User talk:Refsworldlee/archive09

Archives
2 January – 14 April 2007 15 April – 22 July 2007 23 July – 23 October 2007 24 October 2007 – 17 January 2008 18 January – 10 April 2008 13 April 2008 – 29 July 2017 21 August 2017 – 26 February 2019 26 March 2019 – 18 September 2021 25 September 2021 – 15 June 2024

"Improper use"

{{Added}}, et al., "is used inline, usually at the beginning of a talk or comment." Thank you. Wyliepedia @ 18:14, 25 September 2021 (UTC)

"Usually" is usually. And thank you. Ref ^(chew)(do) 21:14, 25 September 2021 (UTC)

Transliteration

Dear Refsworldlee, please, see Romanization of Ukrainian, where "Г" is transliterating as "h" and "Ґ" as "g". But if you using, for example, google translate, you all time will have transliteration as "g" in the names or surnames, city names etc., because Russian language not have the letter "Ґ" and its letter "Г" corresponds to sound "g". Why I wrote about Russian , if it's about Ukrainian surname? Because google translate is translating from Ukrainian to Russian and after - from Russian into English, for these reasons impossible to have "h" in English translation. I see, that often this mistake is repeated. For example, common Eastern Slavic name "Богдан" for Ukrainian is romanized as "Bohdan", but for Russians - "Bogdan" (it's pronouncing also differently). Please, leaves him as "Hadenko", because he hadn't a Russian passport--Noel baran (talk) 11:10, 3 December 2021 (UTC)

Okay, thank you for the explanation. Ref ^(chew)(do) 11:11, 3 December 2021 (UTC)

Thank you. --Noel baran (talk) 11:16, 3 December 2021 (UTC)

Thank you re Deaths in 2022

Thank you for making amendments to the lists of deaths in 2022. I would imagine that the list gets quite a lot of viewings from people like me, who have an obsession with people who have recently died, so your help is appreciated! YTKJ (talk) 21:43, 1 May 2022 (UTC)

I too probably have a bit of an obsession with those notable people who have died - I would say mine is complete admiration for what they managed to achieve in their lives, though we also get our fair share of dead murderers too, so not all good! Thanks for the post. Ref ^(chew)(do) 23:12, 1 May 2022 (UTC)

Thank you from me, as well – I don't really know what I was thinking here, since I did check several of the references in the article itself and should have been able to pick a reliable one that's also freely accessible. (I have had access to the NYT for some years, but it's not like I don't know it's behind a paywall!) --bonadea contributions talk 08:40, 19 May 2022 (UTC)

No problem. I do have a reputation as a paywall avoider, and often go through previous months Deaths lists checking to see if we can get any more off paywall. Seems to work, as there are very few paywalled sources left in recent months and years. Thanks for the message. Ref ^(chew)(do) 09:02, 19 May 2022 (UTC)

Deaths in 2022

Hi Refsworldlee,

I noticed you removed the Kajetan Migdal entry from "Deaths in 2022". He was a British actor and he died on May 28. I am just wondering why the entry was removed. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Andymcteddybear (talk • contribs) 13:18, 24 June 2022 (UTC)

The entry as it stood then did not establish his notability as an actor, and it had an issue with the formatting of the source in the entry too. When I researched his name, there was nothing of note in his resume (one short film in 2016, Be Nice (This Christmas), and nothing else that I could find). As of his death he was still a Year 13 student at The Saint John Henry Newman Catholic School in Stevenage, so not practising as an actor full-time. And, like so many unfortunates of his age who are victims of knife crime, he has become mainly notable through dying, not through deeds during life (and another addition to the statistics, sadly). My reasoning was clear in the edit summary about that particular aspect, but I did not make it clear enough that I believed his repertoire was so slim as to throw doubt on his ever getting an article, let alone within the next four days, when his redlink would disappear anyway. Revisiting his achievements in deeper internet searches, I'm still not getting enough, and the fact that he has died means there is no prospect of him building an acting notability over and above his one film and his activities (I notice) in street dance and freestyle dance. Thanks for the message. Ref ^(chew)(do) 13:46, 24 June 2022 (UTC)

Thank you so much for your clear explanation. Having researched his name again, I agree entirely with your reasoning that his achievements up to the date of his death do not make him notable. Indeed, it would have been difficult to get adequate information to write an article of encyclopedic value about him.

