Talk:N. R. Narayana Murthy/Archive 1

Archive 1

Title added:community

Well i dont understand why people here dont accept that Narayana murthy is a Tamil.

Alex — Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.151.200.37 (talk) 21:59, 25 June 2005 (UTC)

Why do you classify people based on communities or origin. What difference will it make? He was born and brought up in Mysore, Karnataka with Cauvery water.Now he is recognised throughout the world one of India's top representative by having major campus in Bangalore.

Arun — Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.81.41.194 (talk) 20:49, 6 December 2005 (UTC)

His photo

The main photo on this page sucks big time. any other photo? doles 14:36, 2005 July 28 (UTC) He is an INDIAN !!! NO FURTHER discussions or divisions PLEASE JAI HINDH........

---

AVINASH R K --- An INDIAN....

We are proud to him.But he should also have to reform the poverty. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 122.169.10.229 (talk) 09:25, 15 January 2011 (UTC)

Why can't we have a photo of him alone. Why does it need a minister?! Can we please keep politics out of this?! Rajiv81 (talk) 16:58, 17 March 2021 (UTC)

Anthem

There has been something that may approximate an edit war concerning Murthy and the playing of the Indian national anthem. In the interests of stability, please discuss the matter here so that we may have consensus before the material is included in the article, if it need be included at all. Michaelbusch 19:41, 13 April 2007 (UTC)

I am not convinced of Wikipedia:Notability, and all the versions that have been put up violate WP:NPOV and do not give context. Michaelbusch 21:08, 13 April 2007 (UTC)

The anthem controversy issue is not notable at all! There are dozens of politicians who sing the national anthem on a daily basis, but never really do anything for the country. N. R. Narayana Murthy has changed the face of India's economy and the Indian software industry has received global recognition because of his efforts over the last two decades! The nation should certainly salute NRN and treat him with dignity. -MagicMiracle.

Reply to MagicMiracle (talk): Please see WP:NPOV. Whether a nation should salute a person or not, is irrelevant in encyclopediac article. Also, there is no point in having discussion in this talk page about comparing politicians with NRN.

Regarding, notability, the section is certainly notable, given that it is an encyclopediac article covering all the major happenings w.r.t. NRN. Covering a section on controversy is not by any means mentioned in WP:N or WP:NPOV, as indicated in your edit summaries. Also, please refer to Mahatma Gandhi, Sachin Tendulkar, Rahul Dravid, Bill Clinton articles, just as examples, which have covered Controversy sections. Thanks, - KNM ^Talk 01:39, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

The section is certainly irrelevant unless ofcourse you (KNM) are politically biased. It perfectly violates wikipedia's rules regarding neutrality and notability. The issue didn't last even for a day, making it completely insignificant and certainly not worthy of being included in NRN's Wikipedia page. I saw all the pages you mentioned. The conroversies there are way too different than this political battle. Using discretion, editors should also support me and not include politically motivated information in biography pages. KNM, stop vandalizing the page immediately. Editors, lets reach a consensus.—Preceding unsigned comment added by Magicmiracle (talk • contribs)

First things first. Please stop branding content disputes as vandalism. It is considered as Personal Attack. See WP:NPA policy.

Next, the section is certainly notable. See WP:N policy on notability. It clearly states as below.

The primary criterion for notability is that:

A notable topic has been the subject of multiple non-trivial published works that are reliable and independent of the subject."

As such, the section has been referenced from multiple non-trivial reliable sources. So please stop blanking out that section. Hope this clears. Thanks - KNM ^Talk 15:13, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

KNM, I am convinced that MagicMiracle is right in what he/she is saying. The NRN controversy is definitely not absolute. {Reference: Neutral point of view is a fundamental Wikipedia principle. According to Wikipedia co-founder Jimmy Wales, NPOV is "absolute and non-negotiable."[1]} Moreover, it is a direct attack on a public figure without legal justification. Unless a court in India finds NRN guilty, Wikipedia cannot include this in the biography section of NRN as it would directly mean that the whole story is a personal vendetta and technically it would also qualify for contempt of the judiciary and defamation. Hope you stop adding stuff not needed.

Good luck in the future, Neoguru 16:43, 16 April 2007 (UTC)Neoguru.

There seems to be a huge consensus on not including this controvertial section in NRN's biography as it is in a poor taste. Media gossip and biased views are never ever published in WP article: Thanks.

See below:

Editors must take particular care adding biographical material about a living person to any Wikipedia page. Such material requires a degree of sensitivity, and must adhere strictly to our content policies:

Attribution Neutral point of view (NPOV) We must get the article right.[1] Be very firm about high quality references, particularly about details of personal lives. Unsourced or poorly sourced contentious material — whether negative, positive, or just highly questionable — about living persons should be removed immediately and without discussion from Wikipedia articles,[2] talk pages, user pages, and project space.

Infotech007 16:58, 16 April 2007 (UTC)Infotech007

Yes, Magicmiracle and Micheal are both right. Non-notable and contentious material can never be a part of a person's biography on Wikipedia. Wikihero1 17:21, 16 April 2007 (UTC)WikiHero1

This way please. Sarvagnya 17:23, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

I've already reported Neoguru and Infotech as sockpuppets of Magicmiracle and neoguru already got a warning. Now on my way to report Wikihero1. Gnanapiti 17:25, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

All right folks, had enough. Stop vandalizing WP with non-notable, defamatory and conrtentious content. There is no such thing as the anthem controversy. Its just plain old media goppip.

Won't you feel embarassed if you were to attend a French conference, with all the French delegates singing the French anthem in French and you just standing there wondering when this is gonna finish ? Certainly it would be very embarrasing for any sane person. So playing the instrumental version is a decision which is sagacious as well as politically correct.

Leela99 17:36, 16 April 2007 (UTC)Leena99

I'm a completely disinterested non-Indian who has never heard of this guy before I noticed the requests for blocks at ANV today. For whatever my opinion is worth to you... I don't see any reason that an isolated incident that doesn't seem to be related to the things this man is important for would need to be included, much less discussed in such detail. I can't think of any reason that it would be included that doesn't involve the desire to publicly embarrass the man. If it were my decision, I'd leave it out per WP:BLP. -FisherQueen (Talk) 18:12, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

I happened upon this because of the sockpuppetry. I'm also disinterested in the actual event, but the sockpuppetry and personal attacks need to stop. Discuss this rationally, without resorting to underhanded methods like sockpuppets. Leebo ^T/C 18:15, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

• Its natural that you may not have heard of him. But he is often compared to Bill Gates and infact has even been talked of as a Presidential candidate(yes. the President of India). Naturally, his disrespect to the anthem is a big deal and was made into a big deal by every media house, big and small. There were even calls from some ministers in the government to have him arrested. Imagine, if Bill Gates or George Bush were to disrespect the anthem, it surely will find a place in Bill Gates or George Bush. Sarvagnya 18:19, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

Actually, my opinion would be the same in that case- I wouldn't support including this story in the George Bush article, either. -FisherQueen (Talk) 18:23, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

I agree with fisherQueen. Truthshine 18:18, 16 April 2007 (UTC)truthshine.

And I agree with Leebo. This is your only edit, and you are clearly another sockpuppet. If the argument you're making has merit, then stop the sockpuppeting and achieve consensus like a reasonable Wikipedian. -FisherQueen (Talk) 18:21, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

I disagree with FisherQueen. "Kyu be bhadve, tere ko bhenchod ka title de du kya sale hizde? Madarchod. Haram jada, lavde, gaandu, bhenchod". NRN is simply superb. As a matter of fact, we should all sing an anthem in his praise (Even instrumental is fine, I'm sure he won't object). He is the father of India's modern IT revolution. Remember guys, we missed the bus during the Industrial revolution? Well, we didn't miss it this time becoz of NR NarayanMurthy's sustained efforts. Original truth foundation 19:33, 16 April 2007 (UTC)Original TC.

Block me if you can. Original truth foundation 19:33, 16 April 2007 (UTC)OTF.

Do you have any intention of discussing this with attention to neutral point of view and a less combative attitude? A list of suspected sock puppets is already filed at Wikipedia:Suspected sock puppets/MagicMiracle, and you're not helping your case by making statements like "Block me if you can." Leebo ^T/C 19:48, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

User:Magicmiracle

This isn't even necessary. You could have used Wikipedia's dispute resolution procedures to make a strong argument for the change you want to make. I really think you would have been successful, in the end; I think that policy is on your side. Instead, you chose to create sockpuppets to disrupt the process, as a result of which you will likely be blocked, and unable to work on the article further. You're a new user, so you could probably still stop, apologize, and try participating according to the rules. That would be a really smart thing to do. -FisherQueen (Talk) 19:52, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

I have already requested the editorial team to fire all people who cannot respect the Father of India's IT revolution.

