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Mem/f chapter

Looking at List of Tau Kappa Epsilon members vs. List of Alpha Phi Omega members . For the chapter for TKE, the entries look like chapter=Eta / [[University of Chicago]], For APO, they look like [[University of Chicago|Eta]]. The first is more clear, perhaps, the second saves space. Which is preferred? Should we change them to a single model? Note, I think the way that TKE does it is uncommon, but I think far more common is simple Eta (and let the person look it up in the chapter list).Naraht (talk) 12:33, 1 October 2023 (UTC)

I used a variant of the TKE model on the List of Phi Sigma Kappa members, using parentheses for the school and omitting the slash. I could go either way; I'll go along with the consensus. Now that it is a point of discussion, I am reminded I prefer left justified information, versus centered. Also, I'd note that I like the way TKE designated honorary members with a specific symbol (their pin). Within our Watchlist, certain groups have a much higher percentage of honorary notable members. Jax MN (talk) 19:09, 1 October 2023 (UTC)
I don't see anything on List of Tau Kappa Epsilon members , it is List of Alpha Phi Omega members that has the symbol with the H, and I was involved in the creation of it *long* time ago. (I'm an APO brother) Agreed, I prefer left justified, We can switch *that* one as well. And yes, Alpha Phi Omega has a high number of honorary brothers. I've made the comment on a Facebook group that in the 1940s, 1950s and early 1960s, given that Boy Scouting probably had a 95% approval rate that a chapter that didn't get the University President as an honorary brother wasn't trying hard enough. 1/2 :)Naraht (talk) 22:43, 1 October 2023 (UTC)
Its Alpha Phi Omega that has the symbols for member type. I would prefer that this info be included in the chapter column as the spelled out word "honorary" or placed elsewhere in the table. In front of the name is annoying, although it is not impacting sorting. Regarding your main question: Listing just the chapter name is fine when the chapter list and notables are in the same article, as the chapter list serves as the key. I don't think requiring the reader to look between the chapter list article and the alumni list article is ideal. I have linked the school name to the GL name, used the school name instead, used an abbreviated school name, etc.—basically working with whatever is already in use. Unless you are using a GLO publication, most sources list the school name and not the GL name, making it harder on the editor to include the GL name. Of course, the opposite is true if working with the GLO publication. Maybe we should offer two acceptable options, making it easier on us? Rublamb (talk) 23:14, 1 October 2023 (UTC)
Yep. Those symbols were used to designate honorary APO members. I was in error. Re: the main question, I prefer that we list the schools, along with the chapter names. Jax MN (talk) 23:48, 1 October 2023 (UTC)
As a note, the person who originally created the H symbol hasn't edited on Wikipedia since 2010 (The symbol was created in 2007) (I'm still friends with him on Facebook) One of the reasons that that was done was that there was the potential of just *so* much information to be put in the chapter= column. Alpha Phi Omega's Honorary brother list includes both the honorary members of chapters in the United States *and* those in the Philippines. as such, it makes sense for the country to be placed there as well.
The best example is Robert Lyndon S. Barbers , He is an honorary brother of Epsilon Gamma chapter of Alpha Phi Omega of the Philippines (and as such his current entry has both the H symbol and the Philippines flag. The Epsilon Gamma chapter for APO Philippines that he is an honorary brother is at St. Paul University - Surigao, (in Surigao City, Surigao del Norte, Philippines) as opposed to Epsilon Gamma chapter for APO USA is at Alfred University (in Alfred, New York). So what should that entry look like? Naraht (talk) 01:30, 2 October 2023 (UTC)
It seems to me that if multiple chapters can claim a member, they should both be listed. It's likely to be rare. Jax MN (talk) 04:29, 2 October 2023 (UTC)
It isn't that multiple chapters can claim the same member. It is that failure to specify *which* Epsilon Gamma it applies to reduces the usefulness. (Both APO-USA and APO-Philippines started with Alpha and use standard Chapter order, so for every chapter up to about Nu Omega , there is one in each country, completely unrelated to each other).Naraht (talk) 12:57, 2 October 2023 (UTC)
I get the issue. I still don't think the symbols belong in the name column or as the first thing in a column. There are a couple of solutions. You could keep the symbols but use them in the chapter column as that is the content they actually refer to, placing the symbol after the chapter name. Or, within APO, how do you normally represent USA or Philippines in print? Do you ever use something like (P) or the standard abbreviation PH for the Philippines? As in Epsilon Gamma PH. That is the equivalent of using Epsilon Gamma NY, meaning it is a standardized abbreviation that does not need a key for most people. Another option to to consider two tables. In organizations (especially colleges) where there are many honorary members, I prefer dividing the honorary members into their own list because the honorary members tend to inflate the list significantly. But in this case, I think the USA and PH members should be split into two table--based on the fact that there is a Wikipedia article for APO and APO PH. Whether that division results in two articles or not, it appears that we have already decided to treat this as two groups, making the case for two lists for me. Rublamb (talk) 16:55, 2 October 2023 (UTC)
I've been giving this a *lot* of thought, knowing I have a *MASSIVE* NNPOV and WP:OWN issues for at least three reasons. 1) I'm a brother of Alpha Phi Omega, 2) I probably know Alpha Phi Omega Philippines better than almost all APO-USA brothers, 3) I've written most of these pages, and 4) I believe the first page I created on Wikipedia in 2006(!) was the List of Alpha Phi Omega members page. Although it shouldn't make a difference, the fact that specific people (mostly Presidents of the United States) are Honorary brothers of APO-USA is probably more of a point of pride for the APO-Phil brothers than the APO-USA brothers. (and yes, I'm using these abbreviations, but that doesn't make them necessarily preferred, see the Alpha Phi Omega page for info on abbreviations. I *think* that all of the entries in the table for APO-Philippines is on the Alpha Phi Omega (Philippines) page, so after checking, I don't think we split, I think we'd remove the Philippines entries, *but* it may make sense to make the APO-Philippines list its own page. And while it is two groups, it is closer than that, APO-Phil brothers are *far* more likely to consider honorary brothers of APO-USA as someone to be noteworthy than a member of BSA would consider an honorary brother of Boy Scouts Canada.Naraht (talk) 15:18, 4 October 2023 (UTC)
@Naraht, As an outsider to APO (although I dated one in my college days), I would have questioned why there were US and PH pages, and would have suggested merging them. However, in this cases, it is great to have someone with inside understanding to advise. I see no conflict and you should be proud of what you have accomplished here in Wikipedia, especially given how challenging it can be to work on PH groups. It always gets trickier with honorary members as some groups use this as puffery and self promotion. That is why I like clearly identifying honorary status in this type of list which you have done. My general rule as a neutral party is that if the honoraries are taking over the list, they should be divided into a separate table or else add a column so it is sortable by member type. If there are just a few honorary members, it is fine to mix them in. How many is too many? I cannot say. Rublamb (talk) 20:29, 4 October 2023 (UTC)
Two points: First, I have no problem whatsoever with your editing APO pages, Naraht. You've declared your association; in spite of this, your edits are professional. Second, I agree with Rublamb's point that in some cases, heavily-honorary lists ought to be split, or better yet, have an added column to denote those who were honorary members, and not collegiate participants. Jax MN (talk) 21:54, 4 October 2023 (UTC)
Rublamb, Jax MN I dated one after my college days, but during hers. Married her :) The sad thing is that even with *all* of the APO-Philippines oddities that have been dealt with in Wikipedia, they are, IMO, the Philippines GLO with among the most documentation/references. Now, some of that is reporters wanting to add information to coverage of the Oblation Run, but I'll take just about anything I can get. (For a good time, start a conversation among APO-USA national leadership about Oblation Run, bring popcorn). At the *very* beginning of APO (the 1935 Baird's I think), there were some references to APO having the executives of *all* Boy Scout Councils as honorary members, but I'm taking that with a gigantic grain of Salt. It isn't dominated by Honorary members. I did a quick search for Mem/f (which there should be one per entry) and got that there are 476 entries in the page, looking for the honorary pin there are 201. If these were freestanding created tables, then adding an honorary column might be possible, but all of these are the Mem/f template, and switching templates seems difficult. The Honorary pin was the solution created based on that. From the standpoint of someone looking for information, I'm not really use it makes sense to look in different pages for (random fake example) two Presidents of Michigan State University (picking a school) where one was made an honorary brother by the MSU chapter and the other was an advisor to the chapter at Purdue while a Dean at Purdue and then hired as the Michigan State University President. Advisors are full members of the Fraternity and it is even more difficult to split *those* off from some references than the honoraries.Naraht (talk) 14:51, 5 October 2023 (UTC)

