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Archive 1

Sankaracharya used force against Buddhist?

I moved this to discussion. Please provide sources for these claims, esp. that Shankara used force against Buddhists. The claim that it once was a Buddhist temple, (it may be correct or not-I don't know) also needs sources. (And which Buddhists are claiming this?)

Recently, Buddhists have jumped into the fray, claiming that the site was a Buddhist temple before being forcibly taken over by the Hindus from whom the Muslims forcibly took it over! Fantastic as it may seem, this claim is not so improbable, given that most of Gangetic India had converted to Buddhism and remained so for more than half a millenium, and that Adi Sankaracharya who restored Hinduism, is known to have used force at several places against the Buddhist and Jains, regarded as heretics from Hinduism by orthodox Hindus. --Alexeifjodor 10:27, 16 May 2005 (UTC)

I believe that the claim that there was a Buddhist temple on the site was initially made by members of the Muslim community attempting to discredit Hindu claims to the temple site- they maintained that the previous Buddhist temple had been destroyed by Hindus to build their temple, but that now the Hindus were crying foul that the Muslims had done the same. Later, at least one leader of a 'scheduled caste' organization who was a Buddhist convert staked a claim on behalf of Buddhists, on the basis of historical accounts of Buddhist temples (link here). These claims seem to have been abandoned following the archaeological investigation, which found no identifiably Buddhist artifacts. --Clay Collier 12:01, 18 May 2005 (UTC)


sources

thought that compiling a "good" collection of sources would be a one way to start improving this article. Doldrums 13:37, 21 December 2005 (UTC)

  • monograph discussing historical evidence for existence of the Rama temple.

The article is NOT biased. Clear Evidences from Archiolological Survay of India are given.

If you read the article properly, and related evidences, it makes one clear that it is not biased. findings of inscriptions, yaksha idol and pillors clearly shows that the mosque was created on the destructed temple. Uday 13:15, 3 May 2006 (UTC)


First of all, it's Archaeological Survey** Second, the article IS biased. The archaeological evidence provided for the findings of the inscriptions was by a VHP and BJP organized and funded archaeological commission/ study. The OFFICIAL Archaeological Association of India could not find ANY evidence of temple or anything else for that matter. The idols and pillars were allegedly moved into the mosque by Hindu nationalists during Jawaharlal Nehru's government. There are letters to the Chief Minister of Uttar Pradesh of that time written by Jawaharlal Nehru that express concern over the idols being moved into the mosque. He saw it as a potential threat to the nation's peace. THEREFORE, there is NO EVIDENCE, written or otherwise, that the mosque was created after destroying a Hindu temple. In fact, the actual "birthplace" is known to be a few kilometers away from the site, as noted in several different versions of the Ramayana. The changes in the terrain and the distance from the river have all been accounted for. The whole tear-down of the mosque and the resulting riots were all a political move that used people's religion and beliefs solely for the benefit of BJP and its "father", the RSS. Or the Rashtriya Swayamsevak Sangh (for people who don't know). And next time, please research your facts before trying to convince yourself or anyone else about an issue. India is a nation of pluralism. It includes many cultures and religions. That's how it's always been and that's how it always will be. So it's high time that people GET OVER THEMSELVES and stop getting manipulated into stupid political games. They don't care if you're a Muslim or a Hindu until they need you to do something for them. Open your eyes and look around. Learn the facts. Because everyone in the rest of the world, can see it.

Marxist references

The article mentions "marxist" historians several times. Is there any reason for this, or is it merely pejorative? Garrettcobb 00:24, 8 May 2006 (UTC)

Marxist historian is mentioned because maybe they are marxist and biased historians, who do research to support political purposes. Hikingdom 14:58, 13 May 2006 (UTC)
Marxist historians are well known in India. Read Tom Bottomore: Dictionary of Marxist Thought, Blackwell, Oxford 1988, entry “Hinduism”. It describes Romila Thapar as a Marxist historian.
This article could use a once over from any non-religious person, Marxist or not.

factual Accuracy additions

Some authors have simply added Factual errors flags without mentioning why..I believe that at this point both the views are accounted.To make this article balanced , I sugest it point separately what the Hindu parties and Muslim partries admit rather than imposing them with a cut and paste idea version.

The tags have been added by me on request by Wiki alf the admin. If you'd atleast see the time and date, you'd realise that I havent had time enough to comment here. Eggman64 17:16, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

Removed "Literary Sources" and "Some results.."

Literary Sources

This section is a copy-paste from one pro-Hindu book. Content is unverifiable and has been moved to Harsh Narain's entry.Eggman64 17:12, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

The section seems rather copy and paste from original sources, it cites original work like Mirza Jain, an Islamist. Why should the content be unverifiable if it is sourced? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Msiev (talk • contribs) 14:57, May 30, 2006.Msiev

Yep I've changed it to a NPOV stance because I feel, Muslim ideas are sorely limited. Also, H. Narain's book cannot be verified online, hence it needs to be moved out as it is not verifiable See> [dubious – discuss]Eggman64 17:12, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

Honestly, your argument is indeed dubious. Only online Internet sources can be cited??? This sounds like bookphobia to me. And most of the content in the literary section has as reference not Harsh Narain if you read the article. --Msiev 14:04, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

Some results...

This biased and pro Hindu rhetoric need not be "information" on an encyclopedia. It is truly Hindutva/VHP propaganda. No "claims" should be included in an entry on Lord Rama's birth. Why not create an alternate one hereEggman64 17:12, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

82.44.179.214 edits and 62.189.60.30's vandalism

Rather yours is a vandalism.Claims on Taj Mahal and other Muslim monuments form the environment in which the Hindutva campaign is moving the Indian society.See for instance http://www.hinduunity.org/articles/bharathistory/tejomahaltruestory.html

This is not the Taj Mahal article. --Msiev 14:04, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

Msiev edits

I have reasons to believe that Msiev's edits are being done to present a single sided version of the story.The article is being made soft towards the VHP,Bajrang Dal and Hindutva stand.His writings give an impression that there certainly existed a Rama temple and that Rama was born there .When this is a question sub-judice.OK to present the Hindu view but mark it as Hindu view not that of an independent observer.

I only tried to npov'ize the edits by user:82.44.179.214. But it was probably a mistake to try to npov'ize his edits. They should be left as they are, so people will easier recognize it as the anti-scientific polemics that they are. The article should not say that there was a Rama temple, but it should present all the relevant facts and data. --Msiev 17:11, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

Marxist and dispute after 1990

  • The main players in the Ayodhya debate were on one side the Mulim and Marxist historians. Many of the prominent figures were Marxist historians, such as Romila Thapar and many others. It should be noted somewhere.
  • It was commonly believed until about 1990 that an ancient Ram Janmabhoomi temple was demolished and replaced with the Babri Mosque which stood on the site until 1992. The Encyclopædia Britannica of 1989 reported that the Babri Mosque stood "on a site traditionally identified" as an earlier temple dedicated to Rama's birthplace.
This is a fact. “Rama’s birthplace is marked by a mosque, erected by the Moghul emperor Babar in 1528 on the site of an earlier temple”, according to the 1989 edition of the Encyclopaedia Britannica, entry “Ayodhya”. If there is a source that says something else, include it in the article.--Msiev 14:44, 1 June 2006 (UTC)
This was again changed. It is a fact that there was a consensus before 1990 that the Babri Masjid stood on an ancient Rama temple. If this is disputed, include a source that says otherwise in the article. --Msiev 17:15, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

- - *The controversy started in those years and hence no comments were recorded on whether the temple existed there or not..the best sources to cite would therefore be the comments of the court which was deciding the case.When you cite consensus who do you include.Did Muslims agree Rama was born there or did the other university Historians admit that he was indeed born there and a temple was razed.You have construed the silence of historians as an admission to the Hindu claims? - - I was just checking The Week online and it says if ASI's version is to be believed there was a Shaiva temple there and not Vaishnav.So that means Rama, a Vishnu avatar was nowhere in the picture...

Before 1990, the view did exist that the mosque stood on an ancient temple. The view that this is not true only exists since the early 1990s. --Msiev 12:54, 2 June 2006 (UTC)
  • This view still exists but among the Hindus as it did before.What is so special in noting it here?Does it add any weight to the story?

