Talk:Swaminarayan Sampradaya/Archive 1
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| Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 |
Schismatic groups
I would want to know as to the following of each in terms of numbers. Its important as if the following is the same then the views should be represented equally. Wikidās ॐ 08:25, 10 May 2008 (UTC)
New information
Keeping in mind some information has been transplanted here from Swaminarayan, the article now gives information on both the Faith (or belief) and Succession. Should the article title be changed to reflect the same - Swaminarayan Faith and Succession or Swaminarayan Hinduism? Around The Globeसत्यमेव जयते 10:43, 1 July 2009 (UTC)
- I strongly agree. The name of the article must reflect the information. I think Swaminarayan Hinduism would be a suitable name. Swaminarayan Faith and Succession, to me at least, feels like there is a bit of repetition. The faith includes succession, if you see what I mean. World (talk • contributions) 18:34, 3 July 2009 (UTC)
Sources
There are a number of academic and journalistic sources that provide an (at times highly critical) analysis of the evolution and social function of the faith. These should be covered in this article, and some use of the would be essential, should it be nominated at any future stage for Good Article status:
- Rohit Barot, 'Religion, migration and wealth creation in the Swaminarayan Movement', in Bryceson, Deborah and Ulla Vuorela (eds), The Transnational Family".
- Rohit Barot has written books that would also prbably touch on the subject and should be checked at some stage.
- David Hardiman, "Class base of Swaminarayan sect", Economic and Political Weekly, 10 September 1988 (subscription needed, or library access)
- Makrand Mehta, controversial article in the Gujarati-language journal of the Centre for Social Studies, Surat, 1986
— Preceding unsigned comment added by Hamiltonstone (talk • contribs) 8 july 2009 (UTC)
Title
Name does not sound right. I propose it be moved to either Swaminarayan Faith or Succession of Swaminarayan. Wheredevelsdare (talk) 14:09, 15 May 2008 (UTC)
I agree, I like Swaminarayan Faith Juthani1 tcs 19:30, 15 May 2008 (UTC)
- You can look up on how exactly this works with other groups. I think a good example is Bahá'í Faith article. Its featured and can used as an example to where to go from here. Wikidās ॐ 20:27, 15 May 2008 (UTC)
Done - Wheredevelsdare (talk) 22:19, 16 May 2008 (UTC)
- Should "Faith" and/or "Sect" in the title be capitalized? I could be wrong, but it seems to me that only Swaminarayan should be capitalized, since "faith" is not the only formal term used for the tradition, and is used for the article to make the distinction between the faith and the religious leader. --Shruti14 t c s 16:00, 4 August 2008 (UTC)
I agree from what I read this may be blasphemous to Hinduism. BAPS financing is also not clear whether this is a commercial enterprise or a genuine religious organization. This is worship of the person swaminarayan just like sai baba who is inspired by muslim influences and some people still consider Hinduism. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.49.150.167 (talk) 00:07, 1 April 2015 (UTC)
Denomination?
Is the Swaminarayan faith considered Shaivism, Shaktism, Vaishnavism, or Smartha? Sylvain1972 (talk) 17:07, 28 January 2009 (UTC)
- It is considered a denomination of vaishnavism by most, however some believe it is a denomination of its own World tcs 20:15, 28 January 2009 (UTC)
- I think the intro should characterize it as Swaminarayan Vaishnavism or Swaminarayan Vaishnavist Hinduism then. As a westerner having delved into the topic of Hinduism, I agree with the Indic sentiment that there is not really a religion called "Hinduism", but since most westerners use to believe there is, the "Hinduism" (similar to Abrahamite) may still be retained. Rursus dixit. (mbork3!) 22:31, 12 April 2010 (UTC)
- See my comment above, that's the only problem with doing that The World 12:38, 13 April 2010 (UTC)
- I think the intro should characterize it as Swaminarayan Vaishnavism or Swaminarayan Vaishnavist Hinduism then. As a westerner having delved into the topic of Hinduism, I agree with the Indic sentiment that there is not really a religion called "Hinduism", but since most westerners use to believe there is, the "Hinduism" (similar to Abrahamite) may still be retained. Rursus dixit. (mbork3!) 22:31, 12 April 2010 (UTC)
This should be a denomination on its own — Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.171.129.133 (talk) 06:35, 1 May 2015 (UTC)
- It is a sub-denomination within Vaishnava Hinduism, much like Gaudiya Vaishnavism (ISKCON sect). The present title doesn't really make sense since it's not its own brand of Hinduism; rather, it is a sect of subsect within Hinduism. It would be more appropriate to move the article back to its previous name of Swaminarayan faith or Swaminarayan sect. Or perhaps it could be renamed to something like Swaminarayan (sect) to indicate that its name is Swaminarayan (and not Swaminarayan Faith, as in the case of the Baha'i Faith, but that it is a faith community as distinguished from Swaminarayan the spiritual leader who is the founder of the faith group. --Shruti14 talk • sign 01:45, 12 July 2015 (UTC)
Suggestions
nn
- "The Swaminarayan faith has a large percentage of Hindus who are followers of Swaminarayan." what how it mean? Are there non-Hindu Swaminarayans?
- "India, Britain, and the United States." Form sentences. A section on distribution of Swaminarayan Hindus is necessary
- Instead of having a section titled "Succession of Swaminarayan", I suggest a layout of:
- "Common beliefs"
- Common History: who is Swaminarayan? Sampradaya and reason of schisms
- Separate sections on each sect within S.Hinduism. Highlight differences in philosophies, succession etc. A short history of each within the sect section. Chief Temples and leaders by each sect. Organization of each sect.
- Swaminarayan Sampraday
- BAPS
- et al
- Relations of the schisms (approval/criticism of each other etc.)
--Redtigerxyz Talk 13:44, 31 August 2009 (UTC)
The Swaminarayan faith can be considered an "original" work by wikipedia standards as Hinduism already has an established collection of authentic books. remove swaminarayan from wikipedia hindu references as per wikipedia standards please and also other faiths like sai baba and iskcon claiming to be hindu faiths . please
- Swaminarayan and ISKCON are established, widely recognized faith communities that are sub-denominations of Vaishnavism, which itself is a major denomination of Hinduism. Thus they are not merely 'claiming to be hindu faiths' as you say. They are actually validly classified as part of Hinduism and recognized as such by scholars, legal systems, and governments. --Shruti14 talk • sign 01:47, 12 July 2015 (UTC)
- Wikipedia standards are based on reliable sources and there are sources that clearly point to both ISKCON and Swaminarayan being recognized and widely accepted subgroups within Vaishnavism which itself is one of the major branches of the Hindu faith. --Shruti14 talk • sign 01:56, 12 July 2015 (UTC)
The Gunatit Samaj edits by Apollo1203 and Moksha88 are factually incorrect and the "reputable" sources are one-sided thus they are not reputable. Reputable accounts can be found on gunatitjyot.org and kakaji.org as they consider points of views from all parties who are involved with the discussion of the Gunait Samaj.
Hinduism
Please remove references to Hinduism in this article. This sect is already falsely claiming to be the largest Hindu temple. Please stop misinformation if you believe in a God. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.55.34.248 (talk) 12:21, 23 October 2015 (UTC)
External links modified
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Orphaned references in Swaminarayan Faith
I check pages listed in Category:Pages with incorrect ref formatting to try to fix reference errors. One of the things I do is look for content for orphaned references in wikilinked articles. I have found content for some of Swaminarayan Faith's orphans, the problem is that I found more than one version. I can't determine which (if any) is correct for this article, so I am asking for a sentient editor to look it over and copy the correct ref content into this article.
Reference named "isbn8170247985":
- From Shikshapatri: M. G. Chitkara (1997). Hindutva. APH. Retrieved March 26, 2009. Page 230
- From Desh Vibhag Lekh: M. G. Chitkara (1997). Hindutva. APH. Retrieved March 26, 2009. Page 228
- From Shri Swaminarayan Mandir, Vadtal: M. G. Chitkara (1997). Hindutva. APH. pp. 227–228. Retrieved June 10, 2009.
- From Vachanamrut: M. G. Chitkara (1997). Hindutva. APH. p. 228. Retrieved June 13, 2009.
- From Swaminarayan Sampraday: M. G. Chitkara (1997). Hindutva. APH. p. 230. Retrieved June 17, 2009.
Reference named "isbn8120606515":
- From Premanand Swami: Behramji Merwanji Malabari, Krishnalal M. Jhaveri, Malabari M. B (1997). Gujarat and the Gujaratis. Asian Educational Services. ISBN 8120606515. Retrieved May 21, 2009.
{{cite book}}: CS1 maint: multiple names: authors list (link) Page 241 - From Swaminarayan: Behramji Merwanji Malabari, Krishnalal M. Jhaveri, Malabari M. B (1997). Gujarat and the Gujaratis. Asian Educational Services. ISBN 8120606515. Retrieved May 7, 2009.
{{cite book}}: CS1 maint: multiple names: authors list (link) Page 263 - 269 - From Swaminarayan Sampraday: Behramji Merwanji Malabari, Krishnalal M. Jhaveri, Malabari M. B (1997). Gujarat and the Gujaratis. Asian Educational Services. ISBN 8120606515. Retrieved May 7, 2009.
{{cite book}}: CS1 maint: multiple names: authors list (link) Page 241-242
I apologize if any of the above are effectively identical; I am just a simple computer program, so I can't determine whether minor differences are significant or not. AnomieBOT⚡ 10:24, 1 July 2009 (UTC)
https://indiankanoon.org/doc/145565 laxmikant (talk) 03:00, 30 March 2018 (UTC)
Name change & lede
Name change given for reasons mentioned above - it does not make sense to call the article 'Swaminarayan Hinduism' since that is not an official name for it and frankly it is not some special brand of Hinduism. More properly it is a spiritual tradition within the Vaishnava major sect of Hinduism. It is also not known as Swaminarayan Faith officially (akin to Baha'i Faith) nor is it officially known as the Swaminarayan Sect. Its name is simply Swaminarayan. Changed the title of the article accordingly, with a parenthetical explanation that this is a spiritual tradition to distinguish from the spiritual leader with the same name who is the founder of the sect whose biographical article also bears the name Swaminarayan. Also edited the lede to clarify that this is a branch of Vaishnava Hinduism. --Shruti14 talk • sign 01:55, 12 July 2015 (UTC)
https://indiankanoon.org/doc/145565 it is not Hinduism at all, it is business. laxmikant (talk) 03:02, 30 March 2018 (UTC)
Fan POV Tag
WP:Conachieve can you please explain why this tag was placed? There has not been a discussion about this tag.Treehugger8891 (talk) 02:08, 2 October 2019 (UTC)
- @Treehugger8891:, agreed. I'm tagging @Harshil169: to explain the reasoning. Moksha88 (talk) 21:47, 2 October 2019 (UTC)
- Moksha88 If someone is reading article then it can be clearly understandable that it’s written from point of view from person who follows it. On Wikipedia, articles related to religion must adhere NPOV and secondary and tertiary sources which critically examine one religion. Also, many details in the article is unnecessary for common person who just want to know about tradition but it may be necessary for fan/follower of sect. The article has systematic bias and thus, I’ve tshged this. Thanks— Harshil want to talk? 02:10, 3 October 2019 (UTC)
Merge
- The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section. A summary of the conclusions reached follows.
- The result of this discussion was to merge.
