User talk:Victoriaearle/Archive 20

H.D. and stuff

Just a note to thank you for the extensive copy edits and guidance on the H.D. article. If it were not for you Sandy would have, rightfully, eaten me alive. In other news Liz is in the US again with her father; we had a good month together over May/June during which we saw [Pet Shop Boys] and she broke her foot (but when going home was met by and push through the airport ques by a handsome young man bearing a wheelchair, and are Lingus bumped her to first class :)). Her father is very down, and I'lll be there again in the first week of August. He was 82 yesterday and would have been married 54 years on Sunday had his wife, Enis, not died in February. We are coping and that's our story. Best as always. Ceoil (talk) 11:33, 9 July 2022 (UTC)

Sorry for not following through.

I got sidetracked trying to find Parker's The Lesbian Muse and Poetic Identity, 1889–1930, which I managed to access here via the Wikipedia Library (don't know if you can see it), downloaded the chapter about H.D and Bryher and wanted to read it. It's interesting b/c Parker's take on the Hilda/Pound relationship is that he objectified her from the beginning. I.e he labeled her "Dryad" (which should be in the article) and later "cast himself as the impresario of her talent". Can send on the chapter if you want.

The chapter in Friedman's Signets called "H.D and Origins of Imagism" (page 88 onwards) is somewhat related in that it spins out the idea that H.D. achieved the concept of imagism w/ concrete images much earlier than Pound. In other words he learned from her; she paved the way.

I also found & downloaded Willis, Elizabeth. "A Public History of the Dividing Line: H.D., the Bomb, and the Roots of the Postmodern", but again didn't follow through. Am happy to send this along to you if you're interested.

Anyway, I wasn't able to get back to any this. In other words, failed to execute.

Thanks for the news, very sorry to hear about Liz's broken foot (but at least she had an attractive escort & upgraded plane seat), but happy to hear you were reunited for some time together. Sometimes coping is the best that a person can do. I can relate.

I might try to swing back through H. D. this weekend if I'm able but don't hold your breath. Best as always to you too. Victoria (tk) 16:31, 9 July 2022 (UTC)

You always under sell yourself; you have done a lot for H.D., directly on the article, on my talk, and here. I don't have access to cambridge-org.(Brexit or something) can you send pls. Am going to ask Nikki for another week or two as the page needs to be further expanded. Although we are taking about h.d now, its really not the point. Lets otherwise stay in touch. Best. Ceoil (talk) 23:12, 9 July 2022 (UTC)

You probably have access via the Wikipedia Library but I cannot explain how I get there. I click through about five pages, starting at WP:TWL, log in a few times, search a bit and for some reason find I have access to some databases, click around some more and voila! I'm sure NM can give you a much more elegant explanation. Anyway, have sent on those pdfs; if your email isn't working let me know. Swapping sources is a start. Victoria (tk) 23:41, 9 July 2022 (UTC)

Re email Its hard to reply on email and give a pity summary of where life is, as life is very complicated, but will do. Right now Liz is back in the states and I'll be there for a week or two mid Aug, but for us this song about sums up the last 2 years[1] Ceoil (talk) 17:06, 15 July 2022 (UTC)

'd give my left nut to spend a few years in the US, but for reasons its not practice. Hrump. Ceoil (talk) 17:11, 15 July 2022 (UTC)

Yes, I understand & can relate. No worries. Victoria (tk) 13:58, 16 July 2022 (UTC)

I've made some edits there. Most are minor, in a few instances I shoved some text around, and a couple of places are a still a bit rough. But I've run about steam and need to stop. Please revert and/or delete anything you don't agree with. I think it's coming along very nicely. It's an interesting page. Victoria (tk) 23:27, 31 July 2022 (UTC)

Sorry to drag you back in, as the mafia would say :) You edits have been hardly minor, and so appreciated, but it now seems like a longer -project that expected. I'm drowning in sources, which is great, but can you keep an eye pls on the appraisal stuff, esp wrt feminism, obvs I am under qualified here. On more familiar ground I'm finding a lot of shared interest with Years on the occult, happy days, the more I read the deeper it gets. Bty, happy hottest summer on record/climate disaster from Europe! Ceoil (talk) 00:55, 6 August 2022 (UTC)

Don't worry, I've been keeping an eye out and I don't feel dragged in. But I do feel that there's a lot of reading that I've not gotten to and probably won't get to. Yes, it's a longer project than expected but worth getting it right and it's very definitely headed in that direction. I let myself get slightly sidetracked w/ Rilke but don't intend to be dug in there for long. Very hot & humid here - blech! Until this week, it's been unusually dry (and less humid) but today we had huge torrential rainfall - scary stuff. Happy you're enjoying a real summer. Hope all is well w/ everyone. Victoria (tk) 01:20, 6 August 2022 (UTC)

I only scanned the lead of Duino Elegies, but its far too excitably written and seems to be based on estatic readings. I might chip in here and there, especially as I see its a good bunch working on it. In other news, Liz is in the states with the last few months, and I'll be over for a month in a forthnight, and then she'll be back here for a few weeks. All good, long as I remember to wash, shave and put on smart clothes having spent the last weeks without a better half to tell me what's what. Men on their own degrate, am working from home, just been me and the cat from week to week; but seems we are reaching and end to this and almost have care arrangements where it could be 50/50 for Liz between IRL and the states. (ps I would live in the states but Liz is loves IRL). Hrmp. Ceoil (talk) 02:02, 6 August 2022 (UTC)

I don't know whether you remember Col. Henry, but well. I'd prefer to tag along on H.D. I think Rilke needs a lot of work, but if the crew is up to it I'm happy to point out what needs to be done. In other words I'm happy to be bossy but no heavy lifting :). I've tweaked H.d in a few places and left a snarky inline. Well, barely snarky - not at all Yoman level snark. Something I might achieve if I live long enough. Washing, wearing smart clothes, all that - seems to have diminished since Feb 2020 and working at home. Life has become very casual. If you're stateside Aug to Sept - nice time of year. Enjoy. Victoria (tk) 02:12, 6 August 2022 (UTC)

The hope is to return again in Sept and drive up to York, Main (yes I know Mass that time of year is wow) for an actual holiday. Heaven! Re working at home, I often scare Liz on zoom by not shaving for a few days and then shaving selectively, leaving only the 'tash "because I love Sparks (band) so much".[2] :). I miss Yoman in a lot of ways, and then think phew in others. Man could he appear out of nowhere, after years of silence, to fly (highly amusing) daggers, but then again, when I first joined this chain gang, he was the best there was, and I learned by trying to do what Yoman (and Giano, Geogre, Filiocht and Mongo) do. It didn't work out great, but, eh whatyagonnado. Anyway, time for me bed. Ceoil (talk) 02:33, 6 August 2022 (UTC)

PS I remember Col. Henry very well; a total -*f% and I thought scorched earth and build again was the policy here? Ceoil (talk) 02:38, 6 August 2022 (UTC)

Yes, exactly. That's what we should do. Tbh, I resent the time spent on it. I just took a look at the ban discussion to be sure I hadn't misremembered. I hadn't.

Maine during leaf season is great and York is - well one of my favorite places on the planet. I hope you get there. Sending good thoughts to you and Liz. Victoria (tk) 02:50, 6 August 2022 (UTC)

Southern Maine has the best Funerary art in Puritan New England and is always beyond a delight. PS would withdraw from Duino Elegies; that dude was making up page numbers and all sorts. You could get dragged in. Ceoil (talk) 02:57, 6 August 2022 (UTC)

I don't remember ColonelHenry; he was after I resigned, and while I was trying to not pay attention. What was the deal ? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 14:36, 6 August 2022 (UTC)

I can't figure out who he was during my tenure ??? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 14:51, 6 August 2022 (UTC)

Hi Sandy, I'm just refreshing my memory. The socks are listed in Category:Wikipedia sockpuppets of ColonelHenry. I believe the vanished user acct & ExploredCDT account (which might be the same acct) were the earlier accounts before the Col. Henry account/s. The ban discussion is here. It's worth skimming all the way down, past the portion that's archived in purple. I will be spending some time today putting together a comment for the Duino FAR. In the ban discussion, Risker made a good comment at 05:05, 22 April 2014 to do with accountability and scut work, that I agree with. (Since I pinged her, I'll let her know why). There's too much to do on this project; saving this article's star is beyond our remit in my view. Victoria (tk) 15:26, 6 August 2022 (UTC)

That's my view on the FAR, but what are we to do when someone attempts it :( :( Big Fat TimeSink. While important high view astronomy articles deserve the attention of those who have the time at FAR ... SandyGeorgia (Talk) 16:58, 6 August 2022 (UTC)

