leaf a message 15:56, 7 November 2023 (UTC)

Thanks. I am indeed curious if it has been decided by the community to not create such articles (Judaism in Fooland) or if this is just an accident. Arguably, history of Jews in Fooland and Judaism in Fooland are closely related topics, but they are not 100% identical. For example, there are plenty of reliable academic works discussing the concept of Judaism in Poland. I am thinking about creating a stub or something a bit longer on this topic, unless someone tells me I shouldn't? To quote from this article, entitled Judaism in Poland: "Our subject matter, Judaism in present-day Poland, is narrower than would be that of" Jews in Poland". _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 03:01, 8 November 2023 (UTC)

I agree, you could definitely create unique articles for all of those which are not the same as the history of Jews from that place. Andre🚐 04:19, 8 November 2023 (UTC)

In the case of Judaism in Poland for example, I understand that there are sources. What I am struggling with is how would the proposed article relate to current articles such as History of the Jews in Poland, History of the Jews in 18th-century Poland, History of the Jews in 19th-century Poland, Jewish–Polish history (1989–present) and Hasidic Judaism in Poland? While the latter is a major field of study in its own right, the others also contain a fair amount of discussion about Judaism. And specifically in regard to the latter, is the proposed article going to be about little more than the contents of History of the Jews in Poland before the 18th century § Jewish learning and culture during the early Polish–Lithuanian Commonwealth? Havradim leaf a message 18:53, 9 November 2023 (UTC)

I havent's started researching this topic seriously yet, but I'd assume some duplication of content would occur. Some content might be candidate for merging too. Btw, Judaism in Poland currently redirects to History of the Jews in Poland, but for now, shouldn't we at least make it a disambig given the existence of Hasidic Judaism in Poland that you pointed out? _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 01:22, 10 November 2023 (UTC)

Jewish history is not the same topic as the religion of Judaism and its various sects and an overview of their present extent or historic and activity. Judaism in topics seem like a good idea to the extent that it would be an overview article of the various topics about the groups that describe themselves as Jewish in that region, as opposed to the historical narrative of Jewish people that inhabited that region. There is probably however a need to discuss and propose and publicize such a change, since as you point out, the lack of separate "Judaism in" topics might have been an old consensus that was obtained for some good reason, such as to avoid too much duplication of content. If we do create new articles like this, we should agree on the scope, but I think it would be OK to write a new "Judaism in Poland" article that would not be the same article as any of the others listed here. So if you want to create it, I suggest you do read those other articles first, improve them if you can, and maybe then create a new one. Andre🚐 01:33, 10 November 2023 (UTC)

What about simply redirecting Judaism in Poland to Hasidic Judaism in Poland? The proposed target article has a piped link ([[|History of [the] Jews and Judaism in Poland]]) to History of the Jews in Poland right at the top of the info-template (is that a word?) so that even a hatnote would not be necessary. The info-template also has links to the other articles mentioned above. In this way, I believe the reader's quest for information would be amply addressed in the meantime. By the way Piotrus, I had no idea that you've been around here for this long. Havradim leaf a message 05:17, 10 November 2023 (UTC)

Is it true that most Jews today in Poland are Hasidic? I do not know, but I doubt it. Andre🚐 05:20, 10 November 2023 (UTC)

Today? I don't know, but that isn't the point. The redirect more closely matches the proposed target in scope. And there are ready links right at the top of the proposed target to all the "History of the Jews in Poland" articles anyway, so those are covered as well. As far as Hasidic Judaism is concerned, it became the major stream of Judaism in Poland right up to WWII, so it probably includes the lion's share of the topic. Havradim leaf a message 05:30, 10 November 2023 (UTC)

Sorry, but how does "Hasidic Judaism" match the scope? That is a very specific sect of Judaism, not at all representative of the whole. And do you have a reference that it's the major stream in Poland? Certainly, prior to WWII, there were something like 3 and a half million Jews in Poland, who undoubtedly were also numbered among them misnagdim, reform Jews, etc. For example, just randomly, I found Beit Warszawa Synagogue. It's a synagogue in Poland that is presumably part of Progressive Judaism. Andre🚐 05:46, 10 November 2023 (UTC)