Thanks again. Andymcteddybear (talk) 06:33, 25 June 2022 (UTC)

The

Phone has that guess the word thingy when typing, didn't realize I fatfingered onto it lol Rusted AutoParts 01:28, 13 November 2022 (UTC)

No worries. Call it "The" end. :-) Ref ^(chew)(do) 06:35, 13 November 2022 (UTC)

British vs Scottish / English

Hi @Refsworldlee:, I'm sure as a Brit, I don't need to explain to you that "British" is as much (if not more as it also includes citizenship) of a "nationality" as Scottish or English. And yet your original reason for changing @Ghmyrtle:'s entry of Shel Macrae from "British" to "Scottish" was "band article confirms his individual nationality". The subject in question was indeed Scottish-born, but most of his life was lived and worked in England, where he settled, raised a family and died. "British" is therefore a more appropriate description here. You are quite correct to say this has been discussed at length before, and there was not much consensus other than we look at things on a case by case basis. When a subject strictly identifies as Scottish/Welsh/English only, we respect those wishes on here. When a subject's career or life has largely only featured one of the countries of the UK, e.g. a member of the Welsh Assembly, it would be far more appropriate to describe them according to that specific country of the UK. However, when their birth is a stand alone chapter if their bio, British is far more appropriate. For example, Gordon Ramsay is not described as "Scottish" in the opening paragraph of his page, even though he was born there. If you wish to keep fighting this, I'm happy to open a discussion on the Deaths in 2022 talk page, but I am really struggling to see what your argument is. Thanks Jkaharper (talk) 12:05, 29 November 2022 (UTC)

I fully agree with Jkaharper. The default position is to describe UK people as British. If someone represents one of the constituent countries (e.g. in a sporting contest), or is a member of one of the devolved assemblies, or explicitly defines themselves as "Welsh", "Scottish", etc., then we use those designations. But, birthplace alone is not a defining factor. Ghmyrtle (talk) 12:20, 29 November 2022 (UTC)

Accepted without argument. Ref ^(chew)(do) 12:56, 29 November 2022 (UTC)

Bettye Swann

There does still seem to be some doubt over this - the source has changed its wording to insert "reportedly". We should be cautious. Ghmyrtle (talk) 22:34, 22 February 2023 (UTC)

Thanks for pointing that out. I've re-read the source content, and have removed the January 25th entry for Bettye Swann for now, until there is some kind of confirmation of her passing. Ref ^(chew)(do) 00:34, 23 February 2023 (UTC)

Care Failure

Thanks for flagging Care Failure's "known name" in the Deaths in 2023 article.

Curious, however, as to why her death date is 26 March -- nowhere in the linked obit does it flag the day, and secondary sources reporting on her death (e.g. Yahoo News) don't provide a date. Shall we move her entry to 30 March (the day the TorStar obit was published)? 514Charlie (talk) 10:59, 3 April 2023 (UTC)

Never mind; dug into the edit history and found the funeral home listing with the correct dates. 514Charlie (talk) 11:19, 3 April 2023 (UTC)

I was pretty sure there had been confirmation of Care's passing on the 26th, so did not move it after deleting the "duplicate". Thanks for the message. Best wishes. Ref ^(chew)(do) 15:18, 3 April 2023 (UTC)

Concerning Bhante Vimalaramsi

Hi, you recently removed the Bhante Vimalaramsi entry from Deaths in 2023 due to finding YouTube an unreliable source. While that is the case in a lot of situations, in this case, it came from Bhante's official YouTube channel for his monastery. 1TWO3Writer (talk) 00:05, 28 June 2023 (UTC)