I posted a long comment, hopefully it makes some sort of sense. Risker has good advive too, so maybe the others can quickly be closed as a delist. I've spent a couple of days digging into it, which is a lot for me, since I get here so rarely. Still, I'll turn my energies back to looking over Ceoil's shoulder at H.D., which is a fascinating article, in my subject area, and coming along nicely. Victoria (tk) 19:53, 6 August 2022 (UTC)

I see now you made a shed load of improvements after I zoned out. A pleasure as always working with you. Ceoil (talk) 11:53, 6 August 2022 (UTC)

I made a few small tweaks, is all. No big deal. I did spend time thinking about Rilke and will take your advice when I get back here later today. Victoria (tk) 13:35, 6 August 2022 (UTC)

FAR - FAC

You kindly commented in a FAC, Ich will den Kreuzstab gerne tragen, BWV 56 back in 2018, - we are now in the next round, and I'd appreciate your input again, if you are inclined to look. - Thank you for helping with Rilke's poetry, much appreciated. -- Gerda Arendt (talk) 21:46, 5 August 2022 (UTC)

Hi, thanks for stopping by. I can't commit to anything these days, because I can never know if I'm able to be around to finish up something I start. And I've not reviewed in years. I do remember the article and remember being interested in in Blanken's research re Birkmann. I thought there was quite a lot of other interesting info in that pdf (which by the way is in English, not German as the cite indicates). For instance one of the interpretations of the cross is the Jacob's staff, see Blanken p. 27 (that is a lovely image btw!), so maybe the image of the cross can be fixed? As for the music, I'm clueless and not really able to comment except to say that I'm confused (completely tone deaf!).

Re Rilke, I'm not convinced the star can be saved there. I understand why you're doing it, but there's quite a bit of work to be done. Will post a review there when I can. Best, Victoria (tk) 23:16, 5 August 2022 (UTC)

Bach: I included a sentence more about Birkmann's scientific background, explaining his interest in the meaning of Kreuzstab as a measuring device - an extra meaning, not the only meaning. Please check if it needs better rewording. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 18:20, 21 August 2022 (UTC)

Hi Gerda Arendt I tried to look and found nothing. Can you give me a diff? Thanks, Victoria (tk) 19:28, 24 August 2022 (UTC)

last sentence , there were some changes to the section in previous edits. Sorry I thought it was obvious, and best wishes for your health, - much more important. - I just heard BWV 82 (mentioned in the recordings section) in concert: great experience! --Gerda Arendt (talk) 20:50, 24 August 2022 (UTC)

Thanks for the diff Gerda. I've not had a chance to read through yet, and wondered about the image File:Brooklyn Museum 1997.168.3 Cross and Staff (2).jpg which is a crop of File:Brooklyn Museum 1997.168.3 Cross and Staff.jpg which is a completely different thing than a Jacob's staff. It makes sense to me that if the lyrics refer to life as a journey, then one needs a navigational aid for the journey. In a sense the cross is a double metaphor: for navigation through life and for the cross one bears in one's lifetime, fwiw. I see you're keeping busy and traveling - I'm jealous! Victoria (tk) 23:13, 28 August 2022 (UTC)

Re-do the ping Gerda Arendt, thanks to handy-dandy ping sent notification tool in preferences. Victoria (tk) 23:18, 28 August 2022 (UTC)

thank you for thinking - I'm away without connection, perhaps until tomorrow. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 04:41, 29 August 2022 (UTC)

Back, I found the article promoted. - You are right, but I think that is expressed. In the opening line, the term has several meanings, not only one, as often in poetry. - Best wishes for your health! --Gerda Arendt (talk) 07:45, 1 September 2022 (UTC)

Vincent van Gogh

I'm sorry I created so much work for you. I thought all the sources used in the text had been related to in the References. My interpretation of Sources was that they should guide readers to usefull sources to study more concerning Van Gogh. Only after clicking on View history did I find out about my wrong interpretation. Again excuses.

Smi953 (talk) 07:37, 16 August 2022 (UTC)

COVID vaccine

Just following up on a comment you made, independent of the edit work. You mentioned you are getting the COVID vaccine. There's one aspect of this Wikipedia community that I've come to appreciate: For the amount going on in the non-Wikiworld, the amount of energy so many people, like you pour into it is amazing. It's good work! It's easy to forget that there's a balance though; particularly, for those of us whose interactions are within these pages. If you already got the vaccine, I hope you have a quick recovery. If you haven't, I hope it goes smoothly! Wtfiv (talk) 18:00, 21 August 2022 (UTC)

Thanks! I had to some real life obligations on Sunday, then a booster yesterday. Probably won't get back here for a few days. Victoria (tk) 22:33, 23 August 2022 (UTC)

Glad to "hear your voice"! Because of my allergies, I sob and tremble in fear before each vaccination. Bst, SandyGeorgia (Talk) 22:36, 23 August 2022 (UTC)

The 4th time and I hoped it wouldn't be bad but I had an immediate and severe reaction, tbh. Hubby's not doing great either. So I'm out for a bit. Re the FAR, you can move all my stuff to talk if you'd like. The website I think we might need to look at some point for reverse copyvio is this one. Thansk for stopping by! Victoria (tk) 22:39, 23 August 2022 (UTC)

I will look into the backwards copyvio as soon as I get a free moment, and also move your section to talk when not iPad editing. When you are up to it, let me know via email how it went. I had an appointment with allergist on the same day I got COVID, so was relieved they switch it to video, where the new doc told me that, just as I've had anaphylaxis with aspirin and bad reactions to other medications, any kind of alcohol is in the same syndrome or whatever it is, and he said I must be an acute tee-totaler now for life, or risk anaphylaxis again! No wine, beer, margarita ... nothing. Along with no NSAIDs, which make life interesting, along with several antibiotic issues, which makes it hard to treat any infection. And I now have an epipen. Scary stuff. I hope you didn't have an anaphylactic reaaction, and if you did, you'll need a few days to come down. Bst, SandyGeorgia (Talk) 22:50, 23 August 2022 (UTC)

I had anaphylactic the first time in the first 5 minutes. This time it got my kidney, so that was interesting, but it's a sick kidney so I guess makes some sorta sense. But that was unexepected and it's not pleasant. Will send you email when I can - am honestly wiped out after heating soup in a soucepan! Victoria (tk) 23:02, 23 August 2022 (UTC)

Take care there ... write only when you're able ... worried for you. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 23:04, 23 August 2022 (UTC)

Even the vaccinations come with so much risk, and like Sandy says, even the vaccinations are something have caution for, though they are better than the alternative. I only hope that the side effects will pass quickly. Though the extent to which I know you is very limited, I still found myself thinking about you and the vaccination. It does sound like the worst has passed. Wishing you the best as the recovery continues. Wtfiv (talk) 00:35, 24 August 2022 (UTC)

Are you feeling better? Wtfiv (talk) 00:56, 27 August 2022 (UTC)

Not really, but probably not to do with the booster. Will try to get to the FAR tomorrow. Apologies for the delay. Victoria (tk) 23:54, 27 August 2022 (UTC)

I didn't ask regarding to any delays. Joan has been been an adventure of months. Pretty much started right after we finished with James Joyce. It'll get done when it gets done. I was just asking about how you more generally, as I was thinking about you after you mentioned you were concerned. I was hoping it'd pass after a day or two, but it sounds like it is just lingering... Wtfiv (talk) 07:18, 28 August 2022 (UTC)

To be honest I'd prefer not to use this page for too much information, but basically I have underlying health issues and causality is always hard to determine. I might have felt terrible this week regardless. Anyway, I was feeling guilty about not being speedier, but Joan has come along nicely. As adventures go, its one you'll remember! It's definitely an impressive save and one that's worth the effort. Well done. Victoria (tk) 23:13, 28 August 2022 (UTC)

I understand! Wikiworld is a strange place in terms of the private/public divide. But since you mentioned what was going on with you in a post, I just wanted to check in... (I don't track other people's talk pages either, so I only check in when I remember or pinged) No need to have felt any guilt about speed. I've become resolved that I may have inadvertently formed a life-long relationship with Joan of Arc. I was just delighted to see you jump in. Particularly with your commitment to the images. (And thanks for working with me on that.) It gave me a chance to interact with you in Wikiworld again- something in the interaction during the Joyce article gave me a very positive sense of who you are! I hope to interact with you again on an article, depending how large the "semi" is in "semi-retired". Wtfiv (talk) 03:41, 30 August 2022 (UTC)