This article needs to be merged with Swaminarayan. Editor2020 (talk) 03:13, 16 December 2019 (UTC)
- Editor2020, I agree that this article should be merged though would like to suggest another article. This refers to the tradition founded by Swaminarayan. Just as there are separate articles for the founders of other faiths and the faith itself, I don’t think these articles should be merged. Instead, this article should be merged with the Swaminarayan Sampraday article. After a close review, the majority of scholarly sources use Swaminarayan Sampraday to refer to all the groups within this tradition (1). Some of the content in this article also duplicates what exists in the current Swaminarayan Sampraday article as noted by others. Moksha88 (talk) 04:21, 18 December 2019 (UTC)
- Yes, you are correct. This article should be merged with Swaminarayan Sampraday. Editor2020 (talk) 04:25, 18 December 2019 (UTC)
- Editor2020, let me study these articles a bit more to identify how best to make the merger happen. I will then draft up an outline in my sandbox of steps moving forward. Moksha88 (talk) 03:55, 19 December 2019 (UTC)
- Editor2020, here's my suggested merger (1). If you agree, can you change the merge tags that you've currently placed to reflect the suggested merger? Per WP:PM, I will also invite other editors in the Swaminarayan Wikiproject for discussion given the complexity of the task at hand. Moksha88 (talk) 03:06, 20 December 2019 (UTC)
- I don't believe I set any tags, just this mention on the Talk page. Editor2020 (talk) 22:46, 22 December 2019 (UTC)
- Editor2020, my mistake. I added the tags to all the pages. Please let me know if they look alright: Swaminarayan Sampraday, Swaminarayan (spiritual tradition), Nar Narayan Dev Gadi, and Laxmi Narayan Dev Gadi. Thank you. Moksha88 (talk) 03:05, 23 December 2019 (UTC)
- I don't believe I set any tags, just this mention on the Talk page. Editor2020 (talk) 22:46, 22 December 2019 (UTC)
- Yes, you are correct. This article should be merged with Swaminarayan Sampraday. Editor2020 (talk) 04:25, 18 December 2019 (UTC)
Looking good. Editor2020 (talk) 03:16, 23 December 2019 (UTC)
- I came across this discussion on the wiki project. I agree with the proposed merger. However I feel we should move the 'Temples' section from the Sampraday article into the List of Swaminarayan Temples article.Actionjackson09 (talk) 12:18, 24 December 2019 (UTC)
- Thank you Moksha88 for posting on the Wikiproject page regarding this merge. I, too, agree on this merge and it also seems logical to move 'Temples' from the Swaminarayan Sampradaya article to "List of Swaminarayan Temples" article. Apollo1203 (talk) 15:21, 25 December 2019 (UTC)
- Actionjackson09 & Apollo1203, I think that makes sense and will adjust the tag accordingly. Moksha88 (talk) 19:42, 25 December 2019 (UTC)
- In reviewing the Sampraday article, there's a significant amount of content lacking scholarly sources along with original research. I will begin posting excerpts on my sandbox (1) which need to be verified and/or rewritten and would appreciate both of your help. I will make these edits after I merge to avoid confusing content. Moksha88 (talk) 02:32, 26 December 2019 (UTC)
- On closer review, I think 'Organization Structure' from the Sampraday article is best suited for articles dedicated to each of the diocese. I have revised the structure accordingly. Moksha88 (talk) 03:39, 29 December 2019 (UTC)
- Hey everyone, came across this conversation after I joined the Swaminarayan wikiproject. Thanks to (talk) for succinctly visualizing what sections from the spiritual tradition would merge into the main page under. I happen to also think that this merge should happen and agree with the editor above that the 'Temples" section should be in the list of swaminarayan temples article. The organizations within the swaminarayan sampraday should also encompass the bit about the gunatit samaj from the spiritual traditions page. If you have not done so, review the chart on Moksha88's sandbox. I believe this grouping is the best for this proposed merge. ThaNDNman224 (talk) 04:19, 29 December 2019 (UTC)
- On closer review, I think 'Organization Structure' from the Sampraday article is best suited for articles dedicated to each of the diocese. I have revised the structure accordingly. Moksha88 (talk) 03:39, 29 December 2019 (UTC)
- Thank you Moksha88 for posting on the Wikiproject page regarding this merge. I, too, agree on this merge and it also seems logical to move 'Temples' from the Swaminarayan Sampradaya article to "List of Swaminarayan Temples" article. Apollo1203 (talk) 15:21, 25 December 2019 (UTC)
- I came across this discussion on the wiki project. I agree with the proposed merger. However I feel we should move the 'Temples' section from the Sampraday article into the List of Swaminarayan Temples article.Actionjackson09 (talk) 12:18, 24 December 2019 (UTC)
Requested move 31 December 2019
- The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
The result of the move request was: Page moved. (closed by non-admin page mover) Jerm (talk) 15:55, 15 January 2020 (UTC)
Swaminarayan (spiritual tradition) → Swaminarayan Sampradaya – Based on my research and the n-gram result, I am requesting to move the current article, to change the title to Swaminarayan Sampradaya as it is more appropriate. Apollo1203 (talk) 08:21, 31 December 2019 (UTC) —Relisting. — Amakuru (talk) 12:37, 7 January 2020 (UTC)
- I supporting moving the article as it reflects scholarly consensus (1). In merging the pages, I didn't realize I couldn't simply rename the page and would have suggested merging in the opposite direction. Tagging Editor2020, Actionjackson09, ThaNDNman224 for comment. Moksha88 (talk) 18:07, 31 December 2019 (UTC)
- Looking at the previous comments I believe that the move and name change is warranted. Not sure where the "spiritual tradition" originated but it's not in line with other religious wikis here. It makes sense to me to change the title to what the editor above has said. I'd welcome any editors who have another opinion to chime in though! ThaNDNman224 (talk) 17:34, 2 January 2020 (UTC)
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.
Gunatit Samaj
The Gunatit Samaj edits by Apollo1203 and Moksha88 are factually incorrect and the "reputable" sources are one-sided thus they are not reputable. Reputable accounts can be found on gunatitjyot.org and kakaji.org as they consider points of views from all parties who are involved with the discussion of the Gunait Samaj. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A00:23C5:4293:D801:3825:56ED:593F:8259 (talk) 14:29, 19 February 2020 (UTC)
- Those are primary sources are do not meet the criteria for reliable sources as per WP:RS. Moksha88 (talk) 06:39, 3 May 2020 (UTC)
Swaminarayan Mandir Vasna Sanstha: Notability
@Apollo1203: I saw you removed the section on the Swaminarayan Mandir Vasna Sanstha here from 'Major Branches' but reinserted it until you could explain your reasoning as per WP:ORGCRIT. Moksha88 (talk) 06:38, 3 May 2020 (UTC)
- @Moksha88: I've removed the branch from the article as there is only 1 secondary source cited to the group. According to ORGCRIT, the subject needs significant sources to be viable. If you can find additional secondary sources besides the one that was cited, it can be added back into the article. Apollo1203 (talk) 03:18, 5 May 2020 (UTC)
- @Apollo1203: You're right, there's not much to support the notability of this organization, only Raymond Williams's 2001 book and a brief mention in Gordan Melton's paper. While there are other newspaper articles referenced in the Swaminarayan Mandir Vasna Sanstha article, the depth of coverage is not significant. Moksha88 (talk) 17:20, 5 May 2020 (UTC)
Humanitarian Service
@Kbhatt22: Your recent edits on the humanitarian service section list world records held by the Laxmi Narayan Dev Yuvak Mandal which to my knowledge is not a registered charitable organization. I think it is appropriate to limit this section to charitable organizations of the Swaminarayan sampradaya in an effort to keep this article focused as per WP:FALSEBALANCE. Additionally, the source “golden book of world records” seems dubious at least according to the editor in chief of India Book of Records (https://indiabookofrecords.in/fraudrecordbooks/) see, WP:QUESTIONABLE and its use here seems to promote the “golden book of world records” more than the activities of the Laxmi Narayan Dev Yuvak Mandal which is not a Wikipedia best practice WP:NOTPROMOTION. At the very least, I think we should 1) focus on the humanitarian activity and not the record, or 2) if the Laxmi Narayan Dev Yuvak Mandal is not a registered charitable organization, then I think these edits should be removed. Thoughts anyone?Harshmellow717 (talk) 01:41, 8 May 2020 (UTC)
- @Harshmellow717: You make a great point and I agree with you. I think it would be better if it was kept out as well. Apollo1203 (talk) 18:42, 8 May 2020 (UTC)
- Looking at the edit, I don’t think the criteria for WP:RS is met. @Kbhatt22:, do you have another reliable source to vouch for the work done? There is consensus here that the material doesn't adhere to a core policy, so I will remove it for now until you can provide a better reference. Moksha88 (talk) 03:03, 9 May 2020 (UTC)
@Harshmellow717: @Moksha88: This was already discussed on Apollo's talk page 2 days ago and the change was added back in. The Indian book of world records is not a registered entity and only existed for a few years as a competitor and that is not a reliable source. The source you are referencing is an opinion article from a smaller competitor record company. The Golden Book of Records is a registered publisher in India. They are recognized by another Indian entity http://www.worldrecordholdersclub.com/ http://www.worldrecordholdersclub.com/?p=339
This is another registered publisher recognizing their work. The Indian Book of Records(your citation) is another private record book holder only in existence since 2006 that in the article you listed is simply trying to downplay other record holder companies within India. Here is another article legitimizing Golden Book of World Records: https://www.timesnownews.com/india/article/international-yoga-day-2018-yoga-guru-baba-ramdev-world-records-rajasthan-kota-vasundhara-raje-acharya-balkrishna-rac-ground-guinness-golden-book/243582 https://www.ndtv.com/india-news/2-501-blood-tests-in-6-hours-madhya-pradesh-ngo-sets-new-world-record-1813105
Both Times Now and NDTV are legitimate news networks who cover world records tracked by Golden Book of World Records. I think there is no reason to question their source material.
Adding another national level news company's (Times of India) coverage of tracking done by Golden Book of World Records: https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/tv/news/hindi/roadies-11-contestant-navjyot-gurudutta-registered-among-the-list-of-worlds-top-100-influencing-sikh/articleshow/75434744.cms
Many big Indian media networks work with and cite Golden Book of World records honors. I don't think the Indian Book of Records is a legitimate source as they are a competitor with bias in the matter. Times of India, NDTV, and Times Now News have all used Golden Book of World Records as reference material. This meats Wikipedias source policy as it is used by
The focus is on the humanitarian efforts of 21,900 eye donations. They registered a world record which is documented proof that was simply used as citation. The Laxmi-Narayan Dev Yuvak Mandal is a registered entity of SVG Charity which is a 401c registered non-profit in the United States (http://www.swaminarayanvadtalgadi.org/charity/) but instead of using their official site as a source, i used an independent recognized record tracking company. Laxmi-narayan dev yuvak mandal is also the offical acting youth charity entity of the Vadtal gadi so does not trip the False Balance policy I believe.
- @Kbhatt22: Please do not add any material for which consensus has not been reached. Doing so can be seen as being disruptive editing. For the time being, I have moved it to my sandbox where we can work on it together. Harshmellow717 (talk) 02:53, 12 May 2020 (UTC)
- @Harshmellow717: Understood. I assumed all concerns were addressed in revisions but will keep this in mind for future.
- @Harshmellow717: Where is you're sandbox?
- @Kbhatt22:, I agree with your move to the sandbox for us to all review. Please make sure you include a link to your sandbox next time. @Kbhatt22:, there are several problems with this edit. First, the section is entitled, "Humanitarian Service, which is nested under "Influence on Society." In the edit you included, the focus should be on the actual donations because it is an example of the humanitarian activity which has impacted society. By emphasizing the Golden Book of Records, the service is considered a promotional activity, so I proposed a simpler version which integrates the details at the end of the prior paragraph. The policy WP:NOTPROMO is very clear here, and promotional matter lowers the quality of the article. In this past, this article was tagged for not having encyclopedic material. If you do want to include those details, I think you should cite them in the Laxmi Narayan Dev Gadi article. For example, BAPS Charities has more details in the BAPS article than this article which focuses on the entire Swaminarayan Sampradaya. Also, please make sure to sign your comments as it becomes very difficult to identify who is who. Moksha88 (talk) 03:29, 12 May 2020 (UTC)
- @Kbhatt22: I agree with what @Harshmellow717: and @Moksha88: have outlined above. I think it would be best to move those details to the Laxmi Narayan Dev Gadi article.Apollo1203 (talk) 03:42, 12 May 2020 (UTC)
- @Kbhatt22:, I agree with your move to the sandbox for us to all review. Please make sure you include a link to your sandbox next time. @Kbhatt22:, there are several problems with this edit. First, the section is entitled, "Humanitarian Service, which is nested under "Influence on Society." In the edit you included, the focus should be on the actual donations because it is an example of the humanitarian activity which has impacted society. By emphasizing the Golden Book of Records, the service is considered a promotional activity, so I proposed a simpler version which integrates the details at the end of the prior paragraph. The policy WP:NOTPROMO is very clear here, and promotional matter lowers the quality of the article. In this past, this article was tagged for not having encyclopedic material. If you do want to include those details, I think you should cite them in the Laxmi Narayan Dev Gadi article. For example, BAPS Charities has more details in the BAPS article than this article which focuses on the entire Swaminarayan Sampradaya. Also, please make sure to sign your comments as it becomes very difficult to identify who is who. Moksha88 (talk) 03:29, 12 May 2020 (UTC)
- @Apollo1203: ::@Moksha88: ::@Harshmellow717: I agree with all the points all 3 of you mentioned. My concern is the Laxmi Narayan Dev Gadi article doesn't have a dedicated humanitarian service section and doesn't need it for 1 line. I saw that the following line was posted in that section: "Following the devastating earthquake in Gujarat in 2001, they rebuilt 15 villages and neighborhoods and 39 schools. For its work, BAPS has been granted consultative status with the Economic and Social Council of the United Nations" I tried to use a similar format to list the humanitarian service, eye donations, and then the source, golden book of world records. If that is a promotion violation, is the reference to the Social Council not also a promotion of that independent entity? How does this format sound "In 2013, under the guidance of Vadtal Acharya Ajendraprasadji Maharaj, Laxmi-Narayan Dev Yuvak Mandal registered 21,900 eye donations in one hour in an organ donation charity drive as well as the most body donations to medical sciences and studies with 352 registrants in a 12 hour window." It removes the text about record and company (only used as citation) designating the record but at this point there is no reason to question Golden book of world records as it is constantly used by 3 major news networks across India and recognized as a valid record tracking company by NDTV, Times of India, etc. I can see where my wording sem promotional so I simplified it. My concern with putting this in the Laxmi Narayan Dev Gadi article is that it is not enough to warrant a dedicated section. On the swaminarayan sampraday page, we have a section this fits in, and the service is by the Vadtal Diocese which is a large size group in the swaminarayan sampraday. Thank all 3 of you for the help. (talk) 05:42, 12 May 2020 (UTC)
