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Hyphen use

Forgive me that I am so picky and bored as to read through the M-R and RR guidelines, but in both schemes, such names as Hallasan and Kŭmgangsan really shouldn't have hyphens in them... Should those be changed to match guidelines too? Please do respond if you have any comment, because I am quite worried to change the above si/shi combinations already with no support/opposition, and I am not an expert! (I think I will leave alone mixing the use of ʻ (aspirated consonants) and ʼ (separating syllables that may be confused), because that may really be going too far...)

I promise when my summer holidays here in Sydney ends in a few days, I won't have time to be so picky... until July :-) -- KittySaturn 05:43, 2005 Mar 1 (UTC)

I'm pro-hyphen. Hyphens disambiguate syllable boundaries, and provide valuable information to non-speakers of Korean. Of course, in the case of Hallasan and Geumgangsan, there isn't much to disambiguate. But even there, hyphens do clarify the internal structure of the name somewhat. Visviva 16:57, 13 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Whatever. Important is to have redirects for the other versions. Kokiri 28 June 2005 23:22 (UTC)

Just a note that the North Korean government use Mt. X on Naenara, whilst the South Korean tourist board use Mt. Xsan (no hyphens). Well, I've engaged Google: 

Name     Xsan   X-san   Mt X   Mt Xsan   Mt X-san
Halla    6080   4390    4270   736       76
Jiri     6500   648     1170   395       7
Chiri    522    436     556    151       7
Sorak    4020   828     4530   389       9
Seorak   9060   1040    1820   4900      1   
Kumgang  840    750     8920   75        251
Geumgang 752    259     4130   317       102   
Baekdu   8110   102     626    281       8
Baektu   29     3       16     5         0
Paektu   691    3420    5700   85        4
Myohyang 459    223     511    17        3
Kuwol    839    590     518    4         0

Kokiri 2 July 2005 18:05 (UTC)

Template:Korean mountain names may be useful in figuring out which redirects to add. (I've already covered most of Category:Mountains of North Korea. Oh, and I've mellowed on hyphens. I just can't manage to care anymore. -- Visviva 03:07, 19 January 2006 (UTC)

McCune-Reischauer: Yi or I?

User:Mr Tan's adjustment of the name table for Sunjong of Korea leads me to bring this matter here. The question is: in the name table, should the MR for 이 (family name) be rendered as Yi or I? Mccune-reischauer.org suggests I, and I can't find anything to contradict that. For that reason, I had been changing Yi to I whenever I ran across it.

Yi for 이 is common usage, but then again so is "Woo" for 우 and the aforementioned "Shi" for 시, neither of which belong in a name table. Can anyone find a reason to prefer Yi?

In any case, this shouldn't affect the way we spell names in articles, since Yi is the spelling preferred by most 이s who are not Lees. -- Visviva 12:30, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC)

As you know, there are three main files on the MR site that guide our transliterations. The 1939 file seems to allow it, while explicitly prohibiting Ri and Li (p. 52):
"Another very important example is 李, the surname of the kings of the last Korean dynasty and still a very common Korean surname. Actually it is pronounced in the standard dialect and should be Romanized I, but some may prefer to retain the older Romanization, Yi, because that is already the familiar form. In any case the other Romanizations of 李, Ri and Li, should not be used."
The 1961 seems to say nothing about it; and the Library of Congress guidelines use Yi (page 100):
The surname 李 is always romanized Yi, no matter how it is written (李, 이, 리).
(However I personally usually do not follow the last file; for example it prefers putting spaces even before particles, which the original 1939 formulation doesn't.) I think Yi is one of the exceptions that has stuck. And we wouldn't write the "this" 이 as yi. But in my opinion I think the surname Yi is allowable. On the other hand, 시 has never been shi in any of these three files, so there isn't much reason any more to write it as shi since South Korea developed their RR. -- KittySaturn 04:54, 2005 Jun 16 (UTC)
Isn't "should be romanized I" clear enough? I'm fine with Yi in articles and I within its box, but any Yis really shouldn't be called "McCune-Reischauer". Once we start to deviate from the 1930's MR guidelines and start to do what's the most common way to do something, we'd also run into all sorts of hyphenation / spacing issues. I strongly support Visviva's suggestion to use the hyphen only to separate administrative divisions and do away with the LOC's rules about spacing, hyphenation and using two different ' marks. The LOC guidelines simply aren't MR, and I think we should keep that separation at the WP. I won't change any Yis yet, but I'd like to hear from any supporters of Yi. Wikipeditor

Last names

There are certain last names which are seldom romanized according to RR, even in texts which otherwise follow RR religiously. For that reason, I propose to adopt the following conventions for the family names of individuals who have no defined official/preferred romanization. As I see it, this falls under the general rubric of Wikipedia:Use common names.

  • 김 (gim) --> Kim
  • 박 (bak) --> Pak
  • 이 (i) --> Yi
  • 신 (sin) --> Shin (?)
  • 강 (gang) --> Kang (?)

Other family names would continue to follow the Revised Romanization (or McCune-Reischauer for North Koreans).

This would mostly apply to historical figures, since most prominent living Koreans have a preferred romanization. With the possible exception of Bak Hyeokgeose, I don't think any historical Kim or Pak is commonly romanized as Gim or Bak. And no Yi is commonly romanized as I. The cases of Sin and Gang are less clear-cut; I'd be willing to see them dropped from the list, although I think Shin and Kang are reasonably prevalent spellings.

With a few exceptions, most of our Wikipedia articles already follow this convention. Codifying it will just help us to keep track of existing practice, and of where an existing article is likely to be located. -- Visviva 14:50, 9 April 2006 (UTC)

i agree, this should go into the guideline. do you think bak hyeokgeose should be renamed pak? i'm not sure about shin or kang, though, fewer exceptions are easier to memorize & enforce. Appleby 16:44, 10 April 2006 (UTC)
OK, let's keep it to Kim, Pak and Yi, with standardized romanization for the others (including Choe). -- Visviva 06:45, 16 April 2006 (UTC)
In American English Pak is often Romanized as Park. Kang will likely be mispronounced as a hard 'K' when it is more accurately pronounced as the 'G' in 'good'--the same goes for Kim. However, Kim has become the defacto version used in English. Yi I have often seen Romanized as Yee, even though it is pronounced without the slide associated with the 'Y' in American English. How about Kim, Park, and Yee? Also, Choi is widely used in American English for Choe. Christopher North (talk) 18:30, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

Admiral Yi is Korean

Could we drop the "Yi" in "Yi Sun-sin" for Admiral Yi Sun-sin. Yi is used more for Chinese names and it sounds like Admiral Yi is Chinese to people outside Wikipedia, which he is not.

I think we should drop "Yi" completely and use "Lee" or even "E" (since "E" "이" is the Korean pronounciation. Good friend100 21:47, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

it's not easy to solve, especially considering the wider implications for all the various korean surnames for historical figures. Bak or Park? Sin or Shin? Gim or Kim? An or Ahn? we need a consistent system.
wouldn't Lee also sound possibly chinese? i think with both rr and mr systems, it would be romanized simply "i". that looks pretty awkward, and many people would pronounce it "eye". so the question is what is the most common english spelling for historical korean figures with that name (excluding modern people because they can make personal choices of their own name spelling)? i think visviva's point above was that Yi is pretty common, as a compromise considering accurate pronunciation, non-awkwardness, and actual common usage. do you have any other evidence to consider (scholarly references, even google search)? Appleby 22:05, 25 July 2006 (UTC)
Lee might sound chinese but "Li" is the chinese equivalent. Chinese people use "Li" not "Lee". One possible english spelling of "Yi" might be "Ii" but thats used in Japan. Good friend100 02:53, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

Korean names of provinces

Hi! I made this suggestion a few minutes ago on the German wikipedia. Why are the names of the provinces not written the korean way? For example Jeollabuk-do instead of North Jeolla. I guess, most provinces of other countries are written in the original way, for example Vest-Agder. Outside of the Wikipedia, the complete Korean names are also more common, at least according to this google fight. What do you think?