I had offered last November but I guess it got lost in the shuffle and then I got involved with J. K. Rowling. I also had put the FAR on watch, but it must have timed out and I didn't notice so I didn't realize it was still active. To be honest I really don't review any more because of chronic health issues (nothing to do with the section header here), which makes it difficult to be here through an entire review. Tonight I logged in because I'd received the notification for your message above and logged on to respond. The FAR was at the top of my watchlist so I peeked, and well, tonight you met the cranky version of myself :(. Sorry about that. Victoria (tk) 01:20, 1 September 2022 (UTC)

I was totally exhausted last night, so I think we're even on the cranky score! This isn't the place to talk about it, but I had mentioned to Sandy that am fascinated by your Wikipedia journey. I doubt there's ever going to be a biography, but the unfolding is fascinating. And I get curious how the depth (and struggles) of aging inform an the Wikipedia expertise you've develop. In a sense, how does the journey change us and what have we learned in terms of life? But that's fairly philosophical, and again...I am sorry that health makes editing more of a chore, but I have a hope that sometimes turning to editing- in measured doses- still provides a creative place where you know you are valued. Wtfiv (talk) 20:29, 2 September 2022 (UTC)

Well I'm yet not totally old and doddery! I've been a bit busy in real life, and have been quite happily less active in recent years. Do you mean specifically my Wikipedia journey or anyone's? In my experience things wax and wane. FAC and FAR reviews tend to heat up and personally I've never been crazy about the pressure of juggling real life with this place but I'm getting better at stepping away when I need to. Victoria (tk) 16:34, 3 September 2022 (UTC)

I told Wtfiv that revisiting my Wiki-history was not a pleasant experience; in fact, it's traumatic. To explain more.

When SlimVirgin and a cabal of "we admins" go after you from your earliest days, and then keep going after you (SV made sure I was hauled off to ArbCom to deal with a deranged now-community-banned editor, with whom SV sided just as a way of trying to get rid of me), one learns hard lessons the hard way (similar to what she did to Cla68). In its early days, certain very powerful cabals really could determine who got to write what where. That the arbs eventually caught up and put an end to some of this doesn't leave me feeling any less ickey over the long haul; had I not kept my head down and smiled through it, the "we admins" cabal (one of them desysopped after that), and bided my time, they would have succeeded in chasing me off way back in 2007. Keep your head down and be careful with whom you associate! Even with her passing, I can say that the shadow of what SV did to me never left, even though I remained, always, cordial towards her. Along with that, I'd say that my Wiki experience, including what was done to FAC, remains strongly colored by the power of a few specific sockmasters, and when I see (not one, but three of) them continually glorified today by one naive editor, it still gives me PTSD-y vibes. So I guess I would summarize it as I have survived, rather than thrived, on wikipedia because of the effects of socks, bad actors, and abusive admins.

Anyway, I digress.

Victoria, I started to work on it, but never figured out where the backwards copyvio was ... the page you mentioned had a gazillion subpages, and I couldn't find anything. I started at User:SandyGeorgia/sandbox5 but gave up; point me in the right direction and I'll try harder. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 17:25, 3 September 2022 (UTC)

To be honest, now that I'm here so much less often, have stopped writing content and for the most part stopped reviewing, I have fond memories for the days of yore. I've been fortunate to be involved in some really excellent collabs and I think that's where Wikipedia magic happens. Inevitably there's plenty of frustration and bickering along the way but the reward is that it all comes to fruition with an article that's just beautiful. We had a entire crew working on van Gogh for the final push - lots of fun. Lot's hair pulling out too, but mostly lots of fun. Victoria (tk) 23:13, 3 September 2022 (UTC)

I doubt there'd be a vehicle for sharing the "days of yore" with where things are now, but it'd be interesting to hear the tales. It's great that you can look back at what you've done and see the difference you've made. The Van Gogh article looks lovely. And with visual artists, those panels really carry the article. It "feels" Van Gogh! It must feel good every time you see it! Wtfiv (talk) 01:52, 4 September 2022 (UTC)

Butting in re VvG; the nominating crew was much helped by the reviewing crew. John started as a reviewer but, as he does, helped so much that he ended up as a nominator. And God bless Brian Boulton RIP, who I once had the honour of meeting; a true gentleman with forensic attention to detail. Ceoil (talk) 09:39, 4 September 2022 (UTC)

ps, Its was a year or two before your time Victoria, but I vividly remember the "we admins" incident. The chill effect back then was haunting, as there was literally then a cabal, and if you had a target on you back...god help. Ceoil (talk) 09:44, 4 September 2022 (UTC)

Yep. Wtfiv, the good tales are like Joan! We did so much more of that back in the early days of FAR, where we all pitched in to save a star and it felt like we were building rather than just dealing with trolls vandals and POV pushers. But with a website that always retains history, and where one often has to revisit FAC history via FARs, it's hard to escape the bad memories (Hilary Putnam, ugh) even when you've moved on. The really bad incident that happened to me revolved around two scorpions who edited creative psychopathy, and I ended up in that jar in the middle o them, just because I tried to help sort the mess. So then reading creative psychopathy at Joan brought that particular memory back. But the memories of the good ones also predominate ... the many saves and collaborations. Someday I may put together a list of the great greats! I guess the bottom line is that I am mostly defined on Wikipedia by the really bad things I survived, and that has left me with some empathy for new editors and underdogs. Congrats on one of the great great saves !!! SandyGeorgia (Talk) 14:00, 4 September 2022 (UTC)

Ugh, my turn to go down for the count. Something nasty that I chose not to have tested caught me on Friday, and decided to form a novel bacterial/viral cooperative with my body. I'm just bouncing out of it.

Ceoil, I liked your descripton of VvG. that's why I jumped into FAR, imagining it would be a collaborative process by the reviewing team, as opposed to the paradoxical king of the hill/Mother May I? feeling that FAC sometimes approaches. (And both Joyce and Joan did take on that collaboration...)

Sandy, Wikiscorpions sound really scary...(un)creative psychopathy? I had no idea this was a real wikitopic. How ironic. Both you and Victoria's memories give me some context. The idea of collaboration sounds great, but I forget that it also becomes a new dimension of enmeshment.

Victoria, I remember when I got started there was a slight tussle I walked into with an admin, but I wasn't the focus, thankfully. But it was intimidating. But being cornered by an admin. cabal. I think I'd have been gone.

I guess its fairly normal: our brains are made to remember the "danger" and the "good" tends to blur into some soft-focus continuum. Sandy, I really don't think you are defined by the negatives. (Part of you know this.) In the world of FAR, I think the Wikiworld recognizes your huge role. I think you are one of the reasons it works as well as it does.

And Victoria, for better or worse, I see you in the image and metaphor of the medieval minatures and manuscript illustrations. And in that is something that always shines forth.

Thanks for sharing a bit of your experiences, which go back decades! I may scrounge even further into the history....and stop chatting up Victoria's page! (And again, thanks for your patience in a number of respects, Victoria.) Wtfiv (talk) 22:18, 8 September 2022 (UTC)

Sandy, if book is ever to be written about wiki's evolution, there will be dedicated chapters on Geogre, Giano, and you. And maybe User:MONGO but for the better than the worst; the man is a terrific writer, and was impressed by his no noesence approach to conspiracy back during his arbcom case. I lurked and ip hopped for a long time before creating a userid, made the jump because the very many inspiring people here out weighed the vey many intimidating pps. Wtfiv, your on my list of +ves. Ceoil (talk) 13:08, 10 September 2022 (UTC)

Hi guys, today's the first time in days I've been able to check in. I'll be taking a medical/health break and will be out for a time (was in hospital mid-week) until I'm able to get back. Ceoil I'm sorry, won't be able to get to H.d. I feel I totally dropped the ball there, and feel guilty about that, but can't get to it. But with your and FFF's work it's coming along well. Wtfiv I owe you a gazillion replies and regret the terseness during those final days of Joan but knew things weren't going well for me and needed to wrap out. Will catch up when I get back here. I've intentionally kept Wikipedia off my phone so that when I shut down I can shut down all the way :). SandyGeorgia if I miss pings, this message is so you'll know why. Take care all and feel free to keep talking here. I'll catch up when I can. Victoria (tk) 14:40, 10 September 2022 (UTC)

Great to hear you are recovering Victoria. All is well on wiki here, and talk to you when we talk to you. Thanks so much for sorting out H.d., if it passes or fails its another of our collabs I'm proud of, and as if it needs to be said you certainly bring out the best of people...challenging, informed, but kind and rolls up the sleves. Ceoil (talk) 19:30, 10 September 2022 (UTC)

Just checked in, and saw the final posts. There is a certain warmth in reflection within these that I appreciate. I'll be glancing at the users Ceoil mentioned. And while I'm at it, thank you Ceoil for your compliment.

