User talk:Selfstudier/Archive 3

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GASpin

In ${\mathcal {G}}(2,0)$, even multivectors are of form $x+Iy$ and odd multivectors are ordinary vectors. Noting that the pseudoscalar squares to $-1$, the even multivectors have the form of a complex number. Multiplication of a vector on the right by a complex number (in the sense of an Argand diagram), rotates and scales it.

This idea can be generalised and taken to higher dimensions using the rotations terminology already introduced to rotate a vector $v$ with a spinor $\psi$

$v(x+Iy)=vre^{I\theta }=(r^{1/2}e^{-I\theta /2})v(r^{1/2}e^{I\theta /2})=\psi v\psi ^{\dagger }$

The above identifies spinors with the even subalgebra (a subalgebra under the geometric product), in other words spinors are general combinations of the even elements of ${\mathcal {G}}(p,q)$, (Not dubious since no such claim has been made) yields the GA definition, a multivector $\psi$ in ${\mathcal {G}}(p,q)$ such that $\psi v\psi ^{\dagger }$ is in ${\mathcal {V}}(p,q)$ for all $v\in {\mathcal {V}}(p,q)$.{{sfn|Bromborsky|2014|p=28}

In physics, early encounters come as Pauli spinors, a column "vector" with 2 complex components acted on by Pauli matrices and later with 4 complex components and acted on by Dirac gamma matrices (relativistic quantum spin of spin 1/2 particles). An introductory GA treatment of how these formalisms translate in GA is given by Doran and Lasenby {{sfn|Dorst|Lasenby|2003|p=268-276}A GA derivation of the Lorentz transformation making use of this formalism is shown by Bromborsky.{{sfn|Bromborsky|2014|p=28-30}

Balfour reverting

Hello. I don't need to point out the editing restrictions on this topic, so I'd strongly suggest that now is the time to stop reverting. That is all. Thanks. -- zzuuzz ^(talk) 19:27, 4 November 2017 (UTC)

@Zzuuzz: The "first" reversion was not made by me. Should I file a report? Selfstudier (talk) 19:32, 4 November 2017 (UTC)

Frankly it doesn't matter who reverted first, and I guarantee a report would get you both blocked. -- zzuuzz ^(talk) 19:37, 4 November 2017 (UTC)

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1RR

You made two reverts in less than 24 hours to the Balfour Declaration article. Please self-revert or I will have to report you. No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 00:38, 11 April 2018 (UTC

Actually, your first revert was the removal of the NPOV tag, so the removal of the paragraph was your second revert. Please self-revert that as well. No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 00:42, 11 April 2018 (UTC)

No More Mr Nice Guy, you, yourself broke 1RR by reimplementing the NPOV tag twice within 24 hours...[1][2] TheGracefulSlick (talk) 03:25, 11 April 2018 (UTC)

That's gone now so it's irrelevant. I'm giving Selfstudier an opportunity so self-revert. I hope he takes. it. No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 05:01, 11 April 2018 (UTC)

I agree best for everyone to self revert here. No need to waste time at AE. Let’s just agree the drafting on talk. Onceinawhile (talk) 07:34, 11 April 2018 (UTC)

October 2018

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1RR

Please note that this revert violates the original authorship provision of WP:ARBPIA#General 1RR restriction - "If an edit is reverted by another editor, its original author may not restore it within 24 hours of the first revert made to their edit". Icewhiz (talk) 12:07, 9 October 2018 (UTC)

@Icewhiz: As I explained in the article talk page, your edit was a global undo of multiple edits made between 6 and 8 October with an explanation given "Not an improvement" applied to all, even though the edits were unrelated and included source reference additions and further without responding to the various comments relating to these edits that had been made on the article talk page. This seems to be unreasonable and is why I reverted the global edit with a request that the individual edits be addressed one by one rather than all at once. Selfstudier (talk) 12:50, 9 October 2018 (UTC)

I performed precisely one revert. Your edit is quite clearly in violation of the restriction above. Icewhiz (talk) 13:58, 9 October 2018 (UTC)

Copyright problem on End of the British Mandate for Palestine

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July 2019

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On 5 August 2019, Did you know was updated with a fact from the article Sharifian Solution, which you recently created, substantially expanded, or brought to good article status. The fact was ... that Lawrence of Arabia's plan to install the Sharif of Mecca's sons as rulers in what became modern Syria, Jordan, Iraq, and western Saudi Arabia was only partially successful? The nomination discussion and review may be seen at Template:Did you know nominations/Sharifian Solution. You are welcome to check how many page hits the article got while on the front page (here's how, Sharifian Solution), and it may be added to the statistics page if the total is over 5,000. Finally, if you know of an interesting fact from another recently created article, then please feel free to suggest it on the Did you know talk page.

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False edit summaries

your reverted with the edit summary of "This was discussed at length in talk, discuss it there again if you want to". You had first added the information to the article on 28 June 2019. The last talk page post, prior to me posting today, was from 12 April. Misrepresenting prior (non-existent) discussions is a pretty big deal.Icewhiz (talk) 19:34, 28 August 2019 (UTC)

@Icewhiz:My bad, I happened to be looking at the BDS page about this at the same time and confused myself. The reverted material is the exact same material that I edited into that article and the long discussion I mentioned is on the BDS talk page. I can copy it all over to the israeli settlement talk page if you like and we can go from there (ie my revert stands even if I gave the wrong reasons, I don't accept its undue and the fact that a money message might (or might not) be applied is irrelevant)Selfstudier (talk) 19:46, 28 August 2019 (UTC)

It may be DUE on the BDS page (as BDS is fairly new and has not accomplished much - a bill passing some legislation stages is perhaps noteworthy). DUEness on the settlement page is a quite few notches higher.Icewhiz (talk) 19:49, 28 August 2019 (UTC)

@Icewhiz:I self reverted and rereverted in order to apply a correct reason. So I'll go ahead and set up a new sec, copy over the BDS talk material and we can argue it there? No point in arguing it here.Selfstudier (talk) 19:54, 28 August 2019 (UTC)

No, this is a separate discussion. DUEness here has nothing to do with another much less notable article. Furthermore you should revert per WP:BRD until you do reach a consensus.Icewhiz (talk) 19:58, 28 August 2019 (UTC)

@Icewhiz: I have set up the revert correctly as you requested initially. You took the info out of the article to begin with and I reverted because I don't think your reasons for removing that material stack up and I am willing to have that discussion on the talk page there.Selfstudier (talk) 21:32, 28 August 2019 (UTC)

Please read WP:BRD - your addition was challenged, you need to step back and discuss.Icewhiz (talk) 04:11, 29 August 2019 (UTC)-

I assume you are trying to argue that your original removal of material is BOLD. Well, I don't agree that removing material is BOLD. If we were discussing a reversion of material that you had ADDED, then BRD MIGHT be applicable. You can't just go around deleting stuff you don't like and then argue that doing so is BOLD. As for discussing it, I am already doing that.Selfstudier (talk) 08:55, 29 August 2019 (UTC)

@Icewhiz: There is no point in having two separate discussions about the same thing so I have copied this material here into the Israeli settlement talk page and if you have more to say, then say it there.Selfstudier (talk) 08:57, 29 August 2019 (UTC)

RFC Irish Occupied Territories Bill

@Banana Republic:@Tradedia:@ZScarpia:@Onceinawhile:@Zero0000:There is an RFC running [here];if you have time, I would be grateful for comments.Thank you.Selfstudier (talk) 11:09, 19 September 2019 (UTC)

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Applicability of WP:ARBPIA to List of sovereign states and dependent territories in Asia‎

Please see this. I agree with you that WP:ARBPIA should apply to the article, but according to admins it doesn't. I don't think the template you added is going to help anyone if it's not going to be enforced. “WarKosign” 11:16, 10 November 2019 (UTC)

@WarKosign: Yes, I have been following the discussion here https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Palestine-Israel_articles_4/Proposed_decision I understand the business about enforcement, it is not that I necessarily expect enforcement, it is that the conversation, instead of being rational, is on the point of deteriorating into an Israel Palestine spat to no useful purpose.Selfstudier (talk) 11:26, 10 November 2019 (UTC)

Quit the charade that you are invoking WP:ARBPIA because the discussion has begun to "deteriorate." It started to go south the moment that you and another editor took the position that if the State of Palestine (which was unsuccessful in its attempt to be admittd as a UN member state and which is recognized by only 3 of the 15 countries with the highest GRP) was not classified as a generally recognized sovereign state) then the UN member State of Israel (but, curiously, not the (non-Jewish) Peoople's Republic of China) should be demoted to the limited-recognition classification.

And it is risible for you to claim that you do not "necessarily expect enforcement" of WP:ARBPIA when, a few minutes later, you cited WP:ARBPIA to threaten me with adminisrative actions if I reverted your POV edit that classified Palestine as a generally recognized sovereign state (against the longstanding consensus of which you have been made aware) in an article that did not even have the WP:ARBPIA tag: https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=List_of_countries_and_dependencies_by_area&oldid=prev&diff=925500776. You even had the audacity to leave a note in my Talk page threatening me with sanctions for supposed future violations of WP:ARBPIA when you did not "necessarily expect enforcement." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:AuH2ORepublican#ARBPIA_notice

I believe that what you meant is that you did not "necessarily expect enforcement" against editors who espouse the same pro-State of Palestine views as you, which is why you did not object to @Qqeeaa making edis and participating in the discussion despite having just recently signed up and thus being barred from engaging in the Arab-Israeli Conflict. Indeed, you claimed a "consensus" by counting Qqeeaa, yourself and another editor as 3 versus only myself on Palestine's and Israel's respective classification, which I guess meant that @WarKosign's opinion did not count.

For the umpteenth time, if you wish to change the consensus, don't threaten editors, don't illegally canvas like you did when you pinged one editor who expressed preference for a UN-based approach a year or two ago but not to ping the numerous editors who have participated in RfDs on this same subject during the past three months, don't abuse WP:BLD (as appears to be your custom) by making a Bold edit and then doing it again after being called on it on the Talk page (and then threatening sanctions on reverting your own unlawful edit), and don't use terrorist-style tactics like threatening to demote the State of Israel if you don't get your way. Start a RfD already, invite all interested editors to participate, and let the editing community decide. AuH2ORepublican (talk) 15:09, 10 November 2019 (UTC)

@AuH2ORepublican:I trust you are not expecting a reply to this tirade. I will say that the consensus appears to have changed by way of talk page discussion, your repeating over and over your (OR) position in the face of reasoned argument contradicting it doesn't help at all.Selfstudier (talk) 15:24, 10 November 2019 (UTC)

You don't have to reply, but you know full well that you have not achieved a consensus, and that the right approach when Talk page discussion does not achieve that is to start a RfD. AuH2ORepublican (talk) 15:27, 10 November 2019 (UTC)

@AuH2ORepublican: I initiated a discussion on the talk page because I perceived problems with the page and it is is clear from the discussions that other editors also see problems in the page even if there is not a consensus about how precisely to fix the problems. A normal procedure in such cases would be to begin editing the article in a constructive way to see whether or not consensus can be gained in that manner and only have recourse to an RFC in the event of continuing failure to achieve agreement. Of course, if you intend to insist only on your own preference regardless then yes, we will forced into the RFC procedure in which case please suggest an appropriate wording for such an RFC, it needs to address all the problems identified in a neutral way. I think, given the circumstances, it's quite hard to set up such an RFC at present, perhaps we could ask an independent administrator to help do it?Selfstudier (talk) 15:43, 10 November 2019 (UTC)

If you have desisted from wanting to demote the State of Israel (and the State of Israel alone) to the status of sovereign state with limited recognition, and wish to divide the categories based solely on UN status as per your recent edits, then it seens to me that your RfD is rather simple: "Should the grouping of sovereign states in the article be done by level of UN status instead of by level of international recognition?" The discussion would then center on whether the UN alone, and not the UN in combination with the individual sovereign states of the world, determine the recognition of sovereign states, and whether UN observer status by itself confers on states a level of recognition that, for example, makes the level of recognition for states with substantial, but not general, international recognition such as Palestine and Kosovo different in kind and not in degree. AuH2ORepublican (talk) 17:09, 10 November 2019 (UTC)

@AuH2ORepublican: It seems this discussion lacks purpose as someone else has decided to present an RFC, a rather messy RFC, but an RFC nonetheless.Selfstudier (talk) 17:38, 10 November 2019 (UTC)

As the above discussion shows, as does your edit summary here, List of countries and dependencies by area is subject to 1RR. This edit, coming less than half an hour after this one violates 1RR Please undo it. Here come the Suns (talk)

@Here come the Suns: Those are different pages, the IRR applies to each page so there is no violation.Selfstudier (talk) 05:30, 14 November 2019 (UTC)

@Selfstudier:, sorry, I had the wrong link, which I have now fixed. But you have also now alerted me to the fact that you also violated 1RR on List of countries and dependencies by population density, so revert yourself there, as well. 2 such violations in such a brief amount of time will not look good when it is reported. Here come the Suns (talk) 05:44, 14 November 2019 (UTC)

@Here come the Suns:As I just explained, there is no violation. This is what the notice says:

"Limit of one revert in 24 hours: All articles related to the Arab–Israeli conflict, reasonably construed, are under WP:1RR (one revert per editor per article per 24-hour period). When in doubt, assume it is related."

Selfstudier (talk) 05:50, 14 November 2019 (UTC)

@Selfstudier: Indeed, and you violated that restriction on two articles subject to it:

1st article: List of countries and dependencies by area

• first revert: [3] , at 2:53
• second revert [4], at 4:30.

Note that your own edit summary calls both edits "Undid revision...", and in the second one you acknowledge this article is subject to 1RR

2nd article: List of countries and dependencies by population density

• first revert: [5] , at 4:10
• second revert [6], 9 minutes later at 4:19.

Note that your own edit summary calls both edits "Undid revision...", and in the second one you acknowledge this article is subject to 1RR. Go and undo your edits now. Here come the Suns (talk) 06:06, 14 November 2019 (UTC)

@Here come the Suns:I have self reverted and will instead take this issue to dispute resolution.Selfstudier (talk) 06:30, 14 November 2019 (UTC)

SelfStudier, as you are well aware, the consensus on number-ranking only generally recognized sovereign states was achieved over many years in dozens of articles, not just in their Talk pages, but also in User Talk pages and in edit summaries whenever someone renumbered to give Taiwan, Palestine or Kosovo a number. It should be clear to you from your interaction with longtime editors of different articles that that is the established consensus. Of course you are welcome to obtain a new consensus that differs from it, but you can't do it through unilateral edits and threats of sanctions. Why don't you start a RfC for all articles that list countries and provide a numbered rank? Seems like that is a better forum than would be dispute resolution, since you currently are embroiled in discussions on the same issue with several other editors in several other articles that similarly list sovereign states and dependent territories. AuH2ORepublican (talk) 11:42, 14 November 2019 (UTC)

@AuH2ORepublican: Your assertions are false. As I have indicated on the talk pages of the aforementioned articles, it was yourself, who without consensus (that same consensus you keep insisting that everyone else except you should obtain) made edits overturning many years of prior consensus (from 2008 in the case of List of countries and dependencies by population density and from 2012 (October 2015 if counted from "split") in the case List of countries and dependencies by area and again from 2008 (November 2015 if counted from "split") on List of countries and dependencies by population. As noted on your talk page (where you have just now replied in the negative to my invitation to revert yourself), this matter will now be dealt with via dispute resolution.Selfstudier (talk) 12:16, 14 November 2019 (UTC)

OK, you do what you think you must do. But if you pursue a dispute resolution instead of a RfC, you at least should involve the various other editors with whom you are having the same argument as me in other, similar articles. AuH2ORepublican (talk) 12:35, 14 November 2019 (UTC)

SelfStudier, I suggest you refrain from overstating your "case" regarding the longevity of the "prior consensus" in these articles. It is correct that Palestine has been numbered in these articles from 2008/2012, but so has Pitcairn and every other entity. If you want to use such an argument, you will have to count from the time when the lists were "split" into numbered and non-numbered entities. For the List of countries and dependencies by population, that happened in this edit in November 2015. For the List of countries and dependencies by area, the split happened a couple of months earlier in this series of edits, but then Taiwan and Kosovo was numbered, Palestine not. That was changed to the opposite in October same year. Regarding the List of countries and dependencies by population density, it seems that it was not "split" until this series of edit on 5 March this year. Then Palestine was de-numbered less than two hours later.

