Talk:York Castle

hanged/hung

I don't know the facts, and a quick Google doesn't help, but were they:

• executed first (whether or not by hanging) and then their bodies hung in chains...
• executed by hanging using chains (unusual but I suppose could happen) ...
• hung alive in chains for a while, akin to being put in the stocks, but survived the experience?

"hung" would be right for the first and third, "hanged" for the second! Clarification is needed, please, whichever of the three is meant. PamD (talk) 14:15, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

I haven't been able to find a definitive account either. However, the entry for Robert Aske, wikiliinked in the York Castle story, suggests that hanging in chains was a method of execution.Acad Ronin (talk) 12:01, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

Actually, what this diff suggests is that you altered the Aske entry from "hung" to "hanged" three minutes before you made the above comment. --GuillaumeTell (talk) 18:30, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gibbet#Display, http://users.bestweb.net/~rg/execution/gibbeting.htm (its reference) and http://blindkat.hegewisch.net/pirates/punish.html#hanging all refer to "hanging in chains" as the display of an already-hung corpse in a gibbet or similar. PamD (talk) 13:58, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

1) Obviously, I did change that one, but only to make it consistent with the usage in the preceeding paragraph, which clearly argues for hanging in chains as a method of execution, and that usage was not mine. 2) That one uses hanging in chains as a method of execution does not prevent it being used as a form of display of corpses post execution. Putting someone in a hanging cage and letting them starve to death would also be a method of execution. 3) The problem is not the general situation, but rather, what was the situation in this particular case, and that I have not been able to pin down definitively. The closest I have come is the wiki link to Roger Aske, which again, was not my formulation. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Acad Ronin (talk • contribs) 00:36, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

OK. I have found two references via Google books. The 1857 reference says Clifford was executed at York, and his body hung in chains. The more recent book (1990), says he was hanged in chains. Those were the only two references I could find. Which do we go with? Acad Ronin (talk) 01:11, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

Writing and linking monarchs - consistency?

In this article we've got:

• William I
• King Henry III
• King Richard III

and more examples of each of the three (ie "King" absent, or outside the link, or inside the link). I've not checked what WP:MOS says about this, but can we at least be consistent within the one article? PamD (talk) 20:48, 10 June 2008 (UTC)

Personally I'd go with not using "King" if they have a number, Richard III feels more correct than King Richard III. But King John is a king to distinguish him from the period when he was Prince John.MidlandLinda (talk) 20:51, 16 October 2008 (UTC)

Expansion...

I've gone through and given the article a thorough scrub through and expansion. There's general consensus in the histories of York Castle on most of the aspects, and I've made extensive use of Butler's official guide to the castle, and Cooper's turn of the century Edwardian volume, which is very strong on the castle's history as a prison. The expansion will need copy editing however! Hchc2009 (talk) 09:31, 7 November 2010 (UTC)

I've had a quick look, and there's lots of good stuff there. I'll give it a copy-edit, probably tomorrow. I do think that the reference to Clifford's Tower at the start of the lead is very misleading - the castle isn't just the medieval tower but the whole complex, including the curtain-wall behind the Castle Museum, the ex-prisons, the Crown Court and the remains of the prison walls on the south bank of the Foss. --GuillaumeTell 22:40, 7 November 2010 (UTC)

I've taken a go at rewriting the start of the lead - see what you think. Hchc2009 (talk) 22:14, 8 November 2010 (UTC)

A couple of problems

I spotted a couple of minor problems while reading through.

1. Under 12th century the wikilink for "special economic role as moneylenders" goes to a non-existent section.
2. Under 17th century reference 91 Twyford indicates multiple pages but start & end page is the same.

Keith D (talk) 23:52, 16 November 2010 (UTC)

• I think the link should work better now.
• Typo fixed.
• Cheers!

Hchc2009 (talk) 19:45, 17 November 2010 (UTC)

Umm, the 12th century wikilink now works, but it points to Economy_of_England_in_the_Middle_Ages#Mid-medieval_growth_.281100-1290.29. Shouldn't the link be to Economy_of_England_in_the_Middle_Ages#Jewish_contribution_to_the_English_economy? --GuillaumeTell 22:29, 17 November 2010 (UTC)

I've had another go at it! Hchc2009 (talk) 22:23, 18 November 2010 (UTC)

Works fine. --GuillaumeTell 22:26, 18 November 2010 (UTC)

GA Review

This review is transcluded from Talk:York Castle/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: Sturmvogel 66 (talk) 03:25, 24 November 2010 (UTC) GA review – see WP:WIAGA for criteria

1. Is it reasonably well written?

   A. Prose quality:

   B. MoS compliance for lead, layout, words to watch, fiction, and lists:

   Fix capitalizations of Pounds, Brown, Cooper. Is there a missing colon in the title of Timbs and Gunn?

Done. Hchc2009 (talk) 22:38, 24 November 2010 (UTC)

1. Is it factually accurate and verifiable?

   A. References to sources:

   B. Citation of reliable sources where necessary:

   C. No original research:

2. Is it broad in its coverage?

   A. Major aspects:

   Is it really appropriate to refer to Victorian prison reform before Victoria ascends the throne in 1837?

