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Archive 1Archive 2Archive 3Archive 4

Proposed retargeting of WP:GAC

FYI: It has been proposed that "WP:GAC" be retargeted to this page. Feel free to contribute to the discussion. Thanks! Swarm X 18:08, 21 April 2011 (UTC)

Scope and scale

I've started my first GA review and have been looking at the criteria for guidance. Unless I'm missing something, there doesn't seem to be anything about defining scope or measuring scale.

I would expect an article to have a clearly defined scope and remain within it whilst providing a full scope coverage. One of the criteria is "broad in coverage" but that could imply that it is in order to discuss associated topics which are not necessarily within the scope of the article. Should I therefore assume that scope includes anything that is either directly or indirectly relevant; or should I take a value judgment and in effect define the scope myself?

"Broad in coverage" also implicates the scale of the article which might be too long (as some articles unquestionably are) or simply not long enough. Obviously, a stub with just a couple of paragraphs can never be a good article but what about an article that is of necessity short, relatively speaking, perhaps because of limited scope? Equally, at what point should I consider an article too long (e.g., 100kb)? I realise it would be impossible to define minimum and maximum limits in terms of kb but I think some broad guideline is needed to make clear that articles which are very short or too long cannot qualify. Again, is the question of scale one for the reviewer's own judgment?

Any useful advice or pointers about other aspects of GA reviewing would be appreciated. I do have review experience in other spheres but this site has its idiosyncracies and I will need to be aware of any special considerations. --Mykleavens (talk) 07:08, 8 May 2011 (UTC)

  • The requirements are given in WP:WIAGA and that is what you should be reviewing them against, not your own individually-imposed idiosyncrasies. Looking at your talkpage, you seem to have been editing of about one month on wikipedia and don't appear to have have personal experience of the GA review process, i.e. you do not seem to have submitted an article at WP:GAN (nor appear to have contributed to "fixing problems" of an article under view). As an editor with a username you are entitled to do reviews; but is it wise/fair be doing them if you are unsure of what the requirements are: scope, measuring scale, and length are not requirements of a GA? Pyrotec (talk) 10:40, 8 May 2011 (UTC)
I understand you are short of reviewers with a resultant backlog. I review articles and specifications on a weekly if not daily basis in my profession and so I wouldn't have thought reviewing articles on a leisure site like this would be any big deal. I was merely asking a question about aspects that are not clear in WIAGA which, for your information, I had already studied. In professional reviews, it is very important indeed to understand the scope (size is not very important) but you do not appear to share that view and I wonder how you decide what is relevant to an article and what is not? Fortunately I am not easily discouraged. --Mykleavens (talk) 19:40, 8 May 2011 (UTC)
  • OK, lets start again. Hi Mykleavens, We are short of reviewers, we also suffer occasionally from poor reviewers. I can only go on the information that you provide. There is little mention until now that you review on "a weekly if not daily basis in my profession" and perhaps your choice of the statement "I do have review experience in other spheres but this site has its idiosyncracies" was open to misinterpretation - and I fell into that trap. I have no wish to discourage "good reviewers", but I hope that your use of the term "leisure site" was not intended to be provocative. No, if you wish to do "leisure reviews", hopefully that is reviewing nominations of leisure articles, that is fine. As I said before we do get poor reviewers, articles that would be expected to fail do get passed and articles that should perhaps not pass do sometimes get passed. A "bad" review can be reversed by means of another review, so it is no big deal; and there are various degrees of badness. Idiosyncratic views being imposed by reviewers (sorry, these are your words) is one. There is no upper or lower limit on length. Pyrotec (talk) 20:33, 8 May 2011 (UTC)
  • I think the words or concepts of "scope" and "scale" is causing difficulties. In a wikipedia article, the first part of the article before the contents, a few paragraphs, is known as the WP:Lead. The Lead has two functions, it introduces the article and summarises the main points. So, what I think you are calling "scope" is defined by the Lead (and the title of the article): if a summarised subtopic is in the lead then the subtopic should be in the article, the lead should not "tease" by including info/facts that are not in the article. So I tend to review an candidate WP:GAN section by section, but do the Lead last. I probably understand scope creep: possibly "your" approach would be: (1) is the scope of the Lead adequate, (2) has scope creep occurred between the Lead and the article. The criteria, however, has to be WP:WIAGA. Are we talking the same tale (I won't say the same language)? Pyrotec (talk) 20:33, 8 May 2011 (UTC)
Hi Pyrotec. I think you've answered it very well as the lead should be the place where the scope is outlined, although not in a direct way. I presume the reviewer can decide if the article is too short or too long so I'm fine with WIAGA. Thanks very much. --Mykleavens (talk) 21:53, 9 May 2011 (UTC)
  • Hi, Mykleavens.WP:WIAGA says "Broad in its coverage: (a) it addresses the main aspects of the topic; it stays focused on the topic without going into unnecessary detail (see summary style)." Part (b) is relatively easy: if an article gets too long or covers too many topics, put the excess in one or more smaller articles, give the smaller ones give links to the main one with {{main}} and make the main articles link to the smaller article(s) with wiki-links in the text and/or {{see}}. The "coverage" criterion is the most difficult to interpret, we've had discussions about it with no conclusion. My own unofficial criterion of "Broad in its coverage" is "are there any obvious gaps on a quick read-through?" I hope that helps. ----Philcha (talk) 13:26, 8 May 2011 (UTC)
  • And yes, you should get about 4 your" articles of through GA reviews. After that, we always need more reviewers, welcome onboard on the good ship WP:GAN. --Philcha (talk) 13:26, 8 May 2011 (UTC)
Hi Philcha. Thanks for giving me a positive response and I agree with you that looking for gaps is a good technique but it is equally important, in my view, to guard against the dreaded "scope creep". I'm afraid you've lost me a bit with the first sentence of your second post. Do you mean I should be aiming to promote four articles I personally have developed? If so, I am some way off because I am only working on one article at present although it has led me to make a few minor fixes in related articles. --Mykleavens (talk) 19:40, 8 May 2011 (UTC)
Yes, I believe that Philcha's suggestion involved the concept of "walking before you run", e.g. by submitting some articles to WP:GAN to gain experience before GA reviewing is undertaken. On a positive note (I don't wish to be negative) I did not; if you wish to constructively critice my reviews that is OK by me. I suspect that you will find it easier to review first and submit later. Pyrotec (talk) 20:43, 8 May 2011 (UTC)
On balance, I think reviewing will help me to write articles as it will show me what to look for and what to do (and not to do), especially around site compliance. Thanks again. --Mykleavens (talk) 21:53, 9 May 2011 (UTC)
Have you read WP:Reviewing Good articles and What the Good article criteria are not or any of the other advice pages?
For some of your questions (e.g., the scope/subject of the article), the correct solution is to ask the editors at the article. For others, there are some guidelines elsewhere (e.g., WP:SIZE), but please remember that if it's not actually in the criteria, then compliance isn't actually mandatory.
Overall, reviewing an article isn't especially difficult. I don't think that it's necessary to have had articles promoted to GA to be able to do it. In fact, I wouldn't claim any GA as my own work, and yet I doubt that anyone here would tell me that I'm an incompetent reviewer. WhatamIdoing (talk) 05:07, 12 May 2011 (UTC)

I believe that scope is probably the most subjective criteria. It depends on three factors - the article title, article length (see WP:SIZE), and the scope of related articles. If some aspect of the topic that comes to mind when you think of the article title and you find it missing from the nominated article, you should raise that problem in the review. However, if the nominated article is a survey article with many daughter articles, then the omission of a topic would be more understandable. As a practical matter, the scope becomes a matter of negotiation between the nominator(s) and the reviewer. There is no single "right" answer, and it involves a great deal of judgment. Racepacket (talk) 20:13, 16 June 2011 (UTC)

The nominator posted a request for further info on the 15 June and I posted a request for further info on the 19 June and both have not yet received a reply Talk:Klemens_von_Metternich/GA1. I have asked directly now, on your talk page Mykleavens, as there are some major concerns that the article was not really properly assessed. I understand that it was your first review but putting a fail for stability, when there were no edit wars or content dispute, was the final straw which persuaded me that perhaps the review was less than satisfactory.
If I have not heard anything in another few days I will put it back up for community review. Chaosdruid (talk) 13:29, 28 June 2011 (UTC)

Clarity of Note 2

Criteria 1(b) is "it complies with the manual of style guidelines for lead sections, layout, words to watch, fiction, and list incorporation.[2]" Note 2 reads: "Compliance with other aspects of the Manual of Style, or the Manual of Style mainpage, is not required for good articles."

What is not clear is if the expanded details on a sub-page are included. For example - WP:Layout has a section on linking - Wikipedia:Layout#Links - which directs people to Wikipedia:Linking for further information, and that page includes advice on overlinking. I have regarded overlinking as outside the GA criteria, though I have noticed that it does get mentioned in GA reviews.

Some clarity regarding the subpages would be useful. Either:

1) "Compliance with other aspects of the Manual of Style, including the Manual of Style mainpage or subpages of the guides listed, is not required for good articles."

or

2) "Compliance with other aspects of the Manual of Style, or the Manual of Style mainpage, is not required for good articles. Though subpages of the guides listed, such as WP:Linking, a subpage of WP:Layout, are included."

Thoughts? SilkTork *Tea time 09:08, 2 June 2011 (UTC)

GA and bulleted lists

I am writing a historical article for which dates of certain events are not really known. There exists however an old historical chronicle which assigns dates to events. Since those dates are possibly not always correct, I would like to leave them outside of the main text, but put them into a kind of timeline section linked as footnotes. The timeline section will have an introduction discussing the correctness of dates. Is this a good idea, i.e. does it satisfy good article criteria, MOS, etc; or is there a better way to provide the same information? bamse (talk) 09:51, 15 July 2011 (UTC)

Yes, this is a tricky area. It comes under Wikipedia:No original research which is a GA criteria. It says: "All interpretive claims, analyses, or synthetic claims about primary sources must be referenced to a secondary source, rather than original analysis of the primary-source material by Wikipedia editors." Your approach is reasonable. Have a section on the dates noting what Shoku Nihongi says, but without giving your opinion or views or interpretation - so "Shoku Nihongi gives the date as xxxx" but not "Shoku Nihongi gives the date as xxxx, but this may not be correct" and not "The date is xxxx". Questionable dates should not be presented as facts, but given as "source says". Ideally having a secondary source commenting on the dates would be the way to go. SilkTork ✔Tea time 10:37, 15 July 2011 (UTC)
There seem to be a number of sources which are indicating dates. Is it the precise months you are after? If the bulk of the sources are satisfied with using just the year, and are not getting into the detail of the months, and only one source, which you indicate is dubious, is giving the months, then perhaps it might be better to mention the Shoku Nihongi source with its breakdown in months entirely in a footnote, and if you have another source which questions the reliability of the dates, that could be used to cite a statement that the dates are unreliable. So: Footnote - "Shoku Nihongi gives monthly dates for these events, however Brian Foo and other scholars have indicated concern about the reliability of these dates. [source cite]." SilkTork ✔Tea time 10:50, 15 July 2011 (UTC)
Thanks for replies. I don't think there is an issue with "No original research". All I wanted to do is to present the dates (including months and day) from the Shoku Nihongi in a timeline section (source=Shoku Nihongi) and write a short paragraph at the start of that timeline section discussing what historians think about those dates (source=some history books). Since I remember from previous GA nominations that bulleted lists are generally discouraged in GA, I was wondering whether such a timeline/footnote section would be admitted, since it is kind of a bulleted list as well. bamse (talk) 10:58, 15 July 2011 (UTC)
Well, it sounds as though you are dealing with the OR issue correctly. Are you wondering if the presentation of the material will contradict any of the appropriate uses given in Wikipedia:Manual of Style (embedded lists)? SilkTork ✔Tea time 20:14, 15 July 2011 (UTC)

Timelines and chronologies weren't explicitly covered in WP:EMBED. I've now added some comments and links. They are in effect serving the same purpose as a list of works, in that they are graphically summing up and giving a quick overview of some essential facts, and that the data will be supported by prose analysis of the main points - either within the timeline itself or elsewhere in the article. From what you have described, that is what will be happening in the Fujiwara no Hirotsugu Rebellion article: the dates will be discussed as part of the main text, and the timeline will collect the dates together in a graphic representation. Does that help? SilkTork ✔Tea time 23:26, 17 July 2011 (UTC)

Yes it does. Thank you. bamse (talk) 06:58, 18 July 2011 (UTC)

How small is acceptable for an article?

