User talk:EEMIV/Archive 23

This is a talk page archive. Please do not edit its contents.
If you'd like to get in touch with me, please leave a new message on my current talk page --EEMIV

Tech News: 2016-06

Latest tech news from the Wikimedia technical community. Please tell other users about these changes. Not all changes will affect you. Translations are available.

Recent changes

Syntax highlighting support is now available for 53 more computer languages. [1]
When you get a notification that an edit has been reverted, the notification now quotes part of the edit summary. [2]
RESTBase is now using scrub_wikitext instead of scrubWikitext. [3]

Changes this week

Wikidata will have a new data type called "math". It will be used for formulas. [4][5]
The new version of MediaWiki will be on test wikis and MediaWiki.org from 9 February. It will be on non-Wikipedia wikis and some Wikipedias from 10 February. It will be on all wikis from 11 February (calendar).

Meetings

You can join the next meeting with the VisualEditor team. During the meeting, you can tell developers which bugs you think are the most important. The meeting will be on 9 February at 20:00 (UTC). See how to join.
You can join the next meeting with the Architecture committee. The topic this week is per-language URLs for pages of multilingual wikis. The meeting will be on 10 February at 22:00 (UTC). See how to join.

Future changes

Other sites will be able to tell when visitors come from links on Wikipedia and other Wikimedia sites. They used to be able to do this until we started using forced HTTPS in June 2015. This is planned to happen on 15 February. [6][7]
Wikidata will have a new data type called "external-id". It will be used for references to external resources. It will be enabled on February 16. Some properties will be changed to the new data type. [8][9][10]

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18:58, 8 February 2016 (UTC)

Tech News: 2016-07

Latest tech news from the Wikimedia technical community. Please tell other users about these changes. Not all changes will affect you. Translations are available.

Recent changes

You can now edit pages on the mobile site version without JavaScript. [11]
You can now use the Math extension to write chemistry formulas. [12]

Problems

A few editors might have been logged in as someone else because of a bug. For security reasons everyone was logged out on 9 February. If you have seen this bug, you can report it. [13][14]

Changes this week

There is a beta feature that adds links to the subject on other Wikimedia projects. The plan was to have it leave beta testing and be enabled for everyone in January. It will happen on 16 February instead. Wikis that don't want this can decide to have it disabled. [15][16]
Cross-wiki notifications will be available as a beta feature on Wikidata, MediaWiki, Commons, and all Hebrew and French wikis on 19 February. [17]
The new version of MediaWiki will be on test wikis and MediaWiki.org from 16 February. It will be on non-Wikipedia wikis and some Wikipedias from 17 February. It will be on all wikis from 18 February (calendar).

Meetings

You can join the next meeting with the VisualEditor team. During the meeting, you can tell developers which bugs you think are the most important. The meeting will be on 16 February at 20:00 (UTC). See how to join.

Future changes

The search function on Wikimedia wikis will get a completion suggester that tries to find the right pages as the user is typing. It will also recognize some typos. This will probably happen in March. It is currently in beta. [18]

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16:16, 15 February 2016 (UTC)

Please comment on Talk:Child abuse

The feedback request service is asking for participation in this request for comment on Talk:Child abuse. Legobot (talk) 04:25, 21 February 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Tech News: 2016-08

Latest tech news from the Wikimedia technical community. Please tell other users about these changes. Not all changes will affect you. Translations are available.

Recent changes

Phabricator has been upgraded. [19][20]

Problems

There was no new MediaWiki version last week. Changes that were planned to happen last week will happen this week instead. This is because of a bug that made saving pages take longer time. [21][22]

Changes this week

After February 23, you can use Wikidata for inter-language links on Wikiversity. [23]

Meetings

You can join the next meeting with the VisualEditor team. During the meeting, you can tell developers which bugs you think are the most important. The meeting will be on 23 February at 20:00 (UTC). See how to join.
You can join the next meeting with the Architecture committee. The topic this week is Assign RFCs to ArchCom shepherds. The meeting will be on 24 February at 22:00 (UTC). See how to join.

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18:22, 22 February 2016 (UTC)

Tech News: 2016-09

Latest tech news from the Wikimedia technical community. Please tell other users about these changes. Not all changes will affect you. Translations are available.

Recent changes

Thanks to the Graph extension and Pageview API, we now have {{Graph:PageViews}} templates that can show pageviews for any wiki page for any of the wikis. See the examples.
The Capiunto extension is installed on test wiki. Capiunto provides flexible infobox functionality for Scribunto and generates HTML for infobox features such as headers and rows. It is designed for clean and modern infoboxes that are driven by data from Wikidata, easily usable across different language versions, and easily extensible.
The visual editor now follows the TemplateData format setting announced in November. When you edit or add a use of a template, the wikitext will be laid out in one of the two ways. [24][25]
The order of parameters and format defined in a template's TemplateData will be now respected. [26][27]

Changes this week

On wikis where the visual editor is available in single edit tab mode, red links may open the visual editor instead of the wikitext editor, depending on user preferences. [28]
Anonymous editor warning is now displayed as a warningbox for consistency in both the visual editor and the wikitext editor. [29]
Parsoid has been updated to fit some HTML 5 specifications. [30]

Meetings

Resigning executive director Lila Tretikov is taking questions at Knowledge Engine FAQ regarding the much talked about project. [31]
You can join the next meeting with the VisualEditor team. During the meeting, you can tell developers which bugs you think are the most important. The meeting will be on 1 March at 20:00 (UTC). See how to join.

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20:12, 29 February 2016 (UTC)

Tech News: 2016-10

Latest tech news from the Wikimedia technical community. Please tell other users about these changes. Not all changes will affect you. Translations are available.