  • South Korea: North Chungcheong -> Chungcheongbuk-do, South Chungcheong -> Chungcheongnam-do, Gangwon -> Gangwon-do, Gyeonggi -> Gyeonggi-do, North Gyeongsang -> Gyeongsangbuk-do, South Gyeongsang -> Gyeongsangnam-do, Jeju -> Jeju-do, North Jeolla -> Jeollabuk-do, South Jeolla -> Jeollabuk-do,
  • North Korea: Chagang -> Chagang-do, North Hamgyong -> Hamgyong-pukto, South Hamgyong -> Hamgyong-namdo, North Hwanghae -> Hwanghae-pukto, South Hwanghae -> Hwanghae-namdo, Kangwon -> Kangwon-do, North Pyongan -> Pyongan-pukto, South Pyongan -> Pyongan-namdo, Ryanggang -> Ryanggang-do

-- IGEL 00:34, 20 September 2005 (UTC)

Agreed. I've hardly ever heard anybody use the English (or even German) translated name. buk/nam-do seems to be as common as it is official. – Wikipeditor 17:55, 24 September 2005 (UTC)
South Korea is done. -- IGEL 17:06, 1 October 2005 (UTC)
Not actually sure that applying this to North Korea would be such a good idea; usage seems rather different. -- Visviva 11:44, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

province update

[this and following section refactored by Appleby 07:23, 17 April 2006 (UTC)] we need to update the province name guidelines: "South Jeolla" (current guideline) or "Jeollanam-do" (actual article title)? Appleby 22:17, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

The province articles were moved after some discussion -- perhaps 6 months ago -- on the basis of Wikipedia:Use common names, since the "South/North X" standard was never widely used outside of Wikipedia. The discussion is around here somewhere, I'm not sure where. Of course, the "South/North" form could be considered to follow Wikipedia:Use English, so it's a bit of a tossup. In any event, the conventions and categories should be made consistent with the article titles, or vice versa. -- Visviva 06:51, 16 April 2006 (UTC)
Added: The province names discussion is on this very page, currently heading #12 (soon to be archived). -- Visviva 02:54, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

ok, so i will, if nobody else wants to, update family names as above & province name to current practice. Appleby 16:51, 16 April 2006 (UTC)

Proposed guidelines

need guidelines on mountains (Xsan, X-san, X Mountain, or Mount X?), rivers, islands, etc., which are now inconsistent. Appleby 16:44, 10 April 2006 (UTC)

the mountain/river/island thing probably needs more thought. i was surprised there isn't a definitive broader guideline, although various guideline pages make peripheral, contradictory comments. did i just miss an obvious guideline page? Appleby 16:51, 16 April 2006 (UTC)

No rush with this -- let's give it some time to play out, and post invites on the various Talk pages. I'm posting what seems to me to be the most obvious solution to each quandary; other proposa are most welcome. -- Visviva 02:51, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

given name

was it decided that personal names should be generally separated by a hyphen? Revised Romanization of Korean says in principle, no, but permitted. it seems a majority of existing article titles are hyphenated, even when not necessary for pronunciation disambiguation. what's the guideline? Appleby 22:17, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

I don't think it's been decided on principle, although we did have a discussion of the matter at some point. I tend to prefer the Xxx Yyy-zzz format for its clear declaration of syllables; however, I have to admit that the Yyyzzz version looks a little better.
The key thing, of course, is to have redirects pointing to the article from every likely alternate spelling. But I agree that we need to hash out a consistent standard, as duplicate articles have been cropping up much too often. Perhaps, since we're using RR, we should follow the examples in the government's 용례 사전? -- Visviva 06:51, 16 April 2006 (UTC)
If I recall correctly, originally the names were written without hyphens, one day someone inserted hyphens into all the names, and then the convention stuck. But I must say that it has always felt a little weird to use hyphens to type names on Wikipedia that seem to be usually written without a hyphen elsewhere. And something like "Kim Jong-il" is not romanised according to either romanisation schemes... -- KittySaturn 11:18, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

somebody, please, just make up our minds about default hyphenation of given names, toss a coin or something. Appleby 16:51, 16 April 2006 (UTC)

mountain

Existing practice: Varied, but tending to favor Xsan or X-san, see Category:Mountains of Korea

Tool: Template:Korean mountain names

Proposal A: Standardize to Xsan; add "Mountain" only for disambiguation (which is rarely necessary). No need to hyphenate. -- Visviva 02:51, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

sounds good. & consistent with Revised Romanization of Korean ("names for geographic features and artificial structures are connected to the placename: 설악산 → Seoraksan 해인사 → Haeinsa") Appleby 07:23, 17 April 2006 (UTC)
I suggest 'Mount X' form. As I said at Talk:Baekdu Mountain#article title, move requested, 'Mount X' is the most common form in English. 'X Mountain' comes next and 'X-san' is the least common. --Kusunose 08:43, 17 April 2006 (UTC)
I'm not sure about that. For instance, "Mount Seorak" gets about 393 Google hits, while "Seoraksan" gets more than 37,000 Google hits. "Mt. Seorak" gets an impressive 12,600 Google hits, but that's still 1/3 of the total for "Seoraksan." This may vary considerably from mountain to mountain... However, the situation seems to be similar for Hallasan and Jirisan. -- Visviva 09:06, 17 April 2006 (UTC)
Mm. I checked "Paektusan" and "Mount Paektu" again and numbers are 11,000 and 10,300 respectively. So it seems Xsan is the most common form. --Kusunose 09:44, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

island

Existing practice: Varied, but tending to favor X Island for polysyllabic names and Xdo or Xdo Island for monosyllabic names (Dokdo, Jindo Island). See Category:Islands of Korea.

Proposal A: Standardize to Xdo; add "Island(s)" only for disambiguation. No need to hyphenate. Create alternate-names template. -- Visviva 02:51, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

sounds good, & consistent with rr guideline. Appleby 07:23, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

river

Existing practice: Favoring X River for rivers and Xcheon for streams. See Category:Rivers of Korea

Proposal A: Continue with X River, Xcheon (Xch'on); create alternate-names template. -- Visviva 02:51, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

i wonder why rivers are treated differently. it'd be nice to be consistent, but x river does sound more right to me, & maybe there's a reason for the existing practice? Appleby 07:23, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

temple

Existing practice: Varied, but tending to favor Xsa, see Category:Buddhist temples in South Korea (sample is skewed; many of those were created very recently)

Tool: Template:Korean temple names

Proposal A: Standardize to Xsa; add "Temple" only for disambiguation. No need to hyphenate. -- Visviva 02:51, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

sounds good, & consistent with rr guideline. Appleby 07:23, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

county

I propose to move the articles of form "X County" (currently almost all counties in South Korea) to the form "X," except where disambiguation is needed.

Example: Cheongdo County --> Cheongdo

The existing convention arose out of prior Wikipedia practice; however, it's difficult to see why we should use "X County" when we don't use "X City" -- I think the only city at "X City" is Donghae City, due to the need for a dab page at Donghae. Objections? -- Visviva 02:51, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

this is all Revised Romanization of Korean has to say: "Syllables of Korean administrative units (such as do) are separated from the placename with a hyphen: 강원도 → Gangwon-do. One may omit terms “such as 시, 군, 읍”: 평창군 → Pyeongchang-gun or Pyeongchang, 평창읍 → Pyeongchang-eup or Pyeongchang." Appleby 07:23, 17 April 2006 (UTC)
should we drop the suffixes from all but provinces? as visviva said, cities already rarely have "-si", "-eup" and -"gun" are also examples of unnecessary suffixes. or is that too minimalistic, necessating too many disambiguation exceptions? Appleby 06:33, 18 April 2006 (UTC)
I would favor keeping the suffixes for tertiary divisions (eup, myeon, dong) -- with obvious exceptions like Itaewon where Wikipedia:Use common names trumps other considerations. This is partly because of the need for disambiguation, especially for eup which double as the county seat. Also, in many cases, particularly for urban dong, there is no obvious "on-the-ground" entity which you could call by this name. I happen to live in a neighborhood called Jangjeon-dong, but I seldom hear anyone call it "Jangjeon." ... thinking about it now, I was probably wrong to put Duryu-dong at Duryu rather than Duryu-dong.
We drop the si and gun, I think, to avoid making those names unnecessarily obscure. But most tertiary divisions are obscure (though still eminently encyclopedic), and are hardly ever referred to in English except in addresses and the like, where the suffix is almost always retained. -- Visviva 07:11, 18 April 2006 (UTC)
I also think the "county" could be dropped, as it seems that many counties are not that obscure. -- KittySaturn 11:21, 28 July 2006 (UTC)
Oh I thought of a somewhat related thing. The "station" suffix, -yeok, in romanisations: I had changed e.g. 서울역 from Seoul-yeok to Seoullyeok to reflect the liaison in pronunciation, but is that a good idea? I don't think RR rules specify up to how non-administrative-division suffixes are to be romanised, but then perhaps it's sensible to follow the same rules (i.e. no assimilations). -- KittySaturn 15:19, 28 July 2006 (UTC)
Thanks for being here to think about things like this. For my part, no matter how much I turn the issue over in my head, I can't think of anything to say about it at all. -- Visviva 08:49, 30 September 2006 (UTC)

Korean name

Korean name is up for a featured article review. Detailed concerns may be found here. Please leave your comments and help us address and maintain this article's featured quality. Sandy 14:24, 23 July 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for the notice. Good friend100 21:43, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

Diacritics in MR

The guidelines say:

except that ŏ, ŭ, and the apostrophe (') are not used in article titles, although they may be used in article bodies

Has no one else experienced the incredible annoyance of reading something written according to this guideline, and not being able to correlate between English and Korean sources due to the lack of decent transliteration? I think that where MR is used, the diacritics which it entails must be used too, although I think the exception in article titles is reasonable. --대조 | Talk 14:15, 15 October 2006 (UTC)

Well, these are the naming conventions, so technically this page is concerned with article titles only. As the passage you quote says, diacritics "may" be used in the article body; the Manual of Style indicates that they should be used, at least when the article uses MR. However, I fear this is honored more in the breach than in the observance...
Actually I would like to revisit that provision, which (IMO) has long outlived its usefulness. The "no diacritics or apostrophes" provision was originally put in place for technical reasons (as I recall, it was once impossible to have a well-formed article title containing an apostrophe). However, those days are long behind us, and the existing guideline only encourages (nay, enforces!) sloppiness. I would suggest that the diacritics/apostrophe exception, quoted above, be stricken from the naming conventions. -- Visviva 15:42, 15 October 2006 (UTC)

North Korea

I'm not really satisfied with the current guidelines for North Korea-related articles. Much of the point of Wikipedia:Naming conventions is to make in-line linking straightforward. Setting different standards for the page name and its use in in-line text doesn't make much sense, and ends up creating a lot of gratuitous piping.

