Talk:There was no such thing as Palestinians

More general idea

It would be good to have an article about denial of the existence of a Palestinian people in general. Synotia (moan) 09:36, 28 February 2023 (UTC)

Yeah, where this stupid article could become two sentences which is as much as it deserves. Zero^talk 10:43, 28 February 2023 (UTC)

It could rather be a section of a new article. Synotia (moan) 16:26, 28 February 2023 (UTC)

@Synotia, @Zero0000: Anyone who wants to culture such material can see here. Iskandar323 (talk) 18:49, 28 February 2023 (UTC)

@Zero There is no need for this sort of language.

You may not like it, but it's not for you alone to decide what "this stupid article" "deserves". You aren't engaging with other editors in good faith; you are merely throwing around insults. Your tone is so vague that I can't actually work out what you're objecting to. You should try to communicate with other editors in respectful language, and in enough detail as to allow them to make sense of your complaints.

Finally: a talk page is not a place for you to preach your political beliefs. It exists to facilitate the smooth management of an article. Show some respect for the community. Foxmilder (talk) 07:58, 19 November 2023 (UTC)

@Foxmilder: Whereas I commented on the quality of an article, as all editors are entitled to do, you commented on the motivation of a person, which is strictly forbidden by policy and likely to get you blocked if you continue. Zero^talk 10:35, 19 November 2023 (UTC)

In retrospect, you are right with regard to my assumptions regarding your motivations. All of that was needlessly personal.

I was annoyed because I couldn’t make sense of what you were very strongly criticising, but that’s no excuse.

My apologies for not assuming good faith — and I appreciate this may sound somewhat ironic. Foxmilder (talk) 00:34, 20 November 2023 (UTC)

scolding anyone in that tone, especially a fellow adult, will not make you popular anywhere; no matter the underlying feelings. Synotia (moan) 19:24, 20 November 2023 (UTC)

Later clarifications

This sentence at the end of the section

Meir's description of Mandatory Palestine and Palestinian citizenship extending to Transjordan was incorrect.

The sentence is speaking in Wikipedia’s voice that Meir’s description was “incorrect”, and that this is verifiable from the reference. But that is the strangest reference I’ve ever seen on any Wiki. This seems like original research. Regardless, something is wrong here. But I don’t have a clue as to where to start to fix it. Artificial Nagger (talk) 04:59, 9 May 2023 (UTC)

Agreed. This article is not sufficient enough to stand on its own merits. There is already an appropriate separate section in the Golda Meir main article: Golda Meir#"There was no such thing as Palestinians" and this article does not state much more.

Definitely also think there should be an article on general denialism on Palestinian identity. Just not sure if this meets muster to have an article all on its own. Mistamystery (talk) 16:00, 14 October 2023 (UTC)

Perspective

Would be interesting to put the very well knows quote of Zuheir_Mohsen, a Palestinian leader of the (PLO) between 1971 and 1979, who have said, in a Dutch Newspaper, nearly the same thing : https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Zuheir_Mohsen. Gallycyborg (talk) 10:26, 22 November 2023 (UTC)

He did not say the same thing - he was talking about Pan-Arabism. More importantly, he was a not-particularly-senior member of the PLO. His quote is only well known because anti-Palestinian commentators have amplified it, despite it being an extreme fringe viewpoint.

What would be more relevant here is the parallel with the claims that there is "no such thing as a Jewish people" - i.e. the claim that Jews are a religious group not an ethnic group. See for example Racial conceptions of Jewish identity in Zionism.

Onceinawhile (talk) 00:03, 31 January 2024 (UTC)

1. The Wikipedia requirement of a Neutral Point of View which is fair and proportionate should necessitate that this article discuss the extensive attempts to deligitimize approx 3,500 years of continuous Jewish habitation in the land, and the widespread denial of Jewish history, including Holocaust denial. Otherwise the article may be expected to misleadingly create the impression in the reader that this is a one sided discussion.

2. In order to present a Neutral Point of View it is also necessary to represent the many sources, including numerous respected Arab voices, that have agreed that there is no such thing as Palestinians as a distinct cultural or national identity with any history prior to the 1960s.

3. A dispute over rightful ownership of a land, and claims of a historically true, distinct cultural and national identity, are not resolved in an unbiased way when the question cannot even be asked or investigated from a historical or legal aspect, where a public article on the matter quotes those who disdain the question, presenting to the reader as though the discussion itself is offensive and invalid. This Wikipedia article, though I will assume good faith, presents a one-sided view, and may well mislead the reader, as well as impeding the pursuit of a factual assessment, or of clear information with which to consider the matter.

Since the article is locked I cannot add the relevant quotations where they belong, but I will attach a few of them here as point of reference for those with permissions and knowledge of how to properly edit the article. If there's another method to seek repair of this article, I would be happy to be informed of such.

This is the full relevant quote, as previously mentioned on the Talk page for this article, from Zahir Muhsein, Executive Committee Member of the Palestine Liberation Organisation, when he spoke on March 31, 1977 to Dutch newspaper Trouw.