Recent changes

Files on Wikimedia Commons can now be 2 GB big. The old limit was 1 GB. [32]
Welcome notifications now have a different symbol. English Wikipedia already had this one. [33]
The Wikimedia memory cache servers in the Eqiad cluster have now been upgraded to Debian 8 (Jessie). Some users might have had to log in again because of this. [34]
It is now easier to categorize images uploaded to Wikimedia Commons in the Commons Android app. [35]
Bare attributes in tags now parse according to the HTML5 specifications. <pages from= to= section=1> will parse as <pages from="to=" section="1"> instead of <pages from="" to="" section="1"> as it used to. Please use <pages from="" to="" section=1> or <pages section=1> instead. This is mostly likely to affect pages on Wikisource projects. [36]

Problems

Phabricator has been a bit unstable lately. This should be fixed now. [37]
The PageView API shows wrong data between 23 February and 29 February for pages with special characters in their title. [38]
The parsing change mentioned above caused a large number of pages to break, especially on Wikisource. [39]
You may see falsely formatted edit links on both mobile and desktop devices. Mobile devices can also show incorrect formatted table of contents. This should be fixed soon. [40]
Templates using TemplateData that were edited with the visual editor might have some problems in wikitext mode. This can be fixed by editing and saving the page by using the visual editor without making any changes. [41]

Changes this week

Cross-wiki notifications will be enabled as a beta feature on all wikis on 10 March. You will be able to get notifications when something happens on another Wikimedia wiki. [42]
The new version of MediaWiki will be on test wikis and MediaWiki.org from 8 March. It will be on non-Wikipedia wikis and some Wikipedias from 9 March. It will be on all wikis from 10 March (calendar).
Wikivoyages will get the Kartographer extension. Kartographer will allow <mapframe> and <maplink> tags in an article to insert an interactive map and overlay it with different markers. You can add ideas and suggestions to the Maps talk page. If you find any bugs, you can report them in Phabricator. [43]

Meetings

You can join the next meeting with the VisualEditor team. During the meeting, you can tell developers which bugs you think are the most important. The meeting will be on 8 March at 20:00 (UTC). See how to join.

Future changes

The buttons in interfaces will be simplified. Instead of white, red, green and blue buttons, in future there will only be white, red and blue ones. [44]
The Wikimedia technical operations team plans to do some server work on 22 March. This could cause some problems, for example make it possible to read but not edit the Wikimedia wikis for a short period of time. The date for this might change. [45]

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20:24, 7 March 2016 (UTC)

Reverts

Dude, you just reverted 20 pages in a row with no edit summary for any of them, I find it hard to believe that you've properly assessed the changes you're reverting. Besides, an explanation would be nice in most cases.— TAnthony^Talk 20:39, 6 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I second this. I delsorted Alien-Predator universe's AfD at Wikipedia:WikiProject Deletion sorting/Science fiction, which you reverted. If I made a mistake by delsorting this under science fiction, I don't mind the reversion at all, but I don't think I made a mistake. After all, the first line of Alien-Predator universe reads "The Alien-Predator universe are American media franchises and share a fictional universe that is centered on a series of science fiction films" (emphasis mine). Thanks, /wiae /tlk 20:55, 6 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Considering this inexplicable revert at Boba Fett, I agree with both of you. The user re-added a blatantly unnotable and uncited trivia fact and a non-link at the "See also" section for no explained reason. DarkKnight2149 20:59, 6 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Seems I'm not the only one here to complain about an unexplained revert. [46]. -mattbuck (Talk) 22:34, 6 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I had an addition to the talk page of the lightsaber article reverted without explanation.--Quarax (talk) 14:09, 7 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Holy shit. Thank you for the heads-up. I think my account's been compromised. (Take a look at my more substantive edit history, including just basic grammar, and I think you'll agree this is an aberrant string for me.) --EEMIV (talk) 01:00, 8 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

It has? Do you need help with anything? DarkKnight2149 01:01, 8 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for the offer. I just changed my account password and posted a "any other tips or guidelines?" at ANI. I'm going through "my" recent contributions looking to revert any that other editors didn't catch -- I'd ask you to help, but I imagine we'd just collide with each other. Ugh. Thanks for the offer. --EEMIV (talk) 01:08, 8 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I need to jump into this conversation as well, as you reverted this edit, where I was removed a stray sign. Did you change your password before this? It sounds like your security is seriously compromised. DARTHBOTTO_talk•cont 01:16, 8 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I'm going to chalk that up to me either not telling the different between red and green and/or just a click-happy attempt to fix this. I'll keep an eye on things. But if you seem to see something further amiss, go raise the flag in the section I made at ANI. I'm going to go eat dinner now. --EEMIV (talk) 01:18, 8 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, I thought it was weird behavior for you! Thought maybe you were having a bad day haha. Sorry if my initial comment came off snarky ;) — TAnthony^Talk 01:19, 8 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

No sweat, and an understandable response. --EEMIV (talk) 02:06, 8 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

You may want to review the reverts you performed today. I'm not sure if it was your intention or still the person who compromised you, but a few edits were caught in the cross fire such as here. -- ferret (talk) 01:30, 8 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Yeah, I think in my haste I mis-clicked a few. Sorry that was one of them. --EEMIV (talk) 02:06, 8 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

March 2016

Please refrain from making unconstructive edits to Wikipedia, as you did at Jediism. Your edits appear to be disruptive and have been or will be reverted or removed.

If you are engaged in an article content dispute with another editor then please discuss the matter with the editor at their talk page, or the article's talk page. Alternatively you can read Wikipedia's dispute resolution page, and ask for independent help at one of the relevant notice boards.
If you are engaged in any other form of dispute that is not covered on the dispute resolution page, please seek assistance at Wikipedia's Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents.

Please ensure you are familiar with Wikipedia's policies and guidelines, and please do not continue to make edits that appear disruptive, until the dispute is resolved through consensus. Continuing to edit disruptively could result in loss of editing privileges. Thank you. Charles (talk) 09:13, 8 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Settings

I suggest you double check the compromise has not led to your email settings being changed. Guy (Help!) 09:39, 9 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Tech News: 2016-11

Latest tech news from the Wikimedia technical community. Please tell other users about these changes. Not all changes will affect you. Translations are available.

