Talk:State of Palestine/Archive 19

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RfC on statehood

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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Should the lead sentence say that the State of Palestine is "a state"? –St.nerol (talk) 07:26, 12 October 2023 (UTC)

Discussion

• Yes as it is the title of the article. Slatersteven (talk) 10:38, 12 October 2023 (UTC)
• Yes That's the entire topic of the article. Jeppiz (talk) 12:07, 12 October 2023 (UTC)
• Yes, but moreover, RFCs shouldn't be driven by international events. Iskandar323 (talk) 12:14, 12 October 2023 (UTC)

Agreed. Let's not assume motives, but the RfC does seem poor. Also, RfCs are typically tools after a discussion. I don't see that discussion. A speedy close to this RfC would not seem uncalled for as it clearly isn't going anywhere. Jeppiz (talk) 12:18, 12 October 2023 (UTC)

• Comment The WP:RFCBEFORE consists of the RFC proposer asserting, after a short discussion, that Palestine is not a state despite being pointed to an established consensus. Selfstudier (talk) 12:23, 12 October 2023 (UTC)

  Ther has been a ton of discussion over this, and it always comes down to, yes it is a state. Slatersteven (talk) 12:28, 12 October 2023 (UTC)1-3294

• Comment (invited by the bot) The title is (necessarily) vague, including on contested areas/terms/facts. (Which definition of "state"? A single defined piece of geography as is typical for a state/country? Or varies depending on the definition? According to who / who claims what?) IMO the text of the article should start informing the reader of the particulars rather than launching from / doubling down on one of the many possible meanings of the title or repeating the vague (implied) statement from the title. North8000 (talk) 15:12, 12 October 2023 (UTC)
• Yes - please see this prior RFC where there was widespread agreement on "state". There has been no relevant discussion about that since then, making the opening of this RFC bizarre. There has been no argument presented as to why the current wording is incorrect or inaccurate, and no argument given by the initiator of the RFC. Absent all those things this should just be closed with a request to raise disputes on the talk page in the normal fashion before repeating a recently run RFC (or close enough). nableezy - 15:23, 12 October 2023 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

I apologize for not starting the RfC in a proper way; it's clear that I should have asked a more experienced editor. As for my intentions, they could hopefully be clarified by reading the short preceding discussion. Contrary to @Selfstudier, I have made no assertion about the statehood of Palestine. I have pointed to a lack of consensus in the reliable sources. –St.nerol (talk) 21:05, 12 October 2023 (UTC)

Typo

has been blockaded Israel --> has been blockaded by Israel — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2001:1C01:4E03:CD00:D9F2:E8F2:B:E9E3 (talk) 02:08, 13 October 2023 (UTC)

Done, thanks. CMD (talk) 02:13, 13 October 2023 (UTC)

Acronyms

A number of acronyms are used without a previous reference. Specifically PLO and PNA in the third paragraph. It would help greatly to have them link to their articles. Xitit (talk) 16:24, 15 October 2023 (UTC)

 Fixed Left guide (talk) 01:24, 18 October 2023 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 23 October 2023

Incorrect Statement Quoted: "Officially governed by the Palestine Liberation Organization (PLO), it claims the West Bank (including East Jerusalem) and the Gaza Strip as its territory, though the entirety of that territory has been under Israeli occupation since the 1967 Six-Day War.[5][18]"

Incorrect statement that the Palestinian Territories (West Bank and Gaza) have been under Israeli occupation since 1948. Gaza has been under full autonomy and under self control since 2005. The PA took it back in 2005 and Hamas took over full governance and control in 2007.

Evidence:

Wikipedia page: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_disengagement_from_Gaza

Please change:

...it claims the West Bank (including East Jerusalem) and the Gaza Strip as its territory, though the entirety of that territory has been under Israeli occupation since the 1967 Six-Day War.

To the following:

...it claims the West Bank (including East Jerusalem) and the Gaza Strip as its territory, though with respect to Gaza, it has been under self governed autonomy by the P.A. from 2005-2007 and by Hamas from 2007 to the present day. Newart61 (talk) 17:20, 23 October 2023 (UTC)

Not done. 1) See the section immediately above, where the question of Gaza occupation was dealt with. 2) The article does not claim since 1948, only from 1967. Selfstudier (talk) 17:24, 23 October 2023 (UTC)

Recent reverts against consensus

The last RFC is here, it says

"The community agrees that Palestine is a state. There is substantial and well-argued support that says we should add certain qualifiers such as "sovereign" or "de jure" in front of the word "state", but this falls short of an actual consensus to add these words. There is also no consensus to remove the disputed words. So the question is what to do without a consensus....... I believe it's right to remove the disputed phrases and I will do that with my next edit."

There are other discussions still on this talk page (two of them) and multiple others in the archives, there is no consensus to qualify the word state.

Bringing out of date or a limited number of sources are no justification for editing against consensus, a new RFC will be required to do that. Selfstudier (talk) 17:42, 15 October 2023 (UTC)

Agreed, it's covered by the older RfC, as well as the recent one above. DFlhb (talk) 23:09, 15 October 2023 (UTC)

This "consensus" seems to go against WP:BURDEN, since there is no source provided which says that SoP is, without qualification, a state. –St.nerol (talk) 18:12, 16 October 2023 (UTC)

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-palestinians-statehood-idUSBRE8AR0EG20121201 even says its sovereign, "The 193-nation U.N. General Assembly on Thursday overwhelmingly approved the de facto recognition of the sovereign state of Palestine after Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas called on the world body to issue its long overdue "birth certificate".

Fyi, this recognition was a crucial part of unlocking the Palestinian claims at the ICC, where Israel, the US etc objected to that as well, overruled. Selfstudier (talk) 18:41, 16 October 2023 (UTC)

Political decisions tend to be political, so a news source about countries recognizing Palestine is not exactly what I think is needed what we need. Is there something more academic, which argues actual, actualized statehood? –St.nerol (talk) 19:59, 18 October 2023 (UTC)

what I think is needed is not the issue, there is a consensus that Palestine is a state. Selfstudier (talk) 22:15, 18 October 2023 (UTC)

The most relevant consensus would be among scholars and academic publications, not among political leaders or wiki editors. –St.nerol (talk) 14:01, 19 October 2023 (UTC)

Wrong. Selfstudier (talk) 14:25, 19 October 2023 (UTC)

For an encyclopedia? Politics and opinion more relevant than scholarship? Please elaborate. –St.nerol (talk) 15:43, 19 October 2023 (UTC)

There is a WP consensus and that is all that matters. That you are not in agreement with it matters not at all. Selfstudier (talk) 15:49, 19 October 2023 (UTC)

My opinion does not matter. However, what the sources actually say matters a lot more than a fleeting consensus. There is already a minor collection (4 and counting) in the discussion above. It could be built upon and organised until, with the support of the community, the lede can give WP:BALANCE to the question of statehood, and not just claim it as a fact. –St.nerol (talk) 21:08, 19 October 2023 (UTC)

That's a better approach. Selfstudier (talk) 21:33, 19 October 2023 (UTC)

Well, it's consistently been my approach. I have not made any reverts on the article. –St.nerol (talk) 15:02, 26 October 2023 (UTC)

Occupied vs controlled

In the infobox, it states that “all of the territory is occupied by Israel.” However the argument is that area A and most notably Gaza do not fall under actual military occupation. However, Israel controls significant aspects of these territories, including Gaza. Would it be more correct to say “all controlled by Israel” as opposed to “occupied?” The Great Mule of Eupatoria (talk) 11:33, 27 October 2023 (UTC)

See https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/international-and-comparative-law-quarterly/article/abs/status-of-gaza-as-occupied-territory-under-international-law/654DB8FE844ED96C47AAA3B213D438F0 — Preceding unsigned comment added by Selfstudier (talk • contribs) 11:37, 27 October 2023 (UTC)

Does Gaza make up the majorty of the Palestinian State? Slatersteven (talk) 11:39, 27 October 2023 (UTC)

Israel does not control Gaza. That is simply not true, no matter how you want to look at the situation. רון18 (talk) 10:18, 4 November 2023 (UTC)

I would check some sources rather than relying on your own personal opinion, which is entirely incorrect. Selfstudier (talk) 11:51, 4 November 2023 (UTC)

The expert opinion given in the academic journal ("The status of Gaza as occupied territory under international law". International & Comparative Law Quarterly. 72 (4): 1069–1088. October 2023. doi:10.1017/S0020589323000349.) disagrees with your opinion, and wikipedia prefers wp:reliable sources. True, the control is not absolute but nevertheless is very substantial (as the article explains). No movement in or out without Israeli permission and inspection. Control of water and electricity supply. Control of food imports. etc.--𝕁𝕄𝔽 (talk) 11:58, 4 November 2023 (UTC)

Coming back to the original question, if we accept the journal article's "evolved" definition of occupation (beyond the traditional "boots on the ground" definition), Israel "effectively" occupies all of Palestine. But, to meet Wikipedia's standards, more than one RS would be needed for such a controversial statement. Compare Israeli settlement, where four citations are given in support of the statement that the settlements are illegal under international law. --𝕁𝕄𝔽 (talk) 11:58, 4 November 2023 (UTC)

Occupied Palestine?