Please see Talk:Deaths in June 2023#Bhante Vimalaramsi for further discussion on this. Thanks. Ref ^(chew)(do) 07:22, 28 June 2023 (UTC)

A reliable source has now been found and the subject has been restored to the list. Ref ^(chew)(do) 09:38, 3 July 2023 (UTC)

Paywalled refs

Thank you for your work in replacing references behind paywalls with ones which anyone can read. It's a rather thankless task, which has some value. However, as per your edit on Sir Patrick Garland today, you may not be aware that The Telegraph changed its arrangements a month or two back, so that such notices are no longer behind a paywall. I am not a Telegraph subscriber and just clicked on https://announcements.telegraph.co.uk. There is no reason to change your edit back - your source is at least as good - and similar notices at The Times ARE still behind a paywall. Rcb1 (talk) 15:34, 12 August 2023 (UTC)rcb1

Thanks for the heads-up - I notice that some Washington Post source articles are no longer paywalled too. I tend to change from the Telegraph announcements now because they are quite scant as to detail, and many others have a good bio to back them up. Thanks for the message. Ref ^(chew)(do) 21:22, 12 August 2023 (UTC)

Serial/Oxford/US style commas

I see you have some ideas about the relation between whether the last thing is related to the others and whether to use a comma or just "and". Maybe you're right, but I've never heard of this; always figured it was just something some writers do or don't, whatever the theme of the list. Did you learn this way somewhere or is it yours? In any case, your revisions are fine by me. Just a strange thing to see, so I'm intrigued. Hope you're doing well, whatever the story. InedibleHulk (talk) 04:24, 16 November 2023 (UTC)

Hi. In the past, I've also tried removing the "US pause", as I call it, from entries in Wikipedia Deaths, and been told off. You'll know I'm a Brit and have never needed to subscribe to that punctuation variation before (I still don't, in my private writings). I was once firmly told that unrelated occupational credits must have that comma for the sake of US readers/editors, so am just trying to keep up with the "consensus" (it may not actually be) on this. I don't revert edits for the sake of it, or use it as some kind of revenge weapon, so I'm pleased you have not taken any umbrage over the matter. I wish you well too.

A different annoyance for me, by the way, is what I call misuse of the quote pause or stop - that is, when a personal quote ends in ," or ." - which is correct. However, when separating items in quotes, such as songs, that style should not apply, and the comma or pause should be outside the quotation ("That Darned Cat", "Mary Mary" and "Stone Love", for instance, should carry any commas or full stops after the final quotemark). That seems to be a US thing too, but for me is just grammatically wrong. Steam let off and done. Best wishes. Ref ^(chew)(do) 07:31, 16 November 2023 (UTC)

As a Canadian, if it's not full sentence, I leave the comma outside. "Full quotes, fine." But "stuff like this," bah! Not sure if that's a Canadian thing; it should be! "Stone Love", absolutely. But yeah, best not to rock the boat when it comes to those sorts of consensuses, I find. Their origins are unclear and our archives do little to remind us, but our traditions are least temporarily built on those fleeting-but-firm discussions of yore. Besides, if we lose this one, we might lose the "Rule of Three" and I love that little hangup! I'm pleased you've wished me well and thank you for nudging me toward (but never "towards") learning what "Stone Love" even is...shame about that drummer, though. InedibleHulk (talk) 17:44, 17 November 2023 (UTC)

Cheers anyway! Ref ^(chew)(do) 19:40, 17 November 2023 (UTC)

This isn't exactly about commas, though even less about sudden cardiac arrest and I don't want to make a new section, but when a trader is involved in insider trading, the R drops and he (or she) becomes an "inside trader". It's sort of like how a battery that's ever ready is Eveready. Of course, there's also the British Ever Ready Electrical Company, so you can "have this one", if you want. InedibleHulk (talk) 00:20, 21 May 2024 (UTC)