If you read my response carefully, you would see that I was referring to the situation in pre-WWII Poland—obviously, the Holocaust changed everything. Historically though, Misnagdim was more of a Lithuanian phenomenon (Germany never had a plurality of Hasidim either). From this source we find: While [Agudath Israel] considered itself to be the guardian of ultra-Orthodox Jewry as a whole (seeking to unite Polish Hasidim, Lithuanian Misnagdim, and German Neo-Orthodox), it was largely dominated by the Polish Hasidic element, and its leadership generally reflected this domination. (emphasis added). By the way, when we speak of Hasidic Judaism, we are also referring to adherents of nusach Sefard, some of whom are not outwardly Hasidic, but cannot be classified as Misnagdim either, i.e. those who profess to follow nusach Ashkenaz. So yes, at least in recent memory, Polish Judaism was mostly Hasidic. Optimally however, Judaism in Poland would cover earlier and later periods also. In regards to the proposed redirect, we are speaking here of a stop-gap measure only. Havradim leaf a message 07:02, 10 November 2023 (UTC)

The text you have emphasized refers to Polish Hasidim but does not support the claim that Hasidim were the majority of Polish Jews. It simply supports the claim that Hasidic Jews were the majority of Orthodox Jews, but says nothing of Reform, Conservative, Reconstructionist, Neolog, or other non-Orthodox Jewish groups. Wodziński, Marcin; Cozens, Sarah; Mirowska, Agnieszka (2005). Haskalah and Hasidism in the Kingdom of Poland: A History of Conflict. Liverpool University Press. ISBN 978-1-904113-08-9. suggests that pre-WWII there was indeed a conflict between the maskilim and the Hasidim. Andre🚐 07:11, 10 November 2023 (UTC)

Point well taken. In any case, I would like to hear Piotrus' opinion on this. I think the redirect might better be left alone. A dab page seems a bit overkill to me, but I might be persuaded yet. Havradim leaf a message 07:19, 10 November 2023 (UTC)

I doubt I'll have time to write up that article anytime soon - at the same time I doubt it would get deleted at AfD, since sources exist and topic is notable, per cited academic paper ([1]). And it looks weird that we have main articles for even minor religions in Category:Religion in Poland (and similar categories in other countries) but not Judaism (see also Template:Religion in Poland), compare with Islam in Poland or Buddhism in Poland which are pretty much trivia/footnotes level in importance yet have articles, etc. _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 09:02, 10 November 2023 (UTC)

PS. As for the redirect, rather then retargeting it, disambig should solve all of the issues raised above, I think? _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 09:03, 10 November 2023 (UTC)

Odd "Jewish intellectual studies" article

Hi all, I'm not a part of this WikiProject, but I saw Jewish intellectual studies while looking through the New Pages feed, and thought this might be a good place to bring my concerns, as it feels very oddly written and I'm not sure if there is precedent is for this type of article (and if it should be kept, reworked, merged, deleted, etc). I've started a conversation on Talk:Jewish intellectual studies, but I haven't heard back from the article's author yet. Thanks! ForsythiaJo (talk) 23:13, 3 December 2023 (UTC)

It seems the article and talk page are already gone. Dan Carkner (talk) 02:13, 4 December 2023 (UTC)

Effort to delete cat via merge

This may interest some people here. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Jewish_women%27s_basketball_players 2603:7000:2101:AA00:A043:72FB:85CE:2E30 (talk) 20:45, 7 December 2023 (UTC)

It won't. This IP address is going rogue. This is part of a bigger discussion for Category:Jewish sportspeople as per WP:OC. @Marcocapelle, pinging you here. Omnis Scientia (talk) 21:57, 7 December 2023 (UTC)

Gender and Jewish studies

This looks to be a very detailed article with lots of references, but I can't help but feel that the article reads very essay-like at the moment. If any editors in this WikiProject would be interested in improving this article, I think this has great potential. GnocchiFan (talk) 14:04, 10 December 2023 (UTC)

Proposed merger of Surabaya Synagogue.

