Talk:Pasta/Archive 1

Archive 1

Archive 2

Noodle

Changed 'Two other noodles, gnocchi and spätzle, are sometimes considered pasta' to 'Gnocchi and spätzle are sometimes considered pasta'. Gnocchi is not a 'noodle'. - mog

Protein

The article states 13g of protein. That seems high. Is it per serving and if so how big is the serving size 4.142.45.70 (talk) 04:07, 12 March 2008 (UTC)reddy

I find that the Nutritional Value of Pasta section comes off as unrealistically biased, if not intentionally misleading, in favor of considering pasta to be a healthful food. For example, "There are several health benefits to consuming pasta, especially whole wheat pasta. Whole wheat are low in calories and contains considerable amounts of minerals including,..." - yet most pasta that is sold/consumed these days, as far as I can tell, is not whole wheat (I have trouble finding whole wheat pasta in the supermarket). Nutrition is very important to people these days, so I think this should be looked at. I'm no expert, however. It'd be nice to have a nutritionist revise this section. Jagerwhoodie (talk) 15:03, 17 May 2012 (UTC)

Comment 1

Well, evidence confirms that pasta was invented in China. That 2000 BCE bowl of pasta still looked edible too.

Then again, all that means is that it is the oldest found. There was older. -intranetusa

Comment 2

"pasta is a type of noodle" -- This definition seems circular, as Collins dictionary (and my gut instinct ;) says "noodles" are a type of pasta. -- Tarquin Monday, June 17, 2002

I'd love someone to fix up this noodle business. In British English 'noodle' implies just one kind of pasta-shape - one that's long and thin. Calling farfalle/fusilli/penne/ravioli etc 'noodles' is thus very odd - is this widespread usage in USA/other English-speaking nations? 87.115.228.253 20:05, 1 January 2006 (UTC)

I've a different story about the origins of the pasta. It seems that pasta comes from the south of Italy, from Sicily, as a variant of an Arab food. That was a food that nomads tribes used during their long travels around the desert because it was easy to conserve.

2-11-2004

A nice story, but not very likely, I dont think that they would cary extra water with them for cooking noodels. Noodel-s (from Latin Nodus) or Pasta(also from a latin word) where known in ancient Greece and Italy for way over 2000 Years long before Arabs set foot on Nort-African soil.--62.178.137.216 12:24, 17 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Comment 3

Is there a difference between dry and 'fresh' pasta? As in "Under Italian law, dry pasta can only be made from durum wheat semolina flour. " --Rcollman 20:33, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

The difference is actually in the water content. Dry pasta can thus be stored for a longer period without refrigeration. I will check Italian laws to see if other wheat kinds are allowed in fresh pasta, but my guess is NO. 64.56.246.18 (talk) 03:11, 29 December 2008 (UTC)

other grains are allowed only in specialty pasta - that is, the law accepts exceptions, but the ingredients have to be clearly stated on the package. 207.112.39.69 (talk) 21:15, 1 January 2009 (UTC)

Comment 4

The Italian wiki seems to have a completely different take - I'd say even more balanced because treats pasta as arising independently in many places in the Euroasian continent - which is more likely to be true, instead of just reporting this endless discussion on who exactly invented pasta.

1)Detailed descriptions of pasta (lagana) made during the early Roman Empire are contained in the books cited in ref 9 and 10 of the Italian wiki. Lagana, according to these references (Roman authors) was not fried, but baked directly in sauces. Only in the late middle ages to early renaissance pasta cooking switched to boiling. I do not understand how the same references can give rise to two different cooking methods...

2)Ref 11 (published in 1154) describes itrya as being made in Sicily and exported to other countries. Probably it was introduced by the Arabs sometime during their domination of Sicily, together with the happy mutation that gave rise to durum wheat.

64.56.246.18 (talk) 03:11, 29 December 2008 (UTC)

Vermicelli

In the article is written that Vermicelli are thinner than Spaghetti instead in Italy Spaghetti are thinner. Is it a mistake or an American different naming?

Since nobody replied I put that vermicelli are thicker than spaghetti and deleted spaghettoni and vermicelloni that are not typical kinds of pasta but a commercial invention. --Zimbricchio 08:23, 13 July 2005 (UTC)

Vermicelli are thinner then Spaghetti! The name means little worms btw. even thinner are capelli di angeli, angelshair. ;-)62.178.137.216 13:22, 25 July 2005 (UTC)

Spaghetti means little strings, but the translations don't help

ok, that means we'll write both

--Zimbricchio 18:39, 25 July 2005 (UTC)

Pasta numbers

I have recently seen in several mediterranean countries that pasta packages there are labeled with a number that indicates the pasta shape. These pasta-shape numbers appear to be a vendor-independent list. I wonder, where one can find the full list of these standard pasta numbers. Markus Kuhn 12:10, 16 October 2005 (UTC)

The numbers are not standardized. See cut number. --Macrakis 23:30, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

Die

In the line "Pasta is made either by extrusion, where the ingredients are forced through holes in a plate known as a die" there is a link to die in wikipedia but this link only goes to many different types of the word die. can this link be made more specific and is there an actual page to link to? --iceman 16:02, 11 April 2006 (UTC)

changed the die link to Die (manufacturing). And just noticed that page does not mention food. :) --Rcollman 16:52, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

Perogies

Are perogies pasta? Should they be mentioned? What about Asian forms of pasta, such as won-ton? Fishhead64 18:37, 9 May 2006 (UTC) I think you are running into the dialect difference in noodle/pasta discussed above. Chinese noodles are discussed in their own article and I would never consider them pasta. I would consider pierogi neither noodles nor pasta. Rmhermen 21:09, 9 May 2006 (UTC)

Well, they look somewhat like ravioli, but no, they shouldn't be considered pasta. You might put a meaningless line in there, like, "Ravioli can sometimes be confused with pasta," even though that's not true at all. --Knightskye 05:49, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

I know this is an old comment, but I'm both polish and Italian and I never quite looked at Perogies as pasta. I believe they are made differently, but don't quote me on that. Perhaps completely different cooking material as well? WiiAlbanyGirl 04:11, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

The recipe for Perogies is basically pie type pastry rolled out thin, wrapped around meat or cottage cheese and boiled. I guess the distinction is that pasta is usually boiled on its own and the other ingredients added later. Perogies are also often fried after boiling which makes them similar to won-tons. But apart from that, there's no real difference between Perogies shells and pasta.Ultramince (talk) 12:52, 7 September 2008 (UTC)

Marco Polo

-I was under the impression that Marco Polo brought back the idea of pasta back from China to Venice c1300? Is this completely untrue?

Completely untrue - it's a USA invention.

-What exactly are these images on an Etruscan tomb that 'prove' the existence of pasta in Italy before then?

At Cerveteri, the tomb of the Grotta Bella, IV secolo BC. I've not seen the fresco, so I can't tell whether it is reliable, but it seems to show tools used to make pasta, such as rolling pins etc...

-Is there any record of the Romans eating Pasta? I would have thought there would be plenty of Roman pasta recipes in existence, seeing as they copied most other things from the Etruscans.

Indeed there are recipes. See Apicius and Horatio. And Romans invented the arch - Etruscans didn't know it.

—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 82.5.200.56 (talk • contribs) 11:53, 3 December 2006 (UTC). Replies by 64.56.246.18 (talk) 03:52, 29 December 2008 (UTC)

American Pasta

I snipped the bit about when pasta was brought to the United States. It it's irrelevent to the history of pasta as no new development of pasta occured. It is also not the place to list when pasta arrived to various countries, are you going to list when it arrived to Japan, Estonia and Bavaria also? Otherwise the POV is Americo-centric.

If you want to include this section, and if it is indeed that interesting, I suggest a "pasta in the USA section"

Thomas Jefferson is credited with bringing the first macaroni machine to America in 1789 when he returned home after serving as ambassador to France. The first commercial pasta manufacturer in America was Antoine Zerega, a Frenchman of Italian descent who began making pasta in Brooklyn, New York City, New York, in 1848.

Dimensional dan 01:53, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

Brown Rice Pasta

I've just discovered this stuff, the only ingredient is brown rice but its somehow processed to behave exactly like traditional pasta. It seems very awkward considering it not to be a pasta, because it works best in traditional pasta dishes and it as marketed as a pasta, although a purist definition might exclude it. I think it should be mentioned in the article though. I couldn't find anything about it on wikipedia, and this is an appropriate article for it. (In case you havn't tried it and are skeptical: personally I think its better than any supermarket variety dried pastas.) Brentt 18:51, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

It's a specialty pasta made for gluten intolerant people.

64.56.246.18 (talk) 03:54, 29 December 2008 (UTC)

Should be cooked

Changed "It should always be cooked 'al dente' - with a slight bite" to "It is traditionally cooked..." 161.149.63.105 21:19, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

Pasta Machine

In the entire Wiki there seems to be no mention of the process of creating sheet or ribbon pasta with a 'pasta machine' or 'mangle', perhaps someone with more knowledge of the process could add it? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 212.159.18.197 (talk) 22:11, 5 March 2007 (UTC).

