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Archive 10←Archive 13Archive 14Archive 15

Undoing edits for 104.60.196.157

This IP user has done nothing but mark chapters of Hispanic/Latino Fraternities as inactive. It is the reason that we (reasonably) marked Tau Phi Sigma as completely inactive. (And I've found at least two chapters of Tau Phi Sigma that had rush weeks in Fall of 2022). Currently left to do (would appreciate help)

Naraht (talk) 17:11, 13 July 2024 (UTC)

Differentiating the local tapped organizations.

It appears that there are slightly different types of local organizations that we might want to differentiate in the infobox to determine which ones we are *never* going to see websites for. There are some where no one should know who are members other than those who are already members, there are ones where membership is not revealed until after leaving school and there are those where it is public while they are in school. I *think* only the last one is in any way likely to have a website, so is there something in the infobox that could be looked at/set to avoid the maintenance category? (This is sort of half here, half in the infobox, but if we come to a decision...)Naraht (talk) 00:02, 3 August 2024 (UTC)

Here are my suggestions:
  • Type: Secret society
  • Status: Defunct
  • Type: Senior society (rarely have websites)
  • Type: Confraterity (rarely have websites)
Rublamb (talk) 20:57, 3 August 2024 (UTC)
  • Status: Currently defunct or merged or anything other than Active.
  • Type: (and this is where I'm going to want to see the parameter list for August. I think we have some offshoots that are combinations of this, but the thing where we may some of the "Skull and Bones" types that are actually listed as "Honor Society", we'll have to change them to something similar to that. All of the "Tomb groups" at Yale should have the same type and we should probably use that as a guide.Naraht (talk) 21:09, 3 August 2024 (UTC)
I worked on the secret societies / senior societies when we moved those to our domain. At Yale, not all tomb groups are secret societies as some are senior societies or even traditional GLO. I am not saying I fixed all of them, but think I hit most when adding infoboxes and sources. Rublamb (talk) 21:15, 3 August 2024 (UTC)

Secret Societies at Yale

(hit an ec here, but was working on this) Type values for the entries in Category:Secret societies at Yale

Naraht (talk) 21:36, 3 August 2024 (UTC)

I'll deal with the infoboxes on the last two. Today I have been adding infoboxes and switching from org boxes. Rublamb (talk) 19:22, 5 August 2024 (UTC)

Official website

I've seen that for some "scattered" fraternities, where less than half a dozen chapters have websites and there really is no national website, that a chapter website has been designated with the template:official website. I don't think that is appropriate and want to remove it. I'm fine with keeping a chapter website in the infobox and in external links, but it really doesn't feel appropriate to use the official website template (example: Gamma Epsilon Tau).Naraht (talk) 19:15, 28 August 2024 (UTC)

I agree that we should not use the official website template for a chapter website--and by our new guidelines we would never use this template in the infobox. However, I would only use a chapter website in external links, not the infobox. The exception would be if there was only active chapter remaining. Rublamb (talk) 20:36, 28 August 2024 (UTC)
So in the case above, nothing in the infobox and url template in the EL. Sounds good. Naraht (talk) 22:05, 28 August 2024 (UTC)

Archived Official website

Similarly, I don't think that a link to archive.org of a previous website should be counted as official, though OK in EL. (Changing Sigma Alpha Delta based on that, though I will see if I can find.) Naraht (talk) 15:53, 29 August 2024 (UTC)

I agree that archived websites should not be linked in the infobox Rublamb (talk) 16:39, 29 August 2024 (UTC)
For this discussion... Sometimes websites lapse, or are infected with a trojan downloader, but the organization appears to be continuing. I've seen this occur dozens of times, even for mid-size nationals. What I've done previously is to note the URL of the website, but <!--comment--> it out, so that a bad website doesn't infect anyone else. But I leave the bread crumb trail so that a fraternity volunteer can note the problem and fix it. The fact of my edit will spark someone to check that an edit has been made, and they'll read the comment. I also sometimes will note the problem in the To Do list, or on the Talk page. Jax MN (talk) 17:09, 29 August 2024 (UTC)
When this happens, I use Wayback to get a clean copy of the website and add useful details to the article (with the archived website becoming a source). That way, we don't miss useful content and save a cleancopy of the website. There are many smaller professonal orgs that currently lack a national website, mostly because they have gone with a decentrolized organizational structures. It is also an issue with smaller Latino and Asian groups that have dropped the national website as chapters go inactive. Rublamb (talk) 19:13, 29 August 2024 (UTC)

History of HS Sororities

I have been working on Psi Iota Xi (which started in the 19th century as a high school sorority and later became a community-based sorority) and found something of interest. In July 1907, the National Pan-Hellenic Conference passed a new rule that said no one could join one of their organizations who had previously been a member of a high school sorority. This may help explain why many of the high school sororities died in the early 20th century. Rublamb (talk) 00:30, 29 August 2024 (UTC)

Closest thing to this I've seen recently is some discussion of the relationship of the High School related groups to some of the Philippines Fraternity. For example, going from being a member of Scouts Royale Brotherhood (which was started by Alpha Phi Omega brothers and still *somewhat* related) would be unlikely to be accepted in Tau Gamma Phi.Naraht (talk) 15:44, 29 August 2024 (UTC)
This was a really interesting catch. Rublamb, I alerted Fran about this, in case she wishes to offer a blog post about it for her website. NPC leadership, back then, over a Century ago, appear to have been far more protective of their turf. Now, such manipulation could be seen as either unduly so, or simply as a quaint example of different times. But nevertheless it would be of interest to many. Jax MN (talk) 17:32, 29 August 2024 (UTC)

How far away from College Fraternities...