Your argument about earlier consensus is, of course, valid as far as the population and area articles go, but please do not stretch the longevity too far. Regarding the density article, I do not think 111 minutes can be said to constitute a "long term consensus". Regards! --T*U (talk) 13:58, 14 November 2019 (UTC)

@TU-nor: Thank you for your advice, I will try to make sure not to overstate the case. The issue is not limited to content matters, which are really just a question of yes/no and straightforwardly resolvable in the right setting. I am more concerned about the evident pattern of behavior (there are other articles besides these three). I only got involved in this mess by accident a couple weeks ago, I have never even edited or been involved with any of these list articles, numbered or not, a learning experience I would say (and depressing at the same time to find that the Israel Palestine argument has even made it into Lists)Selfstudier (talk) 14:09, 14 November 2019 (UTC)

Oh yes, the Israel/Palestine question has definitely made its way to Lists a long time ago, more often than not by removing completely any Palestine entry (or in other cases, removing Israel, or even removing Palestine and renaming Israel to Palestine). So numbering or not numbering is really a rather small matter... --T*U (talk) 14:44, 14 November 2019 (UTC)

Talk page structure

Could you please restructure your answer so that it does not come partly inside my comment? --T*U (talk) 12:50, 16 November 2019 (UTC)

@TU-nor: Sure.Selfstudier (talk) 12:55, 16 November 2019 (UTC)

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Abdullah and Zionism moved to draftspace

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Notice of edit warring noticeboard discussion

Hello. This message is being sent to inform you that there is currently a discussion involving you at Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Edit warring regarding a possible violation of Wikipedia's policy on edit warring. Thank you. Wikieditor19920 (talk) 17:35, 8 February 2020 (UTC)

State of Palestine

You are repeatedly removing sourced and relevant information from the above article, namely, the fact that recognition is disputed between the UN and major-member states. You have suggested that such information is "POV." You also suggested it was unsourced, which is untrue. Please explain the policy basis you believe warrants removal of this material, as your comments on the article talk page do not make that clear. Wikieditor19920 (talk) 14:11, 10 February 2020 (UTC) Comments struck and editor advised to keep the discussion to the relevant page and to refrain from making false accusations on this page.Selfstudier (talk) 14:27, 10 February 2020 (UTC)

You are free to remove my comments from your talk page, but not strike them. This is a violation of WP:TPG. Wikieditor19920 (talk) 18:16, 30 April 2020 (UTC)

I am unstriking my comment and reforming it to the unaltered version. Strikings are considered a modification of a comment, because the only proper use of strikings are for banned users. Wikieditor19920 (talk) 18:17, 30 April 2020 (UTC)

Good, I was thinking of doing it myself, people should be able to judge you for themselves.Selfstudier (talk) 18:23, 30 April 2020 (UTC)

Occupation?

Can you help me understand why the Israeli occupation of the Golan is referred to as an “occupation” while the Jordanian annexation of the West Bank was not? Both (at the time of this writing) offered full citizenship, both faced limited recognition internationally, and both faced push back from their respective populations...Also i appreciated that article you advised me on regarding how the term “West Bank” refers to an area both larger and smaller than historic “Judea” and “Samaria”. Thankyou Zarcademan123456 (talk) 15:40, 4 March 2020 (UTC)

@Zarcademan123456: Annexation can follow occupation (example, Israeli annexation of E.Jerusalem). To be valid, annexation requires international recognition. The Israeli annex of East Jerusalem was accepted by no-one and the Jordanian annex of the West Bank only by a few countries. If an annexation is not recognized then the international community continues to regard the territory as being occupied. This is the case in East Jerusalem and in the case of Jordan, they renounced their rights (whatever they were) in favor of a future Palestinian state.Selfstudier (talk) 16:27, 4 March 2020 (UTC)

And the Israeli annexation of the Golan, recognized by the the US? It just seems arbitraty that the wiki page is called Jordanian “annexation” of Wedt Bank and that the annexation of the Golan is referred to as an “occupation”...any help in understanding this is appreciated Zarcademan123456 (talk) 18:10, 4 March 2020 (UTC)

@Zarcademan123456: The Israeli annexation of the Golan is not internationally recognized so it continues to be considered as occupied. The article Jordanian annexation of the West Bank could equally be called the Jordanian occupation of the West Bank. The article title is not really the deciding factor in these things, you should read the article, it refers to the Jordanian occupation in the very first line and goes on to explain that the annexation was not recognized.Selfstudier (talk) 18:19, 4 March 2020 (UTC)

Right..however the title (“lead” if you will) makes a big difference, no? Also the US recognized the annexation last year...shouldn’t the terms be uniform in light of similar circumstances? Zarcademan123456 (talk) 18:23, 4 March 2020 (UTC)

@Zarcademan123456: The title is not the lead, the lead is what follows the title. If you don't like a title you can propose a page move and see if you can get consensus for it (personally I would be happy with either title but I think after all this time people would object to changing it now). I don't know what "similar circumstances" means, the two cases are not at all like each other.Selfstudier (talk) 18:37, 4 March 2020 (UTC)

I respectfully disagree for the reasons cited above (both extend citizenship to those within the areas, both had limited international recognition (both even had recognition by a permanent member of the UN Security Council), both faced push back from segments of the respective populations of the areas)...would you mind directing me how to do that? I am new to Wikipedia, IDK how to propose a “page move”.

I also want to thank you for having an amicable disagreement...I now many people who refuse to engage with people with differing views, and the breakdown of civil discourse is noted (I think by the Greeks, although I am uncertain) as a harbinger of the breakdown of civil liberties. Anyhow, any direction you can give is appreciated. Thankyou Zarcademan123456 (talk) 18:57, 4 March 2020 (UTC)

@Zarcademan123456: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Requested_moves#Requesting_controversial_and_potentially_controversial_moves Follow this procedure. Before you commit to it, make sure you do a page preview to make sure everything is OK.Selfstudier (talk) 19:40, 4 March 2020 (UTC)

Thanks very much Zarcademan123456 (talk) 19:54, 4 March 2020 (UTC)

Improper removal of cleanup tags

First of all, do not ever tag me again. WP:DTTR. Second, familiarize yourself with the policies regarding WP:CLEANUPTAG. Just because you disagree with a tag does not mean you are entitled to immediately remove it. Your behavior here is disruptive, and I have had to report you for edit-warring over tags before. I really don't care to get into a long-back-and-forth with you over this. Recognize that disagreements over content are permitted and do not need to be immediately quashed because you don't see anything wrong. Wikieditor19920 (talk)

@Wikieditor19920:You said that last time I tagged you.I will tag you if circumstances require it, as they did in this case. It is standard procedure to do so, I even considered raising the warning to Level 3 since I tagged you at Level 2 last time. Your confrontational and disruptive editing style leaves a lot to be desired.Selfstudier (talk) 19:46, 22 March 2020 (UTC)

From WP:DTTR: [M]ost editors who have been around for a while are aware of these policies. If you believe that they have broken (or are about to breach) one, it is frequently the result of some disagreement over the interpretation of the policy, or temporarily heated tempers. In such situations, sticking to the "did you know we had a policy here" mentality tends to be counterproductive in resolving the issue, as it can be construed as being patronising and uncivil.

Here is the discussion where you violated 1RR trying to edit-war a tag out of an article.

Here is the relevant portion of the cleanup tag guidelines, which your conduct here disregarded:

Some tags, such as "POV", often merely indicate the existence of one editor's concern, without taking a stand whether the article complies with Wikipedia policies. It is important to remember that the POV dispute tag does not mean that an article actually violates NPOV. It simply means that there is a current discussion about whether the article complies with the neutral point of view policy. In any NPOV dispute, there will usually be some people who think the article complies with NPOV, and some who disagree. In general, you should not remove the POV dispute tag merely because you personally feel the article complies with NPOV. Rather, the tag should be removed only when there is a consensus among the editors that the NPOV disputes have indeed been resolved or—according to the rules for this specific template—when the discussion has stopped for a significant length of time.

You are accusing me of "confrontational and disruptive editing," yet you are completely silent on combative and argumentative posts directed at me by Nableezy when he agrees with you on content, you remove cleanup tags against without at least giving me the presumption of having a valid concern and discussing it with me civilly on the talk page, and you post condescending and disingenuous templates/notes on my talk page instead of engaging with me over the concerns I raised on the talk page. The fact that you immediately turn a content dispute into a criticism of me personally, which violates the tenet of WP:NPA which is to focus on content, not editors, and engage in behavior that is in of itself disruptive, is disappointing. The tag should not have been removed, especially considering there is an active discussion, and if you wanted to show good-faith, perhaps you should restore it and allow the discussion to continue/other editors to be notified via the cleanup tag. Wikieditor19920 (talk) 20:17, 22 March 2020 (UTC)

Noting here for future reference, warning + comments given to Wikieditor plus his reply, all now deleted from his talk page.

Quote

Your editing of Gaza War (2008–09) article Template:uw-disruptive2 + See the talk page for the article. This is not the first time I have had to post a notice of this type on your talk page. You appear to be developing a pattern, go to article, query the lead, make a big fuss and then when you don't get your way, throw a tag at the article without proper justification. I suggest you desist from this behavior. Thank you.Selfstudier (talk) 09:44, 22 March 2020 (UTC)

@Selfstudier: Do not ever tag me again. I am entitled to place cleanup tags where I have indicated precisely which views are not represented on the article mainpage, and they are both 1) reliably sourced (to the NYT) and 2) not entirely consistent with what's in the article. You should not be removing cleanup tags while refusing to address the issue. (We have had this issue before -- and it led to your being warned for edit-warring and asked to restore the tag.) See your talk page shortly. Wikieditor19920 (talk) 17:59, 22 March 2020 (UTC)

Unquote

You have now disruptively moved the tag, this time to the bottom of the page on a false basis. The relevant content is included in the lead and elsewhere in the article, not confined to a single section.

I'm really at a loss here. Your actions show zero respect for any other editors' views and that you would rather engage in edit-wars over a tag, which serves solely to notify editors of an active discussion. Your behavior on the talk page is confrontational and insulting. This can't be allowed to go on. I'm asking you, once, to restore the tag to its original position before this escalates. Stop the WP:BATTLEGROUND behavior and learn to collaborate on content. Wikieditor19920 (talk) 18:26, 23 March 2020 (UTC)

@Wikieditor19920: It is not at the bottom of the page, it is at the section following the lead about the ceasefire which is apparently what your complaint is about. And I have asked you in a new section at the talk page to specifically explain your complaint and what you expect to be done about it? I see you have responded but have still not answered either question. If you can spend all this time arguing about a tag then you can spend some time explaining what the problem is and what you expect to be done about it.Selfstudier (talk) 19:48, 23 March 2020 (UTC)

• Wikieditor19920, here is the first of four times you threatened me, and it was for the same reason: [7]. And here was the result:[8]. You need to stop tagging full articles when consensus is against you. The fact you don’t like something in an article is not a reason for tagging. Start an RfC if you wish. That’s the proper mechanism. O3000 (talk) 18:46, 23 March 2020 (UTC)

You are basically repeating a falsehood when you say that there is consensus at that page against my suggestion. For active commentary on either side of the issue, see comments by GreenC, Shrike. I don't see how any possible reading of that discussion "consensus against" the concerns I raised. An RfC is not the "proper mechanism": it is one available option for content proposals. Normal means of discussion are wholly appropriate, and the lack of an RfC does not justify your actions here. Neither of you have presented any evidence that the criteria for removal of the notice tag have been met other than you don't like how it looks on the page. This is utterly disruptive behavior and I've notified an admin about it.

Objective3000, You should stop following me from thread to thread, which you've periodically been doing for the past few weeks. Wikieditor19920 (talk) 21:24, 23 March 2020 (UTC)

I suggest you retract that. And, you have shown no reason for inclusion of the tag. O3000 (talk) 21:29, 23 March 2020 (UTC)

@Objective3000: The reason for the tag is the active discussion/dispute over content, which has not resolved. WP:CLEANUPTAG, WP:DETAG. Last time I will explain that on this page. Wikieditor19920 (talk) 21:45, 23 March 2020 (UTC)

Generally, we put tags in articles when there is no discussion and we wish to draw attention for that reason. If we put tags on controversial articles where there is active discussion, every article under DS would be permanently covered with tags. O3000 (talk) 21:50, 23 March 2020 (UTC)

I don't know who you mean by "we," because you are wrong as a matter of policy. Application of a tag requires ongoing discussion, and the purpose of the tag is to draw attention to that discussion. Just as removal requires consensus that the issue has been resolved. Which there is not. Stop trying to justify Selfstudier's disruptive removal, which you engaged in as well. Wikieditor19920 (talk) 22:23, 23 March 2020 (UTC)

Above discussion in which I did not actually (directly) participate mentions a report to an admin which I have located (it turns out to be an admin that made an intervention on the talk page of the relevant article) and will also file here (minus the pings) in case of need

Copy

User:Selfstudier's behavior at Talk:Gaza War (2008–09)

This user has, in addition to making repeatedly insulting and combative posts on the talk page, insisted on edit-warring over a tag applied to indicate an active an ongoing discussion about NPOV. This, along with bullying behavior from Nableezy, who have serially reverted all recent attempted changes to the this page, made any improvements to this article nigh impossible and discussion an absolute nightmare. Is there another solution here other than ANI? Wikieditor19920 (talk) 18:30, 23 March 2020 (UTC)

Well, it is Wikieditor19920 that has a habit of adding article-wide tags when discussions don't go their way.[9] [10] [11] in addition to the mentioned article. This is what happened the last time I saw them make such a complaint to an admin page: [12]. O3000 (talk) 19:40, 23 March 2020 (UTC)

There is an active discussion with an equal number of editors arguing both sides at the referenced page (about 3-3). The tag applied, NPOV, indicates this ongoing discussion, and serves to notify other editors of this discussion. There is currently no consensus that either criteria for removal has been met: 1) that the issue has been resolved or 2) there is no issue it at all. It is disruptive to repeatedly remove it absent 1) or 2), and counterproductive, since tags help bring additional opinions into the talk page. When Selfstudier was reverted on removal of the tag, he moved it to a limited section of the article when it clearly applies to the article broadly (The content under discussion is present in the lead and several sections of the article). What I ask here is that policy be followed and {{Selfstudier} do the right thing. Wikieditor19920 (talk) 20:16, 23 March 2020 (UTC)

Endcopy

Please see RFC

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Dura_al-Qar%27#RFC_4 Zarcademan123456 (talk) 22:11, 24 March 2020 (UTC)

I hope I did this right

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Israel_Palestine_Collaboration#/editor/0

I did RFC||Hist|rfcid=62DE2B3... please scroll to the bottom, why is what I added not showing up as RFC?? Zarcademan123456 (talk) 00:36, 27 March 2020 (UTC)

@Zarcademan123456: I don't know what that page is, you should use your own page or sandbox if you want to experiment. There is an rfcid there so it must have worked (unless you just copied an existing one, that won't work because the rfcid gets added automatically by a bot after you create the rfc). Oh wait, I see what happpened, you have made an RFC on my talk page, please don't do that again.Selfstudier (talk) 12:06, 27 March 2020 (UTC)

Second RfC on Gaza War

Please explain to me how Talk:Gaza_War_(2008–09)#RfC:_Breakdown_of_the_Ceasefire is different than the other, still-running RfC. It appears to me that there are two RfCs running about the exact same sentence. EvergreenFir (talk) 21:25, 27 March 2020 (UTC)

@EvergreenFir:The short answer to your enquiry is that the RFC's cover two completely different things as explained below but I rather think we first ought to go back to the beginning and see why these RFC's are running at all. I assume you are enquiring in an admin capacity rather than simply as an editor interested in the RFC's.

The ceasefire gets its first mention on March 2, following a series of edits by @Wikieditor19920: and their reversion by @Nableezy:, Wikieditor applied an NPOV tag ("...misleading presentation/ordering of events (e.g. violations of the ceasefire)...") and a failed verification tag whereupon followed a discussion of the latter in talk.

Then following more Wikieditor/Nableezy edits/reverts on 13 March, we move to March 14, easiest here is to read in talk the section started by Wikieditor which begins "I just removed a paragraph that sought to explain how Hamas was "careful to maintain the ceasefire." and is otherwise devoted to disputing scholarly sources about the events and the subsequent talk sections that are only about the issues being discussed here.

My first involvement in the discussion (argument might be a better description) was on March 16 when I added back Wikieditor material that had been removed by Nableezy. As you can see from the edit history Wikieditor did not even notice this taking of his side, so to speak, and I am afraid things went downhill from there. Your intervention of 22 March did not alleviate matters.

Wikieditor has only recently decided to take an interest in IP editing and has developed the habit over all of his interventions since of first making some number of contentious amendments to the leads (not the bodies) of various articles, then when reverted, making a big fuss about it and when he fails to get his way, throws tags of various sorts at the articles in question which is essentially the point we reached here prior to the creation of these RFC's.

The first RFC asks whether this edit in the section "Immediate repercussions" should remain in the article. This RFC was originally titled "RfC: Who is to blame?" and was changed on 25 March to "RfC: Ceasefire, military action, and subsequent Gaza War" by the RFC creator after I pointed out the obvious problems with the RFC presentation and then further changed by Wikieditor to RfC: Description of the ceasefire breakdown and then again to RfC: Description of the 2008 November ceasefire breakdown. Note that Wikieditor reapplied a tag immediately following that edit and then refused to say whether that edit dealt with his tag. If the RFC does not deal with the tag and no-one has actually attempted to remove or even edit the material subject of the RFC, then what is the purpose of the RFC?

The second RFC is not about the above edit but about an entire event and asks "Did the IDF 4 November cross border raid" (a different section in the article) lead to the breakdown of the ceasefire? A different question altogether. It needs to be asked because Wikieditor's intention appears to be to overturn the entire consensus not only of past and current editors but all relevant as well as scholarly sources. It attempts to deal with the tag placed on the article alleging it is not NPOV although the tagging editor, despite repeated requests, (for example), has yet to explain what exactly the problem(s) is(are) or what Wikieditor would like done about it(them).