Recent changes

The mobile web interface no longer suggests HiDPI thumbnails. This is to take up less bandwidth on slow or expensive connections. [47]
The search engine on wikipedia.org has been updated. [48]

Changes this week

Wikimedia has a new backup data center in Dallas. Because of planned work on this, you will be able to read but not edit the wikis for a short period of time on both 22 March and 24 March. This could be postponed to April 18. You might lose edits if you try to save during this time. Because of a test, there will also be a couple of minutes where you can't edit the wikis on 15 March starting 07:00 UTC. You can read more about the server work. There will be more notifications and updates about this.
Administrators and other users with advanced permissions will need to have an 8-byte long passwords. This change takes place on 15 March. Users with too short passwords will be asked to change password the next time they log in. This was decided in a discussion on Meta and is because they can use tools that can hurt the wikis. [49]
The new version of MediaWiki will be on test wikis and MediaWiki.org from 15 March. It will be on non-Wikipedia wikis and some Wikipedias from 16 March. It will be on all wikis from 17 March (calendar).
The buttons in interfaces will be simplified. Instead of white, red, green and blue buttons, in future there will only be white, red and blue ones. [50]

Meetings

You can join the next meeting with the VisualEditor team. During the meeting, you can tell developers which bugs you think are the most important. The meeting will be on 15 March at 19:00 (UTC). See how to join.
You can join the next meeting with the Architecture committee. The topics this week are backlog and thumb API. The meeting will be on 16 March at 21:00 (UTC). See how to join.

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18:37, 14 March 2016 (UTC)

Tech News: 2016-12

Latest tech news from the Wikimedia technical community. Please tell other users about these changes. Not all changes will affect you. Translations are available.

Problems

Wikimedia has a new backup data center in Dallas. The Wikimedia Technology department planned to test it this week. This will take place the week of April 18 instead. You can read more about the server work. There will be more notifications and updates about this.
In Firefox, the visual editor would sometimes just jump down to the bottom of the page when you double-clicked on a table cell. This has now been fixed. [51]

Changes this week

It will now be easier to list IP addresses that don't have to solve CAPTCHAs. [52]
You will now be able to mark Echo notifications as unread. [53]
The new version of MediaWiki will be on test wikis and MediaWiki.org from 21 March. It will be on non-Wikipedia wikis and some Wikipedias from 22 March. It will be on all wikis from 23 March (calendar).

Meetings

You can join the next meeting with the VisualEditor team. During the meeting, you can tell developers which bugs you think are the most important. The meeting will be on 22 March at 19:00 (UTC). See how to join.

Future changes

URLs in the recent changes IRC feed will no longer be rewritten to unencrypted HTTP. This could be a breaking change for bots dependent on the IRC feed. This will happen on May 2. [54]

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16:04, 21 March 2016 (UTC)

Please comment on Wikipedia talk:Videos

The feedback request service is asking for participation in this request for comment on Wikipedia talk:Videos. Legobot (talk) 04:29, 22 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Tech News: 2016-13

Latest tech news from the Wikimedia technical community. Please tell other users about these changes. Not all changes will affect you. Translations are available.

Recent changes

MediaWiki now supports the semantic web standards of Microdata and RDFa 1.0. On Wikimedia projects, a configuration change must be requested in order to enable RDFa 1.0. [55] [56]

Problems

Adding references with Citoid was broken for approximately 6 hours on 24 March. This was fixed. [57]

Changes this week

The new version of MediaWiki will be on test wikis and MediaWiki.org from 29 March. It will be on non-Wikipedia wikis and some Wikipedias from 30 March. It will be on all wikis from 31 March (calendar).
You will be able to remove the header and footer style from User language (babel) boxes. This will make it easier to use them with other userboxes. [58]

Meetings

You can join the next meeting with part of the Architecture committee, which will discuss a few topics. The meeting will be on 30 March at 21:00 (UTC). See how to join.
The Architecture committee has sent a summary of new and ongoing RFC discussions.

Future changes

Commons will soon have improved access to Wikidata's data. It will then be possible to access data about any concept on any page on Commons. Assistance with testing this on the beta cluster is appreciated. [59]
Wikibits.js will not be loaded by default anymore starting April 2016. Gadget and script authors should have already updated their code since the previous announcements, but there is another migration path available if needed. See wikitech-l for details.

Corrections

Last week Tech News said the new MediaWiki version would come to wikis from 21 March to 23 March. The right dates were 22 March to 24 March.

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19:43, 28 March 2016 (UTC)

Tech News: 2016-14

Latest tech news from the Wikimedia technical community. Please tell other users about these changes. Not all changes will affect you. Translations are available.

Recent changes

You can filter Special:Log in more detail. [60]
Wikimedia wikis have a new way of counting visitors. [61]

Changes this week

The new version of MediaWiki will be on test wikis and MediaWiki.org from April 5. It will be on non-Wikipedia wikis and some Wikipedias from April 6. It will be on all wikis from April 7 (calendar).

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22:13, 4 April 2016 (UTC)

Tech News: 2016-15

Latest tech news from the Wikimedia technical community. Please tell other users about these changes. Not all changes will affect you. Translations are available.

Recent changes

The visual editor can generate wikicode with image options in your language. Examples of image options are "thumb" or "left". You can ask to change to options in your language in Phabricator. [62][63]
Wiktionaries and Wikisources can now use the visual editor. It is an opt-in beta feature. It still needs development to work better with these projects. [64][65]
ORES is using new models. Tools that use ORES' predictions can behave strangely. ORES also has a new API. [66]
The visual editor now supports classical Greek characters. [67]

Problems

There was a bug when you used keyboard arrows in templates in the visual editor. This has now been fixed. [68]

Changes this week

The new version of MediaWiki will be on test wikis and MediaWiki.org from 12 April. It will be on non-Wikipedia wikis and some Wikipedias from 13 April. It will be on all wikis from 14 April (calendar).
The wikipedia.org portal will get many small bug fixes and improvements. Most will be for the search box and suggested results that were added in March. [69]

Meetings

You can join the next meeting with the VisualEditor team. During the meeting, you can tell developers which bugs you think are the most important. The meeting will be on 12 April at 19:00 (UTC). See how to join.
You can join the next meeting with the Architecture committee. The topics this week are improving transclusion of templates for Parsoid and balanced templates. The meeting will be on 13 April at 21:00 (UTC). See how to join.