Dormant

Should we *ever* use this this term, if not, should it simply be entirely replaced with inactive in all situations? (Yes, I know all is a strong term). If not, should it ever be used in a chapter table?Naraht (talk) 01:36, 9 October 2023 (UTC)

I don't have a strong opinion on it, except that within an article we should use one or the other, not both. That came up in an edit I made a few days ago. Jax MN (talk) 07:28, 9 October 2023 (UTC)
A while back you suggested using inactive instead of domant. You made a good case, something about average readers and formality of terms. Can't remember exactly what you wrote but you convinced me to start using inactive. I think there was one group that actually uses dormant and inactive to describe chapter status, but that is not really an issue here. Rublamb (talk) 15:43, 9 October 2023 (UTC)
IMO, if dormant and inactive have different meanings for a group, then it might make sense. (For example if inactive was only used when the school had closed.) If so, that probably should be text above the top of the table. Naraht (talk) 16:38, 9 October 2023 (UTC)

Infobox Fraternity - Single Line?

Are there any advantages to having the data in the infobox fraternity template in a single line? I get why that should happen with cn and cite, etc. But for infobox fraternity (and most of the other infoboxes), I tend to be a one line per data element...Naraht (talk) Naraht (talk) 15:59, 11 October 2023 (UTC)

List of fraternities and sororities in the Philippines

Any reason not to do the trim again, delete everything without a page? I'd want to check to make sure that the fraternities and sororities in the article are *exactly* those in Category:Fraternities_and_sororities_in_the_Philippines with the possible exception of when a bound fraternity and sorority have different names and both are mentioned in one article. The question is what to do if references are put in this article, but no page exists (like Scintilla Juris). I'm also just fine with nuking the registration column.Naraht (talk) 03:12, 9 October 2023 (UTC)

I did some trimmming in [[List of fraternities and sororities in the Philippines as most of the ones I identified last year were still red linked and had no obvious sources. A few remain that do have a website, but that is the only source I could find. There are still a bunch with a Wikipedia article that have no source or just the group's website as its source. I didn't have luck looking for sources today. Should we go ahead and nominate these for deleation of let it slide if they have a website? Rublamb (talk) 00:36, 12 October 2023 (UTC)
I also added WP Philippines to all that have an articles. An editor in that WP hasa already been updated some articles include class; this is good news as we are now involving other editors who might have access to better sources and can participate in any future deletion dicusions. I noticed in our WP notability guideliness, we are supposed to be using SEC registration as a standard for inclusion of Philippine GLOs. I do have concerns if the SEC is the only source, as clearly the entire content of the article other than its name, address, and founding date would fall under original research/citations needed. Should we retain such articles, but cut the unsourced content where a sources needed notice has been posted for years? @Naraht, I know you have put in the most time with these groups. As an inclusionist, I have tried to fix the issue but some of these articles have had plenty of time to be improved. Rublamb (talk) 18:20, 12 October 2023 (UTC)

Unusual naming convention

@Naraht, I know you will especially appreciate the naming convention for Sigma Alpha Rho. Somehow, I think it is worse than random. Rublamb (talk) 03:12, 9 November 2023 (UTC)

Rublamb Have you ever considered a professional career in giving people nightmares?Naraht (talk) 05:34, 9 November 2023 (UTC)
I had to read it three times before I could understand it enough to copy edit it. Its proves that teenage boys should not be in charge of anything. Rublamb (talk) 07:19, 9 November 2023 (UTC)
Put them in a barrel at age 14 and at age 21 decide whether to drive in the plug bung hole. I had three sons, the last of which (who has gone non-binary after HS graduation) is now in College. (Being in a co-ed service fraternity, I'm not honestly sure when the first out non-binary brother joined APO, but at *worst*, the national office had to made gender an editable field in the software)Naraht (talk) 16:45, 9 November 2023 (UTC)
Also, where is the references/source for the insane lettering?Naraht (talk) 16:56, 9 November 2023 (UTC)
Good catch. I just found it in the hisotry article and have added citations. Rublamb (talk) 17:29, 9 November 2023 (UTC)
Thanx. And Sigma Alpha Rho vs. List_of_Lambda_Chi_Alpha_chapters#Naming. :)Naraht (talk) 17:44, 9 November 2023 (UTC)
I am stuck on mnemonic device. I am sure their pledges appreciated this thoughfulness as they memorized the list of chapters. Rublamb (talk) 17:59, 9 November 2023 (UTC)
On the one hand a mnemonic is useful, OTOH, the idea of expecting pledges to be able to repeat the mnemonic under stress would be very likely to happen.Naraht (talk) 00:18, 10 November 2023 (UTC)

Beta Sigma Omicron and flower

I agree that the current reference shows the Beta Sigma Omicron flower as the Carnation, but I have found a lot of references (as early as 1919) to it being the Richmond And Killarney Roses (or in a few cases just the Killarney Rose) https://digitalcommons.lindenwood.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1071&context=yearbooks

Ideas? Naraht (talk) 21:16, 13 January 2024 (UTC)

I checked Baird's 1927 which lists the roses. I know some groups had two levels of flowers but lacking a sorority manual, you will never know. I would use Bairds as it was a "newer" edition and also considered more reliable. Rublamb (talk) 22:13, 13 January 2024 (UTC)
Yep, it seems the latest reference ought to carry the most weight. Groups that are in trouble, tending toward dissolution may not have the time to argue over which flower is correct. Certainly there may have been two, so this could be noted in the text. Jax MN (talk) 23:18, 13 January 2024 (UTC)

Fairmont

Are we all good that AKPsi Sorority was in Tennessee and that KD, ASA and BSO were in DC? Naraht (talk) 21:18, 18 January 2024 (UTC)

For my part, I'm convinced. The two references I noted against the AKPsi chapter in TN are either contemporaneous or note contemporaneous sources themselves. There was a third Fairmont, this one in in Texas, but I do not know of a Greek chapter residing there. (Sorry, too, to upend an edit Rublamb offered, but these other references were quite clear. I did some cleanup on the various names, where "Seminary" had spilled over.) I let the Archivist know about this, too. Jax MN (talk) 21:25, 18 January 2024 (UTC)
One of the sources talked about AKPsi and Delta Gamma being at the location in TN, and in the DG list, it links to Fairmount College (Tennessee) which is a redirect to DuBose Conference Center which does talk (somewhat) as the Fairmount College use of the location in the history. I think we should like AKPsi to that location as well.Naraht (talk) 01:27, 19 January 2024 (UTC)
I apprecite the digging you both did on this. It does look like the TN school was Fairmount School for Girls, Fairmount School for Young Ladies, and Farimount College which explains the spelling variations that Naraht had found and also means that the two schools didn't have the same name. One less issue to worry about. Rublamb (talk) 02:39, 19 January 2024 (UTC)
Linking AKPsi Sorority to Fairmount College (Tennessee).Naraht (talk) 13:47, 19 January 2024 (UTC)

Kappa Omicron Nu category???