"The Palestinian people does not exist. The creation of a 'Palestinian' state is only a means for continuing our struggle against the state of Israel for our Arab unity. In reality today there is no difference between Jordanians, Palestinians, Syrians and Lebanese. Only for political and tactical reasons do we speak today about the existence of a 'Palestinian' people, since Arab national interests demand that we posit the existence of a distinct 'Palestinian people' to oppose Zionism. For tactical reasons, Jordan, which is a sovereign state with defined borders, cannot raise claims to Haifa and Jaffa, while as a 'Palestinian', I can undoubtedly demand Haifa, Jaffa, Beer-Sheva and Jerusalem. However, the moment we reclaim our right to all of Palestine, we will not wait even a minute to unite Palestine and Jordan."

Here is a link to the original Dutch article: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1LLQ_bMFed4-_zvBdbJjvivh2sHPzMEaL/view?pli=1

Here are other pertinent quotations which could be added to this article to provide a more balanced and neutral view of this topic, so an not to by mistake only present one side.

Arab leader and educator Auni Bey Abdul-Hadi told the British Peel Commission in 1937: "There is no such country as Palestine. ‘Palestine’ is a term the Zionists invented. There is no Palestine in the Bible. Our country was for centuries part of Syria. ‘Palestine’ is alien to us. It is the Zionists who introduced it."

Abdul Hamid Sharif, Prime Minister of Jordan declared, in 1980, “The Palestinians and Jordanians do not belong to different nationalities. They hold the same Jordanian passports, are Arabs and have the same Jordanian culture.”

Distinguished Arab-American Princeton University historian Philip Hitti testified before the Anglo-American Committee, “There is no such thing as ‘Palestine’ in history.”

According to Arab-American columnist Joseph Farah, “Palestine has never existed – before or since – as an autonomous entity. It was ruled alternately by Rome, by Islamic and Christian crusaders, by the Ottoman Empire, and briefly by the British after World War I. The British agreed to restore at least part of the land to the Jewish people as their homeland. There was no language known as Palestinian. There was no distinct Palestinian culture. There has never been a Palestine governed by the Palestinians. Palestinians are Arabs, indistinguishable from Jordanians (another recent invention), Syrians, Lebanese, Iraqis, etc.”

Additionally a balanced view of this complex topic should perhaps include the fact that this is not the first, nor second nation that the PLO/Fatah has attempted to supplant arguing that they are the rightful owners of the land, but is rather the third attempt. The PLO/Fatah organization led by Yasser Arafat previously attempted a takeover of Jordan, see Black September https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_September , after which Jordan went to war to stop this attempted seizure of their country, and expelled the PLO to Lebanon. There again the PLO/Fatah attempted to lay claim to Lebanon, causing a decade of civil war, turning much of Beirut into terror infrastructure, and seeking to create a "State within a State", with the help of Arab Liberation Front, Palestinian Islamic Jihad, Al-Qassam Brigades, Al-Aqsa Martyr's Brigades, Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine EO, and Democratic Front for the Liberation of Palestine.

It seems reasonable that an article sharing information on the topic of Palestinian claims to cultural or national identity would not only present one-sided views, but would at least also include quotes from Palestinians disputing these claims before they were implemented, as well as other attempts by the same organizations to lay claim to other countries, which is certainly relevant. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lebanese_Civil_War

Here is a video of Mossab Hassan Yousef who grew up in Arab towns in Israel, who is the son of one of Hamas's founders, stating vehemently: "None of it is real, including Palestine. It's only in your head. None of it is existential. Palestine was never born. How can you free it? It was never there. It's just a colonial entity, and some people choose to make it into a national identity, and this parrot has just been repeating Hamas propaganda." Are any of the numerous quotes this Arab man who grew up directly in the region in discussion, with first hand experience not just with the general population and its aspirations, but extensively and intimately with present day Palestinian leadership, sharing his well informed views from his perspective on whether the Palestinian concept is an authentic cultural or national identity not relevant to this article? https://x.com/GUY_BM370/status/1788318351518777359 Maradakia (talk) 05:31, 3 June 2024 (UTC)

Cattan quote

The quote from his book does demonstrate an extreme response, but I'm not sure of the value of including it here. It is part of a rant with clear POV, and reads into the quote elements that are not there (as he segues in the same sentence into a criticism of a book by another author). – SJ + 19:02, 29 November 2023 (UTC)

Merge to Golda Meir?

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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While this is a quote that occasionally comes up in popular debates and gets interpreted as suits the argument (almost always as a straw man), this is not Wikiquote and it doesn't seem to have independent historical significance. It was a memorable point of controversy in Meir's political career, worth a mention in her bio; but this should probably merge into her article. – SJ + 19:02, 29 November 2023 (UTC)

I agree. Significant post-dated critical commentary on a quote (widely cited out of context, mind you) does not warrant a page of this size.

There’s already a mention in her article and an expansion of that section should be sufficient.