I'm wondering just how far from College Fraternities this project will go. Given some of the recent additions of American Fraternal Orders, I'm wondering people's opinions on whether this project (and the infobox fraternity template should cover the adult fraternal orders like Loyal Order of Moose, Lions Clubs International, Benevolent and Protective Order of Elks and for that matter Freemasonry. Naraht (talk) 15:04, 2 September 2024 (UTC)

The active members of this Project have done (IMO) excellent work in standardizing our presentation of Greek Letter Organization and related pages. You've added value to Wikipedia. Not to bloviate, but that "adding value" bit is the point of our work. My sense is that we should include any organization that has Greek letters in its name, either currently or historically. Clearly the bulk of these will be collegiate-related, yet we add clarity to the subject matter by including the non-collegiate groups in our policing and cleanup. Thus we aid casual readers and researchers in quickly clarifying the nature of each group name. --Who, what, when, where, why, and how.
The Freemasonry group (I don't know if they are a defined Project) are nevertheless quite active. Not as much so the Elks and Moose. By extending our work to these, more from the lens of upkeep versus wholesale and full time management, we add clarity and value. We also are competent and valued partners with the College and University Project. I think supporters of both these types of pages welcome our occasional efforts, as our stuff spills over into their areas of interest. Jax MN (talk) 16:24, 3 September 2024 (UTC)
Somewhere there is probably a definition of the WP's scope but I don't think it is "collegiate only". Probably the biggest overreach was my decision to add collegiate secret/senior societies because WP: Secret Societies was defunct. But I think we all agree that these groups share common characteristics with GLOs: selective membership, rituals, and lifelong membership. We also have a fair number of literary and debating societies which have historic connections to GLO, but are probably not truly fraternal and could be cut.
General non-collegiate fraternal organizations appear to have been included in the WP from the early days or, at least, from before my time. Granted, none of the active WP members are a strong interest in these groups but I have added infoboxes as I work through items on our watchlist. I also have removed the WP tag from community-based groups that don't call themselves fraternal and have open membership and seem to lack ritual and lifetime membership. IMO Rotary, Lions Club, Kiwanis, and Ruritan are clubs/organizations, not fraternities. Elks and Masons seem truly fraternal. Groups like Woodmen of the World are more problematic; formerly a fraternal organization but now an insurance company.
Keeping something under the WP umbrella (on our watchlist and with the talkpage WP tag) and letting it have a Infobox fraternity are not necessarily the same thing. But something to consider as we set policies. That is, if it used to be a fraternity but is now a club or association (we have community-based and collegiate examples of this), should it have an organization infobox instead? If the org changes type, do we automatically drop it from our watchlist? And, since there is a WP:Freemasonry, do we drop all of variations of black and white masons and shriners from our list? Rublamb (talk) 03:48, 6 September 2024 (UTC)
The more I think about it, I would not be against a decision to define WP F&S as only covering groups related to educational institutions in some way, leaving groups not associated or never associated with schools to WP Organizations and WP Freemasonry. My justification would be:
1) Most of the non-collegiate GLOs are smaller and have few secondary sources, meaning they are less notable and not a statistically significant segment of our watchlist
2) The masonic groups are covered by WP Freemasonry which is active and has greater expertise on this subject
3) It would reduce confusion between community-based groups that were "fraternal" meaning men only, but not a fraternity or GLO as such.
4) It would reduce confusion as to whether or not a community-based club belongs under the WP F&S umbrella
5) It would focus the efforts of WP F&S volunteers and more closely align us with WP UNI to recruit new volunteers.
I realize there are downsides to this (one being a US bias), but mostly see positives. Thoughts? Rublamb (talk) 18:22, 7 September 2024 (UTC)
One of the benefits of our - at least - tracking the existence of these non-collegiate groups is that it helps casual readers differentiate between us and them, as we frame their article's language with similar terms and styles. By using the F&S infobox we funnel the descriptive words into a few consistent places, and make searching easier.
Writers and producers will look for name ambiguity when creating fictional fraternities. Our comprehensive list is a good tool to help them avoid trademark problems. For the same reason I like to keep track of dormant societies.
Several non-collegiate groups were once collegiate. Difficult to set a demarcation line between the two sets.
Editors will gravitate toward working on articles that interest them. I often work on Freemasonry articles, as I have experience and expertise there. You (Rublamb) are a superb researcher, and have done deeper dives into finding sources for the confraternities and international groups. Naraht appears to have more patience (and experience) than I do regarding the Philippine groups - among his other many talents. Primefac appears to have great skill in working with templates and metacode, and we have many keen editors who keep an eye on their favorites. It kind of works out.
Jax MN (talk) 19:09, 7 September 2024 (UTC)
@Jax MN: I've also worked on the Black Mason articles, from time to time, so you are not alone in finding these groups interesting. I suspect my recent addition/conversion to Infobox fraternity for non-collegiate groups has stimulated this conversation. I have mixed feelings about which Infobox is best for some of these groups. However, I have decided to go with Infobox fraternity because that will allow us to pull these groups into reports generated by petscan. That way, the review and discussion of appropriateness can be ongoing. Same with the debating groups. There are so many more articles with Infobox organization that I doubt anyone in that group will care if a few articles move to our side. And, as you say, the available content fits our template better. As to the small GLO non-collegiates, some articles will go away during our cleanup project as we take a critical look at notability and sources--but capturing them on the list of articles should address your concerns. BTW, I now feel like the confraternity hall monitor, but that is another topic. Rublamb (talk) 21:53, 7 September 2024 (UTC)

Misconduct - include or not?