Victoria, I don't think there is anything in FAR world for us to catch up on. We are set for now if you are. You've been great. I just hope the time goes well with you, and when you come back its because the editing is fun, gives a sense of self-efficacy, and makes things pleasant in an intellectual kind of way. If it fails at any of that, it's not worth doing further. But as I told Sandy about her work, the work you have done- at least that which I know, which is minuscule- is now part of the architectonics of Wikipedia prose. I recognize the importance of keeping down stress to maintain one's physical well-being. Even if you are exhausted here, I hope it is an exhaustion of pride. And I am hoping you'll catch another wind (your fifteenth) and work on yet another project soon! Wtfiv (talk) 03:51, 29 September 2022 (UTC)

Thank you

October songs

... for the thorough review of Ich will den Kreuzstab gerne tragen, BWV 56 in its 2018 first attempt, and your helpful comments in 2022! -- Gerda Arendt (talk) 15:42, 23 October 2022 (UTC)

I didn't do much, but thanks for remembering the previous review. I see that it was TFA a few days ago - congrats, and well done. Victoria (tk) 20:06, 27 October 2022 (UTC)

I appreciate you looking, knowing that your time is limited and precious, and always learning. I am thinking about BWV 82, the companion piece, but it's history was different. I won't have time for it this year. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 17:30, 31 October 2022 (UTC)

Featured Article Save Award

On behalf of the FAR coordinators, thank you, Victoriaearle! Your work on H.D. has allowed the article to retain its featured status, recognizing it as one of the best articles on Wikipedia. I hereby award you this Featured Article Save Award, or FASA. You may display this FA star upon your userpage. Keep up the great work! Cheers, Nikkimaria (talk) 04:52, 26 November 2022 (UTC)

Thanks Nikki! Victoria (tk) 23:41, 28 November 2022 (UTC)

Congrats! Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 01:19, 30 November 2022 (UTC)

Thanks! Congrats to you too, User:Firefangledfeathers!! Your work there was impressive. Victoria (tk) 23:57, 30 November 2022 (UTC)

These days Victoria I see you as almost the invisible hand; you did so much before the heavy crew came in and sorted all the refs & formatting, filled in the gaps, and addressed the sexuality issues, but it was all based on your solid and foundational wheat from chaff edits months earlier. tbh, I think the article is an eg of a now FAC standard page that was whipped up from shaky foundations over six or odd months during a FAR process. Which is kinda cool and speaks well of all involved, but of course is not scalable.

PS Hope all is well. I'm in NE for the foreseeable, but working Irish hours...ie working 5 hours ahead and getting up at 4am every morning. But NE is great, and god bless Zoom so I'm always in contact with my Paddy minions and overlords; covid has had some, hard earned, blessings wrt tech advancement. Ceoil (talk) 00:42, 1 December 2022 (UTC)

Thanks for the nice words! Yes, I think you're right re H. D. I get down on myself for not being able to do anything these days, but it is what it is. If there isn't another turn for the worse, I might soon be able to be editing again, but have lots and lots of real life stuff to get caught up with.

Re remote work. It's been a boon in our family too. But the house is always full!

Hope all is well. Best wishes all around, to you and to KL. Victoria (tk) 03:05, 1 December 2022 (UTC)

Nice article

Hi! I just stumbled across Edmund Evans, which I thoroughly enjoyed reading. I see you are the primary contributor, so thanks for writing it. I learned a lot on a subject I knew nothing about, although it turned out I had unknowingly seen a couple of Evans' prints before. Happy editing! —Ganesha811 (talk) 01:57, 2 December 2022 (UTC)

Hi Ganesha811, thanks so much for stopping by and leaving such a nice note! I had a lot of help there - Johnbod helped with the details about the printing process and generally shepherded the work and Malleus/Eric Corbett helped considerably with the prose - so it was a group project. It's nice to know that it's held up for more than a decade. Best, Victoria (tk) 21:28, 3 December 2022 (UTC)

So how are you?

Wikipedia is a strange and public place, but I'd still like to ask what's going on. As I've said in the past, to the extent knowing one through their edits can meaningfully define any aspect of this: acquired a respect for you, your knowledge, and experience here, and I just hope you are doing well. I hope you there is some positive things common up for you in this holiday. Wtfiv (talk) 03:55, 16 December 2022 (UTC)

Thanks, that's nice. I just suddenly have a ton of doctor appointments. Something happened in September and the doctors have been a little slow on the uptake. I'm having a very quiet Christmas & New Year. I hope your holidays are nice! Victoria (tk) 04:09, 16 December 2022 (UTC)

P.s - I noticed the discussion re images at Joan of Arc. I'll keep an eye on it. I haven't decided whether or not I have much of an opinion. Victoria (tk) 04:16, 16 December 2022 (UTC)

RE: Joan! I knew you knew, I felt like your little edit let me know you were on it. For things like that, is someone is passionate I'm not sure how much I'll fight. I'm just not overly fond of the art, but as we both know taste varies.

My holidays have been a bit of a mess. Where I live got water damaged so, I've been trying to make things work in odd corners as it all gets repaired. I feel fortunate that its being taken care of, and that I may be able to have living space back by Dec 25.

It's always hard for me to imagine you having health issues. Your avatar for me is the Magdalen reading on your talk page. I think in terms of this world that is apt, but I hope in terms of that more 3D physicality, whatever has gotten you is something that is transient. My fingers are crossed! Wtfiv (talk) 05:35, 16 December 2022 (UTC)

I love the way Rogier van der Weyden plopped that figure down in a busy hall. She's quietly reading, yet obviously not alone, keeping her ears open, keeping space for herself yet surrounded by others. It's a good avatar. So sorry to hear about the water damage to your home. I suspect there's a story there. I hope you're doing fine and it's good to hear that you might have living space by the 25th. At my age the holidays are more about making them as stress-free as possible than any exciting stuff. Victoria (tk) 22:04, 16 December 2022 (UTC)

I get that! But as you can tell, I still hope that there is a bit of moderate fun on Wikipedia- relatively free of stress, so I'll see that van der Weyden in a talk somewhere. Be well, check in, and just let us know how it is going. Wtfiv (talk) 04:16, 17 December 2022 (UTC)

Merry Christmas!

A very happy Christmas and New Year to you!
Have a great Christmas, and may 2023 bring you joy, happiness – and no trolls, vandals or visits from Krampus! Cheers SchroCat (talk) 11:11, 22 December 2022 (UTC)

		Season's Greetings
		Wishing everybody a Happy Holiday Season, and all best wishes for the New Year! Adoration of the Magi by Luca Signorelli is my Wiki-Christmas card to all for this year. Johnbod (talk) 18:34, 22 December 2022 (UTC)

Another year gone

		Best wishes for the holidays
		Wishing you and yours the best over the holiday season, and here's hoping 2023 won't bring as much global trauma as 2020, the worse 2021 & fecking 2022! Ceoil (talk) 04:04, 23 December 2022 (UTC)

Happy Holidays

	Season's greetings!
	I hope this holiday season is safe, festive and fulfilling and filled with love and kindness, and that 2023 will be safe, healthy, successful and rewarding...keep hope alive....Modernist (talk) 19:08, 24 December 2022 (UTC)

Happy Kalends of January

		Happy New Year!
		Wishing you and yours a Happy New Year, from the horse and bishop person. May the year ahead be productive and distraction-free and may Janus light your way. Ealdgyth (talk) 14:10, 1 January 2023 (UTC)

• Thanks Ealdgyth! Best wishes for 2023 to you and yours (and your animals!). Victoria (tk) 21:39, 2 January 2023 (UTC)

New Vector

The new skin obvs greatly reduces the amount of screen space allowed for the article, and fixed width images are now creating massive test squash. Text squash on lower resolution monitors is coming up more and more frequent at FAC and more worryingly at FAR. However not freaking out as I think the poll at village pump is veering towards narrowing the borders between the side bar and the article by default (rather than the current op-in).