Hi folks, I decided to beef up the article about the Surabaya Synagogue today and only after doing a bunch of work did I notice there was also an article about the congregation that owned it, the Israelitische Gemeente Soerabaia. I proposed that they be merged with a redirect, feel free to comment on it at Talk:Surabaya_Synagogue#Proposed_merger_December_2023. thanks. Dan Carkner (talk) 01:42, 17 December 2023 (UTC)

Jewish American categories

A large number of Jewish American categories are proposed to be deleted/merged. see article alerts under categories for discussion at Wikiproject Judaism categories for discussion Patapsco913 (talk) 23:11, 21 December 2023 (UTC)

Collab on Vilna Gaon page

I would like some help on editing the Vilna Gaon page, much of it is unsourced and the structure is not great. I have started posting sources in the talk page and would appreciate some help with finding more sources and raising the quality of the article. FergusArgyll (talk) 22:13, 31 December 2023 (UTC)

Good article reassessment for Western Wall

Western Wall has been nominated for a good article reassessment. If you are interested in the discussion, please participate by adding your comments to the reassessment page. If concerns are not addressed during the review period, the good article status may be removed from the article. ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 01:16, 2 January 2024 (UTC)

Requested move at Talk:Shema Yisrael#Requested move 5 January 2024

There is a requested move discussion at Talk:Shema Yisrael#Requested move 5 January 2024 that may be of interest to members of this WikiProject. Vanderwaalforces (talk) 00:03, 6 January 2024 (UTC)

Requested move at Talk:List of synagogue shootings#Requested move 8 January 2024

There is a requested move discussion at Talk:List of synagogue shootings#Requested move 8 January 2024 that may be of interest to members of this WikiProject. Vanderwaalforces (talk) 11:48, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

Requested move at Talk:Songs of thanksgiving (pesukei dezimra)#Requested move 10 January 2024

There is a requested move discussion at Talk:Songs of thanksgiving (pesukei dezimra)#Requested move 10 January 2024 that may be of interest to members of this WikiProject. Vanderwaalforces (talk) 20:00, 10 January 2024 (UTC)

Good article reassessment for Max Weinberg

Max Weinberg has been nominated for a good article reassessment. If you are interested in the discussion, please participate by adding your comments to the reassessment page. If concerns are not addressed during the review period, the good article status may be removed from the article. Spinixster (chat!) 10:05, 23 January 2024 (UTC)

Abrahamic Religions

The Abrahamic Religions page has a section on Judaism that is sorely lacking and is ahistorical, describing Judaism's origins in a distasteful and inaccurate way. I tried updating a few sentences in that section last night and there is an editor monopolizing the page so I want to invite other subject matter experts on Judaism to contribute to the article instead of getting into an editing war.Nycarchitecture212 (talk) 15:26, 3 March 2024 (UTC)

There is nothing at Abrahamic religions#Judaism which isn't mainstream academic knowledge. If you seek to remove mainstream academic knowledge from Wikipedia, you're in for a rocky ride. tgeorgescu (talk) 02:33, 5 March 2024 (UTC)

Should a BLP describe keeping kosher and observing Shabbat as "traditions"?

Emily Austin (journalist) states that she "follows Jewish traditions such as keeping kosher and observing Shabbat". Is this the correct phrasing? Or perhaps something stronger like Jewish law, or even commandments? ☆ Bri (talk) 18:40, 6 March 2024 (UTC)

Your wording sounds fine to me. Sdkb ^talk 20:11, 7 March 2024 (UTC)

Sorry @Sdkb: which one is right? ☆ Bri (talk) 22:43, 7 March 2024 (UTC)

"Jewish traditions" seems fine to me. But "Jewish law" would be too. Sdkb ^talk 23:05, 7 March 2024 (UTC)