I think it is reasonable and 'encyclopedic' to include a Local chapter or individual misconduct section for the social fraternities and sororities - at least where this comes up. But this begs the question, at what point do we remove these items? We've discussed this before, but the record of this is buried in the archives. This came up when I noted a recent change to the Kappa Kappa Gamma article. Here are my suggestions:

  1. The subheader should normally be named "Local chapter or individual misconduct", as the previously used term "Controversaries" isn't accurate. There isn't anything controversial about hazing or sexual abuse: both are bad. But the generic term "controversaries" can indicate that the problem is systemic (it's not) and thus nationally sanctioned.
  2. Items without a citation should be removed.
  3. I think we'd agree that some detractors among the editors focus on adding negative content or highlighting every incidence of hazing, underage drinking or disciplinary proceedings, no matter the degree. They ignore standards of WP:WEIGHT and WP:BALANCE. Other editors will weigh these, keeping some of this material and removing others, simply because small stuff doesn't belong in a summary encyclopedic presentation about a national fraternity. We can and do include more of these items as reference items against particular chapters on chapter lists.
  4. Greek chapters change membership completely over about three years. After ten years (three or more generations removed from bad actors) I think it reasonable that most hazing and underage drinking citations ought to be removed. The exceptions being where someone has died or where local, state or national legislation has been passed because of that incident. If a chapter is permanently closed, the citation for this should be added to the chapter list, not kept on the main article. Also, we should keep mention of items which have generated their own Wikipedia articles, like in the case of the fraudulent rape hoax story out of Virginia.

Jax MN (talk) 16:54, 3 September 2024 (UTC)

This really goes back to the suggestion a while back to create guidelines for the ideal article and its sections.
I generally agree with trimming misconduct to major or current cases. However, I have been known to leave or add a fairly insignificant or old hazing incident because its sources are the only non-fraternity sources for the article. (I just did this today). Sometimes the greater good is to retain notability.
The best name for the section is as you suggest, but we need the flexibility to adapt for content about controversies or scandals that are not related to misconduct by members. For example, a coverage when a chapter goes coed OR kidnapping attempts or other crimes against fraternity members (St. Anthony Hall) OR the UNC fraternity brothers who saved the American flag from Gaza protestors and were given six figures in donations through GoFundMe. The controversy/scandal with the latter is the two sides of the protest and their choice to spend some of the money on an all-campus party. Giving these types of events the label of misconduct is biased language but it could correctly be called a scandal or controversy. Rublamb (talk) 19:55, 3 September 2024 (UTC)
I think the scandal/misconduct/controversy section should stay, but in most cases they need to be written in more of a summary style. As an example, the Delta Tau Delta section could be:
"Over the years, multiple chapters of the fraternity have been involved in notable hazing incidents (add dates and sources). In many cases, those local chapters were suspended by their university or lost their charter."
"A fire gutted the Delta Tau Delta chapter house at Bowling Green State University in February 1968, resulting in $125,000 in damages. The fire started while the brothers were sleeping; some jumped from the third floor to escape. Several brothers were hospitalized, but all managed to escape to safety"
"In the 1970s and 1980s various Delta Tau Delta chapters held Mekong Delta-themed parties, referring to the Mekong River Delta in Southwestern Vietnam where towns were devastated during the Vietnam War. For years, Vietnam veterans spoke out against this event, saying it made light of the war and those who served in it. In 2020, these parties were again brought into the news during the reelection campaign of Congressman Harley Rouda who had participated in these parties while he was a member of Delta Tau Delta at the University of Kentucky." Enos733 (talk) 20:10, 3 September 2024 (UTC)
I heavily trimmed this section in Delta Tau Delta a while back... With this example, it seems wrong to place a chapter house fire under a section header of member misconduct. That is another example where that label is judgemental, implying that they did something wrong. Rublamb (talk) 20:23, 3 September 2024 (UTC)
Along with our Notability rules and any formatting guide, this item may rate our keeping any final guidance as a permalink, since it pops up so often. Looking for discussion, consensus, and then a concise statement of the rule. Jax MN (talk) 20:41, 3 September 2024 (UTC)

Persistent smell...

This one doesn't pass the sniff test. Do any of you have IP check rights to see if this is a WP:SOCK? I assume it is. The user account, "Makatatriskelion", registered only four hours ago, has been removing embarrassing information from the Tau Gamma Phi article (Philippines, Triskelions), and adding puffery. Their latest claim is that the organization has 302,785 chapters. CHAPTERS... I find that number difficult to accept, especially for a group that has no website of its own. As I said, bad smell. Jax MN (talk) 23:30, 9 September 2024 (UTC)

Are there other accounts that have done similar things at this article? Otherwise, it just looks like an SPA, i.e. someone who came across the article and felt they needed to "fix" it. Primefac (talk) 12:10, 10 September 2024 (UTC)
About every six months we see a flurry of activity for this, and similarly for a couple others among the Philippine fraternities. References are slim if they exist at all. Most of the edits were performed by Anon accounts, if memory serves. Jax MN (talk) 19:19, 10 September 2024 (UTC)

Fraternities and Soroities Guideline

Is it possible to make a comprehensive guideline article for how a standard fraternity or sorority page should look? I've found Wikipedia:College_and_university_article_advice to be incredibly helpful. Of course each page would have a level of uniqueness to it, but just as any university there are some standard characteristics that should be recommended.