Hope this good comment has been taken care of. Somebody did a nice job of generally describing machines used to make round and flat pasta. In the Preparation section, I just added the word 'machines' to make it clearer. I think machines are types of tools, and a type of noodle can be called pasta  :) --Rcollman 19:37, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

GA pass

GA review (see here for criteria)

1. It is reasonably well written.

   a (prose): b (MoS):

2. It is factually accurate and verifiable.

   a (references): b (citations to reliable sources): c (OR):

3. It is broad in its coverage.

   a (major aspects): b (focused):

4. It follows the neutral point of view policy.

   a (fair representation): b (all significant views):

5. It is stable.

   

6. It contains images, where possible, to illustrate the topic.

   a (tagged and captioned): b lack of images (does not in itself exclude GA): c (non-free images have fair use rationales):

7. Overall:

   a Pass/Fail:

Introduction

It seems to me that the introduction is misleading and inaccurate. Here are some suggestions:

Pasta is a type of grain food made from the flour of certain grains ---> Pasta is a food made from the flour of various grains...

While the name comes from Italy-- and pasta is widely considered an Italian food--, pasta is very popular all over the world.

The English word pasta generally refers to noodles and other food products made from a flour and water paste, often including egg and salt. More frequently, the term maccheroni (macaroni in English) is used for the same products, especially when in combination with cheese. (Huh? What?)---> Pasta takes various forms, from long thin spaghetti, to smaller shapes such as bows (farfalle), tubes (penne) and shells (conchigli).

Why single out noodles and macaroni cheese? I don't understand the significance. We have also already mentioned the fact that pasta is made from flour, water and egg.

Opinions? Rednaxela 21:05, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

I've already made the nessasary corrections in this well sourced section. This will provide ample clarification without the use of pasta is widely considered an Italian food which some might consider a violation of Wikipedia:Avoid weasel words.
Phillip Rosenthal 17:41, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

Anyone speak Italian?

Anyone who speaks italian, it would be good if we could basically translate some parts from the pasta article in the Italian Wikipedia, because that article seems to have more info. Just a suggestion. Arnesh 00:58, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

Thanks, I'll try to do that once I free myself from my current commitments. Phillip Rosenthal 08:52, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

Superiority of leavened bread?

The second paragraph in the history section is just laughable in my mind. The Jewish tradition uses unleavened bread as a symbol of sinlessness, but it's not viewed as superior. Jews happily eat leavened bread times other than the Passover (otherwise they'd have none to get rid of in their Passover preparations). In Christianity, no food is viewed as better than another. Roman Catholicism has some preferences for fish (eg) on certain days, but that doesn't justify this comment. I would suggest that the whole paragraph be reconsidered and reworked. (This para written by a Protestant (ie Christian) pastor). NigelCunningham 06:05, 13 April 2007 (UTC)

In my opinion, the paragraph is true to the attributed citations and merely points out that in some traditions and circles, leavened bread is considered a socially acceptable meal complete with it's own minor place in religion as compared to greuls. The paragraph does not claim superiority in generic terms but in terms of general acceptabilty and practical social consumption. On a personal note, I can't recall the last time I tasted greuls or mushes at the house of a Jew friend; leavened bread is always found at the table. I too, would generally not offer greuls or mushes to my guests. Phillip Rosenthal 08:51, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

I'm a pressmen. That means I make pasta for a living.

Around 80,000 pounds daily to be exact. Anyways Vermicelli is Angel hair just translated. If you want a die section I can write one up for you. I was think about writing a modern pasta making section but that would take a couple of hours for me to be happy with it. Dies are made of of a bronze alloy that are carved by industrial lasers. After they are carve a Pressman assembles the die by putting in the inserts which make the minor shapes of the pasta coming out. The die is actually 2 different parts which are put together to create certain pastas. Dies come in 2 shapes either big circles or rectangles of varying sizes depending on the head it is hooking up to. These dies generally way around 400 pounds although they range from 70 pounds to 600 pounds. Dies cost from 7000 and 13000 a pair since most presses use 2 dies. Rectangle dies make long pasta like spaghetti and are generally 3 to 9 inches high, 3 to 5 feet wide and 4 to 10 inches wide. Circle dies make short pastas like orzo or elbows and are 4 to 14 inches high having a radius from 6 to 24 inches. The reason for the differing shapes is because the cutting of the pastas. Circles dies use blades that rotate pressed up against a die as the pasta shape comes out. Rectangle dies is a very hard to explain how it works. Pasta gets drapped over a beam and cut after a set amount of seconds. This beam or stick as it is called is pulled along a line which gets cut by a "trim knim" to equal all the lengths out of the strands that had been draped. We take this "trim" which is what is cut off the bottom on the long strands and we reuse it by putting it back in the mixer and it is recycled. Nothing a pasta plant is wasted unless it hits the floor and then we sell it to pigfeeders. They literally use the waste as pigfeed and then you eat the pig. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Pastatech (talk • contribs) 21:01, 22 April 2007

Very nice description of a commercial pasta operation! --Rcollman 16:46, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

Ma no, vermicelli vuol dire 'little worms' non capelli d'angelo. Now, if they're the same thing, that's a different matter. 207.228.52.221 (talk) 16:55, 5 August 2008 (UTC)Franca

Phillip Rosenthal

Phillip Rosenthal (block log) has been permanently blocked as a sockpuppet of Freedom skies (block log · checkuser^confirmed), who has a history of

• POV-pushing[2][3][4]
• citing unreliable sources[5]
• misrepresenting his sources[6][7]

The Arbitration Committee has found that Freedom skies has "repeatedly engaged in edit-warring" and placed him on revert parole.
When examining Freedom skies' edits, be mindful of the following:

• Can whatever source Freedom skies cites be considered reliable and up to date?
• Do his edits accurately reflect the content of the sources cited?
• Do his edits reflect "the prevailing view in the relevant academic community"?
• If not, do his edits give minority views undue weight?

JFD 00:41, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

0.7 pass

I have passed this article for inclusion in Wikipedia 0.7. Funpika 22:41, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

GA Sweeps (on hold)

This article has been reviewed as part of Wikipedia:WikiProject Good articles/Project quality task force in an effort to ensure all listed Good articles continue to meet the Good article criteria. In reviewing the article, I have found there are some issues that may need to be addressed.

• Provide reference to "Under Italian law, dry pasta can only be made from durum wheat semolina flour.", "Dry pasta generally contains about 12.5% moisture, which makes it shelf stable for about three years."

I will check back in no less than seven days. If progress is being made and issues are addressed, the article will remain listed as a Good article. Otherwise, it may be delisted (such a decision may be challenged through WP:GAR). If improved after it has been delisted, it may be nominated at WP:GAN. Feel free to drop a message on my talk page if you have any questions, and many thanks for all the hard work that has gone into this article thus far. Regards, OhanaUnited^{Talk page} 01:11, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

I will now delist this article from GA list as it no longer meets GA criteria.

European narrowness

The article covers pretty much only Western European, or more precisely Italian, pasta and almost completely ignores all other types of pasta. The bias is actually so bad that I believe the article deserves to be tagged with a Template:Globalize of some sort if nothing is done about the problem.

Peter ^Isotalo 13:30, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

It's like saying that an article on won-ton is too Asian-ised... Pasta is an Italian word and indicates a dried and boiled dough made out of semolina or durum wheat flour, and Italians were pretty good with their marketing. I am sure that each country has its own type of cooked dough that's served with sauces. So pierogies will have their article, and so do rice noodles.

207.112.39.69 (talk) 21:10, 1 January 2009 (UTC)

Noodles again

"Some English speakers say that pastas are a type of noodle" - this is a vague sentence, especially for the introduction to an article.

The British consider noodles to be small, thin spaghetti/vermicelli pasta and with strong Asian connotations (See Chinese noodles). To my knowledge, Americans consider 'noodle' to be synonymous with 'pasta'.

Wikipedia has the following take on noodles: "A noodle is made from unleavened dough that has been shaped into thin flat strips or round cylinders and cooked in a boiling liquid. [...] In English, noodle is a generic term for unleavened dough made from many different types of ingredients and includes a variety of shapes. While similar, pasta refers specifically to the Italian products such as spaghetti, penne, or fettuccine that contain semolina flour."

Could we not leave mention of noodles out of the intro completely for simplicity's sake?

Rednaxela 14:39, 23 October 2007 (UTC)

Americans who think noodle equals pasta are Americans who are unfamiliar with any noodle that is not pasta.  :-) --Una Smith (talk) 06:00, 7 August 2008 (UTC)

Article messed up

Somebody just recently changed the beginning of this article. Since I am not an expert and English is not my mothertongue, would somebody else please change it back! Martinahoeppner 01:03, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

History

It says "the familiar legend of Marco Polo importing pasta from China is just that—a legend."

This sounds more like an opinion rather than something that belongs in an encyclopedia. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Wiki4419 (talk • contribs) 19:34, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

Choose a language for the name of the shapes of pasta

I think macaroni should be spelled maccheroni —Preceding unsigned comment added by Zimbricchio (talk • contribs) 13:53, 25 February 2008 (UTC)

No mention of colors and flavors

Another contribution of the Italian noodle is that it comes in a variety of flavors and colors. Red, pink, green, yellow, and grey just to name a few. Spinach, beet, tomato, squid ink, potato are ingredients used. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Sir Skylynx (talk • contribs) 09:49, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

History of Pasta

artistic representations of pasta have been found in Etruscan tombs, and Romans had a similar variety of cooked dough. These are the ancestors of the modern day Italian, thus these finding should be included within the history of pasta. It is unclear which culture the noodle originated in, but it is true to say that the Italian versions of the noodle has been influential in the world. If one were to say that the earliest evidence of the noodle originates in Asia, it must also be said that the Asians adopted Italian varieties of noodle. Therefore the Wiki pages pertaining to both "noodle" and "pasta" should make reference to these factors. Currently the "Noodle" page reflects mostly Asian reference. . —Preceding unsigned comment added by Sir Skylynx (talk • contribs) 09:56, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

feces —Preceding unsigned comment added by 207.177.111.34 (talk) 01:38, 9 October 2009 (UTC)

When?