“The state claims the West Bank (including East Jerusalem) and the Gaza Strip as its territory, though the entirety of that territory has been under Israeli occupation since 1967.”

There are no Israelis occupying either of these areas. Israel vacated Gaza and handed it over to the PA in 2005. Hamas subsequently took control, suspended elections in Gaza 17 years ago, and destroyed the groundwater with malfunctioning wastewater treatment making them dependent on Israel. An Aljazeera reference? Really???

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/gaza-strip-controls-s-know-rcna119405 24.113.96.238 (talk) 20:08, 17 October 2023 (UTC)

The international community considers Gaza as occupied due to the extent of Israeli control over it. Selfstudier (talk) 20:16, 17 October 2023 (UTC)

@Selfstudier That's redefining the verb occupy. You can say the territory is blockaded by Israel and Egypt, but not that it's occupied by anyone, in my opinion. 71.228.185.2 (talk) 03:29, 19 October 2023 (UTC)

Selfstudier did not refer to their personal opinion in the prior comment. CMD (talk) 03:50, 19 October 2023 (UTC)

I am not referring to the everyday meaning of the word occupy. The oPt or occupied Palestinian territories are defined as the West bank (including East Jerusalem) and Gaza. The legal consensus in regard to the latter is summarized here. Selfstudier (talk) 10:31, 19 October 2023 (UTC)

The full story should refer to Israeli disengagement from Gaza and the Egyptian and Israeli Blockade of the Gaza Strip, rather than just calling it occupied. Chaojon (talk) 14:11, 10 November 2023 (UTC)

Read the article, the "disengagement" is linked in the lead and the blockade has nothing to do with occupation other than being an integral part of it. Make an editrequest if something should be altered in the article. Selfstudier (talk) 14:22, 10 November 2023 (UTC)

@24.113.96.238 I agree. Seems fair to delete the end of that sentence (", though the entirety of that territory has been under Israeli occupation since 1967") since the next sentence reports the Israeli settlements in the West Bank anyway. One can argue that the Gaza strip is not really independent in the full meaning of the word, but not that it is "occupied" by Israel. 71.228.185.2 (talk) 03:26, 19 October 2023 (UTC)

See my comment above. Selfstudier (talk) 14:25, 19 October 2023 (UTC)

Rubin, 1999, The World Encyclopedia of Contemporary Theatre: The Arab World

"Although the concept of the Palestine region and its geographical extent has varied throughout history, it is now considered to be composed by the modern State of Israel, the West Bank and the Gaza Strip."

- Rubin, 1999, The World Encyclopedia of Contemporary Theatre: The Arab World, p. 186, at Google Books

A book on contemporary theatre is not an appropriate source to define geopolitical boundaries, nor is the editor of the book qualified to discern the veracity of that statement. Spork2367 (talk) 19:41, 13 November 2023 (UTC)

Seems a valid objection. Slatersteven (talk) 19:44, 13 November 2023 (UTC)

How about "The geographic definition “Palestine" went through significant changes and developments. What is called "Palestine" today is nothing except the British mandatory geographic definition of the borders, resulting from agreements with France during and after World War one." Selfstudier (talk) 19:54, 13 November 2023 (UTC)

Factually incorrect description

The PLO has not been the government or leaders of Palestine since 2006, when Hamas was put into power and has been ever since. 63.155.55.204 (talk) 07:01, 19 November 2023 (UTC)

SOurce? Slatersteven (talk) 10:54, 19 November 2023 (UTC)

Statehood

Is there any scholarly consensus as to whether SoP actually qualifies as a state? The most recent academic treatise I could find weighing the issue concludes that "It is a subject of controversy as to whether the State of Palestine [can] be considered a State in accordance with classical international law definitions." Another somewhat recent book from OUP summarizes that "while Palestine enjoys some of the attributes of statehood, primarily international recognition, it would be wrong to classify Palestine as a state". In light of this it seems untenable to have the first sentence of our article simply assert statehood. – St.nerol (talk) 08:12, 9 October 2023 (UTC)

See here. Consensus is that Palestine is a state. Selfstudier (talk) 17:41, 10 October 2023 (UTC)

The current entity sometimes called Palestine is simply not a State by any internationally agreed convention, and its status (as well as the status of the associated territories) is a subject of great contention. From the juridical perspective of the United States & Europe-- who happen to count quite a bit more than others in terms not least of power--, whatever it is, it is not a State. Labeling the entity as "Palestine" much less a state is not neutral, rather advocates a point of view and political position/aspiration. As well, it leads to a variety of confusions, including that this imagined entity is historically or otherwise equivalent to other historical, cultural or political entities such as Mandate Palestine.

See the two reference materials below. KenThomas (talk) 01:58, 11 October 2023 (UTC)

I saw them when they were posted, if I recall they were also considered in the discussion I linked above. Selfstudier (talk) 10:55, 11 October 2023 (UTC)

As far as I understand, there was an RfC about whether or not to include the qualifier de jure and as there was no consensus, the qualifier was removed. The word "state" itself was not the focal point of the discussion, but still the closing comment claimed consensus about this. I cannot find such a consensus when reading the discussion. I think we agree that a community consensus should be built upon an academic consensus. But where is the consensus, any consensus, about the status of Palestine? –St.nerol (talk) 11:52, 11 October 2023 (UTC)

Legal status of the State of Palestine is linked in the article, in case you missed it. Selfstudier (talk) 11:57, 11 October 2023 (UTC)

Let me suggest two possible solutions:

1. Simply remove "a state" from the lead sentence. The article would begin Palestine, officially the State of Palestine, is located in the Southern Levant region of West Asia. The purpose of statehood is clear from the official name, but wikivoice does not judge whether or not this purpose has been fulfilled.
2. Change "state" to a broader term, like "political entity". The Wikipedia page redirects to "polity", which overlaps with "state" but without implying that some particular set of conditions have been met.

– St.nerol (talk) 13:01, 11 October 2023 (UTC)

No solution is needed because there isn't a problem. There is an established consensus which you are welcome to try and change. Selfstudier (talk) 13:07, 11 October 2023 (UTC)

You have not demonstrated any consensus on the matter, neither on Wikipedia nor in academia. What we have is a an unsourced claim which several reliable sources say is either false or disputed. How could we let that be? –St.nerol (talk) 06:48, 12 October 2023 (UTC)

• Khaled Elgindy, director of the program on Palestine and Palestinian-Israeli affairs at the Middle East Institute: "The two-state solution is off the table. [...] Have they gotten the state? No, they haven't."