- @Kbhatt22: The sentence on BAPS focuses on the work that specifically influenced society in the wake of a natural disaster. The inclusion of the UN is appropriate here because they are involved in humanitarian efforts that impact society. Additionally, it is sourced to an independent, scholarly source and not the institution's own website. I see you have posted your proposed version of the edit on my sandbox. Let us continue any further discussion regarding this topic on the talk page of my sandbox. Harshmellow717 (talk) 07:01, 13 May 2020 (UTC)
- @Harshmellow717: We should keep the discussion here since it relates to content on this article. Your points make sense, and I would like to propose Edit #3. It uses the word 'organ' instead of 'eye' and 'body' because it's less confusing and strange than mentioning both 'eye' and 'body' donations as separate. @Kbhatt22: while the Laxmi Narayan Dev Gadi may not have a section, this may be the right opportunity to develop one, and all details you want to incorporate can be included there. Moksha88 (talk) 17:43, 13 May 2020 (UTC)
- @Kbhatt22: It appears that consensus is to not add the information you are proposing to the article here, but rather to the Laxmi Narayan Devi Gadi. I think it would help enhance that article further.Apollo1203 (talk) 20:12, 13 May 2020 (UTC)
- @Harshmellow717: We should keep the discussion here since it relates to content on this article. Your points make sense, and I would like to propose Edit #3. It uses the word 'organ' instead of 'eye' and 'body' because it's less confusing and strange than mentioning both 'eye' and 'body' donations as separate. @Kbhatt22: while the Laxmi Narayan Dev Gadi may not have a section, this may be the right opportunity to develop one, and all details you want to incorporate can be included there. Moksha88 (talk) 17:43, 13 May 2020 (UTC)
- @Kbhatt22: The sentence on BAPS focuses on the work that specifically influenced society in the wake of a natural disaster. The inclusion of the UN is appropriate here because they are involved in humanitarian efforts that impact society. Additionally, it is sourced to an independent, scholarly source and not the institution's own website. I see you have posted your proposed version of the edit on my sandbox. Let us continue any further discussion regarding this topic on the talk page of my sandbox. Harshmellow717 (talk) 07:01, 13 May 2020 (UTC)
- @Apollo1203: @Moksha88: I am not sure that is exactly the consensus being reached. Based on the sand box drafting I am working on with Harshmellow717 the idea is to have some 1-2 sentence item here like all the other listed organizations that is expanded on in Laxmi Narayan Devi Gadi. Do you agree with this approach? Harshmellow and I are working out the revised portion for here and I will work on the detailed section on Laxmi Narayan Devi Gadi after gathering more sources and can expand details there. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Kbhatt22 (talk • contribs)
- @Kbhatt22: I agree, let's include the one-sentence version that links back to the article. In Edit 5, I've removed the phrase 'Vadtal diocese' because it's redundant and adjusted the wording to make it more clear that people are not just ripping out their eyes and organs for charity. @Harshmellow717:@Apollo1203: what do you all think about including this sentence back into the article while Kbhatt22 adds more details to the other article? Also, Kbhatt22 don't forget to sign your posts as it can be perceived as disruptive. Moksha88 (talk) 02:23, 15 May 2020 (UTC)
- @Apollo1203: @Moksha88: I am not sure that is exactly the consensus being reached. Based on the sand box drafting I am working on with Harshmellow717 the idea is to have some 1-2 sentence item here like all the other listed organizations that is expanded on in Laxmi Narayan Devi Gadi. Do you agree with this approach? Harshmellow and I are working out the revised portion for here and I will work on the detailed section on Laxmi Narayan Devi Gadi after gathering more sources and can expand details there. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Kbhatt22 (talk • contribs)
- @Moksha88: Sounds good. Do I just make the change now or have to wait for something. I think consensus is reached Kbhatt22 (talk) 15:52, 16 May 2020 (UTC)
- I just reviewed Edit 5 and I think it looks good. It appears the group all agrees that this is a good edit, I will go ahead and edit the page with this edit. Thank you all for the collaboration and teamwork!Apollo1203 (talk) 17:56, 16 May 2020 (UTC)
- @Moksha88: Sounds good. Do I just make the change now or have to wait for something. I think consensus is reached Kbhatt22 (talk) 15:52, 16 May 2020 (UTC)
- Thanks for making the edits and thanks everyone for working on this! Kbhatt22 (talk) 00:21, 17 May 2020 (UTC)
Original Research
Extended content
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There have been edits to the Gunatit Samaj section which I believe are original research. The claim is: "Dadubhai believed Pramukh Swami was against him and persuaded the BAPS trustees to remove him." The published sources the
Both of these sources fail to mention what is being written. If it can be found within the source, then a citation with the page number needs to be added.Apollo1203 (talk) 15:48, 15 July 2020 (UTC)
Page 66 Why does the article have multiple pictures of BAPS? This is not a BAPS article? Doesn't make sense. 136.2.16.182 (talk) 16:01, 15 July 2020 (UTC) I have been following this discussion. The claim "Dadubhai believed Pramukh Swami was against him and persuaded the BAPS trustees to remove him." is not being made on page 66. Please correct me if I am missing something. With that said I do agree that 7 of the 8 pictures here are BAPS picture and this is not appropriate. This page is the entire Sampradaya and so one "branch" should not dominate the entire page. Open to suggestions from Apollo1203 on how we can remediate this and spread the presence of the entire Sampradaya in the used imagery. My proposed suggestion is that images on this centeral page only be limited to mandirs, murtis and images of things originally created by Swaminarayan himself and then let each sections own landing page use their branches images. Otherwise we end up with a bias towards one branch. Kbhatt22 (talk) 21:46, 15 July 2020 (UTC)
And we need to remove those pictures. This article is about the Sampraday not individual sects that broke off. 136.2.16.182 (talk) 22:17, 15 July 2020 (UTC) I did not draw the connection between narayanswarupdas and pramukh swami, regardless if you can use words or outline that name connection and the source is a valid book with isbn; I personally am not seeing a problem here but I will let some of the other editors/contributors provide feedback before we can all reach a consensus on this change. I am not advocating we remove the pictures entirely but we balance them to encompass the entire Sampradaya and not any one branch. The best way being, sticking to the original content created by Swaminarayan himself. Also, please wait for others to provide feedback and a consensus to be reached before making an edit as per Wikipedia's guidelines. Kbhatt22 (talk) 22:55, 15 July 2020 (UTC)
Kbhatt22 thank you for your ideas and contributions in a civil manner. However, I think there is a lot being discussed here and it may be easier if you begin with the exercise we have done previously - creating drafts on sandbox and then it can be discussed in a more organized manner. I think the first thing to add to the page would be the new Maninagar guru information. However, some of the other edits proposed I do not agree with. In terms of the images on the page. If you analyze the images on the page, only 4 of the 9 appear to be BAPS specific. However, they still are representative of the sampradaya. I think there is room on the article to potentially add 1-2 high quality images if needed. Apollo1203 (talk) 18:33, 19 July 2020 (UTC)
I made edits to complete 2,3 (no change),and 4 where consensus was reached to get those out of our way and not carry them forward in the ongoing discussion. 3 was a no change based on consensus so nothing was done. I accidentally put 3 in my change notes. Unsure how to update that but I meant to say edit 4 in the change notes. We are now just awaiting finalizing Edit 1 and Edit 5. Is there any further feed back to the proposed images in my last sandbox update? Kbhatt22 (talk) 13:53, 28 July 2020 (UTC) @Kbhatt22: I have reorganized the sandbox, so it’s clear how many people agree/disagree with each edit. I would encourage everyone to add their votes here so it's clear where things stand. Upon review of this lengthy talk page, I don't think there's consensus for reordering the links. Skubydoo is right that there's no way to chronologically order the links because both dioceses were formed simultaneously. I’d favor reordering alphabetically, not chronologically. I don’t know how everyone else feels, but they should vote on your sandbox. Moksha88 (talk) 18:44, 28 July 2020 (UTC)
I mean this with absolute continued respect, I have raised this as a dispute. This has gone on for over 2 weeks and I just want a resolution here. Hopefully this helps speed up consensus and closure of the 4 edits in my sandbox. I am not going to be actively a part of the discussion below on additional points raised by the IP. I did provide feedback but will refrain from ending up being involved in those proposed edits. I am just looking to round out my 4 proposed edits and take a break. I have remained respectful, civil, and supportive of the open wiki collaboration culture and have supported points made by literally everyone here. I am simply asking for diversification and have carefully outlined the clear heavy reliance on images and sources from one specific branch. With that said, I have remained neutral and fair but feel like after over 2 weeks, only 1 of the smallest change had any consensus reached. I have enjoyed working with all of you and look forward to continue working with each of you should more work be needed. I have much respect for all of you and hope the same exists both ways. Lets wrap up these 4 changes. Thanks Kbhatt22 (talk) 10:24, 29 July 2020 (UTC) References
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Follow up on edits
I am proposing the following edits throughout the article and the lead.
- Edit A
Early in his leadership of the group, Sahajanand Swami directed his devotees to chant the Swaminarayan mantra, which is stands one entity Purushottam.[1] In the Vachanamrut, the principal theological text of the sampradaya, Swaminarayan identifies five eternal and distinct entities: parabrahman, brahman, maya (māyā), ishwar (iśvara), and jiva (jīva) See Gadhada I.7, Gadhada I.39, Gadhada I.42, Gadhada III.10
Currently it only shows the BAPS version which is "Early in his leadership of the group, Sahajanand Swami directed his devotees to chant the Swaminarayan mantra, which is a compound of two Sanskrit words: Swami and Narayan. ‘Swami’ denotes Aksharbrahman" which even in the source that is currently up, shows both means and needs to be clarified that the Sampraday believes the first and baps breakoff believes their own made up version. Clearly the original name meaning is different then what is currently on the article. Does this entire need to have separate BAPS interpretations? This book An introduction to Swaminarayan Hindu theology is written by a BAPS sadhu 'Paramtattvadas, Sadhu' so it needs to be tossed from this article on non BAPS items.
References
- Edit C
I am proposing removing references to Akshar-Purushottam Darshan in this article. It is not something created by Swaminarayan and has way too much undue weight on this article. It is a synthesis of sources and cherry picking of scriptures by the BAPS founder and he was legally barred from entering the Swaminarayn Sampraday premises by a judge for making up his own crap that led him to getting his followers to worship him instead. How does the shikshaprati have a tiny blurb about it from a BAPS sourced book while BAPS supporting items like Akshar-Purushottam Darshan and Swamini Vato are heavily weighted in here?
136.2.32.181 (talk) 13:53, 27 July 2020 (UTC)
- I can't speak to edit A. Little too deep of a dive for me to follow. I'll leave that for others to provide feedback on. For B, based on the source you provided. Swami Vato is to Baps as Lekh is to the other branches. @Skubydoo: I think including Lekh under scriptures would resolve this. Both are listed and both merit inclusion is how I see this. As for Edit C, is that branch specific ideology? I just hovered over every source in that section and every single source was BAPs branch sourced or from the Williams, Raymond Brady book which outlines it as Baps beliefs. Instead of the IP's proposal of removing it, I propose we move it under the Baps section under branches if it is specific to that branch. Thoughts? @Skubydoo: Kbhatt22 (talk) 16:20, 27 July 2020 (UTC)
- I've taken a look at the point the above user made on 'Edit C'. The sources that are speaking to this 'Akshar-Purshottam Darshan' seem to come from academic sources and don't seem 'cherry picked'. Of note, all the sources mentioned have been published by various universities, and academic organizations. I've noticed that this english translation of this 'Vachanamrut' text has been called into question as well. I am not too familiar with this text, however it is seemingly very often cited in other academic sources on the subject of this Swaminarayan Sampraday and therefore I see it being used here as ok. I am following this discussion and have sporadically had time to weigh in, but I welcome the discussion to move further. ThaNDNman224 (talk) 02:17, 28 July 2020 (UTC)
- I am not suggesting they are not academic. I am suggesting if the 'Akshar-Purushottam Darshan' is a branch specific idealody like the IP claims, then we can move it under the branch as opposed to the proposal of outright removal. That's all. I ctrl+f the vachnamrut linked here and the term 'Akshar-Purushottam Darshan' did not appear in it also. The only source I saw in that section that uses that phrase was 'Swaminarayan's Brahmajnana as Aksarabrahma-Parabrahma-Darsanam' by Bhadreshdas Swami who came up as a monk from the Bochasanwasi Akshar Purushottam Swaminarayan Sanstha. The other source uses is the book by Swami Paramtattvadas who is also listed as a monk under that same branch/group. So I am simply asking if this is branch specific idealody or general sampradaya idealody? Can we find another source that suggests another branch shares this ideology? The answer to that I think would dictate the discussion around "Edit C' I feel. Kbhatt22 (talk) 03:33, 28 July 2020 (UTC)
- I agree with ThaNDNman224 (talk · contribs) about “Edit C”. All but one source listed in the Metaphysics section is an academic, secondary source, the other being the English translation of the Vachanamrut, which the cited academic sources also reference. Therefore, in my opinion, this Vachanamrut is branch agnostic as it is widely cited in academic articles related to the Swaminarayan Sampradaya. Please see the list of scholarly sources cited in the Metaphysics section:
- Paramtattvadas, Sadhu (17 August 2017). An introduction to Swaminarayan Hindu theology. Cambridge, United Kingdom: Cambridge University Press. ISBN 978-1-107-15867-2. OCLC 964861190.
- Kim, Hanna (2002). Being Swaminarayan: the ontology and significance of belief in the construction of a Gujarati diaspora. UMI Dissertation Services. OCLC 452027310.
- Kim, Hanna (2014) "Svāminārāyaṇa: Bhaktiyoga and the Akṣarabrahman Guru". In Singleton, Mark; Goldberg, Ellen (eds.). Gurus of modern yoga. New York, NY: Oxford University Press. ISBN 978-0-19-993871-1. OCLC 861692270.
- Gadhia, Smit (2016). "Akshara and its four forms in Swaminarayan's doctrine". In Williams, Raymond Brady; Trivedi, Yogi (eds.). Swaminarayan Hinduism: tradition, adaptation and identity (1st ed.). New Delhi, India: Oxford University Press. ISBN 978-0-19-908657-3. OCLC 948338914.
- Trivedi, Yogi (2016). "Multivalent Krishna-bhakti in Premanand's Poetry". In Williams, Raymond Brady (ed.). Swaminarayan Hinduism: tradition, adaptation and identity (1st ed.). New Delhi, India: Oxford University Press. ISBN 978-0-19-908657-3. OCLC 948338914.
- Brahmbhatt, Arun (2016). "The Swaminarayan commentarial tradition". In Williams, Raymond Brady; Trivedi, Yogi (eds.). Swaminarayan Hinduism: tradition, adaptation and identity(1st ed.). New Delhi, India: Oxford University Press. ISBN 978-0-19-908657-3. OCLC 948338914.
- Bhadreshdas, Sadhu; Aksharananddas, Sadhu (1 April 2016), "Swaminarayan's Brahmajnana as Aksarabrahma-Parabrahma-Darsanam", Swaminarayan Hinduism, Oxford University Press, pp. 172–190, doi:10.1093/acprof:oso/9780199463749.003.0011, ISBN 978-0-19-946374-9
- Kim, Hanna (2016). "Thinking through Akshardham and the making of the Swaminarayan self". In Williams, Raymond Brady; Trivedi, Yogi (eds.). Swaminarayan Hinduism: tradition, adaptation and identity (1st ed.). New Delhi, India: Oxford University Press. ISBN 978-0-19-908657-3. OCLC 948338914.
