Talk:Violence against transgender people

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This article was nominated for deletion on 2007 November 25. The result of the discussion was No consensus.

On 9 December 2022, it was proposed that this article be moved to Transphobic violence. The result of the discussion was Moved to Violence against transgender people.

Rename the article to "transphobic violence"

I've almost never heard the term "trans bashing". It doesn't seem to be a very common term.

Could we rename the article to "transphobic violence" or similar?

A quick Google reveals that it's not very common and "transphobic violence" is much more common:

"trans bashing" 15,600 results
"transgender bashing" 1,280 results
"transphobic violence" 55,100 results
"anti-trans violence" 20,900 results
"anti-transgender violence" 39,100 results

It would also bring it in line with the category: Category:Transphobic violence.

Thanks. --Wickedterrier (talk) 18:05, 11 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Although raw Google web hit counts are unreliable (they're sometimes off by quite a bit, apparently because they're just rough estimates), Google Scholar hit counts are generally accurate (if you page through to the last pages of results, as many articles indeed turn us as the results count claimed), and do also show "transphobic violence" to be orders of magnitude more common than "trans bashing". Paging through Google Books results (and looking at Ngrams, where "trans bashing" is too rare to even plot) suggests the same thing. "Transphobic violence" is, as you say, also in line with the category name. My main concern is whether a rename would change the scope of the article, which is currently scoped as including e.g. verbal abuse and hate speech (in like with "gay bashing", which also includes verbal abuse, and which seems to have been an inspiration for the current article title), as well as media depictions and bathroom laws that contribute to increasing harassment, which some might object to calling "violence". However, their role in promoting violence might be enough to retain them (the sections are small anyway) in a renamed article; the current article's section on bathroom bills, for example, could probably be condensed, partly offloaded to Bathroom bill and partly and worked into the section on harassment in bathrooms, especially with more refs which connect bathroom bills to increased harassment in bathrooms. -sche (talk) 18:43, 11 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move 9 December 2022

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: Moved to Violence against transgender people. Rough consensus to move and to re-scope the article as needed. There were two proposal with similar levels of support. Per WP:OTHEROPTIONS, another move request with the other alternative can be started at any time. (closed by non-admin page mover) Vpab15 (talk) 22:09, 29 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Trans bashing → Transphobic violence – Per an earlier discussion, "transphobic violence" is a far more WP:COMMONNAME to describe this than "trans bashing." XTheBedrockX (talk) 07:56, 9 December 2022 (UTC)— Relisting. —usernamekiran (talk) 15:15, 19 December 2022 (UTC)— Relisting. —usernamekiran (talk) 17:06, 30 December 2022 (UTC) — Relisting. >>> Extorc.talk 18:53, 13 January 2023 (UTC)— Relisting. >>> Extorc.talk 15:35, 21 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose per WP:PRECISE. "Violence is the use of physical force so as to injure, abuse, damage, or destroy." The scope of this article is much broader than actual violence. Rreagan007 (talk) 20:40, 9 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