Bhadve saale 20:24, 16 April 2007 (UTC) Bhadve Saale

Fired from what? I'm not getting paid... It's extremely hard to take your concerns seriously when you are doing the exact opposite of what we are recommending. Leebo ^T/C 20:31, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

Also, stop submitting bogus reports about sockpuppetry with Gnanapiti and Sarvagnya. Neither of them are administrators, so your whole theory seems invalid. Leebo ^T/C 20:38, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

Oh, no! Don't have me fired! Oh, wait... I'm a volunteer. Your comment is absurd, and it highlights how little you understand about Wikipedia. After you are blocked, spend some time reading Wikipedia policies and guidelines and observe some conflicts without participating in them, so you can see how our dispute resolution procedures work. It's no crime to be new, or to misunderstand how Wikipedia works, but smart people observe and learn before making nonsensical threats.-FisherQueen (Talk) 20:43, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

 The anthem controversy; my clarification:

Ok, I apologize for the harsh comments/sockpuppeting and hope everybody understands that I did this out of sheer frustration and anger against people who try to pull down great leaders and philanthropists like N.R. Narayan Murthy.

Here's my clarification:

 The media-inflated issue:

The Infosys function was attended by the President of India, Dr. A.P.J. Abdul Kalam on April 8, 2007. Dr. Kalam himself is a great admirer of N.R. Narayan Murthy (NRN). Infosys is a NASDAQ/Forbes-listed company that has earned billion dollar profits in software and IT consultancy in the past few years. During one of these big functions at the Infosys campus, N.R. Narayan Murthy decided that they should play the instrumental version of India's National Anthem instead of the vocal version. The news-hungry television channels picked up a rumour that NRN was turning into a unpatriotic soul and blew out this street gossip out of proprotion.

 Can the "Anthem controversy" be included ?

N.R. Narayan Murthy has not been found guilty by any court in India, niether has anybody arrested him for anything similar. In such a situation, it is not only unfair to publish an entire paragraph containing defamatory information against N.R. Narayan Murthy, but also a wicked personal attack/vendetta against him. A street gossip that eventually ended up being an "issue" should never have found a place in biographies of living people to begin with, unless ofcourse a court in India issued a notice to the concerned party.

In a delicate situation like this, further publicity would only help worsen the situation and it could incite riots because of the contentious information provided. Moreover, the above information, if provided in the biography would clearly violate WP's code of conduct (See WP:LIVING WP:BLP):

 Clause in WP:LIVING WP:BLP: We must get the article right.[1] Be very firm about high quality references, particularly about details of personal lives. Unsourced or poorly sourced

contentious material — whether negative, positive, or just highly questionable — about living persons should be removed immediately and without discussion from Wikipedia articles,[2] talk pages, user pages, and project space.

Considering the above, I hereby make a strong request to the editors of Wikipedia to kindly remove any material that endorses contentious information against NRN with immediate effect.

CC: A copy of this letter has been sent to the editorial assistants.

 Thanks in advance! Great Sarkar 18:36, 17 April 2007 (UTC)Great Sarkar

reply

• You have been blocked; that means that you should not be creating more sockpuppets.
• Exactly what 'editorial assistants' did you send this to? -FisherQueen (Talk) 18:38, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

I tried to use the dispute resolution link, but it says that they are maintaining it and its locked temporarily.

Locking the database for maintenance usually lasts about 10 seconds. Refresh and it should be back. If you are editing now, it's available. Leebo ^T/C 18:50, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

there's nothing even remotely contentious or libelous in the issue here. we are not spreading 'street gossip' here. everything that transpired is on video. narayanamurthy isnt any Sir M V. he is a businessman and a successful one at that. thats all. nothing more nothing less. and btw, who/what are these 'editorial assistants' and why shouldnt i be asking for a block on you as well? Sarvagnya 19:36, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

...could incite riots... :D .. LOL.. and who will riot? you and your sockpuppets? ha ha.. you're funny. Sarvagnya 19:43, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

Reply: Whatever your stand in this discussion, you first stop creating more sockpuppets. Breaching the policy would only ensure extended block on you.
The entire section is well sourced. The sources are non-trivial, reputed, and there are multiple. You have no evidence that it is a street gossip. Please do not try misleading people, who are not familiar with the subject.
Riot?? No where it has happened and no signs/indications that it is going to happen. It is just your speculation. If not provide valid references for your claim.
Court order?? To mention a well-sourced controversy section doesn't need a court order. As written earlier, take a look into artcles such as Mahatma Gandhi, Sachin Tendulkar, Rahul Dravid which have much more visibility, and yet covered the relevant controversies without the need for so-called court order. - KNM ^Talk 20:08, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

Reply

Goodbye. I guess you missed the several places where I said that I do, in fact, support your reasoning, but that your bad behavior was preventing the changes you want from being made. When you say that you are quitting, I assume that this means all of your sockpuppets are quitting, as well. -FisherQueen (Talk) 22:02, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

I don't think he heard anything we said; it's like he was the only one talking. Leebo ^T/C 22:30, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

Hi, my name is Eclectic star 19:44, 18 April 2007 (UTC) eclectic_star and here's what I have to say:

Guys, lets stop the edit war and see what everyone has to say. To me, the entire episode looks like a 1-day affair and hence it seems impolite to include it in the biography that covers several decades of somebody's life history. You cannot certainly include every detail of what happened on thursday morning in NRN's life, or Tuesday afternoon in the bathroom, in the biography! That would be hilarious. Lets take a vote on this issue and reach a point of agreement. Eclectic star 19:44, 18 April 2007 (UTC)eclectic_star

Eclectic star, this was your first edit, and you sign your posts the same way as all the other sockpuppets (using the ~~~~ and manually typing your name after). You said you were leaving. If you're not leaving, don't put on the guise of an uninvolved party. Leebo ^T/C 20:09, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

(edit conflict)

Eclectic star: I notice that this is your very first edit! However, unless proven otherwise, I assume good faith on you that you are not yet another sockpuppet.

First of all, I request you to go through WP:NPOV and WP:N policies.

Next. Your logic on ignoring 1-day affair w.r.t several decades of life history, is not acceptable. In fact one's history is made up of so many such incidents. The incident, whether 1-day affair or 1-minute affair, gets its place in an encyclopediac article as long as it is notable.

A person gets birth only on 1-day, and he/she dies only on 1-day. Don't they get mentioned in the articles? - KNM ^Talk 20:14, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

Hello folks!

This is eclectic_star. I am not aware of what a sop pupet or whatever is, probably I need to read more abt this.

Regarding the 1-day issue, well ther is a tremendous amount of difference between taking a bath (a 20-minute affair or more appropriately a 1-day affair) and getting a birth/death (also a 1-day affair). There is something called as "impact" and I am sure my friends here know what "impact" means (Reference: [1]) Some things like going to the bathroom, having lunch are ultra-low impact things and a few others namely changing a country's economy, getting an award of international repute are high impact. Based on the above definition, it is more than obvious that the 1-day anthem affair was one of those low impact things which can certainly not find a place in a high impact biography that lists all the really significant aspects of a living person.

Hence, my request to the editors to remove the paragraph that has the low impact anthem controversy. Let me cite an example that will make it more clear:

In the year 2005, George W. Bush pressed the butts of a lady in public and also showed the middle finger to the camera while he was geting ready to deliver his address to the nation. Well, if you carefully read his biography, you won't find even the slightest mention of these happenings in any stanza or paragraph. Pressing a lady's butt in public is sexual harrassment (even if the lady happens to be your wife) and showing the middle finger to the camera that is later on used to address the United States is derogatory to the law-abiding US citizens.

A quick visit to Geroge W. Bush's page on Wikipedia will reveal the fact that these two controversies were NEVER added to Wikipedia by any wikipedia editor. On the other hand,NRN's anthem controversy is truly speaking, a mere question of choice. A company's co-founder certainly has the right to decide whether or not to play the vocal version of the national anthem and no external agency can interfere and impose ther decision on Infosys. Its perfectly against the law.

Now tell me folks, am I not technically/logically correct? Well, then go ahead and remove the anthem controversy from NRN's page!

Thanks, Eclectic Star.

• • You can google for this and see it right there on Utube or google videos. Well, its also there in the Michale Moore documentary. You can clearly see George Bush doing what I just mentioned earlier.

Google video: http://www.funrestarea.com/pages/bush_finger.shtml (shows that the President used the middle finger while getting ready to deliver his speech to the nation. Clearly very offensive)

It is against Wikipedia policy to disrupt the encyclopedia in order to make a point. Moreover, since your edit to George W. Bush included a personal judgement and included no sources, it does not prove your point anyway. Please don't use other articles to prove your point. -FisherQueen (Talk) 21:39, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

 Ok FisherQueen, I have refined my response and also included reference video.