I did a Google search for "inside trader", and couldn't get any results for that - however, a Sky article about Boesky headlines as "Ivan Boesky: Notorious insider trader who helped inspire Wall Street's Gordon Gekko dies" (my bolding). It's here, and is probably not the best example to hold up (it's Sky, after all!), but it does use the double-'er' form. I would suggest that the double-'er' needs to be done away with - a better description might be, "American securities trader, convicted of insider trading". Quite wordy but more accurate, so if you think this is some kind of solution let me know, or make the edit yourself. Thanks. Ref ^(chew)(do) 06:39, 21 May 2024 (UTC)

I also just found two instances within the Insider trading article itself too - "insider-trader" and "insider traders". Not wanting to hammer the point home, but... Ref ^(chew)(do) 06:45, 21 May 2024 (UTC)

Twitter as a source

Help me understand this, Twitter (X) is a delivery mechanism. The entity publishing the tweet is the source. The Delaware Blue Coats official account is a proper source for factual information (not to establish GNG because it is not independent). I am not overly worried about it but this doesn’t make sense to me. Rikster2 (talk) 14:26, 4 January 2024 (UTC)

Also, are the guidelines for acceptable sources for deaths published somewhere? I was under the impression that Legacy.com wasn’t allowed, though that was an assumption. Rikster2 (talk) 14:32, 4 January 2024 (UTC)

Why are you posting this issue on my personal page? This is something you need to take up at Talk:Deaths in 2024 if you feel it is wrong, as it is a project consensus not to use Facebook, Twitter/X, Instagram, etc., not my personal decision or opinion. Post there please to get a broader range of answers on the issue. (Legacy has always been allowed, as in each case it clearly refers to a reliable source either within its article or within the web address URL. Thanks - but another one to be brought up at Deaths in 2024.) Ref ^(chew)(do) 19:24, 4 January 2024 (UTC)

I thought that you might know more about it than me and could educate me a little. Maybe even direct me to a consensus discussion. Sorry for the disturbance. Geez Rikster2 (talk) 00:15, 5 January 2024 (UTC)

In a nutshell, social media sites in general, including forums and low-grade blogs, are simply not trusted by editors in the Deaths projects. It's not a disturbance for me, I'd quite happily join in a discussion on the Deaths talk page if you opened a section, as would many others with useful input to make and opinions to offer. My own take on social media/forums/blogs are that they fall well below the level required to be considered reliable, simply because user accounts there are not verifiable. This makes the veracity of claims made within their posts unverifiable, except by comparing them against reporting by other sources. And consulting those other sources usually results in more reliable outlets turning up by accident. I think social media sites, especially Twitter/X, are a great way to find out what's coming by what they claim, but I still say that entering a death in the list requires more reliable sources. Thanks. Ref ^(chew)(do) 00:27, 5 January 2024 (UTC)

I have sent you a note about a page you started

Hello, Refsworldlee. Thank you for your work on Jon Povey. Bastun, while examining this page as a part of our page curation process, had the following comments:

Hi Refsworldlee. Nice work on this article. I would suggest adding additional appropriate categories, and including the article in appropriate Wikiprojects. I would also recommend including a 'photo requested' template on the talk page.

To reply, leave a comment here and begin it with {{Re|Bastun}}. Please remember to sign your reply with ~~~~. (Message delivered via the Page Curation tool, on behalf of the reviewer.)

Bastun^{Ėġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ!} 15:28, 10 January 2024 (UTC)

@Bastun: - thank you for your kind comments. However, as I merely created a redirect due to dubious notability, I don't feel I am able to contribute further to the building of the article which has developed from it. But good luck to all who do add to its value. Best wishes. Ref ^(chew)(do) 16:12, 10 January 2024 (UTC)

I have sent you a note about a page you started

Hello, Refsworldlee. Thank you for your work on Ian Amey. Bastun, while examining this page as a part of our page curation process, had the following comments:

Hi Refsworldlee, please consider adding the new article to appropriate Wikiprojects, such as Biography and Music.

