Talk:Muhammad Ali/Archive 4

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Feedback request

• Mac Dreamstate, Stevietheman, MShabazz, DonFB, Spicemix, ToonIsALoon, Randy Kryn, Malik Shabazz
• I'd appreciate some feedback on this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Soham321/Ali
• Specifically, does this deserve inclusion in the main article? Or should this content go into a new article? If the latter, what should be the title of the new article?
• My own preference is that this material is an important enough component of Ali's life to be included in the main article (perhaps with some condensation), although I have some concern about the article length becoming too long. Soham321 (talk) 07:00, 18 December 2016 (UTC)

• I think Ali's relationship with Malcolm X was probably the most important one in his life, despite its brevity. That's probably too much detail for this article, though. Maybe a new article about the relationship is warranted.
  By the way, see what I wrote on the subject last summer. — MShabazz ^Talk/_Stalk 15:43, 18 December 2016 (UTC)

Malik Shabazz, although i agree that Ali's relationship with Malcolm was very special, I believe his relationship with Elijah Muhammad was also very special. After all, he had chosen Elijah over Malcolm when Elijah and Malcolm were in conflict. Ali also went on to continue having respect for Elijah in later life despite rejecting many of Elijah's beliefs. Further, the fact that Ali went on to choose Sufism as his chosen religious and spiritual path means that he had evolved from whatever Malcolm had to offer. There is no indication of Malcolm having any interest in Sufism. The book "Blood Brothers: The Fatal Friendship Between Muhammad Ali and Malcolm X" from which you give a lengthy extract has been criticized for leaving out important details:

Also, their ending feels rushed. While Ali’s regrets about his treatment of Malcolm X, articulated in a book of “reflections” he co-authored with his daughter in 2003, are duly recorded here, the disposition of the paternity lawsuits filed against Elijah Muhammad before his death, in February 1975, so central to Elijah’s split with Malcolm X, goes unreported. Similarly, very little space is devoted to Ali’s conversion, following Elijah’s death, to Sunni Islam, and none at all to his conversion, three decades later, to Sufi Islam.

And the authors make no attempt to connect Ali’s immersion in the NOI — which persisted to the end of his boxing career, with Elijah’s son Herbert Muhammad as Ali’s omnipotent manager — to the boxer’s ultimate fate: fighting too long, taking too many blows to the head, and having his mouth and movement, once his hallmarks, cruelly stilled by Parkinson’s syndrome. Are we to assume that Ali was receiving sound advice from Herbert Muhammad when the ex-champ, bloated at 38 and coming off a two-year layoff, signed to fight Larry Holmes? Was Ali at that point being driven solely by his own boredom and ego, or by financial straits worsened by the untold sums he had been compelled to fork over to the NOI? Here is the ultimate evidence that Malcolm X failed to instill in Ali a capacity for judging the motivations of those around him.

https://www.nationalreview.com/nrd/articles/431161/champ-and-mr-x

If this material is deemed too detail oriented, I'd like to see a separate article outlining the evolution and progression of Ali's religious and spiritual beliefs. Soham321 (talk) 16:14, 18 December 2016 (UTC)

Thank you for the link to the book review. Unfortunately it won't display properly on my phone, so I'll have to read it later.

The reason I wrote what I did is that there is no relationship with Elijah Muhammad without Malcolm X. The fact that Ali became a Sufi 40 years after Malcolm's assassination tells me nothing about their relationship. But it's my opinion -- note that I started my comment with "I think" -- and I'm not going to get into a pissing match over it. You asked for feedback and I provided some . — MShabazz ^Talk/_Stalk 16:52, 18 December 2016 (UTC)

I think it is far too much detail for the article; it reads like an in-depth magazine profile of these aspects of Ali's life. Interesting material, to be sure, and nicely constructed. I haven't tried to make microscopic comparisons, but major points seem to be already included in the article, summarized briefly in each instance by a sentence or two. Perhaps the material could be added to the Malcolm X and Elijah Muhammed articles. I think the only way to include all of it together would be to create a standalone article. Title could be: "Religious and spiritual beliefs of Mohammad Ali." The material you present, however, also covers details of the Ali-Malc X personal relationship and their views on U.S. society, in addition to the development of Ali's religious beliefs. I'm not sure exactly how all that information could be characterized in the title of a new article. DonFB (talk) 02:26, 19 December 2016 (UTC)

DonFB, If I create a new article titled "Religious and spiritual beliefs of Mohammad Ali" I would be excluding some of the material in the present writeup, and including some additional material. Soham321 (talk) 03:12, 19 December 2016 (UTC)