I'd like to replace the current standard with one of the following three:

A. Use strict 1939 McCune-Reischauer, including all diacritics and apostrophes (added: modified to match current standard North Korean pronunciation).
Good: A well-established existing system, reasonably unambiguous. Also matches a lot of existing article text.
Bad: A pain in the butt. (Especially for us folks on Korean OS's with poor diacritical support.) Will require a lot of page moves. Also, the finer points of MR are a matter of perpetual confusion.
B. Use the official North Korean system, i.e., McCune-Reischauer without diacritics but with H's (Nampho, Thaephodong, etc.) and other peculiarities.
Good: Official. After all, we follow the official South Korean system for other Korea-related topics.
Bad: Looks funny. Ambiguous; for example, under this system 은산군 and 운산군 are both romanized as Unsan.
C. Use strict 1939 McCune-Reischauer, without diacritics or apostrophes.
Good: Corresponds to widespread practice on the English-language web. Also matches most existing article titles.
Bad: Imposes a whole new system that is neither strict MR, nor RR, nor official. Shares ambiguity problems with option B.

Any of these, I think, would be an improvement. I personally lean towards option C per Wikipedia:Use common names and general convenience. In fact, that's what I've been following in my own recent edits, although if the consensus is against it I'll happily go back and change those. (Just to clarify: this would not affect MR in the name table at all). -- Visviva 06:29, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

I wouldn't like C at all because every o, u, k, t, p, ch, would impede the reading flow. Ideally, we'd have hangul in brackets after every Korean term that doesn't have its own article with namebox, but that's wishful thinking. In the real world, such spellings would be useless and cause people much busywork when they want to know a name's pronunciation or hangul spelling. (It's difficult enough the way it is now to find out whether some peculiarity was a mistake or not.)
A and B seem ok, or even a mix of B for adminisitrative units (or anything that has received its name from DPRK authorities) and A for everything else. I wish I knew whether the North is remotely as consistent in using its own romanisation system as the South is. There was a relatively recent North Korean paper available from some UN body on the standardisation of place names which is said to explain the Norkish system, hopefully with detailed guidelines, but it's not available online :( Wikipeditor 07:26, 26 November 2006 (UTC)
The mix you describe might make sense. Would that mean something like "Phyongsong" for Pyongsong but "Ch'ŏngch'ŏn River" for Ch'ongch'on River? And also MR for Korean cultural/historical terms? (or should we just leave that out for now?) -- Visviva 15:51, 26 November 2006 (UTC)
To first question: Yes.
To second question: I guess so – although in the very long term a more detailed guideline would be nice as to the correct romanisation for different kinds of stuff (sites, things unearthed, people [who may live in more than one place and for more than one year], abstract concepts) from the DPRK vs. from pre-DPRK North Korea vs. not from North Korea, when they appear in articles on a North Korean topic vs. in other articles. Wikipeditor 03:47, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

Update: Wikipedia:Naming conventions (geographic names) appears to be about to reach guideline status, and to provide a reasonable guide for us here. If I've read it correctly, that would require that we use the established English name where one exists (of course), and the official name where one can be determined. No guidance on what to do when no established name or official name exists, so this would be congruent with B or a BC or AB mixture. -- Visviva 15:51, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

Added: That proposal would also seem to frown on rr|mr piping for general/SK topics mentioned in NK articles. Hmmm... -- Visviva 15:59, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

Even official North Korean sources are half-hearted about the "h" in (B): [1] vs. [2]. It looks to me like a needless departure from the standard, i.e. it's a kind of randomized romanization. But mostly, I just don't think it looks right. Therefore, I suggest (A) in the first mention of a name, (C) in article titles, and (C) in article texts, but with the option of adding the apostrophes and diacritics. --Reuben 05:22, 28 November 2006 (UTC)
In long articles, it may be difficult to find a term's correctly-spelled first instance, but I'm fine as long as people are not discouraged from using a proper romanisation throughout the article. Wikipeditor 03:47, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
Haven't read the geographic naming conventions yet, but I wonder whether say anything about problems of the "Mt. Xsan" type :) Wikipeditor 03:47, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

FWIW, I guess A doesn't really mean 1939 McCune-Reischauer, but the variant that accounts for Nork standard pronunciation (for example, Rodong instead of Nodong)? Wikipeditor 06:19, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

Yep, that's what I meant. -- Visviva 05:16, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

Move discussion for given names

There is a move discussion in progress on Talk:An Ji-Man which affects this guideline. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. Sawol (talk) 04:37, 28 March 2014 (UTC)

Abbreviated institution and place names in running text

What would you suggest in terms of naming conventions for cases in which a new (name of an) institution, company or location comes up within a continuous text passage? (But for which exists no own Wikipedia page...) In such cases I would normally - to be most precise - like to add the official Hangeul name in parenthesis. This way, later cross-referencing and general identification of the institution/location in question might hopefully improved. As this pertains to the actual WP content and thus to neither to the article title nor potential template boxes (of which there usually may only be one?), what is the common practice in this regard? Adding Hangeul in parenthesis is (imho) sensible, until one has to also contemplate if and in which order (where) to use the English abbreviation of the romanized / official English name. Furthermore, it doesn't seem that there is a consistent convention for parenthesis content, as non-romanized names sometimes are prefixed by the term "Hangul:" or more broadly by "Korean:" and then again by no term. --Philipp Grunwald (talk) 16:15, 3 November 2015 (UTC)

North Korean names

Please see a discussion about this at Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Korea-related_articles#Romanization_of_North_Korean_names.--Jack Upland (talk) 00:06, 17 January 2016 (UTC)

Notification of RFC for Korean MOS in regard to romanization

Should we use McCune-Reischauer or Revised for topics relating to pre-1945 Korea? Those inclined, please contribute here. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 06:23, 6 July 2016 (UTC)

"-eup can be omitted." ?

-eup can be omitted.

I disagree this sentence in Wikipedia:Naming conventions (Korean)#Towns, neighbourhoods and villages. Because there are many disambiguation towns (eup) like Cheorwon(철원), Gangjin(강진), Yecheon(예천), Geochang(거창), Hadong(하동), Goseong(고성), Yeongdong(영동) etc. So, people can be confused --ㅂㄱㅇ (talk) 02:37, 12 August 2016 (UTC)

bridges

Wikipedia:Naming_conventions_(Korean)#Bridges section is empty. How about to add this? For bridges, the full unhyphenated Korean name including daegyo or gyo should be used, as in Incheondaegyo. If disambiguation is needed, "bridge" can be added -- see Wikipedia:Disambiguation. This convention applies to bridges without an accepted English name. If a different name has been established in common English usage, it should be used, per Wikipedia:Use common names. --ㅂㄱㅇ (talk) (Bieup Giyeok Ieung) 02:30, 14 November 2016 (UTC)

Romanization of names

We have rules for typical 3 syllables (1 family + 2 given) names, but nothing regarding not typical names. What with 4 syllables names? Example: 3 syllables given names. Should we write it same as 2 syllables names (hyphenate the syllables, with only the first syllable capitalized)? E.g. Hong Ah-mo-gae. If this is correct, it should be added to rules. Similar question to 2 syllables family names. Usually are written as a joined word, but no written rule regarding that. E.g. Dokgo Young-jae. KarlHeintz (talk) 18:48, 10 September 2019 (UTC)

There are 2 syllables family names such that Dokgo, Dongbang, Hwangbo, Hwangmok, Jegal, Mangjeol, Namgung, Sagong, Seomun, Seonu, and so on. They have already established themselves with no hyphen in English Wikipedia. There are 3 syllables (2 family + 1 given) names like Hwangbo In. Hyphenating the syllables as Hwang-bo In puts in confusion of family name Hwangbo and given name Hwang-bo. Sawol (talk) 07:10, 12 September 2019 (UTC)
Regarding 2 syllables family names I agree that there is established rule in English Wikipedia to write it as joined word without hyphen. My point in this case is that this rule should be added to Wikipedia:Naming conventions (Korean) page. Generally in Wikipedia this rule is followed, but I have seen e.g. Namgung written as Nam Goong. But main problem is with 3 syllables given names, because these names are usually are written wrong: first syllable of given name is treated as family name and given name is made from last 2 syllables. In example I gave before: Hong Ah Mo-gae. Example from modern names: 임메아리 in Wikipedia is written as Im Me Ah-ri, according to me should it be Im Me-ah-ri. KarlHeintz (talk) 15:33, 12 September 2019 (UTC)

