Talk:The Idolmaster 2

Review

Here's a review that may be helpful in the future.--十八 11:00, 6 March 2013 (UTC)

Merge with The Idolmaster

I kinda feel that having infoboxes pertaining to the different media seperate between this article and The Idolmaster over whether they are loosely connected to this specific game or not is just confusing. Considering the lack of actual information about the game besides a story section, and how all information about the other games and manga/anime adaptations are on the other article, I suggest that the info on this page be merged with The Idolmaster to treat it more like a franchise article. Wonchop (talk) 20:19, 29 April 2013 (UTC)

I disagree with merging the two because from a gameplay point of view, the two games are somewhat different. I am also planning on expanding the article for Idolmaster 2 and writing an article for Shiny Festa when summer hits. Instead, I think perhaps the information about the manga, anime, and whatnot that aren't explicitly an adaptation of Imas 2 should be split into a new, separate franchise article. -- クラウド６６８ 22:58, 29 April 2013 (UTC)

I would also disagree with the merge. This article may be sparse now, but it has a large amount of room for expansion, including gameplay, development, the various manga adaptations pertaining specifically to Idolmaster 2, and reception. It's not rare for sequels of series to get their own articles, too.--十八 23:06, 29 April 2013 (UTC)

Raising simulation / life simulation?

I have two issues with the term "raising simulation" and the link to Life simulation game, which currently occur together three times in this article.

1. What does "raising simulation" mean? The term is not common in the English language. A Google search gives many results that talk about pet-raising simulation. Are we saying this is like a pet-raising simulation game, but with "idols", rather than pets?

I asked for clarification on this point and Cloud668 added the word training and removed the tag. (My apologies for attributing that to Juhachi in this edit summary.)

By "raising simulation" do we mean "the player is in charge of training"? The term "the player is in charge of training" is a lot clearer than "raising simulation", so maybe we should just stick to that.

I note that Zellfaze guessed that we might mean "social simulation", but this was reverted with no explanation by Juhachi.

2. This game isn't really a life simulation. Juhachi says "uh, no. The lead sentence of life simulation game makes it pretty clear that this is what this game is; this game simulates the life of an idol and her producer". That misses the point of a life simulation game. I could say that The Secret of Monkey Island simulates the life of a young man with dreams of becoming a pirate, but that wouldn't make it a life simulation. Life simulation games are about the virtual organisms, what makes them tick, how they relate to other virtual organisms etc.

Yaris678 (talk) 10:07, 2 April 2014 (UTC)

In the broadest sense, The Idolmaster boils down to being a life simulation game. It is essentially, as you say, "like a pet-raising simulation game, but with "idols", rather than pets", because the player controls the (working) life of one or more idols, all the way down to what they wear. The player trains the idols, rewards them, and gets them to do things for them, such as sing and dance in skimpy outfits, all for the sole benefit of the player. That is the whole point of the game. More specifically, these games literally simulate the life of an idol and what she goes through in her aim for stardom. I think it would be a rather narrow definition of life simulation games if you were to exclude a game like this with such a gameplay, especially when it's closest to pet-raising games in terms of gameplay. In fact, one of the influences for developing the series was Derby Owners Club, a horse raising and racing game.--十八 10:26, 2 April 2014 (UTC)

If this is the case, then we need to better explain this. As I say, the term "raising simulation" is not common in the English language. If this is the best name for this type of game then one option would be to create an article that explains this. Perhaps the article would also explain that this type of game is popular in Japan.

Yaris678 (talk) 10:53, 2 April 2014 (UTC)

Just to be clear, digital pet basically describes everything that is found in a typical Idolmaster game, including all eight examples of common features listed in the article. I guess "training simulation" could be an alternative to describe what The Idolmaster is, but in no way do I think there would need to be a separate article for it, since it would largely overlap with life simulation game and digital pet.--十八 11:16, 2 April 2014 (UTC)

Perhaps it would be best to just not call it a Life Simulation or Digital Pet game and just note that its ganeplay bears resemblance to most Digital Pet games. I highly doubt that we could find a citation for such a thing, but it would clear up a lot of confusion I'm sure. Whatever we do the "raising game" language has to be changed. It makes no sense at all. Also Yaris678 thank you for pinging me on this. :3 Zell Faze (talk) 11:33, 2 April 2014 (UTC)

Suggestion

Here's a suggestion that might be a good compromise. I am open to other suggestions though!

Infobox: Put genre as "Rhythm with aspects of digital pet"

Lead: Just say "is a Japanese video game in The Idolmaster series"

Gameplay section: Say "The Idolmaster 2 is very similar to a digital pet game in the way that the player interacts with and trains the idols. The player assumes the role of a producer who works at 765 Production (765 Pro), a talent agency that represents twelve pop idols who made their debuts half a year before the beginning of the story."

Yaris678 (talk) 15:58, 2 April 2014 (UTC)

Oh wow, I never expected this much attention from April Fools. Yaris, I was hoping that the changing the lead to go a bit more into the gameplay would clarify the focus of the game, so I apologize if it did not have that effect.

Personally, I would rather not have to brand this as a digital pet game in the infobox; I don't mind under the gameplay section, though. Fundamentally, I think this game is still a simulation game, as it is simulating a job (in a way, I don't think it's too different from games like Farming Simulator and Surgeon Simulator 2013). I think we can possibly just link it to simulation video game, as this page on the franchise website calls the first game Aidoru Ikusei Shimyurēshon (アイドル育成シミュレーション, Idol "raising" simulation, emphasis mine) (just Aidoru Yunitto Purodūsu (アイドルユニットプロデュース, Idol Unit Produce) for this one). There's the problem that the simulation genre is very broad, but I don't think that would justify removing it entirely. -- クラウド６６８ 17:47, 2 April 2014 (UTC)

@Yaris678: I don't think mentioning its similarities to a digital pet game in the article would make sense unless a reliable source already made this comparison; in short, it'd be WP:SYNTH. I just brought it up to explain that Idolmaster games are definitely simulation games in some form, as Cloud also explained above.--十八 21:35, 2 April 2014 (UTC)

So what do you suggest? The phrase "raising simulation" currently appears in three places in the article and is not explained anywhere in the article or the linked article. Yaris678 (talk) 11:25, 4 April 2014 (UTC)

At the very least we need to remove the terminology "raising simulation". Could we change it to just simulation at least for the moment? Zell Faze (talk) 17:45, 4 April 2014 (UTC)

I think just simulation is good. -- クラウド６６８ 19:18, 5 April 2014 (UTC)

Maybe that's the best solution in the very short term. In the slightly longer term, I think it would be good if there was something somewhere that talked about the genre of games that is a generalisation of digital pets to non-pets, such as race horses and manufactured-pop musicians. Perhaps that would be best done as a section of the digital pet article. Yaris678 (talk) 11:04, 7 April 2014 (UTC)

I notice that no one implemented the short-term solution. Never mind. I have now implemented the solution that I think will be better in the long term. This solution actually explains what "raising simulation" means. Yaris678 (talk) 21:57, 22 April 2014 (UTC)

This looks to me to be an acceptable solution. Thank you! Zell Faze (talk) 12:52, 24 April 2014 (UTC)

Y Thank you. Excellent. Looks like this issue is resolved. Yaris678 (talk) 16:59, 24 April 2014 (UTC)

It kind of feels like that edit to digital pets could be a bit WP:OR, but I must admit I don't have an alternative solution. -- クラウド６６８ 02:22, 25 April 2014 (UTC)