Your edit to The President of the United States was a personal opinion. Please read more about Wikipedia's policies and guidelines before making anymore assertions like that. Leebo ^T/C 21:48, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

Sockpuppet dear- you make me want to cry. I feel I've sinned against a saint. :( But how the hell do I cry when I'm laughing my ass off!! :D ha ha ha. Keep them coming. keep them coming. Sarvagnya 22:03, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

Sockpuppet-free discussion area- please move sockpuppet comments to section above

Leebo, what's your opinion about the actual material under discussion- sockpuppetry aside for a moment? I tend to think that a whole paragraph about a single incident, no matter how well sourced, seems to be intended more to make the subject look bad than to present an honest overview of his career. I wouldn't object to a sentence or two acknowledging the incident, but a whole section, in an article this length, seems out of proportion to its importance to his biography. I think that there's a problem with recentism - yes, I know that's not a guideline, but I think it's a good description of what I see as the problem here. -FisherQueen (Talk) 21:52, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

I agree, FisherQueen. The incident did cause a stir it seems, and can be sourced, but it deserves not more than a brief mention. Part of neutral point of view is representing all the facts, the other part is representing them with due weight. Leebo ^T/C 22:20, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

I'm thinking that the most natural place to place it is at the end of the 'history and family' section. I'm throwing out as a proposal/starting point: "In 2007, some Indians criticized Murthy as unpatriotic when, during a visit from Indian president Abdul Kalam, he arranged for instrumental versions of the national anthem instead of sung versions, saying in a press statement that he did not want to embarrass foreign visitors." And cite it to the yahoo article, which seems to have all the relevant information? Does that sum it up? Can it be worded more effectively? -FisherQueen (Talk) 22:41, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

The only change I would propose is to "some Indians." Some, as a descriptor, is better avoided because it's unclear who they were or how many felt that way. I'm trying to think of a more clear wording. Leebo ^T/C 23:24, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

• My 2 cents - I really do not think that this is much ado about nothing. While I agree that the prose can be tightened and length reduced, I do not think that the section is unwarranted at all. This has been one of the few controversies that NRN has been involved(apart from his run in with Deve Gowda(a former PM of India)) and certainly merits a place. Articles arent just meant to be hagiographies.
• Also remember that the article is far from a "Good article" and still needs to be lengthened and improved greatly. Once that happens, I am sure even this section will get duly condensed and tucked away neatly in place. Just because the article overall is under fed shouldnt be reason to go against a well fed and better written section. Sarvagnya 23:32, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

This event just happened. A year from now- ten years from now- will it still be worthy of such a significant place in the man's biography? It seems to me that it will just be one small controversy- he isn't even a political figure, so his significance in India is not directly related to his opinions about the national anthem. -FisherQueen (Talk) 11:54, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

I concur with Leebo and FisherQueen (Thanks FisherQueen for pointing to WP:RECENTISM, which describes these edits quite appropriately). This incident is not worthy of the space it currently enjoys, let alone an entire separate section. Heck, 4 out of the 6 links under "References" are provided solely for this issue and nothing else (and one of them is a blog, for God's sake!). Obviously, this man is a successful, well-respected public figure. That is exactly the reason why irresponsible Indian news hounds clamoured to pick the story up and proceeded to fill their newspaper columns and 9 PM news slots. But just because this stuff is out there, does not mean it warrants equal weightage or space on Wikipedia.

I also read someone's comments on this talk page about how "his disrespect to the anthem is a big deal". I'd like to point out that no source has said that Murthy disrespected the anthem. Even those slimy politicians agreed that "there was no insult done to the national anthem". I reiterate that this issue has been distorted by media outlets and debated by useless armchair "patriots". I know I have no reliable sources to back this up (since the "reliable sources" themselves are involved in propagating this issue), but I can only appeal to your common sense to understand what the problem is.

In conclusion, I think that we should reduce the verbosity of the national anthem incident, and most definitely deprive it of a separate section by merging it with another extant section. FisherQueen's proposal sounds like a good starting point. Thank you, Max ^{- You were saying?} 18:37, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

Maayajaala of NRN

Today what has happened with NRN's persona is any upcoming engineer ( infact all students of karnataka are doomed into textbooks.

Son/daughter : I want this/that. Parent: Are you going to be NRN if I get that? Son/daughter : I want to play. Parent : Are you going to be Sachin? These type of questions have infact made hollowness in our generation And what for - even if they study in those VTU (Xerox based university) they all tend to become money earners in service companies. And instead of shouldering their aged parents they shoulder NRN and his likes to serve global delivery model specially the girl acts are very extra ordianry there! Still could not manage the nepotism taking place in his own company from MBAs to technicians. Thanks for a criticism section on this new breed Bangaloreans capitalists without foresight - of NRN and Mallya destroying the present talent pool. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 122.167.76.122 (talk) 09:11, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

General Cultural criticism really doesn't belong here. Undoubtably somebody wrote a book on the topic or is famous for writing about it so you can feature him in an article, but it's not like India doesn't have enough people famous for denouncing wealth. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 204.52.215.67 (talk) 17:31, 6 March 2008 (UTC)

I personally dont think this article needs to be improved. it is well written. May be, to make it comprehensive, the controversy of Murthy getting involved with national song not being sung can be added. That too, may be, to make it wholistic. (Niketsundaram1977 (talk) 07:08, 13 March 2008 (UTC))

Importance

NM's importance in Karnataka and India projects as per definition should be HIGH. I have set them here --Kalyan (talk) 19:09, 4 April 2008 (UTC)

List of quotes

The quote section, in my view, should be removed. Any quotes that are important to Murthy's life/work can be woven into the body of the article, but as an embedded list, they have virtually no value. See WP:NOTDIR ("Wikipedia articles are not: Lists or repositories of loosely associated topics such as (but not limited to) quotations... If you want to enter lists of quotations, put them into our sister project Wikiquote."

Unless someone objects, I will remove the section. If someone objects, we can try to reach a consensus as to the propriety of the section.--Bbb23 (talk) 23:13, 18 May 2011 (UTC)

Mentioning Caste

Dear Editors!
There has been a discussion on India Portal related to mentioning of caste of subjects. The point is that mentioning caste of people, who have nothing to do with their caste, is found to be unnecessary by few editors. Hence the caste of the subject person needs to be deleted from the biography. I am not deleting the caste as of now but am only posting this here so that the regular editors of this article are well aware of it beforehand and no edit-wars take place. For details of discussion held on the portal please refer Wikipedia_talk:Noticeboard_for_India-related_topics#Mentioning_caste_of_Individuals. Your views if any are welcome there or even here.
And.... as the reasons of exclusion of caste pointed out were "irrelavant to notability of subject person", "privacy of the subject person", "inclusion of caste is like branding individuals", etc. other information included in the article which also fall under these cases will also be removed after discussions. Examples of it included religion, non-notable spouse's and children's and parents' information, previous occupation, lived in places, non-notability related educational qualification, etc.
Your views on this are also welcome here or at the India portal. -Animeshkulkarni (talk) 15:10, 2 January 2012 (UTC)

Not here, please. There is a community discussion taking place at WT:INB and I would advise people to read the entire discussion before forming an opinion because the above summary is incorrect. Nothing more need be said here. - Sitush (talk) 01:26, 4 January 2012 (UTC)

In India, everything is caste. If we go through Dr.Ambedkar's wiki profile, it says he is born into poor mahar backward community. Ambedkar is a role model to many then please remove his caste mentioned in wiki. I dont find anything wrong in mentioning NRN's caste(Kannada madhwa brahmin) in wiki. If people from other caste are proud of mentioning their caste name, then we brahmins are also proud. Please include in the article. - Raghavendra — Preceding unsigned comment added by 202.79.203.43 (talk) 08:41, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

Name in Kannada

The user Kkm010 has been repeatedly removing the subject's name in Kannada from the article. Is there a particular reason for this? Aurorion (talk) 20:26, 12 June 2012 (UTC)

That is because of the consensus that was reached for removal of name in Indic scripts. You may read that here and here. But if you still want to say something, you may do that here. §§AnimeshKulkarni (talk) 07:19, 13 June 2012 (UTC)

• OK, thanks for the clarification. Aurorion (talk) 13:01, 13 June 2012 (UTC)

Full Protection 3 Days

I've fully protected the article from editing for three days. This is not an endorsement of the current version. I won't be participating but I strongly suggests that the editors engage in a discussion here regarding the content. Stop reverting each over again and again or blocks may follow if the activity continues after the protection expires. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © 15:31, 13 June 2012 (UTC)

Discussion

Would User:Kkm010 please share their views on what awards are notable and what not? §§AnimeshKulkarni (talk) 17:58, 13 June 2012 (UTC)

I'm not against native name. But I'm certainly against of awards particularly the news channel awards, however I do support notable awards given to the person. And I'm going to remove those list of awards, only notable names are going to be mentioned.--(talk→ Kkm010 ←track) 13:55, 14 June 2012 (UTC)

And is "your" definition of notability of awards? §§AnimeshKulkarni (talk) 14:17, 14 June 2012 (UTC)

Let say "Nobel Prize" or "Officer of the Legion of Honor" or "Padma Shri" these are truly respectable and also highly regarded honours. Got it. Therefore I'm going to remove those bullshit honours.--(talk→ Kkm010 ←track) 04:43, 15 June 2012 (UTC)

Why are Lifetime Achievement Awards by CNBC and Forbes "bullshit"? Why are awards given by USF & UPenn "bullshit"? Why is his being listed amongst top 10-12 "bullshit" to you? §§AnimeshKulkarni (talk) 06:10, 15 June 2012 (UTC)

It is literary ridiculous and I'm going to remove those list of awards simply they are funny, particularly when a "news channel" or some "unpopular magazine" give awards (not Forbes). But, don't worry I would definitely keep the most notable awards that are given to that person. Secondly, he is not the founder of the company but co-founder, that also needs to be corrected. Most imp the article has not been developed only "career section" has been, but anyway other editors hopefully would contribute for further improvement. I don't have too much time.--(talk→ Kkm010 ←track) 10:46, 15 June 2012 (UTC)

Try to come up with good reasons than "bullshit", "simply funny" and "ridiculous". Have a look at Wikipedia:IDONTLIKEIT. §§AnimeshKulkarni (talk) 13:20, 15 June 2012 (UTC)

I agree. How can *you* decide what is OK or not? Why not list everything and people can judge for themselves. You cannot unilaterally decide which ones are 'funny' or 'unpopular'. And read the company's history as well as every other document written about him -- he is always officially referred to the as the founder of the company. Look at the citations presented. He is the founder and his junior colleagues are always presented as the co-founders. This is on the company website itself. Tib42

As for the list of awards, listing everything and letting others "judge for themselves" is not appropriate. However, Kkm010's comments are not helpful. Animeshkulkarni, why don't you propose here a list of those awards you think are sufficiently important enough to list?