- @Harshmellow717: Hey Harshmellow717. Thanks for outlining the sources. That is very helpful. I agree with you and ThaNDNman224 (talk · contribs) that this should not be removed. I am simply questioning the placement in the article. None of the other sources use the phrase 'Aksarabrahma-Parabrahma-Darsan' except the two from Baps origin. Please see my last comment for more details on the reasoning here. None of the sources above imply or suggest that that phrase is branch agnostic. It also does not exist in the vachnamrut from my ctrl+f search. That phrase is listed under the branch it is associated with already. At the very least, shouldn't we remove that phrase from the Metaphysics section? The rest is sourced and fine but it seems odd to have a branch specific ideology listed for a section applicable to the entire sampradaya. No one has surfaced a source that links that ideology with any of the other branches? Please provide one if it exists or is implied in the above sources that are not branch specific in origin.
- I believe there’s a difference in how the unregistered user is interpreting the Swaminarayan Sampradaya which underlies Edit C and the other suggested edits. The Swaminarayan Sampradaya encompasses all the branches. This interpretation is based on the majority of secondary sources available which I have outlined here. Thus, it’s incorrect to state,
because BAPS, Maninagar, and Sokdha are all included in the Swaminarayan Sampradaya and thus merit inclusion in this article. Undue weight would be to represent a minority opinion as the majority opinion based on available scholarly sources, which in this case would be to assert that these subgroups do not fall within the Swaminarayan Sampradaya and thus should be excluded from the article altogether. Please also note that the list of references I have provided are published by branch agnostic publishers, not BAPS, similar to the list by @Harshmellow717:. The claim that these sources are BAPS in origin remains unverified. Moksha88 (talk) 18:06, 28 July 2020 (UTC)“the BAPS founder and he was legally barred from entering the Swaminarayn Sampraday premises by a judge for making up his own crap that led him to getting his followers to worship him instead,”
- @Moksha88: My feed back addressed some of those concerns. I agree with you that the proposal by IP to remove that section isn't right. Which is why I proposed moving that under the branch section. You said "The claim that these sources are BAPS in origin remains unverified." But the authors of both the texts sourced that explicitly use this phrase 'Aksarabrahma-Parabrahma-Darsan' are from a specific branch. I don't know how we can verify it any further. Do you have a source that uses that phrase linking it to any other branch besides BAPS? During research I found this, https://www.baps.org/News/2019/Akshar-Purushottam-Darshan-Pith-Established-by-BAPS-in-Kashi-16999.aspx They are claiming ownership of that concept. What is wrong with my proposal that we move that content under the branch section or at the very least, outline it is branch specific. I propose keeping it just like you, just wanting to add clarification if we have an opportunity to do so. Kbhatt22 (talk) 19:12, 28 July 2020 (UTC)
- I think the sources used are not cherrypicked, they are all academic and reliable sources. It does not appear to be synthesized either, which would be considered original research. The sources are from scholars and does not skew the information, the consensus among the scholars is in fact what is written in the article.Apollo1203 (talk) 02:50, 29 July 2020 (UTC)
- I am sorry but if the sources are all linked to originating from one branch then regardless of if you find them scholarly or not, I can present and prove a case of biased viewpoint. Which goes back to an earlier discussion we already had about diversification of sources. Can you justify the reasoning for not wanting diversification on this page? Kbhatt22 (talk) 09:11, 29 July 2020 (UTC)
- I think the sources used are not cherrypicked, they are all academic and reliable sources. It does not appear to be synthesized either, which would be considered original research. The sources are from scholars and does not skew the information, the consensus among the scholars is in fact what is written in the article.Apollo1203 (talk) 02:50, 29 July 2020 (UTC)
- @Moksha88: My feed back addressed some of those concerns. I agree with you that the proposal by IP to remove that section isn't right. Which is why I proposed moving that under the branch section. You said "The claim that these sources are BAPS in origin remains unverified." But the authors of both the texts sourced that explicitly use this phrase 'Aksarabrahma-Parabrahma-Darsan' are from a specific branch. I don't know how we can verify it any further. Do you have a source that uses that phrase linking it to any other branch besides BAPS? During research I found this, https://www.baps.org/News/2019/Akshar-Purushottam-Darshan-Pith-Established-by-BAPS-in-Kashi-16999.aspx They are claiming ownership of that concept. What is wrong with my proposal that we move that content under the branch section or at the very least, outline it is branch specific. I propose keeping it just like you, just wanting to add clarification if we have an opportunity to do so. Kbhatt22 (talk) 19:12, 28 July 2020 (UTC)
Continuing my points here: @Kbhatt22: and the unregistered user, before we can even discuss the Lekh and other suggested edits, we need to establish that the sources used in the ‘Metaphysics’ section are indeed reliable, scholarly secondary sources.
- As mentioned earlier, the matter sourced to the references outlined by Harshmellow are not cherry picked from their original context nor are they original research as previously suggested by the unregistered user. The Vachanamrut sections are from the references themselves as well. Feel free to verify yourself.
- @Kbhatt22: looking at WP:RS, reliability is established in three ways. First, all sources are books and scholarly articles which meet WP:SCHOLARSHIP. The Vachanamrut is an exception but that point has been addressed above}. Second, the list outlined above also meets the criteria for publisher. Third, the authors are all academics of the Swaminarayan Sampradaya, not just limited to one organization. One reference is incomplete, so I’m fixing it. I’m confused why you only mentioned [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Swaminarayan_Sampradaya&diff=970019891&oldid=970018205&diffmode=visual only 2. Finally, we are summarizing the current scholarly consensus in the field (WP:SOURCETYPES). All but one of the sources listed above was published in the last 10 years as opposed to the 2001 book published by Raymond Williams. Therefore, we have to acknowledge where the field stands today.Apollo1203 (talk) 04:12, 29 July 2020 (UTC)
- We are discussing the lekh above. Lets not re-run that discussion down here and keep that discussion above to avoid confusion. Also to be clear for everyone, the page history shows that that entire section was made by Apollo. Not that there is anything wrong with that but lets let others have some feedback in the section here. I did verify myself that the phrase was only in sources originating from one branch. Am still waiting for someone to surface a source that links that concept with another branch. I could not find such a source and the ones used, be it scholarly, are still biases and I continue to drive for diversification of sources, images, and equal representation for all branches. I still stand by my original proposal that we simply move that phrase under the branch whose ideology it is and resolve this dispute between the changes you had already made and the changes the IP suggests. I see merit on both sides. This is not my talking point, I am simply providing neutral feedback to help reach consensus here. Let it also be known that my concern/comments are not with the entire section....As outlined above, it is with the phrase 'Akshar-Purshottum Darshan' which based on research is branch specific and should be relocated. Please don't confuse my points about that one phrase and the bias in the sources representing that phrase to the whole section. I am not targeting the whole section. I quite frankly don't understand that whole section and just independent researched the one phrase and found it to be branch specific.
- The sources that are used to reference 'Akshar-Purshottum Darshan' violate the WP:IS policy as the source is not independent and is closely affiliated with the subject. The author of the source behind that that phrase is openly part of one branch so it is dangerous to imply it is accepted by the entire sampradaya the way it is currently presented on this page. This also means the source has a conflict of interest. Kbhatt22 (talk) 09:11, 29 July 2020 (UTC)
Desh Vibhag Lekh Discussion (Previously Edit 1 & Edit B)
Hello all, between the sandbox and the 3 different threads on the talk page, the discussion was getting difficult to follow so I have decided to create a new section for each point being addressed. I have taken the liberty to add relevant discussions from "Original Research" and "Follow up on edits" sections on the talk page. I have also added the relevant info from Kbhatt22 (talk · contribs)'s sandbox in order to track consensus. Please note in an effort to streamline the discussion the previous comments pasted over from other sections have been modified to only include content relevant to the point being addressed.
From Kbhatt22's Sandbox:
The Change (Addition)
- === Desh Vibhag Lekh ===
- The Desh Vibhag Lekh was written by Swaminarayan in 1827 establishing the division of territory into two dioceses of Ahmedabad and Vartal It was dictated by Sahajanand Swami himself and written by Sadhu Shukmuni in the Darbar of Khachar Dada Ebhal at Gadhada in the year 1826. It was translated into English by Geo. P Taylor in 1903. It has been accepted as such by the Bombay High Court as valid document.
- Agree
- Kbhatt22
- Disagree
- Moksha88: [1]
- Apollo1203
- Harshmellow717: [1] — Preceding unsigned comment added by Harshmellow717 (talk • contribs) 09:42, 1 August 2020 (UTC)
- Agree
From "Original Research" Section:
Hi @Skubydoo. Thank you for taking the time to moderate and review this information. You're presence here is greatly appreciated. What you said makes sense. A sources reputation is not dependent upon its point of view as you mentioned but it also states "articles should reflect an appropriate balance of differing points of view" which I suppose is where this article is lacking because it is so aggressively skewed by one point of view. If this page is to include everything from the start of the organization to present, I believe for linear flow, ideological differences should exist under header of the branch whose ideology it is. If that makes sense, this would eliminate the implication that the ideology of one branch is applicable to the entire organization which this article is subtly doing in multiple ways. I am not good with sandbox as I am still learning wiki. Looking at this revision: https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Swaminarayan_Sampradaya&diff=968040776&oldid=968038926. As mentioned, I am trying to be subjectively neutral and only some of these changes I feel merit discussion. Running down that revision in order.
Desh vibah lekh is a recognized swaminarayan scripture by the highest courts of India. The IP address is trying to add it due to it being a fundamental part to the history and timeline of the organisation as it was originally approved by Swaminarayan and is recognized by all branches. It is the only explicitly documented succession plan by Swaminarayan. Kbhatt22 (talk) 10:46, 17 July 2020 (UTC)
- Edit 1: The ‘Major Branches’ section starts off with comprehensive details about the Lekh and its role in establishing the administrative dioceses. It is not called a scripture there but an ‘administrative document.’ Do you have supporting evidence that indicates this document is recognized as a scripture by any branch, or ideally all of them? Skubydoo (talk) 04:43, 19 July 2020 (UTC)
- Edit 1: Why is an administrative document different then a scripture? Merriam Webster defines a scripture as "a body of writings considered sacred or authoritative" .... the lekh being administrative in nature also has rules to be followed like the other scriptures listed, and fits the definition of being a writing considered sacred or authoritative. The book used as a source on this page called An Introduction to Swaminarayan Hinduism by William Raymond Brady (https://archive.org/details/introductiontosw0000will) mentions on pages 36, 44,49, 188, and 192 that it is accepted by the Ahmadabad branch and the vadtal branch as well as recognized by BAPS just they interperate it differently. This is actually supportive of my earlier point about one sided sources. The term "administrative document" is Baps interpretation as the Ahmdabad branch and vadtal branch see it as a spiritual document for all saying how "Acharya, saints, and haribhaktas should behave" https://www.swaminarayan.faith/media/3005/kalupur_magazine_english_nov-2014.pdf. We are already listing scriptures accepted by only one branch. This is one acknowledged by 3. Hopefully this resolves any questions you have and highlights that someone reading this article can walk away with one branches interpretations and not the sampadaya as a whole. Kbhatt22 (talk) 14:15, 19 July 2020 (UTC)
- Edit 1: I agree with you. The Lekh should be included in the article. Upon reviewing the ‘Scriptural tradition’ section and the reference you provided, I think it’s more logical to include the Lekh in the ‘Major branches’ section. The last line of the introductory paragraph for ‘Scriptural tradition,’ defines scriptures as “sacred biographies, ethical precepts, commentaries, and philosophical treatises,” none of which seem to address the purpose of the Lekh. Moksha88 (talk) 13:39, 22 July 2020 (UTC)
- After doing some research, I agree with Moksha 88 that the Lekh is not a scripture for all the branches and is best included in the successorship section. In regards to edit #2, after looking at the source I also think the original version was better. This way, the author’s statements aren’t misrepresented. For edit 5: the links should correspond to the titles of the Wikipedia articles for each diocese, which is Narnarayan Gadi and Laxminarayan Gadi. While chronological orders would make sense, both dioceses were technically formed at the same time, so it makes the most sense to order the links alphabetically. The opinions about the photos are still coming in and the conversation is productive, so I don’t feel I need to moderate that discussion. Best wishes, Skubydoo (talk) 01:36, 26 July 2020 (UTC)
- @Skubydoo: I think the edit numbers you connected too were off above. Your comment on edit 2 I think was meant for edit 3. I think the commend for edit 5 was meant for edit 4. In terms of the Lekh, I am not sure I follow the logic there. "The lekh is not a scripture for all branches" ..... Neither is the swaminarayan bhasyam but it is included here under scriptures. Is there a source that shows it is not for all branches? If it was authored by the founder Swaminarayan and consists of rules to be followed, why treat it differently to other texts? The scripture section captures scriptures that hold significance in the sampradaya and links too their individual wiki pages, which this inclusion would do.
- I also found this during research: https://indiankanoon.org/doc/1445588/?__cf_chl_jschl_tk__=e6dcb1fc2fbb4b70290e1e379d628730973dee6b-1595765847-0-Ab_Q6vKacVHW2UgDJybMXNgg-XveG6jHWK9ylsprOKSaMcWbkVHyNjgMKqLqeqZqsPuog-F1ztaS_6XEcltWnmUCpMKNki3ntPEoJPLdh0hz4kKRpQp_nIo8CkwxcZj_rphr_WxkYGehuJk4rWj6IdTx9ZwAc1EpzUqjL2gP5oW48dbDPUhSIiBeWSnMk_5iRVifqVDKdvWPitqjANLL3Mi-Sd_bXLXB7cY-ercGDtX8KS_i7v39bkjwLdsVC3stByhe4WAyNfMaPvsRTgnhV5hb0jn5_G8n79P7JQdxJZzeusn1Pj6YMcoMQb35diTSvHj5dQBywJBNuwhmbyLeNc_zbGAPCDEJ7kR1tJPt90V2
- This is an Indian court case proceedings where the Lekh was accepted as a valid shashtra which literally translated to scripture. It likens the Lekh, Satsangi Jivanam, and Shikshapatri as "three holy religious books" for the swaminarayan sect. What do we have for sources that suggest it isn't a scripture? I would think the Indian High court is pretty conclusive in its definition. Thoughts?