I hope this answers your question.Selfstudier (talk) 12:28, 28 March 2020 (UTC)

@EvergreenFir: In actuality, there is no difference, except that Selfstudier's question is even more inappropriate because it bears on the truth of a matter ("Did X happen?"). This is a pointy RfC intended to disrupt the conversation further, which Selfstudier has been doing since his 1) endless complaints about the prior RfC, 2) removal of cleanup tags, and 3) constant posting of block quotes and refusing to adhere to the Discussion/Poll division. I am going to file an ANI report shortly unless this stops and Selfstudier shows some intent to reel it in. Wikieditor19920 (talk) 17:50, 28 March 2020 (UTC)

Your edits after I closed your out-of-order RfC here were pointy and inappropriate. Allow the other RfC to finish before altering material which are directly about the issue at hand (the ceasefire and its breakdown). You are aware of the discretionary sanctions on this topic, so you should be aware that editors should edit cautiously and prudently, not with pointy additions. EvergreenFir (talk) 19:01, 28 March 2020 (UTC)

There is currently a discussion at Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents regarding an issue with which you may have been involved. Enough. This has gone on for weeks. Wikieditor19920 (talk) 19:15, 28 March 2020 (UTC)

2020 coronavirus pandemic in Palestine

Hi Selfstudier,

Good job on updating the 2020 coronavirus pandemic in the State of Palestine. Just one suggestion, it may be a good idea to save the links for the articles to Internet Wayback Machine in order to prevent the loss of information should the urls become deadlinks. Let me know if I can help with that. Kind regards. Andykatib 02:21, April 5, 2020 (UTC)

Andykatib Thank you. I don't normally save cites to wayback, aren't there bots that do that automatically if a link becomes dead? Feel free to add things yourself, I only started keeping up the page because no-one else was doing it at the beginningSelfstudier (talk) 09:08, 5 April 2020 (UTC).

Thanks for getting back in touch. I'm not sure if there are bots that do it on Wikipedia. Will be happy to help later in the coming week while making the best of the lockdown. Andykatib 09:11, 5 April 2020 (UTC)

My compliments

I want to commend you on the neutrality of the Rfc you opened. I know that I wouldn't have been able to write the issue in such a neutral way. Debresser (talk) 14:22, 14 April 2020 (UTC)

Do not touch other people's posts

Welcome to Wikipedia. Everyone is welcome to contribute constructively to the encyclopedia. However, discussion pages are meant to be a record of a discussion; deleting or editing legitimate comments is considered bad practice, even if you meant well. Even making spelling and grammatical corrections in others' comments is generally frowned upon, as it tends to irritate the users whose comments you are correcting. Take a look at the welcome page to learn more about contributing to this encyclopedia. Thank you. Debresser (talk) 15:40, 14 April 2020 (UTC)

You now did it again. Changing comments is a big violation and I suggest you stop. Having threaded discussions in an RFC is allowed. I'm not sure where you got that you can't have a sub-section in an RFC from but you most certainly can. But what you can't do is change people's comments and !votes. Sir Joseph ^(talk) 15:42, 14 April 2020 (UTC)

Note to self: pre & jack & Rel false & triple

Silwan

Selfstudier, you write that the Jordanian era was not an occupation...

Yet here https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Huldra#Jordanian_“occupation”_then_“rule” you note it was one...just wondering why you hanged to rule Zarcademan123456 (talk) 05:00, 25 April 2020 (UTC)

@Zarcademan123456: We already had this discussion on your RFC at Jordanian annexation of the West Bank, my position is explained there.Selfstudier (talk) 09:11, 25 April 2020 (UTC)

Rfc

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Israel_Palestine_Collaboration#RFC%3A_West_Bank_village_articles

I’m just curious how long do RFC talk to resolve usually by the way? Zarcademan123456 (talk) 00:06, 29 April 2020 (UTC)~

@Zarcademna123456: They are guaranteed to last at least a month, I think. Sometimes there is a backlog of them waiting to be closed. If everyone gets impatient, there is a procedure for asking it to be closed (but using it might result in you waiting even longer, lol)Selfstudier (talk) 09:57, 29 April 2020 (UTC)

" See Wikipedia:Requests_for_comment#Duration. As soon as there is consensus (or it become clear that consensus will not be reached) any admin may close the Rfc. 30 days is only when the bot comes along and removes the Rfc template. If there is no discussion, and you think there is consensus, you can ask for an admin to close the Rfc. Debresser (talk) 20:46, 29 April 2020 (UTC)

I mean do y’all think that:

“[insert village name] came under Jordanian rule following the 1948-1949 Arab-Israel War and was later, in a move not widely recognized internationally, annexed by Jordan in 1950.“

Gained consensus? I may be mistaken but I thought there was at least a weak consensus Zarcademan123456 (talk) 23:09, 29 April 2020 (UTC)

I thought there was as well but I would rather not jump the gun, just ask for it to be closed if you are in a hurry.Selfstudier (talk) 09:35, 30 April 2020 (UTC)

Ty for advice Zarcademan123456 (talk) 16:37, 30 April 2020 (UTC)

Don't worry about areas I choose to edit

When I pose a legitimate question to another editor, that is not an invitation for you to become involved. You suggested I acted as a "public defender" by agreeing with another editor's changes to an article, which sounds like a personal attack, yet you seem unable to extract yourself from a thread where your commentary is unwanted. You made another one with this remark. I'm not looking for your negative commentary or sarcastic assessments about which areas I choose to edit. I see none of the issues I raised at WP:ANI seem to have resonated. Wikieditor19920 (talk) 18:22, 30 April 2020 (UTC)

Your repetitive nonsense is of no interest to me, go away.Selfstudier (talk) 18:24, 30 April 2020 (UTC)

[Note to self, this refers to unproductive discussion at user Huldra talk page initiated by this editor for reasons that are unclear]Selfstudier (talk) 19:05, 30 April 2020 (UTC)

Whether or not you are able to follow discussions is none of my concern. Do not involve yourself in my questions to other editors, do not reply to my comments, and do not post on my talk page again or I will request a formal interaction ban. Wikieditor19920 (talk) 17:26, 1 May 2020 (UTC)

Sigh. Get a life.Selfstudier (talk) 17:53, 1 May 2020 (UTC)

“If it was annexed, then it was not occupied (ie civilian not military rule)”

Not sound logic, for example Israeli annexation of Golan and “east” Jerusalem Zarcademan123456 (talk) 02:36, 3 May 2020 (UTC)

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Selfstudier#Occupation%3F Zarcademan123456 (talk) 02:44, 3 May 2020 (UTC)

Nothing wrong with my logic, I have known where you are going with this for a long time now. Good luck defending the indefensible.Selfstudier (talk) 08:59, 3 May 2020 (UTC)

What is the indefensible? Regarding “occupation” depends on physical or governance sense...

Regardless you did not answer my question.., Zarcademan123456 (talk) 22:40, 3 May 2020 (UTC)

West Bank editing

Since West Bank is not available for editing because of vandalising, and you've edited it several times lately, I said maybe you're the right person to refer to. I'd aprecciate if if you check out the talk page at West Bank, specifically "Replacing or adding new imagery where needed?", and tell me.what you think, It'd be awesome. And you'd also be helping some of my work get through. I'll be contacting some other editors of the article also for a broader opinion. SoWhAt249 (talk) 21:47, 23 May 2020 (UTC)

Wilson's Arch (Jerusalem)‎‎

What you just added is the same as what I added two hours earlier. Also, I think that journal names belong in the citation and not in the text. Cheers. Zero^talk 12:34, 4 June 2020 (UTC)

@Zero0000:I was working on that for a while, ha ha. I'll take it back out.Selfstudier (talk) 12:36, 4 June 2020 (UTC)

State Lands

chapter 1 of this book is very relevant. Onceinawhile (talk) 20:32, 5 June 2020 (UTC)

Your latest edit

Just report the new editor on the COIN and be done with it. Idan (talk) 15:07, 14 June 2020 (UTC)

Broken 1RR

Hi you broken 1RR Please self revert [13],[14]--Shrike (talk)

@Shrike: The latest edit is not a revert, it is as the edit summary says, removal of an easter egg in line with the result of an RFC and removal of consequent redundancy (ie the same thing would be there twice) following that removal. If you think I broke 1R you know what to do.Selfstudier (talk) 14:10, 30 June 2020 (UTC)

Selfstudier, [15] Shrike (talk) 14:34, 30 June 2020 (UTC)

AE result

I have closed the report with a logged warning to you. Hope it proves a worthy lesson. Good luck with your future edits. El_C 23:40, 1 July 2020 (UTC)

Mandate for Palestine/Mandatory Palestine

Thank you for your comment. My intention was to highlight the rising tensions between these two nationalist groups, Arabs and Jews, in order for the reader to more fully understand the historical background. I have linked 'two nationalist movements' in the lead of Mandatory Palestine to Mandate for Palestine to make it easier for the reader to gain a better, and more accurate, contextual understanding. As you point out, 'Mandate for Palestine' has been tagged as a 'good' article. American In Brazil (talk) 19:16, 25 July 2020 (UTC)

EJHN

The EJHN is on the front page today. Nothing to do with our conversation a few months ago, just a coincidence. It is with thanks to Cwmhiraeth here. Onceinawhile (talk) 07:42, 5 August 2020 (UTC)

Official warning

Please note the edit warring warning at User_talk:Huldra#Respectful_call_to_desist_from_protracted_edit_warring. Debresser (talk) 15:00, 11 August 2020 (UTC)

@Debresser: Note that your POV edit on Gush has now been reverted by 3 separate editors, it is you who will be reported, not I. You have no consensus. So quit with the nonsense, if you think you have a case to break prior consensus, make it on the talk page, ONUS requires it.Selfstudier (talk) 15:55, 11 August 2020 (UTC)

There are two editors who oppose the change you and your friends are trying to impose. 2:3 is not consensus, and you can not change the consensus version based on it. Sorry. Debresser (talk) 13:55, 12 August 2020 (UTC)

Quo loses to Onus if there is a prior consensus. End of.Selfstudier (talk) 16:37, 12 August 2020 (UTC)

WP:ANI

Please see Wikipedia:Administrators'_noticeboard/Incidents#Pro-Palestinian_editors_editing_in_consort_to_push_POV. Debresser (talk) 22:35, 12 August 2020 (UTC)

FT

Thanks for this, which I hadn't seen. It just goes to show the impact of appointing an editor of a major Western newspaper with a real knowledge of the Middle East. Well done Roula Khalaf. Onceinawhile (talk) 16:29, 17 August 2020 (UTC)

Mandatory Palestine

Not saying you're wrong, although there are 4-5 separate instances on the page where 1920 is referenced, e.g., in the table at right, also where "first commissioner" is dated, etc. Just saying that a total revert wasn't needed to fix whatever inaccuracy about the date you think I introduced. If you can shed light on when the Mandate was officially in force I think that would improve the introduction.

Cheers,

Kaisershatner (talk) 19:49, 11 September 2020 (UTC)

@Kaisershatner: 29 September 1923, as is explained in gruesome detail in the Mandate for Palestine article. I had no problem with what the article said before your edit and thus the revert but I will leave you to decide how you would like to see that date reflected in the article. It's a good idea to be quite careful when making amendments to Israel Palestine articles, there are many minefields and many watchers. Salud.Selfstudier (talk) 21:46, 11 September 2020 (UTC)

Response to your message to Spotty's Friend on 15 September, 2020

Dear Selfstudier, your rather curt message to me just makes no sense. Most of my edit was regarding non-controversial entities: Puerto Rico, Macau, Albania, Cuba, Tajikistan, and Uruguay. Even regarding Kosovo there's little dispute. I understand you've been having a rather heated disagreement with respect to Palestine/West Bank-Gaza with other editors, but the situation was that one column (World Bank) gave a rank to West Bank + Gaza but the other two columns (IMF and UN) did not, meanwile no rank was given to Albania; this is rather bonkers. I think regardless of whether there's consensus on the status of West Bank + Gaza with regard to the List of nominal GDP, at the very least the three exisiting columns should treat all eneities the same. If you feel strongly that the existing Wrold Bank column should contiue to assign West Bank + Gaza a number rank (while the other two columns do not) you'd get no argument from me, but you should leave all the other state entities' ranks (or non-ranks) as is; in other words, Albania, Cuba, Tajikistan, and Uruguay should have number ranks while Puerto Rico, Macau, and Kosovo should not.

cheers, Spotty's Friend (talk) 04:04, 15 September 2020 (UTC)

@Spotty's Friend: My particular interest is West Bank Gaza (Palestine). You said that you agreed with my position so I would prefer it if you would return the numbering there, it's not a question if I feel strongly about it, it is WP consensus, see eg List of countries and dependencies by population where Palestine is numbered and correctly treated in accordance with the existing WP consensus that Palestine is a sovereign state (it's also in List of Sovereign states. The problem with this particular page and a few others is that one editor is determined to try and impose his view that Palestine is not a state and without getting a consensus for his position and you appear to have taken the same position whether you intended to or not.Selfstudier (talk) 09:08, 25 July 2020 (UTC)

Restoring Status Quo

To save you the trouble and since you are in agreement, I have restored the status quo re West Bank Gaza/Palestine. Selfstudier (talk) 10:15, 17 September 2020 (UTC)

Agreed

Dear Selfstudier, I completely agree with what you did on 17 September, 2020 and thanks for going ahead and doing the needed edits (sorry for the delayed response but I've been away from Wikipedia for more than a week.) My concern when I made the original edit in question was to address the relative status of Albania, Cuba, Tajikistan, and Uruguay in the World Bank column. And no, I didn't read the Talk page and the attendant long discussions on Palestine before I edited with the intent to harnomize all three columns (personally, I'd prefer Palestine also be ranked in the IMF and UN columns, but I guess that's not the status quo.)

As an aside, regarding your 2010 edits on the EM field equations at the beginning of the cuurent Talk page, it would seem your first eexpression involving the fields and sources would look simpler visually if you start by using index notation for everything (instead of separating out the time-component and the 3-d vectors); the field equations then just fall out as the result of a component reorganization and equating like quatnities.

Cheers, Spotty's Friend (talk) 18:39, 20 September 2020 (UTC)

Reverting edits

While reverting a particular edit, don't revert everything they did. Your revert undid my correction of Ishmael's name. He is never called "Ishamel" by anyone as the article called him. Look at and edit first to make sure nothing else will be reverted. LéKashmiriSocialiste (talk) 16:02, 25 September 2020 (UTC)

@LéKashmiriSocialiste: You should not have reverted a properly applied tag without discussion so that's down to you. I suggest you separate such edits in future. Also your latest edits have messed up the references because you deleted sources without checking whether they were used elsewhere.Selfstudier (talk) 16:30, 25 September 2020 (UTC)

Uh first primary sources can be used, it's not a great deal. Secondly, whatever your reason, nothing justifies reverting other edits of an editor. You are showing battleground mentality, whereas someone cooperative will simply say they made a mistake in not checking. If you're undoing edits without even looking at them, then that's wrong. Another ediutor shouldn't spend tine on article because you won't check. LéKashmiriSocialiste (talk) 16:41, 25 September 2020 (UTC)

@LéKashmiriSocialiste: You reverted me, deleting a properly applied tag, not the other way around. Read what policy says about tags. I have been editing on here for 11 years and have 8000 + edits to my name so having looked at your record (as well as 2 blocks already) I don't think I need to answer to you. So go away bother someone else. Selfstudier (talk) 16:49, 25 September 2020 (UTC)

Removing an edit without cause is wrong no matter what. You could have easily replaced the sources yourselves if you tried. And our preference here is reliable sources. And my block was first due to my bad behaviour which I accepted. The other was simply due to me reverting twice, even though I had stopped reverting a day before the block. That I have no regret over nor it was my fault, but an admin overshooting his authority and being abusive. Regardless that as an excuse can't work here. Because in this case it's you not willing to make any effort at all. You are showing battleground mentality. Don't answer me. But others are not supposed to do your work or make efforts you won't. Check a person's edit before reverting. LéKashmiriSocialiste (talk) 17:12, 25 September 2020 (UTC)

@LéKashmiriSocialiste: The guy in jail always claims innocence. To repeat myself, go bother someone else. I will fix the references that you messed up on that article.Selfstudier (talk) 17:19, 25 September 2020 (UTC)

I didn't always claim innocence. And as I earlier said make the effort yourself. If you do it again, then you are bound to get reverted whether you like it or not. Don't expect others to do what you won't. And stop tagging me before saying go bother someone else. LéKashmiriSocialiste (talk) 17:24, 25 September 2020 (UTC)

@LéKashmiriSocialiste: Third time of asking, go away or I will report you for harassment. This is my talk page, not yours.Selfstudier (talk) 17:28, 25 September 2020 (UTC)