As for the comment about founder, he is not the founder, he is a co-founder, and the sources support that. Others started the company with him.--Bbb23 (talk) 23:56, 15 June 2012 (UTC)

I agree with Bbb23 that he is the co-founder and not the founder. As far as list of awards are concerned let Animeshkulkarni to list awards here and then a consensus need to be built which one should be their or not.--(talk→ Kkm010 ←track) 04:39, 16 June 2012 (UTC)

All! Why would there be any bargaining here? §§AnimeshKulkarni (talk) 06:43, 20 June 2012 (UTC)

We're talking about consensus - why would you use a word like "bargaining"?--Bbb23 (talk) 11:14, 20 June 2012 (UTC)

Otherwise those redundant awards are going to be removed as simple as that, therefore we are letting you to choose awards and list here and then we are going to built consensus on this issue.--♥ Kkm010 ♥ ^{♪ Talk ♪} ߷ _{♀ Contribs ♀} 09:47, 21 June 2012 (UTC)

How are they redundant? I will repeat again; you have to come up with good reasons than "bullshit", "simply funny" and "ridiculous" and now "redundant" to remove them. Else all stay. You not liking them is not reason for removal. §§AnimeshKulkarni (talk) 12:44, 21 June 2012 (UTC)

This is not helping and is not going to lead to consensus. At the moment we have 21 awards in table format. (As an aside, we are not going to have a table format and then other awards listed below in prose in the same section. It's just weird.) Anime, do you believe that all 21 awards are sufficiently noteworthy to remain? If so, just say that, and we can turn it over to Kkm who can then tell us which of the 21 he wants to delete and why (and I agree that bullshit, etc., are not good reasons). Anime, please start so we can get this going. Thanks.--Bbb23 (talk) 00:01, 22 June 2012 (UTC)

I agree they are weird. I'm not against all 21 awards all I'm saying list awards here then we would try to built consensus on this issue because if you take eg of "Nelson Mandela" who is famous and got some of the most prestigious awards in his life but on his biography only notable awards are mentioned, same thing goes for other famous personalities. You should known that today every now and then some "news channels" or "university's" do honours personalities but that doesn't mean that every awards has to be mentioned it shows that the poor fellow barely got any respect from the society and on his CV or profile he is very keen to mentioned list of awards small or big like daily items or time table. Therefore please Animeshkulkarni don't be so rigid and start listing awards here so that we can start the process of building consensus.--♥ Kkm010 ♥ ^{♪ Talk ♪} ߷ _{♀ Contribs ♀} 04:47, 22 June 2012 (UTC)

This is such stupid thing. Why do i have to list when i am saying all have to be there? (Anyways.... reading comments so far i should expect more such crazy things.) Here we go. I propose following list. §§AnimeshKulkarni (talk) 13:50, 22 June 2012 (UTC)

Year	Name	Awarding organization	Ref.
2012	University of South Florida Global Leadership and Free Enterprise awards	University of South Florida
2011	CNBC Lifetime Achievement Award	CNBC
2011	Forbes Lifetime Achievement Award	Forbes
2011	NDTV Indian of the Year's Icon of India	NDTV
2010	Man of the Year	GQ Magazine
2010	Foreign Associate Member	United States National Academy of Engineering
2006	List of Asian heroes	TIME magazine
2003	Indo-French Forum Medal	Indo-French Forum
2003	World Entrepreneur of the Year	Ernst and Young
2001	Wharton Business School Dean's Medal	University of Pennsylvania
2001	Nikkei Asia Prize	Nikkei Inc.
2001	Max Schmidheiny Freedom Prize	Switzerland
2000	Padma Shri	President of India

You didn't have to list them all if you thought that all 21 should remain, but I'll leave them here so everyone can see them. Before letting Kkm comment on which ones he wants to remove and why, I'd like to make some general comments. In my view, awards should be listed if (1) they are inherently notable or (2) if they are commented on by secondary sources (not the award issuer or a press release). An award is inherently notable if it's a major award and recognized as such. A shorthand, although not foolproof, for an inherently notable award is if WP had an article about the award. I'm not going to comment yet on individual entries, but many of the awards don't meet either criterion.--Bbb23 (talk) 23:05, 22 June 2012 (UTC)

Please change the wikilinks from Fortune to Fortune (magazine). GoingBatty (talk) 03:11, 23 June 2012 (UTC)

I personally believed that at Padma Shri, IEEE Honorary Membership, Woodrow Wilson Award for Corporate Citizenship, Padma Vibhushan, Officer of the Legion of Honor, Commander of the Order of the British Empire (CBE), IEEE Ernst Weber Engineering Leadership Recognition, IEEE Honorary Membership and Fortune+Time magazine should be there other awards are redundant. Whta you think guys.--♥ Kkm010 ♥ ^{♪ Talk ♪} ߷ _{♀ Contribs ♀} 14:38, 27 June 2012 (UTC)

AGAIN, WHY? §§AnimeshKulkarni (talk) 06:08, 28 June 2012 (UTC)

You know, Anime, the burden isn't only on Kkm (or anyone else) to demonstrate that an award is not noteworthy. You have to explain why you think they are noteworthy. In any event, I've removed all the awards from the table above that Kkm has no objection to so we can see which awards are still at issue. It would be helpful if both of you gave some reasons why the above awards are noteworthy or not. I will reiterate that just because someone receives an award does not make it worthy of inclusion in the article, particularly if the only source we have for it is the issuer of the award itself.--Bbb23 (talk) 22:50, 28 June 2012 (UTC)

Fine delete the whole article. I am out of this. §§AnimeshKulkarni (talk) 06:46, 29 June 2012 (UTC)

Why you're pissed off ? There is nothing to be so angry, its just a discussion. The reasons why other awards are redundant because those awards are not notable and most importantly its difficult to find secondary sources of those awards. As far as the awards that I mentioned earlier I'm quite hopeful I would be able find secondary sources apart from the primary sources. As User:Dennis Brown said: listing awards like that is often superfluous in nature. We all should refrain from listing whole bunch of awards only notable ones must be mentioned with credible source.--♥ Kkm010 ♥ ^{♪ Talk ♪} ߷ _{♀ Contribs ♀} 04:19, 30 June 2012 (UTC)

References

Full Protection 7 Days

I've fully protected the article from editing for seven days. This is not an endorsement of the current version. I won't be participating but I strongly suggests that the editors engage in a discussion here regarding the content. This would be the last time I expect to protect the page, and the reverts start back without discussion, blocks are likely without any additional warning. If editors can't discuss their differences, they shouldn't expect to be able to continue editing for a while. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © 15:31, 13 June 2012 (UTC)

Discussion

Note: the discussion on the article issues is continuing in the section above (after the first protection was imposed. No reason not to leave it there.--Bbb23 (talk) 00:02, 22 June 2012 (UTC)

Please see the company's official page. It clearly lists him as a founder and not a co-foudner. Why do you insist on not seeing this bare fact? Also, who are you to do decide the TIME magazine honor is not valid? I am restoring all of these. .--tib42 (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 06:27, 29 June 2012 (UTC)

Protected for another week - Dispute Resolution

This is the third time I've protected the article and I see that nothing is getting worked out. Rather than waiting for the reverts to pile up so I can start blocking people, I will attempt to mediate here and keep things a bit focused. I know nothing about the topic, have no interest in it, so it is safe to say I'm neutral in the matter. I don't care what version you agree on, I only care that you agree on one. I will invite all parties.