Reading the sources (I also added one to the page) I think "traditions" is right. She's never said that she follows anything systematically qua law, and she seems mostly to relate to the rituals. Quite normal for spiritual types without comprehensive religious education, which tends to push people into some sort of specific identity with regard to Jewish law. GordonGlottal (talk) 00:26, 8 March 2024 (UTC)

Good article reassessment for Isaac

Isaac has been nominated for a good article reassessment. If you are interested in the discussion, please participate by adding your comments to the reassessment page. If concerns are not addressed during the review period, the good article status may be removed from the article. Spinixster (chat!) 10:01, 11 March 2024 (UTC)

Page move on Jew's harp

The discussion is: Talk:Jew's harp#Requested move 19 March 2024. REDISCOVERBHARAT (talk) 16:56, 19 March 2024 (UTC)

Discussing the Inactivity

I recently joined this project and noticed that it appears less active. The last new article was in 2021!

Could the inactivity stem from a lack of contributors with expertise in Judaic studies, or are there other factors at play? I am very interested in everything regarding Judaism and eager to discuss what can be done to reinvigorate the project. Progoees (talk) 11:21, 26 March 2024 (UTC)

I've noticed other wikiprojects I follow the talk pages of have also had a decline in activity during this time. I'm not sure if it's specific to this one. Working together is good but I'd say it shouldn't just be reinvigorated for its own sake but for the purposes of getting informed comment on issues you're encountering in articles. Dan Carkner (talk) 14:32, 26 March 2024 (UTC)

It seems that the most active editors do not view wikiprojsects as beneficial to their editing tasks. It would be helpful if leaders stepped up and engaged more consistently with team members, otherwise being a member of a wiki project doesn't seem very necessary. Mistamystery (talk) 17:53, 29 March 2024 (UTC)

Religions of various Jewish communities

Hi WP Judaism! There is an editor who has made several edits to pages such as Yemenite Jews, History of the Jews in Afghanistan, History of the Jews in Egypt, and Bene Israel stating that the "religion" of these groups are Judaism, Islam, Christianity, Hinduism, and/or Buddhism, and when I asked for a source about Islam being the religion of Yemenite Jews, they shared this link, which includes a mention of a 1922 law forcing the conversion of Islam to all Yemeni Jewish orphans under the age of 12. I do not think this is a valid statement or a valid reference to support this claim of the religion of Yemenite Jews being both Judaism and Islam but I am interested in how project members view this and if this is a subject that has previously been discussed. Would appreciate any feedback on this so I'm not caught up in a vicious revert cycle. Thank you! Kazamzam (talk) 21:59, 4 April 2024 (UTC)

The reason why I added other religions because do know there are people who are Jewish converts to different religions. We have seen this through European Jews. SpinnerLaserzthe2nd (talk) 22:00, 4 April 2024 (UTC)

@SpinnerLaserzthe2nd - what do you mean by this? what is the citation for this claim? Kazamzam (talk) 22:05, 4 April 2024 (UTC)

List of converts to Christianity from Judaism (most of them were European Jewish descent) and one source of the Jewish Virtual Library does mention that earlier Yemeni Jews had converted to Islam (https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/yemen-2). SpinnerLaserzthe2nd (talk) 22:07, 4 April 2024 (UTC)

These articles are not talking about individual people who convert from Judaism to another religion, it is talking about the community as a whole. The claim "We have seen this through European (I assume you mean Ashkenazi because you edited that page as well) Jews" does not make sense. No one would say that the religion of Hindus or of Parsis is Islam because some Hindus and Parsis have converted to Islam. Many of these conversions also happened involuntarily and as a result of immense government-sponsored or -sanctioned antisemitic laws and/or pogroms, i.e. the Spanish inquisition, so the claim that the religion of [X] group of Jews is Islam or Christianity is quite tasteless. Kazamzam (talk) 22:10, 4 April 2024 (UTC)