Sea of Japan guideline

The current instructions on Sea of Japan is not in line with naming policies and should be completely struck. As long as the page name is Sea of Japan, that is the only form that should be used in running text in Wikipedia. The exceptions would be 1) a mention on the Sea of Japan page in the same manner we cover non-English names for any geographic entity and 2) the article on the dispute itself. --Khajidha (talk) 12:40, 2 July 2020 (UTC)

  • +1 to what Khajidha says. The rule (about using parenthetical "East Sea" after "Sea of Japan" in Korea-related articles) was created back in 2005 or thereabouts, through a "vote" between a handful of participants, and hasn't kept up with the development of our general naming guidelines and policies. As such, it is at best a "WP:LOCALCONSENSUS" that's no longer valid, as it contradicts the larger, project-wide consensus about how such things should be handled ("Consensus among a limited group of editors, at one place and time, cannot override community consensus on a wider scale"). The actual rule we need to follow is "use common English names", nothing else. The only valid argument for retaining the "East Sea" variant would be if a large portion of reliable English-language literature could be shown to use this variant when dealing with Korean topics, but apparently they don't. Fut.Perf. ☼ 17:26, 2 July 2020 (UTC)

I understand, of course, that "Chosŏn'gŭl" is the preferred native name of the Hangul script in official North Korean usage, but why are we following that convention in North Korean articles? Surely, our naming practices should follow WP:COMMONNAME and WP:USEENGLISH. Is "Chosŏn'gŭl" ever used in lieu of "Hangul" in a majority of reliable English-speaking sources? As far as I can see, this script is only ever called "Hangul" in international English usage; that's its established English name, and for all I can see it's the only significant one it has. Official native terminology should play no role in our naming choices.

Can anybody point out if and when a consensus for this odd usage was established on Wikipedia? I can't find it discussed anywhere, but it seems to have been around for quite a while, apparently since before 2006 according to the history of {{Infobox Korean name}}. This does not seem to be in line with our current policies. Fut.Perf. ☼ 10:49, 28 April 2019 (UTC)

Having received no feedback here for three days despite notifications on several relevant articles and noticeboards, I intend to go ahead and remove the "north=Chosŏn'gŭl|old=Hunminjeongeum" parameters from the relevant templates, {{Infobox Korean name}} and {{Korean}}. Will post further notifications on the template talkpages and wait for a bit more first. Fut.Perf. ☼ 06:49, 1 May 2019 (UTC)
Those terms also find use in {{Infobox Chinese}} via Module:Infobox multi-lingual name in function ibox_mln_ko(). Perhaps notification at that infobox template's talk page is appropriate.
—Trappist the monk (talk) 10:58, 1 May 2019 (UTC)
Are you referring to the context=north and that then changes how a few fields in the Infobox are displayed? I'm not very well versed in various Wiki policy so I cannot speak of when/how a consensus was made or the rational at that time. I think the reason why previous editors added that code was, at least at that time and quite possibly still today, the English literature on a number of North Korea related content used some of the North's specific spellings as that Korea is a different Korea and things are spelled differently there. Well, there and Yanbian China as well as those native Korean speakers typically used North style words and spellings. As Kpop and South Korean imports have passed those by the North into that area of China, their spellings are changing. Yes, in English South Korean Romanization is normally Hangul but in a North Korea context the rules are different and I honestly think the pages that display it different help me to better understand that context better. Note: I don't check talk pages often so I'll put a note on my calendar to stop by here again in a few days. ₪RicknAsia₪ 06:19, 7 May 2019 (UTC)
I'm not referring to the way the names themselves are presented or transliterated (I understand we use different Latin transliterations for North Korean and South Korean names, which is fine as far as I'm concerned, and there were repeated discussions about that). What I'm speaking of is merely the label naming the writing system, which was presented as "Hangul" for South Korean names, but "Chosongul" for North Korean ones, even though both labels refer to the exact same thing, the common Korean script. I have found this discussion in the archives in the meantime. It was a conversation between three editors back in 2005 and seems to have been the only one where this was ever discussed. Fut.Perf. ☼ 06:34, 7 May 2019 (UTC)

Pinging @Sawol, Rickinasia who are probably our best experts on Korean. – Finnusertop (talk ⋅ contribs) 12:51, 5 May 2019 (UTC)

Thank you for the ping. I never follow these kind of talk pages unless I stumble across one by mistake. ₪RicknAsia₪ 06:19, 7 May 2019 (UTC)
I think it would be best to leave it as it is. While the term "Hangul" is undoubtably used more than "Chosongul", "Chosongul" is what it's called in North Korea. Using Korean terms for North Korean things that are not used in North Korea is not desirable. It would be misleading to tell readers that the North Korean alphabet is called "Hangul". It's not called in North Korea. What next? Calling North Korean places and people by South Korean names? This is just dogmatic and will lead to misinformation and confusion. No, please, no!--Jack Upland (talk) 10:36, 7 May 2019 (UTC)
But there is no such thing as a "North Korean alphabet". There is only a single alphabet, the Korean one, and its name in English is "Hangul" (or simply "Korean", which is something we could also use just as well). Our naming policy is to use the names our English readers are most familiar with, not the names that happen to be used natively in some other country. There's nothing "misleading" or "confusing" about that: WP:USEENGLISH. I don't see why we should want to make an exception from this general principle just for this country. Fut.Perf. ☼ 10:48, 7 May 2019 (UTC)
I would accept using the "Korean alphabet" as this is more informative for the ordinary viewer. However, the writing of Korean is different in the North rather than the South. And using the term "Hangul" implies that this is what it is called in North Korea, which is false.--Jack Upland (talk) 18:33, 7 May 2019 (UTC)
About simply calling it "Korean" (especially in the inline {{Korean}} template): the more I think about it, the more I think that would actually the most reader-friendly and consistent approach. The question is whether we should then still link the term to the article about the script, or rather to the article about the Korean language, which would be analogous to what we do with other foreign-script templates of that kind. I'm less sure about the {{Infobox Korean name}}. As for the differences in the actual writing practices, I don't see how those are relevant here: they are quite minor, and in no way lead to a point where we'd have to say that the northern "Chosongul" and the southern "Hangul" are actually two different scripts. These are not two different things, but a single thing that happens to have two different native names, independently of the minor differences in the actual letters. And as for the perception that "using the term 'Hangul' implies that this is what it is called in North Korea" – well, no, it simply doesn't. Using the term Hangul in English implies no more and no less than that that is its English name. If you disagree, I'd have to ask you to show actual sources: international English publications that do what you propose doing here, using "Chosongul" when writing about North Korean topics. Naming practices on Wikipedia are supposed to do just that: mirror what our reliable sources do. I haven't been able to find any among the sources we cite in our relevant articles. Even the book source we cite in the infobox of the North Korea article for the fact that "Chosongul" is the country's official script doesn't actually do what you want us to do; it uses "Hangul" to make that statement. Fut.Perf. ☼ 19:36, 7 May 2019 (UTC)
I agree with Jack Upland's conclusion that "hangul" is misleading in North Korean context, but for a slightly different reason. Both Hangul and Chosongul literally translate to "Korean script", but the connotations are strongly with South and North Korea, respectively, because these are the respective names of Korea used in these countries. Thus "Hangul" in North Korean contexts is, while not outright wrong, a bit awkward. It's a bit like calling kanji "Chinese script", which we fortunately don't have to do because "kanji" is so established in English-language sources. For the same reason, I'll write choson-ot instead of hanbok, when the context is NK, even though the latter is the common "English" spelling.
As for using simply "Korean", I note that many equivalent templates for many non-latin script languages do that. That would point to general support toward such a move. But personally, I find the solution in all of these languages awkward. "Moon Jae-in", "Mun Jae-in", "Mun Chae-in" "문재인文", and "在寅" are all Korean; the first three are romanized Korean, the others are Korean rendered in hangul and Korean using hanja, respectively. All are Korean.
Fut.Perf., naming conventions are first and foremost about article titles, and we're not discussing about moving anything here. In terms of article titles, WP:COMMONNAME is the only way to go. Sure, it's good practice to use the common name in other articles as well – when applicable. But this isn't a hard fast rule. Consider this especially in light of Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Korea-related articles: we've agreed to waive a uniform common name approach and use North Korean spelling and romanization (MR) for North Korea articles, and South Korean spelling and romanization (RR) for South Korea articles. Here, consistency across natural sets of topics trumps a universal approach.
A note on sources. The standard practice in anglophone academic Korean studies is to use MR for both South and North Korea articles, whereas sources originating in each country tends to stick to their own romanizations. Consequentially, a blind "follow the RS" approach would counterintuitively probably mean just using MR for everything, even though that's not the official script in South Korea any more. My point is, that this is primarily about what makes sense within the context of a set of articles rather than what is the overall common name (so more of a "WP:ENGVAR" thing than simply WP:USEENGLISH). – Finnusertop (talk ⋅ contribs) 16:56, 16 May 2019 (UTC)
Finnusertop, thanks for your thoughtful response and sorry for the late reply. I still disgree. Contrary to what you say, the principle of "use common English names" does apply to article text just as much as it does to article titles. It does so, not because of this or that WP policy, but because that's the only way to produce reader-friendly articles. We follow the naming practices of our sources, because that means following the principle of "least astonishment" for our readers. Speaking of astonishment, I'm a person fairly knowledgable about languages and writing systems, so I did know what "Hangul" means (that being the common English name), but I'm damned if I ever heard or saw the term Chosongul before stumbling across it on some Wikipedia article. It was completely opaque to me and I had to follow the links to figure out what was going on. That's not the way Wikipedia ought to work.
As for the matter of Romanization systems (which, I repeat, is not what I wanted to discuss here, but since you bring it up:) if, as you say, there is a conflict between usage in "anglophone academic Korean studies" and "sources originating in each country" about the spellings of South Korean names, then the decision between those is still a matter of WP:COMMONNAME. It may very well make sense to favor the non-academic local sources over the others, if those are considered to be what English readers are more likely to be familiar with. But that's not an exception to the "follow the sources" rule; it's precisely its correct application.
So, at the end of the day, the challenge still stands: no matter how well-considered the opinion of Wikipedia editors may be that using "Hangul" for the North is somehow "inconsistent" or "inappropriate", without sources to support such a practice that opinion is simply not relevant. If only "Chosongul" was appropriate in that context, then surely we ought to be able to point to reliable sources that use it. I haven't seen a single one so far. Can you point me to any? Fut.Perf. ☼ 07:47, 12 June 2019 (UTC)
I agree with Jack Upland. "Hangul" is South Korea's political name for the Korean alphabet (as noted above, South Korea calls itself "han-guk" in Korean, whereas North Korea is "Joseon"). North Korea does not use hangul, it uses Joseongul/Chosŏngŭl. Alternatively, to avoid the controversy, it could just be "in Korean." Added by Incogreader (talk • contribs) 16:37, 4 June 2019 (UTC) edited 7/6/2019