I agree with DonFB that it is a little magaziney and that it's too long for the main article. I agree a new article would be better, perhaps tightened up a little, and care could be taken to mention all the main points in the main article. Would Religious and political beliefs of MA cover the right ground? Spicemix (talk) 15:18, 20 December 2016 (UTC)

I prefer Don's title of "Religious and spiritual beliefs of Mohammad Ali" since the material about the progression/evolution of his religious and spiritual beliefs is sufficient to deserve an article on its own. Politicals beliefs of MA, in my opinion, deserve a separate article. You would have to include material about the political stance that he took during his younger days (because of which he was banned for boxing for three and half years), and would have to include the fact that he had gone on to endorse Reagan: Link. I suppose any article about his political beliefs should mention every presidential candidate he ever endorsed. It should also give details about his views on racism and incidents in which he experienced racism first hand during his younger days (which may have been an important reason as to why he became attracted to NOI). And also the fact that Ali, after he became the heavyweight champion, may have played a significant role in combating racism. Soham321 (talk) 16:18, 20 December 2016 (UTC)

I condensed and tweaked the original writeup and intend to use this for the new article "Religious and spiritual beliefs of Mohammad Ali". See Ali's Religion for the new writeup. Pinging DonFB, Spicemix and MShabazz for feedback. (This is too important a topic, in my opinion, for me to create this article unilaterally.) Not pinging the other regulars since they didn't respond last time (presumably because of lack of interest in this topic).Soham321 (talk) 15:08, 22 December 2016 (UTC)

Thanks Soham, you've done a good job, I think it merits standing alone. Can you say what you judge the spiritual, as opposed to the religious, elements of the content to be, if the title is to include both? Spicemix (talk) 21:34, 22 December 2016 (UTC)

Spicemix, I used the word "spiritualism" to denote Sufism. Go to the WP page on Sufism and do a control-F on 'spiritualism' and you will see 42 matches. Doing a control-F in this article for 'mystic' gives 24 matches. You also have some idea about this from the quote of his friend and biographer which I gave in the writeup. The relevant passage about sufism in the CNN article is:

"But there still remains an element of intrigue surrounding the three-time world heavyweight champion and Olympic gold medalist -- as his biographer and lifetime friend Davis Miller tells CNN....Early on Ali was closely involved with the often militant pro-African American goals of Nation of Islam, but later in life switched to a more mystical Muslim sect. Ali announced that he is a Sufi around 2005, saying that of all of the sects of Islam, he feels the closest connection to Sufism," says Miller, whose book "Approaching Ali" was released in late 2015. "Sufism is arguably the most peaceful sect of any major or minor religion. Sufis believe that to purposely harm any person is to harm all of humanity, to harm each of us and to damage the world. "It is the perfect fit for Ali, who had been living in the ways that Sufis do for decades before he'd heard of the religion. "Few people have heard about the profound ways Ali's faith has evolved over the years. He has been a world soul for many decades; he has grown from separatist to universalist." http://edition.cnn.com/2016/04/28/sport/muhammad-ali-five-things-boxing/

• Also, I mentioned in the writeup that his daughter, who co-authored his biography 'Soul of a Butterfly', says he developed an interest in Sufism after reading the works of Inayat Khan. I find 10 matches if I do a control-F on 'Spiritualism' in the WP Inayat Khan article.

• Sufism is a very distinct religious sect and quite different from orthodox Islam. The distinctive feature in sufism is that sufis believe that it is possible to attain some kind of a mystical communion or union with God through some kind of mystical ecstasy. (Sufis claim the mystical ecstasy can be achieved through the medium of music.) In orthodox Islam, and also in most religions which postulate a personal God, there is a very clear demarcation/distinction between the individual and the absolute (God), and talking of a union or communion of the individual with God (in which the individual and the absolute(God) become indistinguishable and undifferentiable) is considered blasphemous.

• It was important to give details of the Nation of Islam as taught by Elijah Muhammad, and as understood by Ali. But Sufism is well understood, and the different orders only have very minor differences amongst themselves chiefly pertaining to which Sufi saint's teachings they claim to follow.