Please let me know if I am missing something on the project page, but I currently do not find the templates section to be sufficient. Pancake621 (talk) 18:53, 22 April 2024 (UTC)

Hi Pancake621. I note you recently joined the Project. We welcome you. Reading your question above I was intrigued to note the support document for college and university articles, originally written back in 2007. I'm sure it has been heavily used. It was thus a factor in the decade when most of those articles were created. We could certainly use it for our efforts to finish writing articles about dormant schools. Meanwhile, as to your query about a similar style and syntax guide for fraternity and sorority articles, while we may have benefited from such, years ago, alas, I don't know that anyone ever created a similar guide. However, much of the direction you seek is here in the archived TALK pages of this Project page, with a few key items pinned to the top. We track substandard chapter list pages, missing school pages, and discuss the details of stylistic points here. Several of the most active project editors operate with a strong consensus gained from these earlier discussions, but that doesn't really help you if you don't have a ready-reference.
Because this is 2024, and many of the GLO articles are much advanced from their origin as stubs, and the many list pages we track are quite improved from fifteen years ago, I'm less inclined to write this document. However, many points from our archived discussions could be summarized or hyperlinked to quickly form the framework of a new guidance article. Are you interested in working on it?
Yours was a fair question, and I realize that, had we had such a document a decade ago when I was beginning to work on these articles, perhaps we could have corralled other new editors to the Project, and maybe avoided various AfD battles. A guideline like this would have been a solid framework for consensus. Still, we're far more organized and these articles have been much improved over the past decade. Jax MN (talk) 19:07, 24 April 2024 (UTC)
Thank you for the welcome!
I'd be happy to help refine a draft! I feel as tho I am far too new to this WikiProject and wiki-editing in general to create a helpful guideline. (for example, I am a bit unsure of how'd to create that page on the backend for everyone to access).
I also agree that many articles seem to be beyond an original draft, but I've still used them to improve start- or c-class articles for the university wikiproject. I also think it would be good to have a reference for people looking to improve their own organization's page to have some easy to reference guide. Pancake621 (talk) 00:16, 25 April 2024 (UTC)
I think that is a good idea. Although some groups have variations specific to them, there is a format we tend to use. In addition, there a plenty of discussions to pull from where we decided what content to include in a given section or format for content. It is something I keep meaning to draft. Rublamb (talk) 19:20, 24 April 2024 (UTC)
I'd be happy to help refine a draft! Pancake621 (talk) 00:16, 25 April 2024 (UTC)
I will get to it eventually. Currently working on a bear of a project. Rublamb (talk) 13:23, 29 April 2024 (UTC)

Theta Nu Epsilon?

Hi All,

Was just talking with @Naraht over some deletions I made over at Theta Nu Epsilon. Long story short, about a decade ago a bunch of sockpuppets put a whole bunch of fake history on that page and I'm trying to sort out the legit from the totally bogus. There is a whole talk page about it, but complicating the issue is a bunch of the sockpuppets engage in a fake fight with each other. Anyway any help folks could give in cleaning up the article would be greatly appreciated! Jjazz76 (talk) 20:53, 27 May 2024 (UTC)

The Primary source used for the chapter list that was recently deleted is the one from a website that someone put together, which can https://web.archive.org/web/20150403113708/http://thetanuepsilon.org/13Chaplis/ChapterList.html . Other lists that I have found (mostly by googling "Theta Nu Epsilon" and picked at random from the first list Bowdoin) include https://books.google.com/books?id=xbU0AQAAMAAJ&pg=PA233 and https://books.google.com/books?id=PfDmAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA228 . The second although without letters, is from Banta's greek exchange. Note, normally I'd consider Banta's and Baird's as being neutral secondary/tertiary sources for articles about GLOs, but for Theta Nu Epsilon, they would be viewed as *somewhat* antagonistic. Went through my copies of Baird's, and wierdly enough some of the index entries in some editions were screwy, but they best I could do is the 1930s Baird's which had a list of those that were part of the 1925ish reconstruction to be more acceptable as a GLO like those in the NIC (no double membership, etc). This is missing quite a few. For example, *every* source I can find has the chapter list starting Wesleyan, Syracuse, Union, Cornell and Rochester. I'd also suggest editions of the Wesleyan Olla Podrida, for example https://books.google.com/books?id=va8PAQAAIAAJ&pg=PA67 .Naraht (talk) 21:11, 27 May 2024 (UTC)
Baird's 20th has a list of 17 chapters. I'd suggest we roll back these edits and begin looking for sources that confirm each of the groups previously listed. Jax MN (talk) 22:09, 27 May 2024 (UTC)
I appreciate the effort to improve this article but I agree to a rollback is best in this situtation. Some of the recently deleted content appears to have legit sources, such as athe chapter list. If content with a citation is going to be removed, there needs to be documentation as to what was wrong with that source, probably on the article's talk page OR replacement content with a new/better source. If these edits are being made based on personal knowledge and not sources, that falls under original research. Rublamb (talk) 22:24, 27 May 2024 (UTC)
Some of the sources, as far as I could tell, didn't exist or were legitimately made up. The archive talk page way at the bottom, from back in 2008 describes the issues further. But again, if folks think I've deleted too much, I'm totally fine with that. Just trying to work on an article that is a bit of a mess. Jjazz76 (talk) 22:35, 27 May 2024 (UTC)
References: Cite error: A <ref> tag is missing the closing </ref> (see the help page).[1][2] Jax MN (talk) 22:46, 27 May 2024 (UTC)
Thanks for these. I just want to make clear I have no issues with Baird or any of the standard reference volumes. There is also a good NY Times article citation in the article that discusses these 1910s to 1920s issues. But the article as it stood, base on a mid-2000s website, list well over 100 chapters many of which had no documentation in Baird, standard reference volumes, or some of the college newspapers I looked through. Jjazz76 (talk) 22:57, 27 May 2024 (UTC)
Good faith, certainly. I found some of the claims to be dubious or worse when I worked on that article. However, after I cleared out some of the chuff, I left the long-ish list of chapters as a breadcrumb trail to help others start their searches for individual chapter references. I also wrote the summary reference (#1, below), which I think is a fair round-up of a couple of sources. I use that language elsewhere, so had copied-and-pasted it from the U of MN list of fraternities on Wikipedia. More broadly, it may be useful in a revision to the TNE article. Others here are better researchers, and we welcome additions to our ranks. I anticipate that the legitimate TNE chapters will surface in one or two references, somewhere. Jax MN (talk) 23:28, 27 May 2024 (UTC)
GLOs rarely show up in campus newspapers after the 1980s unless there is a hazing incident or chapter house fire, so that does not prove or disprove a chapter. Frustratingly, even yearbooks are not accurate in the last quarter of the 20th century. And, since Baird's last edition was in 1992, we would expect there to be a difference between it and an organizational chapter list from the 2000s. A lot can happen in 2000 years! I will see what I can find--just give me a few days to wrap up other projects. Rublamb (talk) 23:56, 27 May 2024 (UTC)