  So is Israel not a state? Slatersteven (talk) 14:34, 13 October 2023 (UTC)

Read the well cited https://iccforum.com/media/background/gaza/2009-05-19_Quigley_Memo_on_Palestine_Declaration.pdf written before the UN upgrade to observer state at the UN and the subsequent detailed review of the question as part of the decision to allow an ICC investigation, overruling US, Israel and some others arguing that that the ICC does not possess territorial jurisdiction because Palestine cannot be considered a state. Selfstudier (talk) 14:43, 13 October 2023 (UTC)

Yes! This is reasonable, scholarly and argues principially that Palestine is, not should be, but is, a state. Other sources argue otherwise; but at least, finally, a case for statehood! One objection: Written in early 2009, the document is already a bit old. It seems apparent that a lot of faith has been lost in the two-state solution since fifteen years ago. –St.nerol (talk) 20:47, 19 October 2023 (UTC)

• Per Jönsson, former analytic at the Swedish Institute of International Affairs and Middle Eastern correspondent called the idea of the West Bank and Gaza constituting a sovereign Palestinian state "a once so promising but now capsized Camp David concept" (own translation from Swedish). –St.nerol (talk) 14:53, 26 October 2023 (UTC)

• Not signed. In any event, not particularly notable plus Sweden has granted full diplomatic recognition, Sweden thinks it is a state.Selfstudier (talk) 10:47, 26 October 2023 (UTC)

Signature added. "Sweden thinks"... you mean the Swedish government, which is relevant since I cited an expert from Sweden? But since you bring it up: "The Swedish government considers the decision on October 30, 2014 to recognize Palestine to be unfortunate." (Swedish Minister for Foreign Affairs, Tobias Billström, translation my own). –St.nerol (talk) 14:53, 26 October 2023 (UTC)

The new government, just demonstrates that these decisions are as much political as anything else. Politicians come and go. Selfstudier (talk) 19:14, 13 November 2023 (UTC)

Exactly! That's why I'd like us to rely not upon what governments think, but what academic sources say, to establish whether or not Palestine has achieved statehood. –St.nerol (talk) 09:53, 14 November 2023 (UTC)

The two are interlinked in the academic theory that says recognition is the critical thing. Bosnia Herzogovina is a good example to look at. Selfstudier (talk) 13:16, 14 November 2023 (UTC)

• "the parameters of a two-state solution are well known and well rehearsed. And yet the prospects for a two-states solution are in fact fading, undermined by hardliners on both sides" – The Palestinian–Israeli Conflict, A Very Short Introduction, by Martin Bunton. Emphasis mine. –St.nerol (talk) 19:07, 13 November 2023 (UTC)

  The US and everyone else used to talk a lot about a 2 state solution but haven't done much about seeing it happen, although currently it is back in play following recent events. What they mean by that is an I/P peace agreement, not questioning whether there is a state already. Imagine there was such an agreement, who would sign it for the Palestinians? Selfstudier (talk) 19:18, 13 November 2023 (UTC)

It would be rather strange to say "the prospect of a two-states solution is fading", if one means "the prospect of peace between the two states is fading". And the context makes it clear that the author intended to discuss the existence of two states: "In the absence of a two-states solution, Israel will face two options. One scenario posits a shared homeland: a binational state [...] The alternative costs Israel its democracy." –St.nerol (talk) 10:36, 14 November 2023 (UTC)

I disagree entirely with that interpretation. Selfstudier (talk) 13:17, 14 November 2023 (UTC)

@Selfstudier: Exactly what is the interpretation that you disagree with? He says that the alternative to two states is one state: either a shared one, or an oppressive one. What is there to understand differently? –St.nerol (talk) 14:40, 20 November 2023 (UTC)

No need to further discuss this atm. Selfstudier (talk) 14:50, 20 November 2023 (UTC)

References

Inconsistency between Palestine and Taiwan

Why is Palestine, an observer to the United Nations (UN) recognized by 138 other UN member states, referred to as a "partially recognized state with a "status" parameter on its infobox over its recognition, while Taiwan, which has no representation to the UN and is recognized by 12 other UN member states, is referred to as a "country" with no "status" parameter present on its infobox over its recognition? Why the inconsistency? 175.198.165.9 (talk) 10:02, 13 October 2023 (UTC)

Because they are not the same place. Slatersteven (talk) 10:04, 13 October 2023 (UTC)

User:slatersteven, this doesn't really answer their question.. Genabab (talk) 15:46, 1 December 2023 (UTC)

Well it does, as they are not the same place, so are not treated the same. As such there is no inconsistency, as they are not the same. Slatersteven (talk) 15:55, 1 December 2023 (UTC)

@Slatersteven so what if they are not in the same geographic area? That has no bearing on the question asked? Genabab (talk) 15:22, 29 February 2024 (UTC)

I did not say they were in the same place, I said they were not the same place. Slatersteven (talk) 15:30, 29 February 2024 (UTC)

They are in completely different situations, and the UN is not known to be consistent. Butterdiplomat (talk) 15:48, 29 February 2024 (UTC)

Why are we reopening a discussion that was resolved months ago? Selfstudier (talk) 15:53, 29 February 2024 (UTC)

No idea, but I was pinged. Slatersteven (talk) 16:11, 29 February 2024 (UTC)

Was not trying to re-open the discussion, I simply did not understand what @Slatersteven was saying. @Butterdiplomat put it in a better way Genabab (talk) 17:13, 29 February 2024 (UTC)

I'm not sure if you are saying this article is wrong or Taiwan's is wrong, but Taiwan does not call itself a state(if it did that would likely trigger war with the PRC). 331dot (talk) 15:53, 1 December 2023 (UTC)

My interpretation is that they're saying Palestine should be called a country? I'm not sure why they aren't Genabab (talk) 19:17, 1 December 2023 (UTC)

Well lets see, No control, over their own boarders,... is that a good start? Slatersteven (talk) 19:20, 1 December 2023 (UTC)

Why would it be? Genabab (talk) 19:21, 1 December 2023 (UTC)

Because it is one area of difference, want another, an internationally recognized capital, want another? Slatersteven (talk) 19:35, 1 December 2023 (UTC)

An area of difference in what?

Taiwan doesn't even have recognition to begin with, yet it is called a country.. Genabab (talk) 20:09, 1 December 2023 (UTC)

The RC used to have a seat on the UN. Slatersteven (talk) 20:26, 1 December 2023 (UTC)

And so? What is the defenition of country being used that disallows Palestine to be one? Genabab (talk) 16:46, 2 December 2023 (UTC)

RS saying it is (or was) one? Slatersteven (talk) 16:49, 2 December 2023 (UTC)

Rs meaning? And if they're saying it is one then doesn't that add a reason to treat it as one? Genabab (talk) 17:33, 2 December 2023 (UTC)

wp:rs, reliable sources. And no, we go by what RS say, about what they are talking about, anything else is wp:synthesis. Slatersteven (talk) 17:39, 2 December 2023 (UTC)

Didn't you just say that some group of reliable sources said it was a country?

It is certainly suggestive of signficant bias to say that Taiwan is a country (it is), that Kosovo is (it is). But Palestine isn't? Genabab (talk) 18:53, 2 December 2023 (UTC)

signficant bias Get used to it. It's a state, that will do ftb. Selfstudier (talk) 19:07, 2 December 2023 (UTC)

That certainly sounds counter to what Wikipedia is Genabab (talk) 09:47, 3 December 2023 (UTC)

WP cannot deal with systemic bias, can only go by sources. If we want to call Palestine a country then we need a bunch of reliable sources that do that. Theoretically state and country are the same thing, however, it seems to me that it is better to be recognized as a state within the UN system. Selfstudier (talk) 11:41, 3 December 2023 (UTC)

Didnt I just say what? What do you think I just said? Slatersteven (talk) 11:43, 3 December 2023 (UTC)

List of states with limited recognition Selfstudier (talk) 16:59, 2 December 2023 (UTC)

Taiwan is a de facto state fully self governing and controlling. Palestine is restricted to a few besieged island cities while the rest of their claimed territory is under full Israeli military control that the Palestinians have been enduring for 5 decades The Great Mule of Eupatoria (talk) 17:43, 14 January 2024 (UTC)

Neither of which the US recognize as states. The comparison is not a valid one to make as the circumstances are quite different. Selfstudier (talk) 17:47, 14 January 2024 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 9 March 2024

106.71.7.135 (talk) 03:31, 9 March 2024 (UTC)

Instead of state of Palestine, it is Country

 Not done: That is the official name. In this case, 'state' is effectively a synonym for 'country' (see State (polity)), and does not refer to a region within a country. Tollens (talk) 03:54, 9 March 2024 (UTC)

Vandalism/personal views (Education section)

Someone remove the edit by DavidRoth. It contains personal political views, is not backed up by any sources, and labels people as terrorists. This is vandalism and is not welcome here. XenonDelta (talk) 22:09, 27 November 2023 (UTC)

I've removed the material per WP:UNDUE. I hope you don't mind that I amended the heading for this discussion to make it more clear what we're talking about. OhNoitsJamie ^Talk 22:21, 27 November 2023 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 11 December 2023