I also happen to completely agree with @Incogreader:, @Finnusertop:, and @Jack Upland:. We should use "Chosungul" for the North and "Hangul" for the South. If not that, then we should just use the neutral all-encompassing term "Korean" for all articles and link to page on the language and not the script as we usually don't link to Latinate or Cyrillic, for instance. And local considerations absolutely do matter, which is why we use UK English on UK-related articles, for instance (thus why the article on the England national football team is located under that name and not "England national soccer team" for example). And for romanization we use RR on South Korean and MR on North Korean too. Lastly, invoking WP:USEENGLISH is odd here, since neither "Hangul" or "Chosongul" are English words, or if they are, then they are both equally English words. – Illegitimate Barrister (talk • contribs), 07:25, 12 June 2019 (UTC)

Challenge still stands: Sources, please. Without reliable sources using such a naming practice, any WP:LOCALCONSENSUS favouring it is irrelevant and invalid in light of our general naming policies. Fut.Perf. ☼ 07:47, 12 June 2019 (UTC)
Re to your last point: No, quite clearly, "Hangul" is the most common name in English, and as such it is an English word (though of course not a native but a borrowed one). It's even in Merriam-Webster's dictionary [3]. "Chosongul" isn't, because nobody outside Wikipedia uses it in English. Challenge still stands: Sources please, or literally nothing of what you've been saying here has any relevance whatsoever. Fut.Perf. ☼ 06:12, 13 June 2019 (UTC)
  • For what it's worth, the Oxford English Dictionary says that "Hangul" appeared in English in the 1950s (i.e., after the division), and prior to that, the alphabet was known as "Onmun".--Jack Upland (talk) 00:56, 12 November 2020 (UTC)
  • One cannot discuss about (Hangeul=Chosŏn'gŭl) in isolation. There is also 한자 (=Hanja-Hancha). Don't even try to translate the later as "Chinese". And thus the former cannot be translated as "Korean". In fact, the best educated translation of Hangeul/Chosŏn'gŭl would be "our writing, as of now" since Han-geul alludes to HanMinguk (대한밍욱) and Chosŏn'gŭl alludes to ChosŏnMin...guk. As a result, "Hangul" is not how SK or NK are (separately) describing their (common) alphabet. Moreover, this term was coined by the 1911 anti-Japanese activists and therefore doesn't take a SK/NK side. As a result, Hangul can be branded as a politically correct neutral English term. Being also the far most usual wording in English, this term could be used everywhere. But this would undermine the rule: use NK methods when writing about NK, taken as an argument to keep the dual romanization RR/McC. Ah lala, nothing is simple! Pldx1 (talk) 11:12, 10 June 2021 (UTC)

The name for Sea of Japan

Regardless of articles relating to Japan or Korea or whatever countries, the term "Sea of Japan" should be used following the international custom since this is an English Wikipedia. Instead, the term "East Sea" which is a term in common use in only Korea should be used in Korean Wikipedia alone. Here's a previous instance. "East Asia/Southeast Asia :: Korea, South". Central Intelligence Agency. Retrieved 24 January 2020.
Eddal (talk) 13:27, 24 January 2020 (UTC)

"East Sea" is not a term in common use even in Korea. It is called "동해" (Donghae) in Korean. "East Sea" is a mere English translation of Korean name "동해" (Donghae).―― Phoenix7777 (talk) 11:30, 2 July 2020 (UTC)
I strongly disagree with putting down both Sea of Japan and "East sea" from a neutral perspective. The term "Donghae" or "East sea" is merely adopted in Korea only. Whether related to Korea or not, Sea of Japan only should be used as Sea of Japan is in common use in English and widely accepted in many large intergovernmental organizations. This is English Wikipedia, NOT Korean Wikipedia. Eddal (talk) 21:57, 11 November 2020 (UTC)
Dear User:Eddal. I am not sure of how to parse your last message. Are you saying: "this is the Wikipedia in English language, not the Wikipedia in Korean language" or are you saying "this is the Wikipedia of U.S., not the Wikipedia of T.H.E.M." ? Pldx1 (talk) 08:22, 11 June 2021 (UTC)
Dear Pldx1. Of course, I mean the former. Obviously, English is spoken not only in the U.S. but all over the world. (I thought a.n.y.o.n.e can edit Wikipedia, but actually not correct ?) Eddal (talk) 15:31, 24 July 2021 (UTC)
Dear User:Eddal. This sea should be called as "Sea of Stupidity" to acknowledge how ineffective were the two governments of Korea when arguing against the name "Sea of Japan". Seen from Vladivostok, this is rather the "South sea". Proposing the "Whale sea" would have been politically correct, and probably successful, but this wasn't done. Have a good day ! Pldx1 (talk) 15:59, 24 July 2021 (UTC)

Default policy on given names with three or more syllables: Should there be hyphens or not?

Currently, there are Shin Saimdang (with no hyphens) and Lee Bom-so-ri (with hyphens).

Well, a given name with three or more syllables are not common, but what should be the default policy when there is no personal preference? Should hyphens be inserted between every single syllable (like Bom-so-ri above), or not (like Saimdang above)?

I would like to leave a suggestion: When there is no personal preference, do not insert a hyphen in given names that are three or more syllables long.

(Personally I'm against inserting a hyphen even in two-syllable given names (e.g. Hong Gildong instead of Hong Gil-dong), but inserting a hyphen in two-syllable given names seems to be what English-language media usually do.) 182.172.59.84 (talk) 12:17, 19 March 2023 (UTC)

There is also the #Romanization of names section above. Here is another suggestion with that section in consideration:

For personal names, when there is no personal preference and no established English spelling, join syllables (i.e. do not insert a hyphen or space), with the following exceptions:
  • Use a space between the family name and the given name
  • Insert a hyphen between syllables in a two-syllable given name, with only the first syllable capitalized (e.g. Hong Gil-dong)
The second exception does not apply to given names with three or more syllables (e.g. Shin Saimdang, not Shin Sa-im-dang) and to polysyllabic family names (e.g. Namgung, not Nam-gung).