Future changes

Wikimedia has a new backup data center in Dallas. Because of planned work on this, you will be able to read but not edit the wikis for a short period of time on both 19 April and 21 April. This will start at 14:00 UTC and last for 15 to 30 minutes. [70]

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20:44, 11 April 2016 (UTC)

Tech News: 2016-16

Latest tech news from the Wikimedia technical community. Please tell other users about these changes. Not all changes will affect you. Translations are available.

Recent changes

You can filter Special:Log in more detail. You can filter different imports and new users. [71][72]
You can use Telnet to read Wikimedia wikis. [73]
MediaWiki wikis can handle bigger file uploads. The new limit is 4 GB. [74]

Changes this week

Wikimedia has a new backup data center in Dallas. Because of planned work on this, you will be able to read but not edit the wikis for a short period of time on both 19 April and 21 April. This will start at 14:00 UTC and last for 15 to 30 minutes. [75]
There is no new Mediawiki version this week. This is because of the data center test.

Meetings

You can join the next meeting with the VisualEditor team. During the meeting, you can tell developers which bugs you think are the most important. The meeting will be on April 19 at 19:00 (UTC). See how to join.
You can join the next meeting with the Architecture committee. The topic this week is shadow namespaces. The meeting will be on 20 April at 21:30 (UTC). See how to join.

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20:40, 18 April 2016 (UTC)

Please comment on Help talk:Citation Style 1

The feedback request service is asking for participation in this request for comment on Help talk:Citation Style 1. Legobot (talk) 04:27, 22 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Tech News: 2016-17

Latest tech news from the Wikimedia technical community. Please tell other users about these changes. Not all changes will affect you. Translations are available.

Problems

Wikimedia tested a new data center last week. This meant that the wikis could be read but not edited for 45 minutes on April 19 and for 20 minutes on April 21. [76]
When the data center was tested, new edits were not shown in the recent changes log for 20 minutes. They are in the logs now. You can read more about how to find the edits.
Unread notifications were sometimes counted incorrectly. This has now been fixed. [77]

Changes this week

Wikimedia Commons will have better access to Wikidata. They can use data from any page on Wikidata on any page on Commons. This will happen on April 26. [78]
It will be easier to choose if you want to watch files you have uploaded with the upload wizard. [79]
The new version of MediaWiki will be on test wikis and MediaWiki.org from April 26. It will be on non-Wikipedia wikis and some Wikipedias from April 27. It will be on all wikis from April 28 (calendar).

Meetings

You can join the next meeting with the VisualEditor team. During the meeting, you can tell developers which bugs you think are the most important. The meeting will be on April 26 19:00 (UTC). See how to join.

Future changes

The "Save page" button when you edit will be called "Publish" instead. This is to help new editors understand what it does. It already works like this on some wikis. [80]

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21:02, 25 April 2016 (UTC)

Please comment on Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Korea-related articles

The feedback request service is asking for participation in this request for comment on Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Korea-related articles. Legobot (talk) 04:26, 23 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Why i reverted you

I could not undo that specific edit because it was affected by the number of other edits in the history. There were a number of edits that I disproved of as well. Such as removing the "parascientific" title as well as adding/removing/re-wording a lot of important text that article that I was working on. Nobody's stopping you from adding stuff, but this massive re-wording and cutting out of text and changing the contexts is going to be problematic. I mean, it changed the meaning of so many sentences and sections, something that is obviously going to be interpreted differently. With regards to discussion, all you could do was ping me. If you already did, I never received any recent notification. If you want to continue editing, you may do so, but keep a notification on the talk page like I did.--NadirAli نادر علی (talk) 02:02, 26 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I think, then, that you acted pretty inappropriately in removing what was a net positive for the article. Can you offer any greater specificity as to what sections, paragraphs, etc. you're concerned about? Yes, I've reworded and rewritten things -- in some cases, honestly, into clearer English or (in the case specifically of the science concepts) technically accurate language. I'm happy to work with you, but you really need to extend beyond just edit summaries. I am concerned that with this science section in particular, you are showing problematic issues of ownership over the content. As for you not seeing notifications: if you're heavily editing a particular page, I highly suggest you take a look at edit history/contributions for the talk page and not just rely on the notification system. You'll see several open-ended prompts/requests on the talk page with questions/ideas I've put forward that aren't specifically addressed at you (because, frankly, anyone who cares is welcome to chime in and contribute).

Feel free to respond here if you prefer, or on the article talk page. But, respond. And get into specifics about what your issues are. --EEMIV (talk) 02:07, 26 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I obviously did not mean the article "is my own" I meant my contributions of course. I am wasting my time if the reliably sourced contribution has had it's contexts changed. And like I wrote, I left a number of updates when I was adding stuff, I just wish you had done the same. From now on you can do that only. And I never stopped you from adding stuff, I just am concerned about (as most users would be) about contexts changed and material removed without proper reasoning.--NadirAli نادر علی (talk) 02:35, 26 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Another problem I had with those edits is they removed Jeanne Cavelos's significance to the subject. I mean she's a qualified astrophysicist and worked for NASA, why should that be removed and make people think she's just a random SW fan? Come on.--NadirAli نادر علی (talk) 02:42, 26 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Discussion at Talk:Darth Vader#Appearances section

You are invited to join the discussion at Talk:Darth Vader#Appearances section. Lord Sjones23 (talk - contributions) 14:08, 27 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I'll take a gander this afternoon. --EEMIV (talk) 14:13, 27 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Edit removed

I removed this edit [81] because it did not contribute to the purpose of that section. I know I pledged to stay away from that article for a while and am keeping that pledge, but that edit literally had nothing to do the comparison of magic to the force. If you like I'm open to creating a Magic in Star Wars article since there's lots of coverage on the Ewok films and other sorcery and we can add that particular edit there, but I think that edit has no direct comparison to The Force..--NadirAli نادر علی (talk) 03:40, 2 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Yeah, you're right. Thank you. Next time, since this is germane to the article, this kind of note should go to the article talk page. --EEMIV (talk) 13:07, 2 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Not a problem. See what you can achieve until we can go into discussing a "Magic in Star Wars" article.--NadirAli نادر علی (talk) 01:58, 4 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Responding to your claims here

"NadirAli -- I've been curious about your editing habits, because I see both positive intent in your contributions coupled with troubling habits when not in consensus with other editors. You've manifested both across several articles with different editors in the last few months. You and Star Wars are the common factors. Edit warring and other poor decision-making led to your one-year block nine years ago under a slightly different user name and corresponding topic ban. While you've been back for a while and nine years is a lot of time to grow, I am concerned by your continued antagonistic behavior after having received a pretty serious consequence for previous transgressions. At the same time, I think you can make worthwhile, positive contributions to Wikipedia in general and Star Wars content specifically, and I'd like to help you do that."