Citing Sources

Please make sure that "literary sources" are changed to <book> cited by <HArsh Narain> Eggman64 15:49, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

I propose a removal of all links to vhp.org hvk.com ayodhya2000.com miliagazette.com etc, that are withen the sections except from the External links section. Eggman64 10:49, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

Almost every site in this debate will be a biased one. It depends on what is cited, maybe some of them should be removed. --Msiev 11:04, 2 June 2006 (UTC)
Sign your posts on talk pages for meaningful and serious discussions. - Holy Ganga talk 11:18, 2 June 2006 (UTC)
  • Ganga and Msiev - Beneath this garb you intend to remove a News Site - Milligazette when it is already known that VHP site is a propoganda one
Thanks for signing Eggman64 but no thanks for later changing time of signing from 12:49 to 10.49. Propaganda, Propaganda everywhere, even here. Please stop making such reverts and propaganda additions in article. - Holy Ganga talk 13:03, 2 June 2006 (UTC)
Hahaha, you assume too much. I changed the time of signing to the time when the post was made, so as to avoid confusion. I've signed most of my posts but oversight caught me there. Eggman64 13:14, 2 June 2006 (UTC)
Oh, so you made the post exactly 2 hours earlier than that. Lol! - Holy Ganga talk 13:28, 2 June 2006 (UTC)
Propaganda, Propaganda everywhere, even here. Please stop making such reverts and propaganda additions in article. Are you talking to yourself?? Because I sure am hoping so. With a name like Holy Gnges.. (and guaging for the edits you've made) you seem to be the propaganda emitting machine.Eggman64 13:22, 2 June 2006 (UTC)
Your additions and reverts are not based on refrences and logical reasons, so you are making propaganda without any base. Either show some logics, or stop reverting. - Holy Ganga talk 13:28, 2 June 2006 (UTC)
I'm sorry if you are offended. I assure you that I am neither HINDU nor MUSLIM although I am INDIAN (hence neutral). I am proud of my people but sorry, that a significant number can be so intolerant. I have no vendetta against you. However, if you represent the RSS or VHP then I do. Its easy to accuse people of illogical behaviour, but please if you wish to do so, back it up. I have remained diplomatic and Msiev has changed his ways as well. This issue is not an easy one and you must remmber that people have died and sentiments were hurt. here is a list of my edits. Go through them and then accuse me of being "propaganda" (and please use a dictionary)
[1] [2] [3] [4] [5]
All five show the work I did on the refernces section
[6] This one is a major revamp of the Backgroud section that I made yesterday. It is one of the few textual based edits. I have and will always maintain neutrality. Your apoligy is accepted. Eggman64 16:01, 2 June 2006 (UTC)
I find this sadly ironic when compared to this. I would love for you set away the hypocrisy and see that your behaviour has only served to lower the respect you gained for the effort put in (by you) on other Hinduism articles. Its sad that a religion so accepting and integrating can turn so wildly away from its "core concepts". I only request you to try and uncloud your vision before hitting the keys to reply.Eggman64 16:23, 2 June 2006 (UTC)
Excuse me, i don't understand why you are explaining all this to me. I have not written this article. I am here to edit and to make it impartial. Please check my additions and reverts. I have made major edits only in Temple reconstruction and Flaws in ASI report sections. In "Flaws in ASI report" section i have only added another side of view with source to present both sides equally and wrt to my other edit, now you yourself agree that picture should get a place. I only object to major reversions and additions which are without sources and without disscussion on talk page. So, I seriously request you to try and uncloud your vision before hitting the keys to reply. Regards - Holy Ganga talk 17:55, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

Temple Picture

Please explain why there shuld be a pic of the "proposed" Ram temple? Until the SC psses a verdict allowing for the construction to be completed it finds no place here. What is welcome is a picture of the partially completed temple.13:14, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

SC has not stopped construction of this temple at various sites and therefor SC has no problem with this. Today this is a reality and a fact that more than 50% construction of Ram Janmbhoomi temple based on this model has already been completed. So, In Ram janmbhoomi temple reconstruction section of Ram janmabhoomi article, this picture has valid reasons to find place. - Holy Ganga talk 13:23, 2 June 2006 (UTC)
Allright I agree that the pic of the"proposed" temple can be placed there. Please ensure that the wording used is neutral. Eggman64 15:21, 2 June 2006 (UTC)
Thanks for changing your mind and supporting my earlier revert. Regards - Holy Ganga talk 18:27, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

Last note on the way edits are done

There are certain people who reflect a particular viewpoint on the edit .They begin with placing a small icon on NPOV and then gradually start changing the story . So after a few more days it reflects their POV.Not unlike this Ayodhya affair itself - place an idol - claim a Chabootra (platform) and then claim the entire monument.

I agree with your views and have seen this happening explictly in the article. I request that the "literary sources" section be revamped as I feel it is terribly biased. PS. Please sign your comments and disregard flak from Holy Ganga.
Eggman64 11:53, 3 June 2006 (UTC)
That's not flak but only a suggestion for productive and serious discussions on talk pages. For more see: Wikipedia:Sign your posts on talk pages. Signing your posts on talk pages and other discourse (but not on articles) is good etiquette. Discussion is an important part of collaborative editing as it helps other users to understand the progress and evolution of a work and signatures allow people to easily identify the author of a comment.
Regards - Holy Ganga talk 12:23, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

Added Factual error templates

Factual accuracy disputed tags have been added to Findings and Inscriptions sections of the 2003 ASI Report section of the article due to lack of cited/verified sources. These are up for deletion unless Internet verifiable sources can be provided. Also, sources MUST be provided by note-worthy news magaize/sites (eg. Outlook, India Today, Rediff News, Times of India). These sections are particularly volatile and hence their factual accuracy is immensely important. Eggman64 17:26, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

  • Factual accuracy on Inscriptions.
Why is there a "citation needed" just after the citation (Puratattva, No. 23 (1992-3), pp. 35 ff.)? Please don't say because it is not online. The whole inscriptions section is about this.
  • Factual accuracy on "Findings"
The reference for this must be the ASI report. Because the reference must be the ASI report, the reference is in theory okay. If there are doubts about the accuracy, I guess the only thing one can do is to read the original report and compare. But it should be written in plain text, not like it is now, and made a bit shorter.
  • Factual accuracy in Literary sources section
Please mention which parts are disputed in the section.
  • Split section into a new article entitled 2003 ASI Report. I don't think it is necessary, but I'm also not against moving it because it is large. If moving it, why not to Archaeology in Ayodhya or Archaeology of the Babri Masjid/ Ram Janmabhoomi site.
  • Split into a new article entitled Harsh Narain's The Ayodhya Temple Mosque Dispute.
Certainly not with this title, as most of the text has other references. --Msiev 14:25, 1 June 2006 (UTC)
First, thanks Msiev for handling this democratically and not blatantly removing the templates.
Secondly, thanks for helping out with the referncing...much appreciated.
  • Inscriptions..... Is "Puratattva" a book by Ajay Mitra Shastri? And YES an internet source is essential. It would be easy for anyone (read pro-Muslims) to quote a random/make-believe book written by a make believe author. An article like this must have "accessible" information, ie accessible to all.
Search the web for Puratattva. It is an archaeological journal. By Wikipedia standards, sources must not be online. You might not know this, but printed books are valid sources. Of course, the book must also exist. --Msiev 11:04, 2 June 2006 (UTC)
  • Findings...Here you are correct. It must be referenced, as you said. It also needs to be concised and a lengthier version put on another page.
I removed it. It was a copyright violation. --Msiev 15:32, 2 June 2006 (UTC)
  • Literary sources.... I believe this section to be obscenely pro Hindu. Also it contains sources from a single literary source, viz H Narain. Again it would be wise to concise this section, add Internet references and add other literary sources (of varied and concise opinion). I do believe that the title of the section is also wrong (although I named it so). An encyclopedia must give state its facts and these must be referncesd. Hwo this section can be aptly changed or reworked is confusing though (and not of prime importance)
If you read the section, Harsh Narain is mentioned at the beginning, but most of the section does not use Harsh Narain as a (direct) refererence. If it must be moved, then rather to something like "Ayodhya in literature". But if we move this section to another article, the Ram Janmobhoomi will become quite small. Most of the section only quotes the relevant passages. If there are other relevant quotes, you may quote them. --Msiev 11:04, 2 June 2006 (UTC)
Well, after reading this section, I ask myself what is so "obscenely pro Hindu" in this section? Is it that almost only British people and Muslims are quoted, and not Hindus? Is that so obscenely pro Hindu? Or is it history as written by Muslims that is so obscenely pro Hindu? Or that earlier historical sources do not agree with post-1990 claims? What exactly is so obscenely pro Hindu?--Msiev 09:08, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
  • Split into 2003 ASI Report... This is essential. After all this page is about Lord Rama's Birthplace. Why must something of such great religious significance have more refernces to destruction and devastation leaves me in confusion. Also the article is long (55 kb) and the details of the ASI report take up much of this space. It is not easy reading by any means. It would be viable to reduce all sections on the report and link a main article. I agree that 'Archaeology in Ayodhya' or 'Archaeology of the Babri Masjid/ Ram Janmabhoomi site' are better names. They would be suitable as well. Redirect pages would be needed as well.
The article is about the Ram Janmabhoomi temple, rather than about about Rama's birthplace.--Msiev 11:04, 2 June 2006 (UTC)
  • Split into Harsh Narain's book article ....I believe we can directly link this to his page and create a separate section there (albeit a lengthier one)
Eggman64 10:14, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