Code breaking

I restrict that to my Saturday Codeword puzzle. I would appreciate it if you could enlighten me about where I broke up wiki code at Hamas. As far as I can see, I transformed some refs into an alternate template, added a ref system to allow note inclusion, and began work to organize the bibliography. One can disagree with my choice of template, but it saves huge amounts of repetitive sourcing space, and, if one does it scrupulously enables a ragged article with over 500 notes, to have its references boiled down to half that, since the effect of tweak editing, adding a bit here, a bit there, over 20 years, creates ugly unreadable monsters. Since there are 30 solid books on Hamas, most of the article can be sourced to those: this is the goal of encyclopedic recension like the one I was endeavouring to do before being abruptly reverted. Whatever the options, someone at some point in time has to take a large article, unsystematically edited over decades, and put it into neat order and cogent quality referencing. Regards Nishidani (talk) 13:03, 4 October 2020 (UTC)

@Nishidani: Idk, I was looking at [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Hamas&type=revision&diff=981679863&oldid=981679477 this diff) where the lead has a stray efn floating around in the second sentence. Perhaps it was fixed and I missed it. Debresser is taking the Michael either way, in any case, and could easily have fixed whatever was irking him codewise but I think that was just an excuse.Selfstudier (talk) 13:14, 4 October 2020 (UTC)

Okay. When one gets down to editing in sequence, small things like that show as the page comes up, and are corrected immediately or, in my case, a friend usually runs the accumulated text I leave through his software program which fixes all format problems and citational errors, or redmarks them for correction. I tend to be careless, admittedly, since I edit almost wholly focused on content, getting the source-paraphrase correct, but as you say, the flaws or omissions, with a little patience and goodwill, are trivia easily fixed. That was not, evidently, the point of the erasure. But I'll leave that to the appropriate edit-warring venue to sort out. It's disappointing to be stopped in one's tracks at the very outset of a time-consuming attempt to bring rigour and quality to a complete article. Thanks

Closing discussion

I saw you closed the merge discussion. As an editor who was involved in that discussion, you should not do that. Mind you, I have no problem with you making the merge, but you should not close discussions which you were involved in yourself. Debresser (talk) 17:19, 21 October 2020 (UTC)

@Debresser: OK, I went by the instructions here where it says "any user" provided there is a rough consensus and it's not controversial. My apologies if I have misinterpreted that.Selfstudier (talk) 17:46, 21 October 2020 (UTC)

If a case is clear-cut, you can do it. I did it a few times, after explaining how the consensus was so clear, that even an involved editor could do it. On any article that is ARBPIA-related, I'd recommend more caution and refrain from doing it. It is generally frowned upon. But, again, you made the right call, and thanks for the merger. Debresser (talk) 23:17, 21 October 2020 (UTC)

Israeli RfC, let's keep it chill

Hi Selfstudier, while I appreciate we may not see eye-to-eye at this RfC, could you please try to frame your points in a more civil way? We're all on the same team here and I found the tone of your replies to myself and another editor unhelpful. All the best, Jr8825 • Talk 18:43, 10 November 2020 (UTC)

@Jr8825: If you have a real reason to complain, then state it. What does "unhelpful" mean? If instead, you are merely trying to say "you don't like it" well, I can't help with you that. I'm not going to sit still for the usual whitewash on this. Remember this RFC began with a revert of properly sourced material and was instigated by an unqualified editor who then proceeded to make trash talking points in a way that actually was uncivil.Selfstudier (talk) 18:53, 10 November 2020 (UTC)

I'm sorry if I was unclear, I'm trying to be polite as I'd like to work with you and other editors to find common ground. As you'd like me to be more clear about my concerns, I think you're violating WP:CIVIL, WP:NPA and WP:AGF, and I'd ask you to be more considerate. I'm not going to pursue this any further here, I just wanted to drop you a message to express my thoughts with the hope that we can have a more positive conversation going forward. Best, Jr8825 • Talk 19:14, 10 November 2020 (UTC)

@Jr8825: For the record, I disagree that I am in violation of any of those things. Ciao for now.Selfstudier (talk) 19:21, 10 November 2020 (UTC)

Disruptive removal of tags

This is the definition of disruptive. As the AfD closed no-consensus, there is an establishd non-consensus that this is notable. 11Fox11 (talk) 20:25, 22 November 2020 (UTC)

I don't agree and my edit summary states why. Note that, unlike your good self, I do not consider it necessary to revert, delete or otherwise alter what you have written on my talk page.Selfstudier (talk) 22:41, 22 November 2020 (UTC)

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Recent edit reversion

In this edit here, I reverted some information that appears to be a violation of our copyright policy.

I provided a brief summary of the problem in the edit summary, which should be visible just below my name. You can also click on the "view history" tab in the article to see the recent history of the article. This should be an edit with my name, and a parenthetical comment explaining why your edit was reverted. If that information is not sufficient to explain the situation, please ask.

I do occasionally make mistakes. We get hundreds of reports of potential copyright violations every week, and sometimes there are false positives, for a variety of reasons. (Perhaps the material was moved from another Wikipedia article, or the material was properly licensed but the license information was not obvious, or the material is in the public domain but I didn't realize it was public domain, and there can be other situations generating a report to our Copy Patrol tool that turn out not to be actual copyright violations.) If you think my edit was mistaken, please politely let me know and I will investigate. S Philbrick(Talk) 16:18, 4 December 2020 (UTC)

West Bank bantustans

Thanks for your hard work on this article.

Re this edit, the red question mark is generated automatically by my ETVP script(*). Its purpose is to draw editors' attention to a harv/sfn no-target error, in other words a short cite whose target does not exist. The reason might be a misspelling in, or omission of, one of the author(s) names, or of the year, or – as is the case here – the complete lack of the targeted full cite. As it was you who added the Harris & Ferry 2017 short cite, it is your responsibility to add the corresponding long cite to the biblio list. If you wish, you can install one of the scripts listed on the category page I've just linked to.

Normally I will try to fix these errors myself if they're obvious – and my script is even able to fix some of them automatically (in more cases than you might think). Unfortunately in this case I was unable to second-guess your intention, nor was my script able to fix it.

I chose the red q mark as something relatively easy for editors to spot, but it is still discrete enough not to deface the article in the same way that the enormous red error messages from the "no target" scripts do. It has to be discrete because it is visible to everybody, not just the few techy types who have installed a script.

Another little point that I didn't think worth mentioning before: there is a season that there should be no gaps between citations in biblio lists – see MOS:LISTGAP. This contrasts with citations in list-defined references, where my script does leave a gap for readability between citations.

Finally, the remark referring to "Quote" in your edit summary prompts me to note that it's a very bad idea to use the "ps=" parameter in sfn and its siblings for the purpose of adding quotations. See the extensive discussions at Template talk:sfn and its archives.

Thanks again for your work.

--NSH001 (talk) 12:30, 7 December 2020 (UTC)

(*)P.S. In case you're wondering what ETVP is, see Motivation for ETVP (very long - in TLDR territory) or a summary (shorter).

@NSH001: Hi, I'm a bit confused now, first I don't need a ps for the ref I included, the prose is sufficient in this case. Also, as I understand it, it is no longer necessary to include ref = harv in a source, it will behave as if ref = harv if you are just using the normal sfn ,which is what I was doing. The reason it was misbehaving was because I had put Harris instead of Harms in the sfn ref. I understand the point about using not ps in sfn, it will only work the first time you use it for that source and then breaks.Selfstudier (talk) 12:45, 7 December 2020 (UTC)

I drafted a lengthy explanation in response, but got an edit conflict when I tried to reply here. But I now see that you did eventually manage to twig the problem in the end. BTW you never need ref=harv nowadays (but it doesn't do any harm), although you do need | ref = {{harvid|something}} in those annoying cases where there are no authors or editors (the "something" has to be the same within the sfn and the harvid. --NSH001 (talk) 13:14, 7 December 2020 (UTC)

Drobles

I am trying to find an original copy of the Drobles map - this is the best I have found so far.

This map is the one I really want to find though. Per p.31+32 of this it seems to be split into three separate maps.

Onceinawhile (talk) 18:00, 10 December 2020 (UTC)

@Onceinawhile: There's this https://foreignpolicy.com/2020/02/11/trump-middle-east-peace-plan-isnt-new-israeli-palestinian-drobles/ . I can find a couple more besides, it went through a few iterations after the initial version, though.Selfstudier (talk) 18:07, 10 December 2020 (UTC)

Thank you. I wonder where they got it from - it would be great to get the other two sheets of that map. Pinging @Zero0000: who may have come across it. Onceinawhile (talk) 18:10, 10 December 2020 (UTC)

@Onceinawhile: Silly me, that's the same one you linked to start with:) The oldest refs I found was that I put in the article https://www.un.org/unispal/document/auto-insert-208886/ and cited to Matityahu Drobles, Master Plan for the Development of Settlement in Judea and Samaria, 1979-1983. Jerusalem: World Zionist Organization. October 1978, (mimeographed).Selfstudier (talk) 18:19, 10 December 2020 (UTC)

I didn't find any better. I can see from a Btselem report that the Drobles report used to be on the web (in Hebrew) but I don't have a url. Finding the Hebrew title would be a start. Zero^talk 01:46, 11 December 2020 (UTC)

• I think the plan was called: תכנית אב לפיתוח ההתיישבות ביהודה ושומרון
• Another map is here
• The Hebrew version of Arieli's paper is here
• The Hebrew Wikipedia article he: החטיבה להתיישבות is an interesting read via google translate

Onceinawhile (talk) 15:12, 11 December 2020 (UTC)

@Onceinawhile: This apparently comes from Benvinisti, M.; Khayat, S.: The West Bank and Gaza Atlas. West Bank Data Project, Jerusalem 1988.Selfstudier (talk) 16:39, 11 December 2020 (UTC)

Alerts

This is a standard message to notify contributors about an administrative ruling in effect. It does not imply that there are any issues with your contributions to date.

You have shown interest in articles about living or recently deceased people, and edits relating to the subject (living or recently deceased) of such biographical articles. Due to past disruption in this topic area, a more stringent set of rules called discretionary sanctions is in effect. Any administrator may impose sanctions on editors who do not strictly follow Wikipedia's policies, or the page-specific restrictions, when making edits related to the topic.

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Formal notice of ban

Selfstudier, this is formal notice that you are hereby banned from my talk page. Any future post, with the exception of required notices, shall constitute harassment and shall be dealt with as such.

Please also stop with your continual attacks on talk pages and stop stalking my edits. If this won't stop, I shall take action. 11Fox11 (talk) 19:22, 12 December 2020 (UTC)

@11Fox11: This is what was posted on your talk page and promptly deleted by you:

Per above, EdJohnston suggested that "you avoid blanket reverts in the future." It seems you are not heeding this advice as you have just done precisely that here? Care to explain? Selfstudier (talk) 11:24, 12 December 2020 (UTC)

Your accusations are false, including those that you made in response to @EdJohnston: on your talk page, if you think otherwise please feel free to take the matter to the relevant noticeboard and we will discuss it there.Selfstudier (talk) 13:49, 13 December 2020 (UTC)

If a report is filed by 11Fox11, I will be contributing and noting your persistent use of inappropriate and offensive Holocaust analogies and attacks on other editors (due to some editors choking on the obvious reality). Wikieditor19920 (talk) 16:39, 15 December 2020 (UTC)

See my response above to 11Fox11Selfstudier (talk) 18:50, 15 December 2020 (UTC)

I appreciate you taking it into consideration. Happy editing! Wikieditor19920 (talk) 02:30, 16 December 2020 (UTC)

Your question

As to your question posed to me today, I do not know the answer, although from looking at the English Wikipedia article, the answers seem to lie in the references shown in the lede paragraph.Davidbena (talk) 14:26, 29 January 2021 (UTC)

I will not

Report me if you must, but you have made no contributions. This time the onus is on you to disprove such a thing, Filastiniun. --WikiCleanerMan (talk) 16:59, 4 February 2021 (UTC)

1RR

Your latest edit at Palestinian enclaves violated 1RR. Please self-revert. Wikieditor19920 (talk) 23:27, 6 February 2021 (UTC)

Please point it out.Selfstudier (talk) 23:34, 6 February 2021 (UTC)

This is a plain revert. On closer examination, this could be a partial revert, though I don't know the full history of this section of the article. I'm not going to escalate this and you can do what you want since I'm not totally clear. But you should allow the discussion on whether "bantustans" is an appropriate alternate name to play out before deciding to re-bold it. Prior consensus rejected it as an appropriate name for the article, and I believe that would extend to including it as an alternate name absent consensus otherwise. The same goes for the tag -- you really should leave it up while the discussion continues. Thanks. Wikieditor19920 (talk) 23:39, 6 February 2021 (UTC)

Your "partial revert" argument is incorrect. Content has been added and nothing has been taken out, merely moved under a new heading. Plus that other edit wasn't made by you to begin with. The other discussion is continuing on the appropriate page which this is not. I suggest you be more careful about what you are posting.Selfstudier (talk) 23:46, 6 February 2021 (UTC)

"Consensus required"

Hi, save my addled brain some exercise, is this the usual consensus but with BRD enforced, kind of? Selfstudier (talk) 12:54, 20 February 2021 (UTC)

Hey. Yeah, kind of, though, I actually view it as more like an enforced WP:ONUS, rather (i.e. praise be to longstanding text!). Does that make sense. El_C 14:29, 20 February 2021 (UTC)

@El C: Hmm, people do still need some decent reason to revert, is that right? Selfstudier (talk) 14:36, 20 February 2021 (UTC)

Yes, that has always been my approach to CR. Unexplained, unsubstantiated reverts would be viewed as WP:GAMEing the restriction. El_C 14:40, 20 February 2021 (UTC)

@El C: Thank you, that seems clear.Selfstudier (talk) 14:43, 20 February 2021 (UTC)

Anytime, Selfstudier. Please don't hesitate to drop by my talk page again with any further queries (even if it may end up being answered at another train station. Choo-choo!). El_C 14:47, 20 February 2021 (UTC)

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Edit-warring at Arab states–Israeli alliance against Iran

You are now edit-warring to restore a tag that defies a near universal consensus on that the tag should not remain because there is no underlying issue. Wikieditor19920 (talk) 18:11, 13 March 2021 (UTC)

@Wikieditor19920: As per the note I just posted on your talk page (it makes no difference that you have deleted it), your removal of a tag that is currently the subject of an RFC is what is disruptive. You should look into the history of the thing before making free with your opinions. One of the editors was already blocked for removing tags in the article, the membership list is the main subject of dispute, it was tagged for OR and citations pre-RFC but the tags were improperly removed and I could not be bothered to restore them. As for fixing the V problem, which IS actually possible, every attempt I made to do so was obstructed.Selfstudier (talk) 18:22, 13 March 2021 (UTC)

Yes, I saw that you have a specific issue with a country on the membership list, which is why I suggested an in-line citation, which can certainly be placed in the info box. "Disputed" or "Fails verification" or "Citation needed" would all be acceptable, not an article-wide banner.

Second, there is near universal opposition to maintaining the tag as you placed it in the RfC that you opened. The only other supporting user claims that either the tag should remain there as a badge of shame or the article should be deleted -- a claim that basically advocates tagbombing.