Firstly, I welcome your help- that is if it will improve the quality of content and not lead to misinformation. And speaking of misinformation, all your claims are practically baseless, without merit, misinformative (perhaps with or without intent) and to a degree, frankly, inflammatory, with all due respect. The ban had very little to do with "my poor decision making", unless you consider contradicting the stronger side a "mistake". It had to do with an arbitrator who was known off Wiki for favoring Hindu editors in every single dispute weather they were Sikh, Bhuddists or Muslims as discussed on Wikipedia Review -a site I am not even a member of. The same arbitrator went on a permanent leave from Wikipedia after being investigated for personal attacks. It also had to do with an administrator who filed the case against me and who also blocked users who disagreed with him as documented on Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Hkelkar 2, leading him to be de-sysopped for it (also seen in that case), even if by the same arbitrator because this was an internal dispute between the Indian editors. This is also something that user:Szhaider repeated [82]. So please, do not try to make up a "connection" to this with your displeasure of my edits on Star Wars pages.

If anything this will only draw attention to the behavior of the previous arbcom, something user:Dbachman (an admin) even criticized. So, for your own good, I would advise you not to get into that. It will not harm me in any way. It will only harm those who edit warred me and abused their administrative privileges.

Did I make mistakes in my time on Wikipedia? Sure- everyone does. I'd be lying to you if I said I didn't. But those situations were more about the stronger side pushing it's will on the weaker side [83] (ask me for more on this if you wish)

"As I and others have summarized, you don't "own" or have any special rights to words, sentences, sections or articles merely by creating/introducing them. Unfortunately, with regard to the Force, in the last 24 hours you referred to "my work", claimed ownership over "my contributions", and (perhaps graciously if illconceivedly) give me limited permission ("From now on you can do that only") to edit conent you created. In January, editors also raised concerns over article ownership at Talk:Technology in Star Wars#Corrections and copyedit, an article you created. Even if you feel your full set of contributions to a topic are incomplete (e.g. your multiple requests for more time to write about the scientific perspective on the Force), other editors have every right to revise your work. That's one reason at least two editors at the Force talk page have suggested you work at your own pace on that section in user space, as Wiki etiquette frowns on editing draft articles in user space without the user's invitation. If you were to extend such an invitation, I'd be happy to work with you at a more leisurely pace on structure, grammar, and other issues of style and content."

Where did I claim I "owned" anything? When discussing a user's (please make note of that) edits by no means translates to their supposed "ownership" of the content, but rather the edits the editor made.

So, in that respect, I am entitled to protect the edits I made -provided there is good reasoning behind it. That reasoning is that my edits correspond to the source- not change it's meaning, which may I remind you is directly in breach of policy.

You also have several times carried out indiscriminate removal of other editors' well-written, well-sourced, and appropriate content in order to restore a subset of content you deemed preferential. That was my frustration last night at The Force (Star Wars). The notion of bold - revert - discuss gives a hearty thumbs-up to pressing "pause," so to speak, on large changes to an article (i.e. the revert part), but there's a responsibility on the reverting editor to respond to or initiate discussion on the article talk page. You were tardy and needed prompting in both instances this week you undid large edits. On a smaller scale but with a similar pattern, you reverted all of an editors changes at Technology in Star Wars, saying that you "did not have the energy" to do specific, piecemail edits, and acknowledge that your actions "may have resulted in removing other more constructive edits". This is an antagonistic tone, and the editor whose work was undone was understandably upset. Yesterday, it seemed like the issue stemmed more from the difficulty with Wikipedia's toolset, as you said you "could not undo that specific edit because it was affected by the number of other edits in the history". I've also been in a situation where I've wanted to selective undo another person's edits -- and, yes, it's a bit more difficult to do. I'm happy to put together some screenshots and offer specific guidance on how to do it with relative ease if you'd like -- just let me know.

Yes, and I still stand by that sentiment. If that IP editor wanted to add content, he was free do it. But when he starts destroying others edits and expects me to re-do all my contributions- a similar situation I faced with you- that is impossible. You simply cannot undo another editors work and expect them to add it all over again. Think how you would react if somebody did that to all your work on an article or anywhere else for that matter.

EEMIV, to be quite frank, I too was very frustrated and upset last night when I logged in and got ready to add more content to that section, only to spend that time recovering edits that were removed and context changed in contrary to sources, which may I again remind you are in breach of policy. No encyclopedia will cite sources that it will contradict. Unless it's an "encyclopedia" such as Uncyclopedia. I took time away from Wikipedia to cool off.

"You've also had a few instances of edit-warring. At Star Wars (film) 15-18 April, three different editors reverted your tweak to the first sentence about the film's renaming. I commend you for going to the talk page after the final time, yet the section you created started off with an antogonistic command that did not at all invite input, discussion, consensus. I wonder whether a more collaborative tone would have brought about an article where your suggested revision remained. You also had edit wars at BB-8 and Tatooine".

Yes "my tweak" was directly stating what the cited sources right there said, something these users wish to cover up, and something you are quite well aware of. Why would you call that antagonistic? It did not invite consensus because the users who opposed were mildly outnumbered as seen in the votes, the talkpage archives and the hostile language used by the users hoping to push their favorite title onto the article in contrary to WP:COMMONNAME. I would expect that WP:RS is not subject to rule of majority. The only thing that protects the article to their favorite version as opposed to WP:COMMONNAME is the three revert rule which they successfully avoid by tag teaming, a fact that I know you are quite well aware of, even if you agree with their motives.