In the History section it says that Marco Polo did not bring pasta to Italy. However, it does not say when the Arabs invaded Sicily. Any help here? I'm writing a report for school and need this before tuesday.81.158.160.138 (talk) 18:48, 19 October 2008 (UTC)

Italian Spätzle

I rather doubt this: ...Two other noodles, gnocchi and spätzle, are sometimes counted as pasta because they are traditional in Italy. ... unless someone can explain to me when the Italians started using "a with diaeresis" !?! They are of alemannic origin as the German wikipedia confirms [8]. Spätzle are counted as pasta because they are made from a pasta dough and boiled like pasta. (looks like a duck, quacks like a duck = but is a German "Ente" :-) Lisa4edit (talk) 06:36, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

OK, I can explain it to you: there is a whole region of Italy (Sud Tirolo) where German is official language, and speaking it is required to be hired as a public servant. So yes, some Italians know about "a with diaeresis". They have some German traditions (mostly South German or Austrian) and therefore they also eat Spätzle. The famous Italian journalist/turned MEP Lilli Gruber is from there. BTW, there is another region where French is official language... You can find many articles on wikipedia about the various unofficial languages still spoken in parts of Italy. 128.100.227.36 (talk) 17:36, 13 January 2009 (UTC)

Modern day "tria"

In southern Italy (in the Lecce region and in some parts of Sicily) it is common to find a dish called "ciceri e tria". Some of the "tria", that is the pasta, is deep fried, part is boiled, then all is mixed with cooked chick peas. I could not find any reliable reference, which would be especially interesting given the itrya tria similarity. 207.112.62.181 (talk) 04:19, 17 January 2009 (UTC)

Vandalism and glaring error

Quote: "The Chinese were eating DOGS AND/OR CHILDREN made of millet as long ago as 0 BC." First of all, vandalism in the "dogs and/or children" part, and second, there is no such thing as 0 BC in the Gregorian or Julian calendar; should be fixed. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.13.143.164 (talk) 22:17, 12 February 2009 (UTC)

Spagetti in picture

I assume most of you guys are Italian, so it may be stating the obvious, but the image of pasta lunga for spaghetti has a joke in it (there is a piece of spago=string there). --Squidonius (talk) 16:31, 8 September 2009 (UTC)

couscous

Is couscous a pasta?

• smirks* yes.

Fix up history section - claim of a single origin

The current history section fails to distinguish that pasta does/could have numerous origins that are independent of one another. It states that pasta originates only from China, but there is no evidence of a link between millet noodles in China to modern wheat pasta in Italy e.g. ravioli. To state there is a single origin, evolution must also be proved. It is akin to concluding that association football was invented by Mayans because they kicked a ball around thousands of years before the rules were devised at Cambridge (the reality is that ball games were played everywhere, independently invented and there is no connection between the Mayan games and association football).

The history section states "What is now known as "pasta" originated in China." followed by the contradiction "The question of Pasta's origin continues to evoke speculation."

As stated by another user in 'comment 4' above, I think it would be better presented in the way that the much more thoroughly written italian language article is written (translated):

ORIGIN

Section 1 - the legend of marco polo

...

Section 2 - history

The word comes from Late Latin pasta dough (m), from the greek πάστα with meaning 'flour with sauce' that derives from the verb that pássein 'knead'. Stood since 1310 [6] although searching for the origins of pasta, called by other names, you can go back almost to the Neolithic age (about 8000 BC) when the man began the cultivation of cereal grains soon learned to grind, mix with water and dried in the sun to cook or keep them for long. Pasta is indeed a universal food of which are historical traces across the Eurasian continent. To gain particular importance in Italy and in China where he developed two lines of prestigious culinary tradition that complement each other but it remains difficult to establish the relationship because of the complexity of intermediate routes [7].

"Who was among the gluttons The inventor of macaroni There are endless disputes Neither firm is still lite ' (G. Columbro, Muses family, "in Molini of Italy, No. 4, 1984)

The oldest evidence, dating from around 4000 years ago, is given by a bowl of millet noodles unearthed in northwest China at Lajia under three feet of sediment [8]. The invention, however, China is considered independent of the West at that time because the Chinese did not know wheat characteristic of European and Arab. In truth we can find traces of pasta already among the Etruscans, Arabs, Greeks and Romans.

Clear evidence for the Etruscans made from the tomb in Cerveteri Bella's Cave, dating from the fourth century BC, where some pads are to represent the instruments still in use today for the production of homemade pasta as a pastry board and rolling pin wheel to cut.

For the world greek and Latin quotations are numerous among the classical writers, including Aristophanes and Horace [9], which use the terms làganon (greek) and laganum (Latin) to indicate a mixture of flour and water, pulled and cut stripes. These lagane, still in use today in southern Italy (which also laina), initially considered food of the poor acquire such dignity as to come in the fourth book of De re coquinaria [10] of the legendary gourmand Apicius. He describes in detail the seasonings ignoring the instructions for their preparation, implying that it was widely known.

For the Arabs, Ziryab, a musician, but also passionate gastronome of the ninth century AD, describes mixtures of water and flour paste similar to [11]. In The delight for those who want to travel the world or the Book of Roger published in 1154, Al-Idrisi, the geographer of Roger II of Sicily, describes Trabia, a village 30 km from Palermo, as an area with many mills, where they built a pasta-shaped wire called itrya (from itryah meaning "cake, cut into strips), which was shipped in vessels in abundance throughout the Mediterranean area is Muslim or Christian, giving rise to a very active trade. This is the first written on the dough which then enters the story.

Section 3 - evolution

...

Section 4 - modern times

...

Utopial (talk) 03:28, 20 October 2009 (UTC)

Shelf life of dry pasta

A recent edit changed the shelf life of dry pasta from "two years" to "four years". That claim does not seem unreasonable (I would think that shelf life can vary a lot depending on storage conditions and consumer's sophistication), but unfortunately the reference provided says "maintains its quality for two years". So, in order to claim a different period, another reference would be necessary. All the best, --Jorge Stolfi (talk) 13:01, 26 January 2010 (UTC)

What is the topic of the article?

It is not reasonable to say that pasta is Italian in the intro and then quote both Galen and the Talmud in the history section. Based on this article itself, pasta is most certainly NOT "Italian" - as the whole of the article makes clear, pasta is made and eaten in many cultures, and some of those significantly predate the Italian tradition. Pawthorn (talk) 20:53, 22 February 2008 (UTC)

Completely agree. Either state that the origin is ambiguous (and explain why) or don't mention the origin in the lead paragraph. Hamsterlopithecus (talk) 09:36, 20 April 2008 (UTC)

I think the problem is that some of the content here more properly belongs in Noodle, not Pasta. I suggest reserving Pasta for Italian noodles of the machine milled persuasion. Hence, exclude gnocci and spatzle, also noodles not typical of Italy. I am not sure what to do about those Classical Roman noodles; they sound just like Chinese noodles. --Una Smith (talk) 05:56, 7 August 2008 (UTC)

Indeed, we must decide what this article is about.
First, Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, not a dictionary, and therefore its articles are about concepts, not words. So this article cannot be just about "things that people call pasta". It must begin with a definition of the topic, and then cover everything that fits that definition, whether people call it "pasta" or not. I can think of three possibilities:

1. Dishes made of boiled, wet-baked or steamed pieces of unfermented grain dough. This "generic" definition and contains not only Italian pastas but also all Chinese and Japanese noodles, wonton, etc. The qualifiers seem necessary in order to exclude bread, pizza, Chinese buns, cornflakes, polenta, porridge, bagels, Swedish bread, rice, oats, corn grits, etc., but to include lasagnas and gyoza. Gnocchi will squeeze by because they usually contain wheat flour in addition to potatoes. "Pastas" made of buckwheat or beans may be included by an elastic definition of "grain". If we go by this definition the article would be theoroughly reorganized and much expanded.
2. Italian dishes made of boiled or wet-baked pieces of unfermented dough. This "national" definition would turn the article into a subsidiary of the Cuisine of Italy article. It will have relatively modest impact in the current contents, but the text would have to be refocused from a global perspective to a national one, namely how pasta is made/cooked/eaten in Italy. The non-Italian viewpoint would have to be relegated to a section on "the spread of Italian pasta dishes around the world".
3. Dishes made of boiled or wet-baked pieces of unfermented durum wheat dough.. This "technical" definition will pretty much restrict the topic to the "Italian" pastas, but may include a few other non-Italian European products. (Are any Asian "pasta" dishes made of durum wheat?) On the other hand, this definition will exclude some Italian pastas which are made from buckwheat or other grains.