References

  1. ^ Baird's and other sources note ΘΝΕ was an ill-favored national due to its recruitment of sophomores who were already members of other fraternities, and a policy of secrecy about the active members – those same sophomores tapped each year. It was NOT an honorary, nor a service society. (Freshmen were not eligible, juniors and seniors were advisory only.) Hence, ΘΝΕ became a bit of a pariah, and members were pressured to quit lest they be expelled from their primary fraternities at Minnesota (see ΦΣΚ Rand History); in 1913 the NIC advocated vigorously against its collegians joining ΘΝΕ. Struggling for a workable path to legitimacy, several varying models developed on ΘΝΕ's campuses, where some chapters became standard fraternities, and other public inter-fraternity groups. At Alabama, it even became a political machine, while other chapters took yet other forms. Later, with the adoption of changes, ΘΝΕ briefly joined the NIC in the 1930s, but ceased operations after WWII. Several chapters reformed the society as a smaller entity, some becoming co-ed in the 1970s. The fraternity reports a few chapters that remain active today. --All information compiled from Baird's 19th, from the cited ΘΝΕ website, and a note about Theta Nu Epsilon in ΦΣΚ's Rand History, in a reference cited under that fraternity, p190.
  2. ^ Frank Prentice Rand (1923). Phi Sigma Kappa: A History 1873 – 1923. Northampton, Massachusetts: The Council of Phi Sigma Kappa, via The Kingsbury Print. p. 190ff.

Categories needed

I have come across several articles for founders that don't fit any of existing categories. The closest I can come to is using "Honor society" or "Fraternites and sororities" but that does not help in pulling a list. For that matter, the founder categories we have are all nested under a fraternity category, so those cannot be consolidated into one list.I think we need a general categories, nested under "Fraternities and sosorities" or "Honor socieity" for:

  • Fraternity and sorority founders (could be split into Fraternity founders and Sorority founders)
  • Honor society founders

Rublamb (talk) 17:36, 17 September 2024 (UTC)

Can you please give me examples of either articles or Categories?Naraht (talk) 23:10, 17 September 2024 (UTC)
One example is Adele Gerard Lewis Grant who formed the first US honor society for women (survives as a regional organization that needs an article). She also started Sigma Delta Epsilon, a national women's science fraternity, still active as Graduate Women in Science. There are so many members of the later, we could probably add a category for it. See List of Graduate Women in Science members that I just created. Rublamb (talk) 00:45, 18 September 2024 (UTC)
Just found the categories "College fraternity founders" and "College sorority founders" and "College honor society founders". I had not been looking with the word college. So we are good as long as we are dealing with collegiate groups. But still may want to create the GWIS. Also, may need a high school category for someone like Jacob Broughton Nelson. Rublamb (User talk:Rublamb) 04:24, 18 September 2024 (UTC)
@Naraht: can you create a category for eithe Graduate Women in Science or Graduate Women in Science members. I know how to create a category but am not sure about the system for categories and sub-categories. And I have more than 50 articles that I can link to this. Rublamb (talk) 18:07, 23 September 2024 (UTC)
Not really sure where it belongs in terms of what categories it is in. For the three categories that I can think of for Category:Alpha Phi Alpha Members (also Alpha Kappa Alpha and Delta Sigma Theta) , they are only subcats of the GLO itself. the question is what categories is GWIS in and whether it has a category. Of course this gets back to the *entire* discussion of whether membership in a GLO represents a defining characteristic, but I'm not willing to fight that again. So cleanest is probably to create a Category:Graduate Women in Science and add that to all places the article is currently and then put :Category:Graduate Women in Science members inside that as a subcat as well as the main article. Doesn't put three at all levels, but less messed up that other possibiliies.Naraht (talk) 03:16, 24 September 2024 (UTC)
With other groups, we use the Moo Moo category to indicate membership in Moo Moo. I think we do this more often than having the Moo Moo member, president, or founders categories. As you know, I am not a fan of categories with just a few articles. So I am fine with just the plain Category:Graduate Women in Science. Rublamb (talk) 03:25, 24 September 2024 (UTC)
So a cat for the group placed in the same categories as the group.Naraht (talk) 16:47, 25 September 2024 (UTC)
Created.Naraht (talk) 16:50, 25 September 2024 (UTC)
Thanks! Rublamb (talk) 19:13, 25 September 2024 (UTC)

Landsmannschaft (Studentenverbindung)

Please take a look at Landsmannschaft (Studentenverbindung). I cannot tell if Landsmannschaft is the umbrella for a group of fraternities, if it is an individual fraternity, or if it is different or the same as a Studentenverbindung. Rublamb (talk) 17:12, 16 August 2024 (UTC)