As for my "edit wars" on Tatooine, the infobox has been left in the state that I changed it to, an important detail that you perhaps deliberately left out. There is no such thing as a "space opera planet" (reliable sources?)- it's a science fiction. This "space opera" label is just describing the setting of a sci-fi story, nothing more. It's interesting that you brought up all these issues without directly addressing each one. Because if you did, that would only show the opposing editor at fault, not me.

The BB-8 article has been compromised by all parties to an alternate state, so that is resolved too.

Lastly, you sometimes seem dismissive and insulting toward other editors and their opinions, and at least once you've been asked to be more civil in your language. In the same Star Wars (film) talk section that began with an antonistic demand, you dismissed the "fanboy" title of the film; you told another editor you "did not have the energy" to respond to his edits with thoughtful consideration and, in the same edit, your first response to another editor who tried to get folks to cut you some slack was to "LOL" and dismiss several of his ideas; and I found you condescending in implying my ignorance about a topic.

Again I see no insults there. All I see is stating an opinion. "These people" is not a personal attack when discussing a group of editors with a motive.

If it appears like that, it was likely in response to a refusal to corporate. The remarks left by another user is far more insulting and provocative. I never make negative remarks at anyone, unless it was done to me first and I have long since refrained from making personal attacks, let alone made anything remotely close.

And at the end of all this, I'll go back to my first observation above and one of the first things I wrote to you on an article talk page: I think you have positive intent and are trying your best to improve Wikipedia. However, Wikipedia is not about your best; it's a community effort where we often have a lot to contribute but also have a responsibility to take seriously the input and guidance from other editors, especially when multiple editors across multiple articles seem to be giving the same feedback, e.g. be deliberate and specific in your edits, use a cordial tone, and recognize & accept that other editors can & will alter the work you contribute (and User:TAnthony just echoed the last point on another talk page). For my own part, I am always happy to use your or my sandbox or other corner of user space if you'd like input on developing edits and contributions, particularly when it comes to language, grammar, style, etc. Just ask.

Happy editing -- MTFBWY. --EEMIV (talk) 15:32, 26 May 2016 (UTC) [reply]

I agree with this section. If my edits could do with improvement, I welcome them as I stated here and to repeat, my edits or anyone else's edits do not somehow translate to my or their "ownership" of the articles, but instead my/their contributions to the page -which are subject to change provided they do not meet up to Wiki standards, which was clearly not the case with me. Your edits as well intention, changed the meaning of the section, in contrast to what the sources clearly said, which Wikipedia does not accept.

Please let me know if I may be any further assistance to you. A happy editing to you too.--NadirAli نادر علی (talk) 03:51, 27 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]

@NadirAli: -- Unfortunately, I read in your response tremendous defensiveness and finger pointing at other editors. While you say, generally, yes you've made errors, that seems a sort of token "yeah, we all mess up" without being anchored to any of the specific antagonistic interactions you've found yourself in over the last few months. I also read in your response some of the same antagonistic tone I'm concerned about. You assert "I never make negative remarks at anyone, unless it was done to me first" -- if you're a university student as your user page asserts, then you're old enough to know that "s/he was mean first!" isn't an acceptable justification for antagonistic or poor behavior, and that's codified as policy at Wikipedia. Sorry to sound trite, but grow up.

"You simply cannot undo another editors work and expect them to add it all over again. Think how you would react if somebody did that to all your work on an article or anywhere else for that matter." -- Across ~49,000 edits over almost 11 years, I've experienced this plenty of times. It suuuuuucks. And it is difficult to selectively restore edits after others have come through to do other work. But, despite your assertion that it's "impossible," it instead is just "difficult" and "time consuming." You can always ask another editor for help, and frankly if you think the task is "impossible," then you have a responsibility to seek more skilled help to avoid getting you caught in intractable edit wars over tiny details. I'm renewing my offer to help you with that if you're ever stuck; just leave a message on my talk page.

You wrote that "No encyclopedia will cite sources that it will contradict." I simply do not understand these words in the order presented. So I don't know what to think of this.

I'm jarred by your suggestion that delving into the arbcom issue "will not harm me [NadirAli] in any way". I infer from that statement that you think I might seek to cause you harm. You also seem a bit paranoid about other editors' motives, referring to "users [who] wish to cover up" some title, and later proposing that I "deliberately left out" some detail in characterizing one of your edit wars. I feel sorry for you if you participate at Wikipedia thinking people are setting out to hurt you or do you ill or screw you over. If you think that's what motivates other editors, then lift yourself above such unworthy motives and focus on content and sources; edit by example. When in doubt, assume good faith, especially when feeling frustrated.

I hope your editing experience improves. --EEMIV (talk) 02:55, 8 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Well I was just looking on ways to improve The Force and what do you know, I get a response on this again. To respond to your argument for the second time, you are not making any point by "linking" this edit dispute to my previous arbcom case. Nor are you making a point by claiming "oh look X,Z and Y edit warred against you too!" implying that I'm automatically on the "wrong side" without properly examining each situation individually. Doing so would be my best definition WP:AGF.

I could do the same by looking up your previous edit wars or dispute history and pointing fingers as you are that you edit warred against such and such. But to repeat you, I am a university student and more mature than that.

If you interpret- or better misinterpret- my response as "blaming other editors" then you're additionally trying to invalidate the sentiments shared by editors such as Szhaider (an Urdu Wikipedia administrator) and Dbachman (an English Wikipedia administrator) and a whole bunch of others. From the way it appears you are trying to imply "every other user including myself who edit warred against you is right and your edits are wrong".

Thanks for your advice, but I don't contribute hard work to Wikipedia to see it blanked out (I can't think of anyone who does). It really should be the responsibility of the user inputting new content not to remove valuable info (not meaning to sounds rude).

To sum it up, my response to you was most of the allegations you have made are simply untrue (such as "ownership") and many users including admins agree. I again admit to wrongdoing, but it does not automatically mean I am obliged to allow edits I see unfit to be made/removed; especially without good reasoning such as contrasting reliable sources. No user is.

The rest of your concerns have been addressed in my previous response. If you wish, you can go back and look at it since you seem to have missed most of it.