To choose between the "national" and the "technical" definitions means to choose which class of readers is more important for us: those who want to learn about tasty dough dishes, or those who want to know more about Italian culture. All the best, --Jorge Stolfi (talk) 22:02, 4 February 2010 (UTC)

I very much agree with the premise of this comment, but not the suggested solutions. The first suggestion, Dishes made of boiled, wet-baked or steamed pieces of unfermented grain dough. duplicates the definition of noodles. The third suggestion, Dishes made of boiled or wet-baked pieces of unfermented durum wheat dough., is an attempt at restricting pastas to Italian noodles without using the word 'Italian', which seems pointless. Also, 'pizzoccheri', made of buckwheat flour, would be left out. The second definition Italian dishes made of boiled or wet-baked pieces of unfermented dough. adds a nationality element, but removes the steamed versions (and the word 'grain' for some reason). This seems the most promising, but I would make two suggestions - make them of 'Italian heritage' rather than Italian, thus including pasta that traveled with Italian migrants, thus avoiding the extra 'pastas around the world' section. Also pasta should be a subsidiary of the Noodle article, not the Cuisine of Italy one. It's quite obvious - pasta is a type of noodle, the ones of Italian heritage, existing side by side with various types of Asian noodles, pierogi, etc Gotofritz (talk) 19:49, 13 September 2011 (UTC)

Pasta introduced by Arabs?

Show the evidence stop your Islamic-Arab imperialism in here! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 121.54.68.114 (talk) 11:21, 27 February 2010 (UTC)

Language In Accompaniments

This is a minor issue, but is there a reason why the Hindi word "jeera" is used instead of "cumin"? My reasoning is that it is an English article so it might be more readily understandable to non-Hindi speakers if the English word is used. Also, the next word is the English "turmeric" and not the Hindi "haldi" so it isn't consistant. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.224.209.233 (talk) 00:08, 4 April 2010 (UTC)

Agreed, and changed.Dbrukman (talk) 01:03, 13 August 2011 (UTC)

pasta is lush —Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.219.230.110 (talk) 09:33, 14 April 2010 (UTC)

Intro again, and different pasta types...

I know it has been bought up previously, but I'd like to mention that pasta is also made from other flours, such as Barley and Chestnut and others, and also, Pasta all'uovo generally just contains Egg and Flour - often 1 egg per 100g of ( '00' ) Flour. (At least in our house it does, and relations' and all the recipe books I've ever seen...). Also, spinach or tomato can be mixed into the pasta mixture...(I see that has been previously mentioned here). -- J.P.Lon (talk) 12:04, 18 July 2010 (UTC)

Same for the obscure mention of Swedish 'köttfärssås', which is nothing less than Bolognese sauce and hardly remarkable at all. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 194.255.43.133 (talk) 10:04, 19 May 2011 (UTC)

Did the Romans have pasta?

I've found many references online of utensils found in the ruins of Pompeii that are believed by archaeologists to have been used to make pasta but none of the references are sourced and may not be authoritative. There are also unsourced claims of depictions of pasta in murals in Etruscan tombs. If anyone has better information it would make a great addition to the article. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 209.237.150.158 (talk) 02:22, 13 October 2010 (UTC)

I am sure most Romans didn't eat pasta, albeit some people ate pasta then, even though being generally overshadowed by the demand of bread and meats. Learned from my father. He's from Naples :D —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.195.154.193 (talk) 03:50, 20 April 2011 (UTC)

Spätzle

Gnocchi and spätzle are sometimes considered pasta; they are both traditional in parts of Italy Spätzle belong to Swabia, Germany. They have nothing to do with Italy at all. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.22.146.3 (talk) 04:42, 17 January 2011 (UTC)

Nutritional value chart

I've removed the unsourced nutritional value box from the article. In addition to being unsourced, there is no indication that it applies to the multitude of different preparations of pasta . Given the spectrum of preparation, it is clear that it does not apply to all pasta. If someone wants to restore it, please provide proof that it applies to all pasta and does not vary, along with a citation. Toddst1 (talk) 05:10, 29 July 2011 (UTC)

Pasta is a type of noodle of Italian heritage. Asian noodles references do not belong here.

As explained in What is the topic of the article, it seems obvious that pasta is a type of noodle of Italian heritage. Asian noodles are something different, and reference to them belong in a different article. Therefore I have removed them from this article. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Gotofritz (talk • contribs) 20:00, 13 September 2011 (UTC)

Revisions

I rewrote much of the initial introductory section, adding a number of references. In particular, I changed the identification of pasta as a "staple food". Pasta is a processed food, and is not wholly consistent with Staple food. Plan to work next on ingredients as there are several statements that are just plain wrong. With that I will probably plan to move what is presently the last paragraph of the intial section about enrichment to the ingredients section. TXEB (talk) 16:34, 21 March 2012 (UTC)

Umh no. Plain pasta is a staple food just as plain bread is.TMCk (talk) 17:42, 21 March 2012 (UTC)

Respectfully, disagree. "A staple food is one that is eaten regularly and in such quantities that it constitutes a dominant portion of a diet, and that supplies a high proportion of energy and nutrient needs." For the average Italian, pasta consumption makes up less than 8% of the average daily caloric consumption (28 kg of pasta per person per year out of an average daily caloric consumption of ~ 3600 Cal).TXEB (talk) 18:12, 21 March 2012 (UTC)

Agree with TMCk here. While there is some "processing" involved in making pasta (as there is with many grain products), it's not a processed food in the sense of how most people conceive a processed food. See this Google search for many examples suggesting that pasta is thought of a staple food. OhNoitsJamie ^Talk 19:48, 21 March 2012 (UTC)

"The term "processed food" means any food other than a raw agricultural commodity and includes any raw agricultural commodity that has been subject to processing, such as canning, cooking, freezing, dehydration, or milling." United States Federal Food, Drug and Cosmetic Act, Section 201, (gg) TXEB (talk) 00:18, 22 March 2012 (UTC)

All definitions are "For the purposes of this Act" thus they don't have to reflect any common meaning.TMCk (talk) 01:10, 22 March 2012 (UTC)

The Federal Food, Drug, and Cosmetic Act is the one that gave the FDA the authority to oversee the safety of food, drugs and cosmetics. As such it seems reasonable to me that the definitions that are part of that very broad act are "common" in their meaning and use within the United States. TXEB (talk) 01:31, 22 March 2012 (UTC)

Well yes, but then again, they call pasteurized milk a staple food.TMCk (talk) 01:42, 22 March 2012 (UTC)
BTW, in southern Germany, (Bavaria), they have beer on their official list of staples :) TMCk (talk) 02:03, 22 March 2012 (UTC)

I like the way they think. TXEB (talk) 02:31, 22 March 2012 (UTC)

Indeed they do, in a position paper where terms may be used loosely. The USDA, which functions largely as an enforcement arm for the FDA, frequently uses the term "staple food" to mean any major food product. The heart of the question is how to define staple food consistent with encyclopedic authority. Personally, I agree with the FAO's characterization. If that is not appropriate then that WP article needs some serious attention. For now I will accept that I am of a minority view, and our discussion has been captured should the question arise in the future. I am, however, left scratching my head as to when a food becomes a staple and how is it determined or measured ? TXEB (talk) 02:01, 22 March 2012 (UTC)

Quoting the wp article on staple food, you left out the following sentence "Most people live on a diet based on at most a small number of staples" and applied your own interpretation (of what is actually not a reliable source) and added some wp:OR by doing the math. BTW, Italy has by far the highest pasta consumption per capita in the world. Also see here and here and from the National Pasta Association here.TMCk (talk) 20:11, 21 March 2012 (UTC)

Actually I was trying not to interpret the article but take it at face value. The source of the defintion seems pretty reliable to me (FAO of the UN). As I read the article on Staple food, I took the staple part to be the "crop", not the derivative products (potatoes can be a staple, but not mashed potatoes; rice yes, but not fried rice, wheat yes, but not pasta). Maybe it's semantics - staple food no, but staple food product yes. If you drill down on the Italian diet composition, by far the major calorie contributor is wheat, at about 33% of average daily caloric intake (~ 1200 calories/day from wheat based products). Given that I take wheat to be a staple in Italy, which is converted (processed) into many foods. In Italian wheat products, white bread outpaces pasta by about 2:1 in caloric consumption. To my thinking, perhaps narrow, pasta is not a staple food but is a processed or manufactured food from an Italian staple food (to the extent it is made from wheat). Yes Italy has by far the highest per capita consumption of pasta (at 26-28 kg per person per year, depending upon source and recency of data). But that does not make it a staple - just a fairly common food. Just to be complete, here's another sourcefor pasta consumption in Europe. I will leave it as is as there are at least two voices who say staple food to my one in disagreement.TXEB (talk) 21:47, 21 March 2012 (UTC)

BBC call it staple food too. "So how did the dish so closely associated with Italy become a staple of so many tables around the globe?" and "It's become a staple of children's diets" http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-13760559 And "Tim Lang, professor of food policy at City University London, says technological advances in the 19th Century allowed pasta to be produced on a big scale. But the Industrial Revolution did that for everything else, he adds, and the reason pasta had been particularly successful was because people liked it and the Italian way of life.