Encyclopedia Brittanica

This citation is false. There is no edition published in 1989.Eggman64 12:12, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

According to whom? I'm adding a more precise reference to the article. --Msiev 08:46, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
There was no 1986 edition either....Don't be lazy, read the Encyclopædia Britannica.
Don't be lazy indeed, read the Encyclopædia Britannica, and not only its wikipedia article. It is in the 15th edition, and the year 1986 is the year that is in my version of the Encyclopædia Britannica. --Msiev 13:02, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

Ram as God

"I as a Hindu would know. I have never heard or seen anyone praying to Ram."

Then you must'nt have noticed that every second temple in north India seems to have idols of Ram, Laksman and Sita.

Also, Rama, Lakshmana etc are used instead to Ram as it is an accurate translation of the sanskrit terms. Ram is merely the phonetic version.


I don't want you to take this as a personal attack, but it's hard for me to tell that you're a Hindu from your words. And here's why: Rama(and this is the way many people pronounce it, especially Southern Indians) is one of the most popular Hindu deities. It's fair to say that Tulsidas's Ramcharitmanas, emphasizing that Ram is the supreme lord, is one of the most widely read religious texts in Upper India. Also, the biggest Vaishnava sampradaya in upper India is the Ramanandi Panth, in which the most important deity is Sita Ram. Now, there are sects within Hinduism that do not emphasize the worship of Ram, and perhaps you are a member of such a sect. But for one to say that he or she is Hindu and has never heard or seen anyone worshipping Ram would make another Hindu raise an eyebrow pretty high. Be sure that it made me.

Me too. Rama rocks!--Dangerous-Boy 09:31, 16 January 2006 (UTC)

This tigger kid is fighting a losing battle all those ASI people are idiots and this guy is right every person on this earth knows how Muslims have trampled upon all religions no body doubts there was a temple. What cheek this guy has ? Really!

Regarding that, the article refers to The Lord (Jai Shri Ram) as "King Ram" (Ram Naam Satya Hai). Is that an appropriate title? I mean, of course Shri Ram (Jai Shri Ram) was a King (of Ayodhya) but was His ceremonial title "Raja Ram" (Ram Naam Satya Hai) or "Samrat Rama" (Ram Naam Satya Hai)? I recall that the Valmiki Ramayana refers to Him as "Samrat" more often than "Raja", so it should be "Emperor Rama" (Ram naam Satya Hai), right? If there is any issue with this, we should change to the more neutral "Sir/Lord Ram" (Jai Shri Ram). Tell me what you think.(Pusyamitra Sunga 04:11, 7 July 2006 (UTC))

Link titles like "Pro-Muslim", "pro-hindu", Marxist, Indian secular and so on are very unusual for wikipedia. User:62.189.60.30 even added link titles like "Jewish" to links without any reason. It only hints at this user's antisemitism? --Msiev 10:03, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

  • If there has been a consensus that temple exisited then why does AIBMAC still continue with the case (since 1949) when it explicitly says it will give away the monument if proven temple existed there..Hindu parties can simply show them that they have changed stance only from 1990 onwards..

I believe qualification of the links is necessary as most of them are biased from one or other POV.

The user is not Antisemitic but he can not accept biased ideas presented by Islamophobes including Zionists like Stephen Knapp whose sole aim is to divide the Indian society.

62.189.60.30 11:01, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

Stephen Knapp is a 'Zionist'. Sure, sure, blame it all on those pesky 'Zionists' (i.e Jews). Good old 'Protocols of the Learned Elders of Zion'.How typical.Anti-Semitic bigotry at its finest right here.(Pusyamitra Sunga 03:19, 8 July 2006 (UTC))
Sorry Netaji - Pussyamitra - The correct link for Zionism is [7]
Learn history. Anti-Semites began their propaganda with the Protocols. Anti-Semitic muslims should not be encouraged. Just mocked & sent on their way. They have lost, Zionism and Israel have won. BWAHAHAHA! (Pusyamitra Sunga 11:55, 10 July 2006 (UTC))

Claims from Encyclopaedia Britannica

Here is a copy of a reply I got from the Deputy Editor of EB.

Dear Mr. XXXX  : Your message below was forwarded to me from our UK office. The text you refer to appears in our article Ayodhya (Oudh). The current text has been edited somewhat, and it now reads:

Despite the city's great age, there are few surviving monuments of any antiquity. The Babri Mosjid (“Mosque of Babur”) was built in the early 16th century by the Mughal emperor Babur on a site traditionally identified as Rama's birthplace and as the location of an ancient Hindu temple, the Ram Janmabhoomi. Because of its significance to both Hindus and Muslims, the site was often a matter of contention. In 1990, riots in northern India followed the storming of the mosque by militant Hindus intent on erecting a temple on the site; the ensuing crisis brought down the Indian government. Two years later, on Dec. 6, 1992, the three-story mosque was demolished in a few hours by a crowd of Hindu fundamentalists. It was estimated that more than 1,000 people died in the rioting that swept through India following the mosque's destruction.

(I added the italics.)We do not assert definitively that the earlier temple actually existed, but that tradition places it there. If archaeological investigation establishes this fact—or if it disproves it—we will edit our text to reflect this new information.

Thank you for your interest in Encyclopaedia Britannica.

With best regards, XXXX Deputy Editor Encyclopaedia Britannica

  • Based on this could you remove the claim attributed to EB that the temple existed.

Lkadvani 10:49, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

This is totally irrelevant to the quoted citation. Your quotation above is from the current Encyclopedia (post 1990). The quote in the article was from the 15th volume of the Encyclopedia of the years 1986 and 1989. It simply highlights that before 1990 there was a consensus that there was an ancient temple on the site. --Msiev 12:24, 8 July 2006 (UTC)
So you doubt Encyclopoedia Brittanica too.Unless they say what you believe they are liars..

I didn't say I doubt EB, but I'm beginning to doubt your good faith. The above comment from EB is about the current EB (post 1990s), but the quote in the article is from an older edition of the EB (1980s).--Msiev 15:38, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

Ya, We forget that current editions of Brittanica are less accurate than the previous ones.