Thanks also for your hopes. I think my experience has more than improved considering I have created up to around thirty pages and made thousands of edits in addition to fighting vandalism- which I earned and display an award for with the intention of contributing more. I think that is satisfactory my experience has more than improved or at least that I am on the right path; despite some of my previous mistakes and wrongdoing.

Good night.--NadirAli نادر علی (talk) 03:51, 8 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Edit removed on Star Trek VI: The Undiscovered Country

Why was my edit to the article, regarding the film's visual effects, removed? -- Matthew - (talk · userpage · contributions) 00:40, 18 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I.... don't know. Been using the desktop site on mobile. Perhaps I errantly tapped Revert. I'll check and fix. My b. Sorry. --EEMIV (talk) 01:24, 18 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Please comment on Talk:Pulse (nightclub)

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Shaak Ti

Hi EEMIV,

I see you made Shaak Ti a redirect a while back. Someone then turned it into a single paragraph with no substance. I saw that version, and made it a redirect again, which a new user reverted without comment. I still think this should be a redirect, but in the meanwhile I've reverted to the version which you redirected to the list article. I'd like your opinion on what should be done.

Thanks, --Slashme (talk) 17:33, 7 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for asking. The article lacks an assertion of, or inferrable substance suggesting, real-world notability. The content is just plot summary and a list of appearances. It should be a redirect, and I'll restore it as such with a note on the talk page. --EEMIV (talk) 17:51, 7 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you! I'll take the discussion there. --Slashme (talk) 18:13, 7 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Draft

Here is the draft you requested on The Force talk page. I was going to publish this as it is more organized, but seeing that the current version has relevant information that needs to be included, it will have to be added first before being published. If you are to edit that draft, you should first save this edition in case the edited version does not turn out good and so that we can always go back to this and start again.--NadirAli نادر علی (talk) 06:17, 12 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]

User:NadirAli, At first glance, I see it retains the near-plagiaristic "foam" expression and gravity model, still omits the missing "not" from latter, retains the unnecessarily long intro to Carvelos, retains the disproportionate coverage, still cites just a single source on the topic, and ignores the consensus about the article's organization. This despite me providing you feedback about this issues on 26 May here (and endorsed by User:TAnthony) and/or 7 June here. So, I guess that's my feedback for now on your draft. I'm disinclined to spend more time on it until you address those substantial issues, either in your draft or on the main article talk page. (Also, the notion that I "should first save this edition in case the edited version does not turn out good" is a bit patronizing -- nevermind that, ya know, that's what the View history button is for :-] ). --EEMIV (talk) 19:54, 12 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, you have a point about the view history button. But using the view history button requires going back days, even weeks after several edits, that's why I save the link to original drafts. I will look into it and see what changes are needed myself then, but it'll be sometime.--NadirAli نادر علی (talk) 05:08, 13 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Wait, you wrote "at first glance", you have to read the whole draft. As in "never judge a book by it's cover"--NadirAli نادر علی (talk) 05:11, 13 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]

No. In about 60 seconds, I ascertained egregious errors unaddressed despite being pointed out over a month ago. It isn't worth my time to delve any further unless/until those get taken care of. Then I'm happy to give it more time. --EEMIV (talk) 11:37, 13 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]

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Star Wars Barnstar

The Special Barnstar
For your tireless efforts on The Force (Star Wars) and numerous Star Wars-related articles, I award this Barnstar to you! — TAnthony^Talk 18:50, 11 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]

@TAnthony: -- thanks. My meatspace respite is concluded and I'm back to work, so the semi-retired banner all of a sudden is again more relevant. But I'll keep keeping an eye on things and contributing where I can. --EEMIV (talk) 19:07, 11 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Image

Where is the upload form? I will need to enter it there, but can't seem to exactly find the relevant space for it.--NadirAli نادر علی (talk) 19:44, 15 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Please comment on Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Comics

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Please refrain from this

May I request that you do not involve yourself in discussions that do not exactly concern you unless you have something to contribute to. It would be my equivalent to going over to users you've edit warred with previously and hoping to seek an alliance. As for the repeated "antagonistic" accusation, the user saw your previous message heading on my talk page before I removed it, and not out of sheer "coincidence" as you were hoping to make it out to appear.

I was willing to work with you, but the fact that you insist on bringing up old issues and hoping to gang-up on users who disagree with you, on matters and misunderstandings that you were not involved in to begin with is a borderline of WP:BATTLEGROUND and WP:HOUNDING. Please take care not to repeat it.--NadirAli نادر علی (talk) 21:30, 24 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]

@NadirAli: Considering it appears to me like I'm the aforementioned "user", I thought I ought to clear up one point: I didn't actually notice what EEMIV wrote on your page until you removed it. My addition about OWN was spurred because I checked the history of Philosophy and religion in Star Trek again after I saved my initial comment and noticed that you were the one who created the article. That, taken with your edit summary struck me as a little ownership-y. I had assumed that you, as someone who has been editing a while, knew of WP:OWN, hence my wording of "remind". I hadn't looked over your talk page and its history in depth until you removed that section. ~Cheers, Ten Ton Parasol 23:00, 24 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]

To editor TenTonParasol: the comment was added as an additional edit and prior to me removing it, but I don't see it worthy enough to argue over at least for me. I've given my two cents on the article. I think an AFD can relive it or a request for re-direct.--NadirAli نادر علی (talk) 02:51, 25 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]

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Darth Vader

Hello. Can you take a look at the paragraph proposals for the prequel trilogy section of the Darth Vader article at Talk:Darth Vader#Appearances section. I'm trying to help get it and the original trilogy section rewritten completely on the talk. Thanks. Lord Sjones23 (talk - contributions) 22:31, 24 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Please comment on Talk:1

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What exactly was that "certain length"?