Probably other people should be aware of this, but I don't know who to notify. For now I'm notifying Sawol, who seems to be still active. 76.102.5.114 (talk) 00:35, 21 March 2023 (UTC)

76.102.5.114 is right. English Wikipedia puts Korean given names into forms separated by one or more hyphen (e.g. Lee Bom-so-ri, Yeon Gae-so-mun, Kim Jong-un). South Korean government rules given names with a joined word (e.g. Lee Bomsori, Yeon Gaesomun, Kim Jongun). North Korean government's system used a space between every syllable (e.g. Lee Bom So Ri, Yon Kae So Mun, Kim Jong Un). South Korean government's old romanization system used one or more hyphen between syllables before 2000. English Wikipedia seems to be following the old romanization system of South Korea. Sawol (talk) 06:27, 21 March 2023 (UTC)

@Sawol: Actually, that's not what 76.102.5.114 is saying. They are saying (or proposing) that (when there is no personal preference and no established English spelling) hyphens should not be used in given names with three or more syllables, which means full names like 이봄소리 should be romanized as Lee Bomsori, not Lee Bom-so-ri.
I agree with what they said — i.e. no hyphens by default, only except in two-syllable given names. --216.16.109.115 (talk) 06:26, 25 April 2023 (UTC)

North Korean names

Following this recent discussion on Talk:Kim Jong-un#Survey and discussion, should we remove hyphen from names (e.g. Kim Il Sung, per official sources) and leave it unhyphenated. This can change per consensus via Wikipedia:Naming conventions (Korean)#Given name. Surveyor Mount 00:26, 8 April 2023 (UTC) WP:SOCKSTRIKE --216.16.109.115 (talk) 06:26, 25 April 2023 (UTC)

Changing of naming conventions

Given the local consensus achieved at Kim Jong Un (formerly Kim Jong-un, Kim Jong-il, and Kim Il-sung), I'd like to propose a change in naming conventions for North Koreans to prefer the transliteration Kim Jong Un (one segment per syllable, each capitalized) over the transliteration Kim Jong-un. As was demonstrated during the request for move at Kim Jong Un, this spelling is broadly used by reliable secondary sources (being the one supported by the AP Stylebook) for North Korean names and is the one preferred by North Korea.

Given the local consensus achieved at Park Chung Hee (formerly Park Chung-hee), I'd like to propose a second change to the naming conventions to support the un-hyphenated romanization of Korean names for South Koreans who gained prominence prior to the 1980s/90s (the shift in naming conventions in favor of hyphens occurred at this time - this proposal would not restrict articles on South Koreans from continuing to use hyphens). The article Park Chung Hee has already been moved, but there are numerous other articles of historical South Koreans that are currently not found at their WP:COMMONNAME, including:

:3 F4U (they/it) 01:05, 29 April 2023 (UTC)

Agree on both proposals. toobigtokale (talk) 18:23, 1 May 2023 (UTC)
I don't think any of those five ngrams links demonstrates WP:COMMONNAME for the unhyphenated version. (As for the first graph for Kim Jae-kyu, it's missing some combinations of hyphenation and spelling: [9].) For historical figures we look to the practice of modern secondary sources, which may or may not follow older spellings. (It's the same for historical place names.) Also, I think "gained prominence prior to the 1980s/90s" would be too nebulous of a standard and needs work. Adumbrativus (talk) 08:18, 2 May 2023 (UTC)
Oop good catch for Kim Jae Kyu! I'm not entirely certain on the standard either, which is why I brought it here. The reason why I brought it here is because I don't think the naming conventions should be a blanket support for one variant of spelling.
Generally, in my reading of Korean topics, English-language sources published from Korea support the newer hyphenated spellings, but with mixed usage for people with established names among English-language sources outside of Korea. In particular, academic sources, literature, and the American government tend to use the older, more-established spellings, while news organizations, particularly those from Korea, tend to prefer the newer spellings.
I think the better way to phrase what I'm proposing is: These people are prominent as historical figures, and unless there is an abundance of contemporary coverage on the figures, I think its better to recommend that the historical spellings be preferred. For historical figures where English-language coverage is difficult to find, it is much more likely that these people will be covered in the older transliteration (no hyphen and MR), meaning having a policy that blanket supports having these articles at their RR names actively hurts our readers' ability to find these articles.
Of course, WP:COMMONNAME trumps all, and that should obviously be stated in the policy, but I think its unhelpful for the policy to support blanket hyphenization, when that's oftentimes not the WP:COMMONNAME for historical South Koreans. :3 F4U (they/it) 14:22, 2 May 2023 (UTC)

Family name

I'd like to propose changing the "family name" section from

Unless the subject is known to prefer otherwise such as Kim, Lee, or Park, family names are romanized per Revised Romanization (RR) for South Koreans and pre-1945 Koreans, or McCune–Reischauer (MR) for North Koreans.

to the following:

Unless the subject is known to prefer otherwise such as Gim, Yi, or Bak, family names are romanized per the transliteration found at Category:Korean-language surnames.

The romanizations of Kim, Lee, Park, Choi, Kang, Han, etc. are overwhelmingly more common than either a strict reliance on MR or RR. The transliteration Park, for example, is neither MR or RR, but is more common, by an astounding margin, than Bak or Pak. :3 F4U (they/it) 01:24, 29 April 2023 (UTC)

Agree on this too. toobigtokale (talk) 18:24, 1 May 2023 (UTC)
I agree with the general idea of using clearly established spellings even if they are non-systematic. I think the guideline should state the basic idea, a couple illustrative and non-exhaustive examples, and not much else. I'd propose something like this in substance: For many family names, such as Kim, Lee, and Park, there is a single clear common spelling, which is not necessarily the Revised Romanization or McCune–Reischauer romanization. In such cases, family names are romanized according to the common spelling, if the subject has no known personal preference.
I recommend against specifically citing Category:Korean-language surnames. First, without more, that just begs the question of how those pages' titles should be decided. Second, individual members of the category are not necessarily well vetted, and category members will change over time as articles may be added, removed, merged, or moved. It's best for the guideline not to endorse, or appear to endorse, everything in the category. Lastly, the category contains names which are not exclusively Korean, and also some variant spellings, and so those don't necessarily reflect the common name in the context of Korean romanization. Adumbrativus (talk) 07:25, 2 May 2023 (UTC)
Addendum: In my wording above, I'm leaving the door open for the possibility that a surname might have no clear common spelling at all. That would unlike any of the cases we've explicitly discussed, which have all been clear. It's probably not too frequent. I'd let this subsection of the guideline be silent on that, and leave it up to more general principles. Adumbrativus (talk) 07:29, 2 May 2023 (UTC)
Mhm, I get what you mean. I think endorsing "Kim", "Lee", "Park", "Jung", "Choi", "Cho", "Kang", and "Yoon" as the commonly accepted spellings of Korean surnames would be good. At the very minimum, the naming conventions shouldn't be endorsing blanket RR surnames which are very much not the common spellings. :3 F4U (they/it) 14:03, 2 May 2023 (UTC)
I'd also note something @Toobigtokale mentioned, which I agree with, which is that this also contradicts the recommendations in the MOS for Korean articles, which recommends MR romanization for topics pre-1945 (something I believe is much better reflected in common usage). :3 F4U (they/it) 14:23, 2 May 2023 (UTC)
I do agree the current section is very problematic and promotes rare RR variants of family names, over well-established transliterations, as per @Freedom4U. However, instead of using Category:Korean-language surnames as basis, I propose using the 성씨 로마자 표기 방안: 마련을 위한 토론회 [Plan for romanisation of surnames: a preparatory discussion] created by the National Institute of the Korean Language (also the creators of RR). Using the data provided in pages 57-62, we find that Kim (99.3%), Lee (98.5%), Park (95.9%), Kang (96.9%), Cho (73.1%), Moon (73.5%), Ko (67.5%), Woo (97.0%), etc are the more common transliterations compared to their RR and/or MR counterparts. For pre-1945 Koreans, I do think that either Revised Romanization or McCune–Reischauer romanization should be used. When reading from an academic paper or book, the historical figures are often known by their MR names, such as Yi Chagyŏm rather than Lee Ja-gyeom, or Yu Tŭkkong rather than Yoo Deuk-gong. Another thing that should be addressed is the attempt by some to translate the family name 김 as "Gim", supposedly based on the principles of Revised Romanization. However, most published works that do use Revised Romanization overwhelming translate 김 as "Kim" when used as a surname. For example, in A History of Korea (Third Edition) by Kyung Moon Hwang, it uses Kim Yu-sin and Kim Hong-do, rather than Gim Yu-sin and Gim Hong-do that Wikipedia currently uses. ⁂CountHacker (talk) 23:07, 9 May 2023 (UTC)

Question

Romanized Chinese titles get to keep ü (e.g. Lüchun County) and romanized Japanese titles get to keep macrons (e.g. Kōchi Prefecture). But why do McCune–Reischauer-romanized Korean titles have to drop breves and apostrophes (e.g. Munchon, not Munch'ŏn)? 125.4.19.70 (talk) 07:17, 26 August 2023 (UTC)

I'm also bugged by this and a bit jealous of Japanese titles that have markings. Now that I give WP:TSC a closer read, maybe we should preserve markings for MR titles and turn the non-marked versions into redirects. The titles with diacritics are the proper titles; the names without diacritics don't make sense to anybody. toobigtokale (talk) 09:45, 1 February 2024 (UTC)

McCune–Reischauer in titles

Proposing that we allow McCune–Reischauer special characters (ŏ, ŭ, ') in titles for place names. Applying them in the title but not in the body is confusing, and doesn't even abide by WP:TSC: Sometimes the most appropriate title contains diacritics... This can make it difficult to navigate to the article directly. In such cases, provide redirects from versions of the title that use only standard keyboard characters. The most appropriate title would be the North Korean standard, which is what is being followed in the body anyway.