One good thing with the new look though, at least the mobile skin is not not now far worse than the desktop view :) Ceoil (talk) 02:50, 21 January 2023 (UTC)

I just switched over to check VvG and surprisingly am finding the editing experience easier. The other skins were causing headaches; this less so. Go figure. I might keep it after all. The image squash issues are problematic throughout the site, particulary for laptops, but I guess an excuse to revisit old articles and weed out dross? How are you doing, btw? Hope all is well with you and family. We are in the post-Christmas doldrums. Victoria (tk) 02:55, 21 January 2023 (UTC)

I freaked out about all the sandwich issues I thought the skin would create, and so far I haven't encountered any, after checking a few of the recent FAR saves. Can't say my testing was rigorous. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 02:57, 21 January 2023 (UTC)

With a few tweaks it might get there. I hit my watchlist and contribs several times per hopur when on line, and dont like that its now too clicks to to that. That's because I'm lazy, but on the good side, because you cant see those specific buttons always, it makes the site slightly less addictive - Rigger and you said a few times that the way to escape is to limit your watchlist - maybe the WMF have inadvertently liberated their free labour!

We are fine and heading back to Ireland, exhausted, next weekend, at least for a few weeks. Optimistic; Liz's father doing well, and it looks like she can now spend most of time at home. Ceoil (talk) 03:04, 21 January 2023 (UTC)

ps Firefangled, I'm on wait and see re heavily reconfiguring old articles of mine until it all pans out. Ceoil (talk) 03:08, 21 January 2023 (UTC)

Oh, that's excellent news! Yes, staying away from the watchlist is step one for addiction avoidance. Somehow I've learned to stay away enough now, that seeing my watchlist float by doesn't entice me to edit.

Firefangledfeathers, yeah I freaked out too. I'm seeing some problems but haven't checked much either. I'm wondering whether making the image default to 190px from 220px might fix some issues now that the text columns are smaller, but it seems like there are other issues they need to address. I can't figure out how to toggle from wide to narrow w/out scrolling all the way to the top, which isn't optimal. Will address the image problems slowly. Victoria (tk) 03:12, 21 January 2023 (UTC)

P.s I really really hate the lilac color in the watchlist. Enough to avoid it. Victoria (tk) 03:15, 21 January 2023 (UTC)

Thanks

...for your work on Sir Charles Asgil. Sorry Anne cannot or will not understand how to edit better. I intend to take a look at Asgil Affair when I have time and perform similar cleanup. Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs ^talk 18:24, 1 February 2023 (UTC)

Hi David, thanks for the note. It gave me the opportunity to give V22 a test drive - generally I like it, but it was buggy during that series of edits. I've been looking at Asgill Affair and thinking either redirect back to Sir Charles Asgill, stub down, or rewrite from scratch. There's a 2020 book by GW historian Peter Henriques that devotes an entire chapter to it. I downloaded the chapter last night from Project Muse, but haven't had time to read it. Happy to send it on to you if you'd like. Ron Chernow devotes two pages to it in his 2010 Washington bio, which I was able to view and capture. Those two sources are good and probably enough for what's needed. If we end up with a redirect, then I'd take another run through the Sir Charles Asgill article using only these sources. I may end up doing that anyway, but taking a break from it for a while and spending a bit of time reading the sources. Victoria (tk) 21:05, 1 February 2023 (UTC)

Starting from scratch might be a solid idea, but stripping out the cruft from the current article might give some insights into structure. I've got MUSE access through my institution, so that's no problem. I'll see about nabbing the Chernow book. Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs ^talk 21:46, 1 February 2023 (UTC)

Your point about structure is good; it's hard to tell until working through and working through is ... interesting. Thanks for taking it on. I definitely hit a wall. Victoria (tk) 22:34, 1 February 2023 (UTC)

Dealing with COI editors

I know from experience that dealing with COI editors can be exhausting. Please rest assured that it is obvious to others what claims being made against you in that noticeboard section are really about - a frustrated person lashing out. Illegitimi non carborundum. MrOllie (talk) 23:24, 2 February 2023 (UTC)

I deleted the edits I made at Sir Charles Asgill, 2nd Baronet, in this this edit. Ignore the previous edit; it went wonky. Still getting used to V22. Everything I fixed can be found in history and it's best that others deal with it. The PAs are getting to me, to be honest. Thanks for stopping by, though. Victoria (tk) 00:19, 3 February 2023 (UTC)

Thank you

	The you rock barnstar
	Thanks so much for the end-to-end copyedit on the Tomb of Philippe Pot article. Its always great to get a cold reader's view, and you did wonders with my paddy-eng that wont be forgotten. Ceoil (talk) 16:56, 18 February 2023 (UTC)

Thanks, that's not necessary but nice. I'm about to put the computer away for a bit, sit on my hands, bite my tongue, whatever, before I call out what to me comes across as a patronizing tone. Anyway, spelling and paddy-eng is what it is, not to be apologized for. It's not like I don't make a ton of editing mistakes too. And I'm 100% number dyslexic and totally tone deaf, so you've got a few abilties I haven't! I think the article is fine, but I know the subject area and am not afraid of making fixes. Victoria (tk) 17:15, 18 February 2023 (UTC)

Yes, well, English people have their tone. In other news the Madonna of the Dry Tree article is looking great. Nice work; its a pity its so understudied and there are not a lot of sources. Am reminded of The Glorification of the Virgin, but cannot find any source to explain or confirm. Ceoil (talk) 17:33, 18 February 2023 (UTC)

Dunno what to do about the Dry Tree. I had some small idea I might talk you into nominating for FAC with me as co-nom, but after seeing your tomb Fac am more than ever convinced to stay away from there for the same reasons I left, however many years ago. That said, since I've made copyedits to the tomb and am having issues seeing through the walls of text on the FAC have offered to help. If that's ok. If it's not, we can have a huge fight over there about it. Victoria (tk) 18:54, 18 February 2023 (UTC)

Ive been waiting for years for you to ask re the tree: its obviously a panel that haunts me. Would be honoured, but need a few weeks to run though prose. I'll cip away at a copy edit, then we can have a huge fight, take each other to AN/I, and whoever is leftover and not indeffed can nom. Deal? Ceoil (talk) 21:00, 18 February 2023 (UTC)

It's not ready yet, but it's getting there. The bigger issue is that I'm not ready to reengage at FAC, so let's chip away at it and see how it goes. Re the tomb; I guess I made things worse. I thought that issues that are taken care of should be struck, but I guess not? Anyway, huge apologies for sticking a toe in there - it seems to have made things worse. Victoria (tk) 21:35, 18 February 2023 (UTC)

Unfortunately for you, I have thicker skin than you, and you are now captured in a march towards FAC :) Haha, but yeah it does need a lot of work, and will chip away over the next few months. I do however think its a very worthwhile project: the painting is exceptional and you have done so much research. I would be very proud indeed to co-nom another collab. ps, I'm fine with not stiking, and said to PCN02WPS that his points were resolved by this diff range. So its all good. Ceoil (talk) 22:32, 18 February 2023 (UTC)

I've read of long lists of prose nitpicks but haven't really seen it until today. My vision isn't 100%, so it's a bit hard to navigate and I hadn't realized that I was putting the onus on the reviewer. When I was reviewing I was engaged and struck points so the nominator had a sense of progress but I suppose that's a commitment. It's certainly more than I'm able to do these days b/c I never know when I'll be here from day-to-day. Speaking of which, am about to bail out. Keeping the Dry Tree in our sights is a good goal. Thanks for the work on the Exeter. I have now figured out how to make that cropper thingie work, but still searching for a high rez image. But enough for me for today! Victoria (tk) 00:01, 19 February 2023 (UTC)

Me neither and I agree but worse things happen at sea, at least to me, and a lot. More importantly, its been about six years since I wanted to do serious work om the tree article; if its a collab you are interested in my arm is twisted, given how much you know about this period.