Lets break down the big issues below, and keep it on topic, no personal comments, just the facts so we can find consensus and I can unprotect the article. No disruption will be tolerated here, lets just settle this as adults, in a bit more formal a manner. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © 23:59, 29 June 2012 (UTC)

• Update as it has been a week since anyone has added or updated, I'm assuming their is no interest in adding more awards and will ask an uninvolved party to close the discussion. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © 19:00, 11 July 2012 (UTC)

Dennis Brown please see my last iteration on the page. There are primary and secondary citations from notable sources for almost every award. -- Tib42 —Preceding undated comment added 03:47, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

At this point, every addition of an award should be discussed on the talk page first. Ryan Vesey Review me! 04:12, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

Fine, here is what I posted -- Tib42

Awards and honours

Year	Name	Awarding organization	Ref.
2012	James C. Morgan Global Humanitarian Award	The_Tech_Museum_of_Innovation
2012	University of South Florida Global Leadership and Free Enterprise award	University of South Florida
2012	Fortune's 12 Greatest Entrepreneurs of our Time	Fortune Magazine
2011	CNBC Lifetime Achievement Award	CNBC
2011	Forbes Lifetime Achievement Award	Forbes
2011	NDTV Indian of the Year's Icon of India	NDTV
2010	IEEE Honorary Membership	Institute of Electrical and Electronics Engineers.
2010	Man of the Year	GQ Magazine
2010	Foreign Associate Member	United States National Academy of Engineering
2009	Woodrow Wilson Award for Corporate Citizenship	Woodrow Wilson International Center for Scholars
2008	Padma Vibhushan	President of India
2008	Officer of the Legion of Honor	Government of France
2007	Commander of the Order of the British Empire (CBE)	Government of United Kingdom
2007	IEEE Ernst Weber Engineering Leadership Recognition	Institute of Electrical and Electronics Engineers
2006	List of Asian heroes	TIME magazine
2003	Indo-French Forum Medal	Indo-French Forum
2003	World Entrepreneur of the Year	Ernst and Young
2002	Asia's Businessman of the Year	Fortune Magazine
2001	Wharton Business School Dean's Medal	University of Pennsylvania
2001	Nikkei Asia Prize	Nikkei Inc.
2001	Max Schmidheiny Freedom Prize	Switzerland
2000	Padma Shri	President of India

Dennis Brown please see the above list. I have posted secondary sources for almost every award which required secondary sources. There has been no response to my post for some time. -- Tib42 —Preceding undated comment added 03:53, 31 July 2012 (UTC)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section. A summary of the conclusions reached follows.

There is currently no opposition to including the awards presented in the "Notable award" list so all of those will be included. Aside from initial arguments that all awards should be included, there has been no argument for specific inclusion of any other award. In this case, the arguments that the notability of an award must be supported by multiple appearances in reliable sources are most supported by policy. A case can be made for inclusion of some of the other awards, and further discussion on those awards is encouraged. Ryan Vesey Review me! 04:57, 16 July 2012 (UTC)

---

Awards

Generally speaking, listing notable awards is fine, listing non-notable awards is often superfluous. Any award with an article automatically is considered notable, any award that gets mainstream coverage is likely notable and we just haven't made an article on it. Local awards (lesser known) are likely not included unless it ties into some other fact and is sourced. I suggest listing the awards (no table) here that you all agree on, then the ones that need discussion below that. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © 23:59, 29 June 2012 (UTC)

For what it's worth, I commented on a similar discussion here regarding awards. My position was that Wikipedia is not in a position to establish which awards are credible and which are merely paid for. This reinforces Dennis' comments above on the importance of awards that are published by or featured in reliable sources, because Wikipedia is not in a position to establish the credibility of individual awards. Unlike Dennis, I haven't read the whole string, so I'm just charging in hoping this is somehow useful. User:King4057 01:59, 30 June 2012 (UTC)

I totally agree with Dennis Brown, listing non-notable awards is redundant and superfluous. Therefore only notable ones be mentioned provided with source.--♥ Kkm010 ♥ ^{♪ Talk ♪} ߷ _{♀ Contribs ♀} 04:25, 30 June 2012 (UTC)

Dennis, in a globalized and increasingly interconnected world, how do you define which awards are 'local' and unworthy of listing? I don't think you or I can decide as such. All that I am saying is lets list the cited awards and these are all by well known magazines, journals, or professional bodies and let people decide what they would like or not. I do not think its far to decide what is reputable. Rather, as long as it is a clearly cited source there shouldn't be a problem. All awards listed have the appropriate citations. Tib42

If we start with the University of South Florida as an example, the only citation is the school newspaper and it is therefore not cited properly by a reliable source. Would anyone disagree with taking that one off? User:King4057 14:02, 30 June 2012 (UTC)

WP:PRIMARY says "A primary source may only be used on Wikipedia to make straightforward, descriptive statements of facts that any educated person, with access to the source but without specialist knowledge, will be able to verify are supported by the source." "XYZ won ABC Award" is such statement. §§AnimeshKulkarni (talk) 14:27, 30 June 2012 (UTC)

I think you miss the point Dennis, King, and I are making. Although King may have worded his last point somewhat imprecisely, the issue is not whether the school newspaper is a reliable source. Let's assume it is. The problem is the award is not noteworthy because the only source for it is the issuer, and there's no reason (and no evidence) to believe the award is otherwise notable.--Bbb23 (talk) 16:04, 30 June 2012 (UTC)

But that's what King said. We are in no position (as of now) to decide which award is notable and which isn't. Popular choice sms-and-vote awards like "Miss Beautiful Skin" get a lot of coverage and hence you would find many references for that. Whereas some award given by local government to some 70 year oldie for good work is published on 15th page in a newspaper. As long as we do not have any established guideline for notability of awards, all awards with RS are notable. Above that, in this particular case his awards are not like spamming whole article.
Dennis, i would like you revive the discussion on Wikipedia:Notability (awards). §§AnimeshKulkarni (talk) 19:19, 30 June 2012 (UTC)

Just because there are no specific guidelines on what awards are notable doesn't mean that all awards with a source are automatically notable. This is a judgment call as to what information should or shouldn't be included in the article, and as with any kind of similar content issue, a consensus determines the result. At this point, the consensus is that many of the awards are not worthy of inclusion. The only thing, in my view, to be decided is which ones remain and which ones go.--Bbb23 (talk) 19:27, 30 June 2012 (UTC)

(edit conflict) Taking on a new project is likely out of the question for me now, remind me of that in two weeks ;). This is why I said to (below) start the list with the most obvious awards. List the ones that everyone agrees on, then below that, we can discuss the other awards one by one if needed. Our goal isn't to create policy, but to create consensus. That is all that matters for now, deciding the list based on the consensus here. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © 19:29, 30 June 2012 (UTC)

@Bbb23: This shouldn't apply just for this article. For example if you say "Wharton Business School Dean's Medal" should not be mentioned, (i dont know if this particular award is on your deletion list. Just an example.) then it should not be mentioned on Dhirubhai Ambani, Chao Kuang Piu, etc. articles too. This is not something that you decide for a single case.
@Dennis: No rush! The article was locked for like 2 weeks with no progress. We can stay for more. I can try and pull other strings till then. §§AnimeshKulkarni (talk) 19:49, 30 June 2012 (UTC)

I'm not on this Talk page to solve all the problems and inconstencies in Wikipedia articles. See WP:OTHERCRAPEXISTS. I'm just here to reach a consensus on the content of this article. Based on the result here, you are, of course, welcome to try to apply it to other articles, but bear in mind that consensuses are often inconsistent as well.--Bbb23 (talk) 20:03, 30 June 2012 (UTC)

And i am not here to give special treatment to this page alone. If you want to delete all awards, do it. §§AnimeshKulkarni (talk) 20:21, 30 June 2012 (UTC)

That Notability (awards) page was basically abandoned 5 years ago, after doing much of nothing to begin with. I tend to agree with them that the existing guidelines are adequate to cover them without getting into instruction WP:CREEP. Short version: if it has an article here, or would qualify for an article here, it is notable. Otherwise, it should not be included in any list. Rare but acceptable is for it to be used in the prose as a supporting fact for another event. This is consistent with WP:V and WP:N, and satisfies WP:TRIVIA] as well. It is also been my experience that this will be consistent from admin to admin and article to article. IE: We already have notability guidelines, just use them. They are the objective source, we just get a consensus for the application here on the talk page, for each one that doesn't obviously pass. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © 20:27, 30 June 2012 (UTC)

Award criteria

Based on previous unrelated discussions, the criteria that we generally use for considering an award acceptable for listing are:

• 1. The award has an article on Wikipedia. We accept the vetting of other editors and if the article is an established one, we can simply just assume it is notable.
• 2. The event of receiving the award has significant coverage in reliable sources. Perhaps that is an award we need to create an article on, and just haven't. If previous ceremonies of this award have been covered multiple times by reliable sources, but not this one ceremony, then it too is likely notable enough for inclusion, so we err on the generous side and use it.
• 3. If the award has never received significant coverage, and the event where it was awarded never received significant coverage in independent, mainstream, reliable sources, then we would consider it not notable enough to mention. The exception would be if the award is part of a larger fact (perhaps an event that happened at the ceremony that is worthy of including) but only if sourced.
• 4 All awards are strongly suggested to be sourced by secondary sources that pass WP:RS, not primary sources. This is consistent with WP:V.