Finally, I am very familiar with the policy regarding tags. If you recall, we discussed this over several threads[16][17][18] over a cleanup tag that I had applied to another PIA article almost exactly a year ago. Unlike now, then you repeatedly removed a tag that I had added and for an issue over which there was active disagreement between an even number of users. That is not present here. You have re-added the tag using process arguments three times now, reverting three different editors, so I have absolutely no idea how another editor was blocked, but your conduct is troubling enough to warrant attention as well if it did for that other editor. Using process arguments like "there is an open RfC" doesn't hold weight when the RfC is entirely against you, and you are largely recycling arguments already rejected in the prior delete and merge discussions. Wikieditor19920 (talk) 18:32, 13 March 2021 (UTC)

@Wikieditor19920: If you are expecting any meaningful response to this you will have a long wait. I don't feel the need to delete it either.Selfstudier (talk) 18:41, 13 March 2021 (UTC)

Making the tag the point of controversy itself, rather than the underlying content issue, is a distracting waste of time and does not present a fixable issue for people to address. That's why I suggested a targeted in-line cleanup template. Do as you wish. Wikieditor19920 (talk) 19:18, 13 March 2021 (UTC)

@Wikieditor19920: As I said, prior attempts to resolve the issues were not only blocked, more rubbish was added in to the article on top of what was there already. I asked the opposing editors to start an RFC and their response was to "team" and edit the tags out of the article. I put back one of them and started the RFC as the only means to force a meaningful discussion of the issues, which we are finally having even if its like pulling teeth. I didn't do it for fun and I would rather be working on other things but that's life.Selfstudier (talk) 19:30, 13 March 2021 (UTC)

It's a difficult issue because it's mostly based on the observations of commentators. I certainly don't like a team of like-minded editors all taking the same position just for the sake of it if that's truly what happened. If you were to present a specific issue with the tag, I might be inclined to agree. I concur that Morocco's presence on that "list" seems kind of fuzzy. It's just difficult to figure out what the disagreement is actually about when all I see is a tag at the top of the page about verification, but no in-line cleanups, and the RfC is itself about the tag rather than the actual content objections. Wikieditor19920 (talk) 19:37, 13 March 2021 (UTC)

@Wikieditor19920: Adoring Nanny took Oman out which is partial progress, how anyone could ever have thought that Oman was a member of such an alliance is beyond me. Sudan and Morocco have cut ties to Iran but that is not the same as saying they have joined an alliance with Israel against Iran and as yet I can find no real evidence that they have. The Saudi case is not really that clear either although it is very clear they have problems with Iran. If it were only possible to produce a single source saying countries X, Y, blah are "members" but no joy so far. The shame is that there is quite a decent as well as interesting article to be had if one is not hamstrung by the need for an anti Iran alliance to exist, the common antipathy would then be enough.Selfstudier (talk) 19:54, 13 March 2021 (UTC)

I would agree with that, and I think the problem with the article is that it presents what is basically an observation shared by scholars as if it is a de facto/informal agreement entered into by the countries themselves. Wikieditor19920 (talk) 00:44, 14 March 2021 (UTC)

1RR

You broke 1RR please self revert [19],[20] --Shrike (talk) 10:07, 28 March 2021 (UTC)

@Shrike:I self reverted even though one of the reverts is of my own edit, I am not sure of the position there and I don't want to be wikilawyered. However, if no-one else does it, I will be reverting this material in due course as it has been reverted twice before and you are essentially edit warring it back in.Selfstudier (talk) 10:19, 28 March 2021 (UTC)

Reverting your own actions does not count as a revert, see WP:3RRNO. Zero^talk 11:52, 28 March 2021 (UTC)

WP:ONUS

This edit of yours - [21] was reverted [22], and then you promptly re-instated it, without gaining consensus, or even discussing it, here - [23]. What was that you were saying about disruptive editing here? Kenosha Forever (talk) 23:24, 4 April 2021 (UTC)

@Kenosha Forever: You may continue to compare apples and oranges all day long, if it pleases you. By the way, do you have nothing better to do than follow me about? I don't care if you do but perhaps your energies would be better directed to something more constructive?Selfstudier (talk) 23:30, 4 April 2021 (UTC)

Apples and apples in this case, and you can expect may more of these. As I wrote you before, I take a dim view of disruption and double standards. Kenosha Forever (talk) 00:43, 5 April 2021 (UTC)

(talk page watcher) @Kenosha Forever: if you haven't already come across it, I suggest you take a look at WP:WIKIHOUNDING. Tracking another user's edits must be done very carefully to avoid disrupting the other editor's enjoyment, as this runs against Wikipedia's harassment policy. Jr8825 • Talk 00:58, 5 April 2021 (UTC)

Extended content

(from S talk page) BDS Restoring material that has been reverted by multiple editors and when there is an ongoing discussion on the article talk page is disruptive editing.Selfstudier (talk) 13:09, 4 April 2021 (UTC) Selfstudier, Removing sourced information restored by multiple editors is disruptive editing. Shrike (talk) 13:22, 4 April 2021 (UTC) ONUS, read it.Selfstudier (talk) 13:26, 4 April 2021 (UTC) You don't seem to be such a big fan of ONUS when it doesn't suit you, Selfstudier- https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=An-Nakba&type=revision&diff=1015952119&oldid=1015925206. Please stop being disruptive. Kenosha Forever (talk) 15:13, 4 April 2021 (UTC) @Kenosha Forever:If you wish to level unfounded accusations, kindly do so at my talk page rather than using that of another editor. Thank you.Selfstudier (talk) 15:22, 4 April 2021 (UTC) My accusations are very well founded, and this specific one was supported with a link, above, for an edit you made today. I could easily produce half a dozen other examples where you ignored WP:ONUS when it suited you. Stop being disruptive and take a close look at the double standards you are applying. Kenosha Forever (talk) 15:37, 4 April 2021 (UTC) (From K talk page) Uncivil behavior I have responded to a note you addressed to me at the user page of editor Shrike. Please be so good as to direct your commentaries, accusations, whatever is on your mind concerning myself, to my talk page. Thank you.Selfstudier (talk) 15:26, 4 April 2021 (UTC) Selfstudier, There is no nothing uncivil in this. Its my page and this user is welcome to post there. But your unfounded accusations is uncivil and disruptive Shrike (talk) 15:49, 4 April 2021 (UTC) @Kenosha Forever:If you wish to level unfounded accusations, kindly do so at my talk page rather than using that of another editor. Thank you.Selfstudier (talk) 15:22, 4 April 2021 (UTC) Selfstudier (talk) 15:26, 4 April 2021 (UTC) I will post where I want, thanks. I take a very dim view of hypocrisy and disruptive behavior. Kenosha Forever (talk) 15:32, 4 April 2021 (UTC) Noted that you have repeated said uncivil behavior. Keep going.Selfstudier (talk) 15:46, 4 April 2021 (UTC) Shrike has already noted above that he has no problem with this, you can move on now. Kenosha Forever (talk) 17:47, 4 April 2021 (UTC) Disruptive editing I see that you are removing large amounts of material at Nakba based on your personal view as to what the article should be covering. Apart from the fact that there are relevant ongoing discussions about that subject, your edit summaries are in addition misleading:- "not about the term" is not a satisfactory reason for mass removal of sourced material.Selfstudier (talk) 15:41, 4 April 2021 (UTC) Selfstudier, Read WP:ONUS Shrike (talk) 15:46, 4 April 2021 (UTC) There is nothing disruptive about making an article conform to what those contesting its deletion are saying it is about- this discussion is best continued on the article talk page. Kenosha Forever (talk) 15:48, 4 April 2021 (UTC)

Disambiguation link notification for April 23

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Notes

Re Cats Selfstudier (talk) 21:27, 18 May 2021 (UTC)

ARBPIA

This is a standard message to notify contributors about an administrative ruling in effect. It does not imply that there are any issues with your contributions to date. You have shown interest in the Arab–Israeli conflict. Due to past disruption in this topic area, a more stringent set of rules called discretionary sanctions is in effect. Any administrator may impose sanctions on editors who do not strictly follow Wikipedia's policies, or the page-specific restrictions, when making edits related to the topic. For additional information, please see the guidance on discretionary sanctions and the Arbitration Committee's decision here. If you have any questions, or any doubts regarding what edits are appropriate, you are welcome to discuss them with me or any other editor.

Ibn Daud (talk) 22:34, 18 May 2021 (UTC)

Page mover granted

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move request

it would be better if you made your support or opposition once and did not respond to each person to attempt to prove them wrong. nableezy - 22:56, 21 May 2021 (UTC)

ITN recognition for 2021 Israel–Palestine crisis

On 22 May 2021, In the news was updated with an item that involved the article 2021 Israel–Palestine crisis, which you updated. If you know of another recently created or updated article suitable for inclusion in ITN, please suggest it on the candidates page. starship.paint (exalt) 15:47, 22 May 2021 (UTC)

2021 Israeli–Palestinian crisis

Can you close the RM on that article? It lasted over week and hasn’t reached a consensus Ridax2020 (talk) 16:32, 25 May 2021 (UTC)

@Ridax2020: I'm a participant so I can't, just need to wait. Or you can ask at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:AN/RFC if you are in a hurry.Selfstudier (talk) 16:42, 25 May 2021 (UTC)

sensitivity

Hello talk, you didn't seem to have addressed the issue on the talk page of the 2021 conflict. Please refrain from abusive behavior ( ad-hominem, ignoring people message, trash talk, etc ), I really can't deal with seeing people do that, thank you for understanding my feelings. Best regards --Rectangular dome (talk) 11:50, 1 June 2021 (UTC)

@Rectangular dome: No idea what you are talking about. If you mean the commentary about Al-Jalaa I already edited that into the article, so placed a "Done". OK?Selfstudier (talk) 12:04, 1 June 2021 (UTC)

Concern regarding Draft:Abdullah and Zionism

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Canvassing

You pretty experienced user to know that WP:CANVASS is not acceptable as you notified[24] person only of similar POV.As you well aware there are noticeboards for that. If you continue such behavior I will report you. --Shrike (talk) 07:04, 11 June 2021 (UTC)

@Shrike: Please don't be ridiculous, it's for collaboration on a new article that needs work, no "votes" involved.Selfstudier (talk) 08:39, 11 June 2021 (UTC)

That is really remarkable, Shrike. That is scraping the barrel, to assert a request for collaboration on an article is tantamount to canvassing. Haven't you learnt the elementary difference between lockstep editing (typical of socks) and collaborative article production in the last decade? Nishidani (talk) 08:56, 11 June 2021 (UTC)

Selfstudier, It doesn't matter these contentious one sided article. If you want help from other editors there are appropriate noticeboards so not people that you share your pov will come. I am not going to argue with you anymore but I will report you if you do it again. --Shrike (talk) 15:00, 11 June 2021 (UTC)

That isnt canvassing. There isnt a vote here. My talk page isnt private. He is asking for help on a new article. Go ahead and report him. Maybe you can get somebody to write the report for you in impeccable English again. nableezy - 15:13, 11 June 2021 (UTC)

By all means feel free to ask me, for one, to help you on any projected article you might like to write. Ignore Shrike's attempts at harassment. It's huffandpuffery without any policy basis, as he/they for one should know.Nishidani (talk) 16:43, 11 June 2021 (UTC)

samesies. nableezy - 17:16, 11 June 2021 (UTC)

Shrike: A slightly stale conversation, but worth noting so that you don't continue making false accusations, the Wikipedia:Canvassing guideline, which you linked to above, relates specifically to discussions, not article editing: "Canvassing is notification done with the intention of influencing the outcome of a discussion in a particular way, and is considered inappropriate." As Selfstudier pointed out, no "votes" were involved.     ←   ZScarpia   12:32, 27 August 2021 (UTC)

I really like your username!

Sincerely, a fellow autodidact. Benevolent human (talk) 18:38, 15 June 2021 (UTC)

Re List of countries and dependencies by population

Whatever happened to WP:BRD? I specifically asked for a discussion in the talk page. Since I do not take part in edit wars, I ask you to self revert and start the discussion. --T*U (talk) 13:24, 24 June 2021 (UTC)

@TU-nor: BRD is an essay not a policy, nor was it me that you reverted, it was another editor. Apart from that, its not for use in order simply to enforce your POV. At least 2 editors support the change, if you wish to begin a discussion on the talk page, you can do so or begin an RFC if you feel strongly about the issue.Selfstudier (talk) 13:32, 24 June 2021 (UTC)

As for enforce your POV, isn't that exactly what you do when you just reject disagreement about a bold edit? I know it was not your edit originally, but by repeating it, you become as involved as Guarapiranga. The least one of you could do is to give a rationale for the change, as required by WP:CONSENSUS, which is a policy. --T*U (talk) 13:51, 24 June 2021 (UTC)

@TU-nor: I gave my rationale when I reinstated the edit. You believe that to be a rationale for removal, I believe the opposite. Horses for courses.Selfstudier (talk) 14:17, 24 June 2021 (UTC)

No rationale has been given for adding this column to the table in the first place. --T*U (talk) 14:29, 24 June 2021 (UTC)

@TU-nor: I understand you disagree with the addition, let's wait a bit and see whether others agree with you.Selfstudier (talk) 14:33, 24 June 2021 (UTC)

Reply for you

Hello. I wish you good work. I wrote at length what you mentioned on the Sevres treaty talk page. This map is not the Sevres map. The Sykes-Picot map that was never implemented. There is a big mistake here.Luisao Araujo (talk) 09:07, 29 June 2021 (UTC)

@Luisao Araujo: Please write your opinion on the relevant article pages, not here on my talk page, thank you.Selfstudier (talk) 09:11, 29 June 2021 (UTC)

Reminder: TALKNO

In order to avoid misrepresention of other people, be precise in quoting others. When referencing other people's contributions or edits, use "diffs.", see WP:TALKNO Infinity Knight (talk) 04:43, 20 July 2021 (UTC)

Where did I misquote you? Provide a diff, please.Selfstudier (talk) 09:05, 20 July 2021 (UTC)

Jewish-owned

While generally I am opposed to designating any corporation, business's ownership on ethno-religious lines, here it seemed to illuminate something. It is true that Unilever subsumed Jerry and Ben's into their corporation, but apparently the buy-out agreement left the two friends with some powers, their own board, and as CEOs. I don't know the precise details but the source does mention that the two are Jewish, and, if so, the decision they took assumes an additional perspective in terms of the I/P conflict. A firm founded by Jews and, whatever the arrangements, run by them joining a boycott of the territories is more significant than just any anonymous corporation taking a stand. It certainly will expose them to the risk of an extreme backlash. I won't harp on the point, but their ethnicity is stated as a factor in Arria.Nishidani (talk) 11:30, 20 July 2021 (UTC)

@Nishidani: I also don't know all the details of it, I took the "Jewish owned" to be referring to the Israeli licensee rather than to BnJ itself.Selfstudier (talk) 11:33, 20 July 2021 (UTC)

Haven't checked and am starved for time today. I read it the other way. On second thought, if those two decent entrepreneurs haven't publicly identified themselves as Jews, we shouldn't be mentioning that. Nishidani (talk) 11:37, 20 July 2021 (UTC)

Wikipedia Wars and the Israel-Palestine conflict...please fill out my survey?

Hello :) I am writing my MA dissertation on Wikipedia Wars and the Israel-Palestine conflict, and I noticed that you have contributed to those pages. My dissertation will look at the process of collaborative knowledge production on the Israel-Palestine conflict, and the effect it has on bias in the articles. This will involve understanding the profiles and motivations of editors, contention/controversy and dispute resolution in the talk pages, and bias in the final article.

For more information, you can check out my meta-wiki research page or my user page, where I will be posting my findings when I am done.

I would greatly appreciate if you could take 5 minutes to fill out this quick survey before 8 August 2021.

Participation in this survey is entirely voluntary and anonymous. There are no foreseeable risks nor benefits to you associated with this project.

Thanks so much,

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Sarabnas ^{I'm researching Wikipedia} _Questions? 21:01, 20 July 2021 (UTC)

January/October

I don't know why this topic is exaggerated. Our disagreement was about the date!! And it's not about something bigger. I know I should have read the news carefully. Perhaps the large number of such recommendations created some kind of confusion. Thank you--Sakiv (talk) 13:59, 20 August 2021 (UTC)

@Sakiv: What is this about? If it is about the standard ai warning I placed on your page (I see you have immediately blanked it), it does not require any response, it just means take care when editing ai pages subject to arbpia sanctions, that's all.Selfstudier (talk) 14:04, 20 August 2021 (UTC)

I got the notice and emptying it doesn't mean I won't comply. Since these recommendations have been repeated, we should rather mention them, and not only January 2018.--Sakiv (talk) 14:07, 20 August 2021 (UTC)

@Sakiv: I'm afraid I have no idea what you are referring to? What recommendations? If this is something to do with List of states with limited recognition please use that talk page.Selfstudier (talk) 14:15, 20 August 2021 (UTC)

Suspending recognition of Israel! AA, Times of Israel--Sakiv (talk) 14:16, 20 August 2021 (UTC)

@Sakiv: To repeat, please use the relevant talk page and not this page. Thank you.Selfstudier (talk) 14:18, 20 August 2021 (UTC)

Genuine message

Hello, I didn't enjoy the interaction. Please refrain from messaging me in general. If you see a remark I make on a talkpage, you do not have to feel obliged to give conter-criticism of the criticism itself, rather choose to address it in general without asking me to personally respond to you. I don't see the point, and I respond solely because of the provocation, not from interest in the discussion. It's quiet unpleasant and useless.