At this point given Kappa Omicron Nu, Omicron Nu, Kappa Omicron Phi, List of Kappa Omicron Nu chapters, List of Omicron Nu chapters, and List of Kappa Omicron Phi chapters , I think a Category:Kappa Omicron Nu makes sense, opinions?Naraht (talk) 20:15, 25 January 2024 (UTC)

I'd also like to thank Rublamb for all the work on this. I don't remember what our limit was (more than X chapters in the table, the chapter list is split off, but these seemed to meet the criteria.Naraht (talk) 20:21, 25 January 2024 (UTC)
I agree that a category makes sense. You taught me to create a stand-alone article at 50 chapters or going in to Beta Beta. Rublamb (talk) 20:23, 25 January 2024 (UTC)
Will create and OK, I agree with myself. :)Naraht (talk) 20:41, 25 January 2024 (UTC)

iota alpha pi

Apparently it has returned after 52 years. Still trying to verify things. See https://www.facebook.com/iotaalphapi?mibextid=ZbWKwL

It is either a true return or at least from people who are very aware of thr prior group. Can't find other coverage though. Naraht (talk) 15:27, 9 October 2023 (UTC)

I ran into this with two of the secret societies. I decide to let a sentance about reactivation remain with a citation needed notice. Rublamb (talk) 15:39, 9 October 2023 (UTC)
Nice catch. I let the Archivist at Illinois know this. Jax MN (talk) 17:43, 9 October 2023 (UTC)
I'd love to have better coverage, but that group seems filled with Iota Alpha Pi alumnae, and lots of congrats to them. So if it is a fake, it is an organized fake.Naraht (talk) 18:48, 9 October 2023 (UTC)
And of course half of the interesting stuff is from Fran Becque, but in some cases without reference. (for example the addition of the roses to the pin)
I traded correspondence with Fran, just now. Apparently, the rebirth of that organization is being discussed amongst NPC members, and she will be updating their Archive page accordingly, now that the chapter is established. (I don't know to what degree of establishment.) Something else came up; I'll send you a message offline. Jax MN (talk) 19:58, 9 October 2023 (UTC)
Jax MN, Rublamb Just made the changes to Iota Alpha Pi. Hanging on Facebook and on the google doc for the status is definitely *not* where I would prefer to be, but that is our current situation. Would appreciate comments and tweeks. I had to actually create a category, Category:Former members of the National Panhellenic Conference since every other former member of the NPC is in Category:Defunct former members of the National Panhellenic Conference, I think NPC has *never* had a sorority leave alive before (though most formers merged). (unlike most other Umbrella organizations). Still in contact, trying to better pins, but we'll see what we can get.Naraht (talk) 23:12, 22 October 2023 (UTC)
I would remove Facebook as a source. It is better to have no source than a source that is not allowed and unreliable, IMO. But I am not against looking at Facebook to help determine whether or not a group is real or active. Something better will show up eventually if they make it. Rublamb (talk) 23:48, 22 October 2023 (UTC)
Facebook is *sometimes* allowed as a Reliable Source. See WP:FACEBOOK. This one is on the line, I think. Let's see other editors' views.Naraht (talk) 00:15, 23 October 2023 (UTC)
Strange as it sounds, I have never had a Facebook account. I don't know whether that brands me a Luddite or a time-saving champion, but whenever I thought about starting an account I always heard a giant sucking sound of my available time whooshing out of my window. I'll bet that the members will be able to provide some citation, in the near future. Jax MN (talk) 00:29, 23 October 2023 (UTC)

Redirect: Kappa Alpha (Southern)

Working through a few old Baird's and a couple of other places, the term "Kappa Alpha (Southern)" is fairly commonly used for Kappa Alpha Order (founded at Washington and Lee in Virginia). Is this an appropriate redirect? I also occasionally see Kappa Alpha (Northern) for Kappa Alpha Society. Should these be redirects? (not sure if the S in Southern should be capitalized).Naraht (talk) 00:39, 13 December 2023 (UTC)

Since "KA Southern" is not mentioned in the article, I suspect this may not be an actual name variation. However, if you find it in Baird's, a start would be to add it to the article. Rublamb (talk) 01:35, 26 December 2023 (UTC)
Not a name variation, just a shorthand to make it clear which ones it is talking about. For a *very* long time, every KA Society chapter was north of every KA Order chapter. I see it used in various fraternity writings from the 1870s to the 1930s (for example when one national fraternity magazine is listing the number of chapters of the other NIC groups.) I've gone ahead and created them.Naraht (talk) 06:26, 26 December 2023 (UTC)

Crescent College - Encyclopedia source

For BSO's Mu chapter at Crescent College, the Encyclopedia of Arkansas page might be almost enough to do an article by itself! - https://encyclopediaofarkansas.net/entries/crescent-college-and-conservatory-5618/ Naraht (talk) 14:03, 19 January 2024 (UTC)

Similar for St. John's College of Arkansas.Naraht (talk) 14:31, 19 January 2024 (UTC)

School pages needed list

I made a page for the Maryland Military and Naval Academy, and I'm looking to do one for the Chevy Chase Seminary/Chevy Chase Junior College (the location is within 20 miles of me), would it be worth while to have a page of the "No page to link for this school" on the fraternity lists? While there is no guarantee that having a GLO makes them notable (I'm looking at you, Jessamine Female Institute on List of Chi Omega chapters), it would at least be worth considering.Naraht (talk) 15:33, 31 August 2023 (UTC)

I think that would be helpful. I recently noted the missing Chevy Chase Seminary article when working on the list of Phi Mu chapters. There were a great many of these, some identified in the Baird's Archive and some not. There were a couple hundred or so of these finishing schools, typically a single building, serving the female population during the 1930s and 1940s. A portion were business trade schools - secretarial - and the rest appear to have been more formal finishing schools. Jax MN (talk) 16:05, 31 August 2023 (UTC)
Another, related list that would be helpful would be a list of "coordinate" schools, which were the associated women's colleges that were often linked to a specific men's institution. Some have merged, some remain women's only. The Seven Sisters (colleges) is a start. I just noticed another one, while perusing Rublamb's excellent work building out the Alpha Xi Delta list. Jackson College for Women was a separately managed unit of Tufts until 2002. Jax MN (talk) 19:33, 31 August 2023 (UTC)
It would not take much effort to create a stub or start class article for these schools, assuming that at least one source is available. And they wouldn't be orphans because of the link to the GLO article. If you want to start a list, I will be happy to help. Rublamb (talk) 19:41, 31 August 2023 (UTC)
Here is a start: List of coordinate colleges. (renamed from coordinate campuses) Needs references, and I'm open to a better name for the page. Any other schools to add? Jax MN (talk) 22:52, 31 August 2023 (UTC)
Should this new article be added as a page on our watchlist? Looking for a second opinion. I think it may become a useful resource, like the List of US collegiate yearbooks, and the outcome of Naraht's work on unlinked, often women's institutions. If so, where should I put it? Jax MN (talk) 20:17, 1 September 2023 (UTC)

Unlinked institutions List

NPC

NIC & Former NIC

  • Zeta Beta Tau - Long Island Medical College

Inter-Fraternity Congress

  • Phi Chi (secondary) - Southern University Preparatory School, Greensboro, Alabama
  • Phi Chi (secondary) - Emory University Academy, Oxford, Georgia
  • Theta Kappa Omega - University School for Boys, Atlanta, Georgia
  • Theta Kappa Omega - Marremanack School, New York
  • Theta Kappa Omega - Texas Military College, Terrell, Texas