Lkadvani 17:47, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

No need to be sarcastic. EB has been known to remove information that is 'politically incorrect' but true nonetheless. Is there a 'political correctedness' policy on wikipedia? Don't think so. Besides, Koenraad Elst's scholarly review carries precedence over a vague claim by an EB editor who, for all we know, doen;t exist and you made it all up. Can;t assume good faith from you, given your track record of expressing intense and bilious hatred for everything Indian *cough Hindu *cough.(Netaji 17:54, 18 July 2006 (UTC))

The reason the quote is from an older pre-1990 version of the EB is to show that before the 1990s, there was a consensus that the mosque stood on an ancient temple. This consensus was also reflected in mainstream publications like the EB. --Msiev 16:42, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

NPOV

The page definately needs a "Muslim" point of view (esp. Literary sources). It is, for the most part, a onesided Bajrang Dal/VHP endoctrined article

Its not a full Hindutva article, unless you mean to say the facts are biased. Lots of Muslim Historians are represented. Its hard to deny the facts. Bakaman%% 23:19, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

Muslim POV is there is the Babri Mosque article.Netaji 23:47, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

Nationalism

Why do Hindus need foreigners like Koenraad Elst and Stephen Knapp represent their case..should they know better than Indians?

Because leftist anti-hindus and their muslim bedfellows use foreigners like Michael Witzel and various Christian-Sympathetic pseudoscholars to defame Hindus as part of the 'white man is always right' zeitgeist in India. Important to point that some elements of western scholarship are not so racist, and neutral scholarship, dwindling as it may be, still exists and needs to be documented. Plus, the communist-sympathizing congress government and their leftist buddies in Indian academia are rapidly making neutral scholarship of Indian studies increasingly difficult, including restricting access to historical documentation, and putting in a lot of revisionist garbage about the 'greatness' os Stalinist Russia and whitewashing the holodomor in textbooks and frauulent research papers, for instance, as well as whitewashing the Islamic genocide of Hindus and Sikhs in India.(Pusyamitra Sunga 00:54, 8 July 2006 (UTC))
Actually, the defenders of Indian history (not Witzel gang but Elst's homies) are the growing flock as more and more Indians see the lies the textbooks tell.Bakaman Bakatalk 22:06, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

Article is not at all biased. look at the evidences provided

Uday 13:17, 3 May 2006 (UTC)

As already noted below: Please be specific: what and where exactly is something disputed? --Kyuss 09:18, 13 September 2005 (UTC)

This is one of the best articles I have read on the subject. All the statements are supported by references. The objections are, I notice, mostly from non-Hindus, and some of them are hilarious, like "I haven't seen Rama worshipped anywhere in India."

The objectors should put their money where their mouth is, and tell which of the statements or references are wrong. Merely objecting is not enough.


Please refrain from unfounded assertions about so-called "non-Hindu" contributors. This discussion should avoid ad hominem attacks and focus on accurate reporting.
I agree that the article is both heavily biased and poorly written. Those who disagree seem to view this article relative to other internet articles on the subject. However, Wikipedia's standards of impartiality matter here - not external, oft-venomous websites on the subject. Here is one example of devious citing presently in the Wikipedia article:
In 1949, idols of Lord Ram appeared in the Babri Masjid miraculously. The semi-governmental Wakf Board, an Indian Muslim trust owned the land on which the mosque stood. Both Hindu and Muslim parties launch civil suits and the Indian government, declaring the site "disputed", locks the gates to the mosque.[3]
And here is the actual quotation from the cited source - BBC News:
1949: Idols of Lord Rama appear inside mosque allegedly placed there by Hindus. Muslims protest, and both parties file civil suits. The government proclaims the premises a disputed area and locks the gates.
I implore vigilant contributors to parse this entry and verify all citations. 75.47.129.148 (talk) 01:24, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

Inaccurate statement

The article states :

"The Ayodhya of Ram is believed to have existed in the Treta Yuga of the Hindu calendar, about 900,000 years ago to 1.3 Millions of years ago."

That is an atrociously inaccurate statement. Please refer http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homo_erectus for timeline of human evolution and edit/omit that statement. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 125.99.104.5 (talk) 11:00, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

Agree and the removed statement. Even the reference to Hindu mythology where Treta Yuga is not reliable since it is from a person who is critical to hindu POV192.11.225.116 (talk) 07:35, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

Small edit to intro

I changed the first sentence of this article- the part about Rama being a 'historical figure'. I've replaced it with 'major figure in Indian mythology. The subsequent sentence is also changed accordingly.Barnikel (talk) 10:21, 13 September 2009 (UTC)Barnikel

This one has multiple duplicates because each viewpoint wants to write its own history. This just makes the article a mess. There needs to be one history and then one section to refute. Mdw0 (talk) 14:22, 4 December 2009 (UTC)

Edits by User:81.1.119.212 (and others?)

This article is biased. See also the similar Talk:Babri Mosque. A comparison of the viewpoints of both sides will confirm that the current version is biased. --Kdlb 10:22, 20 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Yes the original is/was horribly biased. I've tried to shore it up by redoing the Top, and trying to set right some part of the rest. But I think the admin needs to put a Biased sign after the introduction. --Tigger69

Please be specific: what and where exactly is something disputed? I removed the sentence on buddhist viharas because it doesn't say which temples (is it really the Ram temple?), which author/books say this. Please give sources. One issue is the organization of the article. I think the information regarding history of the mosque 1528-1990s and the political debate should be in mosque article, but is not always clear.

I do not believe that this article is biased. How are you going to say a temple did not exist, when you cannot prove that it did not exist. How is a conqueror's Mosque worth more than a God's birthplace, it will never be. Its Ram's Birthplace, and please don't disrespect that. - Wish


The article IS biased. The archaeological evidence provided for the findings of the "Sanskrit", and therefore allegedly "Hindu", inscriptions was by a VHP and BJP organized and funded archaeological commission/ study. The idols and pillars were allegedly moved into the mosque by Hindu nationalists during Jawaharlal Nehru's government. There are letters to the Chief Minister of Uttar Pradesh of that time written by Jawaharlal Nehru that express concern over the idols being moved into the mosque. He saw it as a potential threat to the nation's peace. THEREFORE, there is NO EVIDENCE, written or otherwise, that the mosque was created after destroying a Hindu temple. IF THERE IS NO EVIDENCE THAT THERE WAS A HINDU TEMPLE, how the heck can YOU say there was one? THE ABSENCE OF EVIDENCE tells ME that it wasn't there. In fact, the actual "birthplace" is known to be a few kilometers away from the site of the mosque, as noted in several different versions of the Ramayana. The changes in the terrain and the distance from the river have all been accounted for. So just because Lord Ram was born in Ayodhya, doesn't mean the whole city can't have a mosque in it. And it's NOT a conqueror's mosque. It was a place of WORSHIP for ALLAH, which means GOD. So, God's birthplace is significant, but so is the MOSQUE. The whole tear-down of the mosque and the resulting riots were all a political move that used people's religion and beliefs solely for the benefit of BJP and its "father", the RSS. Or the Rashtriya Swayamsevak Sangh (for people who don't know). And next time, please research your facts before trying to convince yourself or anyone else about an issue. India is a nation of pluralism. It includes many cultures and religions. That's how it's always been and that's how it always will be. So it's high time that people GET OVER THEMSELVES and stop getting manipulated into stupid political games. They don't care if you're a Muslim or a Hindu until they need you to do something for them. Open your eyes and look around. Learn the facts. Because everyone in the rest of the world, can see it. EXCEPT YOU. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Theintellect94 (talk • contribs) 22:11, 18 October 2012 (UTC)

Birthplace

BM, as of now, there is not one rigorous source saying that Ram WAS born at that exact spot, so we cannot present it as fact, only as belief. Provide a source, then we will change it. Vanamonde93 (talk) 06:09, 21 January 2014 (UTC)

If not here, where he was born then? Bladesmulti (talk) 06:17, 21 January 2014 (UTC)
That is a silly question. I don't know, and what I think doesn't matter. Go read WP:OR. All we are supposed to do, is to collect and summarize things from reliable sources. If no such sources exist, then we cannot present something as fact. And please don't start talking about how Wikipedia says Jesus was born in Bethlehem; because Jesus is a much more recent figure, lots more data exist. I repeat, go find sources. Vanamonde93 (talk) 06:34, 21 January 2014 (UTC)
Ok i have changed it to "regarded", instead. Bladesmulti (talk) 06:46, 21 January 2014 (UTC)
And I reverted it, because that is ungrammatical. What is your problem with "believed"? It is a neutral word, it doesn't imply something is false. Vanamonde93 (talk) 06:50, 21 January 2014 (UTC)
Agree, "believe" should be good enough.-sarvajna (talk) 20:25, 21 January 2014 (UTC)