• This much said, I have no objection to the title being 'Religious Beliefs of Muhammad Ali' (dropping the 'spiritual' word). It could be argued that the word 'spiritual' is contained within the word 'religious' in that spiritualism is a particular kind of religious viewpoint. Soham321 (talk) 22:19, 22 December 2016 (UTC)

Thanks, I think Sufism is part of the religion of Islam. It's true it's highly spiritual, but still within that framework of Islam and religion, so I think spiritual in the article name is unnecessary. I don't think it impacts on the article, but note that spiritualism is contacting the spirits of the dead, different from spirituality. Cheers! Spicemix (talk) 19:52, 23 December 2016 (UTC)

Thank you. I created the article and added it to the template. Thanks also for the clarification about spiritual vs spiritualism. Soham321 (talk) 20:26, 23 December 2016 (UTC)

Template query

could we remove Malcolm X from the Muhammad Ali template: {{Muhammad Ali}}. Malcolm X is being mentioned in the Ali article, and if we also mention him in the template we would be obliged to mention many other people in the template including Elijah Muhammad, Warith Deen Muhammad, and Inayat Khan. Soham321 (talk) 20:50, 23 December 2016 (UTC)

Please go ahead, and thank you for your tireless and expert work. Spicemix (talk) 20:46, 24 December 2016 (UTC)

I'll give it another day and if nobody objects I'll do it. Thanks for the kind words and merry christmas and happy new year to you and all regulars editing this page.Soham321 (talk) 22:40, 24 December 2016 (UTC)

New article

i had an idea about a new article about Ali. Not decided yet about what the title will be, but this article is about Ali's health. it contains the following information:

• 1. Assessment of Ali's general health and physique by Ferdie Pacheco before the three and a half year layover.
• 2. Assessment of Ali's general health and physique by Ferdie Pacheco after the three and a half year layover. Detoriation in Ali's health. Ali's hands become soft and he develops bursitis because of which Pacheco has to give him injections on his hands(between each webbing of two adjacent fingers) to numb them so that Ali feels no pain during a fight. Ali's inability to move like he used to move before. His legs had "gone".
• 3. Ali's health just before and during the Holmes fight. Since Pacheco was no longer his physician (Pacheco left Ali's entourage after the Shavers fight since Ali would not take his advise and stop fighting), there was one other doctor arranged by Herbert Muhammad who was Herbert's friend and who was highly incompetent according to Pacheco. This friend of Herbert misdiagnosed Ali and started giving him medication for a thyroid problem even though Ali did not have any thyroid problem. Besides everything else, the thyroid medication he took before the Holmes fight affected Ali's ability to fight. For one thing, it impeded Ali's body to release sweat. Ali was also given some diuretics to lose weight by Herbert's friend before the Holmes fight, and thinking them to be similar to vitamins, he overdosed on them which caused problems.
• 4. Ali given a clean bill of health before the Holmes fight and again before the Drama in Bahama fight by top medical institutes in the US (they failed to diagnose the fact that Parkinson had already begun; a british doctor had predicted that Ali was suffering from neurological damage just by observing Ali on television. The slurring of speech had already begun.)
• 5. Diagnosis of Parkinson
• 6. Gradual decline of health. Besides the obvious problems (slurring of speech, frozen facial expressions, inability to move properly) the little things like having to wear special wide angled shoes to maintain his balance.
• 7. Pacheco's lament after Ali's death that had Ali stopped fighting earlier he would probably have been alive today.

Wanted some advise and feedback on how to proceed, and also on what the article should contain and what its title should be. Soham321 (talk) 09:36, 28 December 2016 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 2 March 2017

84.143.248.33 (talk) 09:29, 2 March 2017 (UTC)

Not done: as you have not requested a change.
Please request your change in the form "Please replace XXX with YYY" or "Please add ZZZ between PPP and QQQ".
Please also cite reliable sources to back up your request, without which no information should be added to, or changed in, any article. - Arjayay (talk) 12:21, 2 March 2017 (UTC)

Ali refused to serve because he feared being killed by the Nation of Islam, per Paul Beston WSJ

The Truth About Muhammad Ali and the Draft, WSJ 4/28/17

Interesting op-ed, with good quotes. Should be added to the article, I think. If it's paywalled, I'd be happy to send a copy. --Pete Tillman (talk) 18:22, 28 April 2017 (UTC)

It's in the opinion section -- that tells us all we need to know about whether it's included in this encyclopedia article. However, if such an opinion gains wider currency in reliable sources, we would be obligated to seriously consider it at that point. Stevie is the man! ^{Talk • Work} 19:04, 28 April 2017 (UTC)

Stevietheman is right -- as an opinion column, it can be cited as a source for its author's opinion but not for facts. See WP:RSOPINION. However, the byline at the bottom says the author has a book that will be published in September. His book, when it is available, may be a reliable source for facts. — MShabazz ^Talk/_Stalk 12:40, 29 April 2017 (UTC)

When did he change his name to Muhammad Ali?