(cough cough and) .... if hear nothing in the next 10 minutes, will assume you are all in. Ceoil (talk) 00:36, 19 February 2023 (UTC)

Funny. I went out for a while, so I guess now I'm committed. As long as we keep in mind that real life has a habit of interrupting and keeping both of us away at times (me more than you). But yeah, I was kinda going in that direction & then took a detour via the Exeter. Victoria (tk) 21:33, 19 February 2023 (UTC)

Would be deeply honoured to collab on the dry tree with you. As said many times before, the painting is haunting, bewitching. Obvs the road will be hard, but such an uber gothic panel, we should go for it. Ceoil (talk) 02:31, 25 February 2023 (UTC)

I'll be mostly gone for the next week or so (possibly longer) but will pick it up when I get back. I think after reviewing the sources I'd decided to ignore the single long pdf re all the trees of the bible and follow what everyone else says. Which isn't much. It's skimpy on sources. Pol Pot seems to be moving along a quick pace! Good luck over there. Victoria (tk) 15:23, 25 February 2023 (UTC)

My feeling is that the Christus is a very impactful painting that is relatively light on iconography and thus under-studied. IOW it is what it is, and a short, no padding article is in stept with how it was intended - a very clever and somewhat disturbing visual treat to be enjoyed for shock, but not much thought about if you are the type of late Middle Ages noble who takes the religious meaning/stuff seriously. Ceoil (talk) 15:39, 25 February 2023 (UTC)

Was up late last night happily debating veganism with my sister in law after a night in the pub, so very groggy today and hence slow in responding to your FAC points. IOWs, not as young as i used to be ;) The suggestions were great, and plan is to put time in get sorted Tuesday night. Yours in pain and misery Ceoil (talk) 19:43, 5 March 2023 (UTC)

Sounds like you had a nice time. I haven't been feeling great myself, so still kinda sorta not here. Though I did answer a question re grammar on that FAC a few moments ago. If you can slip in something somewhere that the pleurants were the defining characteristics of the Burgundian tombs and that the early tombs had small removable pleurants in niches, that might be helpful. But I'm not really sure. It all makes sense to me. Dunno when I'll be back to editing more consistently. Victoria (tk) 20:31, 8 March 2023 (UTC)

These were all excellent suggestions, esp with regards the mourners sizes. Have been thinking for years of startifying Tomb Sculptures from the Court of Burgundy, but all the broad surveys are in French, and my French is not great. Anyways, after this experience, think Tandragee Idol is better suited to my current mood ;) Hope you are well and thanks again. Ceoil (talk) 23:08, 9 March 2023 (UTC)

That image gives a better sense of the smaller mourners in the earlier tomb. I was thinking we need an article for the tombs, but my French wouldn't be up to it either! Not even close. Pot's tomb is very dramatic and it drew attention. As well as can be. Victoria (tk) 00:58, 10 March 2023 (UTC)

Good to hear. Obvs your time here wax and wains :( but is always high quality; between bursts of high content additions you seem to be settling into a role of an insightful and trusted firefighter, able almost immediately grasp the brief and bring clam and a constructive, highly informed path forward to any situation. ok, need to sleep, but still. Ceoil (talk) 01:07, 10 March 2023 (UTC)

Yeah, wax & wane is about right. Very much in a wane period atm. Victoria (tk) 20:59, 19 March 2023 (UTC)

Your work

		Scholarly Barnstar
		We haven't had a chance to collaborate, but I wanted to say that several of the Northern Renaissance articles you had helped elevate to FA are easily among the most thorough and reliable free access materials on the topic available online. They're a great educational resource and I've used them in my own teaching. Ppt91talk 19:39, 4 March 2023 (UTC)

• Wow, thanks! As you've probably noticed most are collaborations with Ceoil and others. The few I've done on my own rarely make it through the FA process, i.e Memling's St John Altarpiece (Memling), but that was done in a classroom and we had lots of fun talking about "head-on-a-platter" motifs, among other things. Victoria (tk) 21:14, 4 March 2023 (UTC)

  I gave one to Ceoil shortly after posting yours! Hope we can work together on stuff in the future. Sending my best wishes. :) Ppt91^talk 21:41, 4 March 2023 (UTC)

  Oh good - he's done much more work in the area than I have. Best to you too. Victoria (tk) 22:21, 4 March 2023 (UTC)

  "he's done much more work in the area than I have" - nonsense but whatever. User:Ppt91 its really nice for you to think of us. Ceoil (talk) 19:45, 5 March 2023 (UTC)

April songs

my story today

just a little greeting, Victoria, and it fits here, - thank you for what you do, and we don't need competition ;) --Gerda Arendt (talk) 06:35, 10 April 2023 (UTC)

On an 'unknown' Hans Memling

Dear Victoriaearle I noticed your edits on the list of paintings by Hans Memling the 15th century Flemish painter. This is why I contact you, indeed I visited recently a small art museum in a French town and was completely gobsmacked finding myself face to face with an original Hans Memling painting (denoted as such by the museum) in a room among other much less interesting paintings. The painting is small about 35cm in a square (it was just on the wall, had no protection, I could have touched it). It depicts a Mass of St. Gregory the Great, of very much impressive quality and completely in the style of the master. I was so taken aback that I forgot to take a picture but I can get back to the museum for that. Now the list of works by Hans Memling does not include a mass of St. Gregory on wikipedia nor could I find much trace of it on the web. Do you have access to sources listing his works ? Can you check whether such a work is listed somewhere?!Iry-Hor (talk) 12:37, 22 May 2023 (UTC)

..15th century German painter... It is very likely to be on Joconde. It would of course help to know which town and which museum! Johnbod (talk) 14:26, 22 May 2023 (UTC)

Hi Iry-Hor, that's interesting and exciting! Yes, knowing the name of the town and art museum helps. From a quick cursory search I'm wondering if it's this triptych described here, or perhaps a separated panel from that triptych, based on the dimensions. Will keep digging. Tks JB for the link to Joconde; I didn't know about that. Helpful. Victoria (tk) 14:45, 22 May 2023 (UTC)

Well it does resemble the central part of the triptych you refer to but is not this one. The Christ figure is very much similar but the priest isn't the same and the rest is also different. I will go back and take a photograph. The Museum is the Musée des Beaux Arts, Calais see the museum website, the only place on the web where they mention what I saw is this website here where they just state that the museum holds a La messe de Saint-Grégoire by Hans Memling. I cannot find the piece on google image and the museum is rather small, mostly holding contemporary sculpture. I must say I am still a bit shaken by the unexpected beauty of the piece in an unexpected place.Iry-Hor (talk) 18:00, 22 May 2023 (UTC)

If you can get a picture and add to these in c:Category:Paintings of the Mass of Saint Gregory, that would be great! I've been down a few rabbit holes today but haven't been able to find mention of that specific painting except for the website you linked above. Memling copied his paintings and then tended to individualise for the specific donor, i.e the central panel of St John Altarpiece (Memling) is similar to the Mystic Marriage of St. Catherine (Memling). Then there's the interesting Pagagnotti Triptych which has its panels separated and in another museum from the central panel (which was in the same place for many centuries). The most in-depth Memling source is Dirk de Vos, g-books link, but it's not available for search or preview. If the painting hasn't been written about it's sometimes hard to find it in the literature, but I'll spend a bit more time on it tomorrow. It's interesting! Thanks for stopping by & lucky you for seeing such a nice painting during a museum visit! Victoria (tk) 21:50, 22 May 2023 (UTC)

I'm now interested in this topic. Anyway came across this description of the topic w/ pics from the Groeningemuseum. I wonder whether they'd know? Victoria (tk) 23:55, 22 May 2023 (UTC)

The Calais pic is here - I see he is only one of five possible painters given. I did Mass of Saint Gregory many years ago. Johnbod (talk) 01:14, 23 May 2023 (UTC)

Yes this is it, now I will come back to the museum to take a decent picture of it and post it on commons so it is at least available should it be discussed somewhere, possibly at least mentioned as tentatively attributed to him. In addition, Calais' museum is said to have held two further Memling, one of which went missing during the war but the other is purportedly still in the museum, possibly in the archives?, it is said to represent Jesus' presentation in the temple.Iry-Hor (talk) 06:22, 23 May 2023 (UTC)

Break

• 
  1. Met
• 
  2. Campin
• 
  3. Groningen
• 
  4. Cluny

This is above my pay grade, but the painting in the book above (plate on next page) was in the Exposition des primitifs flamands à Bruges and appears to be in the Met now, attributed to the Master of the Saint Catherine Legend.[3] And we have the image (above 1). The exhibition also had a version by or after Campin (now in Brussels, above 2). We also have an image of the Groningen one, and a similar triptych at Cluny.[4] See above, 3 and 4, which look to be influenced heavily by Campin (look at the arch, and Christ's legs). They seem a bit, well, primitive, for Memling. But they have the vision in a golden "speech bubble" like the one in Calais. Attribution is largely guesswork, isn't it. Theramin (talk) 23:11, 23 May 2023 (UTC)

Thanks Theramin! I was looking at these the other day - some are on Johnbod's Mass of Saint Gregory. I like the one in the Met, but I like some of the Master of the Saint Catherine Legend's work. Speech bubble is interesting. Thanks also to Johnbod for finding the Calais pic. That's quite different than the first one I linked above. Victoria (tk) 19:38, 24 May 2023 (UTC)

I think it is still interesting to get a proper wikicommons picture of the Calais one, right ? I will try to go back soon to get a picture and talk to the curator (also about the second painting of the presentation at the temple). Iry-Hor (talk) 18:19, 25 May 2023 (UTC)

Yes, if it's not too much trouble, it would be nice to get a picture on Commons. Keep me updated! Victoria (tk) 23:34, 26 May 2023 (UTC)

"Speech bubble" is probably the wrong word, Victoria - um, inset scene? (In the ones above, it could almost be that a reredos or retable has sprung to life.)