- As a recap, we have reached consensus on edit 2,3,and 4. Awaiting feedback on the images I have suggested for edit 5 in sandbox. I proposed new images for Aarti, Murti, and Vachnamrut to diversify the page. The rest of the images are good as is. I also propose we don't have branch leaders in image form here, adds little value to this page as we outline them in text and link to each branch page where the leader images already exist. If no one has any objection to the proposed images and approach, I suggest we make the changes for edits 2-5 and shelf the lekh discussion for after(if there is still pushback to the above sources and logic). Get all the agreed changes out of the way so we aren't carrying them forward in the discussion. Thoughts? Kbhatt22 (talk) 12:15, 26 July 2020 (UTC)
From "Follow up on edits" Section:
Edit B
Before his death in June 1830, Swaminarayan established the Sampradaya into two 'gadis' or 'dioceses': Nar Narayan Dev Gadi and Laxmi Narayan Dev Gadi. He had succession designated through a hereditary mode in a document titled the Desh Vibhag Lekh.[7]:132–156 In 1825, he formally adopted his nephews to maintain a bloodline leadership[8] and detailed duties and rituals in the Sampradaya's scriptures including the Shikshapatri and Satsangi Jeevan.[9] The 'Lekh' stated explicitly only Acharayas were allowed to establish temples and no sadhu may ever take control of a temple.[10]
Additional source that states the Lekh is not significant for BAPS https://www.google.com/books/edition/South_Asians_in_the_Diaspora/DsyiDwAAQBAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&bsq=lekh
This will allow the readers to know that Swaminarayans actions did not include BAPS ideology and his actual process into adopting his nephews as sons to maintain bloodline lineage and proper ownership of the sampraday was what he wanted and designed.
136.2.32.181 (talk) 13:53, 27 July 2020 (UTC)
- I can't speak to edit A. Little too deep of a dive for me to follow. I'll leave that for others to provide feedback on. For B, based on the source you provided. Swami Vato is to Baps as Lekh is to the other branches. @Skubydoo: I think including Lekh under scriptures would resolve this. Both are listed and both merit inclusion is how I see this. As for Edit C, is that branch specific ideology? I just hovered over every source in that section and every single source was BAPs branch sourced or from the Williams, Raymond Brady book which outlines it as Baps beliefs. Instead of the IP's proposal of removing it, I propose we move it under the Baps section under branches if it is specific to that branch. Thoughts? @Skubydoo: Kbhatt22 (talk) 16:20, 27 July 2020 (UTC)
New Comments
Kbhatt22 stated earlier [see diff] that Swaminarayan himself signed the Lekh however, looking at the Lekh itself [see link] it appears Swaminarayan did not sign it, or write it for that matter. Second, Kbhatt22 cites the high court’s use of the term holy religious books to describe the Lekh as a definitive statement validating the Lekh’s characterization as a scripture [see diff]. However, the Holy book is the term used by the involved parties. The court itself is not stating that this a holy book, it is simply referring to it as such since the involved parties mention it as such. In my opinion, the use of the Lekh in the court case elucidates its function as a legal administrative document as opposed to a religious scripture. Editors acknowledge that the lekh is not considered a sacred scripture by all branches. Referencing a statement from Williams’ book, Kbhatt22 further suggests that the Swamini Vato is not accepted by all branches [see diff]. The problem with this argument is that while Williams makes it clear that the Lekh is only accepted by two branches, but not by others, in regards to the Swamini Vato he says that while the Swamini Vato is a primary text for one branch, Williams doesn’t say that it is not accepted as a scripture by other branches. In fact, the Swamini Vato is published and accepted as a scripture by all the branches of the sampradaya, [here are a few examples 1, 2, 3, 4 ]. For this reason, I would argue that the Lekh would not be included in the scripture section, while the Swamini Vato should. As the Lekh is an important document to some branches it has been included where appropriate. However, because the Lekh is not considered a scripture by all branches it is not included in the scriptures section. The scriptures section includes texts accepted by all branches. Therefore, I feel the term “administrative document” is more appropriate in this case because the document functions in some branches of the sampradaya administratively, — it accords administrative positions of significant value, i.e acharyaship, for instance. What is operative in a text’s categorization as a scripture or administrative document, or otherwise, is of course it’s content but more importantly its use and function. The Lekh doesn’t necessarily function as a scripture, as much as it does administratively, namely, in establishing administrative positions of some branches of the sampradaya. Administrative documents are very important when it comes to determining a branch’s organizational structure, and this document serves most explicitly in that way, so I’m definitely for keeping how we term the Lekh as is. Oxford English Dictionary published by the Oxford Academic Press represents scripture with these examples of texts: “the Bible; the Old and New Testaments” and the “Torah, the Prophets (former and latter), and the Hagiographa.” Both of these sets of texts are dedicated almost expressly to doctrine, theology, and religious accounts (for instance, of the Genesis, etc.). They also function and are used precisely for such content within their respective religions. Terming the Lekh a scripture would place it into this context, which seems foreign considering the document’s function. My point is that, therefore, terming it so may amount to a disservice to the document’s significance as an administrative document. Kbhatt22 makes an argument that it functions as a scripture, which I think is a possible argument that can be made, but I don’t find it as convincing as the above logic, so after some consideration, I would support the approach of leaving it as is, so that its important role as an administrative document is highlighted. Harshmellow717 (talk) 09:29, 1 August 2020 (UTC)
- The scripture I suggested not applying to all branches that is listed is already was not Swami ni Vato like you mentioned above. That would be an incorrect summary of my point. I was referring to the Swaminarayan Bhashyam which is written and accepted by one branch. So the argument that the Lekh should not be listed because it only applies to 3 branches and not all falls flat because we already list something that only applies to 1 and not all. That was all I was saying their. Since most of the above counter is based on the assumption of comparing the application of the lekh and swami ni vato and I was comparing the application of the Bhashyam book and Lekh's application to branches, I think the above counter doesn't apply. In the court link i found, it is referenced as a holy book by the judge in the judges notes section. The other source listed outlines it as the "constitution." That other source, the Hindutatva, has been used as a source on this page for other things as well. It is accepted by more branches then the other texts listed. Kbhatt22 (talk) 12:16, 1 August 2020 (UTC)
- To follow up on the signature point, I was clicking through various sources about the lekh and ended up here during searching: http://www.swaminarayanmuseum.com/highlights.html and thought that this was refering to the lekh. It is not clear if it is so I withdraw that point. It is important to note that the two links you specified about the lekh above categorize it as a scripture which is the heart of my point here that it is a scripture. Kbhatt22 (talk) 00:04, 2 August 2020 (UTC)
Akshar-Purushottam Darshan (Previously Edit C)
Hello all, between the sandbox and the 3 different threads on the talk page, the discussion was getting difficult to follow so I have decided to create a new section for each point being addressed. I have taken the liberty to add relevant discussions from "Original Research" and "Follow up on edits" sections on the talk page. Please note in an effort to streamline the discussion the previous comments pasted over from other sections have been modified to only include content relevant to the point being addressed.
From "Original Research" Section:
- This page is intended to capture the entire sampradaya so everyone is for diversification where it is needed like the images discussion above. Lets let all the pending changes be worked out and then if there are any additional proposals, we can all discuss after. I think the 4 edits proposed in my sandbox have been being discussed for almost 2 weeks now. Feel free to add feedback or alternate suggestions in my sandbox for my proposed changes as additional bullet items. I would like to complete all the changes being discussed already first before starting new discussions if that is ok with everyone. This would ensure we dont mix up multiple discussions. the IP below has created a section for Akshar pursotam darshan so we can keep this section about the 4 edits outlined and discussed so far. Thanks Kbhatt22 (talk) 17:17, 27 July 2020 (UTC)
From "Follow up on edits" Section:
- Edit C
I am proposing removing references to Akshar-Purushottam Darshan in this article. It is not something created by Swaminarayan and has way too much undue weight on this article. It is a synthesis of sources and cherry picking of scriptures by the BAPS founder and he was legally barred from entering the Swaminarayn Sampraday premises by a judge for making up his own crap that led him to getting his followers to worship him instead. How does the shikshaprati have a tiny blurb about it from a BAPS sourced book while BAPS supporting items like Akshar-Purushottam Darshan and Swamini Vato are heavily weighted in here?
136.2.32.181 (talk) 13:53, 27 July 2020 (UTC)
- I can't speak to edit A. Little too deep of a dive for me to follow. I'll leave that for others to provide feedback on. For B, based on the source you provided. Swami Vato is to Baps as Lekh is to the other branches. @Skubydoo: I think including Lekh under scriptures would resolve this. Both are listed and both merit inclusion is how I see this. As for Edit C, is that branch specific ideology? I just hovered over every source in that section and every single source was BAPs branch sourced or from the Williams, Raymond Brady book which outlines it as Baps beliefs. Instead of the IP's proposal of removing it, I propose we move it under the Baps section under branches if it is specific to that branch. Thoughts? @Skubydoo: Kbhatt22 (talk) 16:20, 27 July 2020 (UTC)
- I've taken a look at the point the above user made on 'Edit C'. The sources that are speaking to this 'Akshar-Purshottam Darshan' seem to come from academic sources and don't seem 'cherry picked'. Of note, all the sources mentioned have been published by various universities, and academic organizations. I've noticed that this english translation of this 'Vachanamrut' text has been called into question as well. I am not too familiar with this text, however it is seemingly very often cited in other academic sources on the subject of this Swaminarayan Sampraday and therefore I see it being used here as ok. I am following this discussion and have sporadically had time to weigh in, but I welcome the discussion to move further. ThaNDNman224 (talk) 02:17, 28 July 2020 (UTC)
- I am not suggesting they are not academic. I am suggesting if the 'Akshar-Purushottam Darshan' is a branch specific idealody like the IP claims, then we can move it under the branch as opposed to the proposal of outright removal. That's all. I ctrl+f the vachnamrut linked here and the term 'Akshar-Purushottam Darshan' did not appear in it also. The only source I saw in that section that uses that phrase was 'Swaminarayan's Brahmajnana as Aksarabrahma-Parabrahma-Darsanam' by Bhadreshdas Swami who came up as a monk from the Bochasanwasi Akshar Purushottam Swaminarayan Sanstha. The other source uses is the book by Swami Paramtattvadas who is also listed as a monk under that same branch/group. So I am simply asking if this is branch specific idealody or general sampradaya idealody? Can we find another source that suggests another branch shares this ideology? The answer to that I think would dictate the discussion around "Edit C' I feel. Kbhatt22 (talk) 03:33, 28 July 2020 (UTC)
- I agree with ThaNDNman224 (talk · contribs) about “Edit C”. All but one source listed in the Metaphysics section is an academic, secondary source, the other being the English translation of the Vachanamrut, which the cited academic sources also reference. Therefore, in my opinion, this Vachanamrut is branch agnostic as it is widely cited in academic articles related to the Swaminarayan Sampradaya. Please see the list of scholarly sources cited in the Metaphysics section:
- Paramtattvadas, Sadhu (17 August 2017). An introduction to Swaminarayan Hindu theology. Cambridge, United Kingdom: Cambridge University Press. ISBN 978-1-107-15867-2. OCLC 964861190.
- Kim, Hanna (2002). Being Swaminarayan: the ontology and significance of belief in the construction of a Gujarati diaspora. UMI Dissertation Services. OCLC 452027310.
- Kim, Hanna (2014) "Svāminārāyaṇa: Bhaktiyoga and the Akṣarabrahman Guru". In Singleton, Mark; Goldberg, Ellen (eds.). Gurus of modern yoga. New York, NY: Oxford University Press. ISBN 978-0-19-993871-1. OCLC 861692270.
- Gadhia, Smit (2016). "Akshara and its four forms in Swaminarayan's doctrine". In Williams, Raymond Brady; Trivedi, Yogi (eds.). Swaminarayan Hinduism: tradition, adaptation and identity (1st ed.). New Delhi, India: Oxford University Press. ISBN 978-0-19-908657-3. OCLC 948338914.
- Trivedi, Yogi (2016). "Multivalent Krishna-bhakti in Premanand's Poetry". In Williams, Raymond Brady (ed.). Swaminarayan Hinduism: tradition, adaptation and identity (1st ed.). New Delhi, India: Oxford University Press. ISBN 978-0-19-908657-3. OCLC 948338914.
- Brahmbhatt, Arun (2016). "The Swaminarayan commentarial tradition". In Williams, Raymond Brady; Trivedi, Yogi (eds.). Swaminarayan Hinduism: tradition, adaptation and identity(1st ed.). New Delhi, India: Oxford University Press. ISBN 978-0-19-908657-3. OCLC 948338914.
- Bhadreshdas, Sadhu; Aksharananddas, Sadhu (1 April 2016), "Swaminarayan's Brahmajnana as Aksarabrahma-Parabrahma-Darsanam", Swaminarayan Hinduism, Oxford University Press, pp. 172–190, doi:10.1093/acprof:oso/9780199463749.003.0011, ISBN 978-0-19-946374-9
- Kim, Hanna (2016). "Thinking through Akshardham and the making of the Swaminarayan self". In Williams, Raymond Brady; Trivedi, Yogi (eds.). Swaminarayan Hinduism: tradition, adaptation and identity (1st ed.). New Delhi, India: Oxford University Press. ISBN 978-0-19-908657-3. OCLC 948338914.