I just reviewed Ladislaus III of Hungary, and it satisfies the basic GA criteria (well-written, all major aspects, no copyvios, follows MOS, etc.) However, the article is very short, coming in at some 2120 characters. Is this acceptable? Ladislaus died at around age 4, so there's not much that could be written about him.--3family6 (Talk to me | See what I have done) 17:26, 22 January 2015 (UTC)

Hi 3family6, This article is around 2K in size. According to the page Good articles by prose size, this article would indeed be near the bottom of that list, but notice there are quite a few others that are even smaller. (Note: I did a quick run of this article through Peer reviewer and it pointed out the not recommended use of a template in a header.) Prhartcom (talk) 17:55, 22 January 2015 (UTC)
Thank you, you were very helpful. I'll go ahead and pass the article (I fixed the template issue myself as it was a minor edit).--3family6 (Talk to me | See what I have done) 18:14, 22 January 2015 (UTC)

Catholic Church article

Hello! I am currently reviewing the article for the Catholic Church article, and I have about the proper usage of citations. There are a few instances in the article were lists of particular groups/organizations e.g.: Social services. Do the last two paragraphs still need a citation at the end of the paragraph?(I might have a few more questions to ask before this process is over, too...but not now) LeftAire (talk) 22:10, 29 March 2015 (UTC)

Good Lists

There is a proposal to set up a new classification level, Good List. Please add your comments there. --Redrose64 (talk) 10:13, 4 May 2015 (UTC)

Proposal to tweak Good Article Criteria for copyright violation and plagiarism

I propose we change parts 1 and 2 of the Good Article Criteria as follows:

A good article is—

  1. Well-written:
    1. the prose is clear and concise, it respects copyright laws, and the spelling and grammar are correct; and
    2. it complies with the Manual of Style guidelines for lead sections, layout, words to watch, fiction, and list incorporation.
  2. Verifiable with no original research:
    1. it contains a list of all references (sources of information), presented in accordance with the layout style guideline;
    2. all in-line citations are from reliable sources, including those for direct quotations, statistics, published opinion, counter-intuitive or controversial statements that are challenged or likely to be challenged, and contentious material relating to living persons—science-based articles should follow the scientific citation guidelines; and
    3. it contains no original research; and
    4. it contains no copyright violations nor plagiarism.

This was previously discussed back in 2011 and then again in 2013, but no action was taken at that time. Now that Wikipedia:Plagiarism has solidified as a guideline I think it makes sense to revisit.

Breaking out copyright violation from 1a makes it a more explicit requirement for reviewers to check before promoting articles. It also makes 1a be solely about prose quality. I see copyright and plagiarism to be more related to verifiability than well-writtenness, so it makes more sense to have it as a subpoint under 2 than 1.

A common objection to adding plagiarism explicitly to the criteria in previous discussions was the fear that complete plagiarism checks would be impractical for good article candidates with potentially 60+ sources cited, including offline sources. I would counter in two ways: first, that online plagiarism checkers would help greatly with this activity; and second, I would not interpret this language as outlawing source spot checks as opposed to full checks. If something is missed and is found later, the article can always be corrected or delisted.

What does everyone else think? –Grondemar 23:23, 11 October 2015 (UTC)

Question: I do not wish to complicate things, but notice above that the phrase "it contains a list of all references" is not linked to anything. The link Wikipedia:Citing sources exists. What about changing the phrase to "it contains a list of cited sources", including that link ? Prhartcom (talk) 23:39, 11 October 2015 (UTC)
I don't have a major objection to adding that link, but do note that if you click the layout style guideline link, you'll immediately go to a hatnote which links WP:Citing sources. That might be why it wasn't linked before. –Grondemar 14:11, 12 October 2015 (UTC)
  • Support - Related to that, I've had to fail two because the nominators (not significant contributors) checked nothing prior to nominating. Copyvio was an issue, among other things. I would be happier if the instructions/criteria said a nominator must be a significant contributor. Drive-by new editors have no clue what to check, or how to check it. — Maile (talk) 23:35, 11 October 2015 (UTC)
  • Support. A useful clarification. Also agree withUser:Prhartcom about linking to WP:Citing sources. It may not be possible or practicable for a reviewer to check all the sources for plagiarism, and this should not be expected. However an article should not be passed with a known plagiarism/copyright violation, though it is inevitable that occasionally articles will be passed with undiscovered violations, which could be grounds for deisting, if the discoverer is unable/unwilling to fix the problem, which is the obvious preferred action. • • • Peter (Southwood) (talk): 06:20, 12 October 2015 (UTC)
Thanks for the support of my Question above, and notice the link I posted to a tool to help reviewers identify plagiarism. Maybe we could provide that tool in the reviewer's {{Good article tools}}. Prhartcom (talk) 11:34, 12 October 2015 (UTC)
I would support adding Earwig's copyvio tool to the good article tools template. –Grondemar 14:11, 12 October 2015 (UTC)
I went ahead and added the tool. –Grondemar 01:54, 13 October 2015 (UTC)
Because it's a good idea to keep the first of the two points focused on writing quality, leaving the second point to focus on research quality. Prhartcom (talk) 11:52, 13 October 2015 (UTC)
Excessive quoting in blockquotes in large paragraph portions can also be bad. — Cirt (talk) 16:01, 13 October 2015 (UTC)
Example = this version of this article is almost all just blockquotes. We need to Keep the old wording, to guide against that sort of practice. — Cirt (talk) 16:03, 13 October 2015 (UTC)
See above; it was added. Prhartcom (talk) 14:17, 14 October 2015 (UTC)

As this discussion was open for just short of two months and no one was opposed, I went ahead and implemented the change in the criteria. Thanks to everyone who weighed in. –Grondemar 04:24, 2 December 2015 (UTC)

Stability in criterion 5

It seems that criterion 5 should also cover articles about ongoing events, that are therefore inherently unstable, but this is not stated. Am I missing something? FunkMonk (talk) 02:23, 9 October 2015 (UTC)

That makes sense. I'm new to this topic area and wonder if there are already some rules about how old an article must be before it can be nominated for GA status. Would six months be reasonable? -- BullRangifer (talk) 03:52, 30 December 2015 (UTC)

Stability not a quick-fail ?

Since when is Stability not a quick-fail ?

— Cirt (talk) 21:28, 15 October 2015 (UTC)

See Battle of Aleppo (2012–present). The short of the argument is that although it is a current event, a stalemate in the battle makes it stable (in spite of 150 edits since the nomination). Perhaps the FunkMonk comment above is a clarification on what "instability" is. There is wiggle room in Criteria 5 because it refers only to the edit history. Perhaps adding "current event" to Criteria 5 would prevent this in the future. — Maile (talk) 21:59, 15 October 2015 (UTC)
I was referring to edit-wars only. I remember there used to be a point in the Criteria for quick-fail for Stability due to ongoing edit-wars. Can we add this back in, please? — Cirt (talk) 22:00, 15 October 2015 (UTC)
That's still in the criteria. It's #5. — Maile (talk) 22:02, 15 October 2015 (UTC)
It's missing from quick-fail, at Wikipedia:Good_article_criteria#Immediate_failures. — Cirt (talk) 22:03, 15 October 2015 (UTC)
OK. I see that now. — Maile (talk) 22:09, 15 October 2015 (UTC)
 Done, I've added it. — Cirt (talk) 22:15, 15 October 2015 (UTC)

Not seeing any reason on the talk page why this was removed, after discussion with Maile66, over two (2) weeks ago. Will add it back, pending explanation here on the talk page. — Cirt (talk) 14:08, 5 November 2015 (UTC)

I'm new to this topic area and wonder if there are already some rules about how old an article must be before it can be nominated for GA status. Would six months be reasonable? -- BullRangifer (talk) 03:59, 30 December 2015 (UTC)

Lack of criticism as a problem

In connection with this delisting of Falun Gong, I thanked the delister and made the following observations on their talk page. They sent me here. The context of the comment was Falun Gong, but here I'd like to open up a discussion about the principle in general.

An article which does not contain any criticism is obviously in violation of NPOV, unless it's a totally uncontroversial subject, and Falun Gong is very controversial, so the lack is notable. When such an article is nominated for GA status, this lack should be mentioned as a condition for reconsideration:

  • "Add any criticism found in RS. Then reapply for GA status. We cannot accept articles where NPOV is being violated by omission or censorship of properly sourced negative information." (This should be included as part of the formal rules for consideration, as well as a ground for immediate immediate failure.)

The "NPOV test" of appropriate content balance (in articles which document points of view, biases, and controversies) is not the presence of positive and favorable content, but the presence or absence of properly sourced negative and controversial content, giving each their due weight. If the latter is minimal or missing, something is likely wrong and NPOV is being violated. The complete or partial removal of properly sourced content is generally not allowed and must be viewed with suspicion. Especially guard against the removal of properly sourced negative material. We don't write hagiographies or advertising brochures. Like Newton's third law, for every opinion there is likely an equal and opposite opinion out there which should be included. The NPOV test describes biased content which exists in an action-reaction relationship, and we must include both to maintain an NPOV homeostasis. Censorship upsets this balance by trying to remove negative opinions and facts. -- BullRangifer (talk) 04:11, 30 December 2015 (UTC)

WIAGA

WP:WIAGA

Let's keep this one, as it's the most commonly used shortcut.

Thank you,

— Cirt (talk) 20:51, 27 February 2016 (UTC)

Proposal to add wording between 2 b and c

"all material in the article is directly supported by external reliable sources"

This is the spirit of WP:V, which is linked in the first line of criterion 2 but is not directly elaborated in the criteria page, which seems like an oversight.

The other "subcriteria" to criterion 2 are all, with the exception of the current c, are either relatively minor concerns or have nothing to do with the criterion 2:

  • "presented in accordance with the layout style guideline" is a guideline, not a policy, and is not directly related to either V or NOR (I would say it's more closely related to criterion 1, as it is essentially little more than a cosmetic concern);
  • "all in-line citations are from reliable sources" is a given, but does not address the disturbingly common phenomenon of Wikipedians citing perfectly good sources that don't say what they cite them as saying;
  • "contains no copyright violations nor plagiarism" is not directly related to V or NOR, and is actually something of a "flip side" balancing act with V, as an unmarked/unattributed quotation is the opposite of an unverifiable misrepresentation ot misinterpretation of a source.

I'm not necessarily in favour of altering/deleting/moving any of the above, but an accurate summary of V should certainly also be included.

Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 08:54, 18 May 2016 (UTC)

@Redrose64: Noted, and I have altered my proposal accordingly. Sorry. I was initially going to say "replace b with a new b", and so I copy-pasted the wording before realizing my proposal was distinct enough from the current b as to justify being an addition rather than a replacement, and my replacement of the words "inline citations" was sloppy. I meant that where sources are cited (or should be cited), the article-matter needs to be directly supported by those sources, rather than an obscure/dubious interpretation of the source by one or more Wikipedians. This is already a requirement, as the main clause for criterion 2 says that material must be verifiable; it just seems kind of odd to me that we provide detailed elaboration of all aspects of this clause (some of which are minor stylistic concerns that aren't actually requirements) and don't give any clarification of what WP:V actually means. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 13:06, 18 May 2016 (UTC)

Stand-alone lists being nominated as Good Articles

FYI
 – Wikipedia talk:Good article nominations#Request for comment on stand-alone lists being nominated as Good Articles

--Redrose64 (talk) 22:58, 1 December 2016 (UTC)

Note that one of the three proposals in this RfC involves creating a separate "Good Lists" rating and process independent of the GA process. BlueMoonset (talk) 18:17, 5 December 2016 (UTC)

Readable prose threshold

Hi, looking over the editorial assessment criteria, I feel like good articles should have some guideline that dictates a general threshold of kilobytes of readable prose. For example, one of the criteria for C class is that the article be substantial in length, thus it follows that good articles should also be substantial in length. Would having a guideline for readable prose character count be considered acceptable? For the sake of argument, say 25 kB? Note that the example GA in the editorial assessment criteria is 36 kB readable prose. (Disclaimer: I've never nominated or reviewed a GA. I want to get into the process soon; in the meantime, this was just a thought that crossed my mind). Looking forward to knowing what everyone thinks. Icebob99 (talk) 02:00, 8 December 2016 (UTC)

I would like to add that in the case of articles like Morocco at the 2014 Winter Olympics, which gives a complete coverage but is only 5.5kB readable prose, the threshold could be waived. Icebob99 (talk) 02:03, 8 December 2016 (UTC)
  • Comment I think #3 (Broad in coverage) covers this well enough. Different articles will require different lengths to cover major aspects and arbitrary length requirements can create worse articles. I have always felt is better to keep these criteria open as much as possible and trust the judgements of the reviewers. AIRcorn (talk) 02:30, 8 December 2016 (UTC)
  • According to PetScan, there are over 9,000 good articles with less than 20 kb total article size (much less prose only), so prose minimum of 25 kb would be out of line with actual practice and could require re-evaluation of thousands of articles. --RL0919 (talk) 16:51, 8 December 2016 (UTC)
    RL0919 didn't know that stat. Presumably, some articles will have a lot less material than Roman Empire, just by nature of importance. I thought my example mentioned above (Morocco at the 2014 Winter Olympics) would only cover the exceptions, but obviously these 20kB or less articles have a pretty substantial majority. Icebob99 (talk) 17:38, 8 December 2016 (UTC)
  • Comment - Coming up with a count of "kilobytes of readable prose" might be difficult without a tool to generate that. Perhaps Icebob99 meant "characters" instead of "kilobytes". One could do an article of two sentence of prose, with the rest images, templates and an infobox, and still generate a sizeable article if all that counts is kilobytes. — Maile (talk) 17:22, 8 December 2016 (UTC)
There are a couple of tools available for calculating prose size, for example User:Dr pda/prosesize. --RL0919 (talk) 17:27, 8 December 2016 (UTC)
Interesting tool. — Maile (talk) 17:29, 8 December 2016 (UTC)
(post EC) Maile66 Sorry, that was an unclear wording, I meant characters of readable prose. I got the idea from the Africa destubathon criterion of 1.5kB readable prose. Readable prose according to the Dr pda tool doesn't include iboxes, templates, lists, or images. Icebob99 (talk) 17:38, 8 December 2016 (UTC)
  • Comment I'm going to withdraw my idea/proposal based on what RL0919 brought up. I think we can all agree that we want good articles to be nice and long so that they cover everything broadly, but given the difference between the topic depths of many articles, I think a threshold would not be very useful unless it were to contain ridiculously complicated exceptions, which defeats the purpose of simplicity that a threshold would have. Icebob99 (talk) 17:38, 8 December 2016 (UTC)

"In addition to meeting the policies regarding content for all Wikipedia articles"

Per discussion many years ago on the featured article criteria (wish I could pinpoint the actual convo in the short time I have right now), not all content policies are outlined in the criteria. It's mostly for obvious reasons (e.g. the criteria would become bloated). A GA should adhere to all content policies, even those not included in the criteria (WP:BLP, WP:NOT, WP:TITLE, etc.). —Deckiller (t-c-l) 06:04, 23 February 2017 (UTC)

I would like to suggest that if this is added, it be added either as a seventh criterion or as a line below the list of six, rather than an a priori (and highly duplicative) content policy list, since the bulk of the criteria do duplicate these policies. If on a line below, then "In addition, the article is expected to meet the policies regarding article content not already mentioned above, including on biographies of living persons, what Wikipedia is not, article titles, etc." If as a seventh criterion, then perhaps "7. Meets content policies: it meets all policies regarding article content not already mentioned in the other criteria, including on biographies of living persons, what Wikipedia is not, article titles, etc." BlueMoonset (talk) 18:44, 24 February 2017 (UTC)
[edit conflict] BLP and TITLE are unobjectionable. NOT is a big can of worms that I would prefer not to import wholesale here. And more generally, Wikipedia appears to have over 100 policies, judging by the size of Category:Wikipedia policies and its subcategories. Do we really want to demand that each GA reviewer be familiar with the nuances of and individually check each one of these? Or do you only mean the ones actually listed in Category:Wikipedia content policies? —David Eppstein (talk) 18:46, 24 February 2017 (UTC)
In 2006 or so, we added this line to the Featured Article criteria, because people were arguing that things like title policy and BLP did not apply to their FACs (or something along those lines):
"In addition to meeting the policies regarding content for all Wikipedia articles, it has the following attributes."
Basically, it was just a way to cover all bases in the criteria; it's honestly not that big of a deal. I think BlueMoonset makes a really good proposal. The criteria are transcluded everywhere, so it makes sense to incorporate it as such. —Deckiller (t-c-l) 00:42, 25 February 2017 (UTC)
  • Precisely what problem are we seeing that needs this solution? WP:CREEP seems to make this a poor idea. If there is a specific policy that is being missed, let us add it explicitly, rather than saying "and do everything else perfect, too". Jclemens (talk) 05:41, 25 February 2017 (UTC)
There are two things seriously wrong with this: (1) it duplicates essentially all of the existing criteria, as "CONTENT" isn't a criterion in itself, and worse (2) it is a bucket class (other people call this "etcetera", "miscellaneous", "dustbin") to which other criteria may be added at any time, introducing the risk of continuous creep (or confusion about it) into the GA criteria. Much better would be to add specific criteria, if indeed we need any more than we have already. Chiswick Chap (talk) 20:00, 26 February 2017 (UTC)
The primary reason I reverted Deckiller's original edit was related to Chiswick Chap's first point: it was not only a duplication, but in its addition to the preamble, repeated what we already had plus added a whole, indefinable extra group of stuff. Stated in many documents, including WIAGA itself, are GA's six criteria (a reason why adding a seventh was listed last in my original post here), but I wasn't endorsing this, just proposing a way to put any new criteria as an unnumbered addendum. It's a good point that this is WP:CREEP in two ways: one, by adding all the content policies, and two, that they can be expanded at any time.
It always seemed to me that the GA criteria had been deliberately constructed to take those things that were appropriate to a Good Article, and omit those things that weren't necessary. Hence essays like WP:GANOT, which explains what the criteria are not. Interestingly, that essay points out that WP:TITLE is beyond the scope of the criteria. This is not to say that an article's title won't come up during a review, since it sometimes does. An article can be moved there and then if nominator and reviewer agree, or there can be a disagreement over whether the move is appropriate. In the latter case, a move request is then made, separate from the GA review, which is ill-equipped to decide the issue—the ultimate name of the article is decided under those auspices. I can't count the number of times that a GA review page has been seemingly orphaned by an article move, and I've had to move the review page so it mirrors the new article name. So I'm not sure that this is a good criterion to add, though we might want to point out in the various GA process documents that the reviewer should feel free to discuss potential moves with the nominator and initiate a move request separate from the review.
WP:BLP doesn't seem to fit in anywhere among the criteria, except for the part of the verifiability criteria that touches on it, all in-line citations are from reliable sources, including those for ... contentious material relating to living persons. If we do wish to mandate this, perhaps it can be added as I suggested above. BlueMoonset (talk) 03:39, 28 February 2017 (UTC)

Fair enough. I'm fine with keeping the line out of the page if users find it unnecessary. GA process is different than FA; times have changed as well. I think the only point left to address is possibly incorporating WP:BLP into the criteria as a precautionary measure (per BlueMoonset above). —Deckiller (t-c-l) 04:14, 1 March 2017 (UTC)

As stated in the GAN talk page, it seems a bit silly to explicitly allow deadlinks for GA's. At a minimum, we should be following WP:DEADREF. While this may happen in practice, it is not explicitly stated in the criteria. As I read the criteria as written now, the URL can be dead as long as it is not a barelink. Thought? Pinging @Bungle and BlueMoonset: since they were in the discussion on the other page. Kees08 (talk) 06:00, 9 April 2017 (UTC)

Agree with Kees08. For what it's worth, this issue was decided on 2013 RFC. It's referenced to WP:GANOT See "Mistakes to Avoid" under section "Factually accurate ... " I would suggest that if this is changed in Footnote 5 of the Criteria, then other GA instructions that refer to it should also be changed. — Maile (talk) 12:20, 9 April 2017 (UTC)
Actually, that might not be as many as one would think. I've seen a bot recently checking for dead links and repairing them if possible. Is it the GreenC bot ? Maybe we could ask User:Green Cardamom about this. — Maile (talk) 17:51, 9 April 2017 (UTC)
There are two bots currently operating: WaybackMedic by myself and IABot by User:Cyberpower678. IABot is the primary dead link tool for Enwiki and can be accessed from the History tab "Fix dead links" .. anyone can run it for a article on demand. WaybackMedic is a more specialized tool for difficult to solve dead links and not available on-demand. IABot will convert bare links to CS1|2 etc.. try it out on an article to see what happens. -- GreenC 18:50, 9 April 2017 (UTC)
To add on to that, you can also queue the bot on a list of pages with this tool.—CYBERPOWER (Chat) 18:54, 9 April 2017 (UTC)
I don't think any amendment as proposed should be retrospective for existing GA articles that would, under the proposed amendment, fail the core criteria. The task of doing that would simply be immense, though i'd like to think that many GA reviews over time would have picked up on dead links and either had them addressed or worked around anyway. I do support a change in the criteria that would explicitly disallow ANY dead link where there is no clear alternative given, or at the absolute very least, where an archive link isn't provided. I am not a huge fan of archive links anyway, but it's certainly better than not being able to verify anything associated with the respective reference(s). Bungle (talk • contribs) 18:41, 9 April 2017 (UTC)
Maile, so what you were originally saying is that per the 2013 RFC, dead links are considered verifiable so long as they aren't bare URLs? (That's what I got from the closure I read at the link there.) That would seem to agree with the current criteria, but disagree with Kees08, but you say you agree. Can you please clarify? Thanks. BlueMoonset (talk) 18:46, 9 April 2017 (UTC)
BlueMoonset I agree that it's policy as defined by the 2013 RFC that dead links are considered verifiable so long as they aren't bare URLs. I also agree with Kees08 that it should be changed. Any new policy about this should be applicable to new reviews being done, not to what is already out there. Just change the policy for new reviews. — Maile (talk) 19:18, 9 April 2017 (UTC)
Maile, how can you possibly have one policy for new reviews and another for existing GAs? A GA is a GA: either dead links are okay or they're not. If you could state for sure that a link was alive at the time the GA was listed and therefore it was presumed to have been checked (a dangerous presumption), then I might see it—if explicitly stated in the criteria—but I can guarantee you we'll see reassessments popping up if we simply disallow them. A reassessment has to be done according to the GA rules at the time of the reassessment: does this article meet the GA criteria as they are now? BlueMoonset (talk) 19:58, 9 April 2017 (UTC)
BlueMoonset Well, let's not overthink this. You could say the same about any GA criteria that exists. Are there many GA re-assessments requested now? I don't really want to get into this issue too much, because I realize that GA policy is not necessarily identical to other review standards. It's just different, that's all. But in an ideal practice, anyone who nominates an article for anything ought to make sure the citations are correct and any links are live, at the time of nomination. — Maile (talk) 20:16, 9 April 2017 (UTC)
Hey, guess what - that new Fix deadlinks tool on the article's history page is really easy. I just ran it at John J. Pershing to try it out. Neat. Simple. — Maile (talk) 20:21, 9 April 2017 (UTC)
  • Treatment of dead links needs more nuance and consideration of context than simply a blanket declaration of acceptable vs. unacceptable. If a dead link is used as the only source for something that requires sourcing per the GA criteria, and not enough information is provided to rescue the material, then we have a problem that could be reasonable grounds for objecting to GA status. But there are many dead link situations that don't rise to that level: if the material has multiple sources, if the link is a convenience link to a source also available offline, if the material doesn't require citation under the GA criteria, if an archived copy is available, etc. There are also cases where material has more pressing problems than a dead link, such as obviously unreliable sources, inclusion of irrelevant detail, POV material, etc. The current footnote attempts to call out the most egregious problem of dead links that lack key information, without trying to legislate every judgment call about more complex scenarios. --RL0919 (talk) 19:27, 9 April 2017 (UTC)