Alpha Pi Lambda

I have created a new version Alpha Pi Lambda, an article that was AfD several years ago, as I believe I found enough secondary sources. I can't remember how to get to the original article. Can someone check and see if it had more details in the infobox, such as colors or a crest or anything else from an older source? Thanks. Rublamb (talk) 17:55, 5 October 2024 (UTC)

I've dumped the last version of the page at Special:Permalink/1249588160, feel free to glean things as needed. Primefac (talk) 18:18, 5 October 2024 (UTC)
Perfect. I was able to use Wayback to access some of the sources. Too bad the images are dead. Rublamb (talk) 19:20, 5 October 2024 (UTC)

Talaan ng mga praternidad at sororidad sa Pilipinas

OK, we've gotten List of fraternities and sororities in the Philippines under control. I'm going to take a crack at the version of the article in tagalog (one of the languages of the Philippines) tl:Talaan ng mga praternidad at sororidad sa Pilipinas. Each Wikipedia works under its own rules and goodness knows that I'd be lost trying to discuss any changes there, but I do want to take a crack at it.Naraht (talk) 02:41, 23 September 2024 (UTC)

If you find a good source (newspaper?) that Google can translate into English, please share. Many of the existng articles read well and have complete infoboxes, but are only sourced to the university and GLO's websites. Rublamb (talk) 18:03, 23 September 2024 (UTC)
I don't intend to create articles over in the tagalog wikipedia, just try to work on that article. I don't know if the Wikipedia rules that force us to have the crests only on the article about the fraternity rather than on other articles as well applies over on the tl wikipedia.Naraht (talk) 16:46, 25 September 2024 (UTC)

Convention Lists?

Are Convention Lists appropriate for articles. (June 5-6, 1904|Cincinnati|Royale Cincinnati Hotel) etc. Naraht (talk) 17:25, 4 September 2024 (UTC)

Visually, they're not problematic, as they break up walls of text. They may be marginally useful, so I don't rush to cut them. But neither do I make a special effort to add them -- there are more valuable edits to be made. How is that for splitting hairs on an answer? If voting, I'd keep them. Not a strong opinion either way. They can, occasionally, add historical context and show an operational period of activity. Jax MN (talk) 17:49, 4 September 2024 (UTC)
I would, in general, say that including convention lists runs afoul of trivia; unless something monumental happened at a specific convention (which can just as easily be mentioned in prose) the average reader will not need to know, nor care about, in which city the 1958 Convention took place. Primefac (talk) 18:39, 4 September 2024 (UTC)
Not to mention the convention hotel and theme. I support including the first national convention in the text, as well as those conventions with major outcomes, such as going coed, desegregation, mergers, name changes, etc. I remove unsourced convention lists when I come across them and have, in the past, merged a few stand-alone list articles, only sourced to the group or unsourced, into the main article using the above guidelines. If the conventions are included, we really should find secondary sources; newspaper articles are pretty easy to find for anything pre-1960s. Rublamb (talk) 03:12, 6 September 2024 (UTC)

German groups

My addition of chapter count to the infobox of a German group was reverted with this comment: "German student fraternities, known as "Studentenverbindungen," do not have chapters in the way that English fraternities do. If one were to find an equivalent to this concept in German student fraternities, the fraternities themselves would be considered the chapters of the umbrella organizations." ThoughtS? Do we need to exclude chapters from those with the Studentenverbindungen type in our report for missing chapters? Does this impact how we treat the German umbrellas? Rublamb (talk) 13:46, 24 July 2024 (UTC)

I *think* that they are mostly right. And I think Studentenverbindungen is the plural, the singular is Studentenverbindung and I think the German Umbrellas should be treated link the US ones like PFA. (though probably *not* in the same article) and it isn't *just* German, I think Austria, the Baltics, Poland and maybe Czech Republic & Slovakia.Naraht (talk) 15:44, 24 July 2024 (UTC)
I have worked on many of these articles and it is always a bit off from our norm. So is each group/chapter a Studentenverbindung (singular) in their infobox, rather than a Studentenverbindungen? And, we would no longer use the chapter field for any group with that type unless its website states a chapter number. Or should we translate to "student organization" or "student association" for type? Rublamb (talk) 18:23, 24 July 2024 (UTC)
My preference: type = Studentenverbindung (the singular)
yes on the website has to give a number otherwise leave it off
Drop the issue category if the type is Studentenverbindung . Primefac Is this is possible?

There seems to be terminology for dueling vs. non-dueling groups, as well as other types of Studentenverbindung. Once we/someone gains a better understanding of the various articles (list to come later) maybe we can use Emphasis to better describe. Or, maybe this can be part of the new infobox? Rublamb (talk) 17:36, 18 August 2024 (UTC)

Current list: Infobox fraternity/sorority & Notability or No Ref Tag

Delete: I added two sources but can't find significant coverage. Content has sources now, but mostly from its website. It is now on the African American and LGBTQ list articles with a source. Rublamb (talk) 07:04, 24 October 2024 (UTC)
Delete: can't find secondary sources Rublamb (talk) 20:13, 24 October 2024 (UTC)
Delete - I found nothing that was helpful to add. It can be on the list of service and/or religious GLO, but this article should be AfD. Rublamb (talk) 23:03, 19 July 2024 (UTC)
- Found a few references. Need to add: from News.google. search "mu epsilon theta" catholic. Naraht (talk) 00:23, 4 October 2024 (UTC)
I will see what I can find in Newspapers.com with that addition of "Catholic". Rublamb (talk) 00:26, 4 October 2024 (UTC)
All I found in Newspapers.com were mentions of membership in wedding, etc. annoucements. Okay to prove chapters but not to establish notability. Rublamb (talk) 00:31, 4 October 2024 (UTC)
Delete: Only other sources were mentions of brides or graduates being members. The one secondary source is a local newspaper that basically quotes a member who says it is a local that has existed for 30 years and has 1000 alumni. The bulk of its content is from the group's website. But enough to be included in our list article. Rublamb (talk) 23:50, 19 July 2024 (UTC)