Are you saying that my edits are antisemitic? Not all Jews follow Judaism (yes, I am aware that most Jews follow Judaism) but they still identify as Jewish and I tried to find a good source that states that Jews also followed other religions. SpinnerLaserzthe2nd (talk) 22:43, 4 April 2024 (UTC)

It sounds like you have a thing you want to say ("Jews don't have to be Jewish") and are looking for backing for it, rather than trying to derive your edits from reliable sources. Like Kazamzam said, individuals converting (or being forcibly converted!) does not support a change to the description of the page for a Jewish community, any more than you would make this change for any other religious community's page. 96.238.30.75 (talk) 23:06, 4 April 2024 (UTC)

I agree. It seems contrived to try and build this into article about Jewish communities in a widespread manner. If it's relevant in a specific biography or if conversion is an important in the history of a particular community it be appropriately sourced and cited. Dan Carkner (talk) 00:26, 5 April 2024 (UTC)

This is great topic, if handled properly. There are Jewish converts to other religions, of course, and plenty of ink spilt on their status in Jewish law and Jewish communities. This hardly merits a sentence in articles on Jewish communities, but there are existing articles to improve, such as:

Template:Lists of converts, including list of converts from Judaism

Conversions of Jews to Christianity

Islamic–Jewish relations#Conversion of Jews to Islam

ProfGray (talk) 01:28, 5 April 2024 (UTC)

Request for comment at Reliable Sources Noticeboard RFC: The Anti-Defamation League

There is a request for comment at Wikipedia:Reliable_sources/Noticeboard#RFC:_The_Anti-Defamation_League that may be of interest to members of this WikiProject. Mistamystery (talk) 23:47, 13 April 2024 (UTC)

Requested move at Weaponization of antisemitism

There is a requested move at Weaponization of antisemitism that may be of interest to members of this WikiProject. Mistamystery (talk) 21:14, 24 April 2024 (UTC)

GA review request

I've made a GA nomination for Kennicott Bible. If anyone is interested in reviewing this that would be great. Many thanks. Uriel1022 (talk) 23:40, 6 May 2024 (UTC)

Reference for niqqud

Got asked a really odd question off line. What is the proper way to reference the specific Niqqud for a torah portion? Something like Berakhah is easier, it is a word used today in Israel. However, I'm wondering more like Selah, where "its etymology and precise meaning are unknown." How do you reference that the vowel on the lamed?Naraht (talk) 17:35, 27 May 2024 (UTC)

Talk:Israel has an RfC on the topic: mention apartheid in the lead?

Talk:Israel has an RfC. If you would like to participate in the discussion, you are invited to add your comments on the discussion page. Thank you. FortunateSons (talk) 12:00, 3 June 2024 (UTC)

Vital article Split of Christianity and Judaism needs help

Hello!
I started Split of Christianity and Judaism in February. It is more than a one-person job, and I haven't been able to contribute significantly to it in months. This is an important article, and I'd love to see it improved.
Thanks! Zanahary (talk) 02:05, 4 June 2024 (UTC)

Wikiproject Jerusalem

Hi everyone, I have just established the "Wikiproject Jerusalem ", I am looking for editors who would like to join the effort. I guess there are relevant editors here. I would be delighted to see you join, advise and assist. Good Day.PeleYoetz (talk) 09:11, 13 June 2024 (UTC)

Should Cain and Abel be merged into Cain and Abel?

Your view is welcome at Talk:Cain_and_Abel#Should_Cain_and_Abel_be_merged_into_this_article?. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 07:19, 16 June 2024 (UTC)

Suggest cs1 template for verses in Tan"akh

Currently there is a {{tanakhverse}} for reference to specific verses, but there is no template for more detailed citations. I believe that there is a case for a {{cite tanakh}} with parameters such as

|book=

Hebrew or English name of book

|chapter=

Chapter number

|parsha=

Hebrew name for portion

|verse=

Either verse number or chapter-verse

|verses=

Range of verses as above

|quote=

English translation of quote

|script-quote=

Original Hebrew or Aramaic text of quote

|version=

Translation using the same values as {{tanakhverse|version=}}

It should be mandatory to specify |book= or |parshah=. Ideally it should be possible to specify verses either with Arabic numerals or Hebrew letters and to request rendering in either English plus Hebrew or in only English. I'm not sure whether a parameter for transliteration would be useful. -- Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz Username:Chatul (talk) 10:07, 25 June 2024 (UTC)