@BlueMooset: How do I go about officially proposing this? I have never done an RfC before and do not know how, is that what I should be doing? Kees08(Talk) 05:56, 17 April 2017 (UTC)

Something failed criteria 2d:

  • Coping from a reliable source with citations → absolutely met the criteria 2 "verifiable", just a copyright violation
  • Coping from an unreliable source with citations → failed criteria 2b "verifiable"
  • Coping from any source without citation → failed criteria 2b or 2c "no original research"

In case one, it's interesting that an article met the criteria 2 but failed the criteria 2d. Why we binding copyvio with verifiable, put it to 2d but not 1c?--A Sword in the Wind (talk) 04:37, 2 October 2017 (UTC)

Copyright violation is one of the separate "immediate fail" criteria, so a reviewer doesn't need to align it against any of the regular reviewing criteria. --RL0919 (talk) 05:17, 2 October 2017 (UTC)

Proposal for 2e

Our criteria require that reviewers check all the listed sources to verify that they support the assertions. However, I'm concerned that many reviewers are skipping this altogether. Number 2 in the criteria has a link to WP:V which says: "The cited source must clearly support the material as presented in the article". It's not enough for a reviewer to see that there is a citation, but that the cited source actually has to be examined. Our criteria about verifiability currently has a note which says (in part): "At a bare minimum, check that the sources used are reliable (for example, blogs are not usually reliable sources) and that those you can access support the content of the article". My proposal is to promote this note into criteria 2e (or maybe make it 2a and move the others down the list). I recommend the following:

All of the sources checked substantiate the claims of the content they support. The reviewer is expected to check a majority if not all of the sources cited, with special attention to every quote and every statement likely to be challenged.

The attached note would then be moved to this new line and would then read:

Ideally, a reviewer will have access to all of the source material, and sufficient expertise to verify that the article reflects the content of the sources; this ideal is not often attained. At a bare minimum, check that the sources you can access support the content of the article (for example, inline citations lead to sources which agree with what the article says) and are not plagiarized (for example, close paraphrasing of source material should only be used where appropriate, with in text attribution if necessary).

I'd like to hear the consensus view on this. GA is an important step on the way to A-class and FA and I think this new wording would reinforce our existing standards. Chris Troutman (talk) 14:07, 17 January 2017 (UTC)

Maybe also mention that reviewers should check if the sources actually exist.--3family6 (Talk to me | See what I have done) 04:27, 18 January 2017 (UTC)
  • Question—I'm not seeing how what is being proposed above is different than the requirement already in 2b:

    reliable sources are cited inline. All content that could reasonably be challenged, except for plot summaries and that which summarizes cited content elsewhere in the article, must be cited no later than the end of the paragraph (or line if the content is not in prose)

    @Chris troutman: Could you clarify? –Grondemar 04:44, 18 January 2017 (UTC)
    @Grondemar: I want to specify what WP:V already says: that the citations have to actually be checked by the reviewer to ensure the citations support the content. This is already required as criterion 2 is verifiability. I think the wording I suggest makes this requirement clearer. Chris Troutman (talk) 13:37, 18 January 2017 (UTC)
  • I wholeheartedly agree with the observation made. In addition I think some nominators think that the sources are meant to satisfy reviewers (ie WP:V and WP:RS) but as a tertiary source or encyclopedia it should actually cite the best primary and secondary sources for further research - not necessarily that which is readily found online. So a slight change to the criterion that ensures that reviewers examine if the best sources on the topic and sub-topics have been reviewed and incorporated would help. Shyamal (talk) 08:13, 19 September 2017 (UTC)
I agree with the above in theory; the practical upshot comes when the sources are all offline and you cannot check them. Even then, there are ways you can ferret this information out of people eg: "Don't you think we should say something about 'x'" or other ways that basically force a source to be consulted to answer the question. Ritchie333 (talk) (cont) 12:46, 19 September 2017 (UTC)
How do you suggest we handle the case where neither the reviewer nor the nominator currently have access to a source if:
  1. The claim is entirely uncontroversial,
  2. The claim is uncontroversial to the nominator,
  3. The claim is uncontroversial to the reviewer?
How is the reviewer (or the nominator, for that matter) to know whether a specific resource is the "best available", for that matter what criteria is anyone to apply to identify the "best available" source, when even subject matter specialists may have differing opinions? This question can be further split into identifying the "best", which is one aspect where specialist opinion may be applicable and determining "availability", which may vary quite arbitrarily for off-line sources, and be subject to paywalls for on-line sources? · · · Peter (Southwood) (talk): 04:46, 16 October 2017 (UTC)

Extending WIAGA

Is it appropriate for a GA reviewer to require changes to an article that are not aimed at meeting the WP:WIAGA criteria? --Redrose64 🌹 (talk) 20:41, 17 September 2017 (UTC)

The key word here is "require". I think it is appropriate for a GA reviewer to suggest anything that they think would improve the article, but if they are going to insist on something as a condition of passing the review, then that should be connected to the criteria. --RL0919 (talk) 20:59, 17 September 2017 (UTC)
OK then, at Talk:London Waterloo station/GA1, The Rambling Man (talk · contribs) is requiring that links to redirects be bypassed. Not only can I not find any such requirement in WP:WIAGA, it is contrary to WP:NOTBROKEN, WP:EGG, and WP:LINKCLARITY. This is not the first GA where they have required such changes. I simply cannot get a reasonable answer to my repeated requests for an explanation. They either ignore me, revert me, or make unhelpful remarks like this. --Redrose64 🌹 (talk) 22:21, 18 September 2017 (UTC)
GA criteria 1b does not include MOSLINK and I think TRM's interpretation of SEAOFBLUE is wrong, too. I also see no evidence of "edit-warring" as a single content dispute does not violate WP:EW. The present version is stable. I think TRM should cede the point and approve the GA. Chris Troutman (talk) 22:38, 18 September 2017 (UTC)
Agreed. If the regular editors of the article don't want to change the links, the reviewer should move on from that item, and either pass or fail the article based on the actual GA criteria. If the regular editors don't agree among themselves about whether changing the links is a good idea, then my suggestion would be to allow the change (to reduce unnecessary drama over the GA review), then take up the question of the links as a Talk page discussion after the GA review is over. Since it isn't part of the GA criteria in the first place, it can be changed back later without triggering a GAR, if that is the consensus. --RL0919 (talk) 04:11, 19 September 2017 (UTC)

Who said "require"? Get a grip people. The Rambling Man (talk) 04:44, 19 September 2017 (UTC)

It is clear from this edit and later this one that you do not want redirects in the article. Although the first one says "Hungerford Bridge is piped to Hungerford Bridges which then redirects", the link was ... and [[Hungerford Bridge]]s and the ... which is not piped in any way, and it is further clear from this edit of yours that you will not permit redirects, and this edit by Ritchie333 (talk · contribs) that you do want it piped. --Redrose64 🌹 (talk) 07:13, 19 September 2017 (UTC)
Not at all, that's just your interpretation which I'm afraid is incorrect. Ritchie and I have worked very well indeed together on a number of articles, and suddenly you're there reading the riot act and misinterpreting my review comments. You insist on actively adding piped redirects (which I find bizarre) and you insist on obscuring prose, replacing it with piped redirects, and now the article is unstable so we have to delay the progress of the review, which is a shame because it was getting somewhere before all this hostility. And, for your reference, what I want and what I require are very different entities, please don't conflate them. The Rambling Man (talk) 07:42, 19 September 2017 (UTC)
I beg your pardon? In what way am I "actively adding piped redirects"? This edit uses a non-piped redirect; as does this one - which actually removed the pipe. Yet both were reverted out. How are they "obscuring prose"? --Redrose64 🌹 (talk) 16:40, 19 September 2017 (UTC)
As in the other forum, I'm not getting embroiled with such a hostile user. Your insistence on this pursuit has effectively driven me away from GAN, which I feel is a shame. Goodbye. The Rambling Man (talk) 17:54, 19 September 2017 (UTC)
I did not start off hostile. I may appear to have become hostile, but only because you have repeatedly asked for redirects to be removed, and when I ask for justification within the requirements of WP:WIAGA, you cannot provide any; yet you pursue your course.
A GA review is supposed to indicate how the nominated article satisfies, or does not satisfy, the GA criteria; and should also offer suggestions on how the shortfalls may be rectified (Wikipedia:Good article nominations/Instructions#Step 3: Reviewing the article gives this as "detailing what criteria it does not meet and state what is needed to bring the article up to standard"). Therefore, making observations like "Infobox - Hungerford Bridge is piped to Hungerford Bridges which then redirects. Cut out the middle man." implies that the presence of the redirect (which was not, in fact, piped) will prevent this article from being passed GA. If this is not one of the requirements for a GA pass, then it becomes a content matter, and as such, belongs on the article's main talk page and not in the GA review. --Redrose64 🌹 (talk) 19:29, 19 September 2017 (UTC)
  • To answer the first question, no reviewers should not require changes outside the criteria. However, the criteria are deliberately broad to allow some degree of interpretation. It is usually up to the reviewer and nominator to work through these interpretations together to come to a satisfactory result. It is also very common for good reviewers to offer advice on improving the article beyond the criteria. They shouldn't require these changes in order to pass the article, but in my experience most editors appreciate them and take them on board.
As to this specific case I am struggling to see what the issue is here. We seem to be talking about purely cosmetic changes. Is this really worth edit warring over? BTW I don't see this as defeating the stability requirement as both versions from what I can make out seem compliant with the criteria and the instability is only affecting a small locus. Saying that it can't pass with the big protection tag on the front of it, which seems a bit extreme considering the edit history. AIRcorn (talk) 00:46, 20 September 2017 (UTC)
Yes, and reviewer and nominator have worked very well numerous times in the past to produce good quality articles. Without all the hostility and badgering. I don't recall anyone saying anything about this article not being eligible to pass, regardless of the hysteria both here and at the review page. All of you, take some time out and chill. My review comments were my first pass, Ritchie and I have worked on many GANs before, always to a positive conclusion. This mad fuss out of leftfield really needs to be checked. The Rambling Man (talk) 20:43, 21 September 2017 (UTC)
Someone left a question here and I answered it, pretty accurately and fairly I thought. My second paragraph was merely referring to the if such edits continue then we wouldn't be able to consider this as a stable article part of the review. Stability is one of the more misused and misunderstood criteria here. Anyway, I was just trying to help, but you seem not to need it so I will leave you to it. AIRcorn (talk) 08:47, 23 September 2017 (UTC)
No, in fact we didn't need help from anyone, I've worked with Ritchie on numerous projects and they have all ended in success. The hostility and hysteria surrounding this review is a complete over-reaction, and those responsible deserve proper trouting. The Rambling Man (talk) 13:21, 23 September 2017 (UTC)
Instead of equivocating, just admit your were wrong and pass the article. Chris Troutman (talk) 20:52, 21 September 2017 (UTC)
I haven't finished reviewing it. I don't do half-arsed jobs. The Rambling Man (talk) 20:57, 21 September 2017 (UTC)