"It's a cultural phenomenon, not an industrial phenomenon," he says. "People like the Italian way of life and their simple, staple foods" too. Cited in the same aticle. I guess that a professor of food policy should know the diference. --Dia^ (talk) 23:05, 23 March 2012 (UTC)

Error in edit comment March 24, 2012 - Corrected

In my edit made 19:57, 24 March 2012 I hastily typed: "Folic acid is requirted of all pasta; enriched is optional, but if labeled has specific requirements. Enriched becase customary in the late 30's / early 80's as a result of purchasing practuces. Ref to CFR added as well"

It should have read (corrected text italicized): Folic acid is required of all pasta; enriched is optional, but if labeled has specific requirements. Enriched became customary in the late 30's / early 40's as a result of purchasing practices. Ref to CFR added as well --TXEB (talk) 20:34, 24 March 2012 (UTC)

Varieties

Q: Is there any need for the section Varieties, when there is already a more complete article List of pasta, which is even referenced in the top line of the Varieties section? Shouldn't this section be eliminated ? --TXEB (talk) 00:21, 25 March 2012 (UTC)

The way we usually do it is to summaries, or in this case give some examples and link to an article that covers the topic. I think some prose along with what is actually a nice and complete image gallery could add to the section.TMCk (talk) 01:27, 25 March 2012 (UTC)

Folic acid

The statement "As of 1998 an FDA regulation requires that all dried pastas sold in the US must contain folic acid." is not supported by the two references given. In the first one from the FDA, inserted by the editor that added the disputed sentence, are mentioned "§ 139.110 - Macaroni products" where folic acid is not added (here "macaroni" is used as synonym for "pasta"). Folic acid must be present in the "§ 139.115 - Enriched macaroni products".--Dia^ (talk) 10:08, 25 March 2012 (UTC)

Quick remark as I don't have time to check the sources. There is non-enriched pasta produced and sold that doesn't contain folic acid. I made some OR and checked my pantry.TMCk (talk) 14:28, 25 March 2012 (UTC)

Are you sure it doesn't contain folic acid? Not appearing as an ingredient doesn't mean doesn't contain (e.g. whole wheat pasta).

I only gave back what was written on the labels of different kind of (U.S.) pastas. Their folic acid content depends therefore on the ingredients used.TMCk (talk) 16:38, 25 March 2012 (UTC)

I just checked the US Barilla website and no, their traditional pasta do not have folic acid. Their "Plus" line has folate listed. For your infos click on "nutrition" here and here. I remove the disputed paragraph as original research. --Dia^ (talk) 16:55, 25 March 2012 (UTC)

Folate is the same as folic acid only that the former is the form naturally occurring in your body.TMCk (talk) 19:17, 25 March 2012 (UTC)

I think you must have misread something on the Barilla site. Using your first link (here) and hitting the nutrition link, I find Folate 30% (bottom right). Under products, if I hit Classic Blue Box, select about any of them like Fettucine here, then click on the Nutrition box, I again see Folate 30%, along with Thiami 35%, Riboflavin 15%, Niacin 15%, and Iron 10%. Every box of Barilla pasta I have seen is labeled "Enriched Macaroni Product".--TXEB (talk) 19:22, 25 March 2012 (UTC)

Okay, maybe this isn't the best source, but it's the best I can come up with in a short period ... Walmart sells Barilla products, and provides both product ingredients and nutrition information for the products they sell (Barilla only provides Nutrition via their website, not ingredients). So, go to Wal-Mart website, search Grocery for Barilla (here), pick a pasta, click on the "See Product Details" button, on the next page scroll down to Ingredients. For Classic blue box products, I get lists of ingredients like the following: Lasagne: Semolina, Durum Flour, Eggs, Niacin, Iron (Ferrous Lactate), Thiamine Mononitrate, Riboflavin, Folic Acid. Contains Wheat And Egg; Cut spaghetti: Semolina (Wheat), Durum Flour, Niacin, Iron (Ferrous Sulfate), Thiamine Mononitrate, Riboflavin, Folic Acid. For Plus products I get something like the following: Angel Hair: Semolina, Grain And Legume Four Blend (Lentils, Chickpeas, Egg Whites, Spelt, Barley, Flaxseed, Oat Fiber, Oats), Durum Flour, Niacin, Iron (Ferrous Sulfate), Thiamine Mononitrate, Riboflavin, Folic Acid. Contains Wheat And Egg Ingredients. For Whole Grain I get the following, Rotini: Whole Grain Durum Wheat Flour, Semolina (Wheat), Durum Wheat Flour, Oat Fiber. Contains Wheat Ingredients. This Product Is Manufactured On Equipment That Processes Products Containing Eggs. My observations: Classic blue box products and Plus products are enriched macaroni products per FDA; Whole Grain products are not enriched, and not labeled as such.--TXEB (talk) 20:20, 25 March 2012 (UTC)

I rewrote the section -- the wording was akward and misleading, but now should better reflect the relationship between FDA regs that set standards, other regs (States) that mandate requirements, and purchasing requirements that drive the demand for enriched pasta products. The intial FDA reg only sets a standard, not a requirement; states set their own regs whihc can madate enrichment (ref is to CT ); purchasers sepcify their preference. --TXEB (talk) 15:39, 25 March 2012 (UTC)

That one state (I haven't checked the provided references yet) out of 51 prescribe something is hardly relevant for the whole US. For schools and army is much cheaper to provide chemically enriched pasta, than a plate of sautéed spinach.--Dia^ (talk) 16:55, 25 March 2012 (UTC)

Plese see section Connecticut or States below. As far as what is cheaper, I have no idea and not sure what that has to do with the fact that US DoD requires enriched for their refined grain product purchases (and they buy a lot of food). I provided what I felt was a reliable referecne, the specs as written by the USDA for DoD. Oh, and BTW, it 50 states, not 51. --TXEB (talk) 00:56, 26 March 2012 (UTC)

Checking the references...

I'm just checking the new referenced provided and, again, what has been written is not what is in the provided references. At the moment I'm controlling the assertion that the national school lunch program makes the use of enriched pasta compulsory. The text actually says: "(i) Enriched macaroni. Enriched macaroni with fortified protein as defined in appendix A to this part may be used to meet part of the meat/meat alternate requirement when used as specified in appendix A to this part. An enriched macaroni product with fortified protein as defined in appendix A to this part may be used to meet part of the meat/meat alternate component or the grains/breads component but not as both food components in the same lunch." Please, do read the references before editing the article. It would save time. --Dia^ (talk) 17:27, 25 March 2012 (UTC)

I did, and not to be rude, would suggest you do the same.--TXEB (talk) 00:53, 26 March 2012 (UTC)

I just check the reference provided for the assertion that the USDA "requires that all pasta products be either enriched if made from refined flours or whole-grain". The provided reference just states which characteristics these products must have to be purchased for the troops. Making mistakes is just human, but that is the third reference I check from the same editor, in two days that is not correct and I have to say I start to get a bit annoyed. --Dia^ (talk) 17:44, 25 March 2012 (UTC)

The references provided for school nutrition programs was broadly for the Acts (at the head level). What you cited was Apendix A which deals with meat alternatives. Rather than that I suggest you consider section 210.10, Nutrition standards and menu planning approaches for lunches and requirements for afterschool snacks, under which you will find the following:

(k)(5) (k) (5) Requirements for the grains/breads component —(i) Enriched or whole grains. All grains/breads must be enriched or whole grain or made with enriched or whole grain meal or flour.

Pasta / macaroni fall under grains/breads --TXEB (talk) 18:01, 25 March 2012 (UTC)--TXEB (talk) 18:01, 25 March 2012 (UTC)

Just to be complete, see Food Buying Guide for Child Nutrition Programs

Foods that qualify as grains/breads in the Child Nutrition Programs are enriched or whole-grain, or are made from enriched or whole-grain meal and/or flour. Bran and germ are credited the same as enriched or whole-grain meal or flour. Such foods include, but are not limited to . . .

Macaroni or noodle products (cooked) made with enriched or whole-grain flour. Program regulations for the NSLP and the SFSP allow enriched macaroni products that have been fortified with protein to be counted to meet either a grains/breads or meat/meat alternate requirement, but not as both components in the same meal. --TXEB (talk) 18:23, 25 March 2012 (UTC)

Connecticut or States

One editor changed prior text from indicating that multiple States had madated that grain products be enriched to just CT. This was done, I suspect, on the basis that a only single reference to that of CT legislative history was cited (not those of mutiple States). The cited reference was from the Connecticut Office of Legislative Research (a non-partisan arm of the CT General Assembly). Within that report the following is stated, "The law was adopted in 1972 to require designated grain products to be enriched. It establishes enrichment standards that are the same as those in federal law, as amended from time to time. The law is not mandated by federal law. It is a state mandate based on a federal standard contained in regulations. According to the legislative transcript, Connecticut joined from 38 to 40 other states when it decided to adopt the federal standards." To be correct, the only reference supplied was from CT, but I would view that official Office to be reliable, and would accept their statement that they joined 38-40 other states in turning the federal (FDA) standards into State mandate as adequate. The only alternative I can think of is to go search and find the specific and pertinent food laws for each State, which is a daunting task I am not willing to undertake. If someone wants to have it for completeness, please do and add each reference as you identify it.--TXEB (talk) 18:45, 25 March 2012 (UTC)

Noted added:Here is the actual CT statute that states under paragraph (e), "Macaroni. It shall be unlawful for any person to manufacture, mix, compound, sell or offer for sale in this state for human consumption any macaroni unless such macaroni is enriched, before retail sale, in conformance with federal standards enumerated in 21 Code of Federal Regulations Part 139, as may be amended from time to time and unless such person provides evidence of compliance as required by regulations issued by the commissioner under the provisions of chapter 54."

Further, a very quick google search using the collective terms statute food enrichment requirements returned comparable state stautes for FL (see sections 500.3xx), UT and OR (see SECTION 3. ORS 616.785).