The “all claimed territory is occupied by Israel” isn’t correct. 49.3.77.247 (talk) 01:40, 11 December 2023 (UTC)

Disabling template, it is intended for an explicit change request rather than a more general request for change. CMD (talk) 02:36, 11 December 2023 (UTC)

"Palestine is a state"

Why doesn't it say "palestine is a country", it says "Israel is a country" on "israel". Alexander Shipfield (talk) 01:16, 12 March 2024 (UTC)WP:ARBECR, non ECR editors may only make edit requests

I don't know the answer to that question, nor do I have a firm grasp on the meaning of the word "country" to be honest, or how editors go about deciding when to include it in an article (in cases which some people might regard as edge cases, other than perhaps based on a large number of reliable sources using the word when they talk about the entity). What I do know is that a) Palestine is a state, b) ISO treats Palestine as a country called the State of Palestine (see here) and c) WP:ARBECR applies to this article and you are not extended confirmed, so technically you are limited to making edit requests as described in WP:MAKINGEREQ. If you have sources referring to Palestine as a country you can make your case in an edit request. Sean.hoyland (talk) 05:17, 12 March 2024 (UTC)

Palestine is a country. If you look on certain lists such as List of tallest buildings by country and all, then you will also find Palestine. So yes, it is a country. A partially recognized/disputed/de jure country Kharbaan Ghaltaan (talk) 10:08, 12 March 2024 (UTC)

)What is Wiki’s policy concerning calling a “location” a state? For clarification and to stay up to date with the current situation.)

Due to International law, one requirement of “Statehood” is the ability to “enter into relations” with other States. However, the current conflict (a non-existent functioning legitimate civilian government) and failure/lack of any functioning government by the current “Palestinian” regime has left the population without that capability.

Until, such a time as a civilian administration/government can be established. Thus, allowing a functioning and effective “relations” to occur between the civilian population and their elected representation with the International community. P

erhaps at least a “*” could be placed to a link for additional information?

Especially for (students) those seeking legitimate answers “The Truth!”

“Censorship is to art as lynching is to justice.”

Henry Louis Gates Jr.

Sidebar:

Everything must be kept current and maintained correctly. Lest the book burners be victorious.

No matter the emotional, political, social, cultural, religious beliefs or pressures. Information integrity and accountability is vital. I respect this project and all the contributions of every member, editor, team member and community member.

::Please comment your thoughts. This is my first post here as I enjoy writing and editing for various projects and have discovered this community just recently. Blackhawk Crewchief (talk) 13:42, 22 March 2024 (UTC) WP:ARBECR

That Gaza and Palestine are not synonymous, one is part of the other, but not the totality of the other. So we go by what RS say, there are plenty of sources that call it a state. Slatersteven (talk) 13:46, 22 March 2024 (UTC)

Best not to respond to non ECR editors, who may only make edit requests per WP:ARBECR (can also just remove, citing same policy, since there are replies, I have just struck the comment).Selfstudier (talk) 13:57, 22 March 2024 (UTC) Going to archive this since it is going nowhere and only new comment is an ARBECR vio,Selfstudier (talk) 13:57, 22 March 2024 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 11 December 2023 (2)

. In the Etymology section, change "General use of the term 'Palestine' or related terms to the area at the southeast corner..." to "General use of the term 'Palestine' or related terms to an area at the southeast corner..."

The definite article suggests a wider meaning that originally given to the term, which gained terrritory only during the Roman Empirial period. 24.193.29.184 (talk) 05:01, 11 December 2023 (UTC)

"The definite article suggests a wider meaning that originally given to the term, which gained territory only during the Roman Empirial period Not sure what the issue is here, what is the difference, in terms of geography, between "the" and "an" in this context? Is there an explanatory source? Selfstudier (talk) 12:45, 11 December 2023 (UTC)

 Not done: until a better explanation is provided. M.Bitton (talk) 13:20, 13 December 2023 (UTC)

Canan

the history should be corrected to include Canaan, Palestine dating back to when Jesus was born. The histt starting in 1947 is soo deliberately misleading.. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:410:8181:5200:152a:9edf:ac2e:7111 (talk) 11:36, 25 December 2023 (UTC)

THis is about the satte of Palestine, not the region. Slatersteven (talk) 12:12, 25 December 2023 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 8 April 2024

Please link the United Nations in the second sentence of the article (in the lead). The result (just not in green) would be: It is officially recognized as a state by the United Nations and numerous countries. DirtySocks357(WreckItRalph) (talk) 03:01, 9 April 2024 (UTC)

 Done '''[[User:CanonNi]]''' (talk|contribs) 03:10, 9 April 2024 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 9 April 2024

In the 4th paragraph of the article (the lead), please remove the following sentence: The state strives to build and strengthen its institutions, promote economic development, and improve the well-being of its citizens. The reason is: Per common sense, just about every state/country has this aim, Palestine is not an exclusive to this. The sentence has a tone of Palestinian support, kind of. DirtySocks357(WreckItRalph) (talk) 13:43, 9 April 2024 (UTC)

Done. The sentence has a tone of Palestinian support, kind of Unsourced commentary is not required for an edit request. Selfstudier (talk) 13:51, 9 April 2024 (UTC)

I understand, thank you! DirtySocks357(WreckItRalph) (talk) 14:09, 9 April 2024 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 13 April 2024

2001:4DF7:2:CAD4:1CF6:9220:3E6D:D538 (talk) 13:07, 13 April 2024 (UTC)

I dont see you mantioned about hamas and terror organization by this flag

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. '''[[User:CanonNi]]''' (talk|contribs) 13:12, 13 April 2024 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 27 December 2023

English translation of the name of the Palestinian Anthem is stated in Wikipedia as “Fedayeen Warrior”. However, after listening to the anthem and reading the lyrics it is important what context the word is used in, as it results in significantly different meaning. In the context of the anthem, “fida’i” is composed of “fida”, meaning “sacrifice” and the personal possessive suffix “-i”. Therefore an accurate translation of the name of the Palestinian National Anthem is “My Sacrifice”. I implore the moderators make the change and correct the mistake as the translation listed in the page are simply inaccurate and may lead to gross misunderstandings on what Palestine is and what its anthem is meant to evoke. 188.71.226.199 (talk) 10:35, 27 December 2023 (UTC)

This is wp:or, please cite a source. Slatersteven (talk) 14:02, 27 December 2023 (UTC)

 Not done per Slatersteven. Seawolf35 ^T--C 19:42, 27 December 2023 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 16 January 2024

- "Invaded by arabs", might be useful to mention that before that happened 250,000 Palestinians were already expelled with notable massacres like Deir Yassan. The phrasing is slanted and doesn't represent the Palestinian side, which is best put as the word "Nakba".

- Rearrange to mention oslo earlier, as it is most relevant to the make-up of Palestine

- I think saying "hamas seized power" is fine, but you should mention the attempted coup that their seizure was in response to. There's just a trend of only showing Israeli side of events and omitting key events.

-Hamas should never be mentioned before oslo as well, otherwise this article is just in service of "news" rather than historical continuity Mohammed Al-Keesh (talk) 02:47, 16 January 2024 (UTC)

Not done, edit request(s) must be of the form "please change X to Y". ("Invaded by arabs" is not in the article for example). Selfstudier (talk) 13:09, 16 January 2024 (UTC)

Undo the revert of Dovidroth

@Dovidroth has reverted my changes. I suggest we undo the revert.

It might be worth noting that Dovidroth has been banned from the Palestine/Israel Conflict topic for 90 days: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Dovidroth#Notice_that_you_are_now_subject_to_an_arbitration_enforcement_sanction

My changes can be summarized as:

1. Clarify that Gaza is still under occupation.
2. Clarify that the blockade is supported by Egypt and not an independent blockade led by Egypt.
3. Clarify that the *native* Arab population rejected partition, and not, for example, the Arab Jewish population who had emigrated from Iraq.
4. Clarify the widely accepted motivation behind the rejection of the partition plan.

I suggest we reincorporate my changes. DMH43 (talk) 20:58, 2 January 2024 (UTC)

Firstly (personal opinion obviously), as one of the three users who received topic bans just received a reduction in their topic ban, some temperance here may be recommended as appeals are still active, and the teeth are rather loose in the gum.