To reply, leave a comment here and begin it with {{Re|Bastun}}. Please remember to sign your reply with ~~~~. (Message delivered via the Page Curation tool, on behalf of the reviewer.)

Bastun^{Ėġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ!} 15:47, 18 February 2024 (UTC)

@Bastun:: - thank you for your kind comments. However, as I merely created a redirect due to limited notability, I don't feel I am able to contribute further to the building of the article which has developed from it. But good luck to all who do add to its value. Best wishes. Ref ^(chew)(do) 15:58, 18 February 2024 (UTC)

Pierre Montlaur

I wouldn’t say I incorrectly removed him, his article was created after I deleted him in accordance with the redlink removal format. Rusted AutoParts 17:09, 26 February 2024 (UTC)

Sorry for the wrong inference - I must admit I hadn't checked the timings for your edit and the article creation. No negative feelings intended towards you or your work here. Thanks for pointing this out. Ref ^(chew)(do) 22:29, 26 February 2024 (UTC)

You're talking about SUDDEN cardiac arrest there

You know where. Those six extra letters, like most words, make a difference. Anyway, life's too short; follow your heart. InedibleHulk (talk) 12:59, 12 March 2024 (UTC)

If you read the whole article I gave a link to in my summary, you will know that sudden or otherwise matters not to them. They've given clear differences to two types of cause of death, and its only the words "cause of death" that I'm interested in personally, and the ability to attach one correctly to a death. Anyway, thank you for your good grace as always. Cheers. Ref ^(chew)(do) 13:38, 12 March 2024 (UTC)

I did read it and of course "sudden" matters or the author wouldn't have written "sudden cardiac arrest" ten times. In the public health statistical context, it makes perfect sense to differentiate between people who suddenly drop dead and people whose hearts stop beating after some more suitable category, such as heart disease, drug overdose or car crash. In a medical sense, though, it's a terminal event common to all dead people ever, and so the "cause of death" box in any certificate must explain why the heart stopped on Line 2,3 and/or 4, even if "cardiac arrest" is written on Line 1. I guess it depends on whether one considers our work part of the public health industry or broader medical world. Cheers! InedibleHulk (talk) 15:25, 12 March 2024 (UTC)

Our work is in neither sphere. We just add the announced decisions of sourced others to our Deaths page. I don't see any more noble action than that on our part. Ours also is from an anecdotal standpoint rather than a strictly medical view. If our source says "cardiac arrest" (sudden or otherwise), and editor-accessed sites such as the Heart organisation confirm that cardiac arrest (sudden or otherwise) is a cause of death, I don't see that we have to question anything further. We editors are not doctors (well, a few might be). An example article exists on the Heart org's own website here, in which they appear to endorse the cause of actor Jan Michael Vincent's death as a cardiac arrest. (By the way, the cause inline could be changed to "sudden cardiac arrest" if you so wished.) Thanks. Ref ^(chew)(do) 15:43, 12 March 2024 (UTC)

In Faqir Chand Aggarwal's case, it wasn't sudden at all. He was "attacked during treatment", per the headline, and "died due to heart rate stay", per the body. If that wasn't enough, it says he was 94 (three times), yet some editor (who may or may not be an expert) has decided to go with 91. Either way, he was old and did his heart did what dead people's do, for whatever underlying and more informative reason. InedibleHulk (talk) 15:58, 12 March 2024 (UTC)

I accept both your points, but that would involve removing the source completely as unreliable I suppose? Anyway, 'nuff said if you are happy with everything. Ref ^(chew)(do) 16:01, 12 March 2024 (UTC)

I tried Googling for a better source, presuming one would say "heart attack", as Indian news tends to do. But no dice, so we'll have to just go with it. As for Bilbo, it's merely "suggested that he died in hospital after suffering a cardiac arrest on March 1st" (emphasis mine, take it as you will). InedibleHulk (talk) 16:06, 12 March 2024 (UTC)

If I remove "cardiac arrest" from M. Emmett Walsh's entry, reasoning "EVERYBODY "dies of" cardiac arrest", do you suppose you'd restore it? If so, I'll save you the trouble and look the other way. If not, though, consider it done. InedibleHulk (talk) 01:30, 23 March 2024 (UTC)

Without looking at the entry and its source, I would certainly restore it if the source implied or asserted that the cause was "cardiac arrest" or "sudden cardiac arrest", as per our discussions above. Although obviously not a doctor myself, I was a first aider for 20 years during my employment, and covered cardiac arrest and its causes through repeated qualification re-examinations. At this point in my reply, I will go and have a look and let you know definitively.