"Bashing" also implies physical violence so maybe that doesn't make a case in either direction? --DanielRigal (talk) 22:22, 9 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I'm open to other alternatives. Maybe something like "Hostility towards transgender people". Rreagan007 (talk) 19:36, 10 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Bashing is very frequently used figuratively, but "violence" isn't. Red Slash 23:14, 31 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Weak oppose. One point in favour of the current name is that it parallels our existing article on gay bashing however Jew bashing redirects to antisemitism so it is not like we have any consistent naming precedent on "bashing" articles. XTheBedrockX is correct to point out that this is not a particularly widely used term (much less so that "gay bashing") so I understand the desire to rename. I'm just not sure that the suggested replacement name is ideal. In particular I worry that using the word "transphobic" is only going to attract disruptive attention from people who want to erase or minimise that word. I'd be prepared to weakly support a rename to "Violence against transgender people". I'd also be prepared to support a merge with Transgender inequality, due to the overlap, although I'm aware that that could be a lot of work. I don't think the current name is too bad but there is scope for improvement. --DanielRigal (talk) 22:22, 9 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I wouldn't mind it being renamed to "Violence against transgender people." If nothing else, it at least aligns with Violence against transgender people in the United States. XTheBedrockX (talk) 23:11, 9 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Comment. I'd also be inclined to support Violence against transgender people, as that would be a child article of Violence against LGBT people. It's worth looking at all of the related articles, and trying to come up with titles and scopes that cover everything, without gaps, and with minimal redundancy. Gay bashing consists of a summary style paragraph on Violence against LGBT people and content on LGBT bullying that should really have its own article. "Violence" in the sources is quite broadly defined, so if we Violence against LGBT people, Violence against transgender people, and LGBT bullying, there shouldn't be any gaps.--Trystan (talk) 00:15, 11 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Note: WikiProject LGBT studies has been notified of this discussion. —usernamekiran (talk) 15:15, 19 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Weak support "Trans-bashing" sound far too much like slang and uncyclopedic. I'm actually having a hard time finding the word actually used in a non-colloquial context. And I've seen it applied widely to anything vaguely transphobic, not in the narrower sense meant here. "Transpohobic violence" is better, but I see that it narrows it perhaps too much (although the meaning of "violence" can include non-physical assault). Perhaps "Transphobic bullying"? Walrasiad (talk) 01:20, 20 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Addressing only the "hard time finding" comment: I searched Google news, and the first page of results is full of articles with this term. (I have my search options set to 100 results per page; you may have to page-forward ten times if you use the default setting.) Not sure how you view "colloquial", but as new sources, these results would count as reliable sources for determining COMMONNAME. Thanks, Mathglot (talk) 22:18, 29 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I'm not sure we need this article at all. The lead sounds like it is about individual acts of violence against trans people, but the body doesn't follow through on this. Such content can exist at Violence against transgender people in the United States. The body comments on laws (including synthesis, like the U.N. section), healthcare and societal discrimination. But this content has a place at Legal status of transgender people or Transgender health care or Transgender inequality (mental health issues from societal discrimination/bigotry) etc.
It appears to me that most sources used here don't mention "trans bashing" and the article falls into synthesis. I don't think a typical reader would be able to explain the article's scope is or how it differs from Transgender inequality or Transphobia. I'm not sure there's any page title that would work; I'd recommend a broader discussion about setting the scope for overlapping trans-related articles at WikiProject LGBT studies. — Bilorv (talk) 21:42, 22 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Support per nom. Sounds like a more encyclopedic name and seems like the common name too ("trans bashing" doesn't show up on an ngram at all, whereas the proposed title does). — Amakuru (talk) 13:18, 28 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Comment There are quite a few articles with names of the form, "Anti-FOO sentiment". The great majority of these are about countries or nationalities, but religions and ethnicities also appear. But the problem with anti-trans sentiment and suggestions like Hostility towards transgender people, is that they seem too broad, and perhaps would work better as redirects to Transphobia, if they are needed at all. Mathglot (talk) 22:52, 29 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Note: WikiProject Discrimination has been notified of this discussion. —usernamekiran (talk) 17:06, 30 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

weak support with the understanding that this implies a rescoping of the article around violence specifically Red Slash 23:14, 31 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Relisting comment While there is consensus that the current title is not ideal, there seem to be two proposals with support.

One is to move to the nom suggested Transphobic violence.

Other is to move to Violence against transgender people suggested by DanielRigal.

I would like to see broader consensus in favor of one before moving.>>> Extorc.talk 18:53, 13 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Support: I find the current name to not be encyclopedic. --Spekkios (talk) 00:26, 14 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Comment. If this article title is changed, then the article scope will have to be restricted, as words are not violence. So references to things like harassment and hate speech will have to be removed from the article. Rreagan007 (talk) 01:53, 14 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The United Nations defines violence against women as "any act of gender-based violence that results in, or is likely to result in, physical, sexual, or mental harm or suffering to women, including threats of such acts, coercion or arbitrary deprivation of liberty, whether occurring in public or in private life" (italics added) WHO, "Violence Against Women"; For infants and younger children, violence mainly involves child maltreatment (i.e. physical, sexual and emotional abuse and neglect) at the hands of parents and other authority figures (italics added) WHO, "Violence Against Children" Rotideypoc41352 (talk · contribs) 05:12, 17 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
This definition of violence definitely fits the scope of this article, I think. Violence isn't always necessarily physical, and I had trouble putting that into exact words, but these UN definitions certainly help. XTheBedrockX (talk) 15:12, 18 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Weak support. Bashing includes both bullying and violence, but the word bashing is not as often used. A split between Violence against transgender people and Bullying of transgender people would be the most ideal, but moving as proposed would also be acceptable. Marcocapelle (talk) 11:30, 21 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose, not entirely sure this would be an accurate title.--Ortizesp (talk) 07:27, 24 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.