That said, it's up to you - I'd like it if you outline your proposed reverts below just so the rest of us can have clarity on what you're looking to restore. Mistamystery (talk) 21:44, 2 January 2024 (UTC)

Thanks @Mistamystery, I had given a breakdown of the changes above, should I provide direct quotes instead? Users can see the revert (which I am proposing to undo) directly in the link I provided. The page hasn't changed since the revert, so the diff is still up to date. DMH43 (talk) 23:24, 2 January 2024 (UTC)

Proposed change 1:

The Gaza Strip was governed by Egypt but conquered by Israel in 1967. Israel governed the region until it withdrew in 2005. Hamas seized power after winning the 2006 Palestinian legislative election. The Gaza Strip has since been blockaded by Israel and Egypt.

to:

The Gaza Strip was governed by Egypt but conquered by Israel in 1967. Israel governed the region until it withdrew in 2005; although it is still considered to occupy Gaza. Hamas seized power after winning the 2006 Palestinian legislative election. The Gaza Strip has since been blockaded by Israel with support from Egypt.

DMH43 (talk) 18:50, 6 January 2024 (UTC)

Proposed change 2:

This Partition Plan was accepted by the Jews but rejected by the Arabs.

to:

This Partition Plan was accepted by the Jews but rejected by the native Arab population on the basis that in addition to the Arabs forming a two-thirds majority, they owned a majority of the lands.

DMH43 (talk) 18:50, 6 January 2024 (UTC)

I just left the link to the partition plan for the details around it as it is not directly relevant to SoP. Selfstudier (talk) 15:52, 23 January 2024 (UTC)

References

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 9 March 2024

I want to edit this one because I want to change it to the Palestinian one. It would improve better if I did it AnnoyinAyman (talk) 07:13, 10 March 2024 (UTC)

 Not done: this is not the right page to request additional user rights. You may reopen this request with the specific changes to be made and someone may add them for you. Jamedeus (talk) 07:41, 10 March 2024 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 10 March 2024

The last part of the beginning of the page (the text which says "the Palestinian government collapsed") links to Palestinian National Authority, specifically to the part "#2024_government_collapse". Although due to a recent edit, that part of the page no longer exists, since it has been renamed. It should now link to the "#2024_mass_resignation" part. SewSown (talk) 23:29, 10 March 2024 (UTC)

 Done Jamedeus (talk) 06:49, 11 March 2024 (UTC)

Requested move 5 March 2024

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: not moved. – robertsky (talk) 14:04, 12 March 2024 (UTC)

---

State of Palestine → Palestine (state) – The vast majority of country titles aren't named like "State of X" but rather just "X". In Palestine's case, it should also have the parenthetical "(state)" to disambiguate with Palestine (region). JDiala (talk) 16:08, 5 March 2024 (UTC)

Most places are not in Palestines position. Slatersteven (talk) 16:13, 5 March 2024 (UTC)

There have been previous attempts to move this to the simple 'Palestine', an idea I sympathize with. The difficulty is the alleged ambiguity, that your proposal tries to resolve and once again I have a certain amount of sympathy with the idea. I think the principal problem is that the current framing is by now commonname, for better or worse, and unlikely to change until such time as acceptance into the UN as a full member state. Selfstudier (talk) 16:20, 5 March 2024 (UTC)

ISO 3166 country name for interest. Sean.hoyland (talk) 16:22, 5 March 2024 (UTC)

• Weak oppose per WP:NATURALDAB (as per Republic of Ireland, Republic of the Congo etc. where NatDabs are preferred), although sympathetic to the cause, and there could be a case making this primary. The current is recognised as its full name, and a natural disambiguation, for the current situation where this is not primary and the region as another contender for the name. DankJae 21:40, 5 March 2024 (UTC)

  • The case of Ireland and Congo — Ireland is a region, where both Northern Ireland and Republic of Ireland stands as different countries or states. Same is in case of Congo, where both Democratic Republic of the Congo and Republic of the Congo are separate country. But in case of Palestine. As a country it is only "State of Palestine". No other part of Palestine region is considered as another country. In the region of Palestine, only one country of its name stands, which is State of Palestine.
  • The redirected name should be just Palestine and its disambiguation page should be Palestine (disambiguation). This is better I think

  Kharbaan Ghaltaan (talk) 12:01, 6 March 2024 (UTC)

Oppose Current title is clearly more natural. I honestly just think we should do what Arabic Wikipedia does and have one article titled State of Palestine for the entity, and one article titled Palestine for the region. HadesTTW (he/him • talk) 22:18, 6 March 2024 (UTC)

Oppose, per common name. It is similar to the proposal to move Land of Israel to Israel (region). Better to use WP:NATURALDAB. --Yorkporter (talk) 23:16, 8 March 2024 (UTC)

Oppose per DankJae, plus, State of Palestine is the title often used politically, and this title works anyhow so I don't see much reason to move TappyTurtle [talk | contribs] 03:27, 12 March 2024 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

State of Palestine vs Palestinian Occupied Territories Palestinian_National_Authority

Just want to make sure that there is awareness of the existence of two Wikipedia articles that seem to refer to the same entity. Each says they are different than the other, yet shows the same national flag and coat of arms. Geographically, one consists of the West Bank and Gaza, whereas the other is only the West Bank. FeralOink (talk) 17:54, 23 March 2024 (UTC)

The Gaza Strip is not controlled or occupied by Israel and from 2007 to the start of the Israeli invasion 2023, the Gaza Strip has been politically and militarily controlled entirely by Hamas. So that is why one topic (State of Palestine) is about both locations while occupied territories almost entirely focuses on the West Bank. The Weather Event Writer (Talk Page) 18:01, 23 March 2024 (UTC)

If the other article being referred to is the Palestinian National Authority then that also shows Gaza in its infobox. That apart, Gaza is considered by the international community to be occupied. The territories considered as occupied are equal to the territories claimed by the SoP. That the government of Palestine is split in two pro tem is irrelevant. Selfstudier (talk) 18:28, 23 March 2024 (UTC)

I’m assuming it’s not. Palestinian Occupied Territories redirects to Palestinian territories, so I assume the question was regarding why Palestinian territories and State of Palestine are two different articles. The Weather Event Writer (Talk Page) 18:33, 23 March 2024 (UTC)

PT is also equal to OPT and SoP, territory wise. Anyway, see OP's contributions. Selfstudier (talk) 18:44, 23 March 2024 (UTC)

Selfstudier, what exactly is wrong with my contributions to Wikipedia?! You said, "Anyway, see OP's contributions." I am OP. I am editing in good faith. Perhaps I misunderstood, but if not, no casting aspersions like that please. I do apologize for this mess here, and if y'all want, you can just hat the entire thing or stick it in the archives for the article.--FeralOink (talk) 07:37, 26 March 2024 (UTC)

I never said there was anything wrong with your contributions and I did not cast any aspersions. I was inviting another editor to examine your contributions in order to determine which other article was being referred to. Selfstudier (talk) 08:11, 26 March 2024 (UTC)

Ooops, I meant to say Palestinian National Authority not occupied territories. That article begins with the following:

"The Palestinian National Authority, commonly known as the Palestinian Authority and officially the State of Palestine..."