- @Harshmellow717: Hey Harshmellow717. Thanks for outlining the sources. That is very helpful. I agree with you and ThaNDNman224 (talk · contribs) that this should not be removed. I am simply questioning the placement in the article. None of the other sources use the phrase 'Aksarabrahma-Parabrahma-Darsan' except the two from Baps origin. Please see my last comment for more details on the reasoning here. None of the sources above imply or suggest that that phrase is branch agnostic. It also does not exist in the vachnamrut from my ctrl+f search. That phrase is listed under the branch it is associated with already. At the very least, shouldn't we remove that phrase from the Metaphysics section? The rest is sourced and fine but it seems odd to have a branch specific ideology listed for a section applicable to the entire sampradaya. No one has surfaced a source that links that ideology with any of the other branches? Please provide one if it exists or is implied in the above sources that are not branch specific in origin.
- I believe there’s a difference in how the unregistered user is interpreting the Swaminarayan Sampradaya which underlies Edit C and the other suggested edits. The Swaminarayan Sampradaya encompasses all the branches. This interpretation is based on the majority of secondary sources available which I have outlined here. Thus, it’s incorrect to state,
because BAPS, Maninagar, and Sokdha are all included in the Swaminarayan Sampradaya and thus merit inclusion in this article. Undue weight would be to represent a minority opinion as the majority opinion based on available scholarly sources, which in this case would be to assert that these subgroups do not fall within the Swaminarayan Sampradaya and thus should be excluded from the article altogether. Please also note that the list of references I have provided are published by branch agnostic publishers, not BAPS, similar to the list by @Harshmellow717:. The claim that these sources are BAPS in origin remains unverified. Moksha88 (talk) 18:06, 28 July 2020 (UTC)“the BAPS founder and he was legally barred from entering the Swaminarayn Sampraday premises by a judge for making up his own crap that led him to getting his followers to worship him instead,”
- @Moksha88: My feed back addressed some of those concerns. I agree with you that the proposal by IP to remove that section isn't right. Which is why I proposed moving that under the branch section. You said "The claim that these sources are BAPS in origin remains unverified." But the authors of both the texts sourced that explicitly use this phrase 'Aksarabrahma-Parabrahma-Darsan' are from a specific branch. I don't know how we can verify it any further. Do you have a source that uses that phrase linking it to any other branch besides BAPS? During research I found this, https://www.baps.org/News/2019/Akshar-Purushottam-Darshan-Pith-Established-by-BAPS-in-Kashi-16999.aspx They are claiming ownership of that concept. What is wrong with my proposal that we move that content under the branch section or at the very least, outline it is branch specific. I propose keeping it just like you, just wanting to add clarification if we have an opportunity to do so. Kbhatt22 (talk) 19:12, 28 July 2020 (UTC)
- I think the sources used are not cherrypicked, they are all academic and reliable sources. It does not appear to be synthesized either, which would be considered original research. The sources are from scholars and does not skew the information, the consensus among the scholars is in fact what is written in the article.Apollo1203 (talk) 02:50, 29 July 2020 (UTC)
- I am sorry but if the sources are all linked to originating from one branch then regardless of if you find them scholarly or not, I can present and prove a case of biased viewpoint. Which goes back to an earlier discussion we already had about diversification of sources. Can you justify the reasoning for not wanting diversification on this page? Kbhatt22 (talk) 09:11, 29 July 2020 (UTC)
- I think the sources used are not cherrypicked, they are all academic and reliable sources. It does not appear to be synthesized either, which would be considered original research. The sources are from scholars and does not skew the information, the consensus among the scholars is in fact what is written in the article.Apollo1203 (talk) 02:50, 29 July 2020 (UTC)
- @Moksha88: My feed back addressed some of those concerns. I agree with you that the proposal by IP to remove that section isn't right. Which is why I proposed moving that under the branch section. You said "The claim that these sources are BAPS in origin remains unverified." But the authors of both the texts sourced that explicitly use this phrase 'Aksarabrahma-Parabrahma-Darsan' are from a specific branch. I don't know how we can verify it any further. Do you have a source that uses that phrase linking it to any other branch besides BAPS? During research I found this, https://www.baps.org/News/2019/Akshar-Purushottam-Darshan-Pith-Established-by-BAPS-in-Kashi-16999.aspx They are claiming ownership of that concept. What is wrong with my proposal that we move that content under the branch section or at the very least, outline it is branch specific. I propose keeping it just like you, just wanting to add clarification if we have an opportunity to do so. Kbhatt22 (talk) 19:12, 28 July 2020 (UTC)
Continuing my points here: @Kbhatt22: and the unregistered user, before we can even discuss the Lekh and other suggested edits, we need to establish that the sources used in the ‘Metaphysics’ section are indeed reliable, scholarly secondary sources.
- As mentioned earlier, the matter sourced to the references outlined by Harshmellow are not cherry picked from their original context nor are they original research as previously suggested by the unregistered user. The Vachanamrut sections are from the references themselves as well. Feel free to verify yourself.
- @Kbhatt22: looking at WP:RS, reliability is established in three ways. First, all sources are books and scholarly articles which meet WP:SCHOLARSHIP. The Vachanamrut is an exception but that point has been addressed above}. Second, the list outlined above also meets the criteria for publisher. Third, the authors are all academics of the Swaminarayan Sampradaya, not just limited to one organization. One reference is incomplete, so I’m fixing it. I’m confused why you only mentioned [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Swaminarayan_Sampradaya&diff=970019891&oldid=970018205&diffmode=visual only 2. Finally, we are summarizing the current scholarly consensus in the field (WP:SOURCETYPES). All but one of the sources listed above was published in the last 10 years as opposed to the 2001 book published by Raymond Williams. Therefore, we have to acknowledge where the field stands today.Apollo1203 (talk) 04:12, 29 July 2020 (UTC)
- We are discussing the lekh above. Lets not re-run that discussion down here and keep that discussion above to avoid confusion. Also to be clear for everyone, the page history shows that that entire section was made by Apollo. Not that there is anything wrong with that but lets let others have some feedback in the section here. I did verify myself that the phrase was only in sources originating from one branch. Am still waiting for someone to surface a source that links that concept with another branch. I could not find such a source and the ones used, be it scholarly, are still biases and I continue to drive for diversification of sources, images, and equal representation for all branches. I still stand by my original proposal that we simply move that phrase under the branch whose ideology it is and resolve this dispute between the changes you had already made and the changes the IP suggests. I see merit on both sides. This is not my talking point, I am simply providing neutral feedback to help reach consensus here. Let it also be known that my concern/comments are not with the entire section....As outlined above, it is with the phrase 'Akshar-Purshottum Darshan' which based on research is branch specific and should be relocated. Please don't confuse my points about that one phrase and the bias in the sources representing that phrase to the whole section. I am not targeting the whole section. I quite frankly don't understand that whole section and just independent researched the one phrase and found it to be branch specific.
- The sources that are used to reference 'Akshar-Purshottum Darshan' violate the WP:IS policy as the source is not independent and is closely affiliated with the subject. The author of the source behind that that phrase is openly part of one branch so it is dangerous to imply it is accepted by the entire sampradaya the way it is currently presented on this page. This also means the source has a conflict of interest. Kbhatt22 (talk) 09:11, 29 July 2020 (UTC)
New Comments
Let me start by addressing a few of Kbhatt22’s assertions that are, in my opinion, erroneous. In regards to “Edit C”, I think that Kbhatt22 is confusing the role of primary and secondary sources. First, some of the content of both the metaphysics and vedanta commentaries sections draws from Swaminarayan’s teachings in the Vachanamrut, which is a source accepted by the sampradaya as whole and does not favor any particular branch of the sampradaya. Therefore these sections are not branch-specific ideology and should remain as is.
Second, The vast majority of sources cited in this article are secondary academic sources that are not sectarian. These sources are reliable as per WP:RS.
Third, the personal affiliations of some authors have been questioned. However according to WP:RS the authors’ cited work cannot be discounted for their presumed affiliation as the work that has been cited here has been vetted by peer review and published by high-quality, independent academic publishers such as Oxford University Press, Cambridge University Press, etc. Moreover, they state they are writing about Swaminarayan’s views as explained in his oral teachings in the Vachanamrut, not views based on branch-specific scriptures.
Fourth, the baps.org link mentioned by Kbhatt22 links to an article about the establishment of the Akshar Purushottam Darshan Pith. The “pith”-or ‘seat of learning’ is a research institute dedicated to the study of Swaminarayan’s philosophy, which is called Akshar Purushottam Darshan, according to scholarly sources. In this linked article, there is no claim made that BAPS is establishing the Akshar Purushottam Darshan, only that they are establishing an research institute based on this philosophy which Swaminarayan propounded. In the cited article, the Kashi Vidvat Parishad, an independent group of scholars unaffiliated with the Swaminarayan Sampradaya, endorse the Akshar Purushottam Darshan of Swaminarayan as a valid Vedanta Darshan. So, this doesn’t show that the term Akshar Purushottam Darshan is confined solely to one group.
Finally, it is possible that the use of the terms Akshar-Purushottam Darshan or Brahma-Parabrahm Darshan to describe the collection of spiritual beliefs based on Swaminarayan’s teachings in the Vachanamrut may be the respective author’s valid, scholarly contribution to the field, so it makes sense that the Vachanmrut (primary source) makes no mention of these terms. For lack of a better example, one might think of it as later scholars terming Chaitanya Mahaprabhu’s philosophy Achintya-bheda-bhed vada [1]. Though Chaitanya did not include that term in his writings himself, it describes his philosophy well, and thus has been accepted. Thus, one cannot make the argument that since Chaitanya didn’t coin the term and did not write about it anywhere, it cannot be used with regard to his philosophy. Similarly, Akshar-Purushottam Darshan is the term scholars are using for Swaminarayan’s metaphysics.
Now, getting to the actual text in the article: as the article stands currently, the term “Akshar-Purushottam Darshan” is mentioned 3 times, 1) as a redirect link for the metaphysics section, 2) in the vedanta commentaries section and 3) in the major branches section under BAPS. As per the above arguments, I don’t see anything wrong in this. However, Kbhatt22 asserts that this term may not be acceptable to all branches. Based on my research on this topic, I did not see any academic sources supporting Kbhatt22’s assertion, but when I was going through the rest of the Oxford University Press book that used the terms cited, I found another chapter by a Prof. Brahmbhatt that used an alternative term - Swaminarayan Vedanta - to describe Swaminarayan’s metaphysics. So, it seems both terms -- Akshar Purushottam Darshan and Swaminarayan Vedanta -- are used synonymously by scholars of this field. Since the term Swaminarayan Vedanta is talking about the Swaminarayan Sampradaya founded by Swaminarayan, it makes sense to call his metaphysics Swaminarayan Vedanta. Thus, I propose this alternative to the current text to take into account Kbhatt22’s personal preference while remaining true to the academic sources: In instance 1(redirect link for the metaphysics section), replace the term Akshar-Purushottam Darshan with Swaminarayan Vedanta. In instance 2(vedanta commentaries section), add the term Swaminarayan Vedanta to the existing text (I don’t think we can legitimately remove the existing term altogether since that is also a term used in scholarly literature), and for instance 3(BAPS section), keep it as it, since it is in the BAPS section and Kbhatt22 does not object to the term there. What do you all think? Skubydoo (talk · contribs), Apollo1203 (talk · contribs), Kbhatt22 (talk · contribs), Moksha88 (talk · contribs), ThaNDNman224 (talk · contribs), Applebutter221 (talk · contribs), and 136.2.32.181
Harshmellow717 (talk) 09:33, 1 August 2020 (UTC)
- Just to clarify, This was not an original proposal I made. Someone suggested removing it entirely, I dug in and found the sources originated from one branch and as discussed that has happened too much on this page and diversity is lacking. Even you have accepted that about images above. This is not "my personal preference" so I would prefer that you not make this a personal target please. I was not proposing removal of anything. Simply a reorder it on the page. I did ask above if someone had a source that remotely suggested 'Akshar Purshottam Darshan' was a phrase associated with another branch as I could not find anything to make that point. All the sources using that phrase simply originated from one branch or the author was directly from that branch. And if it in fact is a concept that can't be linked to other branches then we represent it as branch specific ideology. We have a situation where someone proposed removing it, someone suggested we keep it exactly the same.....I suggested if it is branch specific, we outline it as such for the reader and leave it like it is. Kbhatt22 (talk) 12:28, 1 August 2020 (UTC)
Removing redundant verbiage
ResolvedI noticed that in several areas of the article, the Swaminarayan Mantra explanation is basically being repeated, and therefore decreasing the value of the article. The additions are confusing and redundant as the same information is being repeated 3 times. The “original” structure before the edit (https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Swaminarayan_Sampradaya&diff=972184650&oldid=972183251) was much more readable. The edit I have made not only makes the article more clear, but also serves as the best place where the information about the Swaminarayan Mantra should be located - as it is critical to the history of the sampradaya, as its very name and the founder’s name originates from the mantra. Actionjackson09 (talk) 02:01, 15 August 2020 (UTC)
7th school of Vedanta
Similar to my post on the Akshar-Purshottam Darshan page I looked up the excerpt User: Joshua Jonathan referenced from Gavin Flood’s book and there are only two sentences about Swaminarayan in Flood’s book, and neither of them state that the Swaminarayan sect ascribes to the Shudhadvait philosophy. I then looked at the reference Flood cites, Raymond Williams’s The New Face of Hinduism, the Swaminarayan Religion (Cambridge University Press, 1984), but no specific page numbers. I reviewed this book and can’t find where Williams actually makes this claim. In fact, Williams clarifies in several instances that Swaminarayan’s philosophy has some similarities to Ramanujacharya’s Vishishtadvaita philosophy. Although Williams does briefly mention that the concept of Akshar is present in Vallabacharya’s Shudhadvait philosophy, he never states that the Swaminarayan philosophy is Shudhadvait or even similar to Shudhadvait. Since Gavin Flood’s book was published in 1996, other scholars have published more work in this area which clarify that his philosophy is different from Vallabhacharya and Ramunjacharya. WP: AGE MATTERS They do not describe Swaminarayan’s philosophy as Shudhadvait. WP:SOURCETYPES For example, you mention Arun Brahmbhatt’s chapter which cites the verse from the Shikshapatri, but he does so to highlight this confusion as he goes on to explain, “Despite this nominal alignment, Sahajanand Swami indirectly acknowledges that there is a difference between his system and Ramanuja’s.” The rest of his chapter is devoted to this analysis, so it would be a misrepresentation of this source to claim that Swaminarayan’s philosophy is Vishistadvait as well.