Mistamystery (talk) 22:07, 29 November 2023 (UTC)

Disagree - the quote is highly significant in its own right. Notwithstanding the high quality of the sources used in the article, note that in the last two years this article has been read almost 150,000 times. That statistic alone confirms the clear notability of this topic. Onceinawhile (talk) 23:55, 30 January 2024 (UTC)

Agree to merge, it's entirely undue giving this much copy to a quote. Per WP:ONUS, just because something is noteworthy it does not mean it deserves its own article. TarnishedPath^talk 09:14, 3 June 2024 (UTC)

Merge per Sj. Lightburst (talk) 18:10, 3 June 2024 (UTC)

Merge per SJ, it is significant, but not significant enough for a separate article. FortunateSons (talk) 13:09, 4 June 2024 (UTC)

Oppose - For now, anyway. I'm having difficulty mapping the reasons provided to WP:MERGEREASON. Another mapping seems to be to WP:NOTMERGE, specifically "Merging should be avoided if: 2. The separate topics could be expanded into longer standalone (but cross-linked) articles", which resembles a description of what has presumably already happened in this case and will continue to happen over time, as is the norm with Wikipedia articles. Onceinawhile's statistic is a consideration too, together with this information that appears to indicate that readership is still at a relatively elevated level, presumably because of the ongoing war. Sean.hoyland (talk) 15:40, 4 June 2024 (UTC)

Oppose – It seems reasonable to argue that this phrase doesn't deserve its own article but if anything it should be merged into a page about "Denial of Palestinian peoplehood/nationality/identity". I don't believe merging to Golda Meir makes sense. IOHANNVSVERVS (talk) 16:46, 4 June 2024 (UTC)

The article is about Meir. She’s the primary source of notability. If it was some random who said the same things we wouldn’t be having this discussion, because this article wouldn’t exist. TarnishedPath^talk 13:34, 6 June 2024 (UTC)

This article is not about Meir and your statement that "If it was some random who said the same things we wouldn’t be having this discussion, because this article wouldn’t exist." is not true at all – see the bride is beautiful but she is married to another man. IOHANNVSVERVS (talk) 13:38, 6 June 2024 (UTC)

That article discusses a common phrase, broadly used. This article discusses quotes from Meir specifically. No Meir making said quotes no article about Meir making said quotes. TarnishedPath^talk 13:55, 6 June 2024 (UTC)

Oppose merging to Golda Meir - putting all this content on the biography article about her would be WP:UNDUE for the biography article about her. This woman's life was about more than just this one quote. Neutral on merging to Palestinian identity#Denial of Palestinian identity. Neutral because it quite possibly would also be WP:UNDUE for that article, but maybe not, as this quote is a famous example of denial of Palestinian identity. I'd be curious what editors of that article think about it. But I would think if that target is considered, there should be a new merge proposal, and per WP:MERGEPROP, the discussion should happen at the merge destination article not the origin article. Levivich (talk) 15:32, 13 June 2024 (UTC)

Oppose consistent with the reasons above. Onceinawhile (talk) 19:19, 13 June 2024 (UTC)

Merge to Palestinian identity#Denial of Palestinian identity. It's not a significant aspect of coverage of Meir. ꧁Zanahary꧂ 18:52, 13 July 2024 (UTC)

Strong oppose widely covered in RS and received significant coverage per notability guideline. Makeandtoss (talk) 19:35, 13 July 2024 (UTC)

Oppose largely along the lines of Levivich. It would be undue on the biography, and if an alternative merge target is considered preferable, it should be discussed there. Palestinian identity is certainly an option. Iskandar323 (talk) 20:30, 13 July 2024 (UTC)

NB – this article consistently gets 2x as many pageviews as Palestinian identity. Onceinawhile (talk) 10:40, 15 July 2024 (UTC)

Oppose. Each article stands alone with their own topic and citations. Hogo-2020 (talk) 08:17, 15 July 2024 (UTC)

Merge, Golda has probably hundreds of notable quotes, I haven't seen articles for any other of them. That's exactly what Wiktionary is for. We can some up the quote in two sentences on the main article HaOfa (talk) 15:23, 24 July 2024 (UTC)

Hundreds of notably racist and vaguely genocidal quotes? If so, I'm clearly not reading the right stuff. Iskandar323 (talk) 17:30, 24 July 2024 (UTC)

I think it deserves more than two sentences, but not a whole article. TarnishedPath^talk 00:03, 25 July 2024 (UTC)

Comment, I've listed this for a close at Wikipedia:Closure requests#Talk:There was no such thing as Palestinians#Merge to Golda Meir? TarnishedPath^talk 00:38, 4 August 2024 (UTC)

Oppose - she's not the only person who has said this, it is a broader topic. FourPi (talk) 03:16, 17 August 2024 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Accidental revert / Browser error

@IOHANNVSVERVS@Clammodest my apologies, there seems to have been a browser error on my end and I did not intend to make this revert on this page. Just clarifying as the justification was meant for another edit and not this one. IO thanks for handling. Mistamystery (talk) 01:00, 31 January 2024 (UTC)