Professional and honorary

  • Delta Sigma Chi - Universal College of Chiropractic
  • Delta Sigma Chi - Davenport College of Chiropractic
  • Kappa Psi - Cheshire Military Academy
  • Kappa Psi - University College of Medicine (Richmond, VA)
  • Kappa Psi - Maryland Medical College (Baltimore)
  • Kappa Psi - Birmingham Medical College (AL)
  • Kappa Psi - Baltimore College of Physicians & Surgeons
  • Kappa Psi - Fort Worth School of Medicine
  • Mu Phi Epsilon - Atlanta Conservatory of Music (Atlanta, GA) done Rublamb (talk) 06:45, 19 January 2024 (UTC)
  • Mu Phi Epsilon - Columbia School of Music (Chicago, Illinois)
  • Mu Phi Epsilon - Homer Institute of Fine Arts (Kansas City, Missouri)
  • Mu Phi Epsilon - Krueger School of Music (St. Louis, Missouri)
  • Mu Phi Epsilon - MacPhail College of Music (Minneapolis, Minnesota)
  • Mu Phi Epsilon and Phi Mu Alpha Sinfonia - Metropolitan College of Music (Cincinnati, OH)
  • Mu Phi Epsilon - Minneapolis College of Music
  • Mu Phi Epsilon - Pennsylvania College of Music (Meadville, PA)
  • Mu Phi Epsilon - Trigonus (New York City)
  • Mu Phi Epsilon - University Conservatory of Music (Austin, Texas)
  • Mu Phi Epsilon - Von Unschuld University of Music (Washington, D.C.)
  • Mu Phi Epsilon - Washington School of Music (Washington, D.C.)
  • Mu Phi Epsilon - Wolcott Conservatory of Music (Denver, Colorado)
  • Phi Chi - Hospital College of Medicine (Louisville, KY)
  • Phi Chi - Bowdoin Medical College/Medical College of Maine (Brunswick, ME)
  • Phi Chi - University College of Physicians and Surgeons (Baltimore, MD)
  • Phi Chi - Maryland Medical College (Baltimore, Maryland)
  • Phi Chi - Birmingham Medical College (Tuscaloosa, AL)
  • Phi Chi - Chattanooga Medical College (TN)
  • Phi Chi - Louisville and Hospital College (KY)
  • Phi Chi - College of Physicians & Surgeons (St. Louis, MO)
  • Phi Chi - University of Maryland, Baltimore School of Medicine
  • Phi Mu Alpha Sinfonia - American Institute of Applied Art
  • Phi Mu Alpha Sinfonia - Chicago Auditorium Conservatory
  • Phi Mu Alpha Sinfonia - Minneapolis College of Music
  • Pi Mu - Hospital College of Medicine of Louisville
  • Pi Mu - University College of Medicine (Richmond, VA)
  • Psi Chi - Conception Seminary College

Other

  • List of college literary societies - Andalusia College, Pennsylvania
  • List of college literary societies - Guru Nanak Khalsa College for Women, Ludhiana, India
  • List of college literary societies - Illinois Soldiers College, Fulton, Indiana
  • List of college literary societies - Milwaukee Female College, Milwaukee, Wisconsin
  • List of college literary societies - Missionary Institute, Pennsylvania
  • List of college literary societies - St. Augustine College Benicia, California
  • List of college literary societies - St. Joseph College, New York
  • List of college literary societies - Southern University, Greensboro, Alabama
  • List of college literary societies - Stockwell Collegiate Institute, Stockwell, Indiana


I have no idea why EWU isn't linked on KD. It doesn't have a chartering date either. Other than that, there are four in the midwest (KKG(2) and PiBPhi(2) and everything else is south of the Mason Dixon line. with three less an hour from my house (Chevy Chase, and the two in DC).

Note - Galloway Women's College had a sorority chapter and was absorbed by Hendrix College, might deserve a separate article.Naraht (talk) 00:54, 1 September 2023 (UTC)

We certainly could add the two lists together, but there are two distinct classes. Many women's business schools or finishing schools were independent from the start; many of these eventually failed, while some became junior colleges and in some cases four year colleges. The Galloway example is one that sprung up on its own, and later merged. Contrast all these to the coordinate campuses, largely in the NE and South, and always linked to a more well known school prior to the co-ed shift. The "Seven Sisters" were aligned with the Ivy league generally, if not a specific school. Again, the article I just created may be moved or adjusted accordingly. I did not place Galloway in the table yet, as it didn't fit its current description. Have at it... Jax MN (talk) 01:25, 1 September 2023 (UTC)
I recall working on one of the tangential law or business sororities, which, while it previously had a large number of chapters, appeared to vanish suddenly. I never figured out if they were fully dormant, or if they had a few remaining chapters. Each of its schools appeared to be either a for-profit institution or at best, a junior college. My sense then and now is that these hurried off stage with the broadening of co-educational admission at larger schools, reduced emphasis on finishing schools which previously bridged the last years of high school and a first or second year of college (for women), and establishment of many new junior colleges. All probably a result of WWII. Jax MN (talk) 19:18, 1 September 2023 (UTC)
If a college or school eventually merged, there is usually a section we can link to within the article of the surviving institution. So, to me, those might be a lower priority. I keep running across private "academies", "institutes", and military schools that went defunct in the 19th century. These are typically associated with some of the oldest GLOs but have no mention in Wikipedia other than the chapter lists. Same for early medical colleges. Granted, not all have the coverage we found for the Maryland Military and Naval Academy but, if nothing else, it would be helpful for the WP to have the basic info such as dates and locations readily available. Rublamb (talk) 21:38, 1 September 2023 (UTC) Added Rublamb (talk) 22:30, 8 November 2023 (UTC)
The longer version of the list for this project (in my sandbox) now includes more than 80 schools. Although it is not in my nature to create an article that is less than C class, I am beginning to think it would be helpful to create a stub or start a class article for each of these schools, as long as I can find two sources that provide significant coverage. I can always go back and add more content later, but a short article should serve our purposes for now. Especially given that we are one our third year of the substandard chapter list project and now have a much longer list of organizations needing articles. The college project probably has a greater benefit to the Wikipedia community (and is more interesting to me at this time) but is least aligned with our WP. Thoughts? Rublamb (talk) 17:14, 8 January 2024 (UTC)
I think this would be a terrific addition, the addition of missing schools as stubs, at least. Jax MN (talk) 19:30, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

Chapter name listing include actual greek letters.

I've seen some Chapter lists that have the entry look like "Theta (Θ)" . I think it would be better if it was just Theta. Though if kept, it should be checked that all of the Alpha (A) (for example) use a greek alphabet Alpha in the parenthesis rather than a Roman Alphabet A.Naraht (talk) 14:12, 14 October 2023 (UTC)

Thanks for addressing this. I always feel guilty about removing the letters! Rublamb (talk) 14:29, 14 October 2023 (UTC)
@Jax MN, this was what I was referring to. Rublamb (talk) 21:17, 14 October 2023 (UTC)
Also, I've seen this in F/S at a college in tables, for example "Alpha Phi Alpha Beta Epsilon (ΒΕ)".Naraht (talk) 22:01, 14 October 2023 (UTC)
Personally, I'm not concerned that some groups have inserted a custom column with the Greek letters of their chapter names, or added these after the English version. Some GLOs may find this helpful for teaching Greek letters. Jax MN (talk) 22:55, 14 October 2023 (UTC)

PFA Membership.

Today, someone edited Alpha Zeta (professional) and removed the affiliation of PFA as well as changing the city of HQ. My instant response was to revert that part of the change, but now I'm much less sure on how to verify that. The *only* want that seems to list *current* members of the PFA includes all of the associate groups (mostly city tourism organizations like "Visit Jacksonville!"). That is at https://www.professionalfraternity.org/Events/fraternal-member-listing#!/ which I can't figure out how to get there from the main page from www.professionalfraternity.org . It is really broken (Alpha Phi Omega shows up three times) and it can be only seen 10 entries in a row.