POV tag

I tagged this article for POV, because of the map given in the infobox. It shows the location of a "ram temple" at Ayodhya, which is a clear violation of NPOV, since all that exists at this point is a minor shrine, and the supposed ruins of the temple. Unfortunately, I don't know how to fix this issue, but the tag should remain till a more factual map is in place. Vanamonde93 (talk) 08:29, 6 December 2013 (UTC)

And I removed it, what makes it non-neutral? -sarvajna (talk) 20:21, 21 January 2014 (UTC)
It is also the site of the mosque, that's what makes it non-neutral. The map is giving undue weight to the temple. Given the importance of the Mosque in the whole dispute, it merits a tag. I would have tagged the picture itself, but I don't think that is possible. Otherwise, fix the problem, I have no issues with that, I don't have the ability to do it myself. Vanamonde93 (talk) 21:03, 21 January 2014 (UTC)
There is any mosque now? You might be involved in 3 rr. Bladesmulti (talk) 04:24, 22 January 2014 (UTC)
1) You are right, I am in technical violation of 3RR, and therefore self-reverted my last edit. However, since the first two of those were for edits that were distinct from the current argument, and are no longer really in dispute, I don't think I am violating its spirit.
2) Since the topic was still being discussed here, Sarvajna should not have removed the tag. If either of you have any sense of courtesy, you will replace it now, because:
3) The article is about the site/piece of land, which once contained a mosque, as well as supposedly a temple. Therefore, an infobox talking only about a temple is not NPOV. Just to be clear, an infobox about a Mosque on this page would be equally problematic. Vanamonde93 (talk) 04:45, 22 January 2014 (UTC)
This is correct, but I have only asked, that if there is still any mosque, daily prayers? If there are, then only it will be notable. Bladesmulti (talk) 04:52, 22 January 2014 (UTC)
If the article had been about the temple, I would not have such a problem. The article is NOT about the semi-historical temple; it is about the SITE. So, the Hindu temple infobox is incorrect. Moreover, I am not calling the whole article anything. The templates are used to draw attention to problems that need fixing, which is exactly the intent here. Vanamonde93 (talk) 05:03, 22 January 2014 (UTC)
If the Hindu temple template is replaced with the infobox for ancient sites, and the "Ram Temple" on the map is changed to "Ram Janmabhoomi", I would drop the whole matter. Vanamonde93 (talk) 05:09, 22 January 2014 (UTC)
And then if you already have a probable solution then without even trying that why were you edit warring on sticking up a big orange tag which reads "The neutrality of this article is disputed."? §§Dharmadhyaksha§§ {T/C} 05:16, 22 January 2014 (UTC)
First, I did not "already" have a solution; the tag had been there six weeks before this argument. Second, I was looking for a solution; this particular argument prompted me to look intensively, and I found one. I did not edit war over the template itself; I reverted that exactly once. I would replace the template now, but I would technically violate 3RR. If nobody does it before then, I will replace it tomorrow. Vanamonde93 (talk) 05:29, 22 January 2014 (UTC)
Besides, when I point out a possible solution, why are you coming to the TP to nag me about it, instead of simply implementing it? You know I could be accused of edit warring if I did it myself. Vanamonde93 (talk) 05:33, 22 January 2014 (UTC)

Undue Archaeology

There is far too much weight given to the archaeology of the site, particularly to tiffenthaler, who does not qualify as a scholarly source, and isn't really archaeology anyway. I intend to fix this. Contemporary archaeology might be more appropriate. Vanamonde93 (talk) 21:40, 20 April 2015 (UTC)

There isn't any real archaeology discussed in that section. This page is in poor shape and there isn't much interest in it any more. I think we should merge it into Ayodhya dispute. What we really need is a page on the Rama Janmabhoomi movement. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 23:20, 21 April 2015 (UTC)
Feel free to propose a merger, but the Hindutva brigade will show up in force, and the proposal is not going to fly. You know that, and I know that. So I think it may be more worthwhile to at least fix this page, which we can do, since none of them are actually capable of creating sourced content. Vanamonde93 (talk) 03:24, 22 April 2015 (UTC)
I don't think there is too much given to archaelogy. Archaeology is a very important part of the conflict, which is also about the question if a temple existed at the site or not. If there is too much archaeology related information, it can be merged into the Archaeology article.--Calypsomusic (talk) 12:29, 23 April 2015 (UTC)
Let me repeat. There is no archaeology in this article. I have renamed that section. Kautilya3 (talk) 12:38, 23 April 2015 (UTC)
FWIW, when I titled this section, I was referring to the section title of the article, not to the studies of the site itself. Sure, archaeology is important, but the stuff in the article is not scholarly, and not archaeological, which is why it must be trimmed. Vanamonde93 (talk) 14:30, 23 April 2015 (UTC)

Proposed merger

It is proposed that this article be merged into Babri Masjid. Please see the relevant discussion at Talk:Babri Masjid#Proposed merger. Vanamonde93 (talk) 17:00, 8 December 2014 (UTC)

I deny the merger, they are separate entities belong to different religion. Babri Masjid is itself disputed, confusion on it existence too. Kswarrior (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 05:03, 30 April 2017 (UTC)

revertion of my edit

@Kautilya3:The reference was meant to clear up the fact that Allahabad Court had endorsed the fact that a structure was demolished to make way for the mosque(or whatever was there before the citation needed template along those lines.FORCE RADICAL (talk) 08:42, 3 May 2017 (UTC)

The context there is Tulsidas. So the citation you added there is misleading. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 11:28, 3 May 2017 (UTC)

@Kautilya3: With regards to the disputed content,an IP had removed that particular area from the consensus version(stating that he was updating the Articles according to present facts) [1]Tyler Durden reverted his edit[2] You reverted him back.Since I was on my tab I reinserted the text (since it was from the old consensus version) .Thus it is up to the IP to provide his sources for the change since this FORCE RADICAL (talk) 05:20, 18 June 2017 (UTC)

@Kautilya3: With respect to this; I don't have the time to investigate in depth at the moment, but the content in the article certainly suggests that the existence of a Ram Temple is in dispute. The parenthetical "temple at all" should probably be removed, but the rest can probably be reinstated. Vanamonde (talk) 13:25, 18 June 2017 (UTC)
Forceradical, I don't think anything in this article has much of consensus. The comment that I removed (admittedly following an IP) is neither sourced nor covered in the body. So it is unverified. After the Allahabad judgement, there were some newspaper commentaries but, afterwards, it all died down. There is no serious dispute regarding the facts of the situation any more. You believe otherwise, please feel free to provide sources.
Vanamonde93, I don't think anybody claimed that there was a prior Ram temple, but the ASI concluded that there was a massive Hindu shrine. I regard the court proceedings akin to peer-reviewed sources because the experts from both the sides got a chance to give evidence which was open to cross-examination by the lawyers and judges. These conclusions cannot be countered by newspaper op-eds. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 23:00, 18 June 2017 (UTC)
@Kautilya3: Well sure, I am not remotely suggesting we base the article on an Op-Ed; and the opinions of Muslim leaders deserve no more consideration than those of the other folks with a vested interest. I'm not particularly opposed to leaving it be as it is, and I certainly think that parenthetical remark should be removed. I'm just pointing out that the body of the article does in fact support the idea that the existence of the Ram temple is in dispute. Vanamonde (talk) 04:32, 19 June 2017 (UTC)
Yeah, I think we have to leave it as it is, at least for now. I can add later some demands made by scholars and the Masjid parties. But otherwise, we have to go by what is documented in the High Court judgement. The ASI was under constraints regarding discussing in press, by court order as well as their own policies. The pro-Masjid scholars that commented in press were held in contempt of court. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 17:06, 19 June 2017 (UTC)

High Court judgement

[Copied from User talk:Kautilya3#Ram Janmabhoomi Page]