A quick Google search shows that the Akshar Purushottam Darshan has been recognized and discussed in the World Sanskrit Conference as a distinct Vedanta tradition (1). The World Sanskrit Conference brings together renowned Sanskritists and Indologists from around the world, and thus the recognition of Akshar Purushottam Darshan as a distinct Vedanta within this forum illustrates scholarly consensus. WP:RS/AC You say that this does not ‘change a bit of Flood’s observations’, but since Flood has not published on this topic since 1996 I assume you mean to say it does not contradict Flood’s observation. If that is what you mean, then I wonder which of Flood’s observations you are referring to? Please provide the specific page numbers for reference.
(1) https://www.easterneye.biz/world-sanskrit-conference-recognises-akshar-purushottam-darshan-as-distinct-vedanta-tradition/ Actionjackson09 (talk) 22:58, 9 August 2020 (UTC)
- See Talk:Akshar-Purushottam Darshan#Shuddhadvaita. Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 03:08, 10 August 2020 (UTC)
- I'd already corrected that statement; please don't use an old edit as an excuse to remove sourced info, as you did here. Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 03:51, 10 August 2020 (UTC)
I have moved the ‘Recognition as distinct school of Vedanta’ into the Beliefs section as it appears to be more appropriate there. The paragraph “According to Brahmbhatt…” which describes the difference between Swaminarayan’s system and Ramanuja’s seems out of place in the history section and is more appropriate for the beliefs section. In the beliefs section, it fits better because, first the metaphysics and soteriology are explained and now, how this system is related to other Vedanta systems is clarified. Apollo1203 (talk) 20:32, 14 August 2020 (UTC)
- To have the 'differences with'-info at the beliefs-section is okay; yet, what's missing are the similarities which you removed; see below. Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 12:19, 17 August 2020 (UTC)
Modes of succession paraphrasing
This edit is a series of quotes that can be trimmed considerably or paraphrased succinctly WP:QUOTEFARM, WP:TERSE. Finally, the last sentence which quotes from Williams repeats in import what the preceding sentence says, further showing this is poorly strung together. The edit I have made is more suitable for the paragraph that introduces the major branches. Actionjackson09 (talk) 01:58, 15 August 2020 (UTC)
- Could you provide diffs for the edits you're refering to? Thanks, Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 14:44, 17 August 2020 (UTC)
- You probably refer to this edit, which replaced
According to the Vadtal branche, "Gopalanand Swami was the chief ascetic disciple of Sajahanand," and "the acharyas have the sole authority to initiate sadhus and to install images in the temples."[1] According to the BAPS, Gunatitanand Swami was appointed successor of Sajahanand, and "the chief ascetics had been given the authority to perform the primary rituals of the group, including the initiation of sadhus," and "this authority had not been revoked when the acharyas were appointed."[2] They furthermore argue that those who life a strictly virtuous life are the ones worthy of inheritence. According to Williams, "[t]he emphasis is on the spiritual lineage rather than the hereditary lineage, and the claim is that the one who observes the rules should be the acharya."[3]
- with
The Laxminarayan Dev and Narnarayan Dev Gadis assert that the sole authority to ordain swamis and install sacred images rests with the acharyas.[1] However, BAPS believes that Gunatitanand Swami was appointed as successor of Swaminarayan. Thus, important rituals of the sampradaya, such as the ordaining of swamis, and the installation of sacred images in the mandirs can be performed by the guru, as authority is dictated by spiritual virtues rather than a hereditary lineage.[2]
References
- ^ a b Williams 2001, p. 59.
- ^ a b Williams 2001, p. 59-60.
- ^ Williams 2001, p. 60.
- The paraphrases omit several points:
- The idea of a 'chief ascetic disciple' was not exclusive to the BAPS:
According to the Vadtal branche, "Gopalanand Swami was the chief ascetic disciple of Sajahanand,"
. This adds a nuance to the claims of the BAPS. - The word "thus" starts a sentence which interprets and misrepresents Williams:
- Williams speaks of authority given to the "chief ascetics" (plural) which was not revoked by the installation of the acharyas; he does not speak of "the guru" (singular) who can perform important rituals;
- The phrase "not revoked" implies an acknowledgement of the authority of the acharyas, and sets a 'backdoor-argument' for the alleged rights of the chief ascetics, not a direct and univocal confirmation by Swaminarayan of the rights of the chief ascetics, let alone the appointment of a succeeding guru;
- The "strictly virtuous life" is mentioned separately by Williams, not as part of an argument concerning the not-mentioned guru;
- Williams makes clear, with the concluding quote, that the BAPS created it's own justification for it's claim of a spiritual inheritance.
- The idea of a 'chief ascetic disciple' was not exclusive to the BAPS:
- Direct quotes should be used when info can be controversial, misinterpreted, or misrepresented, as is the case here. Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 16:25, 17 August 2020 (UTC)
- Gopalanand has been removed before diff; I can't help but sensing a violation of WP:NPOV here. Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 07:34, 20 August 2020 (UTC)
- To add some further context. The Shikshapatri, which seems to be the bible equivalent in this religion, seems to outline the succession and existence of the acharya as well.
- https://www.google.com/books/edition/A_New_Face_of_Hinduism/AHI7AAAAIAAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&dq=shikshapatri+acharya&pg=PA29&printsec=frontcover
- https://www.google.com/books/edition/Shikshapatri_in_English/qbbeDwAAQBAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&dq=shikshapatri+acharya&pg=PT44&printsec=frontcover
- During Swaminarayans existence, he established the two Gadi branches and most importantly a defined succession plan for them. I dont think a single piece of non-secretarian evidence has been presented that suggests any established succession plan from Swainarayan for the authority he assigned to Gunatitand and Gopalanand. As outlined in your quote and point, the keyword I see is "retroactively" for how other branches over the faiths history have defined their existence. I think the current page selectively navigates around this to push the narrative from one branch. Just my takeaway. Thanks Kbhatt22 (talk) 22:18, 22 August 2020 (UTC)
- @Joshua Jonathan:Regarding the edit I made months ago 1, I too sensed an NPOV violation. I removed these two sentences,
Gopalanand Swami was considered the chief disciple by Vadtal. [source: Williams 2001] He was very learned in Ashtanga Vinyasa Yoga, and after the death of Swaminarayan, the responsibility of the Swaminarayan Sampradaya and the acharyas were left in the hands of Gopalanand Swami. Swaminarayan held Gopalanand Swami in very high regard. (Source: [Williams 2001, p.53]
- The first sentence caught my eye because no page number was included in the citation. I then verified the next sentence. When you read all the sentences together, it’s clearly original research. The Swaminarayan Gadi, not the Vadtal diocese, regards Gopalanand to be Swaminarayan’s successor.
“In an explicit rejection of the claims of the householder acharyas to be the legitimate successors of Swaminarayan, followers in this sect claim that Swaminarayan appointed an ascetic, Gopalanand Swami, to be his successor. The spiritual leadership is thought to be in the hands of the ascetic who is the successor to Gopalanand.” (Williams 2001, 52-3)
- Look at page 53, and you will find no mention of ashtanga yoga on this page, so it fails verification.
- Look again, and you can see that the only material I left is that which all the groups can agree upon. Nowhere did I leave any details to suggest any one ascetic was the true successor. Hence, the accusations of violating NPOV made by you and @Kbhatt22: are not in good faith (WP:AOBF) and unwarranted. Let’s stick to the content and policies (WP:AGF). Moksha88 (talk) 11:38, 25 August 2020 (UTC)
- I did not accuse anyone specifically in this discussion or make any accusations against anyone. I am simply stating there is a bizarre cadence of resistance against anything that isn't promoting one branch. I find it very odd. I am sorry you feel that is directed at you, because it wasn't. 88% of images originate from one branch, the only sectarian sources used or allowed are from one branch, and multiple other things on this page seem to be from the perspective of one branch and it more then likely was like that before any of us got here, but that doesn't mean we can't fix it. Kbhatt22 (talk) 12:06, 25 August 2020 (UTC)
- Also, I don't wish to engage in any form of fighting. I am simply making an observation and I am not the only one to have that sentiment. The IP that has now been banned did surface this comment of yours from over a decade ago when he/she did make a very direct accusation against you: https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Swaminarayan&diff=prev&oldid=93261344. It is very important to disclose any bias should it exist. You did label yourself a "representative" of one of the two branches in discussion. If you are a part of the faith, that is fine I think but it also could imply some bias. You can see on my talk page that the user that is now blocked asked me to pursue this and out of good faith, I refused too do so and guided him to the avenues should he choose to do so. I have no interest in targeting anyone for any reason. So again, sorry you feel that way. Kbhatt22 (talk) 12:13, 25 August 2020 (UTC)
- @Joshua Jonathan:Regarding the edit I made months ago 1, I too sensed an NPOV violation. I removed these two sentences,
- During Swaminarayans existence, he established the two Gadi branches and most importantly a defined succession plan for them. I dont think a single piece of non-secretarian evidence has been presented that suggests any established succession plan from Swainarayan for the authority he assigned to Gunatitand and Gopalanand. As outlined in your quote and point, the keyword I see is "retroactively" for how other branches over the faiths history have defined their existence. I think the current page selectively navigates around this to push the narrative from one branch. Just my takeaway. Thanks Kbhatt22 (talk) 22:18, 22 August 2020 (UTC)
@Moksha88: thank you for your reply. The second line of the text you removed was indeed a violation of WP:NPOV. Note, though, that I cited Williams (2001) p.59, writing
According to the Vadtal branche, "Gopalanand Swami was the chief ascetic disciple of Sajahanand,"
not that
the Vadtal diocese, regards Gopalanand to be Swaminarayan’s successor
You removed almost the exact sentence as I wrote,
Gopalanand Swami was considered the chief disciple by Vadtal.
This text is a correct presentation of Williams (2001). My text could be appended with another quote, from p.53:
According to the Swaminarayan Gadi, "Swaminarayan appointed [...] Gopalanand Swami to be his successor. The spiritual leadership is thought to be in the hands of the ascetic who is the successor to Golapanand."
That would do justice to these three different branches, in accordance with WP:NPOV; to only mention Gopalanand Swami, when there were several main disciples, and various views on their alleged successorship. violates WP:NPOV. It's clear that the different branches have different but overlapping (and, for outsiders, somewhat confusing) narratives on their origins and spiritual leadership. Exact quotes, trying to present all the different points of view, are then better than paraphrasing quotes, I think.
Note also this piece of info from Williams (2001), p.98:
Thus, in the temples associated with the Akshar Purushottam Sanstha, the image of Swaminarayan is flanked on the right by the image of Gunatitanand. Gopalanand Swami is often, but not always, present on the left side to represent all aspirants.
Clearly, Gopalanand Swami was an important person in the days of Swaminayaran; the views and claims of Vadtal and Swaminarayan Gadi did not come out of nowhere. Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 12:36, 25 August 2020 (UTC) NB: This is WP:QUOTEFARM. Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 11:38, 29 August 2020 (UTC)
Rename (again...)
ResolvedSince "sampradaya" not only refers to a system or school of thought, and various branches have various ideas about the correct line of sucession, it might be more apt to move this article to "Swaminarayan movement." This term is also used in the scholarly literature, and covers, or includes, the various denominations of 'Swaminayarism'. Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 13:41, 16 August 2020 (UTC)
- I am not sure I follow this sentence in your above post, “Since ‘sampradaya’ not only refers to a system or a school of thought….”, I am assuming the ‘not’ was a typo, and that you are asserting that a sampradaya only refers to a system or school of thought. Please correct me if I have misunderstood your point here. If that is what you mean, then I would say the following in response.
- Williams (2018) notes: “Swaminarayan is one of many manifestations of Hinduism, .... The common word in India for such groups is sampraday[a], which is difficult to translate” (p.2). And in the paragraph following this quote Williams (2018) says: “This revised edition brings the story of the Swaminarayan sampraday up to date through the enormous changes that are currently taking place in India and abroad” (p.2).
- Indeed those scholars who have used ‘movement’ instead of sampraday are not rejecting the use of ‘sampraday’ but using ‘movement’ as one admittedly imperfect (i.e. “difficult to translate”) English translation of ‘sampraday’. Other scholars have opted for different translations (such as faith). So, while I see that there have been various English translations of Sampradaya used by scholars in different contexts, I agree with Williams’ suggestion that each of these translations are lacking in some important ways. With movement, for example, I feel it too vague as a title for the article - as it could indicate a social, political, educational, art, music, or even terrorist movement, whereas the word sampradaya is more specific to a Hindu religious context and avoids this confusion.
- Also, as I mentioned, while it is not completely clear to me from what Joshua Jonathan has written in his post, I assume he is suggesting that since various branches have various modes of succession, they should be seen as different sampradayas. However, in reading through academic sources, it seems clear that scholars assert that even though some commonalities bind them together, a sampradaya can have within it various branches with various modes of succession and variations in belief and practice. This is true in the case of the scholarship both on the Swaminarayan Sampradaya and on other sampradayas. I have already given one example of this in my quotes of Williams(2018) above, but so as not to make the post overly long, I will give just two more representative examples of this to demonstrate scholarly use of the term Sampradaya demonstrates this point.
- See I Patel (2018): “The Swaminarayan Sampradaya is currently one of the fastest growing Hindu traditions in the world with over two thousand temples, including the popular Akshardham temples in Gandhinagar and New Delhi. While it started as a small group in the Saurashtra region of present-day Gujarat, today the Swaminarayan Sampraday comprises several transnational denominations, notably the Vadtal Gadi, the Ahmedabad Gadi, and the Bochasanwasi Shri Akshar Purushottam Swaminarayan Sanstha (BAPS), which together have more than five million members in India and abroad.” (p.2) This quote demonstrates that all denominations or branches listed fall under the Swaminarayan sampraday, and that a sampradaya is not monolithic and can and does have multiple viewpoints and branches within it.