I don't need counseling. Goodbye

--Vanlister (talk) 11:42, 24 August 2021 (UTC)

@Vanlister: Yet another speech. Goodbye to you too.Selfstudier (talk) 11:56, 24 August 2021 (UTC)

Demographic history of Palestine

There was no reason for you to revert my edit as you just did. There are already numerous mentions of individual waves of migration, such as Bosniak immigration in the 1870s and Egyptian migration in the 1840s. I don't know what you mean by "address issue in global terms" but I don't see how my insertion violated any rules. In fact it shows something of demographic significance in the south of the land. You appear to have unilaterally made up this rule out of whole cloth.--RM (Be my friend) 12:19, 12 September 2021 (UTC)

@Reenem: If I address this, I will address it on the article talk page where it belongs.Selfstudier (talk) 13:06, 12 September 2021 (UTC)

Significant actions on the Arab Jews page

To editor Selfstudier: Some pretty significant actions have been taken on the Arab Jews page that appear to be POV and arguably constitute vandalism. They appear to be partially in response to some citation needed and dead link tagging that I did. I believe all of these tags have now been removed regardless of whether they have neen addressed, together with a disputed neutrality tag. But more than that, as you will see, the infobox has been deleted, the short description modified to reflect a perspective supported only by a single sentence in the summary that is its only support in the article, and a number of other, arguably POV, changes have been made to both the summary section and other parts of the article. My instinct with regards to this, particularly the unscrupulous and non-consensual infobox deletion, was that it constitutes vandalism and that rolling back the recent changes was the most sensible course. But not wanting to get into hot water, and not sure whether a rollback constitutes multiple reverts, I thought I'd alert someone clearly experienced in the conflict area about the problem. Iskandar323 (talk) 02:56, 20 September 2021 (UTC)

Ah, I see you've coincidentally had previous issues with the same user for unexplained content removal. Iskandar323 (talk) 07:19, 20 September 2021 (UTC)

To editor Iskandar323: You need to be careful about using the word "vandalism" to describe actions of editors even if they are edit-warring and even if their edits violate policy. On Wikipedia, "vandalism" has a much stricter meaning, for things like inserting obscenities and blanking whole pages. So for example the 3RR and 1RR rules don't apply to reverting "vandalism", but if you try to use that to justify breaking those rules at Arab Jews in the present circumstances you will get into trouble. On your question, a sequence of consecutive edits that undoes the work of another editor constitutes one revert. (Consecutive means that no other editor made an edit between them; always check as the timing can catch you out.) A single edit that undoes several bits of work of other editors at once is also one revert. So a rollback can't be more than one revert all by itself. Zero^talk 08:01, 20 September 2021 (UTC)

Point taken - in fact, I had already tweaked my own language: On the article's talk page, I have rephrased it as 'unconstructive edits', though I did look up the vandalism definition, where it suggests that the largescale removal of material with no explanation provided is a form of vandalism, albeit a subtle one. That is why I couched it in terms of 'possible' or 'arguably' vandalism, but took no action and performed no immediate reversion. Instead, I opened the talk page section encouraging the user to undue their own unexplained edits. Iskandar323 (talk) 08:11, 20 September 2021 (UTC)

That article is not on my watchlist, raising the issues on the talk page is probably the right thing to do for now, I should think interested editors will likely respond there.Selfstudier (talk) 10:23, 20 September 2021 (UTC)

To editor Iskandar323: - on your talk page you were asking about canvassing - this is a textbook example. If you are concerned about possible POV edits to that article, you cans (1) raise them on its talk page (2) raise them on some central discussion page or (3) directly ask ALL users who have been involved in editing that page for input. Coming to just 1 user, who often sides with your POV , and asking for just his their input is canvassing. Inf-in MD (talk)

To editor Inf-in MD: - it's not clear to me that Selfstudier sides with anyone. They seem extraordinarily neutral and a model example to be followed by other editors on this platform. I trust them to be sensible. However, I have been asking Selfstudier some technical questions and they have been helpful enough to answer. In any case, I have already been instructed not to post on talk pages in future. Iskandar323 (talk) 12:14, 20 September 2021 (UTC)

Breaking the 1RR rule

[25][26]. Undo yourself. 11Fox11 (talk) 17:49, 30 September 2021 (UTC)

@11Fox11: Your second diff is an addition of material not a revert.Selfstudier (talk) 17:56, 30 September 2021 (UTC)

Both are reverts. I am writing up the AE report beginning 5 minutes from now. 11Fox11 (talk) 17:59, 30 September 2021 (UTC)

@11Fox11: What is your second diff a revert of? Selfstudier (talk) 18:00, 30 September 2021 (UTC)

You should know yourself. You were given a chance. 11Fox11 (talk) 18:02, 30 September 2021 (UTC)

@11Fox11: I have just had another look and I can't see what it is you are referring to, why not just explain? If I have breached 1R I will fix it but I would like to know what you think your second diff is a revert of? Selfstudier (talk) 18:08, 30 September 2021 (UTC)

You are now reported at Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Enforcement. 11Fox11 (talk) 18:40, 30 September 2021 (UTC)

Disruptive Editing

Your disruptive editing has been reported in Incident reports.

You can view the report here.

-- Bob drobbs (talk) 22:08, 1 October 2021 (UTC)

@Bob drobbs: I believe this is the first time that you have posted anything on my talk page. I wanted to ask you whether you read the top at ANI, the bit where it says:

"Before posting a grievance about a user on this page:

   Take a look at these tips for dealing with incivility
   Consider first discussing the issue on the user's talk page
   Or try dispute resolution.
   Want to skip the drama? Check the Recently Active Admins list for admins who may be able to help directly.!

Selfstudier (talk) 22:28, 1 October 2021 (UTC)

I read it. I decided that speaking to you here would almost certainly be no more productive than speaking with you on other talk pages, and you were already aware of most of the problems discussed in the incident report. Please take anything else you have to say there. -- Bob drobbs (talk) 23:05, 1 October 2021 (UTC)

List of sovereign states

Sorry for my bold edit in List of sovereign states, I did not now that if I have fewer than 500 edits I am prohibited from editing any page related to the Arab–Israeli conflict. I saw that pages which extended confirmed protected I can not edit, by List of sovereign states is not protected. Let us discuss my proposal on Talk:List of sovereign states#Observer states. Do you have any substantive objections? --Somerby (talk) 10:58, 6 October 2021 (UTC)

@Somerby: There is another notice on the page apart from the Arbpia notice, changes to the organization of the tables also requires prior consensus and the discussion on the talk page in the section prior to the one you created indicates that no such consensus currently exists.(non ecp editors may not edit the related content).Selfstudier (talk) 11:05, 6 October 2021 (UTC)

October 2021

Hello, I'm TerraCyprus. Although everyone is welcome to contribute to Wikipedia, it's important to be mindful of the feelings of your fellow editors, who may be frustrated by certain types of interaction, such as your addition to User talk:TerraCyprus. While you probably didn't intend any offense, please do remember that Wikipedia strives to be an inclusive atmosphere. In light of that, it would be greatly appreciated if you could moderate yourself so as not to offend. Thank you. TerraCyprus (talk) 15:15, 6 October 2021 (UTC)

@TerraCyprus: You have reverted two edits I made to your page, while they may no longer be visible they remain in the history. I have twice pointed out your incivility (referring to me as a troll) as well as WP:IDHT and WP:BLUDGEON behaviour re WP:WESTBANK in the context of a discussion re categories. There is only one likely outcome here.Selfstudier (talk) 15:21, 6 October 2021 (UTC)

79

stop engaging like that on the talk page with the IP, it is not helping. nableezy - 15:00, 12 October 2021 (UTC)

You're tangentially involved in an ANI discussion

I wanted to notify you that you're tangentially involved in an issue I've raised at ANI in this discussion. Thanks! ezlev (user/tlk/ctrbs) 19:36, 13 October 2021 (UTC)

JC again

Hey, hope you are well, have you seen Cathcart's article on the Hacked Off page? I think we may be near to having to bring this back up at RS noticeboard. Boynamedsue (talk) 17:47, 14 October 2021 (UTC)

@Boynamedsue: I don't want to see again the conclusion "biased for..." I'd be looking for unreliable for..., their record is awful but let's see if we can get a bit more first, do you think? Selfstudier (talk) 13:38, 18 October 2021 (UTC)

I think that makes sense. The real difficulty is showing the terrible quality of reporting without TLDR problems, if you look at the article where they libelled Wadsworth, they were also falsely representing events at the meeting he wasn't at. It's stuff like that which really makes the paper unusable, the libel judgments and IPSO rulings are symptoms rather than the problem in itself. Boynamedsue (talk) 16:18, 19 October 2021 (UTC)

Page mover granted

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If you do not want the page mover right anymore, just let me know, and I'll remove it. Thank you, and happy editing! Seddon ^talk 23:29, 14 November 2021 (UTC)

Nomination for deletion of Template:QoP

Template:QoP has been nominated for deletion. You are invited to comment on the discussion at the entry on the Templates for discussion page. WikiCleanerMan (talk) 17:01, 15 November 2021 (UTC)

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Notice of edit warring noticeboard discussion

Hello. This message is being sent to inform you that there is currently a discussion involving you at Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Edit warring regarding a possible violation of Wikipedia's policy on edit warring. The thread is Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Edit warring#User:Selfstudier reported by User:Nomoskedasticity (Result: ). Thank you. Nomoskedasticity (talk) 20:07, 30 November 2021 (UTC)

Notice of edit warring noticeboard discussion

Hello. This message is being sent to inform you that there is currently a discussion involving you at Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Edit warring regarding a possible violation of Wikipedia's policy on edit warring. Thank you. Nomoskedasticity (talk) 20:08, 30 November 2021 (UTC)

Alert

Electronic Intifada is not reliable source per WP:RSP in general and clearly could not used in WP:BLP Shrike (talk) 20:33, 30 November 2021 (UTC)

Re-added Shrike's comment minus the DS alert EvergreenFir (talk) 20:37, 30 November 2021 (UTC)

He was alerted by sock so I am not sure how the DS alert is valid Shrike (talk) 20:41, 30 November 2021 (UTC)

An alert is an alert imo. EvergreenFir (talk) 20:44, 30 November 2021 (UTC)

Shrike. You just voted for the retention of David Collier (activist) which contains BLP info re this non-notable person from a notoriously unreliable tabloid Israel Hayom. EI is highly critical of the occupation, IH thoroughly approves of it. Double standards? No. Just POV pushing.Nishidani (talk) 21:34, 30 November 2021 (UTC)

@Shrike: Ordinarily, as you are well aware, I tend to use only the best sourcing, most often scholarly. In this case I decided to apply WP:COMMON because (as an editor has just pointed out on the relevant talk page) it is rather peculiar that we cannot address the acknowledged fact (it's out in the wild but not in WP) of a leaked report merely because that report has been made available for download by an unreliable source. I was very careful with the relevant edit, it's purpose was to disclose the claim that such a report existed and to provide a link to it and pending third party confirmation of that primary source material (which I added a tag for at the same time as making the edit). Of course, you may argue that I have overstepped the mark with WP:COMMON but what else is such an exception for if not something of this sort?Selfstudier (talk) 23:14, 30 November 2021 (UTC)

Advice or rather can you do this?

I want to write an article on Palestinianism which, as you can see if you click on it, simply turns out to be a redirect to Palestinian nationalism. This is totally unsausage-factory because the term has a half a century of peculiar history that cannot be covered under that rubric, since it is interpreted so many different ways. Is it possible to cancel the redirect to create a proper article on this fascinating lexeme? Nishidani (talk) 13:49, 1 December 2021 (UTC)

@Nishidani: I had a similar doubt recently, Nableezy said to just edit it :) Click on it and up at the top left of the page you will see "(Redirected from Palestinianism)" so then click on it there and it will open up the redirect for editing, delete the redirect.Selfstudier (talk) 13:56, 1 December 2021 (UTC)

Thanks. One more reason why that ratbag shouldn't be permsbanned, at least the the moment. But since you channeled his trick to me, you'll have to take the blame for the article's (dis)content:)Nishidani (talk) 17:41, 1 December 2021 (UTC)

I didn't know there was history there, I guess I don't need to know really:) Selfstudier (talk) 17:53, 1 December 2021 (UTC)

I may be hauling water to my own mill, but all words have a history, and examining the genealogy of use of key words (Raymond Williams) is a sine qua non for assessing what is going on in any discursive field. Most I/P newspaper reportage at least is totally contaminated by a perhaps designed confusion about terminology. Clarifying terms, and the conceptual ground they bounce off leaving (bull) dust in their wake, suddenly allows one a more incisive vision of the lay of the real world under the misty rhetorical dustups. There's a lot more to that term, which I hope to get time to add tomorrow, which will suddenly enlighten those who read smeary brandishings of "Palestinianism", and enable them to grasp thenature of that particular flagwaving fuss. Cheers Nishidani (talk) 20:45, 1 December 2021 (UTC)

Broken table

I don't at all mind you collapsing the table in the AFD. That was totally reasonable. But when you collapsed it, it seems you broke it. It doesn't expand.

Would you please fix it? -- Bob drobbs (talk) 23:56, 4 December 2021 (UTC)

Nevermind. Fixed it myself. -- Bob drobbs (talk) 00:10, 5 December 2021 (UTC)

JC

Did you see Cathcart saying that the IPSO decision on the standards enquiry is due in a couple of days? --Boynamedsue (talk) 07:42, 12 December 2021 (UTC)

With Pollard departure, it might be that things will improve, I'm not convinced though, this kind of thing is top down. I hope IPSO is not going to take some bs promises to do better as an excuse for doing nothing.Selfstudier (talk) 10:59, 12 December 2021 (UTC)

I think for wikipedia's purposes, such a promise would be enough to show that not even the paper considers its output to have been reliable. That might well get us beyond the "no consensus it is reliable on the British Left, Muslims, Islam, Palestinians and Palestine" which is currently the status quo. Boynamedsue (talk) 11:55, 12 December 2021 (UTC)

@Boynamedsue: Seems that JC staff will receive training, presumably they have been working all this time untrained. Why am I not surprised? Perhaps we could "deprecate" IPSO? Selfstudier (talk) 10:18, 5 January 2022 (UTC)

They have already received it once, iirc. Seems not to have stuck. Boynamedsue (talk) 13:04, 5 January 2022 (UTC)

BTW, have you read the IPSO letter, they seem to admit there are problems at the JC, and argue more time is needed to see if the training received is effective and imply that the change of editorship is a factor in their decision not to investigate. I would argue that this letter states that IPSO perceive them as operating at a lower level than the other publications it "monitors", such as the Sun and the Mail. The most recent Cathcart article also deals very nicely with the "all papers make mistakes" argument. Might it be worth going to RfC again? Boynamedsue (talk) 13:17, 5 January 2022 (UTC)

Hmm, 6 months probation, reads as. Any thoughts on how to word a possible RFC? Selfstudier (talk) 13:34, 5 January 2022 (UTC)

The question must obviously be neutral, and should again be limited to the British left, Palestinians and Islam, I think. Make sure it is clear that the RfC deals only with JC post 2010, (From Pollard onwards?) and is limited to the topics in the question, ask users not to comment on any other areas or periods, as these are not in question.

I think you should write the opening statement this time, it should probably counter the spurious arguments: 1. IPSO regulation can not be used as evidence of reliability (citing Sun/Mail/Star). 2. The level of judgements and libels IS exceptional (citing Cathcart, especially his piece today which says that a daily title would be getting 6 breaches a month if it published false info at the same rate) 3. Something around IPSO's acknowledgement of problems at the JC requiring training and that letter, how to phrase that is difficult.

What do you think? Boynamedsue (talk) 14:15, 5 January 2022 (UTC)

User:Selfstudier/sandbox5 is good enough? I think the 2010 date is not important if we are very specific about what we are discussing. By opening statement, you mean the first "vote"? Selfstudier (talk) 15:46, 5 January 2022 (UTC)

Yes, the first vote. I think we need to limit it to post-20xx because I don't think it is demonstrable that it was unreliable prior to that. We got bogged down in "but you want to throw away 390 years of reliable coverage..." nonsense last time, if we limit it to very recent stuff we avoid that problem. I think, in all honesty, it was just very biased prior to 2008. It only started outright lying when Pollard took over. Boynamedsue (talk) 17:33, 5 January 2022 (UTC)

BTW, the question is good, we just need to agree on whether to limit the date Boynamedsue (talk) 18:10, 5 January 2022 (UTC)

I updated the sandbox (edit it if you want to). If I post after the RFC a "comment" and then you add your view that might be better.Selfstudier (talk) 18:15, 5 January 2022 (UTC)

Arab Israeli conflict

Sorry It is my mistake. As I am usual editor of ES Wiki, I was not aware of the difference. Thanks very much. Best Regards. JuanMRS (talk) 17:53, 19 December 2021 (UTC)

MOS:JOBTITLES

There are two equally valid ways to do this: "the representative" (lowercase) or "Representative" (uppercase). Good job supporting shitty uncommunicative edit-warring behavior, though! --JBL (talk) 14:06, 21 December 2021 (UTC)

Deprecation

Hi Self,

Just a bit confused at your deprecation comment. I don't use Counterpunch much, though I am very familiar with it. I can understand someone accepting the prior verdict, and then arguing for a stipulation for exceptions. Basically that was my view after the deprecation. But the original arguments for deprecation were not only disturbed by widespread manipulation by socks, but were wholly inadequate, based either on extreme cherrypicking to distort the picture of CP's coverage, or just running with the herd, voting on instinct or because editors apparently deplore non-mainstream venues or 'leftist' anythings. So I reconsidered, and my view now is that deprecation is such an extreme measure, dangerous because it can subordinate the crucial function by editors of reading a source, evaluating its quality, assessing the standing of its author to an automatic machinery of gutting that simply accepts a law that was formulated arbitrarily, in a process that was prejudiced. For that reason, I don't think, in the new RfC, that we should confirm the deprecation premise. It should fall under WP:Opinion, rather than WP:SPI I my view. Since you customarily reason in depth on talk pages, I'd be curious to know the reasons why you still consider Deprecation should stay as the default judgment. Cheers Nishidani (talk) 10:21, 14 January 2022 (UTC)

I phrased it like that deliberately so as to focus attention on the expert opinion aspect and in an attempt to avoid distractions like Swag's. If we are to have deprecation, an open question in my mind, then I think the same "exception" for expert opinions that applies for generally unreliable sources should apply for deprecated sources. Since no-one has argued for extending the exception in that way, this effectively turns my opinion into a "No". I have also assumed that if the result was "No" then the case would devolve to "generally unreliable", which I think no one is actually disputing. I expect there will be further discussions about deprecation. Selfstudier (talk) 10:50, 14 January 2022 (UTC)

Wouldn't it be simpler just to take it off the deprecation ballistically bombed blacklist first? I think 'generally unreliable' is better expressed by some rubric like 'to be used with caution'. I'm bemused by all of this hectic classificatory worrying because I rarely think in those terms, and fussiness about neat guidelines babysits inexperienced editors rather than cultivating their analytical talents. I just proceed by the criteria instilled in me in pre-wiki academic formation, to see good solid scholarship (in whatever venue) Wikipedia has to guide people from an enormously diversified backgrounds, many are not familiar with standard university level commonsense on source evaluation, which is far simpler:Look at the author's qualifications in a topic area, its encyclopedic value etc. If they are first-rate use them, regardless (most times) of where that material appeared. Deprecation means 'forget it', 'Don't even look', 'don't think about it', all things that cater to laziness and insouciance to learning how to exercise discriminating judgment.Nishidani (talk) 11:26, 14 January 2022 (UTC)

Looks like that will happen at this point. I agree that rules cannot substitute for judgement. V does not use the phrase "generally unreliable" (gunrel) it just refers to "questionable" sources and then points to WP:RS. Idk without going through all the archives, I suspect that what has happened over time is that RSN has "evolved" to it's current state, my understanding is that it used to be a space for commenting on concrete uses of a source but is now as well used for broad discussion about sources per se and is therefore susceptible on occasion to manipulation by socks and such. I think deprecation should in fact be equivalent with blacklisted and we don't actually need deprecated but if we end up keeping it, then there needs to be a formal guideline addressing its use and abuse (example, I don't think deprecation should be offered as a standard choice at RSN, there ought to be a prior process resulting in an up or down discussion such as we are having for CP).Selfstudier (talk) 11:48, 14 January 2022 (UTC)

Disambiguation link notification for January 19

An automated process has detected that when you recently edited Palestinian NGOs Network, you added a link pointing to the disambiguation page Breaking the Silence.