Naraht (talk) 15:57, 28 June 2024 (UTC)

@Naraht: can I merge my short list of articles with no sources into this list since the issue is pretty much the same? Rublamb (talk) 19:03, 28 June 2024 (UTC)
Sure. And Tau Alpha needs To be restored to the list reverted my removal. Currently at Talk:Tau Alpha, would appreciate eyes on.Naraht (talk) 19:29, 28 June 2024 (UTC)
Done. Rublamb (talk) 23:58, 28 June 2024 (UTC)
Removed completed items. Rublamb (talk) 20:50, 3 October 2024 (UTC)
I hesitate to delete all these from the Watchlist. I think there is value in keeping the names as redlinks for notable locals or regional groups which do not or no longer have articles due to lack of sources. --But where, in good faith, we know they exist and otherwise meet notability rules. There is value in tracking the names of these, one of which is to more clearly indicate to future editors that a page once existed, which may provide a starting point for redrafting an article, should sources appear. Jax MN (talk) 22:32, 3 October 2024 (UTC)
@Jax MN: My removed comment above meant that I deleted completed items from the "Current list: Infobox fraternity/sorority & Notability or No Ref Tag" so that we could better see the items remaining. However, some time ago we discussed/agreed that the articles that went to AfD in this review process did not belong on the watchlist. The watchlist's purpose is to generate notices for the activity report or, less importantly, identify needed articles. Since WP-initiated AfD article don't fulfill either role, it is confusing to keep those on the watchlist. However, a list of all deleted articles is available through the deletion report on the WP page, so that info is easy to review at any time. Also, most of these AfDs met the criteria to be included in one of the various list articles (social, professional, honor), keeping that info available on the public side of Wikipedia. I have no idea how we ended up with a cluster of articles that were not linked to a list article and/or redlinks on the watchlist but were not mentioned in any Wikipedia article. Being able to fix some of these issues is another benefit of the cleanup project. I also plan on adding at least a stub for any redlinked item on the watchlist, if there are sources for notability. Rublamb (talk) 00:25, 4 October 2024 (UTC)

Which one in the Infobox and which one in any larger table of GLOS...

From the official sorority website, the History page...

Chi Alpha Delta was organized in May 1928, at the University of California at Los Angeles under the guidance of Helen M. Laughlin, Dean of Women. A year later, on April 5, 1929, the sorority was officially recognized with the granting of a charter by the University.

Naraht (talk) 23:42, 8 October 2024 (UTC)

Answereing for the generic version of this sitution: I would use the first date in the infobox and mention both dates in the text. If they use the second date as their anniversary, I would put that detail in the text, and still used the first date in the infobox. I would also use the first date in the GLO list article table but would add a efn indicating the second date if I think there will be confusion. However, since there would be link back to the main article, an efn is not essential. Rublamb (talk) 00:02, 9 October 2024 (UTC)

University of Virginia secret societies

Can I get some help with University of Virginia secret societies? An new editor added and keeps restoring an undocumented group to this article. I have looked and cannot find any mention of the Jammers in the many articles about UVa's secret societies. Rublamb (talk) 00:10, 11 October 2024 (UTC)

I've welcomed the user with some helpful tips, but I'll throw protection on the page if they persist. Primefac (talk) 13:41, 11 October 2024 (UTC)

National African American Greek Letter Association

An editor with the name National African American Greek Letter Association has made edits to List of African-American fraternities and sororities. Looks like this is a new umbrella that was created in 2023 or 2024. I have added NAAGLA to our watchlist and will work on an article for it shortly. This article is the best source I have found. NAAGLA uses Instagram and Facebook, rather than having a website. Do we want to go ahead and add this to Affiliations, or wait until it links to a group with an article? Rublamb (talk) 16:09, 17 October 2024 (UTC)

Speaking of missing associations, did anyone work on an article for the Junior Pan-Hellenic Congress? The article for Eta Upsilon Gamma has a red link for it. Jax MN (talk) 16:51, 17 October 2024 (UTC)
No, I never created that article. Rublamb (talk) 16:55, 17 October 2024 (UTC)
Finally found a link to their website that works Rublamb (talk) 16:56, 17 October 2024 (UTC)

Creation block

I am working through the remaining redlinked members of the US umbrella associations. Kappa Pi Beta has had a creation block since 2009. I have found two independent sources, the Almanac and a newspaper article, as well as the National APIDA Panhellenic Association website. These three sources are enough, I think, for a start class article. However, I don't want to put effort into this if I am going to have to jump through hoops to get it published. Has anyone worked on a block article before? Can the block be removed since it has been in place for 15 years? Or can I work directly a known admin from our WP to publish a draft? Rublamb (talk) 23:39, 6 November 2024 (UTC)

Look up the user/admin who issued the block. The current admins will first defer to that person to choose to unblock. You have a valid rationale for doing so. If that original blocker is no longer active, other admins can help. You'll simply make the case that you want to see the original article, and edit it, with the intent of adding sources and cleaning it up, suitable for (re)publication. Jax MN (talk) 23:43, 6 November 2024 (UTC)
I've dropped the protection to ECP, which should allow for creation by you but not any passing wanderer. Primefac (talk) 12:42, 7 November 2024 (UTC)
Thanks. I will work on it later today. Rublamb (talk) 14:19, 7 November 2024 (UTC)