That seems the same as the title of this article. If not, it needs to be edited.--FeralOink (talk) 16:50, 25 March 2024 (UTC)

If there is no problem with this article, then we can have a discussion at the PNA article, agreed? Selfstudier (talk) 17:23, 25 March 2024 (UTC)

If this is about another page, it should be discussed there, and (no) they are to the same article as far as I can tell, but there are overlaps. Slatersteven (talk) 17:24, 25 March 2024 (UTC)

Okay, I see what you mean, Steven. You're saying that it would possibly be the Palestinian National Authority article that needs to have State of Palestine deleted, not a name change to this article. That is reasonable. I will leave this page alone for now. Thank you!--FeralOink (talk) 07:37, 26 March 2024 (UTC)

A "Country"

Why does the opening sentence call Palestine a country? It's only recognized as such by 139 of the 193 UN member states. The sentence was correct for decades. Why has it now been edited incorrectly? Please undo Joséthewikier's revision. His edit description strikes me as quite goofy and biased as well, comparing Palestine to much more widely-recognized countries. Palestine is a partially recognized state in the Middle East, not a country. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_recognition_of_the_State_of_Palestine Uchiha Itachi 25 (talk) 12:16, 25 March 2024 (UTC)

See the talk page arrive for every answer as to why. Slatersteven (talk) 12:24, 25 March 2024 (UTC)

 Done Selfstudier (talk) 12:24, 25 March 2024 (UTC)

Are we going to have de to relitigate this, OK, you do not have to be recognized by the majority of countries to be called a country. Slatersteven (talk) 12:27, 25 March 2024 (UTC)

The most recent discussion, this comes up every so often, the consensus is for "state" I think, if not it should be, as that is the most common usage. Selfstudier (talk) 12:35, 25 March 2024 (UTC)

BUt as your edit summary pointed out its a distinction with out a difference, this is not the article title. Slatersteven (talk) 12:37, 25 March 2024 (UTC)

And that discussion seems too limited. Slatersteven (talk) 12:38, 25 March 2024 (UTC)

I don't actually mind personally, they are effectively the same thing, I just think the more common usage is state, for obvious reasons. Selfstudier (talk) 12:40, 25 March 2024 (UTC)

I am unsure it is, its called the state of Palestine, be this is not a name question. I think we need an RFC to establish a clear consensus. Slatersteven (talk) 12:41, 25 March 2024 (UTC)

Why? I do not object to country and neither do you, so unless someone else, preferably EC qualified, does, not a problem. Selfstudier (talk) 12:44, 25 March 2024 (UTC)

I object to it. I am making an edit request for the line to be changed to say "state." Uchiha Itachi 25 (talk) 07:38, 4 April 2024 (UTC)

Object on what grounds? As a non EC editor you can make edit requests but they need to be sourced. So not done. Selfstudier (talk) 11:33, 4 April 2024 (UTC)

Both this article and Palestinian National Authority say they refer to the State of Palestine. That is ambiguous. See my comment in the talk page section immediately preceding this for direct quote from the other WP article. I am not trying to relitigate anything or argue, just noting ambiguity of calling two different articles the same thing.--FeralOink (talk) 16:56, 25 March 2024 (UTC)

You have already done that in the previous section, has nothing to do with what is being discussed here. Selfstudier (talk) 17:06, 25 March 2024 (UTC)

We did not invest it, the Palestinians did. Slatersteven (talk) 17:18, 25 March 2024 (UTC)

Best not to respond to non EC editors and to delete their comments unless it is clearly an edit request. Selfstudier (talk) 17:25, 25 March 2024 (UTC)

Uchiha Itachi 25, Palestine is not a country because......with an argument based on reliable sources. That is a better way to do it. Does 139/193 mean it is not a country? I don't know. Why do ISO treat it as a country in the international standards? Again, I don't know. Do other reliable sources refer to it as a country. I have no idea. The article Country may help you formulate an argument that follows the guidelines WP:EDITXY guidelines which has more likelihood of success (and not being deleted because it is not a well-formed edit request by a non-extendedconfirmed user). Sean.hoyland (talk) 11:28, 4 April 2024 (UTC)

Idk what all the fuss is about tbh, could people objecting to country (or state) please specify on what basis, with reference to reliable sources. Selfstudier (talk) 11:35, 4 April 2024 (UTC)

It is a bit confusing. Does Uchiha Itachi 25 object to Wikipedia referring to Taiwan as a country (rather than a province of the PRC) or is it Palestine specifically? What is a country anyway? I have no idea. Sean.hoyland (talk) 11:40, 4 April 2024 (UTC)

As a non EC editor, they may file sourced edit requests and they will be considered, until then, nothing really to discuss. Selfstudier (talk) 11:54, 4 April 2024 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 11 April 2024

Palestine is bordered by Israel to the north and west, not to the north and east as stated. ASpoor (talk) 10:19, 11 April 2024 (UTC)

You are correct, fixed. Slatersteven (talk) 10:24, 11 April 2024 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 18 April 2024

I've found a misspelling in the section "Oil and gas": beleived -> believed AX29 (talk) 19:05, 18 April 2024 (UTC)

 Done Jamedeus (talk) 20:00, 18 April 2024 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 21 April 2024

I've found a typo in the section "Roman Empire". In the second paragraph and third sentence, he -> The PokemasterRav (talk) 11:34, 21 April 2024 (UTC)

Fixed. Slatersteven (talk) 11:37, 21 April 2024 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 22 April 2024

In the very last sentence of the lead (paragraph 4), please revise the following sentence from: It is one of the most educated countries the Arab world and the Middle East and hold massive reserves of oil and gas.

to: It is one of the most educated countries in the Arab world and the Middle East, with massive reserves of oil and gas. …or at least something similar, thanks! DS537(WIR) 14:13, 22 April 2024 (UTC)

 Done Jamedeus (talk) 17:49, 22 April 2024 (UTC)

Copy editing/maintenance needed

In this edit from earlier this month and others, @Kharbaan Ghaltaan rewrote (without edit summary) much of the lead, introducing imprecise/unencyclopedic purple prose like Palestine's ancient history spans thousands of years, with its crossroads location witnessing the rise and fall of empires, shaping world history and removing some of the language that discussed Palestine's limited recognition/control over its territory. It appears that this article is surprisingly poorly monitored and that many of the deleterious contributions have not been reverted or fixed up. Could some more experienced editors review the edit history and make changes as needed? Sdkb ^talk 18:22, 22 April 2024 (UTC)

Notified: WT:ISRAEL, WT:PALESTINE. Sdkb ^talk 18:23, 22 April 2024 (UTC)

Would agree with reversion there, a couple of changes I'd agree with but overall very flowery language. CMD (talk) 01:22, 23 April 2024 (UTC)

Redundancy in lead of the article.

There may be some redundancy in the first paragraph of the lead of the article. The lead currently mentions that Jerusalem is the proclaimed capital twice with only one sentence in between. This feels redundant, and, if others agree, someone should remove either the first mention or the second mention (I suggest the first, because the sentence where the second one is mentioned is more related to geography, however, I don't particularly mind). Thank you in advance, and have a nice day! 90.139.2.187 (talk) 18:59, 29 April 2024 (UTC)

Done. Selfstudier (talk) 19:04, 29 April 2024 (UTC)

Requested move 18 April 2024

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: not moved. (closed by non-admin page mover) Vpab15 (talk) 21:37, 29 April 2024 (UTC)

---

• State of Palestine → Palestine
• Palestine → Palestine (disambiguation)

– Per WP:COMMONNAME and the upcoming UNSC vote on Friday to have Palestine upgraded as a UN member, I suggest this article be renamed to simply "Palestine" like all other country articles in this Wikipedia. It doesn't make sense to use Ireland as the Republic of Ireland or the Republic of China as two articles with one on the mainland and the other on Taiwan. Even the Google Trends uses Palestine more than the State of Palestine itself. Kindly keep this debate civil. Silence of Lambs (talk) 00:03, 18 April 2024 (UTC)

What impact would UN recognition have on the name of the article? Remsense诉 00:40, 18 April 2024 (UTC)

• Citing WP:COMMONNAME makes no sense here. The page is at a WP:NATDIS of "Palestine". A move request would have to address WP:PRIMARYTOPIC, not COMMONNAME. Further, the country Ireland is at Republic of Ireland, and the country Republic of China is at Taiwan, so I don't understand those analogies. CMD (talk) 01:00, 18 April 2024 (UTC)
• Leaning oppose. The title has long been a disambiguation page because there are various regions with differing borders that have been called "Palestine" historically, and moving this article to that title would appear to denigrate the significance of all previous forms. BD2412 T 01:11, 18 April 2024 (UTC)
• Oppose While I am sympathetic to the idea, this has been discussed formally several times before and informally as well. Palestine is presently a disambiguation and the background to that is all the reasons why this move never succeeds. I would be willing to look at this favorably if SoP is accepted as a UN member state, as that would lead to substantive changes across wiki and not necessarily just here. Selfstudier (talk) 10:27, 18 April 2024 (UTC)

  As I write, the US has vetoed the resolution in a 12, 2, 1 vote. Selfstudier (talk) 23:15, 18 April 2024 (UTC)