Could someone clarify when he changed his name to Muhammad Ali? DBlomgren (talk) 02:38, 6 May 2017 (UTC)

March 1964. When Cassius Clay joined the Nation of Islam, which he announced publicly in February 1964 although he had almost certainly joined the group earlier, he took the name Cassius X in accordance with NOI custom of the time. (See Malcolm X#Prison for an explanation of the meaning of the "X".) Malcolm X, who had "fished" Clay (recruited him into the NOI), was being forced out of the organization, and he tried to convince Clay that he should join him in leaving the group. Elijah Muhammad knew this and, to entice Clay to stay, offered him his "true Islamic name" of Muhammad Ali, something he hadn't offered Malcolm X (who had been working in the Nation for a dozen years) or Louis X (later known as Louis Farrakhan). It must have worked, because Ali took the name and stayed in the NOI when Malcolm X left. You can read Ali's misty-eyed account of it here or a more scholarly account here. — Malik Shabazz ^Talk/_Stalk 05:19, 6 May 2017 (UTC)

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Semi-protected edit request on 23 May 2017

Stallion a2 (talk) 12:52, 23 May 2017 (UTC)

Not done: Empty request. Strawberry4Ever (talk) 13:07, 23 May 2017 (UTC)

Kevin Casey fight

Ali's son-in-law Kevin Casey is set for UFC 199 tomorrow. Also happens to be his hometown. Also happens to be fighting another guy nicknamed King. Triple dramatic moment of sorts, but neither this article nor Casey's mentions the relation at all. So I'll just leave this here for someone else to decide to include or not. Post-death sources connecting the dots are scant, but stuff will probably show up soon. InedibleHulk (talk) 06:27, 4 June 2016 (UTC)

Also, Norton and Ali's daughters are apparently best friends. That seems somewhat notable. InedibleHulk (talk) 06:31, 4 June 2016 (UTC)

No mention of 3rd wife

why no mention by name or date of marriage of his 3rd wife, Veronica Porsche Ali, mother of Laila, altho mentions Laila and info on her. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.231.27.254 (talk) 06:19, 4 June 2016‎ UTC

Suicide rescue

Is this important enough? i think so. he rescued a suicidal person. This Day in History: Muhammad Ali saves suicidal man, January 21, 2016, 9:01 PM — Preceding unsigned comment added by Mercurywoodrose (talk • contribs) 05:19, 4 June 2016 UTC

Cause of his Parkinson's--boxing, or something else, or no cause at all?

The article currently says: "In 1984, Ali was diagnosed with Parkinson's syndrome, which his doctors attributed to boxing-related brain injuries." This needs a source, and may not be true at all. Repeated head-trauma is only WEAKLY linked to subsequent Parkinsonian symptoms, and Parkinson's disease can be caused by many many different factors, and often has no cause at all. If Muhammad Ali's doctors claimed to know for sure that his illness was caused by his boxing, then they were way out of line. At very least, we need a source for this. HandsomeMrToad (talk) 00:52, 18 August 2017 (UTC)

"Oldest living world heavyweight champion"

Is this really a sports record that needs to be in the (bloated) succession boxes at the bottom of the article? — Malik Shabazz ^Talk/_Stalk 02:57, 21 September 2017 (UTC)

I have no opinion on its inclusion, but I did just make the box collapsible at the very least. Mac Dreamstate (talk) 20:47, 21 September 2017 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 3 November 2017

Please change all instances of 'Clay' when by itself and replace with 'Ali' because he no longer bore the name Cassius Clay by the time he was 22; birth names and gender profiles at birth are not the correct way of referring to someone in third-person; current, corrected, or last-known names and chosen gender-based pronouns are the proper way to refer to a someone. For example, gender-neutral acting professional are called "they" throughout their autobiographies. In short, Cassius Clay references are acceptable; where a text reads only his last name, Clay, it should be replaced with 'Ali'. Maryandroid7 (talk) 05:05, 3 November 2017 (UTC)

Not done. I believe you're mistaken. Please see MOS:BIO#Changed names and MOS:ID. References in the article to Ali before he joined the Nation of Islam and changed his name should use the name by which he was known at that time, which was Clay. If there are any references in the article to Ali after he changed his name that use Clay, they are errors; please point them out. — MShabazz ^Talk/_Stalk 12:19, 3 November 2017 (UTC)

Racist views

The article states the Nation Of Islam classed white people as devils but does not mention the fact that Ali himself stated this opinion on numerous occasions. He also said that black people who "mess with" (have sex with) white people should be killed.