Kindly let me know what wasn't neutral in my edit & I'll back it with court orders. As a lawyer, I'd love to challenge this. However, in absence of same, the same yardstick must be applied to the current content of the page which provides no credible links & is therefore ineligible to be termed "neutral". I have backed ALL my edits with links. Thanks. Jimmy9bond (talk) 14:35, 11 August 2017 (UTC)

That is great. Can you then apply your lawyer's mind to tell me which sentence or sentences in the cited source imply what you wrote:

The Allahabad High Court in its judgement confirmed that the birth place of Lord Ram was indeed at the same place in Ayodhya on which Babri Mosque was erected.[1]

References

  1. ^ http://m.hindustantimes.com/india/disputed-site-in-ayodhya-is-ram-s-birthplace-high-court/story-w9u1q7hRHom8wER3vj1WeN.html
-- Kautilya3 (talk) 14:56, 11 August 2017 (UTC)

You appear to be an egoist & since you've reverted in the manner you deemed fit, it opens doors to treat you with the same. 1) The source quoted, you didn't quite read it. But you should've read the headline at least if not reading the article of a reputed national daily at least. Or you skipped it because you didn't find it "neutral"? ;) 2) Allow me in that case to embarrass you further by asking you to read the Allahabad HC judgement, which you should've before showing your shallow anti -Hindu bigotry. Quoting the exact court order verbatim: Issue No. 1b: Whether the building had been constructed on the site of an alleged Hindu temple after demolishing the same? Answer: Affirmative, Yes. The above question was put across a 3 judge bench & was won with an "affirmitive" yes (2-1) by Justices Sudhir Agarwal & Dharamveer Sharma. Kindly DO NOT, & I repeat for the sake of your fragile, ill-equipped ego, DO NOT Google search the court verdict PDF as you'll find it "not neutral". Hope after this dressing down (publicly) you'll begin to stand by truth, talk to people politely & learn to research on subjects before approving/disapproving legally tenable edits. But then you edited back Lord Rama to Rama. Sad to see such Hinduphobic extremists guised as editors. What has Wikipedia been reduced to. Sad state of quality. Hope someone intervenes. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jimmy9bond (talk • contribs) 18:09, 12 August 2017 (UTC)

You have completely dodged the question I asked. What part of the source supports the sentence you wrote? This is a Wikipedia requirement: The cited source must clearly support the material as presented in the article. Cite the source clearly and precisely (specifying page, section, or such divisions as may be appropriate). Without doing this you are not going to get anywhere. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 18:42, 12 August 2017 (UTC)

The headline. Care to read it? And what made you revert Lord Ram to Ram? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jimmy9bond (talk • contribs) 18:59, 12 August 2017 (UTC) Read: "Disputed site in Ayodhya is Ram's birthplace: High Court The Allahabad High Court on Thursday ruled that the disputed land in Ayodhya where a makeshift temple was built after razing the Babri mosque in 1992 was Lord Ram\'s birthplace." — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jimmy9bond (talk • contribs) 19:01, 12 August 2017 (UTC)

Ah, the headlines don't count. They are often sensationalised slogans invented by copy editors. Unless the substance of the headline is written in the body with enough supporting detail, it should be ignored. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 19:24, 12 August 2017 (UTC)
As for "Lord Ram", see WP:RNPOV. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 19:24, 12 August 2017 (UTC)

I knew this would be your bigoted reply. Hence copy-pasted the 4 introductory lines of the article. But if the court order doesn't count clearly the content of the article (backing the headline) won't count either. Right? Lol. Jimmy9bond (talk) 19:27, 12 August 2017 (UTC)

If you keep goiong with these pesonal attacks, you are going to get blocked. So, quit making them and focus on the issues.
Koenraad Elst[1] does a good job of analysing the Ayodhya judgement. Here is what he says:

Mr. Justice Dharam Veer Sharma opens by affirming: “The disputed site is the birth place of Lord Ram.” Mr. Justice Sudhir Agarwal concurs: “The area covered under the central dome of the disputed structure is the birthplace of Lord Rama as per faith and belief of Hindus.” The one Muslim on the Bench, Mr. Justice Sibghat Ullah Khan, isn’t equally affirmative on this point, and merely accepts: “That after some time of construction of the mosque Hindus started identifying the premises in dispute as exact birth place of Lord Ram”. That is why: “[M]uch before 1855 Ram Chabutra and Seeta Rasoi [‘Sita’s kitchen’] had come into existence and Hindus were worshipping in the same.”

So, one judge says that it is the birthplace. One says it is the birthplace by faith and belief, and the third says that at some pont Hindus started identifying it as such. Hardly a unanimous opinion. The Hindustan Times copy editor has to make up a pithy slogan to sell his newspaper. Wikipedia, on the other hand, doesn't sell anything. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 19:57, 12 August 2017 (UTC)

References

  1. ^ Elst, Koenraad (September 2011), "Ayodhya's three history debates", Journal of Indian History and Culture

1) I had already said that in the 3 judge bench, it was a 2-1 judgement in favour of the Hindus. What great finding have you done in pointing out that the Muslim judge differed although not in entirety? 2) You start personal attacks by saying "apply your lawyer's mind" or by calling editor of a reputed news daily as one who "make up a pithy slogans to sell his newspaper". But calling out your bigotry is a personal attack. 3) Hindustan Times is not unanimous according to you, but 1 judge out of 3 differs in a judgement, that is accepted as unanimous & must be written as the final word on a Wiki page? That's your neutrality? 4) First 5 paragraphs of the introductory section are without a single CITATION. How has that been approved? While the one giving a credible news article, plus a court judgement is not accepted as a valid source? This is laughable. Wiki is ruled by such bullies. Question them & they threaten you of block. Hope someone intervenes & does the revert.Jimmy9bond (talk) 21:49, 12 August 2017 (UTC)

If there's any bigotry here at all, it isn't from Kautilya. If you do not stop making personal comments, you will be blocked. This isn't a threat; it's a statement of Wikipedia practice. Likewise, to add any content, you need to demonstrate that it is supported by reliable, secondary sources. You have not done so. Vanamonde (talk) 05:23, 13 August 2017 (UTC)

Coordinate error

{{geodata-check}}

The following coordinate fixes are needed for


—2409:4061:614:D99A:0:0:1EB4:A1 (talk) 22:16, 30 March 2019 (UTC)

You haven't explained what is wrong with the coordinates currently in the article. If you think that there is an error, you'll need to provide a clear explanation of what it is. Deor (talk) 15:06, 31 March 2019 (UTC)

People opposed to the theory

The lead has the sentence

People opposed to this theory state that such claims arose only in the 18th century, and that there is no evidence for the spot being the birthplace of Rama.

There is no citation or other validation in the body. Rather there is evidence in the body that the place was considered Rama's birthplace in the 17th century, and Akbarnama takes it back even further. Unless somebody can produce sources for the claim, I intend to revise it based on what I know. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 11:40, 14 September 2018 (UTC)

But I think a summary that the 'claim' arose in 18th century is probably right. Does Akbarnama tell that it was the birthplace of Rama? --Gian ❯❯ Talk 15:28, 14 September 2018 (UTC)
I haven't bothered to edit it because really the entire article needs significant restructuring; ideally, it should describe the concept first, then the suggested locations, then the history of the most prominent location. It's completely backwards at the moment, which introduces significant neutrality issues; I just haven't had the time to do a comprehensive overhaul. If you wish to give this a shot, K, please do; I'll try to help out, and between us it shouldn't be too difficult. Vanamonde (talk) 15:52, 14 September 2018 (UTC)

Ram janmbhumi in ayodhya is birthplace of Shri Ram which has been mentioned in many scriptures and researchers including teams of archeological survey of India accepted birthplace temple there. Mention of other birthplaces is not correct as well as acceptable as these are just opinion of some book writers not based on any evidences. Ravikant.rishi (talk) 02:56, 2 November 2019 (UTC)

Religious scriptures can not be considered as historical facts. They may be just myths. --Engineering Guy (talk)

Theory on Hindu shrine demolition

Based on SC judgement, there was indeed a Hindu Shrine which was demolished. This is based on the ASI report on the foundation of the Babri Masjid. But, there is no information as of now to tell who was the main deity of the temple. Chetuach007 (talk) 01:48, 10 November 2019 (UTC)

The temple was in ruins before it was "demolished" and there was no deity in there. The evidence suggests that the ruined temple was being regarded as Rama's house/castle. After it was demolished, it started being regarded as the birthplace.
ASI called it "non-Islamic". According to Hans T. Bakker, it was one of the Vishnu temples built by Gahadavalas. See the pages on Ayodhya dispute and Babri Masjid. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 02:02, 10 November 2019 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 10 November 2019

The dispute has been solved 49.206.9.16 (talk) 16:04, 10 November 2019 (UTC)

 Not done. It's not clear what changes you want to make.