• Support Given that we call Palestine a country, I cannot see why we would not title it as we do other countries. Are there other countries with a "Republic of..." page? DenverCoder19 (talk) 04:16, 19 April 2024 (UTC)

  If you read anything above, you would've seen Republic of Ireland cited as an example, yes. Remsense诉 04:31, 19 April 2024 (UTC)

  See also both Congos. CMD (talk) 05:07, 19 April 2024 (UTC)

  Support There are two Ireland — the Republic of Ireland and Northern Ireland in the Ireland region. In the case of Palestinian region, only one country with that exists, which is the State of Palestine. So yes I guess it should changed to Palestine. Also, people commonly used to call it by the name Palestine. Not the State of Palestine Kharbaan Ghaltaan (talk) 06:33, 19 April 2024 (UTC)

  Again, it's not a question of WP:COMMONNAME, but WP:PRIMARYTOPIC. In other words: when people say "Palestine", are they usually referring to the region, or the specific government? Remsense诉 06:43, 19 April 2024 (UTC)

  It refers to Palestine the country, which is of Palestinians, the Arabs. People don't have much specific knowledge that Palestine is also the name of a geographic region. Kharbaan Ghaltaan (talk) 07:05, 19 April 2024 (UTC)

• Oppose – unless WP:PRIMARYTOPIC is demonstrated, per reply above. Remsense诉 06:45, 19 April 2024 (UTC)

  Support What if we moved the title to Palestine (country), or moving disambiguation link to Palestine (disambiguation) Kharbaan Ghaltaan (talk) 07:04, 19 April 2024 (UTC)

  Generally, we want to avoid parenthetical disambiguators whenever possible: "State of Palestine" is much preferable than Palestine (state) etc. Remsense诉 07:26, 19 April 2024 (UTC)

Weak oppose per WP:NOPRIMARY and WP:NATDIS. With a bit of WP:RECENTISM, sure the State of Palestine is the primary topic. But the wider region of Palestine has been known by that name for centuries, so my concern is with long-term significance of the state versus that of the wider region. estar8806 (talk) ★ 11:48, 19 April 2024 (UTC)

• Oppose as we had one of these recently did we not, and nothing new has, been brought forward. Many places have multiple pages on differing aspects UK britain British Isle We need to differentiate between the region and the state. Slatersteven (talk)
• Oppose We do have a precedent, since Ireland refers to the island and not the southern state. The administration in Ramallah is a rather shaky regime which does not even have de facto control of the whole of the West Bank. Recognition by the UN doesn't alter this. Many people will continue to consider that the term refers to the whole country or region. PatGallacher (talk) 15:04, 19 April 2024 (UTC)

  It's not "recognition by the UN", the UN does not recognize states, it admits recognized states as member states under certain rules. Selfstudier (talk) 17:07, 20 April 2024 (UTC)

• Oppose – It would sacrifice accuracy between historical Palestine and the current state. Svartner (talk) 17:58, 19 April 2024 (UTC)
• Support pretty sure the primary topic is the country, and that people don't say Palestine thinking about Tel Aviv. At least in English. Super Ψ Dro 11:53, 23 April 2024 (UTC)
• Oppose. The historic region is just as significant as the modern state. -- Necrothesp (talk) 13:20, 23 April 2024 (UTC)

Weak oppose: I think if anything, the title "Palestine" should direct straight to Palestine (region), as this is, to me, the obvious common usage. I do not think people input the term "Palestine" hoping to read solely about the nominal authority of the PA within the 1967 borders; I suspect more are interested in historic Palestine. However, these two meanings are certainly overwhelmingly predominant and I think the base term should indeed direct to one of them, while directing misdirected users to both the other and the disambiguation page in the hatnotes. The current state of affairs, having the base name go to neither the state nor the region, but instead the overly complex disambiguation page, does not serve readers well. Iskandar323 (talk) 14:23, 28 April 2024 (UTC)

My assessment appears to be largely confirmed by Wikinav. Iskandar323 (talk) 14:25, 28 April 2024 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Dubious and poorly referenced sentence fragment in Wikipedia's "State of Palestine"

[Please note that this comment is unrelated to the violence and conflict re Israel and Gaza that is happening now.] Under the heading "Early Religious"(sic) is a sentence beginning: "Jesus performed miracles, ..." referenced to item 39. I am upset that Wikipedia did not correct this statement, which was published as factual. "Jesus performed miracles, ..." is not factual, it is an item of traditional Christian doctrine. Rularue (talk) 01:33, 30 April 2024 (UTC)

I've tried to address this with this edit. Sean.hoyland (talk) 02:40, 30 April 2024 (UTC)

International recognition by UN members

Trinidad and Tobago recognized the State of Palestine on 2 May 2024.

The number of UN members that recognize the State of Palestine needs to be updated to 141. Surfacedextrous (talk) 06:16, 5 May 2024 (UTC)

Some debate going on about what the exact number is right now, at Talk:Foreign_relations of the State of Palestine#140 and at Talk:International recognition of the State of Palestine, suggest the discussion take place only at the latter article until resolved. Selfstudier (talk) 09:41, 5 May 2024 (UTC)

Correcting sentence in lead

In the lead, it says "It is officially recognized as a state by the United Nations and numerous countries." I understand this last bit is imprecise, as "numerous" may mean 20 or 30, while the real number is significant: 140 of 193 UN members, meaning 72.5%; for that, I would suggest correcting the bit "and numerous countries" to "and by the vast majority of the world's countries". 2A02:14F:177:44BB:A5D4:927E:38DF:5A18 (talk) 12:03, 30 April 2024 (UTC)

Done. Selfstudier (talk) 12:38, 30 April 2024 (UTC)

I'd like to follow on that. It's materially incorrect to talk about "recognition as a state by the UN", since the UN has no power to determine sovereignty. We've been having similar discussions with regard to certain partially recognised states aligned with Russia, and the editors' consensus there seemed to follow the academic consensus within the framework of the constitutive theory: Westphalian sovereignty is defined only through recognition by other states, as every state has a sovereign right to recognise and treat another polity as its equal.

For this reason, Wikipedia talks about "states with limited recognition", i.e., those whose sovereignty has not been recognised by a majority of other states.

However, the UN, being essentially an intergovernmental association, has no accepted powers to determine the Westphalian sovereignty of any polity. The most the UN can do is to allow or disallow its membership.

My recommendation is to rework the lead section so that UN membership is not presented as linked to sovereignty. — kashmīrī ^TALK 13:27, 2 May 2024 (UTC)

I am not personally bothered by the wording here, quite happy to let the legal eagles argue the toss about it. However it is worth mentioning that 2011 vote is actually considered a de facto (not de jure) recognition which has had an impact on the question of Palestinian statehood in international law, for example, the ICC took it into account in deciding that Palestine was as a "state party", allowed to bring a case there.

These days, the consensus is not so much either the constitutive or the declarative but some more practical realization of both. Certainly the US sees the Palestinian membership debate at the UN as being directly linked to statehood, although that is probably a political position rather than anything else.

Another go round shortly :) Selfstudier (talk) 13:17, 7 May 2024 (UTC)

2011 vote is actually considered a de facto (not de jure) recognition. This might have been the case for some Western European or American countries, I don't know. Much of the remaining world has been having diplomatic relations with Palestine for a decade or two, with Palestnian embassies operating in many of the world's capitals and Palestinian ambassadors being normal members of the diplomatic corps. — kashmīrī ^TALK 13:29, 7 May 2024 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 10 May 2024

In the first one or two paragraphs there is a grammatical error, with the article saying “it have a combined area” instead of “it has”, the latter being correct. MrGamerMooseBTW (talk) 12:54, 10 May 2024 (UTC)

 Done — kashmīrī ^TALK 14:05, 10 May 2024 (UTC)

Just for one of two grammar mistakes you can't change whole section Kharbaan Ghaltaan (talk) 15:33, 10 May 2024 (UTC)

Introdution fourth paragraph. Edits needed

"The Palestinian Authority governs parts of the West Bank while Hamas controls the Gaza Strip. Currently the country is challenging from expansion of Israeli settlements in the occupied territories, impact of occupation, settler violence, blockade by Israel, restrictions on movement and ongoing security concerns. Current effort is advancing the Palestinian cause and achieving a just and lasting resolution to the conflict."