That's as far as I am going.--TXEB (talk) 00:54, 26 March 2012 (UTC)

Ingredients - U.S. regulations

Just redid the Ingredients section under U.S. regulations,and in doing so tried to adhere to the format established under Italian regulations, and simultaneously address concerns/issues voiced by other editors.--TXEB (talk) 16:22, 26 March 2012 (UTC)

--TXEB (talk) 15:05, 28 March 2012 (UTC)--TXEB (talk) 15:05, 28 March 2012 (UTC)

Question - Uses of Pasta ?

As noted in the first two sentences pasta is both a food product (maybe it should be restated as an intermediate food product), and a culinary category (dishes that use pasta products as an ingredient). Currently, there is the section Ingredients that addresses only pasta as an intermediate product. There is also a section on Accompaniments and another on International adpatations that focus on the use of pasta in the culinary category. However, accompaniments is really only appropraite for pasta ascuitta, and not two of the other principle uses of pasta (baked/al forno or soup/in brodo). I was thinking that the Accompaniments section should be retitled something like Pasta as a Culinary Category, with more balance than just sauces for pasta ascuitta. Is this wayawrd thinking ? If so, then why is there a distinct Accompaniments section and nothing about the other two main uses of pasta as an ingredient? Should the article be just about pasta the intermediate food product, or should it address both meanings of the term pasta ? --TXEB (talk) 01:13, 28 March 2012 (UTC)

An alternative could be to change Accompniments to something like Culinary uses of pasta, address the three classes of pasta applications, and forego the ambiguity in the term pasta. --TXEB (talk) 01:17, 28 March 2012 (UTC)

How about simply "Accompaniments and other uses"? I see no need to separate pasta dishes because of minor differences in how they're prepared.TMCk (talk) 02:17, 28 March 2012 (UTC)

If I understand, your view is that the article is really about the intermediate. If that's correct then I would suggest just Uses (drop Accompaniments), and further eliminate the reference to the use of the term as a culinary category of prepared dishes in the second sentance.--TXEB (talk) 03:33, 28 March 2012 (UTC)

I'm not sure which second sentence you're referring to but on second thoughts, replacing "Accompaniments" with "Culinary uses" as you suggested seems to be the better choice. Otherwise the section can pretty much stand as is with some additions like adding information about backed pasta and pasta as soup ingredients. Is that the direction you intended to go or would you be conform with this approach? And to answer your question, my view is that the article is mainly about pasta itself but their culinary use needs to be included.TMCk (talk) 12:59, 28 March 2012 (UTC)

Argh. I just woke up and got which "sentence" you're referring to. So nevermind to explain and my post above makes my standpoint on this clear (I think) ;) TMCk (talk) 13:05, 28 March 2012 (UTC)

Maybe take a look at Noodle and Spätzle, two similar foods, to see how dishes are incorporated in the article.TMCk (talk) 13:14, 28 March 2012 (UTC)

I think I am largely with you. In both Noodle and Spätzle the uses appear in sections titled Dishes, which is appropriate, as would be Uses. I am not sure that pasta is really any different other than the name of the ingredient is also widely used as a culinary category (as in about any decent general cookbook on Italian cusine will include). Along those lines the two changes I suggest are eliminating the second sentance in the opening section completely and merge what is now the second paragraph with the lead sentance; and retitle the Accompaniments section to Uses or Dishes, which opens the door for a balanced description of the three categories for the application of pasta. Perhaps we differ in how signiificant we view the differences in those preparations. I don't see the differences between ascuitta, in brodo and al forno as minor, and as a result see Accompaniments as narrow and slanted towrds ascuita.

BTW - Spätzle is also a traditional Italian pasta known as spätzli in South Tyrol and in as menedici in Valtellina, and are considered a gnocchetti.--TXEB (talk) 14:11, 28 March 2012 (UTC)

The lead is a summary of the article, thus the reference to pasta as dish should stay. As for the rest I think we're in agreement.TMCk (talk) 14:42, 28 March 2012 (UTC)
I thought so about South Tirol but didn't know they have a different name.TMCk (talk) 14:42, 28 March 2012 (UTC)

The uses are, as a category, dealt with in the final paragraph in the lead, and suggest stay as is, but the second sentance is out of place with the focus on pasta the intermediate.
South Tyrol makes sense given its strong German heritage - use is much the same as in southern Germany and Switerland. But in Valtellina the use is much different - typically served in hot milk as a soup. --TXEB (talk) 15:05, 28 March 2012 (UTC)

Frankly, I don't understand why you would want to exclude a common usage of the term "pasta".TMCk (talk) 15:37, 28 March 2012 (UTC)
In milk? Sweet or salty? Either way sounds strange to me but maybe I should give it a try next time I make spaetzle :)TMCk (talk) 15:37, 28 March 2012 (UTC)

Maybe it's a pesonal thing, but to me it is a source of ambiguity. I can't think of many culinary ingredients that also are used as a collective categorical term for finished dishes. If the article is to be about the ingredient and its uses, that is clear (which can summarize the category as uses). But if the article is to encompass both the ingredient and the category as topics,treating each with equal respect, then the language needs to be specific (e.g., Ingredients or Regulations - which pasta is it ), and treatment of the category would probably become more expansive than as a summary under Uses (it can or could be a very big topic of its own), and perhaps revert to including international rather than separated as it is currently. Personally, I prefer that the article be about pasta as the ingredient with a section on uses.
Got buckwheat flour ? Can also serve in a meat broth. Menedici da Sondalo in Valtellina --TXEB (talk) 16:28, 28 March 2012 (UTC)

Try to see it this way: Nobody would say "let's go to Joe's and have some rice" but likely they would say "let's go to Marco's and have some pasta." See the difference? And no, the article doesn't have to give equal weight to dishes, just a good overview. Single dishes have their own article and are listed in the List of pasta.TMCk (talk) 18:51, 28 March 2012 (UTC)
Spaetzle soup I had plenty :) TMCk (talk) 18:51, 28 March 2012 (UTC)

That was exactly my point. For pasta there is an ambiguity in what it means. Eggs is another one. To avoid confusion within an encyclopedic article, avoid using the "other" term; it doesn't need to be a dictionary.
None for me--TXEB (talk) 19:48, 28 March 2012 (UTC)

I don't know if you're quoting a guideline or policy (you gave no link) but here is one that would apply to the subject of discussion, namely the introduction: It should establish the context in which the topic is being considered by supplying the set of circumstances or facts that surround it.TMCk (talk) 20:33, 28 March 2012 (UTC)

I just edited the lead section to remove the second sentance, and changed Accompaniments to Uses as two separate edits. If unacceptable it is easily undone, but I think it helps maintain the intended focus for what follows.--TXEB (talk) 20:08, 28 March 2012 (UTC)

Usually it's better not to make an edit that is still under discussion. That's how edit wars start. But I won't revert for now and see if we get a third opinion of some kind (reverting or commenting.)TMCk (talk) 20:33, 28 March 2012 (UTC)

Understood. I have no intention of warring over this, and I felt your previous point about the intorduction establishing the context was well handled, with the categorical aspect dealt with in the last paragraph. I will readily respect a different view, suspecting I have flogged this horse well enough.--TXEB (talk) 00:47, 29 March 2012 (UTC)
Question - Are there non-culinary uses of pasta ?--TXEB (talk) 00:50, 29 March 2012 (UTC)

Sure there are. I.e. Arts and crafts. Try google and you'd be astound what uses people find for pasta.TMCk (talk) 01:15, 29 March 2012 (UTC)

Yep, my kids have done that; the dried stuff in the right form makes great cat toys too (drives 'em crazy). I was thinking more along the lines of the diversity of uses for soybean oil - food, coatings, formualtion ingredient for pesticides, etc. --TXEB (talk) 01:50, 29 March 2012 (UTC)

And please click on the above link b/c you misunderstood. It is about the opening paragraph.TMCk (talk) 01:20, 29 March 2012 (UTC)

I did read that, and it seems to me even more so that the intro is better without the second sentence, if the focus of the article is pasta as a food ingredient vs. pasta a culinary category using the ingredient. As it was, the second sentence in the first paragraph created an ambiguous focus. As it now stands I read ot that the article is about pasta the ingredient, and layer see a synopsis of uses.--TXEB (talk) 01:50, 29 March 2012 (UTC)

After some cerebral fermentation, I think I might be getting a better grasp on the point you have been making. Trying to work my way through this and bring us closer to a resolve on how to proceed, I offer the following:

I believe we agree that:

• the subject of the article is pasta the food ingredient, and not the broad dishes as a broad culinary category.
• the culinary uses of pasta should be fairly treated within the article.

To that end I would like to suggest for the first paragraph two sentences something similar to,
Pasta is a staple food[1] of traditional Italian cuisine with a history dating to at least the middle ages. Most typically pasta is made from an unleavened dough of a durum wheat flour mixed with water, formed into sheets or various shapes, then cooked and served in a diverse collection of dishes.

The balance of the lead section should summarize the important points to be covered. Suggesting they include: Origins/history; Ingredients/varieties/regulations; Culinary uses. Most of the information is there, but some reorganizing/editing is probably in order.--TXEB (talk) 14:05, 29 March 2012 (UTC)

Reliable Sources ?