THE DISPUTE HAS BEEN SOLVED BY THE SUPREME COURT OF INDIA

Hindu Nationalist to be replaced by KarSevaks

The Mosque was demolished by Karsevaks with religious intention as they were common people from all over India who gathered there for one purpose to build Ram temple they were not for political agenda but a religious work. So "Hindu nationalist" term should be removed in this article by "Karsevaks" as they demolished temple. Includents.h (talk) 17:26, 12 November 2019 (UTC)

The whole article really needs a complete overhaul, which would include more context in the lead; aside from that, though, Includents.h, what is your objection to placing the ideology of the participants involved in the lead? The demolition followed a political rally, whose organizers are overwhelmingly described as Hindu nationalists by reliable sources. I'm not completely against including the term "kar sevaks" also, but it is a piece of jargon that most readers will not be familiar with, and isn't central to this article. Vanamonde (Talk) 19:36, 12 November 2019 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 20 November 2019

49.206.11.234 (talk) 15:42, 20 November 2019 (UTC)

THE DISPUTE HAS BEEN SETTLED BY THE SUPREME COURT OF INDIA

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. ‑‑ElHef (Meep?) 16:08, 20 November 2019 (UTC)

Reference 16 on Nirmohi Akhara is unaccessible

Reference 16 on Nirmohi Akhara is unaccessible, request someone to provide alternative reference. Request removal of entry if no substantiating reference is found. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Santoshsatvik (talk • contribs) 11:12, 7 April 2020 (UTC)

Why not include important observations from Supreme Court judgment of this historic case?

By adding specific information on important observations made by the Supreme Court of India in its landmark judgement on this historic case, would that be of any help to the reader of this article ? And would that improve the article.? Santoshdts (talk) 20:24, 10 March 2020 (UTC)

Yes, definitely. A judicial review and outcome on the dispute must also be mentioned. Please create the section if not already present.Santosh L (talk) 11:14, 7 April 2020 (UTC)

Disputed site vs Ram Jannmabhoomi

Hello @Vanamonde93: the recent edit by Karnatakapolatics (talk · contribs) changing the the description in infobox from "disputed site" to "Rama Janmabhoomi" which was reverted by you with edit summary: Sorry, given the scope of this article (about the concept, rather than the location) that caption isn't appropriate. As the court case is discussed in the article in multiple instance and the case has been settled, even all the review and curative petitions. Hence, there is no dispute currently and removing disputed site and updating it with current status would be appropriate. Regards Santoshdts (talk) 05:44, 27 April 2020 (UTC)

This is not "description in infobox". It is just the caption for the map. Calling it "Ram Janmabhoomi" is perfectly NPOV and I don't see a problem with it. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 10:31, 27 April 2020 (UTC)
I agree with Santoshdts and Kautilya3. Calling it "Ram Janmabhoomi" would relate to it better. HinduKshatrana (talk) 10:36, 27 April 2020 (UTC)
I do, sorry. When the article states that other locations have been proposed as corresponding to the mythological birthplace of Rama, and also makes it clear that there is no historical evidence for the precise location, Wikipedia presenting a map that suggests we know the precise location is a flagrant violation of NPOV (which persists in the article, because the image caption still uses it). I would have no objection if the caption used language similar to that of our article, along the lines of "widely believed to be the birthplace", or equivalent; something making it clear that this is a (widespread) article of faith, not established fact. Vanamonde (Talk) 15:30, 27 April 2020 (UTC)
Yes, the article states there are possibly other sites referred to as birthplaces. But this article is about Ram Janmabhoomi in Ayodhya and not about other possible birthplaces of Lord Ram. The “disputed site” would have better suited in an article discussing various other birthplaces. As said earlier, this article is about Ram Janmabhoomi at Ayodhya, which is settled even by Supreme Court, duly considering the evidences presented by the various historians including the one who is also the source in the article on the theory of ‘other possible birthplaces. Santoshdts (talk) 16:37, 27 April 2020 (UTC)
Moreover, the source which says there might be 8 different possible birthplaces. Can this source be considered as reliable? As this was dismissed, as were "mere opinions". I would like some some senior editors throw some light on reliability of this source cited, because of their Conflict of Interest in this case? As these Historians report ( which is cited in the article) was prepared as an evidence in a Court case dealing with the Crux of the article, which as said earlier, was dismissed by the Court. Santoshdts (talk) 17:03, 27 April 2020 (UTC)
"But this article is about Ram Janmabhoomi in Ayodhya" No, it's not. The article covers the concept, not the location; the history of the location is described at Babri Masjid and Ayodhya dispute. If you want to change that narrative, you need to show that scholars accept this location to be the birthplace of Rama (not merely saying that this location is believed by devotees to be the birthplace of Rama). Vanamonde (Talk) 17:25, 27 April 2020 (UTC)
I don't think so. There is no evidence that this page is about a concept. Here is the version 0. It is specifically about the place that goes by this name in Ayodhya. If it was about a concept why would any one use a Hindi/Sanskrit name for it rather than "Rama's birthplace"? -- Kautilya3 (talk) 18:46, 27 April 2020 (UTC)
Version zero isn't particularly relevant; articles are frequently not in an appropriate state when created. At the moment, the article contains a substantial amount of information about the concept, and there's no consensus here to remove it. Furthermore, an article solely discussing the location would have POVFORK issues; Archaelogy of Ayodhya, Babri Masjid, and Ayodhya dispute cover all the relevant information. Vanamonde (Talk) 19:40, 27 April 2020 (UTC)
We can raise an issue to remove it. It is all WP:FRINGE stuff anyway. But the Version 0 does define the scope. Unless it has been debated and the scope changed somewhere along the way, we need to stick to it. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 19:56, 27 April 2020 (UTC)

True. The article was on ayodhya as a main subject of discussion and sometime later evolved as a concept. Still, the article doesn't talk much about the concept as such, as it just discusses some sites other than Ayodhya citing some questionable sources in a concluding section, whereas, most of the other sections/subsections are on Ayodhya. The pic was added somewhere in 2014 during that period, the caption was adequate as "disputed site" with respect to the case in India. As, the dispute is resolved, in line with that, caption should change. Unless there is a Notable claim opposing this.

The first version does not define the scope of an article. Discussion isn't the only way to change something; a bold change to the scope, and a subsequent lack of disagreement, is quite sufficent. A proposal to change the scope to the location would be required now. I would oppose such a proposal, because, as I've already said, the history of the location is covered elsewhere. Kautilya, You need to be really careful with what you're calling fringe. Suggestions that Rama was born in Nepal might indeed by fringe; but the suggestion that he was born precisely at the spot indicated on the map is equally so. Scholars are quite explicit that the historicity of Rama is questionable, and the precise location of his birthplace, entirely unknown. If you're arguing otherwise, you better have sources backing you up. Vanamonde (Talk) 22:02, 27 April 2020 (UTC)
The scope of the article is defined by consensus and it's pretty clear that consensus is "it's about the specific location and not the concept of the birthplace of Rama". Whether Rama has historical or not is completely irrelevant here. TryKid (talk) 03:53, 28 April 2020 (UTC)
Hi, @Vanamonde93: I would like to know more about the sources cited in the section:
  • R S.Sharma: Can his work on this subject considered as reliable source wrt his Conflict of interest? I hope you are aware of this, please see p-702-706, Historians appearing in the case as a witness by preparing a report (Cited source) which was dismissed by the highest court of India as ”mere opinion”.
  • Shyam Narain Pande: I am unable to find any other materials like reviews, critique of his work other than the cited source. Do you consider this cited source as reliable in view of, almost zero coverage (at least, I am unable to one) on a [[WP:FRINGE|fringe] theory?
  • Rajesh Kochhar: Same query as above for Pande
  • Rediff article: Can a blog post by an anonymous author, again with questionable coverage be considered a reliable source?