I realize this is probably still the best way to find out membership in the PFA, but I'm letting people know how *messed up* it is now. And Alpha Zeta isn't there at all, so I guess it should be left there. I do wonder how many members have left and in the case where multiple entries are currently showing up, whether they'd even get them all if a group left the PFA... Naraht (talk) 19:12, 19 October 2023 (UTC)

Non-student groups with infobox fraternity

I went looking for groups using infobox fraternity (either capitalization) and add the Category:Student Organization established in 1234 (or whatever the year was). After updating a few that were missing, I found that there are eight that I didn't feel comfortable calling Student Organization. Could people please look at the ones left in https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?search=insource%3A%2F%5BIi%5Dnfobox+%5BFf%5Draternity%2F+-%22Student+organizations+established+in%22&title=Special:Search&profile=advanced&fulltext=1&ns0=1 and let me know if you agree that these aren't student organizations?Naraht (talk) 02:23, 19 November 2023 (UTC)

My 2 cents:
  1. PEO Sisterhood, began as a student org. The category doesn't distinguish for mission shift. Historically, it was a student org, so keep that cat. The rest are non-student groups.
  2. Kappa Lambda Chi, non-student. Military and service focus (for those just skimming the responses)
  3. Rebekah, non-student, this is an appendant body to the Odd Fellows. changed to organization infobox Rublamb (talk) 06:33, 26 January 2024 (UTC)
  4. Kappa Beta Phi, non-student. It was a parody that became an adult "roast" type of fraternity, a product of student editors' imaginations. May or may not have had college chapters.
  5. Samaritans, non-student, this is also an appendant body to the Odd Fellows. changed to organization infobox Rublamb (talk) 06:40, 26 January 2024 (UTC)
  6. Ogboni, non-student. Likely schismatic Nigerian Christian group.
  7. Rocks, non-student. Military and co-ed, no connection to student origination. changed to organization infobox Rublamb (talk) 06:19, 26 January 2024 (UTC)
  8. Lambda Beta Alpha, non-student. Military and female, no connection to student origination. Jax MN (talk) 09:16, 19 November 2023 (UTC)

Beta Upsilon Chi Founders

Every time I look at Beta Upsilon Chi the names of the founders get pushed below the Infobox. Any ideas on how to keep the list from getting pushed down? Nothing I do with col-break seems to work. Do we need an actual table?Naraht (talk) 10:24, 26 January 2024 (UTC)

I hate weird layouts. My solution to issues like this (with photos too) is to expand the text above the problem. Should be fine now. Rublamb (talk) 17:32, 26 January 2024 (UTC)
Not even close to fine. The text prior to the 18 founders only goes about half way down the infobox. And then the 18 founders starts below the infobox.Naraht (talk) 17:34, 26 January 2024 (UTC)
Hmm. That must be a browser thing, because I see a paragraph below the infobox and, then, the list. Of course, the Wiki Fairy in me says that the page should look good with any browser.... Rublamb (talk) 17:47, 26 January 2024 (UTC)
Just realized a free_label was being used for a fairly long purpose. Removed that from the infobox per a previous talk thread. I also changed the code that makes the list. The new code is not as rigid as the former code which specified size. Rublamb (talk) 17:52, 26 January 2024 (UTC)
Thank you! Naraht (talk) 18:10, 26 January 2024 (UTC)
I think you stumbled on the correct approach for a workaround, Rublamb, with the adjustment to the code that expressed the list. I asked this question at the help desk, here, noting what we had tried. There may be a better, comprehensive answer, but at least this is a solid workaround. Thank you. Jax MN (talk) 18:12, 26 January 2024 (UTC)

Substandard chapter lists (updated again)

This is a working list of articles with substandard or missing chapter lists, which merit the attention of Project editors. For examples of lists, see List of Zeta Psi chapters, List of Beta Theta Pi chapters or the Alpha Delta Phi Society. If you are working on an article, please indicate below. Strike out when the article is fixed. Jax MN (talk) 21:34, 27 December 2022 (UTC)

Note that this list had been much longer; editors have reposted it after removing the completed projects. Jax MN (talk) 19:44, 6 January 2024 (UTC)

Rublamb (talk) 07:47, 6 January 2024 (UTC)

Consistency of Names - Category:Lists_of_chapters_of_United_States_student_societies_by_college

OK. For standardization of Category:Lists_of_chapters_of_United_States_student_societies_by_college. Rublamb, you indicated you preferred "List of XYZ University fraternities and sororities". I'd actually prefer "List of Fraternities and Sororities at XYZ University". The question is whether we keep things like "List of Massachusetts Institute of Technology fraternities, sororities, and ILGs" and "University of Kentucky student life" in the category. Or to put in another way, if the article also includes groups that would never have ended up in Baird's, should it still be in the cat?Naraht (talk) 21:29, 14 October 2023 (UTC)

We should not update those that include more organizations than GLO--good catch. I don't feel strongly about naming preference, other than it is shorter. As in, "List of XYZ University alumni" is preferred over "List of alumni at XYZ University" or "List of Delta Delta Delta alumnae" is preferred over "List of alumnae of Delta Delta Delta." Rublamb (talk) 21:39, 14 October 2023 (UTC)
In the case of MIT, three of the five active ILGs were created from Greek Letter chapters with long histories, which later opted to become independent. Hence it is reasonable to include them on that list. I don't know that forcing consistency here is advantageous. On the category page some of the lists are forced to alphabetize by the name of the school, which is helpful. Down the road, separate pages may be useful for big systems, including a GLO page and a page for other student life organizations. Maybe some would warrent a third page for secret societies. --But only a few robust campuses will have enough content and citations to warrant two or three separate pages.
As to the placement of the word University, before or after Fraternities and Sororities, I don't mind either style, but we should note any other common hatnoted articles, like lists of sports team pages. Would these offer a precedent? Jax MN (talk) 00:40, 16 October 2023 (UTC)
I don't think there is any issue with what is included in the category. I meant that we would not want to change the article name to "List of XYZ University fraternities and sororities" it includes more than GLOs. The phrase "student organizations" or "student societies" works fine there. My desire for naming consistency probably comes from my librarian background. Having a standardized naming format makes it easier for people to find information. Otherwise, we are depending on default sort instructions which may or may not be included in each article. You are correct that a given college might have several of these subpages, meaning that the college name first (before the phrase fraternity and sorority) would be preferable in the long run. But it also might mean that we should consult WP:UNI before proceeding on changing the name of any article. Rublamb (talk) 16:03, 17 October 2023 (UTC)
After hearing nothing from WP:UNI, I went ahead and updated most of these. I still need to go back and update the ledes. We have numerous redirects from articles that no longer exist that now go to subsections of university articles that have been reduced to "This college has several fraternities and sororities." or the like. If it weren't such a hassle to delete redirect pages, I would say we should get rid of these as they aren't really helpful. Thoughts? Rublamb (talk) 03:56, 23 October 2023 (UTC)
I probably need some help on this project; my intention was just to update the lede to reflect the new article title. So far, all three of the articles that I have worked with lacked any sources and had not been updated in a while. I am using the Almanac and the Greek Life section of the university's website to update. I also am going to US New & World Report to get the percentage of students who are members of fraternities and sororities for the lede section. I think that covers the need for significant coverage.
Question--with the information in the Almanac, we can also include former organizations and dates. Is this worth doing? It will take longer but would provide added information that will probably keep these articles from being challenged as just a list of organizations. Also, should the defunct groups be in a separate section? The first article I updated with dates and defunct groups was easy because all groups, including inactive, were already in one table. However, most of these articles are organized by an umbrella association. There could be an active and inactive subsection under each umbrella. Of course, the university section of the Almanac does not include the umbrella group, so that is more work. Rublamb (talk) 18:58, 24 October 2023 (UTC)
I fully support the idea of including dormant groups. As to format, List tables are OK, but this exact issue is why I settled on the style evident in the U of MN page, the Cornell page (before it was adjusted to a table, to Trine's list, to MIT's list and Wooster's. While this style hides some of the field information in references, it's not too hard to get to. More importantly, it graphically highlights the active groups (bold), separating those that changed names or died, and fairly cleanly shows the predecessor linkages. It ain't perfect, and I have a bias towards this style, but will work with the results of whatever dialog we have here. I wrote the Minnesota and rewrote the Cornell pages back in 2014, fairly early in my tenure as an editor. I had a lot of catching up to do as Naraht had been active for about eight years by that time. But these two big list pages were a valuable lesson in editing. Jax MN (talk) 00:40, 24 October 2023 (UTC)
Of course, there is always the GA status article, Dartmouth College fraternities and sororities, as an example in narrative form. That would be ideal, but time-consuming to create. List of Colgate University societies is the article I updated that was already in a combined table, so it was easy to add our usual date range and status column, bold active chapters, and add defunct groups Somehow, that table feels more substantial than the lists of the other articles (but not as easy to comprehend). Maybe this is because I am not as convinced that umbrella groups are important or meaningful to the average reader and/or are really the best way to organize this information. Certainly, the Almanac and Baird's never made such distinctions. But I know I am probably in the minority on this one. I don't hate your format but find the changed name section confusing as some of these are mergers rather than name changes. Obviously, a table with an efn would better serve this content and would also provide a way to include groups that are not part of the umbrella org system. What do you think about including honor societies, secret societies, and professional GLOs in these articles? Again, I have already run across this content being included. Rublamb (talk) 12:38, 25 October 2023 (UTC)
That Colgate list that you circulated is quite interesting. The way the honor societies are noted for their affinity is helpful. Mulling it over, I think that style, where GLOs are listed along with literary and oration societies is an overall effective presentation. I think it would work best with smaller schools; the Big Ten schools each presently have 1,000 to 1,300 student groups, so if implemented for Michigan or Minnesota, such a list might become cumbersome or fail to the "Wikipedia is not a directory" complaint, subject to deletion. --You raised a point that by listing inactive groups, it becomes a historical record, and helps mollify that concern about being a directory. So for large schools I prefer that we divide by type. Listing the umbrella groups as a distinct field is less important to readers, I suppose, versus the more helpful dividing them by type. Hence, as a practical matter, someone searching to join a standard academic fraternity, with housing, would prefer not to have the distraction of sifting through the groups that are markedly different from his aims. The same for a Latina who is not interested in a GLO with housing, but which specifically allows her to celebrate Hispanic heritage with a tight group of sisters. Jax MN (talk) 15:11, 25 October 2023 (UTC)
I agree that this is not going to be a one size fits all kind of project. Unless we go for the full on Dartmouth approach. I like and dislike the Colgate table; there is weirdness in mixing proper literary groups with GLO but at least the data is sourced and current. For now, I am doing a quick fix to all of the ledes (to match the article title). Next, I will make sure all have sources and try to update the lists of active groups in whatever style is currently in use. Adding the dates and all former orgs will be the final step, giving plenty of time to think about it. Unless you get into working on this--which would be fine by me. I am still creating the world's longest chapter list, so this is a diversion rather than a main project. Rublamb (talk) 17:51, 25 October 2023 (UTC)
I forgot to mention that I have a critical view of the Dartmouth or RPI model. These early versions of what became our Project's "List" articles were set up with one or more paragraphs for each chapter, which have had a tendency over 15 years to gather puffery and bloat, and to mistakenly inspire new editors to attempt to use the articles to push their biased marketing information at readers. It encourages a game of one-upmanship Jax MN (talk) 19:24, 25 October 2023 (UTC)