A recent edit added significant content to the article, but in doing so appears to have drawn information from a number of sources with questionalbe reliability, that may not be consistent with WP:RS. I hope someone with more experience than me will take a look at these and offer their view and advice. Here are the ones that concern me -- numbers are as they appeared in the references section after the edit (no further edits), and as such are subject to change.
23., 26., & 27 Demetri, Justin. "History of pasta". lifeinitaly. http://www.lifeinitaly.com/food/pasta-history.asp. Retrieved 24 March 2012
24. "The History of Pasta: It's not what you think!". Pasta Recipes by Italians. http://www.pasta-recipes-by-italians.com/history-of-pasta.html. Retrieved 26 March 2012.
25. "The History of Pasta in the Italian Kitchen". http://pastarito.info/. Retrieved 26 March 2012.
28. Tracey, Michael. "The Origin and History of Pasta where Pasta comes from". http://africhef.com/Pasta/. Retrieved 28 March 2012.
30. & 34. Christensen, Emma. "Dry Pasta vs. Fresh Pasta: What's the Difference?". The Kitchn. http://www.thekitchn.com/dry-pasta-vs-fresh-pasta-whats-47888. Retrieved 28 March 2012
32., 33., & 36. Laux, Sandra. "Types of Pasta". Mangia Bene Pasta. http://www.mangiabenepasta.com/types.html. Retrieved 28 March 2012.
--TXEB (talk) 15:40, 30 March 2012 (UTC)

Holiday

"... national Holiday in Italy."
Having fun? Testing? --TXEB (talk) 13:45, 2 April 2012 (UTC)

Pasta in China

they have found spaghetti dating 2000 b.c. in China, so you can stop saying that it was invented in Italy because i even doubt italy was inhabited in 2000 b.c.Say the truth for instance. I give you the citation: http://www.albanesi.it/dietaitaliana/BLU/Articoli/spaghetti.htm — Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.6.152.125 (talk) 01:02, 11 April 2012 (UTC)

Noodles aren't pasta, and Pasta isn't just spaghetti.--Rb1205 (talk) 11:16, 30 April 2012 (UTC)

The article is more about pasta (in its modern form) in Europe. I'm sure China played a part in its development, but the article takes a more ecumenical approach in its narrartive. Pasta is just a form of noodle, but it's not made quite the same.Satanstorm (talk) 20:24, 21 August 2012 (UTC)

Salt in dough

The article says:

Salt is added to the dough and is kneaded until it is smooth and dry.

I got a pasta machine and the dough preparation in its manual says: "Do not add any salt!"

I see a bit of a contradiction here. Are there any authoritative sources that say whether salt should or should not be added to the dough? Of course, it's possible that there are different schools, but all opinions should be mentioned. --Amir E. Aharoni (talk) 09:22, 5 August 2012 (UTC)

I will tell my experience, albeit I think it won't be very helpful. In Brazil, all pasta I've eaten during all of my life was saltless by standard (yes, I read labels). I called my grandmother by phone, who lived in a rural environment for most of her childhood and adolescence, and she said that homemade dough in the settlements she lived was without salt. As far her memory goes back, she told me, it was not prohibitive in minimal quantities, but the tradition was to use it just in the boiling water and the sauce. Nowadays we still add a bit of salt to the water to be boiled (as well a fair quantity to the sauce), because if we don't, industrial pasta becomes completely tasteless. This is obvious because businesses are concerned with how many people will buy their products, so that people with celiac diseases, for example, are plenty of options of rice pasta in most urban environments (way more common than, to say, 15 years ago), our standard soy sauce is gluten-free unlike in Japan, etc. thus, since adding salt to the dough would be a problem to those with cardiovascular disorders, a firm would be likely to get a bad reputation if the standard choice was not the "inclusive" one – that is unrelated to if it is traditional or not, more of marketing strategy. Lguipontes (talk) 20:57, 28 August 2012 (UTC)

I don't think so. In the US pasta with and w/o salt is sold, depending on the type of pasta. Just go to the Barilla site and check their products.TMCk (talk) 21:27, 28 August 2012 (UTC)

I just told my experience, and added a reason of why it would be this way here (is my English still hard to understand? :-/). I am not used to American products as I've never lived outside the state of Rio de Janeiro, and most of my friends are from the 4 regions of my country except the quite unpopulated North (Amazon Basin)... Nevertheless, I used to talk a lot about food with someone who lived in Acre and Tocantins. Just saying that in Brazil, pasta commonly sold with salt is pre-made (i.e. those you store in a refrigerator instead of just a cupboard) gnocchi, ravioli, capeletti, etc. If it is otherwise dry or without filling, then it is uncommon to the point I find it unheard of. Well, you can check "Piraquê". Lguipontes (talk) 23:52, 28 August 2012 (UTC)

I didn't meant to offend, just share a basic fact. And your English is just fine, better than o meu portuguese ;)TMCk (talk) 13:18, 29 August 2012 (UTC)

I wasn't offended, just confused. I thought that my often bad foreign language skills caused misunderstanding, I was not complaining. Oh, and thank you. ^^ Lguipontes (talk) 20:50, 29 August 2012 (UTC)

Most manufactured dried pasta contains no salt, because in the 10 - 15 minutes it takes to cook it in boiling salted water it has time to absorb salt to make the pasta more palatable. Freshly made pasta takes barely 2 - 3 minutes to cook in boiling salted water and does not have the same opportunity to absorb salt into the product; hence some recipes for fresh pasta include salt in the recipe. I have made fresh egg pasta both with and without salt added and the salt-added version is easily my preferred choice.AirdishStraus (talk) 07:25, 29 August 2012 (UTC)

Edit request

Requesting page to be unprotected to do basic copyediting for editing class project.

Please use the {{admin help}} template to notify an administrator as this is the job of an administrator. Also, next time when posting on a talk page, please sign your name by placing ~~~~ after your post. Camyoung54 talk 21:09, 25 February 2013 (UTC)

Nothing about allergies? or other bad reactions?

It would be helpful, for any food, to discuss these issues. 173.66.211.53 (talk) 21:06, 13 May 2013 (UTC)

Since allergies related to past is not directly related to pasta but maybe to some ingredients and not a major allergy trigger that would be of topic. We don't give medical advise so if someone has an allergy related to pasta he is either already aware of it or should consult a professional. Almost every type of food ingredients can trigger an allergic response.TMCk (talk) 23:51, 13 May 2013 (UTC)

{{Noodle}} and {{Pasta}} navbox

Merge request here. Templates {{Pasta}} and {{Chinese noodles}} have been proposed to be merged into {{Noodle}}. --Cold Season (talk) 05:11, 23 September 2013 (UTC)

Black ravioli

I had black ravioli for the first time last night. What makes it black? Someone suggested squid ink. Evertype 12:10, 2005 Mar 20 (UTC)

Usually it`s coloured with Sepia-ink the same ink that is used in Asia for traditionell painting and calligraphy.62.178.137.216 17:18, 1 May 2005 (UTC)

---

don't know if the wiki was lifted from this site or the site was lifted from the wiki... but someone's plagiarizing: www.nationmaster.com/encyclopedia/Pasta ( - unsigned)

They've copied from here. They're allowed to do that: it's not plagiarism because they provide a link back to the original article, as required by the GFDL (though it's very, very, very, ver tiny), and they don't present the work as their own. - Nunh-huh 00:36, 19 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Well pasta is made with cheese so it was probably moldy cheese.

Glycemic index comments removal

I have removed the section that described pasta as having a "low GI" (low glycemic index).

Firstly, what constitutes "low" is a matter of opinion, not fact.

Secondly, the source for this statement was from the "National Pasta Association", a clearly POV source.

Thirdly, the source itself does not appear to mention the glycemic index of pasta at all.

The glycemic index of pasta according to one study is 42.8, vs. 42.8 for basmati rice and 49.4 for American rice. I don't think this qualifies for the unambiguous label "low"

129.215.5.255 (talk) 18:02, 5 November 2013 (UTC)

removed uncited nutrition claims

I have removed the following text:

"In addition, an equivalent amount of whole and white grains are recommended for a complete and healthy diet with essential vitamins, minerals, and nutrients. Pasta is normally eaten with other foods rich in nutrients. Fiber for example, can be found in vegetables, beans, fish, tomato sauce, cheese, and meats such as poultry and lean ground beef."

The claim about whole vs. white grains is uncited.

As for the other claims, I find it extremely questionable that the benefits of foods "normally" eaten with pasta can be included as health benefits of pasta itself. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 129.215.5.255 (talk) 18:12, 5 November 2013 (UTC)

Article is hopelessly incorrect: pasta has only been popular since about 1950

This article is very bad, and gives a completely incorrect idea about Pasta. Pasta is an extremely NEW foodstuff - indeed pasta is almost certainly the single greatest example of the incredible changes in the way of eating since the industrial revolution.

Pasta was completely unheard of, except as a rare treat for the richest elite, until about 1900. It was simply not possible to manufacture pasta in large quantities until then.

Before WW2 a few people ate it on feast days. The incredible popularity of pasta happened only since 1950; it is a completely new phenomenon. -- much like say "rock music" or "television"

For example ....... (I paste text here....)

Research by both Kasper[3] and Zanini De Vita[5] indicates while ragùs with pasta gained popularity through the 19th century, they were largely eaten by the wealthy until the industrial revolution made flour for pasta more affordable for the less affluent in the very late 19th century. The adoption of pasta by the common classes further expanded in the period of economic prosperity that followed the end of World War II. Zanini De Vita notes that prior to World War II, 80% of the Italian rural population ate a diet based on plants; pasta was reserved for special feast days and was then often served in a legume soup.