Gosh, storm in a teacup comes to mind here. Whilst I can see the point on both sides, I can't really think of any reason why this is even being discussed, unless TRM made any suggestion that the review comment, left unattended, would result in a failure (this doesn't seem to have been noted). I too often make suggestions/comments as part of a review for enhancements I feel would be beneficial, but not necessarily as a red-line determination for GA failure, and such a comment can be queried by the nominator, or indeed addressed if both parties agree. I think TRM should simply continue as was before, and make a decision outside of this discussion, as would have otherwise been the case; the "stability" argument is irrelevant. Bungle (talk • contribs) 21:03, 21 September 2017 (UTC)

Thank you, I will continue as before. Incidentally, the stability was an issue with the article being fully protected until earlier today. Trouts to all those who made false claims that I was about to fail this. Those making such claims clearly have no idea of my history in reviewing GANs. The Rambling Man (talk) 21:09, 21 September 2017 (UTC)
Perhaps some of the unnecessary dramah could be avoided if the reviewer was required to specify when an improvement was "recommended" as opposed to required. The word recommended, in parentheses, would probably suffice, as one can reasonably assume unspecified items to be intended as requirements. Clarity of communication often helps in these cases. The nominator can also ask for clarification where there is doubt, but time and goodwill can be saved by specifying from the start. · · · Peter (Southwood) (talk): 05:01, 16 October 2017 (UTC)

"Quick fail" criteria

I have raised some concerns about the "quick fail" criteria here. Comments welcome there- it's best if this can be kept in one place! Josh Milburn (talk) 22:07, 3 July 2017 (UTC)

Comment: This discussion has been closed. · · · Peter (Southwood) (talk): 05:45, 28 October 2017 (UTC)

Quickfail discussion at WT:GAN

I posted a note at WT:GAN about a suggested change to the criteria regarding quickfails; posting here to ensure everyone interested can chime in. (I realize now I should have had the discussion here and the pointer there.) Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 22:51, 5 March 2018 (UTC)

Verifiability criteria

Do the verifiability criteria imply that every paragraph must end with a citation? If so, this should be explicitly stated in the criteria, if not, reviewers should not require that every paragraph ends in a citation, and should not be permitted to fail a review based on this requirement. · · · Peter (Southwood) (talk): 06:44, 14 October 2017 (UTC)

If there is no citation at the end of a paragraph, how would you demonstrate that block of text is referenced and verifiable? Even if a citation is in the middle of a paragraph only, there may then be a question mark for the portion following it. If two paragraphs use the same reference, but only the latter has a citation, i'd still say it's reasonable to duplicate the citation on the first paragraph. I assume you are reacting to a recent review you have been involved with - perhaps you could link to a review your query is raised from? Bungle (talk • contribs) 07:51, 14 October 2017 (UTC)
I believe 2b already covers this. The cases that need inline citations include

"direct quotations, statistics, published opinion, counter-intuitive or controversial statements that are challenged or likely to be challenged, and contentious material relating to living persons"

. This is more stringent than the policy at WP:MINREF, but nowhere does it say that everything needs to be verified by an inline citation.
The question, however, was what to do if reviewers require inline citations for everything. If they do, they've challenged the content and it does require inline citations per both the criteria and MINREF. Reviewers are not obliged to ask for inline citations for everything but they, or anyone else for that matter, may do so if they want. – Finnusertop (talk ⋅ contribs) 12:44, 14 October 2017 (UTC)
Finnusertop has the right of it, even FA doesn't have this requirement for a cite every paragraph. To address the original question more I would add that a reviewer should specify which statement in the article requires a cite and not just ask for every paragraph to have a citation. Do you have an example of this happening as context matters? AIRcorn (talk) 21:16, 14 October 2017 (UTC)
I agree that there is nothing in the rules to stop a reviewer from insisting that one provides a reliable reference that the sky is blue, and for every other claim made in an article, no matter how trivial. This would imply a challenge to each unreferenced statement, for which the {{cn}} tag is appropriate. This allows one the option of arguing each point. What I refer to is a statement that the reviewer literally "requires every paragraph to end with a reference". I have an example here. The easy solution would be to move the ref to the end of the paragraph, as the chances are remote that anyone would check. but I prefer to keep my refs as close to the claim as reasonably practicable within the constraint of following punctuation. · · · Peter (Southwood) (talk): 13:53, 15 October 2017 (UTC)
The reviewer is not quite right to "require" it, yet as I said previously, it may otherwise be difficult to verify the content if one doesn't exist. If you can justly argue that a particular portion of an article doesn't actually need the end of the paragraph referenced, and that it still passes the GA criteria of being fully referenced and verified, then there would be no further requirement. Maybe the reviewer could have phrased the comment better, from "I require" to "the criteria generally requires.." or similar. An article can't be failed on verification if all the information is fully referenced, appropriately and clearly. Bungle (talk • contribs) 14:11, 15 October 2017 (UTC)
In those cases where the reviewer considers that specific uncited material needs citation, there is a simple and well accepted procedure for specifying the particular need - {{cn}}. My opinion is that this blanket requirement for a "reference at the end of every paragraph" is being used by some as a substitute for actually verifying the content in any meaningful way, as a superficial flag to suggest due diligence, and may be particularly prevalent where the reviewer is rushing through a review.
An article should not be failed if it meets the GA criteria, it should not have to exceed the criteria at the whim of the reviewer. It should not be acceptable for a reviewer to effectively extort compliance with personal preferences, they are entirely free to make all the personal preference edits they like when the article is not under review. The criteria draw a line, but it appears not to be enforced. Either the line should be enforced or, if there is consensus, the line should be drawn to represent actual practice. · · · Peter (Southwood) (talk): 05:35, 16 October 2017 (UTC)
No one seems to disagree with this, so I propose to add to the criteria a statement that no article may be quick-failed simply for not having a citation at the end of every paragraph. · · · Peter (Southwood) (talk): 05:30, 28 October 2017 (UTC)
Coming late to this discussion, but WP:SCICITE makes it explicit that a citation is not required in certain cases, subject to the challenge rule of course. I ran into this with group testing, which I passed as GA; it had no cites on some paragraphs, although in the end the editor added cites in most places. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 21:20, 11 March 2018 (UTC)
Peter, it's good practice to make sure there is at least one ref at the end of each paragraph. Please don't weaken the GA criteria any further. SarahSV (talk) 00:13, 12 March 2018 (UTC)
DYK rules do require at least one ref per paragraph. So if you want to take a new GA to DYK, you're going to have to follow that. But it's not in the actual GA rules and I don't think it should be. I think GA rule 2(c) requires that every claim be verifiable from reliable sources (otherwise it would be original research), and when I'm reviewing for GA I interpret that pretty strictly, but in general it should be up to the reviewer. There are good reasons for having some paragraphs not be sourced (e.g. when they're just an example that works through previously sourced definitions). On the other hand, I am skeptical that recent GA Hidden Markov model is adequately sourced; it has many entire sections without sources. I don't think that's good enough. —David Eppstein (talk) 00:27, 12 March 2018 (UTC)
The problem with the GA criteria is that they don't reflect the content policies. All articles, including GAs, are expected to comply with the three core content policies (NPOV, NOR and V) and BLP. Everything that is "challenged or likely to be challenged" needs a source per V, not only (as the GA criteria say) "counter-intuitive or controversial statements that are challenged or likely to be challenged". Material about living persons needs inline citations for "[a]ll quotations and any material challenged or likely to be challenged", not only (as the criteria say) if it is "contentious". SarahSV (talk) 02:01, 12 March 2018 (UTC)

Proposal for 6

Implemented, with slight adjustments. Feel free to tweak bolding and links if needed. TheDragonFire (talk) 14:27, 15 April 2018 (UTC)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The footnote says that by images, we really mean all media. It specifically says: "Other media, such as video or audio files, are also covered by the "images" criterion."

I propose we change the word images to media, and take out the footnote. Proposal:

  1. Illustrated, if possible, by media:[1]
    1. media is tagged with their copyright status, and valid fair use rationales are provided for non-free content; and
    2. media is relevant to the topic, and has suitable captions.[2]

Apologies for formatting, not sure how to make this list. Correct it if you would like. Thoughts? Kees08 (Talk) 06:26, 2 March 2018 (UTC)

References

  1. ^ Other media, such as video or audio files, are also covered by the "images" criterion.
  2. ^ The presence of images is not, in itself, a requirement. However, if images (or other media) with acceptable copyright status are appropriate and readily available, then such images should be provided.
I marked it up as a list. The page to amend is Wikipedia:Good article criteria/GAC; in that there are the following lines:
-->|6=Illustrated, if possible, by '''[[WP:Images|images]]'''<!--
-->|6a=images are [[WP:File copyright tags|tagged]] with their [[WP:FAQ/Copyright|copyright status]], and [[WP:Non-free use rationale guideline|valid fair use rationales]] are provided for [[WP:Non-free content|non-free content]]<!--
-->|6b= images are [[MOS:IMAGERELEVANCE|relevant]] to the topic, and have [[WP:CAPTION|suitable captions]]<!--
Mostly it's straightforward text changes, although I'm not sure what the present link images should be amended to. --Redrose64 🌹 (talk) 11:25, 2 March 2018 (UTC)
I agree; this makes sense. How about making it "Illustrated, if possible, by media such as images, video or audio"? Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 09:31, 6 March 2018 (UTC)
The closest I could find for a link was WP:Files, which redirects to the help namespace. Not sure if this is much better, although it has a better introduction to the File namespace. It is already linked in the footnote, but it could be moved up to the first mention. AIRcorn (talk) 10:20, 6 March 2018 (UTC)
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Proposal to modify Footnote 7

Implemented by Iazyges. TheDragonFire (talk) 14:40, 15 April 2018 (UTC)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Footnote 7 currently reads: Reverted vandalism, proposals to split or merge content, good faith improvements to the page (such as copy editing), and changes based on reviewers' suggestions do not apply to the "stable" criterion. Nominations for articles that are unstable because of non-constructive editing may be failed or placed on hold.. I propose to change it to Reverted vandalism, proposals to split or merge content, good faith improvements to the page (such as copy editing), and changes based on reviewers' suggestions do not apply to the "stable" criterion. Nominations for articles that are unstable because of disruptive editing may be failed or placed on hold., because while non-constructive editing is referenced within policies, none that I have found are actually named after such, whereas Wikipedia:Disruptive editing exists as a guideline. -- Iazyges Consermonor Opus meum 13:06, 20 March 2018 (UTC)

I'd be fine with this change. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 02:15, 21 March 2018 (UTC)
So the only change is to replace "non-constructive" with "disruptive". --Redrose64 🌹 (talk) 20:03, 21 March 2018 (UTC)
@Redrose64: correct. -- Iazyges Consermonor Opus meum 20:46, 21 March 2018 (UTC)
That seems harmless enough to me. —David Eppstein (talk) 21:21, 21 March 2018 (UTC)
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

"Broad in its coverage"

I need clarification according to criteria 3: "addresses the main aspects of the topic." Supposing that an article topic has around five secondary sources covering it and I've researched and summarized all of it. Does that means the article on the topic qualified this criteria? Because I see some short GA (such as ISO 3166-2:SJ) and think, wait, does that means an article topic that has very few sources can easily be GA? --Horus (talk) 19:01, 8 April 2018 (UTC)