(Opt-out instructions.) --DPL bot (talk) 05:58, 19 January 2022 (UTC)

PE

Just to say thank you for stepping in to help at getting the PE article to GA. I have been busy IRL recently so have been using my wiki-time on much lighter topics which require less (or no) discussion. Onceinawhile (talk) 05:41, 23 January 2022 (UTC)

@Onceinawhile: Full marks to you for essaying a difficult topic, a wild ride but worth the effort in the end.Selfstudier (talk) 11:00, 23 January 2022 (UTC)

DYK for Palestinian enclaves

On 2 February 2022, Did you know was updated with a fact from the article Palestinian enclaves, which you recently created, substantially expanded, or brought to good article status. The fact was ... that the Palestinian enclaves in the West Bank (map pictured) constitute an "archipelago" of 165 islands? The nomination discussion and review may be seen at Template:Did you know nominations/Palestinian enclaves. You are welcome to check how many pageviews the nominated article or articles got while on the front page (here's how, Palestinian enclaves), and if they received a combined total of at least 416.7 views per hour (i.e., 5,000 views in 12 hours or 10,000 in 24), the hook may be added to the statistics page. Finally, if you know of an interesting fact from another recently created article, then please feel free to suggest it on the Did you know talk page.

 — Amakuru (talk) 12:02, 2 February 2022 (UTC)

1RR at Israel

Hi, you seem to have violated 1RR at Israel. Sir Joseph ^(talk) 15:44, 22 March 2022 (UTC)

@Sir Joseph: Could you point me to where? I made an edit today and my last edit before that was on 18th March? Selfstudier (talk) 15:55, 22 March 2022 (UTC)

Never mind, I think the page I was looking at was showing wrong dates. Sir Joseph ^(talk) 20:15, 22 March 2022 (UTC)

Please discuss this in talk first, thanks

Justification?--Vanlister (talk) 10:47, 29 March 2022 (UTC)

@Vanlister: You were reverted by another editor, who gave reasons for that, the correct procedure is then to discuss the edit not merely restore it. It is not compulsory to follow WP:BRD but it is a good idea when editing in a contentious area. Selfstudier (talk) 10:55, 29 March 2022 (UTC)

I have a right to 1 revert, and the correct procedure is to engage the discussion before reverting in group.--Vanlister (talk) 13:24, 29 March 2022 (UTC)

No, the correct procedure is when your change is challenged to get consensus for it, not revert and demand others discuss. nableezy - 15:13, 29 March 2022 (UTC)

Gross violation of POV

I also need to address how you grossly misrepresent sources, massively select oriented sources, and that, systematically without providing contradictory sources. Very often selecting specific quotes, that are then oriented and added in a text filled with critical stances. For neutrality I need dialecticism, or at least coherence in that mash-up. That was not part of my edit, which was essentially about intellectual honesty when you quote or present sources.--Vanlister (talk) 02:12, 30 March 2022 (UTC)

@Vanlister: What is this about? If you have some problem with my editing, please supply relevant diffs, no mention even of any particular article in the above speech. Selfstudier (talk) 09:35, 30 March 2022 (UTC)

Looks to me like an identical message to the one you sent to Nableezy, on the same date and with the same subject title. My response, referring to WP:No personal attacks, is also identical.     ←   ZScarpia   13:45, 10 May 2022 (UTC)

Vanlister blocked as NOTHERE in May. Doug Weller talk 10:18, 18 July 2022 (UTC)

Masafer Yatta

Considering a few of your recent edits on related pages, I'd encourage you to update the Masafer Yatta article while the eviction issue is still "fresh". Mooonswimmer 21:59, 9 May 2022 (UTC)

It's in mind, I did add an image after Nishidani edited the article. Given the nonsensical court decision, there will likely be further developments. Selfstudier (talk) 22:04, 9 May 2022 (UTC)

Restoring garbage sources

Please refrain from restoring material sourced to self published vanity press sources as you did here. Please familiarize yourself with Wikipedia's policy WP:RS. Volunteer Marek 12:09, 29 May 2022 (UTC)

@Volunteer Marek: Perhaps you should check your facts. In the first place, even if it was a vanity press, Colborne is a recognized expert on the subject whose attributed views can stand even if published on a blog or on twitter. Secondly, had you bothered to actually check instead of engaging in your usual POV editing then you would have discovered that the book is published by ibidem Press. Selfstudier (talk) 12:21, 29 May 2022 (UTC)

Aqsa

Thanks for your comment at the RM. I understand your position on the wider TM question, but I really think this Aqsa question needs resolving separately. It has been a problem for 20 years, causing mass confusion. If you have time, I would be really grateful if you could look into the sources and provide your view on the RM. Onceinawhile (talk) Onceinawhile (talk) 13:49, 31 May 2022 (UTC)

Abu Akleh's DYK

Hi Selfstudier, your contributions to Akleh's DYK have been so valuable to the point that Alt5 was suggested in light of your insightful comment. Mhhossein ^talk 12:25, 5 July 2022 (UTC)

ANI

There is currently a discussion at Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents regarding an issue with which you may have been involved. The thread is User:Selfstudier. Thank you. Triggerhippie4 (talk) 03:04, 14 July 2022 (UTC)

Continued a-I violations despite your alert

[27] Doug Weller talk 12:47, 29 July 2022 (UTC)

@Doug Weller: They are qualified now. So no violation on a quick look, some specific edit in mind? Selfstudier (talk) 12:56, 29 July 2022 (UTC)

See the reverts I made. Doug Weller talk 13:37, 29 July 2022 (UTC)

@Doug Weller: Qasr al-Yahud, they asked for a cn and you provided one, that's not a revert. The Tomb of Samuel is similar, although I didn't like the edit summary that much, nothing serious there, not really a revert either. The third case I agree, they overstated the case there. Still, the sum total here is not exactly an AI violation, is it? If there was evidence of "overstating the case" time after time, then yes but is there any such evidence? Selfstudier (talk) 13:50, 29 July 2022 (UTC)

If you look again, they keep removing something like "located in Area A" from articles. Doug Weller talk 14:01, 29 July 2022 (UTC)

@Doug Weller: I left them a note about that on their talk. Selfstudier (talk) 14:14, 29 July 2022 (UTC)

Thanks. Doug Weller talk 08:20, 30 July 2022 (UTC)

Operation Breaking Dawn

Several other groups like Al-Aqsa Martyrs Brigades and DFLP have declared they launched rockets, the operation page only mentions PIJ. The groups even published videos. See (https://twitter.com/JoeTruzman/status/1555938334072901632?s=20), the thread documents the ongping conflict in detail. 61.1.21.182 (talk) 11:20, 7 August 2022 (UTC)

Please bring any edit request to the article talk page, thank you. Selfstudier (talk) 14:42, 7 August 2022 (UTC)

August 2022

Please stop attacking other editors, as you did on User talk:Iskandar323. If you continue, you may be blocked from editing. Comment on content, not on other contributors or people. In this post. PrisonerB (talk) 14:56, 8 August 2022 (UTC)

@PrisonerB: Care to explain how that is an attack? I'll wait. And why are you even involved? Selfstudier (talk) 15:01, 8 August 2022 (UTC)

You called a named editor "A pale imitation", that's a negative statement on that editor. An editor that has been editing an article we're jointly editing. PrisonerB (talk) 15:07, 8 August 2022 (UTC)

Well, you are entitled to your opinion, I don't share it. Do you have Iskandar's talk page on your watch list? Selfstudier (talk) 15:14, 8 August 2022 (UTC)

Reply Revert

Is there a reason you reverted my reply? I may have inadvertently broken a rule, if so please let me know. Church turing thesis (talk) 22:30, 24 August 2022 (UTC)

Change pushpin map

Hey, do you know where I can edit the Israel pushpin map?

For example at the Jerusalem article it shows the "Israel relief location map" when it says "Israel" after "pushpin_map" in the infobox, how do I change this? Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 05:06, 29 August 2022 (UTC)

Hi, @Supreme Deliciousness:, not sure what it is you wish to change exactly, Template:Infobox settlement#Maps, coordinates has all the various parameters, the relief parameter is specified at Template:Location map#Relief parameter, the images used including the relief map are at Module:Location map/data/Israel. Selfstudier (talk) 10:05, 29 August 2022 (UTC)

If you look at the Jerusalem article, it uses this map:[28] as the location map, I want to change it to this:[29] how do I do that? --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 06:56, 31 August 2022 (UTC)

@Supreme Deliciousness: I edited the infobox and deleted "1" in pushpin relief parameter, is that what you wanted? Selfstudier (talk) 09:43, 31 August 2022 (UTC)

Yes, that's good. --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 10:39, 31 August 2022 (UTC)

Balfour Declaration

Hello
I edited this phrase "the founding document of Mandatory Palestine, which later became Israel and the Palestinian territories" recently, which you reverted with the edit summary "Not an improvement, "became divided between" (ugh) and there was no "division" anyway".
If the form of words was problematic, please feel free to suggest an alternative, but the existing sentence needs improving, as it is misleading/plain wrong as it stands. Mandatory Palestine did not 'become' anything, in the way that (perhaps) the French Republic 'became' the first French Empire, or the Thirteen Colonies 'became' the United States; Mandatory Palestine was split between two mutually antagonistic polities, in the way that British India was split into the new states of India and Pakistan.
But "there was no "division" anyway"? The UN Partition plan in 1947 clearly divided the territory de jure into two separate states; and the 1948 ceasefire similarly divided it de facto into separate bodies (Israel on the one hand, Gaza and the West Bank on the other). In what way was there "no division anyway"? Moonraker12 (talk) 19:28, 31 August 2022 (UTC)

@Moonraker12: Please raise your concerns at the article talk page so that interested editors may respond. Selfstudier (talk) 21:34, 31 August 2022 (UTC)

Fair enough: As you made the comment, it seemed reasonable to ask you what you meant by it (and to expect an answer) but if you want it on the article talk page I’ve posted this, there. Moonraker12 (talk) 18:43, 3 September 2022 (UTC)

Arbitration vs Administrators' Noticeboard/Incidents (ANI)

I'm pretty sure you're meant to start with an ANI discussion as opposed to an Arbitration discussion. Arbitration is much more serious than ANI. It's practically like the Supreme Court of Wikipedia, whereas ANI is like the local court. As such, I believe that you've made a serious blunder, and the fact that you've escalated to Arbitration rather than ANI right from the outset is probably going to heavily diminish your chances of having any success at prosecuting me. Jargo Nautilus (talk) 17:51, 16 September 2022 (UTC)

Please obverse WP:DRC, etc.

Selfstudier, please observe the general ethos of WP:DRC, etc. I see that Jargo Nautilus asked you to not post on their talk page (diff), which you ignored (diff), and then ignored again by restoring the comment (diff). Please don't do that again. Thanks. El_C 01:11, 17 September 2022 (UTC)

@El C: OK, I have been operating under the assumption that I am required to discuss issues at a user talk page before undertaking any formal dispute resolution. If that is not required once a user has asked for no further comments, that's fine, there will be no recurrence. For the sake of good order, your last diff is not my restoring a prior comment (I have not done that at all) that is my giving the required notification of the AE proceedings, I do have to give that one, regardless, right? Selfstudier (talk) 10:50, 17 September 2022 (UTC)

Right, sorry, I stand corrected, the 3rd one was indeed the AE notice. But, no, you were not required to issue it then, since the user in question had already responded there. When that happens, just make a note that they were already aware of the complaint before you had a chance to issue the notice. As an aside, I wish you'd use anything but blank edit summaries, though I realize all the cool kids are doing it. But still, why not be rebellious and write words? Words such as, I dunno, reply or AE notice! El_C 12:24, 17 September 2022 (UTC)

Sorry for my mistake

My apologies, I was not aware of that. Thank you for pointing it out! My personal opinion is that it is ridiculous (not you, the ArbCom decision there), and I would love to see it overturned. It contradicts this norm for RfCs and goes against the spirit of Wikipedia. But oh well, for now at least, it is what it is. Thank you for your contributions. GrammarDamner how are things? 18:13, 20 September 2022 (UTC)

The measure was introduced to cut down the incidence of sockpuppetry, which, among others, plagued the ARBPIA area. My guess it that it will stay in place until sockpuppetry is no longer much of a problem in the area or until it can be shown that it causes more harm than good. Given some rather spectacular cases of sockpuppetry uncovered in the last year I doubt there would be much support for revocation. It does go against the ethos that Wikipedia is the encyclopaedia that "anyone" can edit. Unfortunately, though, there are those unscrupulous enough to include banned editors among the "anyone", and those who think that the "ends justifies the means" covers misusing multiple accounts to edit.     ←   ZScarpia   15:58, 21 September 2022 (UTC)

Comment on History of Israel/Palestine

Commenting here, since it really has nothing to do with the proposal. You said "this article (History of Israel) has a Jewish focus (says so right at the top) whereas the Palestine article is a history with no focus on any particular group". For the first part, we already have a History of the Jews and Judaism in the Land of Israel and for the second, the History of Palestine article, while no focusing on any group throughout most of the history, from 1948 onwards touches only the modern Palestinians.--Bolter21 (talk to me) 08:56, 27 September 2022 (UTC)

There are two problems that arise in attempting to present a joint history: A) what to call it? Since NPOV proves rather elusive when it comes to naming terms for the region, and B) how to reconcile the competing Israeli and Palestinian narratives. Israeli foci tend to include the iron age kingdoms and Jewish resistance narratives in the Greek and Roman periods and then Zionism, while largely ignoring the 1,400 years of Islamic history. I'm not sure if Palestinian narratives have a similar set of foci, but the ancient Canaanite as well as Islamic history receives greater emphasis. In any case, there are two articles precisely because reconciliation attempts have failed. Iskandar323 (talk) 09:20, 27 September 2022 (UTC)

Iskandar323 I agree. The last discussion towards that matter completely exhausted us, and I find it too difficult for volunteers like us behind screens to be able to execute serious solutions. I would argue for "History of Palestine and Israel", but I have received threats on my email just for the suggestion last time I made it. These topics are simply too big to handle and it may take months of constant work to get something good enough. With that said, it seems important to float this issue every now and then since it can't be ignored. But there are so many things that need reconciliation. The Kingdom of Israel and Kingdom of Judah articles for example are also a mess, mixing up biblical, historical, and archaeological data. Man, that's difficult. We are unmanned and unequipped for these tasks. But I still find it important to float these matters.--Bolter21 (talk to me) 11:30, 27 September 2022 (UTC)

The distinction between History of Israel (with a Jewish focus) and History of the Jews and Judaism in the Land of Israel continues to escape me, the latter appears more relevant. I don't really regard post 48 as "history" but I don't object to the History of Palestine including explanatory summary material on this out to other articles, Israel, State of Palestine nor do I object if the modern history of Israel split includes a summary of Zionism/Balfour, Mandate and all that as context. But there is one area where I expect we will never agree, I do not agree that "Israel" can usurp "Palestine" (I phrase it like that for convenience) merely because of a supposed ancient history ("historical connection" of Jews) when there are 1500 more recent years where Israel did not exist and Jews were in a minority. Selfstudier (talk) 11:51, 27 September 2022 (UTC)

As I've said, I would argue in principle for "History of Palestine and Israel". This is a question of the motives behind the usage of the terms. For me, the reason to include both is that they can be understood in various manners - History of what is today Israel and Palestine, as well as the history of what was in the past Israel and Palestine. In that case, "Israel" and "Palestine" are merely just terms that exist in the minds of modern people. In the academic sphere in Israel, it is understood that "Palestine" is simply a foreign name for "Eretz-Yisrael", and that using either means the same thing. It has been popularized in recent decades that "Palestine" is supposedly an Antisemitic title, and that "Israel" is the only "true" title. This is part of the umbrella of bigoted arguments about Palestinians being a made-up people as part of an Antisemitic conspiracy, which is an appalling stance, even to patriotic Israelis. It is pretty obvious, that throughout the absolute majority of history, the people who lived there, didn't see themselves as residents of either "Israel" or "Palestine". These two labels serve only as generalizations, and in history, they both exceed the modern territories of Israel and Palestine, into Transjordan and Southern Lebanon, as well as infiltrating neighoring regions such as the deserts to the south or the Lebanese and Syrian regions. The history of that region is part of the history of a broader region of the Levant, as well as history of the entire eastern Mediterranean network and the Near East as a whole. So I don't care much which label userp the other. Once going deep into the topics of history, the collective label for these ~30,000 square km of land is irrelevant. In hisoreography, Palestine is the most common. In respect to the current inhabitants of the land and the political turmoil, Israel, which is used by Jewish historians, goes second. I would've gladly included "Holy Land" but that would be too much. This is a minority opinion, of course.--Bolter21 (talk to me) 13:33, 27 September 2022 (UTC)

the people who lived there, didn't see themselves as residents of either "Israel" or "Palestine".