Discussion at Wikipedia:Village pump (idea lab) § Changing all values of the Hebrew language, from Yeshu(ישו), Yeshua(ישוע)

 You are invited to join the discussion at Wikipedia:Village pump (idea lab) § Changing all values of the Hebrew language, from Yeshu(ישו), Yeshua(ישוע). This person proposes changing all uses of "Yeshu" to refer to Jesus to "Yeshua". Aaron Liu (talk) 20:45, 21 July 2024 (UTC)

Discussion about Orthodox Judaism

There's a discussion that might be intresting for you at Fringe theories/Noticeboard § Presenting the POV of Orthodox Jews as unvarnished truth ZucherBundlech (talk) 09:26, 31 July 2024 (UTC)

Requested move at Talk:Shwekey#Requested move 29 July 2024

There is a requested move discussion at Talk:Shwekey#Requested move 29 July 2024 that may be of interest to members of this WikiProject. Reading Beans 07:05, 5 August 2024 (UTC)

RFC

There is a discussion at the Reliable sources/Noticeboard about the reliability of the Jewish Chronicle, interested editors can see the discussion here WP:RSN#RFC Jewish Chronicle. Andre🚐 19:31, 23 September 2024 (UTC)

Opinion needed on Jewish atheism

Feedback welcome: Talk:Jewish_atheism#Discussion_regarding_the_return_of_an_important_description_of_the_influence_of_Ayn_Rand's_atheistic_views. a455bcd9 (Antoine) (talk) 14:50, 14 August 2024 (UTC)

Zzzzz! But I recently noticed that Secular Jew goes to a redirect page, from which the leading link is to Jewish secularism, a lengthy & no doubt good article about philosophical debates, mostly in the 19th & early 20th centuries, which I had never heard of, and I suspect most secular Jews never have either (I'm not one). Really material, probably in its own article, is needed on the topic today, and not just in the US & Israel please. Johnbod (talk) 15:27, 14 August 2024 (UTC)

Jewish secularism is indeed in a terrible shape... a455bcd9 (Antoine) (talk) 16:22, 14 August 2024 (UTC)

I suspect it's ok on the slice of Jewish/Zionist history it covers, but is completely useless for covering the wider topic of secular Jews. Nor does anything else on the disam page seem any better. Johnbod (talk) 02:57, 24 September 2024 (UTC)

like most things Jewish, Jewish secularism is both very old and there are also tons of contemporary developments within. There is also a large body of material about it which largely, as Johnbod says, appears to be absent from Wikipedia, much like many other topics Jewish and non-. The bulk of material on modern-day secular Judaism or Jewish atheism, but really secular Jewish culture, should probably talk about Yiddishkeit and the Jewish immigrant experience (or better title), I think the work of Hasia Diner would be relevant to start with.[2] Andre🚐 03:12, 24 September 2024 (UTC)

CFD Discussion regarding Jewish legal scholars

There is a discussion under way regarding two Categories I recently created for Jewish legal scholars, which have been nominated for deletion. I don't know why this WikiProject wasn't notified. In any event, please join the discussion. Regards, Anomalous+0 (talk) 15:05, 24 September 2024 (UTC)

This discussion has been continued, "relisted," and it remains relevant to this Wikiproject. (Admittedly, the relisting is due to a suggestion that I made.) See: Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2024 September 30#Category:Jewish American legal scholars Thank you. ProfGray (talk) 03:05, 30 September 2024 (UTC)

feed

I got us a feed here Wikipedia:WikiProject Judaism/New articles Andre🚐 20:49, 30 September 2024 (UTC)