- For another academic example of this use of Sampradaya outside of scholarship on the Swaminarayan sampradaya, see the Oxford Bibliography page on the Rāmānandī Sampradāya(note: no relation to the Ramanand Swami discussed in the Swaminarayan Sampradaya article): “Rāmānanda’s disciples (and subsequently their own disciples) likely followed these mixed teachings and, while passing them on, incorporated new theories or developed new interpretations. These traits resulted in a sampradāya highly differentiated in branches and sub-branches concerned with Rām bhakti.” (https://www.oxfordbibliographies.com/view/document/obo-9780195399318/obo-9780195399318-0197.xml). This makes clear that sampradayas can not only have branches but also sub-branches.
- So, after considering all of this, I don’t see the article name change to “Swaminarayan movement” having a strong enough benefit or solving a critical problem for it to be warranted, since as I mentioned, numerous academic sources indicate a sampradaya can include within it multiple branches that have multiple variations in practice, beliefs, and succession. Therefore, I feel that ‘ Swaminarayan Sampradaya’ is appropriate for the name of this article. Actionjackson09 (talk) 15:12, 19 August 2020 (UTC)
- You noticed indeed a missing part; it should have been "Since "sampradaya" not only refers to a system or school of thought, but also to a line of succession, and various branches have various ideas about the correct line of sucession". Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 16:23, 19 August 2020 (UTC)
- I agree with ActionJackson09 in his logic. I had also in my reading of academic sources run across what he states. I would also add Kim 2010, page 362 stating “This paper focuses on one specific group in the Swaminarayan sampradaya known as Bochasanwasi Shri Akshar Purushottam Swaminarayan Sanstha.” Basically, multiple academic sources are using the term Swaminarayan Sampradaya to include the multiple branches that are within it. So, I would reject Joshua Jonathan's assertion. Apollo1203 (talk) 02:16, 20 August 2020 (UTC)
- I can see that there are multiple terms used to describe this entity - movement, sampradaya, group, tradition, etc. But I am most convinced by one sentence in Williams (2018) that has been cited in ActionJackson09's post, which states: "Swaminarayan is one of many manifestations of Hinduism, .... The common word in India for such groups is sampraday[a], which is difficult to translate." As a scholar who has written and edited multiple books on the topic is saying that "sampraday" is the common name for the group in its place of origin, it makes sense to me that the title of the article should reflect this common name and remain as Swaminarayan sampraday. Tale.Spin (talk) 02:17, 31 August 2020 (UTC)
Manifestation and devotion
As mentioned above, I think that the article could elaborate more on the belief in Swaminarayan as a manifestation of God; the understanding of Akshar in the various branches; and the practice of devotion towards Vishnu/Krishna/Swaminarayan/akshar-guru. I found the interview in Williams (2001) p.87 enlightening; as a westerner, with a strong inclination towards nirguna Brahman (Zen Buddhism, Advaita Vedanta), I recognised what was told there. It's part of what I do, implicitly; here, it is made explicit. With this interview in mind, read the intro to Dasbodh is like "oh yes, of course; this is about the same." Ramana maharshi, usually depicted as an Advaitin, but regarded as an incarnation/manifestation of Shiva, giving darshan to his devotees: oh yes, now I see. It's obvious, but you've got to have a frame of reference to recognise it. There is a strong Advaita bias at Wikipedia, and very little is explained about actual devotional practice; most is about theory and philosophy. But to understand, feel what it's about, readers have to get info on what devotees do, and what they experience. Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 06:44, 31 August 2020 (UTC) PS: ever listened to George Harrison's My Sweet Lord from All Things Must Pass? Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 07:03, 31 August 2020 (UTC)
- That would be a good addition but also becomes dicey because all the branches share variations in those beliefs and practices. I think as long as it is segmented by branch, it would provide good value for the readers. I also think this leads into one of you're earlier suggestions of the page where it is more of a historical walk through of the faiths growth. Because then this page could represent the faith historically as a whole and then guide to each branches pages where their branch specific beliefs are outlined. This eliminates any possibility of one branches ideology coming off as applicable to the entire faith. An example is the Metaphysics section is written up currently to represent one branches beliefs and uses sources originating from one branch and I don't think all the branches accept it the way ti is currently written. Kind of gets confusing if its not prefaced with what branch it represents. Here is something that used to be on this page from Willaim Brodeys book on page 162 which is a more basic, branch agnostic belief:
- Upon initiation, Satsangi make 11 vows, called Niyams (Rules):
- Be non-violent
- Do not have any kind of relationship with a woman other than your wife
- Do not eat meat, including seafood, poultry products or eggs
- Do not drink products that contain alcohol, including medicines
- Never touch a widow woman whom you do not know
- Never commit suicide in any circumstances
- Do not steal
- Never blame others for something that you may not know about
- Never disparage God, Goddesses, or any religion
- Never eat someone's food who does not follow these eleven rules
- Never listen to holy stories from an atheist.
- So I agree. I think more practical day to day rituals or beliefs like this would better represent the faith as a whole on this page. Kbhatt22 (talk) 14:07, 31 August 2020 (UTC)
Proposed Addition to Practices Section
ResolvedWhile Sahajanand's ethical reforms have been regarded as a protest against immoral Pushtimarg practices,[1] Sahajanand was in fact influenced by and positive towards Vallabha and other Vaisna-traditions, and his reforms may have been primarily targeted against Tantrics, and against practices "associated with village and tribal deities."[2] In fact, Swaminarayan incorporated devotional practices of Vallabhas Pushtimarg,[3][4] to gain acceptance in western India.[4][note 1]
- Notes
- ^ Shruti Patel (2017): "it is probable that Sahajanand did not possess the means by which to initiate his views and have them or him be seamlessly accepted in western India at the outset of the century. For this reason, first incorporating common and observable aspects of Vaishava culture would have mitigated his appearing unknown, made Sahajanand’s aims seem less drastic, and contributed to advancing his local influence in with an aura of rootedness. By identifying with the widely-recognised Pustimarg in the course of worshipping Krsna the Svaminarayan foundation could be related to an identifiable, solidified ethos. Particularly, assimilation would be achieved more effortlessly with the adoption of select Pustimarg symbols. And yet, this would not require the sacrifice of core ideas or independence."[4]
- References
- ^ Williams 2018, p. 29.
- ^ Williams 2018, p. 30.
- ^ Williams 2001, p. 35.
- ^ a b c Patel 2017, p. 53.
Explanation: The second paragraph in Joshua Jonathan’s proposal, and the phrase about Vallabha’s devotional praxis at then end of the other discussion, is I feel better suited to the “Practices” section. I fail to see the point of discussing its inclusion in the belief’s section, when there is another section dealing with “Practices”. Thanks, Skubydoo (talk) 02:20, 31 August 2020 (UTC)
Apollo's Response
I agree that this is more relevant to the Practices section. However, I had mentioned problems with this particular formation. I have copied here the relevant problems that I had earlier noted (with additional context inserted in), and at the end, I’ve proposed a reformulation.
Overall, the first sentence is not an accurate description of what Williams is claiming. Williams makes no mention of “influence”, only that practices were adopted (Williams 2018: 30). Further, there is no explicit mention that Sahajanand was ‘positive towards Vallabha’, but only that practices were “affirmed.” Adding “positive towards Vallabha...” in the edit is too vague and it also inaccurately represents Williams’s claims. Williams notes further, in the context of the adoption of practices: “These decisions are consistent with his generally positive affirmations of other Vaishnava and Krishnite traditions, even though he criticised various forms of immoral conduct by some religious leaders and groups.” There is no specific mention of the “influence” of Vallabha or others and Williams describes a consistency among Swaminarayan’s tradition/practices and Vaishnava traditions. The edit needlessly highlights “Vallabha,” even as the import of Williams’s claim is more general: “Vaishnava and Krishnite traditions.” Further, it’s not clear why we need “While Sahajanand's ethical reforms have been regarded as a protest against immoral Pushtimarg practices,” as that is a claim Williams is rejecting, so it adds unnecessary clutter (Williams is talking within an academic discourse, so we do not need to include the negation of a claim, which a general reader wouldn’t have in mind).
In the edit, saying “against practices associated with village and tribal deities,” misrepresents what Williams is saying WP:RSCONTEXT. Williams notes: “That leaves open the interpretation that the primary focus of Swaminarayan’s criticisms were Tantrics and followers of another left-handed Shakti cult, known as Vama-Marga, which was popular at the time, and other disreputable practices associated with village and tribal deities, as François Mallison argues. Those rituals included animal sacrifices, eating meat, drinking intoxicants, and sexual license, all of which were prohibited in Swaminarayan’s teachings” (30). Williams prefaced the quote “village and tribal deities” with “disreputable practices associated with,” which the original edit doesn’t convey. misrepresenting the quote (again, WP:RSCONTEXT). (Here Williams is providing an interpretation, which although interesting does not seem to be significant enough to include in the article, because it is tentatively worded; indeed, he prefaces it with “That leaves open the interpretation”; and Williams himself isn’t proposing/nor it seems supporting the interpretation).
Regarding “In fact, Swaminarayan incorporated devotional practices of Vallabhas Pushtimarg, to gain acceptance in western India,” please see what I had mentioned earlier:
What is added is making a historical claim for the sampradaya which S Patel (2017) is clearly not emphasizing (WP:OR). There are more quotes within the same source that make it clear that Pushtimarg was a matter of identification and not for gaining recognition: “I would like to caution against reading the pointed but limited agreement with the Pushtimarg as a means by which to pin down the history of Svaminarayan development” (S Patel 2017: 54); “Though it has been valuable to understand how the Svaminarayan community engaged with the Pushtimarg, we should pause before implicitly extending this relationship to Sahajanand’s entire vision” (S Patel 2017: 57); the Pushtimarg (amongst other influences) was one reference point, not a catalyst for Sahajanand’s initiative (S Patel 2017: 57). S Patel (2017) clearly asserts that she does not stand behind any claim about Swaminarayan "utilising" Pushtimarg for an ulterior purpose, like gaining recognition. She says, "to be clear, I am not implying that forging a connection to the Pushtimarg excluded the possibility of genuine respect and affection for it by Sahajanand, but retaining likeness to establishment also would have been potent in sanctioning novelty" (53). She uses the phrase "would have been potent," meaning that retaining likeness may have helped sanction the novelty that colored Swaminarayan's distinct and categorically novel tradition. But that such a utilization of the support of established traditions did occur is a claim Patel does not unequivocally affirm. She, in fact, thinks it important to clarify precisely that she doesn't mean to say that. And thus quoting her to suggest Swaminarayan's “utilising elements of Vallabha’s Pushtimarg to gain recognition” is misrepresenting her intention and involves cherrypicking (WP:Cherrypicking) a quote.
Hence, please see my reformulation, which removes undue emphasis etc., but still conveys the insight Joshua Jonathan seeks to provide:
- "The practices Swaminarayan prescribed were in part consistent with “Vaishnava and Krishnite traditions.” (Williams 2018, 30) Shruti Patel argues that such a consistency with existing practices would have aided in “sanctioning [the] novelty” of sampradaya. (S Patel 2017, 53)"
Apollo1203 (talk) 22:09, 2 September 2020 (UTC)
- Hello @Apollo1203:, thank you for the thorough explanation. I understand the logic behind your proposal and agree it is more coherent and concise WP:BECONCISE. As I stated earlier, I believe this would fit best in the ‘Practices’ section. Best wishes, Skubydoo (talk) 03:05, 3 September 2020 (UTC)
I'd already reformulated my proposal; seems to have escaped the attention of Skubydoo:
While Sahajanand's ethical reforms have been regarded as a protest against immoral Pushtimarg practices,[1] Sahajanand affirmed the devotional practices of Vallabha and other Vaisna-traditions, and his reforms may have been primarily targeted against Tantrics, and against practices "associated with village and tribal deities."[2] In fact, Swaminarayan incorporated devotional practices of Vallabhas Pushtimarg,[3][4] to gain acceptance in western India.[4][note 1]
- Notes
- ^ Shruti Patel (2017): "it is probable that Sahajanand did not possess the means by which to initiate his views and have them or him be seamlessly accepted in western India at the outset of the century. For this reason, first incorporating common and observable aspects of Vaishava culture would have mitigated his appearing unknown, made Sahajanand’s aims seem less drastic, and contributed to advancing his local influence in with an aura of rootedness. By identifying with the widely-recognised Pustimarg in the course of worshipping Krsna the Svaminarayan foundation could be related to an identifiable, solidified ethos. Particularly, assimilation would be achieved more effortlessly with the adoption of select Pustimarg symbols. And yet, this would not require the sacrifice of core ideas or independence."[4]
- References
- ^ Williams 2018, p. 29.
- ^ Williams 2018, p. 30.
- ^ Williams 2001, p. 35.
- ^ a b c Patel 2017, p. 53.
I think it's quite relevant to mention that
While Sahajanand's ethical reforms have been regarded as a protest against immoral Pushtimarg practices,[1] [...] his reforms may have been primarily targeted against Tantrics, and against practices "associated with village and tribal deities.[2]
Swaminarayan has often been portrayed as a reformer of the Pusjtimarg, whereas this text offers an alternative option. Regarding the relation with other Vedanta-traditions, it's clear that Swaminarayan was firmly rooted in other Vedanta-traditions. Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 03:24, 3 September 2020 (UTC)
- Hello @Joshua Jonathan: I did not overlook your edit, thank you for checking. I believe the edit by Apollo1203 does a better job of accurately portraying the scholarly sources. From what I have read, you haven’t substantively engaged with any of the summaries of sources that have been raised by other users. If you could share your reflections on the sources, along with the summaries and analysis other users have made, perhaps I can better understand where you’re coming from. Best wishes, Skubydoo (talk) 03:52, 4 September 2020 (UTC)