Not really! Changed. Hchc2009 (talk) 22:38, 24 November 2010 (UTC)

1. B. Focused:

2. Is it neutral?

   Fair representation without bias:

3. Is it stable?

   No edit wars, etc:

4. Does it contain images to illustrate the topic?

   A. Images are copyright tagged, and non-free images have fair use rationales:

   B. Images are provided where possible and appropriate, with suitable captions:

5. Overall:

   Pass or Fail:

Nice job, fix these few issues and I'll promote. Have you thought about submitting your castle articles for a MilHist A-class review?--Sturmvogel 66 (talk) 03:25, 24 November 2010 (UTC)

I've been meaning to - will give it a go! Cheers! Hchc2009 (talk) 22:38, 24 November 2010 (UTC)

I don't think that you'd have any problems passing it, based on these two articles.--Sturmvogel 66 (talk) 23:29, 24 November 2010 (UTC)

Pogrom of 1190

I've reverted the previous change about the atrocities in 1190, as the source being cited (Butler) doesn't support the alteration. Butler notes that Rabbi Yomtob "called upon his fellow Jews to commit suicide rather than suffer their inevitable murder"; although a "few survivors surrendered on the promise of Christian baptism... they were massacred". Butler doesn't suggest that the mob were attempting forcible conversion, but rather simple murder. Happy to discuss further here, of course! Hchc2009 (talk) 16:43, 24 June 2011 (UTC)

Administrative history

Can anyone shed any light on the administrative history of York Castle? A Vision of Britain Through Time states that it was an extra-parochial area until 1858, and a civil parish after that date. It is shown as part of York Urban Sanitary District, but not of the Municipal Borough of York or, after 1889, the County Borough of York. Online Historical Population Reports for the 1931 census states that, although the castle appears to have been added to the Municipal Borough of York by the Municipal Corporations Act 1835, "it is not locally recognised as forming part thereof." Earlier census reports on that site state that it was governed by a joint committee of the East Riding, North Riding and West Riding county councils, and "though situated in the City of York, is not under the jurisdiction of the Corporation." Census reports after 1931 are not available online until 2001, but it is clear that, following local government reorganisation in 1974, the castle was simply part of the unparished area of York. Does anyone know when the castle became part of the city and county borough? Skinsmoke (talk) 02:56, 8 June 2012 (UTC)

I'd try Thomas Parson's 1911 work for the earlier period, at least; from what I remember, it was very detailed and covered this sort of thing. Drop me an email if you can't find a copy. Hchc2009 (talk) 05:54, 8 June 2012 (UTC)

I don't think the earlier period is the problem. Although the Municipal Corporations Act 1835 appeared to add the castle to the municipal borough, this clearly wasn't what happened in reality, and the castle continued to be governed separately. The change seems to have really occurred sometime between 1931 and 1974. Skinsmoke (talk) 16:22, 2 July 2012 (UTC)

Assessment comment

The comment(s) below were originally left at Talk:York Castle/Comments, and are posted here for posterity. Following several discussions in past years, these subpages are now deprecated. The comments may be irrelevant or outdated; if so, please feel free to remove this section.

. Requires infobox Requires addition of inline references using one of the {{Cite}} templates Requires copy-edit for WP:MOS Keith D 11:54, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

Last edited at 11:54, 5 October 2007 (UTC). Substituted at 11:05, 30 April 2016 (UTC)

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WP:CRYSTALBALL

Regarding "English Heritage has submitted a planning application for a new structure...", the WP:CRYSTALBALL policy applies here: "individual scheduled or expected future events should be included only if the event is notable and almost certain to take place..." - neither applies in this case. Hchc2009 (talk) 19:57, 5 August 2016 (UTC)

Lead image

Current image

Suggested image

How would folks feel about swapping the current lead image with the one on the bottom right? It's taken from a distance so you get a better feel for the size of the tower and the motte. The tower itself takes up less of the suggested image, but you can see the entrance and the route up. Richard Nevell (talk) 17:03, 10 November 2019 (UTC)

Inflation

In the section "19th and 20th centuries" the figure of £8,800 in 1825 (£665,000 in 2009) does not seem to match the citation given. This amount on the measuring worth site for this would be £538,500 in 2009 but the citation title and archive version of it indicate that the calculator tool only covered as far as 1830 when this was added to Wikipedia (values from earlier dates would have to be calculated manually using the data sets). And is there a reason why the article has fixed 2009 figures instead of using the inflation templates to automatically update the equivalent values. EdwardUK (talk) 04:29, 5 July 2020 (UTC)

{{Inflation|index}} templates inserted instead.--AntientNestor (talk) 10:25, 16 April 2022 (UTC)

Clifford's Tower?

We don't explain why it's known as Clifford's Tower. Why is it? --Dweller (talk) Old fashioned is the new thing! 09:59, 2 November 2021 (UTC)

The article says At the end of the 16th century, however, the Clifford family (Earls of Cumberland), became the hereditary constables of the castle, and Clifford's Tower took its name from the family at around this time.

Wording to this effect has been present since the article was greatly expanded in 2010.

References

Richard Nevell (talk) 11:08, 16 April 2022 (UTC)

Thanks. --Dweller (talk) Old fashioned is the new thing! 19:51, 25 April 2022 (UTC)

Map

Wouldn't it be useful to add a second map showing the exact location of the castle/tower in York? All the map of location within North Yorkshire really shows us is where York is. Gabrielbodard (talk) 08:02, 16 March 2023 (UTC)

I certainly think so, so I've had a go and added one in the first section after the lead. An alternative would be to change the infobox to use a map from Open Street Map which will zoom in further, as is used on the page for Buckton Castle. I thought this might be useful as we can include other points of interest, specifically the city walls (I adapted it from the York city walls article) but It looks a bit busy, so maybe it doesn't quite work.

On a related note, there's also a 1611 map by John Speed which includes the castle. It would be nice to include, but to get much out of it it might need to be quite large. Richard Nevell (talk) 08:50, 16 March 2023 (UTC)