Yes, please do get an image if you can, Iry-Hor. Theramin (talk) 00:18, 28 May 2023 (UTC)

Break2

Theramin, Johnbod, Victoriaearle, here are some of the picture I took when back at the Museum (click on them, they are actually pretty large). I really apologize for the poor lightening, I could not use flashlight and the day light was poorly oriented with respect to the paintings (I have many alternative pictures, if you think quality is not sufficient enough I can upload others). I took several photos of details from the Mass of St Gregory (in real life you can see a lot on the painting, e.g. the city landscape visible at the centre of the painting through the Church doors; barely visible silver letters(?) on the top of the green velvet above the praying woman; amazing altar crucifixion picture and more). The painting is attributed to either Hans Memling or Gerard Horenbout at the Museum. I also took a picture of the "Presentation at the Temple", by Memling or Cornelis Engebrechtsz.. Finally, there was a very small painting by "Peter Neefs" although it was not clear if they meant Pieter Neefs the Elder or Hendrik van Steenwijk I or Hendrik van Steenwijk II (although I am not sure).

• 
  The Mass of St Gregory, Flemish Renaissance period, oil on wood, amazing details; I have alternative pics.
• 
  Mass of St Gregory, detail of Jesus and angels
• 
  Mass of St Gregory, detail of the altar. In real life details can be seen on the host (a T cross) and the alter cloth is inscribed with "C'ES" (beginning of "c'est" i.e. "it is" in French ?)
• 
  Mass of St Gregory, detail of the praying woman (a French queen/nobility depicted in a Marian way?)
• 
  Presentation at the temple
• 
  Inside of a Church, "Peter Neefs"

These photos probably need to be cropped/centered and/or the color balance could be adjusted. I am no expert on this really, I hope someone knowledgeable could improve the pictures.

These are fascinating Iry-Hor. Thanks for the images and for posting here. I've tried taking pictures in museum and haven't been all the successful myself, nor am I much good at readjusting the color balances. But they're here and when I get beyond a Wiki sabbatical might take a go at it. The attribution is really hard without sources, and Dirk De Vos is expert on Memling but I don't have access to any of his books. The Craquelure is interesting to see. I wonder whether Fram knows anything more about these? Victoria (tk) 23:10, 1 July 2023 (UTC)

I will try to see if I can make something with the picture to enhance them. Unfortunately it seems the painting is in need of restoration and I don't think one is coming any time soon. As I mentioned some of the details are disappearing, in particular the silver gothic lettering/textile ornament(?) on the top of the green velvet alcove and the urban landscape through the church door. This is also true of the faces of the people at the back of the attendance near the church door. About the de Vos ref, I can see around if I can locate it. Be it a Memling or an Horenbout, I still think this is a masterpiece. The impression of higher quality of this work is especially strong in real life and even more so when surrounded by lesser quality pieces (the museum has very good art, especially more recent one but to me this stands out).Iry-Hor (talk) 08:51, 3 July 2023 (UTC)

EDIT: The coat of arms of the lady says a lot, I am fairly sure it can be identified and the identity of the lady as well. The coat looks like Mary of Burgundy's coat of arms prior to 1477, at the time Memling was in Flanders while Horenbout, born in 1465 was too young to be the author. Mary died in 1482, one could possibly imagine the painting being made around the time of her death as well although her coat of arms then had changed quite a lot. But even in 1482 Horenbout would have been too young I believe to be the author. The museum description did not state who the painter is but writes "Gerard Horenbout (old attribution)" as if this attribution was not a current one. I think it rather that the author, if not Memling, ought to be someone of the second half of the 15th century rather than early 16th, notably the dress and headdress styles of the lady would have looked really old fashioned for the court of say Francis I of France (c. 1520).Iry-Hor (talk) 09:13, 3 July 2023 (UTC)

Great to have it. On the arms, it appears to be Burgundy (sinister, around the time of Philip the Good and Charles the Bold) impaled with Cleves-Mark (dexter: the escarbuncle of the Duchy of Cleves in the first and last quarters is quite distinctive, and the other quarters are the fess chequy of the County of Mark) . So might that be Anna of Burgundy (c.1435-1508), one of the many illegitimate children of Philip the not-so-Good (not to be confused with her relation Anne of Cleves (1515-1557), or with Anne of Burgundy (1404-1438), but why is our article at Anna van Bourgondië?) after she married Adolph of Cleves, Lord of Ravenstein (1425-1492); it was second marriages for each of them - an illegitimate daughter and a younger son. Perhaps the kneeling man behind her could be her husband? Theramin (talk) 00:54, 4 July 2023 (UTC)

Theramin Wow brilliant thanks ! You are quite right the coat of arms with the chequerboard I couldn't find whence it originated but you really nailed it, this is absolutely perfect. The arms of Adolph of Cleves, Lord of Ravenstein are absolutely recognisable now that you have identified them ! This implies the painting was made after 1470 and I guess probably prior to Anne's death in 1508, I wish we could be more specific. From what the wiki article says Anne lived in her palace in Bruges. Incidentally, Memling was precisely in Bruges at the time, until his death in 1494. Horenbout was in Ghent at the time, starting his career in 1487 but it took him until 1498 to get his first apprentice and he became court painter only in 1515. Joos van Cleve, also suggested as a possible author is even later: he started his training in 1505 and became independent in 1511. Finally, Master of Saint Giles was active in Paris c. 1500, hardly a good fit but who knows. Of course all of this is irrelevant since I am no expert.Iry-Hor (talk) 07:49, 4 July 2023 (UTC)

The style of the candles is exactly the same as on Adriaen Isenbrandt's mass of St. Gregory visible here:

Isenbrandt's St. Gregory

Isenbrandt established himself in Bruges in 1510, slightly too late but this might confirm the origin of the painting as Bruges, maybe some artist from the local guild of St Luke is the author, perhaps an apprentice in a workshop?Iry-Hor (talk) 09:34, 4 July 2023 (UTC)

Attributions to Adriaen Isenbrandt (and his workshop) are pretty notional, since no surviving work can clearly be attributed to him. The only large altarpiece to survive the Beeldenstorm of the 1560s was destroyed by bombing in 1942. Johnbod (talk) 12:24, 4 July 2023 (UTC)

So I have access to Alfred Michiels's book "Hans Memling" and there is no Mass of St Gregory in it (although the book does not claim to be a complete list of works, it looks like it). Whoever wants the book I can send you the pdf by the way. My best guess is that the Calais painting is a late 15th century piece made for Anne de Burgundy in Bruges by someone fron the painter's guild.Iry-Hor (talk) 12:37, 4 July 2023 (UTC)

Iry-Hor, here's a link to Dirk de Vos. It's very pricy and difficult to find in a library where I live. I might ask for the pdf of the Michiels but not at this moment. Also, well spotted with the similarity in the candle motif to Isenbrant. Yes, the woman's cloak struck me too.

Theramin, just wow! I didn't know about that woman at all (or her husband). Very intriguing. Here's a link to an interesting pdf on Jstor about Isenbrandt, JSTOR 42711486. He did do a Mass of St Gregory, but it's in the Prado. One thing to consider is that all of these painters had workshops often producing multiple panels based on the workshop master's original. So that's a possiblity too, maybe. Best thread ever to show up on my user page. Victoria (tk) 16:01, 4 July 2023 (UTC)

Adding: the angels make me think of Memling, i.e see File:Memling - Adoration of the Magi Triptych.jpg, the angels on the left panel wear different colored robes and have brightly colored wings; the bed with its bedsack also makes me think of Memling, i.e see the bed in the Annunciation (Memling). The rest makes me think of Isenbrandt. But as a whole its really hard to tell. Victoria (tk) 18:43, 4 July 2023 (UTC)