Amount of Leadership listed

How much of the National Leadership for the GLO is appropriate to list (not what is minimal needed, but rather beyond which it should be trimmed)

  • National President
  • National VP
  • Other officers national in scope
  • Officers in charge of a geographical subset of the GLO ("Regional President", etc.)
  • Officers assisting in supervision of a geographical subset ("Regional VP", etc.)
  • Executive Director (Hired or not)

Naraht (talk) 12:44, 31 October 2023 (UTC)

@Naraht, the exective director makes sense to me (is there a spot in the infobox for this?). I guess the current president makes sense as well. However, the others feel like directory info rather than enclopedic content. But let's take this to the next level. What about those lists of past presidents that many articles have? When working in the articles on cities (including one that I took to GA status), I was instructed by members of that WP that a list of all past mayors is not encyclopedic and that only the current and notable individuals should be listed. Notable being defined as having a Wikipedia article. Certainly, a mayor is more notable than a fraternity president, meaning that these long lists should not be included and past presidents should be included only if notable.
This is a really good question, and whatever we decide should be included in our instructions for articles so that we can be consistent and fair in enforcement. Rublamb (talk) 14:58, 31 October 2023 (UTC)
Thank you for bringing this up. I generally favor including the current Executive Director or national secretary, plus the national president. For larger societies I'd allow expansion of this list to include others who are presently active: regional presidents, for example, but would not extend this to minor titles. Some articles include past presidents, which, to my thinking, is puffery. I don't see the need to include lists of past leaders. Jax MN (talk) 15:17, 31 October 2023 (UTC)
A few groups keep the immediate past national president on the board, so *maybe* if that is there for a list, but I agree, for a 150 year old group, a table that includes who was president from 1912-1914, doesn't seem appropriate. I wonder if it would be too broad to include anyone currently with a vote on revoking a charter (if this can be done without a decision of the National Convention).Naraht (talk) 17:31, 31 October 2023 (UTC)
Where multiple names could help are in clarifying the succession order. If the president of an organization has been Richie Rich for some years, and he is suddenly retired, placing bookends around him could be helpful. Deputy Grand President may thus be listed, as well as Immediate Past President. I don't have a problem with that, as it provided direct value. I also think that some of these groups listed their presidents from 100 years ago to provide historical filler. Jax MN (talk) 17:48, 31 October 2023 (UTC)

Article in draftspace

This weekend, I have been fixing some of the articles that were in draftspace. Phi Alpha Pi is now published. It consisted of just a few phrases and is now a local, but seemed worthwhile given its long history. Also, I found enough secondary sources to please just about any editor. I just finished Draft:Auburn University Greek life which was moved from the mainspace in October 2023 because it lacked sources. I have added sources for everything except a couple of complete dates that I grabbed from other articles that lacked sources. Although there are now sources, there is not a single independent source that meets the standard significant coverage other than the Almanac. I think the solution is to treat this article as a list as the standards are slightly different; I have added that WP and class accordingly. Can someone take a look and see if you agree that this is ready to publish? I know it still needs dts and could use a photo or two. Thanks. Rublamb (talk) 23:41, 18 February 2024 (UTC)

My issue with this is unrelated to either DTS or photos, but the question of range. I think that we all can agree that an active chapter of Tri-Delta, Alpha Tau Omega or Alpha Kappa Alpha belongs in such a list, the question is how far should it go, both in actives vs. inactive chapters, Active vs. Defunct and Social -> Professional -> Recognition -> Honor. Or to put it another way, does a chapter of a national sorority that was active under that name for two years a hundred years ago belong there and Phi Beta Kappa not belong.Naraht (talk) 23:30, 19 February 2024 (UTC)
A few groups showed up in the Almanac' that did not fit the existing ordering by council. I added professional and multicultural sections and a few more groups but did not dig deep as I didn't want to spend more time looking (and this was not essential for publication). I probably am not as hung up on whether or not a group fits into traditional councils as some might be. The challenge in setting limits for this type of article is the groups that cross the line between social and honorary or professional. As we have discussed elsewhere, the presence of a chapter house is a good clue that a group belongs on this type of list, but that does not work for a campus like Auburn where sororities do not have chapter houses. Other articles of this ilk do include active, inactive, and some professional groups—so we are not covering new territory here. My only caution is: don't ask too many questions or we will be back in the unresolved discussion on the format used for this type of article. This had tables already, so I just went with the flow. Rublamb (talk) 23:59, 19 February 2024 (UTC)
On another note, if I'm reading the various articles correctly, the chapter of Phi Alpha Chi is now on its fifth sorority.Naraht (talk) 23:30, 19 February 2024 (UTC)
What is the deal with that? And why did I then move on to the original Kappa Alpha (Kuklos Adelphon) ‎ which is equally puzzling? I suspect you left the latter to torture me. Rublamb (talk) 00:02, 20 February 2024 (UTC)
Outside duties intrude, thus I haven't traced all of these issues. However, Naraht brought up Phi Alpha Chi, alluding I think to the Berkeley chapter, now apparently a unit of Delta Zeta. I prefer to include the entire lineage of these chapters as they evolve, both to provide the existing chapters clarity on their roots and the sometimes fascinating story of the resilience of a particular chapter, and to offer to family researchers clarity on where grandma or grandpa was a member. We can note the predecessor groups within the frame of an EFN and link to articles about dormant groups, noting where these may have jumped "class" from an original professional group to a social organization. The fact of building ownership, often continuing through a withdrawal or merger make these stories even more interesting. Naraht, which item were you referring to, regarding a chapter of Phi Beta Kappa that jumped loyalties a century ago? Jax MN (talk) 00:26, 20 February 2024 (UTC)
Rublamb, I see the issue you raise. Where I have made these campus lists, I struggled with this same issue, and for Minnesota, MIT, Cornell, Trine and Wooster resolved to list separately and immediately below the active chapters two lists: Chapters whose names changed, noting their descendants, and Dormant groups, which were essentially the end-of-the-line for that particular chapter. In some cases, a group that changed names once or twice is listed under both names as having changed names, and a parenthetical remark suggests the group to which it withdrew, bold if still active. But the EFNs also note in more detail the successors, showing continuity. I think it is a cleaner presentation this way, helpful for tracing linkage, and is the reason I have been reluctant to place the "Names changed" and "Dormant" groups into a table format, but only for campus listings. (Not for individual national organization lists.) Jax MN (talk) 00:38, 20 February 2024 (UTC)
As long as everyone thinks the basic content and sources are okay, I will restore this article to the main space. I don't want to go down the rabbit hole of Name Changed vs Dormant/Merger (can one do the former without doing the latter when looking at an individual chapter?). My short answer on what groups to include or what format to use is this: there are so few of these articles and each campus is unique enough that we should probably let the situation dictate what we do. For example, we might say no local groups, but then there is Yale and UVa. We might say no literary societies, but at UNC these were the start of it all. We might say no honor societies, but could one cover William and Mary without discussing Phi Beta Kappa? Then, there are the campuses with fantastic or historic chapter houses, but others that have none worth mentioning. Does the rule of "it depends" make sense here? Rublamb (talk) 01:12, 20 February 2024 (UTC)