Ceres:

Looking at Ceres and the recent edit about SDSU's chapter going inactive, it indicates that the national Organization has disbanded. https://sdsucollegian.com/27721/news/ceres-womens-fraternity-disbands/ . the chapter at UW Platteville still appears to be going though. Should we count Ceres as having gone defunct? Naraht (talk) 23:31, 18 October 2024 (UTC)

FarmHouse might be able to clarify this for us. They helped establish the sorority. Jax MN (talk) 18:20, 19 October 2024 (UTC)
Farmhouse basically told me to contact the group at Platteville. I've sent them email.Naraht (talk) 13:22, 29 October 2024 (UTC)

New term. What to do about it? "Diaternity"

I ran across the term "Diaternity" or "diaternities" on the UVA fraternity list, then tracked its recent use elsewhere to at least one small, co-educational, transgender-focused or multicultural fraternity. This appears to be a newly-coined term, which an LBGTQ+ group, Lambda Delta Xi may have created, and which they define as "to transcend boundaries."[1] The term is quite new.

While I am supportive of clarity and inclusion regarding language evolution I don't necessarily want to indulge every trendy word or phrase, or co-opted new usage. --It's so easy to over-reach in adopting new terms as they appear, and it seems to me that Wikipedia and the Wictionary are somewhat conservative in this, as are encyclopedias and dictionaries, generally. Jax MN (talk) 21:30, 6 August 2024 (UTC) Jax MN (talk) 21:30, 6 August 2024 (UTC)

Can't remember which group, but the term was coined maybe ten years ago. If that is what the group calls itself, I see no issue with including that in the article. Same difference as allowing some sororities to continue to self-identify as a women's fraternity. If diaternites is used by more than one group, it might be worth mentioning in the overview article(s). Rublamb (talk) 01:11, 7 August 2024 (UTC)
According to University of Virginia fraternities and sororities#Social diaternities, there are four national diaternities. Might be worth breaking these out in List of social fraternities and sororities, once we determine the four. Rublamb (talk) 18:52, 31 August 2024 (UTC)
We have three of the four in List of LGBT and LGBT-friendly fraternities and sororities:
  • Lambda Alpha Lambda (local, 2 chapters)
  • Lambda Delta Xi (local)
  • Sigma Omicron Rho (local)
  • Chi Alpha Iota (local), not currently in the list
Rublamb (talk) 18:57, 31 August 2024 (UTC)

References

  1. ^ Note, this new, 2-chapter organization does not have a Wikipedia page. Lambda Delta Xi website

Redlinked universities and colleges

I have updated the master list of institutions that are red-linked in chapter lists for fraternities, sororities, honor societies, and other groups covered by our WP. This list is alphabetical by school name and includes all known associated groups in that single entry. There are also some sources to aid in creating articles for these redlinks, as identified by various editors. Items can be removed from the list, once an article is created. Rublamb (talk) 00:14, 17 June 2024 (UTC)

Substandard lists of notable members

This section is transcluded from /Substandard notable member lists. (edit | history)

Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Fraternities and Sororities/Archive 15/Substandard notable member lists

Cleanup project

The main list of infobox issues can be found at Category:Fraternity articles with infobox fraternity issues.

I have these here from other discussions so they are easier to find:

  1. "| coat of arms or "| crest" where "| image_size" is null or missing. (The size parameter is manually adjusted, depending on actual image size.) - Category:Pages using infobox fraternity with missing image size (69) --Done. Note that I downsized somewhat the crests and other infobox graphics, too many of which had crept so large that they were inadvertently expanding the infobox width. Of course, if someone wants to see a larger image of the crest, they can click on it, or go to the original source. Flag images are now typically 120px, and member badges appear about the size of an actual badge, or maybe up to 20% larger. Jax MN (talk) 22:35, 4 June 2024 (UTC)
  2. "| founded" where the tag structure "{{Start date and age|yyyy|mm|dd}}" is NOT used - tracked at petscan DONE
  3. missing |affiliation= - Category:Pages using infobox fraternity with missing affiliation (2)
  4. missing |type= - Category:Pages using infobox fraternity with missing type (0)
  5. missing |scope= - Category:Pages using infobox fraternity with missing scope (0)
  6. missing |member badge= - Category:Pages using infobox fraternity with missing member badge (882)
  7. missing |chapters= - Category:Pages using infobox fraternity with missing chapters (61)
  8. missing |members= - Category:Pages using infobox fraternity with missing members (823)
  9. missing |website= - Category:Pages using infobox fraternity with missing website (147)
  10. Missing short descriptions. - tracked at petscan DONE
  11. Orphans - via WP Orphanage search and petscan DONE
  12. missing |status= - Category:Pages using infobox fraternity with missing status (1)
  13. Article name does not match infobox - DONE
  14. Missing infobox - DONE, if had WP F&S Rublamb (talk) 00:42, 29 June 2024 (UTC)}
  15. Missing country
  16. Unreferenced - working list pulled and shared in a new section below 29 June 2024
  17. Notability - working list pulled and shared in a new section below 29 June 2024
  18. Primary sources - tracked at petscan
  19. One source - working list pulled and shared in a new section below 29 June 2024
  20. Has bibliography but lacks inline citations - tracked at petscan
  21. Needs color boxes (Helpful link, has colors, flags, and addresses of Baltic, Scandinavian, German, and Polish fraternities)

Rublamb (talk) 02:01, 1 October 2024 (UTC)

Cleanup Project update

Substandard chapter lists

This section is transcluded from /Substandard chapter lists. (edit | history)

Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Fraternities and Sororities/Archive 15/Substandard chapter lists

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