I think Isenbrandt is too late for the painting since Anne died in 1508 and he arrived in Bruges only in 1510. We could possible conjecture that the painting was made after 1492 because of the possible depiction of Anne's husband behind the veil, which may be a suggestion that he had already died by the time the painting had been done. As in a number of private portrait from the time period, the death of some of the depicted people are suggested indirectly (e.g. with the presence of extinguished candles on the side of the deceased in some of van Eyck portraits). That the painting was made on order of a wealthy person is manifest in the very peculiar spatial organisation of the painting: the sideways perspective with the pope and attendant all crowded up on the left hand side is unique in a Mass of St Gregory and seems to be made solely in order to free up space on the right hand side for the praying woman, as if she were present during that mass. To me this strongly suggests she commissioned the painting and indeed, it is known that Anne was (one of) the wealthiest patron of the arts in Bruges up unto 1505 or 1508. Now observe that Isenbrandt, whose candles and perspective on the mass are so similar, "quickly established an important workshop, probably in the Korte Vlaminckstraat in Bruges. This was close to the workshop of Gerard David, at the Vlamijncbrugghe and the former workshop of Hans Memling. Bruges, at that time, was one of the richest towns in Europe. Rich traders and merchants ordered diptychs and portraits for personal use. Isenbrandt painted mainly for private clients". Perhaps the painting was one of Memling's last few or one by David, and I would say it likely originates from one of their workshops in the last decade of the 15th century. It was made and composed in a style that was to directly influence Isenbrandt in his early career some 10 years later. Again I am wildly into original opinion here and do not claim to write anything in wikipedia on this but I would like to have the opinion of a real expert. Perhaps I could contact one?Iry-Hor (talk) 09:43, 6 July 2023 (UTC)

Yes, it's definitely a Donor portrait - there are some Memlings on that page. Most of the painters in Bruges during this period were producing for local wealthy buyers, though Memling has a reputation of going a bit farther afield and taking commissions from Italy (i.e the Pagagnotti Triptych). Off the top of my head, aside from de Vos, Till-Holger Borchert is doing quite a bit scholarship in the area and would be knowledgable if you're interested in contacting an expert. Victoria (tk) 20:42, 7 July 2023 (UTC)

Your thoughts

Hi Victoria, hope you're feeling better. I've been sick for a couple of years, but now on the right diet and medication and feeling much better, and I'm trying to figure out what to do with my new-found energy. The last time you and I spoke, I handled myself badly, and I regret that. I've been writing mostly about plants over at FLC, and if you'd like to collaborate, that would be great, or we could work on one of your projects. You and I have so many wiki-friends in common that I'd rather not have tension between us, if that's possible. - Dank (push to talk) 20:45, 14 June 2023 (UTC)

Hi Dank! Thanks for the note. I have no memory of you handeling yourself badly, but whatever it was I'm certain I was probably cranky and not handling myself well. These years'-long illnesses are difficult to deal with and these days I rarely post unless I'm feeling well - I happened to be lurking earlier today when Sandy pinged me about a source, so here I for a bit. Generally my policy now is to stay very very quiet unless I'm temporarily well enough to avoid crankiness. Thrilled to hear that you have energy - that's an excellent sign! I'm always happy to collaborate when I'm here but haven't created much in the way of content in quite some time. That said, I'll let you know when I'm around. Be well and thanks for stopping by. Victoria (tk) 21:11, 14 June 2023 (UTC)

Sure, please do let me know, and glad to see you're still in and out. - Dank (push to talk) 21:42, 14 June 2023 (UTC)

It's good to see you around, too, and I really appreciate that you stopped by - it's always nice to have visitors! Will definitely be in touch when/if I get more active again. Victoria (tk) 23:52, 14 June 2023 (UTC)

Peace be on you!

Hello Victoriaearle, Raydann has smiled at you! Smiles promote WikiLove and hopefully this one has made your day better. Spread the WikiLove by smiling at someone else, whether it be someone you have had disagreements with in the past or a good friend. Go on, smile! Cheers, and happy editing!
Smile at others by adding {{subst:Smile}} to their talk page with a friendly message.

Somewhere out there, you're in someone's thoughts and prayers. So smile your precious smile. ❯❯❯ Raydann^(Talk) 22:27, 3 July 2023 (UTC)

Admin help needed

Need an admin to undelete/restore User:Victoriaearle/Japanese art sandbox for me. Thanks! Victoria (tk) 14:33, 8 September 2023 (UTC)

 Done. I deleted the db template to make sure no one came right along after and redeleted lol... Valereee (talk) 15:09, 8 September 2023 (UTC)

Thanks Valereee! Good thinking re the tag. I forgot about that. Victoria (tk) 16:06, 8 September 2023 (UTC)

User:Victoriaearle/Japanese art sandbox

You're right, User:Victoriaearle/Japanese art sandbox is your page to do with as you please. I take pride in writing detailed edit summaries, and my edit summary was replace improper self-closed <p/> with <p>...</p>; rm spurious {{collapsebottom}}; rm stripped </s>. So, even if you have a reason to keep the stripped </s> tags, please be aware that <p/> is an improper self-closed tag; if you need a paragraph break, use <p>...</p>. Also; {{collapsebottom}} is spurious if it doesn't close {{collapsetop}}. Cheers! —Anomalocaris (talk) 21:22, 8 September 2023 (UTC)

Hi, the sandbox got undeleted only hours ago!! It's a little to early to be worrying about formatting issues on a 10 year old sandbox. Let me at least have a chance to look at it before chastising for improper use of code. If it's an issue, I've stopped what I was doing off-wiki, fixed the strikeouts, and copied it. Feel free to delete it if it's wrong. I refuse to spend my time discussing html tags in a sandbox that's been deleted for year. It's not fun. Victoria (tk) 21:32, 8 September 2023 (UTC)

Hi Victoria, My original edit was intended to be helpful. My comment here was intended to explain what I did and why. I am sorry if any of this has been stressful, as I am simply trying to help. Cheers! —Anomalocaris (talk) 23:38, 8 September 2023 (UTC)

Hi Anomalocaris, I understand and apologize for the crankiness. The strikes were there as a marker so I knew which notes went to the article & which not, so were helpful and to add the opening tags I needed to know where the closing tags were. But it's all fixed now and I realize it was a linter error. Again, apologies. Victoria (tk) 01:59, 10 September 2023 (UTC)

Crucifixion and Last Judgement diptych

September songs

my story today

Victoria, when I saw Crucifixion and Last Judgement diptych on the Main page today, I immediately thought of you, but the day was busy. Thank you for what put in the article, in great collaboration! Thank you also for what you added to Berit Lindholm, adding personal touch! Sadly, it was not considered for the DYK, - just some trivia. The last biography that I improved (because she died) was Margherita Rinaldi. -- Gerda Arendt (talk) 20:02, 14 September 2023 (UTC)

Hi Gerda, thanks for the message. Yes, the Crucifixion was moved to a title that's not the title for the main page appearance.

Re Berit - I'd hoped to see something like "dyk that Berit Lindholm's favorite audiences were in the Soviet Union where the stage was covered in "hundreds of tiny, tiny, bouquets"". (Sorry off the top of my head, so probably not completely accurate or well-worded). A hook like that tells me how much the performances were appreciated, and it tells me that audience members didn't have money for lavish bouquets - the Soviet Union in 1970s. The other fact I liked was that she walked along Stockholm's canals, covered in jewelry, muttering to herself, to prepare for Klytemnestra - and received looks from passersby. Another interesting fact was about her poor eyesight and not being able to see the stage blocking until contact lenses became widely availble; and another was that she attributed her large voice to a lack of early childhood training. I read Campbell and found it fascinating. But I'm largely not around and don't like to get involved in discussions b/c usually I'm not here to follow up. Anyway, I see that you are keeping busy. I'm a little envious. Victoria (tk) 23:36, 16 September 2023 (UTC)

Murasaki Shikibu scheduled for TFA

This is to let you know that the above article has been scheduled as today's featured article for 3 November 2023. Please check that the article needs no amendments. Feel free to amend the draft blurb, which can be found at Wikipedia:Today's featured article/November 3, 2023, or to make comments on other matters concerning the scheduling of this article at Wikipedia talk:Today's featured article/November 2023. I suggest that you watchlist Wikipedia:Main Page/Errors from the day before this appears on Main Page. Thanks and congratulations on your work. Gog the Mild (talk) 13:20, 30 September 2023 (UTC)

Thanks for the notification Gog the Mild. Victoria (tk) 01:03, 2 October 2023 (UTC)

De nada. Let me know if there are any hiccups or issues. Gog the Mild (talk) 02:10, 2 October 2023 (UTC)

November songs

my story today

Thank you today for the lovely 2011 article, introduced: "Over 2000 years ago in Heian era Japan a lady-in-waiting wrote a work of fiction that's survived as a world classic. This project would have been impossible without help ..."! - I guess 1000 years would be still impressive ;) - Yesterday's story was about a little peace song, also with admirable collaboration. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 09:03, 3 November 2023 (UTC)

Wow! Thanks for finding that mistake. Victoria (tk) 14:03, 4 November 2023 (UTC)