Other books to Wikisource

Right now, as far as I can tell, the only document related to this project on Wikisource is the 1879 Baird's. Is there any else that should be added?

  • Other editions of Baird's up to whatever the most recent version is that is out of copyright? (is that 1923, 1927 or 1930?)
  • Any of Banta's Greek Exchange?
  • I think there was a book on google that I can't find prior to 1940 that was basically for sororities (don't know if it is Public domain yet)
  • Any other ideas?

Naraht (talk) 15:52, 28 December 2023 (UTC)

See if this list helps: The Online Books Page Greek letter societies -- United States Rublamb (talk) 01:42, 29 December 2023 (UTC)
So, based on this

Thanx for the list.Naraht (talk) 03:42, 29 December 2023 (UTC)

Connected Notability.

With our chapter lists and member lists, are there issues with Notability? There were notability templates added to List of Alpha Phi Omega (Philippines) chapters and alumni associations‎ and List of Alpha Phi Omega members‎. I guess I have COI on those specifically, so someone else want to remove?Naraht (talk) 05:21, 3 January 2024 (UTC)

The issue with the Philippines may be a reliance on primary sources but I would think a primary template/notice would make more sense. This is why I am reluctant to split off chapter lists when there is a lack of secondary sources. Rublamb (talk) 07:26, 6 January 2024 (UTC)
For the record, Naraht, I do not see any problem whatsoever with a purported COI regarding your edits to Alpha Phi Omega pages. You are an experienced editor, and know how to avoid biased language. The COI rule is to place brackets around inexperienced editors, or those whose contributions trend toward promotion. Fixed the Philippine list of chapters. You've been more than patient with the editor who questioned notability. Jax MN (talk) 19:43, 6 January 2024 (UTC)

Gamma Theta Upsilon chapter list

https://gammathetaupsilon.org/chapters.html has chapter, chartering date and school and in the map above whether it is active or inactive. But about 300 chapters, and I can't figure out how to slice it off of the website and drop it into excel to automate at least the beginning.Naraht (talk) 21:53, 20 January 2024 (UTC)

They do have a merged chapter, though they name the schools wrong. The White and Negro Teachers' Colleges in DC had separate charters which then merged and got a new charter when the schools merged.Naraht (talk) 21:59, 20 January 2024 (UTC)
Special:Permalink/1197709223 - if you want me to delete a column or two let me know, I'll hold on to the excel file for a bit. Primefac (talk) 16:54, 21 January 2024 (UTC)
Perfect. I will add this to the article. Rublamb (talk) 18:56, 21 January 2024 (UTC)
Not sure if it makes sense to include the departments and we still need to go back to the map to get dates of inactivity. But deleting a column like that is very easy using the Visual editor (adding and subtracting columns to tables is one of the *few* things I use the visual editor for).Naraht (talk) 19:02, 21 January 2024 (UTC)
I have the basic table ready, with status. Still needs links for college names and locations. Also, closure dates for inactive chapters. Thanks to @Primefac for the conversion (which I could not get to work either) and to @Naraht for finding the chapter list. I know this list is long enough for a stand-alone article but it lacks the sources for notability. Rublamb (talk) 20:50, 21 January 2024 (UTC)
When I reviewed JSTOR I found perhaps a hundred various yearbooks that published a page or two in each issue to showcase Gamma Theta Upsilon. With the rather substantive 4-page Baird's 20th reference to cite, the national website that lists newer (post-1991) chapters, and numerous yearbooks, aren't these enough to support a standalone article? It seems to me that the precedent allowing this is clear. Jax MN (talk) 22:58, 21 January 2024 (UTC)
I had not checked my print Baird's yet. If it is in Baird's, I can go ahead and create a stand-alone article. Without Baird's, yearbooks won't help in an AfD as they would equate to the college's website to the deletionists. Rublamb (talk) 23:18, 21 January 2024 (UTC)
Yep; I added it to the page when I was first alerted of it being tagged for no references beyond the national website. I added two. Jax MN (talk) 23:43, 21 January 2024 (UTC)
I removed the notice. Rublamb (talk) 23:51, 21 January 2024 (UTC)
Itis done; both articles have the sources they need thanks to @Jax MN. Also, links are now included in the list. Still needs closure dates but I didn't see that in my edition of Baird's. Rublamb (talk) 02:29, 22 January 2024 (UTC)
I have added dts (I finally broke down and created rules in AutoWikiBrowser, not perfect, but I can't figure out the three that didn't properly fire off). Also, the only source that I've found for the closure dates is the GaThUp website.Naraht (talk) 14:02, 22 January 2024 (UTC)
For the merged chapters, both were formed at the segregated teachers colleges, with the one at the Negro school (Miner) being about three months before the merger of Miner and Wilson (the white school) into District of Columbia Teachers College (which then merged with Federal City College & Washington Technical Institute to become UDC).Naraht (talk) 22:05, 22 January 2024 (UTC)
Thanks. I was making that jump based on college names and added the efn. Had not caught the third school in play. Rublamb (talk) 22:14, 22 January 2024 (UTC)
NP. There are eleven(!) entries in the former names in the infobox for the University of the District of Columbia and in this case, it partially revolved around when during 1955 the charter came vs. the merger. (and that doesn't count when they split off the UDC-Community College relatively recently.Naraht (talk) 13:49, 23 January 2024 (UTC)
The Executive Secretary for Gamma Theta Upsilon just sent me an updated chapter list, with "a dozen corrections" that will also be made to their website. I had asked him for any notes with the years when chapters had closed, but that was not included with this file. He mentioned that, like other honor societies, "closures" tend to be sporadic and short-term while another faculty sponsor is found. For GTU, they note a chapter as inactive if it doesn't host an installation within a two-year period. Jax MN (talk) 17:37, 23 January 2024 (UTC)

I love the group effort on this! Rublamb (talk) 18:48, 23 January 2024 (UTC)

Funny, the Exec Sec actually copied our recently updated Gamma Theta Upsilon list from the Wikipedia page, including our references, then edited it and sent it back to me. I have to go through that list and compare, item by item. He didn't highlight the edits. Jax MN (talk) 19:51, 23 January 2024 (UTC)
That annoying feeling when you try to google to augment what you just added to a wikipedia chapter list and you find that google has already read wikipedia and added it your search results. Now, I understand why people making Atlases added paper towns.Naraht (talk) 19:57, 23 January 2024 (UTC)

Phi Delta Kappa

Was working on the chapter list for the education group and realized that there is some strangeness. There is the coed Phi Delta Kappa (originally all male) as well as the National Sorority of Phi Delta Kappa (sorority). Both are education groups. Any ideas? Rublamb (talk) 08:25, 29 January 2024 (UTC)