@Mike Christie: Sorry for dragging you here, but I really would like to hear some input from those who are familiar with GA procedure. --Horus (talk) 11:59, 11 April 2018 (UTC)
Yes, something with very few sources can still be GA. It may not be possible to make every article an FA, but I don't think I've ever seen an article that would survive deletion that couldn't be a GA. Even a single secondary source would suffice, though deletion would be quite possible in that case; it would have to be a good quality source, which in turn would make it unlikely that there were no other sources. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 14:32, 11 April 2018 (UTC)
Got it. As few as it take not to be deleted, correct? --Horus (talk) 18:37, 11 April 2018 (UTC)
For an article to fail the broad criteria it must be demonstrated that something is missing through reliable sources. For example I recently came across a film Good Article that did not have a cast section. Since there are no reliable sources that give a list of the cast (it is a lost film) then it meets our definition of broad. As for surviving AFD that is not strictly true due to some loose definitions of the WP:SNGs. I have seen a sports bio nominated that consisted of just a single line, it was failed. AIRcorn (talk) 03:02, 12 April 2018 (UTC)
1) That film GA article, so it remains GA because no sources can be found on cast list? 2) What do reviewers need to do on "demonstrated that something is missing through reliable sources"? --Horus (talk) 08:24, 12 April 2018 (UTC)
You can't add info to an article if that info isn't published somewhere. Well you can, but that brings up other issues. As for demonstrating something is missing, all you need to do is show that what you think is missing can be sourced. Often a google search is all that is required. I should add that this is how I judge the broad criteria, other editors might take a different approach. It certainly wouldn't stack up with a Featured Article. There are no real bright lines at GA, it is mostly up to the individual reviewer and their interpretation. Others might see thing differently than me. As to your original question, yes it is much easier to bring a topic with only a few sources to GA level than one with a much broader focus. AIRcorn (talk) 22:42, 20 April 2018 (UTC)
Thanks. --Horus (talk) 17:46, 24 April 2018 (UTC)
As far as I'm aware the working standard is that, as long as major events/details, and why the article is notable, are covered, it fulfills broad in its coverage. For example, for a lot of Roman Emperors (my field), their birthdays and place of birth may be unknown, along with most of their early life. However, because their rule is known, they can make GA. -- Iazyges Consermonor Opus meum 19:39, 24 April 2018 (UTC)

Non-image maps

Should we count (non-image) dynamic maps as "images" for GA purposes? What about musical scores (see Girls and Boys Come Out To Play)? On the one hand, I don't think that 6(a) is comfortable fit, but 6(b) is probably just as relevant. WhatamIdoing (talk) 22:59, 23 August 2018 (UTC)

I think it should be counted for 6b. Suggest adding "<noinclude><ref>This criteria also applies to non-image illustrations.</ref></noinclude>" behind the end of 6b. Iazyges Consermonor Opus meum 00:42, 24 August 2018 (UTC)

Criteria questions

Hey, I couldn't find it mentioned in the criteria for GA, but I'll ask anyways. Do articles need to comply with Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Accessibility for a GA? Also, do sources need to be archived? Thanks. --Gonnym (talk) 21:47, 4 September 2018 (UTC)

@Gonnym: It's right there in The six good article criteria, criterion 1b - see in particular ref [2] which says "Compliance with other aspects of the Manual of Style or its subpages is not required for good articles." Criterion 2 requires verifiability, there is nothing about sources needing to be archived (or even that they be available on-line). --Redrose64 🌹 (talk) 22:04, 4 September 2018 (UTC)
Missed the note, thanks! --Gonnym (talk) 22:25, 4 September 2018 (UTC)

When to review against criteria question

Hello. I'm a newer GA reviewer. I only have two currently Talk:The High Llamas/GA1 and Talk:Tranquility Base Hotel & Casino/GA1. My question is about the reviewing process. For both of these nominations, I used the box to pass/fail individual criterias while I was reviewing the article. When a failed criteria is addressed and fully passed, should I update the criteria to a checkmark? Or should I wait until I'm finished reviewing and all issues are addressed to re-review the article? Thanks --MrLinkinPark333 (talk) 19:05, 8 September 2018 (UTC)

"Factually accurate"

In 2013, the requirement for factual accuracy was removed from the GA criteria. As listed, the GA criteria give no requirement for fact-checking factual accuracy beyond baseline verifiability, that contentious claims have appropriate (reliable, secondary, independent) sourcing. Some of the other guidelines haven't kept pace. The guidance for reviewers says that reviewers should "at a minimum" compare the article's claims against its openly accessible citations. Last year, a proposal to elevate that advice to the GA criteria did not pass. So which is it? Do we require fact-checking factual accuracy, and if so, how much? czar 22:20, 20 October 2018 (UTC)

Czar, what do you mean here by "accuracy"? Verifiability involves checking that the text is supported by the sources, and the sources should be decent and therefore, it is to be hoped, not wrong. But that's not quite the same as fact-checking or checking for accuracy. SarahSV (talk) 22:26, 20 October 2018 (UTC)
Verifiabilitycation involves checking that the text is supported by the sources. --Izno (talk) 22:39, 20 October 2018 (UTC)
"Verifiable" is to have claims sourced to reliable/secondary/independent refs or footnotes, such that a reader has the option of verifying the claim. In the case of reviewing, that's not the same as requiring "accuracy", for the reviewer to confirm those claims. Even in FA review, the guidance to spot-check is highly variable between users. I've always interpreted GARs as minimal competency criteria, like a driver's license—it ensures basic components but gives no guarantee of quality. If a review for factual accuracy (whether spot-check or more complete) is required, it should be stated as part of the criteria. If it's not, we should clarify the footnote. czar 22:46, 20 October 2018 (UTC)
"Factual accuracy" isn't part of the GA or FA criteria, so the term "fact checking" isn't appropriate. If the NYT publishes that someone was born in March 1970, we add that to their bio, and it's verifiable. A spot check will confirm that. But fact-checking would involve contacting that person or tracking down the birth certificate. We don't do that, except perhaps in cases where sources contradict each other. The discussion at FAC that seems to have triggered this discussion is about spot checking whether the text is supported by the sources, not fact checking whether the sources are correct. SarahSV (talk) 22:53, 20 October 2018 (UTC)
Ah, then to be more precise, I meant requiring "factual accuracy" (claim against the source) rather than newsroom fact-checking (source against the truth). czar 23:03, 20 October 2018 (UTC)
Okay, but that's not "factual accuracy". I'm not splitting hairs; it matters because the removal of the words "factual accuracy" from the GA criteria in 2013 isn't relevant to anything we're discussing here. We're talking only about checking that the text is supported by reliable sources for GA, and high-quality sources for FA. So far as I know, GA reviewers are expected make an effort to check that at least some of the sources do support the text. SarahSV (talk) 23:11, 20 October 2018 (UTC)
Right now, the GA criteria only requires "verifiability". Factual accuracy is a footnote to the criteria. The question for discussion is whether the minimum bar for GA is verifiability or factual accuracy. If the latter, that needs to be reflected in the actual criteria, not just the footnote. czar 00:42, 21 October 2018 (UTC)
The GA criteria require that the claims in an article comply with WP:V, the sourcing policy. This means that the sources must support (verify) the text. It doesn't mean "factual accuracy" (although of course we hope the sources are right); it means the claims in the text must be sourced. See point 2: "Verifiable with no original research". Also see the footnote after point 2 (bold added):

Wikipedia:Reviewing good articles says, "Ideally, a reviewer will have access to all of the source material, and sufficient expertise to verify that the article reflects the content of the sources; this ideal is not often attained. At a bare minimum, check that the sources used are reliable ... and that those you can access support the content of the article (for example, inline citations lead to sources which agree with what the article says) and are not plagiarized (for example, close paraphrasing of source material should only be used where appropriate, with in text attribution if necessary).

SarahSV (talk) 02:13, 21 October 2018 (UTC)
The criteria requires verifiable claims (WP:V), not that they be verified (what I called "factual accuracy"). The latter is only added in a footnote. If GA reviewers must verify claims, I'm saying this should be clearer in the actual criteria, not just a footnote. czar 14:12, 21 October 2018 (UTC)
Sources must be checked, otherwise we'd have convincing hoaxes promoted to GA. I floated a proposal a year ago to strengthen this language, as we have more editors who think review only includes enforcing MoS, instead of checking books out of the library. To my knowledge, Meshach was never in any authority here and that edit should have been reverted immediately and a warning issued. Chris Troutman (talk) 20:18, 21 October 2018 (UTC)

Could we avoid the term "factual accuracy"? It isn't a term used by the sourcing policies, and it's causing confusion.

Wikipedia:No original research requires that everything on Wikipedia be "verifiable". That is, a reliable published source must exist that supports the text; the text cannot be something an editor has made up or a conclusion an editor alone has reached.

Wikipedia:Verifiability goes a step further. Text must be not only verifiable but also supported by a source in the article (which is what we call "verified"): "All quotations, and any material whose verifiability has been challenged or is likely to be challenged, must include an inline citation that directly supports the material."

The issue that sparked this discussion was whether the GA criteria require spot checks (not "fact checking") to ensure that the source do support the text. It seems that they do, according to Wikipedia:Reviewing good articles, a guideline: "At a bare minimum, check that the sources ... you can access support the content of the article". The FAC coordinators request spot checks for first-time nominators and those who haven't nominated for a while. As things stand, the GA criteria appear to be more stringent on this point (in theory) than the FA criteria, which are supported by an essay (WP:FASOURCE) that says: "The extent to which spot checks are pursued is a matter for each reviewer." SarahSV (talk) 22:37, 21 October 2018 (UTC) (edited 14:26, 22 October 2018 (UTC))

  • I am not really seeing the contradiction. This page shows the requirements for an article to be classified Good, while the Wikipedia:Reviewing good articles page details how these requirements can be checked. In order to make sure an article is verifiable at least some of the sources need to be checked. Some pragmatism is required considering the difficulty in obtaining some sources. If anything the essay should be reworded to better reflect the criteria requirements. It should also be noted that the criteria only really requires sources for direct quotations, statistics, published opinion, counter-intuitive or controversial statements that are challenged or likely to be challenged, and contentious material relating to living persons so in many articles that narrows down the sources that need to be checked anyway. As for including "factual accuracy" in the criteria, given the genuine confusion here over that wording and it being redundent to what we already have I would be against adding it back in. AIRcorn (talk) 22:33, 22 October 2018 (UTC)
  • I agree that our stance at GA needs to be checking that information is verifiable (and comes from RS). We are not fact checking or checking factual accuracy. I don't think a change is needed. Best, Barkeep49 (talk) 21:15, 23 October 2018 (UTC)

Demand for stricter criteria

Over the years, I have seen a number of editors bringing up how faulty this GA system is. However, I think it's a great to enhance the quality of articles. But the criteria needs an update, especially with factual checking and register. Some reviewers take this for granted. THE NEW ImmortalWizard(chat) 20:46, 15 February 2019 (UTC)

Template-protected edit request on 10 April 2019

Please change 

{{Documentation|content=
==Usage==
Example:
:<code>{{Wikipedia:Good article criteria/GAC|1a}}</code> 
yields:
:{{Wikipedia:Good article criteria/GAC|1a}}
}}

to {{documentation}}. I have added this to the new documentation page, and this would allow non-template-editors to add categories for the template and otherwise improve its documentation. Thanks, --DannyS712 (talk) 06:08, 10 April 2019 (UTC)

@Bradv: can you take a look? --DannyS712 (talk) 06:08, 10 April 2019 (UTC)
 Done – bradv🍁 06:13, 10 April 2019 (UTC)

Potentially reword 0a

0a, "It is a long way from meeting any one of the six good article criteria" is ambiguous prose IMO. I initially interpreted it as meaning that a quick fail could happen if and only if all six of the criteria were a long way from being satisfied (i.e., "a long way from meeting any of the criteria"), but after looking at a few failed GANs and rereading it I came to interpret it as that if a single criterion was far from being satisfied, which I now think is the correct version.