I propose deleting (except that ŏ, ŭ, and the apostrophe (') are not used in article titles, although they may be used in article bodies).

Note that to my understanding, the use of diacritics for non-place article titles isn't explicitly prohibited or encouraged. I think we ideally should write a section for article titles to make our practices clearer, but this is my scope for now. toobigtokale (talk) 08:17, 13 February 2024 (UTC)

It looks like this is actually from a technical restriction that existed in the very early years of Wikipedia. Now that such a restriction is gone, there does not seem to be a reason to prohibit breves and apostrophes in article titles.
From Wikipedia talk:Naming conventions (Korean)/Archive 4#Diacritics in MR (note that this was in 2006):

Actually I would like to revisit that provision, which (IMO) has long outlived its usefulness. The "no diacritics or apostrophes" provision was originally put in place for technical reasons (as I recall, it was once impossible to have a well-formed article title containing an apostrophe). However, those days are long behind us, and the existing guideline only encourages (nay, enforces!) sloppiness. I would suggest that the diacritics/apostrophe exception, quoted above, be stricken from the naming conventions.

But there are some issues with using breves and apostrophes.
  • Characters with a breve (ŏ ŭ Ŏ Ŭ): People often mis-input them as the ones with a caron (ǒ ǔ Ǒ Ǔ).
  • Apostrophe: In various MR-romanized text, I have not only seen ' (U+0027, ASCII apostrophe) but also encountered ‘ (U+2018) and ’ (U+2019), and rarely ʻ (U+02BB) and ʼ (U+02BC), and more rarely even ʾ (U+02BE). I guess there are some MR converters outputting these non-ASCII characters, and someone using such a converter may inadvertently use them in article titles.
    • The original MR uses the ’ shape. Article titles in Wikipedia should simply use the ASCII apostrophe.
These issues can cause problems with finding existing articles or checking if an article already exists.
So maybe it is better not to use breves and apostrophes in article titles. I am not against your proposal though (I am neutral on this issue). 172.56.232.122 (talk) 18:21, 13 February 2024 (UTC)
Good point, although I'll add a bit of nuance. If you use the search bar, Wikipedia does automatic redirects for those swapped characters. However, linking won't work. For example, you can get to Kwŏnŏp Sinmun (with breves) by searching "Kwǒnǒp Sinmun" (with carons), but linking with carons yields a redlink.
To try and address this, like MOS:JAPAN#Article titles we can just tell them to create redirects for the alternative titles. But casual editors probably will never see that instruction.
Still, this swapped character issue exists in many other languages as well (including Japanese), yet they still manage to deal with it. I think we can too. toobigtokale (talk) 23:27, 13 February 2024 (UTC)
Furthermore, note that we already somewhat have this issue with MR and RR. I've yet to see any duplicate articles for MR and RR spellings or MR special character typos. I've only ever seen one for an English spelling variation: Movie theatres in South Korea and Movie theaters in South Korea (I merged them). toobigtokale (talk) 23:37, 13 February 2024 (UTC)
If you need more input, how about a WP:RFC? Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 02:03, 14 February 2024 (UTC)
But by the way, are breves and apostrophes really needed in article titles? Article titles are supposed to follow whatever is common in English, and if English text usually omits those symbols, then allowing them probably does not give much benefit.
Again, I am not against your proposal. I am just curious about it (also I would like to know the exact policy about article titles). 172.56.232.169 (talk) 23:21, 14 February 2024 (UTC)
No worries, this is a good discussion, thanks. For convenience, I'll resummarize my reasoning while addressing your point.
  • We should overall abide by WP:TSC (particularly the part that I quote above)
  • We should also abide by WP:COMMONNAME
    • You rightfully point out that in some cases, the common name will not have breves or apostrophes. However, there will be cases that they will have it, particularly in niche historical topics that are mainly covered by academia. Academic papers in most English-language journals about Korea use McCune-Reischauer, and hence breves.
    • Furthermore, if we follow common name we should be consistent about the name we use throughout the body, and not only use a certain name in the title and another in the body. This contradiction is what particularly bothers me; if we were consistent in prohibiting breves across the board (which I think would be unacceptable anyway) I think it'd be less of an issue.
  • If other language style guides on Wikipedia allow special characters and do OK, I don't get why we would be an exception.
toobigtokale (talk) 23:31, 14 February 2024 (UTC)

RFC

The following discussion is an archived record of a request for comment. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion. A summary of the conclusions reached follows.
There is a strong consensus to amend this naming convention to allow for the use of special characters in article titles using McCune–Reischauer romanization, but only if they are a part of the WP:COMMONNAME of the article topic. The WP:TITLESPECIALCHARACTERS argument, made on principle, was successfully refuted by the reasoned contentions that there is sometimes ambiguity without the use of special characters and that this is likely to eliminate, rather than create, confusion and that those matters outweigh any concerns about keyboard capabilities. Further suggestions made during the discussion (such as the one regarding the article titles of pre-1945 Korean biographies) were outside the scope of this RfC and should be discussed further. voorts (talk/contributions) 17:41, 19 April 2024 (UTC)


See Wikipedia talk:Naming conventions (Korean)#McCune–Reischauer in titles. Currently, the Korean naming convention is to not use special characters for titles that use McCune–Reischauer romanization and to only use the special characters in the body. I am proposing that we allow the special characters. toobigtokale (talk) 22:46, 14 February 2024 (UTC)