And on the concept of birthplaces: If other possible birthplaces are so explicitly discussed by scholars, why aren't they shown pictorially, ever since the subject of the article became as ”Concept”? Lack of their WP:Notability? Santoshdts (talk) 18:39, 28 April 2020 (UTC)

Nothing hinges on those four sources (which are not of the highest quality). The point they are making (that the claim about this site arose relatively recently) is a more specific and subtle one. My point is quite simple; no serious historian describes this site as the birthplace of Rama; all of them discuss it as an article of faith. Also, the only way the existence of this page as a standalone article can be justified as a standalone page is if it covers the concept of a physical birthplace for Rama; nothing else is unique to this page. Vanamonde (Talk) 19:21, 28 April 2020 (UTC)
Nothing hinges on those four sources; exactly my point. Hence, their ’scholarly analysis’ on the subject cannot be considered, including their theory on other birthplaces of Rama. On the other hand, Kunal Kishore, Meenakshi Jain, Supreme Court and some others point it to Ayodhya and to a specific place in Ayodhya and they have also refuted this claim of (that the claim about this site arose relatively recently). My contention is not on faith, my point is if such sources on their fringe theories are considered, some day we might have to deal with other propagandists (both Right and Left) pushing many such theories, they have plenty of it. My submission related to this article is: When there is a Question on theory of many other birthplaces, whereas, some have Notability on Ayodhya. I don't see the word ”dispute” making sense in the map. Hence, the current caption in the map is incorrect. Santoshdts (talk) 19:52, 28 April 2020 (UTC)
You're mixing a few issues up here; whether or not the birthplace, as described in mythology, is in Ayodhya or elsewhere; when this claim arose; where the site is, within ayodhya; and whether it represents historical reality or a question of faith. The first two of these questions are not in very serious dispute, but the others are. And that is the problem with the figure caption at present. In fact the simplest solution to this dispute might just be to have the caption read "the present-day city of Ayodhya", thereby moving all the uncertainty to the body of the article. Vanamonde (Talk) 19:59, 28 April 2020 (UTC)
No, I don't think there's any mixup. My point per your above analysis is:

If I am reading it correctly, on first two points The first two of these questions are not in very serious dispute

  • whether or not the birthplace?: We both agree
  • as described in mythology? Again we both agree

On others:

  • is in Ayodhya or elsewhere?: In Ayodhya, based on my sources. Which sources refute these claims? (R S.Sharma, Pande, Kocchar, Rediff?) There are some issues with their Notability and should not be considered. Hence, I think no dispute.
  • when this claim arose ?: Not a matter of current discussion.
  • where the site is, within Ayodhya?: Yes, supported by reliable sources among them Supreme Court. And, as there can be only one place of birth to one person. hence, it again refutes the theory of ”many birthplaces”. Hence, again no dispute.
  • whether it represents historical reality or a question of faith?: Both, in the case of Ayodhya have been discussed in my mentioned sources, and in particular the Supreme court.

The above caption suggested by you should suffice unless someone else disagrees with it. regards, Santoshdts (talk) 21:17, 28 April 2020 (UTC)

Remove Uttarpradesh Map

There is not any historical evidence to prove that ayodhya in uttarpradesh,india is the real birthplace of hindu lord Ram. The place was known as Saket or Saketa ( A Buddhist pilgrimage site). Since there are many places suggested for Ram Janmabhoomi and this page is for Ram Janmabhoomi ,not ayodhya in UP, it is better to remove Uttarpradesh map. Instead all other places map can be added. Bhattarai1237 (talk) 06:10, 29 July 2020 (UTC)

"Ram Lalla" listed at Redirects for discussion

A discussion is taking place to address the redirect Ram Lalla. The discussion will occur at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2020 August 5#Ram Lalla until a consensus is reached, and readers of this page are welcome to contribute to the discussion. SerChevalerie (talk) 17:52, 5 August 2020 (UTC)

Relisted at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2020 August 12 § Ram Lalla, please contribute to the discussion there. Best regards, SerChevalerie (talk) 20:02, 12 August 2020 (UTC)

A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion

The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:

Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. —Community Tech bot (talk) 20:59, 19 December 2020 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 27 February 2021

It is proven unambiguously by archeologists, the mughal structure demolished in 1992 by hindu karsevaks, was built on top of a hindu temple that was razed to the ground by invading mughals on or around 1526. The existing basement of the structure had various hindu inscriptions and deities still intact on its pillars and walls. 71.187.21.21 (talk) 16:26, 27 February 2021 (UTC)

 Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. Pupsterlove02 talk • contribs 16:35, 27 February 2021 (UTC)
Reference no.41 can be used.
Please change, "People opposed to this theory state that such claims arose only in the 18th century, and that there is no evidence for the spot being the birthplace of Rama". to, "The Archaeological Society of India found evidence that a Hindu temple stood at the site before the Babri Masjid was built and this evidence was used by the Supreme Court of India in its verdict".
This can also be used as a reference.
Please remove, "Several other sites, including places in other parts of India, Afghanistan, and Nepal, have been proposed as birthplaces of Rama." from the lead, it is original research.
There is a section titled, "Archaeological Survey of Site", please change it to, "Archaeological Survey of India".
Kautilya3, nobody has changed the above, so please do it.
 Not done for now: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the {{edit semi-protected}} template. The content is written as per Wikipedia's WP:NPOV policy. Please familiarise yourself with it. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 07:43, 8 April 2021 (UTC)
Kautilya3, Please at least remove, "Several other sites, including places in other parts of India, Afghanistan, and Nepal, have been proposed as birthplaces of Rama." from the lead, it is original research.
There is a section titled, "Archaeological Survey of Site", please change it to, "Archaeological Survey of India".
On the first point, there is an entire section in the body called "Other places".
I will fix the apparent typo. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 16:50, 8 April 2021 (UTC),
Kautilya3, this says, Accepting the ASI's report, the Supreme Court states that the mosque was not constructed on vacant land. It observes, the pre-existing structure was large and Babri pillars prove a pre-existing structure. Pre-existing structure was not on Islamic and the artefacts collected show earlier structure was non-Islamic. Balance of probabilities suggest pre-existence of temple., so please put all that in the article in such a way that there is no copyvio
There is no mention of Rama or Janmabhoomi in that quote. All this stuff is already covered on the Babri Masjid article. It is pointless to duplicate it here. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 20:21, 9 April 2021 (UTC)

A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion

The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:

Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. —Community Tech bot (talk) 04:11, 17 August 2021 (UTC)

Article terribly biased and badly done

The article as it exists now is a disgrace to any NPOV assumptions. Further, its quite politically loaded and clearly right-wing with great gobs of pseudo-history spread quite thinly all over. I've tried righting atleast the top and put up the Factual Inaccuracy sign. Someone is welcome to try to clean the whole thing. -- Tigger69 11:46, 7 Aug 2005 (UTC)

Can you really mention the statements which you found biased? Lovegargasya (talk) 20:07, 6 April 2022 (UTC)

Why no mention of ASI's founding of temple fragments confirming a temple structure that babri was built upon.

Terribly written article. no mention of foundings are ASI survey's. It ha been proved millions of times that there was infact a Rama's temple before Babri and Babri was bulit on It after demolishing it. Yudransh (talk) 12:07, 22 November 2023 (UTC)

The third section about ASI mentions it. Also, if you feel it lacks anything, you may add it yourself. Wikipedia is a work in progress and you can always improve it. Thanks and happy editing.The Herald (Benison) (talk) 12:21, 22 November 2023 (UTC)

Reconstruction

Removed entire section. VHP propaganda does not find place on this site. The disputed temple must be treated as such atleast till the Supreme Court gives its verdict.

A suggestion: revert but change description keeping a NPOV-— Preceding unsigned comment added by 202.134.188.20 (talk) 11:36, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

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