The second sentence is not in proper engligh. The third sentence is both subjective and flat out wrong. Personally I would change it to 'unsuccessful efforts have been made to solve the conflict' then bang on a source. Firestar47 (talk) 08:29, 11 May 2024 (UTC)

 Done, thanks. — kashmīrī ^TALK 00:00, 12 May 2024 (UTC)

Strange Sentence in History Section

Under the "History" section, there is a sentence which does not appear to make much sense. It reads:

"Abdul Hamid, the last Khalifa of the world, oppose Zionist movement, but failed." My problems with this sentence are twofold: Firstly, it is not grammatically correct, as it should read "Abdul Hamid, the last Khalifa of the world, opposed Zionist movement, but failed." Secondly, it does not convey much encyclopedic information. How did he "oppose Zionist movement"? This is not elaborated upon in the text to my knowledge. Why does the article refer to Abdul Hamid as "the last Khalifa of the world"? This title is not used in Hamid's main article, and it appears to be invented by whoever wrote it.

Can this sentence be excised or altered to be more encyclopedic? Thanks. JohnR1Roberts (talk) 14:09, 13 May 2024 (UTC)

 Done. @JohnR1Roberts, is it more acceptable now? — kashmīrī ^TALK 16:26, 13 May 2024 (UTC)

I like the new wording. JohnR1Roberts (talk) 16:37, 13 May 2024 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 21 May 2024

Please change the first sentence from: "Palestine (Arabic: فلسطين, romanized: Filasṭīn), officially the State of Palestine (دولة فلسطين, Dawlat Filasṭīn), is a country in the southern Levant region of West Asia."

"To:

"Palestine (Arabic: فلسطين, romanized: Filasṭīn), officially the State of Palestine (دولة فلسطين, Dawlat Filasṭīn), is a territory in the southern Levant region of West Asia."

This change aims to reflect a more neutral stance by describing Palestine as a territory, acknowledging the disputed nature of its status.

Sources:

United Nations General Assembly Resolution A/RES/67/19U.S.

Department of State - Country Profiles

European Union - External Action Service, "EU Relations with Palestine" ヘンドリックス (talk) 20:10, 21 May 2024 (UTC)

Not done. Has been discussed more than once. The clue is in the name "State of...Selfstudier (talk) 21:09, 21 May 2024 (UTC)

Incorrect Historical Representation of Palestine

Mistake: “The region of Palestine has played an important part in world history… Judaism traces its origins back to historic Palestine during biblical times.”

Correction: “The region historically known today as Palestine has played an important part in world history. In ancient times, this area was known by various names depending on the ruling empire, including Canaan, Israel, Judah, and later Judea. The term ‘Palestine’ itself was more broadly applied by the Greeks and Romans.” 2603:9008:1607:E4FD:6848:D6C:3FC0:6598 (talk) 13:09, 26 May 2024 (UTC)

We do to need to list every name in this sentence. I also note you left out Philistine and Pelesheth. Slatersteven (talk) 13:13, 26 May 2024 (UTC)

Misleading sentence with inappropriate, non-sequitur citation

In Early History, the sentence “The Israelites, Abraham's descendants, settled in Canaan, which later became known as Palestine.” is misleading because there are thousands of years between Canaan and the use of the term “Palestine”.

A more correct option for a rewrite would be The Israelites, Abraham's descendants, settled in Canaan, which eventually became known as Palestine and Israel.

The citation has nothing to do with any of this and must be removed. Citation 28 links to an illustrated children’s version of the Mormon re-telling of the Hebrew Bible. This is an inappropriate link because the Mormon religion is never mentioned in the article, and because the term “Palestine” never appears in the linked page. Instead, the linked source claims that the land of Canaan came to be known as the land of Israel or the land of Judah. 2601:80:8600:EFA0:897D:F00F:62A0:7682 (talk) 17:32, 26 May 2024 (UTC)

Removed unreliable source and replaced with cn tag. Selfstudier (talk) 17:50, 26 May 2024 (UTC)

Multiple citation numbers for the same source

References 45 and 46 are identical 2601:80:8600:EFA0:C5B7:ECFB:7F54:4012 (talk) 19:39, 27 May 2024 (UTC)

58 and 59 are identical 2601:80:8600:EFA0:C5B7:ECFB:7F54:4012 (talk) 19:40, 27 May 2024 (UTC)

They seem different? Selfstudier (talk) 08:40, 29 May 2024 (UTC)

Incorrect use of inline citation throughout

Many paragraphs in this article share the same error, I can go through paragraph by paragraph and reference by reference if needed, but in general: if a paragraph is 5 sentences long and only cites one source, there is no reason to have 5 identical inline citations in that paragraph. Just one at the end of the paragraph is sufficient and is the way to adhere to Wikipedia’s guidelines on clutter. 174.247.80.205 (talk) 20:58, 26 May 2024 (UTC)

Specifics, please. Selfstudier (talk) 21:59, 26 May 2024 (UTC)

Early History, 3rd paragraph is 7 sentences long, and has 7 consecutive links to citation 39. Also, 39 appears to be a dead link.

I suggest removing all instances of [39] and adding one instance of citation needed to the end of the paragraph 2601:80:8600:EFA0:C5B7:ECFB:7F54:4012 (talk) 18:21, 27 May 2024 (UTC)

It's currently 38 and the link is archived here. Selfstudier (talk) 08:48, 29 May 2024 (UTC)

Early History 4th paragraph has 8 consecutive references to citation 40. There should only be one citation at the end of the paragraph in this case.

Additionally, reference 40 is an opinion piece. There are no sources in it besides Quranic quotes and at the end the publisher notes “Author is an engineering student. The opinions expressed in this article are those of the author’s and do not purport to reflect the opinions or views of Kashmir Life.”

This passage is a direct quote from the cited editorial: “So many chapters and verses have been revealed in the Quran to enlighten the people about the inhumanity of Israel and its people. The Jews, the people of Israel are cursed for killing their Prophets and disobeying Allah’s commands.

I think we can find a source with better credibility than this and I suggest deleting all instances of [40] and adding cn tag to the end of the paragraph. 2601:80:8600:EFA0:C5B7:ECFB:7F54:4012 (talk) 18:39, 27 May 2024 (UTC)

Currently 39, I removed all but one and tagged it for better source. Selfstudier (talk) 09:07, 29 May 2024 (UTC)

Roman Empire paragraphs 2 and 3 exclusively cite reference [44], 6 times in a row. I suggest de-cluttering these redundant citations.

Additionally, the second paragraph misquotes its source by stating, “After the Jewish revolts, the Romans abolished the client kingdom and transformed Judea into a Roman province called Judea.” This is clearly false on its face. Obviously the Romans did not “transform Judea into Judea”.

Source 44 actually states, “The Emperor Hadrian was so enraged by Jewish resistance that he re-named the province Syria Palaestina (after the two traditional enemies of the Jews, the Syrians and the Philistines) and banished all Jews from the region, building his city Aelia Capitolina on the ruins of Jerusalem.”

I suggest re-writing paragraph 2 to more accurately reflect the content of the source. Edits in brackets:

After the Jewish revolts, the Romans abolished the client kingdom and [changed the name of the province from Judea to Syria Palaestina.] The Roman administration imposed direct rule, leading to the [banishment] of [all] Jewish communities [in the region.] The destruction of the Second Temple… 2601:80:8600:EFA0:C5B7:ECFB:7F54:4012 (talk) 19:24, 27 May 2024 (UTC)

Middle Age paragraph 3, 6 consecutive links to reference 50. 1 link at the end of the paragraph will suffice.

Middle Age paragraph 4, 8 consecutive links to reference 51. 2601:80:8600:EFA0:C5B7:ECFB:7F54:4012 (talk) 19:29, 27 May 2024 (UTC)

Ottoman Palestine paragraph 2, 4 consecutive links to [52].

Additionally, [50] and [52] are identical urls. All instances of 52 should be deleted and replaced with 50 2601:80:8600:EFA0:C5B7:ECFB:7F54:4012 (talk) 19:33, 27 May 2024 (UTC)

There has been some editing of the article, can you redo the ones not yet fixed, thanks. Selfstudier (talk) 23:00, 30 May 2024 (UTC)

All issues with that section are resolved. Thank you Doug. 174.247.80.69 (talk) 23:08, 30 May 2024 (UTC)