Rublamb, completely separate organizations apparently. https://www.nspdk.org/history (the webpage for the women's group) shows no relation to the 1906 group. The 1906 group was apparently also all white for quite some time and the NSPDK, from the founders picture and the honoraries, is probably historically African American.Naraht (talk) 15:32, 29 January 2024 (UTC)
I had wondered if it was one of those cases where there were both fraternity and sorority that were related somehow. Or, since the fraternity appears to be learning toward being an org and not a frat, if there had been a split of some sort. With your findings, I will make a basic article for the sorority (since I already made a chapter list). Now, the remaining problem appears to be that the fraternity once used Greek letter names for its chapters but changed to place names at some point, maybe as part of the rebranding to an association. I did not do a lot of digging for inactive chapters (such as looking at Baird's), but found references to traditional naming structures in the article's text. Are we good with the list as is, or do we want to keep it on the "to do" list as lacking historic chapters? Rublamb (talk) 15:40, 29 January 2024 (UTC)
FYI, building on your research and page creation I put together a hatnote for all three of this name. I just wrote to the sorority's national offices for answers to several specific questions, and have asked for a list of chapters, schools and dates. I will update y'all when I hear back. I was able to upload a crest and created assumed color swatches for the sorority. I looked into the school name and am confident that the relink in the infobox is correct, but have asked for a confirmation from the sorority regardless. To the colors, the 'red' is quite clearly a scarlet, and the gold is a medium gold, not metallic nor the "Crayola" type of light gold, but and not as dark as Goldenrod. --So I assumed Poppy Gold from among the available options. There was no further detail about this on their website, but these should be good as a placeholder until they send confirmation... Surprisingly, there was no listing for either of the surviving educational fraternities in Baird's, only the dormant general fraternity. Thus we still have questions. Jax MN (talk) 21:26, 29 January 2024 (UTC)
Technical points: I have a list of several thousand colors in hex codes that I refer to, but that list is not exhaustive of all the options. Some fraternities are quite specific on branding and colors, with either hex or Pantone colors specified in a branding guide, others aren't specific, if they designate colors at all. I sometimes sample directly off of a good copy of their crest, possibly finding an official name for that color from a backsearch if a particular hex code has a color name associated with it.
I saw that I was incorrect in the link I provided for the school name. Several states have an article that lists all current and former schools; it may be an option to clarify what exact school was the birthplace of the sorority. Jax MN (talk) 21:40, 29 January 2024 (UTC)
Thanks for helping. I slapped this together quickly this morning while packing for trip. Amazing that there were three groups with the same name at the same time, with the two eduation groups being pretty significant. Just shows how seldom the racial line was crossed back in the day. Rublamb (talk) 21:52, 29 January 2024 (UTC)
Now back from my travel and looked at this again. After reading the sorority's history on several chapter websites, I do not think its founding was associated with a specific college. Instead, it looks like this was originally a city-based group. This means that the founding date could be correct but that the sorority later associated with the college after it opened several years later. Don't know how to manage that in the text, except to remove references to the college (as we don't know which is correct and when the affiliation happened). Also, I have added some chapter charter dates, as found on chapter websites. Rublamb (talk) 15:26, 11 February 2024 (UTC)
I have been going through the links for Phi Delta Kappa across Wikipedia, finding a number that were referencing the sorority, not the fraternity. Lacking a source or context, is easy to tell if it is an African American women in the 1950s; not as easy if her career went into the modern era. I made a couple of guesses based on fame and the lack of inclusion in the sorority's list of honory members. I believe I have all of the people checked. I have not sorted through the links for awards/honors, scholarships, and publications. Most are going to be the men's group but not always. If you are bored and looking for something to do... Rublamb (talk) 02:00, 30 January 2024 (UTC)

Northrop College

I think we dealt with that before, Northrop College is actually Northrop University, right?Naraht (talk) 13:07, 5 February 2024 (UTC)

It appears so. I don't believe the school was ever formally named as a college. The name appears to stem from the Northrop family of aerospace pioneers. Our list of missing schools had an error in the name, as "Northrup", but I corrected that to "Northrop". Jax MN (talk) 16:59, 5 February 2024 (UTC)
So we can update/change List of Sigma Phi Epsilon chapters, right? (And I mispelled my initial entry twice. :( )Naraht (talk) 21:12, 5 February 2024 (UTC)
Seven occurences of Northrup in the Northrop University article. (Head bang) Naraht (talk) 21:38, 5 February 2024 (UTC)
Thanks - Good catch; I just fixed them. I ran into a similar problem when editing the unrelated Cyrus Northrop article. Jax MN (talk) 21:45, 5 February 2024 (UTC)
I believe I am the guilty party on the misspellings in the Northrop University article. Sigh... On a positive note, I did extensive research into its history at the time. I did not find that it was ever officially called Northrop (or Northrup) College. Rublamb (talk) 15:53, 11 February 2024 (UTC)

Campus list style

While I recognize the effort that went in to changing a page I developed, frankly, I don't think it's an improvement. No information was lost in the new presentation, but I miss the compact nature of the earlier version. I also strongly prefer to list campus chapters in order of formation, not in alphabetical order. See these examples:

Anyone want to weigh in on this? Jax MN (talk) 08:22, 28 October 2023 (UTC)

With lists of fraternties and sororities, such as List of social fraternities and sororities and Professional fraternities and sororities, we had previously decided to sort by alphabetical order. I made these changes following that pattern. I think alphabetical order is easier/more logical for average users and also helps avoid duplicates in the case of date issues (this happens) or problems with no known date. However, if these lists were moved into tables, it would solve the order issue; part of the reason I removed the Greek letters at the head of each entry was getting this ready for tables. (I was just pondering if these active/inactive are too long to be merged in this case). I also thought that using Greek letters instead of the spelled-out names in the Name Changed section was confusing for average readers. Yes, the Greek letters were associated with the spelled-out name in the section and the section above, but it was still forcing readers to use a "key" to understand the content. As we have discussed above on this page, Greek letters alone are not ideal because it forces knowledge that many do no have. Finally, having looked at most of the articles of this type in the past couple of days, the prior format was an anomaly, rather than the norm. The division of groups into three categories (active, name changes, inactive) is only found in a couple of articles within all of our WP's lists, and we almost never have lists with Greek letters as the first thing in the name section/column. I do get that you were trying to solve a complex data set when previously working on this article; however, the option to use dynamic/sortable tables significantly reduces problems and might make the content easier to read. Rublamb (talk) 18:39, 28 October 2023 (UTC)
@Naraht, I know format of data is not your thing, but could you weigh in on using Greek letters vs. speling out the organization's name? It would help to have a third opinion here and I think that is the biggest issue. Rublamb (talk) 15:01, 31 October 2023 (UTC)
I prefer two column (the single column seems to waste quite a bit of space, and I like the Greek Letters. I'm leaning toward alphabetical since that would help people looking for it, but I'm closer to neutral on that.Naraht (talk) 17:33, 31 October 2023 (UTC)
What about table vs. lists? My plan was to more this into a table, but I don't want to go to that trouble if I am the outlier here. Rublamb (talk) 17:36, 31 October 2023 (UTC)
Again, I'm strongly in support of the list format for the school GLOs pages. The default, listing by age, is a reasonable nod to how campus Greek Systems were formed. --A two-year old Acacia chapter shouldn't default to the top of the list, versus a 150-year old pioneering Delta Phi chapter. Regarding the list model, I also like the highly visible way that predecessor groups may be traced on these larger campuses. While I like tables elsewhere, here, they seem antiseptic, in a way. Eh, I've made my points. Naraht or others? Jax MN (talk) 17:56, 31 October 2023 (UTC)
@Jax MN, Just came across this post from several months ago Talk:List of Cornell University fraternities and sororities#Fraternities, reordered by date of campus founding that has an example of a varient format. Rublamb (talk) 22:34, 31 October 2023 (UTC)
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