Especially when there are too few refs to warrant multiple columns. With regards to which policy was I "told many times". Policy should be given more weight in all situations.--NadirAli نادر علی (talk) 04:17, 10 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I'm sure someone can give you some more specific input at Template_talk:Reflist. --EEMIV (talk) 15:16, 10 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

The argument I have always followed is that columns are warranted when their use makes the reference section shorter from top to bottom, which is most of the time when we are talking about more than a handful citations. I don't think the template documentation or related policies specify an exact number of citations required/recommended for its use, but certainly once the article has 10 or so, columns are warranted, and most editors seem to use them that way. NadirAli, I know you like to keep ref sections at one column, but what how many citations are your threshold before you would consider 30em? The 18 citations in Jediism seem like a no-brainer to me, but I'm wondering when you would think using 30em is appropriate.— TAnthony^Talk 15:52, 10 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

@TAnthony:, I don't like to keep things in one column. Heck I was the one who sought help in breaking Technology in Star Wars into two reference sections because the column was getting too long. What I disagree with is dividing short columns into sections. There are some articles that had only six refs split into two. That makes it a problem horizontally. And when that happens, we get WP:CLUTTER.--NadirAli نادر علی (talk) 20:20, 11 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Darth Vader, again

Hello again, EEMIV. While I'm trying my best to copyedit the article so we can take it up to GA or FA status, do you have any ideas and suggestions on how we can streamline the depiction section with regards to plot details? Thanks, Lord Sjones23 (talk - contributions) 05:24, 11 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

"Didn't we just leave this party?" I'll try to take a gander tonight or this weekend. --EEMIV (talk) 12:08, 11 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Understood. I just wanted to ask before I probably send this fo a possible peer review and while I agree with most of the recent changes, I wanted to ask about what to do with the depiction section especially with regards to the battle on Mustafar. Meanwhile, I'm also expanding on the Creation and development section with interviews from the cast and crew and adding some potentially useful sources on the talk page. Lord Sjones23 (talk - contributions) 15:11, 11 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Section break

Also, just as a heads up, I've created a peer review here and I have contacted other users User:TAnthony to see if they could work on the article and I've already started some other discussions regarding different aspects as noted on the talk page. Best wishes, Lord Sjones23 (talk - contributions) 21:58, 20 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

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Thanks!

Thank you for your recent edits and Talk contribution on USS Enterprise. Our discussion there needed a 3rd party. StarHOG (Talk) 13:36, 23 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Again thanks for the work you're doing on Enterprise. I've been going around to some of these Star Trek articles and I am just amazed at what I'm finding - articles that for years have succumbed and been over-run by editors adding little bits of trivia here and there until the whole article is a big swamp of disjointed junk. This is all on top of the fact that the original article is usually just a plagiarized cut-and-paste from the Star Trek Encyclopedia or some other such reference. This can all be cleaned up over time, but there is another, more difficult problem in that there are a ton of Star Trek articles out there that overlap like crazy. I mean, we have List of Star Trek Starfleet starships, Lists of Star Trek spacecraft, starship enterprise, USS Enterprise (NCC-1701)....there are a lot of articles that are "lists" like subgroups of all the series, they also have pages of "lists" of episodes. Patrick Stewart has a page, and then there is a page of Patrick Stewart, roles and awards. Why is that a separate thing? StarHOG (Talk) 21:00, 24 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

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You've been awarded the Science Fiction Barnstar!

First time I'm attempting this, but I think your work on USS Enterprise was above and beyond normal editing. I was trying to rework that article and encountered a difference of opinion with another editor. Not only did you respond to a request to have a look at that issue, you invested many days and dozens of edits to help improve the article. I don't think enough credit is given when credit is due, so I'm awarding you this Science Fiction Barnstar. Well deserved, entity!

		The Science Fiction Barnstar
		for outstanding edits on USS Enterprise as well as level headed dispute resolution on same StarHOG (Talk) 18:17, 10 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]

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podracing?

hows the pod racing goin these day — Preceding unsigned comment added by 97.113.168.62 (talk) 04:21, 7 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]

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A barnstar for you!

	The Original Barnstar
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Star Trek reception additions

I read your comments to Starspotter on their talk page and added my own comments as well. I was hoping you would review what I wrote. I *think* we may both be trying to convey the same message but not totally sure. I don't want to be mean or cross any boundaries, especially wiki-politeness, but I feel something had to be said. StarHOG (Talk) 15:26, 24 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

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Is silliness tolerated?:

What's your take on what is going on here? It may be a talk page but IMO it is no place for nonsense. In your experience, do people report this type of behavior and do admins take action? StarHOG (Talk) 21:30, 6 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Harmless goofiness. It's run its course, seems stale, time to move on. --EEMIV (talk) 15:33, 7 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

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Reverted edit on The Force

Hi!

It seems that you seem to have reverted an edit made by me on The Force. As far as I could understand, I felt the word "wield" gave more clarity on the subject and change any preemptive assumptions made by the reader. The word "manipulate" seems to generally leave an impression of exploitation in the readers mind.

Please correct me if I am wrong here.

Best Regards,

Wikiedit01995 ^talk

18:18, 20 July 2022 (UTC)

Sorry for the tardy response User:Wikiedit01995. I think you and are coming at the word choice from pretty much identical perspectives, but we're weighing different connotations of the words. I don't particularly read an exploitative or negative connotation to manipulate, and it reads to me as pretty neutral (kind of like how manipulate is used in the first paragraph of the Scientific analysis section). When I think of wield, though, my mind immediately goes to wielding weapons, and I read a combative or aggressive connotation. I am catching that elsewhere in the article, there's some explicit pushback (vis-a-vis the Force in Rogue One) against the Force being manipulated, though. I suppose a middle path would be to use a super-bland term like use, and I took a swing at a slight rewrite. Side effect is we now have the expression "use the Force" in the lede ;-). However, it's kind of a bland sentence that I'm not sure contributes much to the article. I'm open to just deleting the whole thing. --EEMIV (talk) 15:24, 24 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Outside commentator, but I think it's a vast improvement. As you note, "wield" has weapons connotations. "Manipulate" does have sinister connotations (think of the word "manipulative", which is a wonderful descriptor for Palpatine). "Use" may seem bland, but sometimes bland is a better choice because it's not a loaded term and is more neutral. Plus "use the force" is so appropriate to include. Good choice. oknazevad (talk) 15:36, 24 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Helpful perspective -- thank you! --EEMIV (talk) 15:38, 24 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

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