That is true of peoples in every state, nation or politically unified area since the year dot. When Napoleon formed his army, it took decades for conscripts and volunteers to get a thorough handle on their new 'French identity', since they often spoke mutually unintelligible dialects. Historically national identity is a very recent thing, and Israel/Palestine is no exception. This does not stop historians from talking about Italy, France, Germany and Spain while describing the deep past in those areas. The same applies to Palestine. To replace that with Israel is extremely confusing: it jams in a term that had primarily religious currency as it now has political currency.

If anyone can find any historical work in the last five hundred years describing that area for the historical period of 0-1948 as anything other than Palestine, or rather a book that consistently describes those millennia's events as taking place in 'Israel', I'd be fascinated to hear of it. When Maimonides visited the area, he only wrote of walking 'in the House of God', not, as far as I recall, Eretz Israel, while narrative historians invariably describe his journey as one to Palestine. There is simply no other way of describing things like that other than to write 'Palestine', and, in scholarship, there is no embarrassment over this. This is not ideological. That has been for centuries the default term for the pre-Biblical area and for its history for two millennia. The profound unease over this standard historically ingrained default use of the word 'Palestine' arises, overwhelmingly, from the rise of Israeli national self-consciousness as the obverse of that of the Palestinians, and it is a parochial obsession. Of course this inflects foreign sensitivities now to the politics of the area, but the result is still crass. The 'history of Israel' is a misnomer if it tries to imitate and then replace the 'history of Palestine' for those reasons.Nishidani (talk) 13:56, 27 September 2022 (UTC)

Selfstudier, didn't expect this comment to turn into a forum on your talkpage. If that's a problem we'll move it somewhere else.

Nishidani Let's please not forget there is a country over most of Palestine called Israel.

As you wish, to start there's an entire journal named Israel Exploration Journal.

Some books:

The Making of Eretz Israel in the Modern Era A Historical-Geographical Study (1799–1949) Yehoshua Ben-Arieh

Come to the Land: Immigration and Settlement in 16th-Century Eretz-Israel Abraham David

Weaving in Stones: Garments and Their Accessories in the Mosaic Art of Eretz Israel in Late Antiquity Aliza Steinberg

Greece and Rome in Eretz Israel: Collected essays

Worshipping the gods : art and cult in Roman Eretz Israel / Asher Ovadiah and Sonia Mucznik.

City Coins of Eretz-Israel and the Decapolis in the Roman Period Ya'Akov Meshorer

Art in Eretz Israel in Late Antiquity Collectanea Sonia Mucznik; Asher Ovadiah; Yehudit Turnheim

Tabula Imperii Romani. Iudaea, Palaestina : Eretz Israel in the Hellenistic, Roman and Byzantine periods : maps and gazetteer

[Aryeh Kasher Jews, Idumaeans, and Ancient Arabs Relations of the Jews in Eretz-Israel with the Nations of the Frontier and the Desert during the Hellenistic Roman Era (332 BCE-70 BE)]

Some articles:

Children in Need: Evidence for a Children’s Cult from the Roman Temple of Omrit in Northern Israel, Erlich, Adi.

Climate variability in early expansions of Homo sapiens in light of the new record of micromammals in Misliya Cave, Israel Lior Weissbrod

OK, that's enough, I have no desire to continue this convo, it will serve no useful purpose.Selfstudier (talk) 18:42, 27 September 2022 (UTC)

POV pushing

Pov pushing to claim that Russia's occupation have ended continues. Panam2014 (talk) 16:36, 1 October 2022 (UTC)

Disambiguation link notification for October 27

An automated process has detected that when you recently edited Lions' Den, you added a link pointing to the disambiguation page Lion's Den.

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Some baklava for you!

For your consistent and diligent work on the Timeline of the Israeli–Palestinian conflict in 2022 article . Mooonswimmer 17:02, 30 October 2022 (UTC)

Bro do you believe Palestinians are Arabs from Arabia?

And are not natives? Are you a Zionist? 108.41.93.13 (talk) 19:51, 13 November 2022 (UTC)

yes he is 142.54.9.83 (talk) 17:59, 25 April 2023 (UTC)

As much as I would love to know @Selfstudier's opinions and stances on the conflict (*wink*, *nudge*), I have to say: please don't speak for others. 38.23.187.20 (talk) 01:08, 11 October 2023 (UTC)

Stfu 80.112.169.138 (talk) 09:17, 9 March 2024 (UTC)

Stop erasing posts

you have erased two of my posts, please cease you are violating wikipedia rules.68.188.119.171 (talk) 13:28, 17 November 2022 (UTC)

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Stop Contradicting Al-Husseini's Tour of Trebbin Concentration Camp

You are repeatedly denying that al-Husseini toured Trebbin Concentration Camp despite the photographic evidence and also denying that academic citations calling for a reappraisal of his role in the events surrounding the Holocaust. Furthermore you continue to oppose any view which is not directly linked to his own biased memoirs written to sugar-coat his career. WP:Don't_be_a_WikiBigot Please cease and desist. Ethnopunk (talk) 08:34, 12 December 2022 (UTC)

In case the ping didn't work: WP:ANI#Personal_attack_by_user_Ethnopunk. Zero^talk 10:26, 12 December 2022 (UTC)

Alo,allo,allo! 'Cease and desist'. That funny phrase rings a 'distant bell' (I can hear Frank Ifield yodeling 'I Remember' . .) persistently thrown my way by a certain editwarrior years back.Nishidani (talk) 13:07, 12 December 2022 (UTC)

Just to put the record straight (how do you play a bent record?), there was another niggling memory rung there, and,in a fit of distraction, it came back to me today. The line by Wang Wei that runs 疏鐘聞夜猿 (shū zhōng wén yè yuán), beautifully captured in G.W. Robinson's rendering - 'the distant bell and the monkeys' nocturne', which fits the present context better.:)Nishidani (talk) 15:17, 17 December 2022 (UTC)

Blindly reverting

The edit summary in revert ("Kfar Ruth is not in Israel" is of course correct, but entirely irrelevant as the article did not say that it was located in Israel (the short description said "Moshav in the Latrun salient" and the article stated "Kfar Ruth is an Israeli moshav located near Modi'in in the Latrun salient of the Green Line." Please undo your revert. Thanks, Number 57 12:28, 18 December 2022 (UTC)

@Number57: Reply on Kfar Ruth talk page, the proper place for this discussion. Selfstudier (talk) 12:45, 18 December 2022 (UTC)

Stop reverting other post. The UNHRC reached consensus on the change.98.186.29.6 (talk) 16:25, 29 December 2022 (UTC)

I told you to stop reverting. You are violating Wikipidea rules.98.186.29.6 (talk)

Stop reverting other people edits. You are vadlizating wikpedia

I love Freudian-slippery neologisms, like 'vadlizating'. Perhaps it means 'Dearth(sic)Vaderalizing'? Nishidani (talk) 15:14, 31 December 2022 (UTC)

An expression of appreciation

I simply wanted to express my appreciation towards you for the way that you handled the dispute between us yesterday. At first, I thought that you contended with me out of an attitude of spite, but as our conversation developed, it became clear to me that you did not do so out of spite at all, but out of a sincere concern that I should not have commented on the RFC in the way that I did. And while I sincerely believed that I was in the right, owing to the communications that I received earlier, I never once thought that I was unassailable, knowing that I have made in my lifetime many mistakes. I never meant to come across as intransigent, but simply wanted to receive another opinion from an administrator and which, in the end, I received. I wish to assure you that I hold no ill-feelings nor grievance against you. In the end, we are all trying our best to improve this online encyclopedia. Be well.Davidbena (talk) 14:07, 1 January 2023 (UTC)

Disambiguation link notification for January 15

An automated process has detected that when you recently edited Timeline of the Israeli–Palestinian conflict in 2023, you added a link pointing to the disambiguation page Jaba.

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Reply to Introduction to contentious topics

Hi Selfstudier, I actually meant to write to you and ask you: Why did you tag the List of de facto autonomous states and areas article that I've been creating as part of the Arab-Israeli conflict? It is a list of more than 200 countries and territories around the world and tries to be as little political as possible. Israel and Palestine is a very tiny part of it. I also was going to tell you that you seem to be interested in the topic of states and autonomous areas etc. May be we could cooperate? --Universal Life (talk) 18:59, 21 January 2023 (UTC)

There are two notices, one where the entire article is AI related and the other where only part is related, in this case the parts relating to Palestine and Israel specifically, which have caused problems in many List articles. I won't make a judgement now but I have the sense that the page is likely to give rise to some issues (not just the AI part where I have some issues that I will raise once the "in creation" tag is removed). Selfstudier (talk) 19:16, 21 January 2023 (UTC)

Could you give me some hints, so that I might better the article, before removing the tag? I have intentions to grow and better the article, I could really use some advice. Should I add a lot of references before removing the "in creation" tag? And that would take some time and I don't think I could keep that tag long enough to add enough references. Is the goal of the article (my intention in creating the page) articulated well and clear enough? Right now, it is just a draft. And I want it to contain just enough political information to understand the present situation, not too much of it; I wouldn't want it to be drown with politics. I find the idea of a list of all inhabited areas of the world, differing in degree of autonomy very appealing. I'm guessing one of the problems you're thinking is some of the capitals I wrote. But again, if country X is governed from the city Y, "city Y" is the capital of "country X" no matter what the rest of the world authorities say. If 120 countries come together and declare that 2+2=5, should we just accept that? Anyways, hoping to hear from you. Thank you very much in advance :) --Universal Life (talk) 20:26, 21 January 2023 (UTC)

@Universal Life: I suggest this discussion continues at the article talk page rather than at your talk page and now duplicated at my talk page. Selfstudier (talk) 11:38, 22 January 2023 (UTC)

edit notices

Do you know how to add edit notices with the new skin? I no longer see the red link "page notice" when I edit the page. Zero^talk 12:50, 23 January 2023 (UTC)

Weird, I added it to one the other day. Can you see the redlink here? Selfstudier (talk) 13:03, 23 January 2023 (UTC)

I found that the red link disappears when I enable "New Wikitext Mode" at Preferences->Beta Features (and flush the cache). Zero^talk 11:23, 24 January 2023 (UTC)

Ah, I won't be enabling that then. Selfstudier (talk) 11:36, 24 January 2023 (UTC)

Expressions

The discussions are driven by mostly sympathetic users to this terrorist activity so no matter how much these discussion plough on they achieve not other purpose than to support terrorism, let me pose to you a question if someone guns down and murders seven innocent worshippers in a synagogue, is he not a terrorist? That edit is not a POV it is a fact. Cease and desist from your plans to edit/revert such a text that would lead to such support of terrorist activity. Salandarianflag (talk) 19:02, 28 January 2023 (UTC) Salandarianflag (talk) 19:05, 28 January 2023 (UTC)

I started this discussion at your talk page and will continue it there if you don't mind. Selfstudier (talk) 19:07, 28 January 2023 (UTC)

I have provided you with two very credible non Israeli media sources. 1) https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/jan/27/seven-israelis-killed-leaving-synagogue-in-east-jerusalem 2) https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2023/01/27/five-israelis-shot-dead-east-jerusalem-terror-attack/ Salandarianflag (talk) 19:51, 28 January 2023 (UTC)

Quoted directly from the guardian ‘ Friday night’s shooting was the worst terrorist attack on Israelis in years’ Salandarianflag (talk) 19:51, 28 January 2023 (UTC)

You can try and shut down the conversation but I have provided you with the wide spectrum of credible sources with the telegraph and the guardian. I think it is absolutely clear that I am in the right on this one. It is definitely a terrorist attack, not a POV and have these news sources from all sides of the journalistic spectrum to back it up. Salandarianflag (talk) 19:56, 28 January 2023 (UTC)

Replied at your talk page already, idk why are you are duplicating your replies here. Selfstudier (talk) 20:01, 28 January 2023 (UTC)

Double escalation

You (presumably inadvertently) doubled the "dangerous escalation" in the lead with this edit. Iskandar323 (talk) 11:51, 30 January 2023 (UTC)

Fixed that, tks for headsup. Selfstudier (talk) 11:56, 30 January 2023 (UTC)

Introduction to contentious topics

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Selfstudier (talk) 12:36, 16 February 2023 (UTC) (copy pasted here by someone else)

Hi

Although I vehemently disagreed with you earlier today (and I still do...), I'd like to apologize if something I said was understood as being uncivil or a personal attack. You're one of the editors I respect greatly over here, and I don't want that to change due to a disagreement. The ⬡ Bestagon ^T/_C 13:31, 27 February 2023 (UTC)

Np, Iskandar has created the necessary article. As I said to him, perspective is necessary, see https://dawnmena.org/they-want-to-create-new-facts-on-the-ground-why-settler-violence-is-rising-in-the-west-bank/ Selfstudier (talk) 13:39, 27 February 2023 (UTC)

Extended confirmed required to participate in RfCs?

Hi, I can see you’ve struck several RfC responses on Talk:Israel due to the user not being extended confirmed (500/30). I am trying to understand why the exemption on constructive talk page comments does not apply. Is there a rule somewhere about that exception not applying in the case of RfCs? Barnards.tar.gz (talk) 17:49, 29 March 2023 (UTC)

Here Selfstudier (talk) 18:26, 29 March 2023 (UTC)

archiving

plz stop, youre moving everything to the wrong archive like this. set up a bot to do it correctly instead. nableezy - 05:28, 3 April 2023 (UTC)

Didn't realize the archive script did it incorrectly. I have been using it for a while to clean up pages with lengthy really old discussions. I'll stop using it. Selfstudier (talk) 05:34, 3 April 2023 (UTC)

ty, and its best to just set up the bot to archive it for you anyway. makes the watchlist way easier to manage as well, as each time you clicked adds an edit. nableezy - 05:35, 3 April 2023 (UTC)

Harassment

Don't post in my talk page again, a quick look at your edit history shows the kind of character you are. Now, move on. Phagopsych (talk) 06:41, 4 April 2023 (UTC)

For passersby, this refers to this diff and #Introduction to contentious topics copy paste (with my signature) to this talk page of my earlier standard edit at this user's talk page. Any harassment here is from @Phagopsych: only.Selfstudier (talk) 07:39, 4 April 2023 (UTC)

You are clearly the one who is in the wrong here @Selfstudier look at your logs, i'm on a shared account and mine arent even that bad

Yours on the otherhand

Harassment

Stop erasing posts

pov pushing

restoring garbege sources

edit warring

other accounts

false edit summaries 142.54.9.83 (talk) 17:56, 25 April 2023 (UTC)

oh and a-i violations ban notice 142.54.9.83 (talk) 17:58, 25 April 2023 (UTC)

Israel and apartheid lead image

Per MOS:LEADIMAGE there's no requirement that the lead section should have mention on image, lead image should be representative. The barrier is mentioned in article. In my opinion the barrier is the most representative image about the article. Hddty (talk) 14:21, 4 April 2023 (UTC)

@Hddty: This discussion should be on the article talk page, right? Selfstudier (talk) 14:27, 4 April 2023 (UTC)

Create article

Two Israeli women in their 20s were killed and their 45-year-old mother critically injured in a shooting attack on a car near the settlement of Hamra in the northern West Bank. The women, British citizens who had emigrated to Israel, were residents of the Efrat settlement. An article needs to be written on this attack, evaluate yourself if necessary, but it would be a duty.— Preceding unsigned comment added by Peter39c (talk • contribs) 20:24, 9 April 2023 (UTC)

References

Adding automatic archiving

Hey! Thanks for adding automatic archiving to talk pages to help clear them up. When adding automatic archiving with the {{User:MiszaBot/config}} template, keep in mind that the |counter= parameter may need changing. This controls what index the bot will archive at. This should ideally be set to either the latest current archive or 1 if there isn't any. Not doing so can cause {{Archivebox}} and other templates to fail to list these archives, among other things, since they aren't in the expected order (E.g. this wouldn't get picked up). I've fixed any existing incorrect cases already, so don't worry about going back to fix any. Aidan9382 _(talk) 09:13, 12 April 2023 (UTC)

@Aidan9382: I didn't realize, thanks for letting me know. Selfstudier (talk) 10:50, 12 April 2023 (UTC)