This is a general guide, and should help you create the list below. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © 15:21, 30 June 2012 (UTC)

This is interesting. For the 2nd point mentioned here we would have to check if the award has received significant coverage when accorded on other recipients. Hence if you all make a list of delete-this-award it would be easy for us to check if that award passes this 2nd criteria. §§AnimeshKulkarni (talk) 19:55, 30 June 2012 (UTC)

As AnimeshKulkarni suggests, the second criterion can be met. all awards listed on the page have multiple references and if the desire is to have multiple sources of significant coverage we can find those as well. - Tib42.

Award list

Here is a list of "obvious" awards that can remain in the article (per Dennis's comments here and above):

• Notable Awards
• NDTV Indian of the Year's Icon of India
• IEEE Honorary Membership
• Woodrow Wilson Award for Corporate Citizenship
• Padma Vibhushan
• Officer of the Legion of Honor
• Commander of the Order of the British Empire
• IEEE Ernst Weber Engineering Leadership Recognition
• Padma Shri

For simplicity's sake, I am listing only those awards for which we have articles. That cuts both aways in that it rejects awards that might be otherwise notable and accepts awards purely on the existence of a WP article but without any deeper analysis.--Bbb23 (talk) 19:36, 30 June 2012 (UTC)

• Unless someone argues against inclusion of the above awards, I will assume a consensus and proper sources exist and that these should be included. As the possible list is sorted, I will add those are qualify up here as well. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © 02:30, 4 July 2012 (UTC)

---

• Possibly Notable Awards

Here is the list that I think is correct. For each award/honor there are several citations that support it. Note: these are not merely awards alone but honors as well.

• University of South Florida Global Leadership and Free Enterprise awards
• Fortune's 12 Greatest Entrepreneurs of our Time
• CNBC Lifetime Achievement Award
• Forbes Lifetime Achievement Award
• GQ Magazine's Man of the Year
• TIME magazine's 60 years of Asian Heroes
• Ernest and Young's World Entrepreneur of the Year
• FORTUNE's Asia's Businessman of the Year
• Wharton Business School Dean's Medal
• Nikkei Asia Prize
• Max Schmidheiny Freedom Prize (covered at St. Gallen Symposium but is unsourced)

— Preceding unsigned comment added by Tib42 (talk • contribs) 04:17, 3 July 2012 (UTC)

List reviewed

Ok, I've looked at all these and it isn't obvious that they are notable but that doesn't mean that sources don't exist, only that they aren't easily found. In order for these to be considered, you need to demonstrate notability. This is pretty standard stuff, and required in any list of awards, so as soon as the they are sourced using this standard criteria, we can consider them. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © 23:02, 4 July 2012 (UTC)

• • To be considered, please provide the link to their Wikipedia article if they have one, a source showing they actually received it (preferably not a primary source since that raises contention issues), and some source demonstrating the award is notable if they don't have a wikipedia article (ie: the award would qualify for an article, we just haven't made one yet, so should pass WP:RS) We can't consider unsourced or unnotable awards, so this is required. I understand it may take a while, feel free to leave a note on my talk page when you are done so we can start looking at the merits of each one individually. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © 02:22, 4 July 2012 (UTC)

---

• Not notable

(don't move to here until after the discussion for that award is complete, then move whole thread.)

• ?
• ?
• ?

The above list is incorrect. Every single award mentioned in my version of the page has multiple sources. You somehow seem to choose to ignore all other awards. For example, the FORTUNE recognition was widely circulated by all press articles and FORTUNE itself is a well-known magazine with a Wikipedia page. Why is that not on the above list? -- Tib42

Please follow the format and add the awards that aren't in the upper list into the possible list, so that each may be considered individually. That are agreed upon will get moved up. Only those in the list will be considered. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © 15:30, 1 July 2012 (UTC)

It would be helpful if someone would populate the secondary section with potential awards. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © 12:33, 2 July 2012 (UTC)

Just to be clear, I have no awards to add to the "possibly notable" list.--Bbb23 (talk) 12:49, 2 July 2012 (UTC)

I've reverted and reformatted the list, so we can begin the process of allowing him to provide proper sourcing to demonstrate notability and to show the award was actually given. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © 02:26, 4 July 2012 (UTC)

Dennis Brown -- just to be sure I understand, are you looking for secondary sources/newspaper articles for each award? Also, I seem to recall seeing an official CV somewhere on the web. Can that be cited as a source? -- tib42 —Preceding undated comment added 05:54, 4 July 2012 (UTC)

There are two kinds of cites needed here to be included: 1. Obviously a cite showing that he received the award from a reliable source that isn't the company themselves. 2. Some independent source talking about the award in general. In other words, the kind of source you would use if you were creating an article on that award itself, not the gifting to this person. Generally, to be in a list, the award needs to be notable, ie: fit the criteria to have its own article here on Wikipedia if someone took the time to write it. Otherwise, we would have every person's article listing awards in high school and cub scout badges. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © 01:39, 6 July 2012 (UTC)

This will take a bit of time but I will get it together in the next couple of days. -- tib42 —Preceding undated comment added 19:06, 8 July 2012 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

(Co?) Founder

Resolved

 – WP:V forces to use "co-founder", as using both secondary sources and the actual person's own words verifies this usage. "Founder" is like used in the generic in other sources. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © 20:17, 30 June 2012 (UTC)

This is not fair. On what basis do you claim this is resolved? Your argument and sources are not correct. You haven't even heard out the arguments fully. You choose to ignore the official pages listed on the company's website. -- Tib42 — Preceding unsigned comment added by Tib42 (talk • contribs) 23:51, 30 June 2012 (UTC)

The document used to determine was from the website. It was an official filing for investors, which is considered a legal document of sorts, and it was signed by Mr. Murthy himself. The website is written by webmasters, this document is as direct of a primary source as you can get, and it agrees with the majority of secondary sources. It isn't about fair, it is about the proper application of policy here. This is actually a very cut and dry situation, via our policies. If he says he is co- and sources say he is co-, then my opinion and your opinion is meaningless. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © 15:36, 1 July 2012 (UTC)

---

Founder or cofounder. I have no idea. I know that we first look to secondary sources for this info. If that is lacking, then we use primary sources. If we have both and they conflict, we favor the secondary but it is fine to note that the sources disagree in the body of the article itself. Below, discuss the sources for each position please. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © 00:00, 30 June 2012 (UTC)

• Founder:

Source:

http://www.infosys.com/about/management-profiles/Pages/narayana-murthy.aspx

The company itself straight away clearly demarcates him as the founder and all others as co-foudners since he actually started the company and put in all the capital to start it. This is the most authoritative source. Also, ironically, here is an article from the same newspaper that is cited by Kkm010 below (from the Economic Times) that clearly refers to him as a founder.

http://articles.economictimes.indiatimes.com/2012-05-16/news/31727014_1_nr-narayana-murthy-infosys-chairman-emeritus-discussion

And its sister paper

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/business/india-business/I-feel-sad-about-Indian-economy-Narayana-Murthy/articleshow/14066166.cms

And here are more references

http://www.fuqua.duke.edu/news_events/releases/644217/ http://hbr.org/2011/11/why-dont-we-try-to-be-indias-most-respected-company/ar/1 http://www.thehindubusinessline.com/industry-and-economy/info-tech/article3262475.ece http://www.indianexpress.com/news/kamat-to-step-into-infosys-founder-murthys-shoes/784001/

The problem is that Indian newspapers don't pay attention to detail and they mix up the terms founder and co-founder. The two are different and it is he who is referred to as the founder.

Posted by tib42 —Preceding undated comment added 05:27, 30 June 2012 (UTC)

• Co-founder:

Source:http://ishare.rediff.com/video/news-politics/interview-with-n-r-narayana-murthy-co-founder-and-chief-mentor-of-infosys-technologies/606557

http://articles.economictimes.indiatimes.com/2012-03-29/news/31250400_1_n-r-narayana-murthy-fortune-mark-zuckerberg

http://www.forbes.com/profile/nr-narayana-murthy/

All sources mentioned.--♥ Kkm010 ♥ ^{♪ Talk ♪} ߷ _{♀ Contribs ♀} 04:25, 30 June 2012 (UTC)

Founder discussion

I would need to look harder, but at first glance, part of the problem I see is the loose use of the word "founder". English is a funny language. You can use the word "founder" when you really mean "co-founder". For example, many people call Steve Jobs the founder of Apple, or one of the founders. Steve Wozniak was just as instrumental in the founding, even if not the rebirth. Here at Wikipedia, we call him the co-founder, even though his role in the company after the beginning dwarfed that of Woz's. So before we decide if he is "co", we look for other founders.

According to the article on the actual company he (co)founded: Infosys was co-founded in 1981 by N. R. Narayana Murthy, Nandan Nilekani, N. S. Raghavan, S. Gopalakrishnan, S. D. Shibulal, K Dinesh and Ashok Arora. Today, Infosys is a global leader in the "next generation" of IT and consulting with revenues of billion (FY12).