If the latter interpretation is indeed correct I propose we reword 0a to the effect of "It is a long way from meeting at least one of the six good article criteria", which incidentally also covers articles that are a long way from meeting multiple criteria. John M Wolfson (talk) 03:39, 29 April 2019 (UTC)

Not so sure it is ambiguous, but fine with the change. Not sure it needs the italics though. AIRcorn (talk) 10:36, 29 April 2019 (UTC)
The italics are mine for emphasis (between the changes), my bad. John M Wolfson (talk) 11:17, 29 April 2019 (UTC)
Yeah, just change it from "any" to "at least", and no-one can possibly complain. The Rambling Man (talk) 11:19, 29 April 2019 (UTC)
I agree with AIRcorn and TRM. Best, Barkeep49 (talk) 14:40, 29 April 2019 (UTC)
It doesn't require a change because the original text is not ambiguous. Clearly, "any one of the six" does not mean "any of the six" as you misread it. Chris Troutman (talk) 10:40, 29 April 2019 (UTC)

Template-protected edit request on 28 May 2019

Template:QF-tags has been moved. Could I please remove it from 0c? 99721829Max (talk) 19:25, 28 May 2019 (UTC)

 Done – Jonesey95 (talk) 20:11, 28 May 2019 (UTC)

Understandability criterion

My proposal to add understandability as a criterion to GA has gained some support (see WP:VPR#Vote). Here are two ways I can think of to implement it:

  1. Add a new section, 1.c, in WP:GACR that reads: "It explains or avoids jargon where possible and is written for as broad an audience as possible". (similar to criterion 6. of WP:BCLASS)
  2. Modify section 1.a in WP:GACR to read: "the prose is clear and concise, the spelling and grammar are correct, and jargon is explained or avoided where possible;"

Which one of these seems preferable? Do you have another idea in mind on how to implement it?

Additionally, Trovatore wanted to make sure that it is specified that the reviewer should either be knowledgeable on the article's topic, or ask for expert help. Mentioning this in the criteria itself seems doesn't seem like a good idea. My idea is to append it at the end of the lead: "The good article criteria are the six standards or tests by which a good article nomination (GAN) may be compared and judged to be a good article (GA). A good article that has met the good article criteria may not have met the criteria for featured articles. Reviewers not familiar with the article's topic are expected to do basic research or ask for expert help."

Thoughts?--Megaman en m (talk) 09:11, 24 July 2019 (UTC)

1a proposal

Participants have come to a consensus that good article criterion 1a should read: The particular style (for example, Czar's proposed wording) and whether to include a footnote can be handled in later discussions. Thank you to everyone who participated; this edit implemented the change. Wug·a·po·des​ 20:19, 1 September 2019 (UTC)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Should Good article criterion 1a be changed from the prose is clear and concise, and the spelling and grammar are correct; and to the prose is clear, concise, and understandable to an appropriately broad audience; spelling and grammar are correct? 07:10, 27 July 2019 (UTC)

the prose is clear and concise, technical terms are explained or avoided where possible[1], and the spelling and grammar are correct}}? 21:24, 24 July 2019 (UTC)

References

  1. ^ While articles on general topics should provide a broadly understandable overview of the topic, articles on specialized topics can assume appropriate background knowledge.

Poll

  1. Support -- Iazyges Consermonor Opus meum 17:28, 25 July 2019 (UTC)
  2. Support Mostly for reasons of common sense - being understandable/accessible to people who are likely to read about the subject is absolutely a quality we should require of the articles we label as being among Wikipedia's best. The guidelines WP:MTAU and WP:AUDIENCE show that there's community agreement around the goal of broad accessibility. This is already something I think about when doing GA reviews (and I imagine many others do too), but I think it's important to spell it out in the WP:GACR. Consistency with WP:B? is a happy side effect. I would have a slight preference for adding a new '1c' criterion, but it's looking like that's unlikely to gain consensus support at the moment. Colin M (talk) 21:26, 25 July 2019 (UTC)
  3. Oppose I think that some tweaking of this criteria could be made, but this hasn't had the polishing necessary to make the change quite yet. I think this tweak is too narrow and gets at merely one aspect of what it's trying to accomplish. Given that the GA criterion have been fairly stable for a long time I also worry about upsetting a lot of precedent without firmer understanding of what's replacing it. Best, Barkeep49 (talk) 14:49, 26 July 2019 (UTC)
  4. Support An elegant phrasing that gets the point across.--Megaman en m (talk) 08:34, 27 July 2019 (UTC)
  5. Support. This is a very appropriate standard for Good Articles, and the 27 July phrasing is much better than the phrasing initially suggested on 24 July. P.S. Wugapodes RFCs are often much easier for new arrivals if the RFC statement shows the status-quo version as well as the proposed version. That makes it so much easier to get grounded in what is being discussed, and easier to isolate what would change. I also suggest tossing in a link to WP:Good_article_criteria#Criteria to conveniently view the full criteria. Alsee (talk) 05:22, 28 July 2019 (UTC)
  6. Support as phrased. I consider this part of "clarity" but I consider the distinction warranted, based on the general incomprehensibility of some "walled garden" topic areas on Wikipedia. WP:MTAU is sufficient for the link, if not more specifically WP:GENAUD. czar 16:59, 28 July 2019 (UTC)
  7. Oppose (hopefully only temporarily) unless/until the inappropriate link on "assume appropriate background knowledge" in the footnote is fixed, per my comments below. —David Eppstein (talk) 19:22, 1 August 2019 (UTC)
  8. Oppose in current form; the wikilink on "assume appropriate background knowledge" seems at best irrelevant and redundant with WP:MTAU already being linked. XOR'easter (talk) 23:45, 1 August 2019 (UTC)
  9. Support This covers a problem that is more prevalent that many realize, especially on technical articles. It's not a matter of technical terms......those are covered by the "appropriately" . It's a matter of doing a poor job of presenting/ explaining the topic. North8000 (talk) 11:56, 9 August 2019 (UTC)
  10. Support—pragmatically, this is something I've generally harped on in all my content reviews, and it's pretty important. We should aim for a basic level of comprehension that doesn't require linking away from the article entirely. Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs talk 16:59, 14 August 2019 (UTC)
  11. Support - sometimes it is not obvious what the appropriate level for the article is, but it may well be a good thing to establish. GAN would be a place do do this if it has not been done. · · · Peter Southwood (talk): 09:22, 17 August 2019 (UTC)

Discussion

  • I like this, but I'm concerned it's a little too specific. Avoiding technical terms is only part of making an article understandable to an appropriately broad audience. For example, see WP:OBVIOUS. The problem in the Thunderbird example there isn't that it uses technical language, but rather that it omits important background information that readers within the article's audience might not be aware of. For this reason, I prefer the more general wording of WP:B?#6, or the proposed 1c above. Colin M (talk) 20:38, 25 July 2019 (UTC)
Also, I disagree that technical language should be omitted entirely, as long as it can be explained in parenthesis. No need to dumb down articles, people are here to learn something new. FunkMonk (talk) 20:53, 25 July 2019 (UTC)
Yeah, I think everyone's on the same page there, it's just hard to convey the nuances and trade-offs with literally just a few words. I agree "avoided where possible" might be a little too strong. Maybe one of the following would be fairer:
Colin M (talk) 21:42, 25 July 2019 (UTC)
I'm in favor of Colin's wording.--Megaman en m (talk) 09:39, 26 July 2019 (UTC)
@Megaman en m: criterion (singular criteria); a criterium is a bike race and hasn't been used in that formulation for...? Good one! ——SerialNumber54129 14:57, 26 July 2019 (UTC)
I never realized that. The singular form of criteria is actually critirium in Dutch, but not English. Changed to criterion.--Megaman en m (talk) 15:36, 26 July 2019 (UTC)
No problem  :) I thought you were being ironic about "understandability"! ——SerialNumber54129 16:16, 26 July 2019 (UTC)
  • I've updated the question with Colin M's wording, though I changed the link from WP:AUDIENCE to WP:MTAU which based on the VPProp discussion seems to capture the spirit of "appropriately broad" better than AUDIENCE, though that essay is still linked in the supplemental footnote. If people feel strongly about the link targets that can be discussed as well. Wug·a·po·des​ 07:10, 27 July 2019 (UTC)
    • I'm partial to WP:AUDIENCE for a couple reasons: 1) It's a little more general, in that it's not limited to "technical articles". Again, I like the example in the WP:OBVIOUS section, which uses the first sentence of the article Ford Thunderbird (which most probably wouldn't call a technical article). 2) I personally find it more concise and well-written. Also, I think the "Use of chromatic scales in early Baroque music" example does a good job of capturing the "appropriately broad" spirit.
    On the other hand, WP:MTAU is a guideline, and WP:AUDIENCE is part of an "explanatory supplement" to the MoS, so theoretically the former could be said to have a stronger consensus behind it. Though in practice, I see sections of WP:BETTER (such as WP:AUDIENCE, WP:ASTONISH, WP:TONE) cited a lot more than WP:MTAU. Would be curious to hear what others think. Colin M (talk) 15:53, 27 July 2019 (UTC)
    I have to admit that my usual experience of the {{technical}} tag (which goes along with MTAU) is drive-by tagging of articles on technical topics by editors who do not understand the article and therefore think it is too technical. But because they do not understand the topic of the article, they also do not understand how much background knowledge might be expected of readers of the article and therefore what the appropriate level of writing for the topic should be. More often than not, they end up inappropriately tagging articles that are already written at the appropriate level. I realize that is not the intent with the current proposal, but I think we have to think ahead to how inexperienced GA reviewers might act rather than how we might ideally want them to act. In the case of the "technical" tag, it doesn't help that the tag asks editors to "make it understandable to non-experts" rather than the more careful wording of WP:MTAU to only do this "as far as possible for the widest possible general audience". So we need to be very careful how we write this. In that vein, I don't think the current proposal's choice of Wikipedia:Summary style as the link target for "assume appropriate background knowledge" is a good one. It is likely to lead reviewers to ask for technical articles to be rewritten in summary style, merely because they are technical. Summary style is not about and should not be about making it possible for readers without the appropriate background knowledge to read an article; it solves a different problem (topics that are too big to fit comfortably into a single article so they need to be broken up into smaller pieces). —David Eppstein (talk) 06:26, 28 July 2019 (UTC)
    I've had similar experiences with the {{technical}} tag. Often, the real problem with the article is not that it is full of technical terms, but that it's an infodump by somebody who never learned how to write clearly, worked over by other people who never learned how to write clearly — you know, scientists. An improved version of such an article might be equally "technical", yet actually accessible to a more broad audience. It's like the difference between a theorem expressed in the terse style of a journal article, versus the decompressed version that a mathematician might give in a textbook or a memoir. XOR'easter (talk) 16:45, 28 July 2019 (UTC)
  • An alternative, for parallelism:

    the prose is grammatically correct, clear, concise, and understandable to an appropriately broad audience.[1]

    czar 17:07, 28 July 2019 (UTC)
  • Three days without a comment, do we have a consensus?--Megaman en m (talk) 07:38, 1 August 2019 (UTC)
    Just five days into a thirty-day RfC? I think not. --Redrose64 🌹 (talk) 11:49, 1 August 2019 (UTC)
    Alright, I was not aware that 30 days had to pass.--Megaman en m (talk) 13:25, 1 August 2019 (UTC)
    The only thing significant about 30 days is that it's the period after which a bot will automatically remove the RfC template. See WP:RFCEND: An RfC should last until enough comment has been received that consensus is reached, or until it is apparent it won't be. There is no required minimum or maximum duration. I think rough consensus is looking pretty clear at this point, but since this is a fairly high-impact change, I don't think it would hurt to wait another week. 6 responses is not a great turnout. Colin M (talk) 14:44, 1 August 2019 (UTC)
    I've posted a notice at WT:GA to get wider feedback. Barkeep49 is right that this has some rather wide implications, and I think the more feedback the better so I'd recommend leaving it open for the full 30 days. No deadline and all that. Wug·a·po·des​ 23:23, 3 August 2019 (UTC)
  • If it helps the proposal pass, I'm in favor of dropping the "summary style" link within the footnote. czar 19:48, 3 August 2019 (UTC)
  • Given the feedback from David and XOReaster, I've removed the footnote which is largely redundant with the MTAU link. Hopefully this version covers all the bases, but it's changed a couple times since the RfC started, so I'm pinging all the participants so they can take another look at it and make sure it has consensus. @Iazyges, Colin M, Barkeep49, Megaman en m, Alsee, David Eppstein, and XOR'easter:. Wug·a·po·des​ 23:17, 3 August 2019 (UTC)
    Support current proposal. Iazyges Consermonor Opus meum 23:19, 3 August 2019 (UTC)
    Support current proposal. Alsee (talk) 06:55, 4 August 2019 (UTC)
    Support current proposal. --Megaman en m (talk) 08:33, 4 August 2019 (UTC)
    Support Colin M (talk) 16:31, 4 August 2019 (UTC)
    Support as revised. XOR'easter (talk) 19:13, 6 August 2019 (UTC)
    Support as revised. —David Eppstein (talk) 04:51, 7 August 2019 (UTC)
    It's been 30 days, is this enough for a consensus?--Megaman en m (talk) 08:36, 25 August 2019 (UTC)
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Criterion #2 Doesn't seem to actually require everything to be cited

The consensus is against the proposed change of #2b from all inline citations are from reliable sources, ... to all prose paragraphs have at least one inline citation, and all inline citations are from reliable sources....