Jump up ^ http://www.accademiaitalianacucina.it/index.php , searched March 01, 2012 Jump up ^ Accademia Italiana della Cuisine, La Cucina - The Regional Cooking of Italy (English translation), 2009, Rizzoli, ISBN 978-0-8478-3147-0 ^ Jump up to: a b c Kasper, Lynne Rossetto, The Spendid Table, Morrow, ISBN 0-688-08963-1 Jump up ^ Kasper, Lynne Rossetto. "The Cardinal's Ragu | The Splendid Table". American Public Media. Retrieved 9 Oct 2013. ^ Jump up to: a b Zanini De Vita, Oretta, Encyclopedia of Pasta, University of California Press, ISBN 9780520255227

The present article (jan 2014) is an unfortunate example of the "Wikipedia enthusiast writing" phenomenon here on Wikipedia. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.148.173.30 (talk) 04:12, 28 January 2014 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 15 December 2014

check the "Nutrition" section. I'd just like to change the word "cantains" to "contains". 73.182.251.86 (talk) 06:02, 15 December 2014 (UTC)

Done Stickee (talk) 07:39, 15 December 2014 (UTC)

Citation 27

Citation 27 leads to a japanese blog which makes no mention of the evolution of pasta, which it is cited for. Please change the citation to citation needed.70.75.160.23 (talk) 07:47, 23 January 2015 (UTC)

Partly done: I've replaced the link with an archive link of the page which has the information that was on the page in 2012. Stickee (talk) 08:18, 23 January 2015 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 12 March 2015

I would like to request that the phrase "I LOVE PASTA!!!" be removed from the introductory paragraph. This is because I consider it trolling, and because it is neither grammatically or stylistically appropriate. Thank you! Hugheberdt (talk) 16:06, 12 March 2015 (UTC)

Done Vandalism reverted. Thanks, NiciVampireHeart 16:11, 12 March 2015 (UTC)

Neutral Statement Needed

Dried ..

"The way to create the finest dried pasta is by.."

Sounds like an opinion. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 218.252.34.198 (talk) 07:57, 9 April 2015 (UTC)

Done! Clr324 (say hi) 00:15, 13 May 2015 (UTC)

Spaghetti alla carrettiera

I moved this paragraph to discussion since it is debatable (to say the least):

In Tuscany and Umbria pasta is often served alla carrettiera (a tomato sauce spiked with peperoncini hot peppers).

Spaghetti alla carrettiera is not a Central Italian style of pasta: it is from Sicily and, to some extent, Rome. In Tuscany pasta is typically served with meat sauce (penne strascicate, pappardelle sulla lepre, pasta al sugo di carne and so on) (same issue here).--Carnby (talk) 19:01, 2 October 2015 (UTC)

Copyright violations in dried section.

Wholesale cut and paste job from source 28— Preceding unsigned comment added by Which Hazel? (talk • contribs)

Removed. It was a duplication of content anyways.--TMCk (talk) 15:15, 29 November 2015 (UTC)

Section on nutrition is pure waffle and I suggest deleting it from the article and replacing with a link e.g. For nutritional analysis see durum/spaghetti

I am afraid the section on nutrition for the basic pasta component is pure waffle by the author, contain nothing more than some iron and carbohydrate. Surely, because this article on spaghetti it is the same food): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spaghetti — Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.100.54.203 (talk) 21:19, 12 December 2015 (UTC)

Durum wheat flour is not usually used for homemade pasta.

Durum wheat flour is not usually used for home made pasta, only commercially produced, dried pasta. Egg pasta made at home almost always uses soft "oo" flour and eggs. "oo" is a very finely milled all purpose flour. Reference in Italian http://ricette.giallozafferano.it/Tagliatelle.html Djkrysa (talk) 14:28, 7 March 2016 (UTC)

The following is a partial article by Dean Kalimnou for NEOS KOSMOS; ........"For it was only much later that I discovered that according to Greek mythology, the great god of all artificers, Hephaestus invented a device that made strings of dough. His then, is the earliest reference to a pasta maker, suggesting that pasta, a foodstuff synonymous with Italy, is in fact Greek.

Or then again maybe not. Hephaestus's forges were said to be located underneath Mount Aetna, in Sicily, so it is probably safer to speak of a Magna Grecian provenance for pasta, rather than a broader Greek one.

As Greeks, we generally don't use the word pasta, except by those culturally suspect Hephaesians who have introduced us to pastitsio. Yet the Italian word, meaning dough or a pastry cake, is, according to scholars, a latinisation of the Greek παστά, being a form of barley porridge. Instead, as early as the works of the 2nd century AD Greek physician Galen, we find mention of the word itrion, signifying homogeneous compounds made of flour and water. This word must have been in use in Sicily right up until the Arab conquest for it passed into Arabic as "Itriyya," in turn giving rise to "trie" in Italian, signifying long strips such as tagliatelle and trenette.

By comparison, the Greek word referring to pasta in all its manifold forms, is μακαρόνια, appearing also in Italian as maccheroni. Yet this seemingly Latin word also attests to the usages and customs of the Greeks of Magna Graecia, that is, of Southern Italy, who settled there as colonists in ancient times. For academic consensus supports that the word is derived from the Greek μακαρία a kind of barley broth which was served to commemorate the dead, much as Orthodox Greeks make kollyva to commemorate their dead in memorial services today. Makaria, in turn, is held to derive from μάκαρες, meaning "blessed dead", which is the word used to describe them in the Orthodox memorial service and ultimately from μακάριος, collateral of μάκαρ which means "blessed" or "happy," which is exactly how I feel when I consume said μακαρόνια, especially alla puttanesca, which is always the source of saucy and imaginative conversation around the family dinner table.

Italian linguist Giorgio Alessio has looked further into the provenance of the world. He traces it to the Byzantine Greek μακαρώνεια, which was a funeral meal, comparable to the rice-based dish served at funerals in Eastern Thrace until modern times, which was known as μαχαρωνιά. Consequently, Alessio posits the term would be composed of the double root of μακάριος, meaning "blessed" and αἰωνίος meaning "eternal," always in keeping with Orthodox funerary customs.

Enough evidence exists however, to suggest a much older provenance for pasta and in particular, believe it or not, lasagna, which is about as Greek a dish as it gets. We know that lasagne has been eaten in Italy since Roman times, as a dish similar to the traditional lasagne called lasana or lasanum ( which is Latin word for "container", is described in the book De Re Coquinaria by Marcus Gavius Apicius, one of the oldest ever cookbooks. It also appears in the first century writings of Horace, as lagana, described as fine sheets of fried dough and as being an everyday foodstuff. Nonetheless, scholars hold that the word has a more ancient origin and is derived from the Greek λάγανον a flat sheet of pasta dough cut into strips. Other theories hold the Latin to be derived from the Greek λάσανα or λάσανον meaning a "trivet or stand for a pot" and it is postulated that Romans used the Greek word to refer to the dish in which lasagne is made and gradually, the name of the food took on the name of the serving dish, in the same way as Middle Easterners refer to a dish roast vegetables as «ταψί».

Greek rhetorician and grammarian Athenaeus of Naucratis, in his second century work "Deipnosophistae," or "Dinner-table Philosophers, " provides a mouth-watering recipe for lagana which he attributes to the first century Chrysippus of Tyana: sheets of dough made of wheat flour and the juice of crushed lettuce, then flavoured with spices and deep-fried in oil. The word lagana, of course, is still used in Greek today to mean a flat thin type of unleavened bread baked for the Clean Monday holiday, at the beginning of Lent.

Somewhere within the mists that shroud our history, the Greek people lost their macaroni making propensities. This is a great shame, as we were nowhere to be seen when the Italian pasta eating craze took over the world by store and were thus, unable to profit from it, our cuisine losing the sexiness that it might otherwise have had. This, it should be emphasised, took place through no fault of our own, but rather, as a result of Roman commercial aggression. Athenaeus described the Greeks of Italy as having created the first patents . According to his "Deipnosophistae" in 500 BC, in the Greek city of Sybaris in southern Italy, there were annual culinary competitions. The victor was given the exclusive right to prepare and sell his Masterchef signature dish for one year. This is a practice that obviously was discontinued after the city was taken over by the Romans along with all intellectual property therein.

Nonetheless, there is something truly comforting in knowing that our kitchen ruled aeons before George Calombaris was assembled by the Australian television networks. Had we been able to cling to those patents and preserved them, chances are the Magna Graecian restaurants of today, would be purveying Spaghetti alla dolmadaque, fettucini γιαχνί, ravioli γεμιστά and making an absolute killing. After all, while watching two star crossed lovers commence sucking at opposite ends of a strand of spaghetti in order for their lips to meet in the middle, witnessing two erotically charged Greeks gulp down chunks of souvlaki, tzatziki dripping ominously onto their chins, in order to achieve the same effect, is downright ridiculous.

Patents aside, the enduring Hellenic affiliation to pasta is best expressed by the late lamented Thanasis Veggos, in the movie: «Ο παλαβός κόσμος του Θανάση». Hired το participate in an advertisement for spaghetti, he cannot contain himself and gorges himself on the entire plate, all the while signing the jingle: «Τρώτε μακαρόνια, τρώτε μακαρόνια, είναι μια απόλαυση υγιεινή! Τρώνε οι παππούδες, τρώνε και τα εγγόνια, είναι μια απόλαυση σωστή!» Move over then Elgin Marbles. It's time we reclaimed our heritage. We are hungry for it." 58.7.203.222 (talk) 00:44, 1 December 2016 (UTC)