So - his article states "Walsh died of cardiac arrest at Northwestern Medical Center in St. Albans, Vermont, on March 19, 2024, three days before his 89th birthday." While the source in use does NOT assert that cause directly, a reliable one at NPR does state it. Bear in mind that there are multiple medical reasons WHY a cardiac arrest occurs - it's not only down to age-related "natural causes", which is a reason we do not include as you know, and we can't always assume the arrest occurred because "they were old". So, yeah, I would want to revert that in line with the use of the cause in all the other entries that contain it and are supported by sources confirming it. What I would say is, I am clearly not the only editor who feels that cardiac arrest is a correct insertable cause, so it would not just be my opposition that you would face. Thanks for the heads-up though. Ref ^(chew)(do) 07:36, 23 March 2024 (UTC)

Yeah, some IP added that back. It's pointless, but it happens. I don't recall suggesting it had anything to do with his age, and do remember reminding you that every cardiac arrest has up to three underlying causes, but whatever. I'll let it be. I'm going to mope for an indefinite period first and may never come back, but after that, hunky-dory. InedibleHulk (talk) 19:50, 23 March 2024 (UTC)

I don't believe the last bit for a minute, and I certainly hope not. You're an invaluable editor in the Deaths cause, if that's actually a thing! Good luck with all. Ref ^(chew)(do) 22:07, 23 March 2024 (UTC)

OK, fine, not hunky-dory. We'll see. Thanks. InedibleHulk (talk) 23:55, 23 March 2024 (UTC)

I have sent you a note about a page you started

Hi Refsworldlee. Thank you for your work on Ervín Hoida. Another editor, SunDawn, has reviewed it as part of new pages patrol and left the following comment:

Good day! Thank you for contributing to Wikipedia by writing this article. I have marked the article as reviewed. Have a wonderful and blessed day for you and your family!

To reply, leave a comment here and begin it with {{Re|SunDawn}}. (Message delivered via the Page Curation tool, on behalf of the reviewer.)

✠ SunDawn ✠ (contact) 16:56, 26 May 2024 (UTC)

@SunDawn: - thank you for your kind comments. Good luck to all who add to its value. Best wishes. Ref ^(chew)(do) 19:06, 26 May 2024 (UTC)

The Naked Gun

No, it is not deceitful. The article for the film even specifies it is also known simply as The Naked Gun. The piping links squarely to the first film, not the franchise, so I really don’t understand what trickery is being put forth. Charles’ credits are all rather lengthy titles, I see zero problems in shorthanding Naked Gun given what I’ve laid out here. It’s not at all insinuating she was a franchise mainstay. Rusted AutoParts 07:01, 6 June 2024 (UTC)

As you wish, though I still disagree. If you make the revert edit I won't be warring on this (life too short, etc.). Ref ^(chew)(do) 07:03, 6 June 2024 (UTC)

Tappy

Éric Tappy: I completely disagree. The English "reference" is just a copy of our article, not a reliable source. Why should we invite a reader to click on it? - I can only hope then that we'll get something decent in English, because this isn't. Radio Télévision Suisse is a much more reliable news provider than Mr. Salazar's website. -- Gerda Arendt (talk) 13:02, 15 June 2024 (UTC)

Perhaps this will suffice as a compromise then, even though I hate using the bloggish Lebrecht fervently. I'll make the change from the Operawire one. Ref ^(chew)(do) 13:09, 15 June 2024 (UTC)