Cunard (talk) 01:19, 22 September 2019 (UTC)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

I noticed that no-where in the verifiability criterion does it actually state that all the prose within an article must be cited. It only requires a list of citations, that all citations be reliable, that no OR takes place, and no copy-vio or plagiarism. Nowhere does it actually say "all elements of the article must be cited." It's mostly semantic, but I'd suggest updating #2b from all inline citations are from reliable sources, ... to all prose paragraphs have at least one inline citation, and all inline citations are from reliable sources... Iazyges Consermonor Opus meum 17:16, 30 July 2019 (UTC)

  • Support but I don't think that goes far enough. My prior proposal sought to require fact-checking, as the way the criteria reads now one might assume that the presence of citations from reliable sources doesn't require that each citation is checked to ensure all the text is supported. The giant loophole about sources you have access to allows many editors to just affirm that sources have been cited even if the article is a hoax. Chris Troutman (talk) 17:22, 30 July 2019 (UTC)
  • Comment why doesn't WP:V and WP:RS apply to good articles? The Rambling Man (REJOICE!) 17:26, 30 July 2019 (UTC)
  • Per WP:MINREF unless the article contains specific kinds of claims (challenged, quotes, BLP, etc), it is not required to cite any sources. That said, I think it is completely reasonable for GAs to have a higher than minimum standard for sourcing and would be fine clarifying criterion 2. Wug·a·po·des​ 17:32, 30 July 2019 (UTC)
  • Oppose all prose paragraphs have at least one inline citation is completely arbitrary and not based on policy. The current wording of the criterion lists WP:MINREF and quite a few other types of claims for which inline citations are needed. – Finnusertop (talk ⋅ contribs) 18:01, 30 July 2019 (UTC)
  • Question is this some hypothetical problem or are there examples of uncited information which couldn't be verified (aka are false) been found in articles? I ask because I spend a considerable amount of my GA review time verifying information and have had the same experience when others have reviewed my nominations. Best, Barkeep49 (talk) 18:22, 30 July 2019 (UTC)
    @Barkeep49: I failed this GAN due to citation problems. Had I not, it would be a GA with lots of factual errors. Chris Troutman (talk) 18:48, 30 July 2019 (UTC)
  • Oppose (in current form) WP:CITEDENSE specifically says there is no "one citation per paragraph" rule. The GA criteria also link to WP:V, which states that "All content must be verifiable." I don't really see the problem here.--Megaman en m (talk) 19:38, 30 July 2019 (UTC)
    @Megaman en m: I have noticed that some editors translate WP:V to mean that a source might exist to verify a claim in an article, not that the source has been cited and that the source does in fact support the content. To them, V only prevents content to which there isn't likely a published source. Couple that with editors that don't check every citation and you have GAs that contain errors. Chris Troutman (talk) 19:47, 30 July 2019 (UTC)
    WP:UNSOURCED still mentions that contentious material needs inline citations. However, I do agree that GA articles should go above bare minimum citation requirements. I just don't think that forcing a one citation per paragraph rule is the right way to go. It might be better to include Wikipedia:When to cite as a wikilink somewhere for example. It states that close paraphrasing should also be cited along with opinions, data and statistics.--Megaman en m (talk) 08:46, 31 July 2019 (UTC)
  • Oppose as written - as others have said, 1 citation per paragraph is arbitrary and has no policy basis. However, I do think the wording could be improved. I've always interpreted 2b as saying I) All inline citations are from reliable sources, and II) Citations are provided for all direct quotations, statistics, published opinion, etc. However, it technically doesn't say II, at least under a literal reading. I think this is just an unfortunate result of trying to keep the wording of each criterion brief and within a single sentence. Colin M (talk) 21:52, 31 July 2019 (UTC)
  • Oppose all prose paragraphs have at least one inline citation is both policy creep and a gamification of the writing process. XOR'easter (talk) 23:47, 1 August 2019 (UTC)
    I think it will generally work out that high-quality articles will have at least one footnote per paragraph, if for no other reason than that's the style of writing that people who hang out here get accustomed to. But setting a numerical citation density as the threshold to pass strikes me as the wrong way to go. It's inventing a number as a substitute for thinking. The "rule of thumb" mentioned below, with its sensible exceptions (e.g., plot summaries that only need to be "sourced" to the thing they are summarizing), seems a better way to approach the question. XOR'easter (talk) 02:35, 2 August 2019 (UTC)
  • Oppose as stated, but I'm open to a less-strict wording. Roughly the same requirement for each paragraph to have at least one citation holds for DYK (supplementary rule D2). It seems strange to me that an article could pass GA and thereby become eligible for DYK but not pass the DYK review because it wasn't well enough cited. On the other hand, the DYK requirement admits exceptions (it states it as a "rule of thumb", and excepts "the lead, plot summaries, and paragraphs which summarize other cited content"). In practice when I review articles for GA I require each claim to be cited (somewhere in the following text), but as for DYK I don't ask for citations at points in the article that summarize later material, and if a single citation suffices for multiple consecutive paragraphs I think it should be ok to have a single footnote at the end of the last paragraph rather than requiring it to be repeated. —David Eppstein (talk) 00:15, 2 August 2019 (UTC)
    David, the problem with that style is that someone only has to add a statement with an inline ref somewhere in one of the middle paragraphs and it becomes completely unclear whether the first paragraph is cited at all, let alone by the ref at the end of the last paragraph. The same applies to some extent to citing a multi-sentence paragraph just once (and yes, I do that like the rest of you); any addition causes problems as people frequently don't think to repeat the existing citation just before the addition. I think the solution is not to do wordsmithing on the criterion but to automate the connection between cited text (of any number of sentences or paragraphs) and the citation, i.e. it's a managed data structure not an unmanaged/unmanageable text-tangle. If only. Till that far-off day, we really ought to cite every sentence, and if that's too hard, then every paragraph. Chiswick Chap (talk) 20:21, 2 August 2019 (UTC)
    Your same objection[1] would apply[1] to any style less strict than a citation[1] for each separate clause[1] of each sentence.[1] We're not going there.[1] —David Eppstein (talk) 22:13, 2 August 2019 (UTC)
    Indeed not, but then people are generally happy for sentences supported by multiple refs to have all the refs at the end: less good when there are a dozen refs in a paragraph [all at the end together], so you're overstating your case. Chiswick Chap (talk) 08:44, 3 August 2019 (UTC)
    Do you want to send NBR 224 and 420 Classes to WP:GAR then? --Redrose64 🌹 (talk) 17:08, 3 August 2019 (UTC)
    I don't see any lists of 12 refs all clumped together at the end of any paragraph in that article. I've added a [...] note above in clarification. Chiswick Chap (talk) 17:36, 3 August 2019 (UTC)
  • Strong Oppose The current version is already problematic.....it departs from policy. This would make it even worse. The current problem is that it misstates policy. Policy places a sourcing requirement for the presence of text. It does not place a requirement for the presence of a source. For example, let's say that there is some text which is already sourced to fulfill wp:ver. It may be useful to add a source which has real-world reliability which does not fulfill the trappings of wp:rs.North8000 (talk) 12:04, 9 August 2019 (UTC)
  • Oppose, If the reviewer has any doubts about any statement, they are free to add a {{cn}} template to every statement that they consider needs a reference, and be willing to explain why. Sometimes we need a citation for every statement in a paragraph. Other times it may be overkill, and sometimes it may indicate that the point has not been expressed very clearly. · · · Peter Southwood (talk): 09:36, 17 August 2019 (UTC)
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Mismatch

There is today quite a sharp mismatch between the quick-fail criteria on this page and the Template:QF. Presumably the template needs to be updated. Chiswick Chap (talk) 17:10, 31 July 2019 (UTC)

I agree it could be better. It is a newish template so I have left a message at the template talk page Template talk:QF#Match with GA fail criteria. AIRcorn (talk) 02:21, 19 January 2020 (UTC)
Many thanks. Chiswick Chap (talk) 10:08, 19 January 2020 (UTC)

Scientific citation guidelines

Currently under the Verifiable criteria we say science-based articles should follow the scientific citation guidelines. I am not terribly impressed with that how-to guideline. In particular how it doesn't encourage the use of inline citations. It almost seems weaker than a lot of other sourcing requirements. I am not a fan of how it is written either. I left a comment at the talk page and one solution would be to rewrite it better if there is no or agreeing response there. I was thinking however we may be better linking to Wikipedia:Identifying reliable sources (science) as it actually provide information on what makes a science source reliable and is much better maintained. It has been used as justification to pass an article (Talk:Hidden Markov model/GA1) which I feel is probably not up to standard. AIRcorn (talk) 02:40, 19 January 2020 (UTC)

For any editors commenting here just a FYI that there has been only a few responses at Wikipedia talk:Scientific citation guidelines#Update needed? and it has been suggested that it might be best to make it historical. I will probably start a RFC to draw more attention to it soon. AIRcorn (talk) 04:25, 27 January 2020 (UTC)
I support changing criteria to WP:SCIRS Kingsif (talk) 01:14, 29 January 2020 (UTC)
@Kingsif: I have been thinking more about this and am wondering if there is any reason to single out scientific sourcing requirements. To my mind our strongest sourcing requirements are for BLPs and Medicine related articles. Maybe we would be better linking to WP:BLPRS and WP:MEDRS instead or as well. Or maybe none. I am probably over complicating things and these two are pretty much accepted practice in general at any article, let alone one we want to make "Good". We could add replace the current wording for something along the lines of content relating to living people, medicine or science must follow the BLP, medicine and science sourcing guidelines, deleting whatever ones we don't need. One potential sicking point is that BLP is policy, meds is a guideline and Sci is an essay. AIRcorn (talk) 06:52, 30 January 2020 (UTC)
No, MEDRS is quite rightly different from and generally more stringent than normal scientific articles. It's quite appropriate to use a cladogram (phylogenetic tree) based on one author's detailed analysis of dozens, often hundreds of species, for example, whereas it is not allowed to base a medical claim on anything less than a systematic review (preferably several such). This is logical, as medical claims imply sufficient certainty for life-or-death treatment, whereas scientific claims are always provisional, even Newton and Einstein after all. As for BLP, clearly they only apply to scientists, not science as such; and they are already enforced on scientist's biographies. Chiswick Chap (talk) 10:26, 31 January 2020 (UTC)

Hi all, please share your thoughts here. Ajpolino (talk) 16:09, 2 February 2020 (UTC)

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