  • Oppose. WP:TITLESPECIALCHARACTERS (part of WP:AT policy) opposes this, and you give no argument to overturn it. Without a justification powerful enough to overturn policy, I must oppose. Mathglot (talk) 08:00, 21 February 2024 (UTC)
    Thanks for the reply, you rightfully point out that I should have been clearer on why I think this is needed.
    Characters not on a standard keyboard (use redirects): Sometimes the most appropriate title contains diacritics (accent marks), dashes, or other letters and characters not found on most English-language keyboards.
    From this paper (p. 64):
    However, quite often the breve and apostrophe are omitted when writing. The breve is not a standard key on a keyboard and many non-native Korean speakers do not feel the need to add apostrophes (National Academy of the Korean Language, 2001). Research by Jeong (1998) and Kim (2006) also conclude that many users don’t use diacritics. Omitting diacritics can cause an extreme amount of confusion. Take for example Shinch’ ŏn (신천) and Shinch’on (신촌). Not only are both of these places in Seoul, but at one time they were both on subway line 2 (the circle line). They are on opposite ends from each other. If you leave out the breves and apostrophes, they are both spelt Shinchon. If you looked up information for a restaurant and the information told you to go to Shinchon Station exit 4, you could have ended up going to the wrong subway station on the wrong side of Seoul. This caused a lot of confusion and inevitably Shinch’ ŏn (신천) station was renamed Jamsilsaenae.
    The paper lists more examples afterwards. In short, currently, the guideline suggests that we should misspell Korean words (then, oddly, spell it correctly in the body). toobigtokale (talk) 09:34, 21 February 2024 (UTC)
  • Support.(Summoned by bot) This is a close call: I think there's a lot of reasonable accessibility concerns (and arguments from pragmatics) that keep our article title policy conservative by nature when it comes to special characters. But diacritics such as these are very much an edge case, and I can see the value of clarity and conformity with the more typographical deep orthography of this particular use of romanized characters. I agree in principle with Mathglot's first impression analysis above, but I think Toobigtokale has since provided a rational response to that inquiry. To be honest, there is very little downside here as I see it: the average reader unfamiliar with the function of the diacritics is going to interpret the phonetics for most words as similar regardless of whether said diacritics are present or absent, while those more familiar with how they condition the pronunciation are going to get extra nuance. So this is largely a win-neutral, with little potential that the inclusion of these particular features will create confusion or ambiguity for most readers. This compares favorably to the (very reasonable) concerns about confusion and/or ambiguity that arise out of allowing so many other types of special characters. If anything this is a scenario when the inclusion of such characters is in the aggregate more useful to the average reader. So I think the proposed change is well-considered, when we take into account all context. SnowRise let's rap 07:21, 23 February 2024 (UTC)
@Mathglot Pinging in case any other thoughts. If no opposition, I'm considering leaving this discussion open until 2/30, then going ahead and making the change. toobigtokale (talk) 20:55, 24 February 2024 (UTC)
I'll review again in light of your response, however I suggest you do not make the decision yourself on the outcome of this Rfc on 2/29 (or any other date) but rather request closure from an independent reviewer at WP:Closure requests. Your last statement suggests that you are ready to cut discussion short two weeks early, and while there are only two !votes present. There is no hurry; please let it run its course. In the meanwhile, have you notified appropriate venues to attract more opinions here? If not, please do: see WP:APPNOTE. Mathglot (talk) 21:37, 24 February 2024 (UTC)
Oh ok; I just didn't really understand protocol, this is the first time I've done something like this. Thanks for pointing out these pages. I think I've reached out to the appropriate places for a change of this calibur (fairly minor and unlikely to impact many pages; common name actually often doesn't use diacritics, so most major places will be unaffected), but am open to suggestions for where else I should reach out. I'll reach out to closure requests at a later date. toobigtokale (talk) 21:54, 24 February 2024 (UTC)
Toobigtokale, just for some further elucidation that might help you out with future RfCs, it's important to know that this is an atypical context, insofar as we are discussing a change to policy.
For example, if this were a debate about whether to adopt a different standard for the diacritics in just one article, and taking place on that article's talk page, there wouldn't even necessarily need to be a formal close. Formal closes (ideally by neutral third parties) to well-attended RfCs have become more and more the norm over the years, but if you opened an RfC on an individual article talk page and only two people replied, and one deferred commentary on the core issue and the other more or less agreed with you (as has taken place above in this discussion), you would probably be safe to just skip the closure and implement the change on the assumption that there was a tiny (but undisputed) consensus. Afterall, the issue could always be revisited if someone later disagreed, and there is the principle of WP:NOTBURO / economy of volunteer time with small matters.
However, here we are talking about a change to a policy page, which in turn could impact a large number of articles. In these circumstances, the community expects and requires a much more thorough vetting, hopes for a larger consensus than just a handful of people, and utilizes a much more formalized process. So as Mathglot notes, it is not advisable to try to close the discussion yourself. But it would also be an issue to implement changes without a formal close. As such, my recommendation is as follows: wait for the typical 30 day initial listing period to expire, and if no additional parties have responded by then, relist with the Feedback Request Service, post notices to additional WikiProjects or other spaces which may be active with editors who would take an interest, and wait another 15-30 days. If after that time no one has further responded, go to WP:AN and request a close. I appreciate that this is a bit of work, relative to the interest shown in this change so far, but for a change to a WP:PAG, it really is advisable. Good luck: per my previous comment, I do think the change is advisable. SnowRise let's rap 22:42, 8 March 2024 (UTC)
This is really helpful, thank you! Read and understood, will keep in mind for future. toobigtokale (talk) 22:58, 8 March 2024 (UTC)
You bet! Thanks for taking the time and interest needed to do it pro forma. :) SnowRise let's rap 23:22, 8 March 2024 (UTC)
  • The current wording (in Wikipedia:Naming conventions (Korean)#Place names) applies this restriction only to North Korean place names. I also note that that section does not allow for WP:COMMONNAME, but it should. The North Korean capital is correctly titled Pyongyang rather than P'yŏngyang, but because the former is the common name in English-language sources, not because the apostrophe and breve should be dropped. Ditto Kaesong. Lots of other places in NK are seldom mentioned in English-language sources, of course. So I don't think the apostrophe and breve should be forbidden, but they should not be added to names that are common in English-language sources. Kanguole 17:57, 13 March 2024 (UTC)
    Agree with your assessment. toobigtokale (talk) 18:06, 13 March 2024 (UTC)
    I think you've hit the nail on the head/identified the appropriate (and commonly accepted) balance. In fact, where the guideline reads "Generally, place names are romanized according to the official romanization system of the country the place is a part of.", that is largely inaccurate--or at least an incomplete picture. In fact, in both article titles and and content, place names tends to be controlled by COMMONNAME and weight factors beyond any other single factor, almost irrespective of language. Mind you, for the majority of topics (particularly the more historically relevant rather than more contemporaneously relevant subjects) there is going to be strong overlap between the modern official romanization schema and the commonname, but where they part I agree with you that the commonname should predominate as a matter of encyclopedic practicality, and that this is the approach that is already exercised broadly on the encyclopedia. SnowRise let's rap 04:18, 14 March 2024 (UTC)
  • Support to allow the usage of special characters in article titles using McCune–Reischauer romanization, provided that it respects WP:COMMONNAME. While I do agree with the assessment made by other editors that North Korean place names with M-R romanization such as Pyongyang, Kimchaek, or Kaesong shouldn't have special characters in the article title per WP:COMMONNAME, there are topics in where McCune–Reischauer romanization with special characters is the common name, such as the names of historical Korean figures pre-dating 1945. Most journal articles or books use the form with the special characters, such as Wang Kŏn, Kyŏn Hwŏn, or Ch'oe Ch'ung-hŏn. Kanguole makes a good point in that it does appear that the restriction on special characters only seems to apply to North Korean places, and thus not to pre-1945 Koreans. I would go further and support a revision to WP:NCKO that pre-1945 Koreans use McCune–Reischauer including the special characters, in contrast to modern North Korean names which do not use the special characters. ⁂CountHacker (talk) 23:15, 23 March 2024 (UTC)
  • Support allowing special characters when they are used in the topic's WP:COMMONNAME. I largely echo the thinking of CountHacker and SnowRise on this point. For navigation, redirects from the sans-special-character variants of the titles should be sufficient to ensure an easy path to the destination. ModernDayTrilobite (talk • contribs) 14:10, 29 March 2024 (UTC)
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

General comment

WP:NCKO and MOS:KO need style revisions imo. NCKO is confusingly organized (e.g. for NCKO, Romanization of names covers people/organization names, but not place names for some reason, which is covered by a separate section Place names. Are place names not names?).

It's hard to parse where to use McCune-Reischauer and where to use Revised Romanization. Perhaps someone should create a table of various scenarios, what system to use, and examples of correct usage.

If someone can step up to do this that'd be appreciated. While I (toobigtokale) still edit Wikipedia here and there, it's usually simple gnome stuff for a few minutes. 187.190.191.57 (talk) 00:28, 21 April 2024 (UTC)

Handling oreum

Jeju oreum aren't currently handled in NCKO. Propose modifying WP:NCKO#Mountains to read Articles about specific mountains should be titled with the mountain's full unhyphenated Korean name including san, bong, or oreum should be used, as in Seoraksan or Geomunoreum.

Reasoning: I'm not sure there is a WP:COMMONNAME convention for how oreum are named; I'm seeing conflicted usage online. UNESCO has "geomunoreum" [10]. However, the visitkorea website has two different spellings: [11][12].

I think just proposing one standard that matches how mountain articles are named is easier than hashing out each naming discussion for oreum in future. 211.43.120.242 (talk) 04:44, 27 June 2024 (UTC)

On July 4 (week after orig post), if no opposition I'll WP:BOLDly make the change. 211.43.120.242 (talk) 08:45, 1 July 2024 (UTC)
Weak Support Concerning WP:COMMONNAME, when doing a brief scan I found more links of oreum being combined into one word; for instance, when looking up geomunoreum on ngrams, it only gave back results for the combined word. If it were up to me though, I’d honestly say that oreum should be split up to prevent confusion about syllables, but in the face of COMMONNAME (even in a small sample pool) my preference is neither here nor there. Edit: Struck my support in light of evidence below Dantus21 (talk) 03:35, 2 July 2024 (UTC)
@Dantus21 Actually now I flip my vote to splitting the name.
Common name survey of some famous oreum (just plain google in quotes; some are not really mentioned in the news etc):
  • Geomunoreum 42,300 vs Geomun Oreum 8,980
  • Yongnunioreum 2,940 vs Yongnuni Oreum 29,300
  • Geumoreum 5,070 vs Geum Oreum 3,390
  • Saebyeoloreum 2,460 vs Saebyeol Oreum 14,400
  • Darangswioreum 371 vs Darangswi Oreum 2,110
  • Ttarabioreum 173 vs Ttarabi Oreum 2,190
  • Baekyakioreum 140 vs Baekyaki Oreum 7,240
  • Mulyeongarioreum 70 vs Mulyeongari Oreum 2,950
  • Gamaoreum 58 vs Gama Oreum 592
Also, to your point, unlike the leading letters in "san" or "bong", the "o" in "oreum" really lends itself to being ambiguous with the previous syllable. Lots of examples of this in oreum#List of oreum... Around every 5th oreum in this it seems.
There's also the fact that names often become really long when combined, making them hard to parse quickly.
While I was aiming for more consistency with the rest of the Geography section, we're already inconsistent in it. I think possibly rightfully so, given common name practices, WP:USEENGLISH, etc. Lmk thoughts 211.43.120.242 (talk) 02:02, 3 July 2024 (UTC)
I have no issues with splitting Dantus21 (talk) 11:53, 3 July 2024 (UTC)
I'll go ahead and boldly make the change; if anyone disagrees please poke me and I'm happy to revert and discuss. 211.43.120.242 (talk) 11:46, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
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