Next, we look at the words of Mr. Murphy himself. What does he say? He says cofounder.[2] This is as primary of a link as you can get. In the end, I would conclude that the use of the word "founder" is being used as a generic, meaning "one or more", and if we are most precise and use the more accurate references and his own words, we are left with using co-founder. Both the secondary and the most powerful primary sources agree with this term, and the user of the singular "founder" can be written off as a being used generically. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © 15:10, 30 June 2012 (UTC)

Exactly right, Dennis, when sources refer to Narayana as "founder", they are not incorrect. He is one of several founders, and he may arguably the most notable of the co-founders. However, at Wikipedia, we need to be more precise, which is why co-founder is the more appropriate term.--Bbb23 (talk) 15:34, 30 June 2012 (UTC)

Dennis, Your citation to [3] is incorrect. Nowhere in the document does he refer to himself as the co-founder. Furthermore, you cannot use the article on Wikpedia on the company as a source for your argument. That is self-referential. Users like Bb23 have obviously changed such pages. The correct thing to do is to look at the company's official pages, all of which name him as the founder. Most notably see this [4] which is the official company profile on him which lists him as a 'Founder' and see this [5], which lists everybody ELSE as a co-founder. This is the authoritative source. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Tib42 (talk • contribs) 23:38, 30 June 2012 (UTC)

Your first comment is mind-boggling. Here are quotes from that source:

1. "At inception, the Founders put in the basic financial ..." (founders plural)
2. "S. D. Shibulal ... is one of the co-founders ... of Infosys"
3. "Bidding goodbye to perhaps the brightest of my co-founder colleagues"
4. "I took a small percentage of my earlier salary while every other co-founder's salary was increased ..."

There are more, and this is all from their annual report.--Bbb23 (talk) 23:59, 30 June 2012 (UTC)

'Mind-boggling'? Its pretty simple. All quotes are about his colleagues being called co-founders, not himself. Why don't you look at the official company page. Why is he alone referred to as the Founder and all others as Co-Founders on the official company pages? If you have an rationale explanation for this then I shall agree with you. -- tib42

I can only guess that Murthy is considered the most important of the co-founders and therefore is sometimes referred to as the Founder (capitalized). But if we're going to be steered by the company's website, there's also this quote from the bio of one of the Co-Founders (notice again that the website uses capital letters): "S. Gopalakrishnan (Kris), along with N.R. Narayana Murthy and five others, founded Infosys in 1981." ([6]) Notice that the lead currently says that Murthy "co-founded" in lower case and just as a plain English verb, and I think that's an accurate statement. That said, I would be willing to make two changes (if others agree), the second of which might satisfy you. (1) I'd change "succeeded by co-founder Nandan Nilekani" to "succeeded by Co-Founder Nandan Nilekani" so that we are thinking of this term in this context as a title. (2) I'd add Founder to the infobox so it would read: "Founder and Chairman Emeritus, Infosys". However, I'd want a footnote for Founder to explain it because without an explanation, it would be misleading. For example, if you look back at the annual report, you'll see that other people refeer to Murthy sometimes as "Founder" but they also refer to the group sometimes as "Founders" and sometimes as "founders". Despite all these apparent inconsistencies, looking at the totality of the primary material (their website and report), I would say that everyone considers him the most important co-founder and that he is sometimes, at least, referred to as "Founder" out of respect. I'm not crazy about going into all this detail in the article. Wikipedia does not have to satisfy the company's druthers in this regard - we just have to be accurate. I'll let others comment on whether we should leave it as is or change it, and if we change it, how.--Bbb23 (talk) 14:33, 1 July 2012 (UTC)

I totally agree with Dennis Brown and Bbb23, he is the co-founder and not the founder of the company, he may get some media highlight but that doesn't put him as the founder of Infosys. All seven member put equal effort in building the company in that some get more media highlight others don't but those who don't their sincere effort of help founding the company can't be ruled out.--♥ Kkm010 ♥ ^{♪ Talk ♪} ߷ _{♀ Contribs ♀} 05:14, 1 July 2012 (UTC)

This is also backed by the Steve Jobs comparison, who is often called "founder of Apple" even though everyone knows he is co-founder. He is the more known and public of the co-founders. Google the exact phrase "steve jobs, founder of apple" and see for yourself. Yet it is not disputed that he is the co-founder. Co-founder is the correct term here, and is supported by every example and previous instance on Wikipedia. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © 15:29, 1 July 2012 (UTC)

Dennis, I disagree with you. Since when did the results of a Google search constitute the truth? This is the most bizarre way of ascertaining the 'truth'. I agree with bbb23 - I think having an Infobox along with Founder is appropriate. I am only pointing out the official record on the company's own site. Hence, I will accept Founder with an explanation so that it is not misleading. -- tib42

tib42, I think it's fair to say that my tentative suggestion, which I wasn't all that crazy about myself, has been rejected. Based on subsequent comments, the article should remain the way it is, reporting that Murthy is a co-founder. I'm afraid you'll have to bow to the consensus on this issue.--Bbb23 (talk) 15:36, 3 July 2012 (UTC)

Absolutely! Co-founder is the final verdict.--♥ Kkm010 ♥ ^{♪ Talk ♪} ߷ _{♀ Contribs ♀} 04:12, 2 July 2012 (UTC)

Other issues

If there is more than meets the eye, discuss it here. If we can't find consensus, then it will be taken to WP:DRN. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © 23:52, 29 June 2012 (UTC)

References

Rehashing awards

Tib42, just because you have provided multiple references to the award doesn't mean we should include it. We need you to choose those awards that are not included and that you feel should be included and state why. It might be better if you take this one or two at a time. Ryan Vesey 13:14, 31 July 2012 (UTC)

Ryan Vesey please see the discussion. We all clearly agreed on a protocol for providing secondary citiations for each award. Most references are from well known news papers and TV channels. If awards are widely reported in the news media, how do *you* get to determine if they are worthy or not? How do you get to decide if FORTUNE, a 80 year old well-respected business journal is not an appropriate source when it has named this person as one of the greatest entrepreneurs of our time? Why is this not a relevant award to list? This is a matter of pride for India and it is kind of strange that this needs 'discussion' at all. If these awards are widely reported then why not list them and the readers can judge for themselves as to what is appropriate. I think you are being very unfair here. -- Tib42

• The fortune reference should be in the article in my opinion. In fact, as a cursory glance, I believe the following are notable enough. I'll provide my reasoning later, perhaps you can help. Ryan Vesey 17:35, 3 August 2012 (UTC)
  • Fortune's 12 Greatest Entrepreneurs of our Time
  • Forbe's lifetime achievement award
  • TIME magazine's 60 years of Asian Heroes
  • Wharton Business School Dean's Medal
  • Ernest and Young's World Entrepreneur of the Year

Hi Ryan Vesey, in addition to the list above I suggest the following (and I list my reasoning below)

• Asia's Businessman of the Year by Fortune Magazine

This is pretty self-explanatory. Past winners include the CEO of Sony, Singapore Airlines, etc. and other well-known Asian company CEOs.

• CNBC's lifetime achievement award

This is given by [[CNBC}], which is a well-known arm of NBC that focuses on business news. CNBC's past awardees include Steve Jobs, Fujio Cho, etc.

• The James C. Morgan Global Humanitarian Award by the Tech Museum of Innovation

This is a well-reputed award in silicon valley given for non-profit work and its past awardees include Bill Gates, Al Gore, Queen Rania, among others.

• The Nikkei Asia Prize

This is given by the the Japanese stock exchange and its past awardess include the current Prime Minister of India Manmohan Singh and several well-known scientists, policy makers, and change agents in Asia. The URL for all winners and their bios is at http://e.nikkei.com/e/fr/forum/nap/index.aspx

• The Max Schidheiny Freedom Prize

Past awardees include Kofi Annan, Jagdish Bhagwati, Lennart Meri, and several other heads of states, intellectuals, and policy agents.

--Tib42 —Preceding undated comment added 21:00, 7 August 2012 (UTC)

I've started off by refactoring your comment to remove the awards that were already presented in the article. There's no reason to reinvent the wheel. I'll try to get back to you on the other issues, but I'm really not editing actively right now. Try talking to Dennis Brown. Ryan Vesey 14:46, 23 August 2012 (UTC)

Dennis Brown, we need your help. Ryan is offline and unable to continue this discussion. Please see above. I have provided further details for each award. This has gone on for too long and we have not had a resolution. Please help. -- Tib42. —Preceding undated comment added 04:28, 26 September 2012 (UTC)

Bbb23, if you want to discuss this further then please do so here. I have tried to reason with everybody (see above) over the past couple of months. You are choosing not to engage and instead just roll back without looking at the facts that I have presented. -- Tib42 —Preceding undated comment added 06:48, 31 October 2012 (UTC)

Structure question

A bit of an aside, but almost all articles I've ever worked on with an awards section list awards in a bullet point format, not as a table. Is it possible that a table is viewed as more formal, and ought to have a higher hurdle for inclusion? Would it help if the award list were converted to a bullet point list?--SPhilbrick(Talk) 16:55, 31 December 2012 (UTC)

New Award discussion

Let's have a discussion on all of the awards that Tib42 has recently tried to introduce to the article.

James C. Morgan Global Humanitarian Award

[7][8] http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/05/11/idUS243682+11-May-2012+MW20120511

Adding another citation from Reuters above. As I said above, past winners of this award include Bill Gates. Al Gore, Queen_Rania_of_Jordan, and others. -- Tib42. —Preceding undated comment added 07:12, 15 December 2012 (UTC)

Fortune's 12 Greatest Entrepreneurs of our Time

[9][10][11]

This is self-explanatory. The list also includes Steve Jobs, Mark Zuckerberg, [[Bill Gates], Sam Walton, etc. The source is also a well reputed establishment. -- Tib42. —Preceding undated comment added 07:13, 15 December 2012 (UTC)

CNBC Lifetime Achievement Award

[12][13]

• Oppose: Viewing the sources reveals that this is purely regional Ryan Vesey 02:46, 14 December 2012 (UTC)

Ryan, so what if this is regional? Does this mean you would discount awards given in specific countries as well (e.g. the medal of freedom in the US, the Padma awards in India, etc.) since they are purely regional? The fact is the source giving the award is a well reputed organization and that should suffice. - Tib42.

• Support I don't see the "regional" argument as persuasive. I would understand if we were talking about a small region of the US, for example, but the region in question is Asia. If that's too limiting, then there isn't a single US based award worthy of inclusion in Wikipedia.--SPhilbrick(Talk) 17:01, 31 December 2012 (UTC)

Forbes Lifetime Achievement Award

[14]

• Oppose for now: The article is written by N. R. Narayana Murthy himself and doesn't explicitly state what award he won. Ryan Vesey 02:46, 14 December 2012 (UTC)

Ryan, you are right. That was not the right reference. Here are the correct links --- Tib42 (talk) 17:20, 24 December 2012 (UTC)

[15] [16]

TIME Magazine's 60 Asian Heros

[17] [18]

Self explanatory stuff -- Tib42. Oppose with a caveat. We normally think of an award as something bestowed by an organization, often (but not always) with a regular schedule. Usually with some specific criteria, usually with some specific ceremony at which the award is presented. The Time Magazine selection of 60 'Asian heroes' doesn't fit what we normally think of as an award. It was a special article associated with the 60th anniversary of the Magazine. However, while I don't think it qualifies as an award, it may well qualify as an entry in the article, but better as a stand-alone paragraph, or part of a larger one. Being identified as one of the 60 people from Asia who have "who have shaped our destiny and our times" is an incredibly select group. Time magazine clearly qualifies as an RS. It may be that there aren't many references in other RSs, if only because media outlets are loathe to give too much coverage to their competition. I think this should not be entered as a single entry in a table or list, but developed into a short discussion of how Time chose the individuals, and a brief excerpt of the Time commentary on Narayana Murthy. I'll also note that when the Economic Times mentioned this distinction, Narayana Murthy was one of only five individuals mentioned in the lead.--SPhilbrick(Talk) 21:05, 31 December 2012 (UTC)

Asia's Businessman of the Year by Fortune Magazine

This is pretty self-explanatory. Past winners include the CEO of Sony, Singapore Airlines, etc. and other well-known Asian company CEOs. -- Tib42

Wharton Business School Dean's Medal

[19] Again, this is self-explanatory. This is the highest honor given by Wharton (University of Pennsylvania). -- Tib42

Support inclusion Based upon (in part):

• The article on Dhirubhai Ambani includes June 1998 - "Dean's Medal" by The Wharton School, University of Pennsylvania, for setting an outstanding example of leadership.
• The article on Chao Kuang Piu includes: Wharton School Dean's Medal, awarded by the Wharton School of the University of Pennsylvania

Recipients include:

• Alan Greenspan
• Sukanto Tanoto
• Álvaro Uribe Former president of Columbia.
• Shimon Peres--SPhilbrick(Talk) 16:49, 31 December 2012 (UTC)

• I would support this if there was some way to prove he received it. The only sources I found when I looked for this a few months ago mentioned that he was going to receive it (as does the one linked above). When you go to Wharton's website to look for the official list, he's not listed [20]. Ryan Vesey 22:23, 31 December 2012 (UTC)

That's an excellent point: I have written to Wharton to see if they can shed light on this issue.--SPhilbrick(Talk) 01:57, 1 January 2013 (UTC)

I checked the Penn Directory and a Narayana Murthy is listed as having a courtesy affiliation with Penn. Since he did not attend school there, that would lend some credence to the idea that he received an award from Penn, but that's purely speculation. Ryan Vesey 06:39, 1 January 2013 (UTC)

Hmm, it appears he's on the board of overseers of Wharton [21]. Ryan Vesey 06:42, 1 January 2013 (UTC)

The Nikkei Asia Prize

[22] This is a high honor given by the the Japanese stock exchange and its past awardess include the current Prime Minister of India Manmohan Singh and several well-known scientists, policy makers, and change agents in Asia. -- Tib42

The Max Schidheiny Freedom Prize

[23] Past awardees include Kofi Annan, Jagdish Bhagwati, Lennart Meri, and several other heads of states, intellectuals, and policy agents. --Tib42

Close call but leaning Oppose On the positive side, the award is listed in an article: St._Gallen_Symposium#Freedom-Prize_of_the_Max_Schmidheiny-Foundation And some of the recipients are prestigious:

• Kofi Annan
• Nicolas Hayek
• International Committee of the Red Cross
• Jorma Ollila
• Muhammad Yunus

On the other hand, many of the references are to PR releases, rather than full news articles, and the award was abandoned in 2003. My review wasn't exhaustive, and more evidence could change my opinion, but based upon what I saw, this one doesn't qualify.--SPhilbrick(Talk) 17:57, 31 December 2012 (UTC)

Ernst and Young World Entrepreneur of the Year

[24] [25]

Past and current winners include entrepreneurs world over. See [26] --Tib42

Ryan Vesey, I wish to highlight the hypocrisy of Kkm010 to the point where it has turned into disruptive editing. This is the third time we are discussing these awards and each time we reach consensus this user turns it all around and without discussing it here rolls back changes. He/she is objecting to awards listed here but makes no objections to awards listed in article he/she seems to have actively edited. For example, consider some articles on famous Indian businessmen. Kkm010 has edited Lakshmi Mittal but raised no objections whatsoever to the awards listed there including the regional awards or those given by steel companies. Similarly he/she has not raised any objections to the article Dhirubhai Ambani that he/she has actively edited. This article has several unknown awards given by unknown organizations without any citations. And yet, Kkm010 seems to have made no effort in raising objects. Whereas here we have had such long discussions and yet he/she without reason has rolled back changes. This is very unfair and can only lead me to believe that Kkm010 has it out for the person mentioned in this article and is settling some sort of corporate/personal scores.

Ryan Vesey, I am still waiting for a response on the discussion above. This is the third time we are doing this and nobody seems to want to discuss this topic and yet the changes are always rolled back. If anybody would like to raise issues, please do so here. We need some kind of a time out for these discussions. Tib42 (talk) 09:18, 21 December 2012 (UTC)

ET Lifetime Achievement Award

N. R. Narayana Murthy was the recipient in 2007. Note that the ET Awards have their own article Economic Times Awards. While it is conceivable this discussion will lead to a rethinking of that status, it would be quite odd if we concluded that an award was notable enough to deserve an article, yet someone receiving the award didn't deserve mention. One odd note, not all years have been completed in the linked article, and one of the missing years is 2007.

• Lifetime Achievement Award: N R Narayana Murthy

--SPhilbrick(Talk) 16:36, 31 December 2012 (UTC)

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Assessment comment

The comment(s) below were originally left at Talk:N. R. Narayana Murthy/Comments, and are posted here for posterity. Following several discussions in past years, these subpages are now deprecated. The comments may be irrelevant or outdated; if so, please feel free to remove this section.

The photograph is not of Mr. N. R. Narayan Murthy but that of his CFO T. V. Mohandas Pai. Rsrinidhi (talk) 11:05, 17 October 2008 (UTC) rsrinidhi

Last edited at 11:05, 17 October 2008 (UTC). Substituted at 00:44, 30 April 2016 (UTC)

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Further reading

• Gupta, Indra (2004). India's 50 most illustrious women (2nd ed.). New Delhi : Icon Publications.

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Requested move 12 May 2020

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: not moved. (closed by non-admin page mover) Jerm (talk) 18:09, 19 May 2020 (UTC)

---

N. R. Narayana Murthy → N.R. Narayana Murthy – Per website.[27] Unreal7 (talk) 17:09, 12 May 2020 (UTC)

• Oppose as per MOS:INITIALS that says An initial is capitalized and is followed by a full point (period) and a space (e.g. J. R. R. Tolkien), unless: an overwhelming majority of reliable sources use that variant style for that person. ~Amkgp ✉ 19:32, 12 May 2020 (UTC)
• Oppose as above. The way this is done is merely house style. This is ours. If we changed this depending on how it was commonly done in sources we'd have to move almost all British people who use initials to spaces and no full stops, as that's how it's commonly done in Britain. However, it's best to have consistency. -- Necrothesp (talk) 14:32, 13 May 2020 (UTC)

---

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.