In his auto-biography his first wife complains that one of the reasons they split is because of his views about white people being devils, and in it his white friend (and corner man + physician) asks why Ali didn't trust him and his other white corner man (both of whom he had known for years) and he replies that he didn't trust white people.

Without the full story of his personality this article appears somewhat whitewashed.

I agree that his views need to be shown fully on the page, in order to be as accurate as possible. Daddyadolf (talk) 01:12, 3 September 2017 (UTC)

This ties into some of his controversial views on civil rights, he was a segregationist, saying (and I unfortunately don't know the exactly quote) something along the lines of "in the jungle, the tigers go with tigers and the lions go with lions, we just want to be with our own kind".

I feel like the controversy of his viewpoints warrants a discussion, but I'm not sure if this article should describe his own views as racist, he was still a civil rights activist, he just aligned himself more with the blact militancy of groups like the Nation of Islam then with the peace and love based approach of Martin Luther King Jr. and his followers. — Preceding unsigned comment added by OddTetrapod (talk • contribs) 15:18, 13 November 2017 (UTC)

Title Photo

I feel like the photo at the top of the article resembles a mugshot. It might be my personal implicit biases (being a white kid growing up in a white community with only white neighbors and classmates has forced my preconceptions to be formed by the media rather then actual people, which has left me to have associations about African American people that I'm not proud of), but it makes him look almost like a thug, not a famous activist and athlete. If instead we used the famous photo of his famous victory against sonny liston might better put him in context, as well as showcase the most famous image of him and one of the most famous sports photographs of all time. — Preceding unsigned comment added by OddTetrapod (talk • contribs) 15:28, 13 November 2017 (UTC)

Hello OddTetrapod. Unfortunately, Wikipedia's guideline about non-free content limits our ability to use images that are under copyright. In essence, we're only able to use images of Ali that appear on Wikimedia Commons. You can take a look at those images yourself to see if you can find a better one. (Keep in mind that an image can be cropped to focus on Ali's face.) — Malik Shabazz ^Talk/_Stalk 04:32, 14 November 2017 (UTC)

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Personal Life

I was watching a documentary titled "Muhammad Ali: The Whole Story" and one of the people interviewed is singer Dee Dee Sharp, she goes into detail about her engagement with Ali. It also features old footage of them in a joint interview. I see no mention of his first engagement on his page. I suggest to add: Ali was engaged to singer Dee Dee Sharp before he converted to the Muslim faith.

Also, according to his first wife Sonji Roi, Ali left her after Elijah Muhammad told her he had to choose between her or the Nation of Islam.Twixister (talk) 15:42, 21 November 2017 (UTC)

I found the documentary on YouTube. She talks about the engagement @7:15 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EVskzafcP08Twixister (talk) 16:43, 21 November 2017 (UTC)

The exact quote from the article says "singer Dee Dee Sharp (who was planning to marry Ali before he converted to the Muslim faith)." In the documentary she says after Ali proposed he told her she would have to speak with brother Malcolm [X]. Malcolm told her she'd have to become a Muslim but her mother refused.Twixister (talk) 18:06, 21 November 2017 (UTC)

References

• Watch - and read the full transcript - of Muhammad Ali's legendary interview with Michael Parkinson : In 1971 the boxing legend sat and chatted to Michael Parkinson about his career, his beliefs and his poetry

64.175.41.122 (talk) 09:53, 16 December 2017 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 17 February 2018

Mohammed Ali's stance isn't Orthodox, it's Muslim Sunni! DejaVu3891 (talk) 14:18, 17 February 2018 (UTC)

 Not done: as you have not cited reliable sources to back up your request, without which no information should be added to, or changed in, any article. - Arjayay (talk) 16:12, 17 February 2018 (UTC)

"Orthodox" refers to his boxing style, not religion. Hover or click on orthodox to see its meaning in this article. DonFB (talk) 00:19, 18 February 2018 (UTC)

Muhammad Ali partner Alan Amron created the Beatles committee to reunite

• In 1976 Alan Amron created The international committee to reunite the Beatlespartnering with world famous sports legend Muhammad Ali asking everyone in the world for a dollar.The notion of a Beatles reunion under Ali’s sponsorship came from Alan Amron and Joel Sacher, two Long Island, New York businessmen who formed the International Committee to Reunite the Beatles last year “They were the catalysts,” said Spiros Anthony. Ivetsaksone (talk) 06:11, 2 April 2018 (UTC)

References

Semi-protected edit request on 8 June 2018

The Total viewers in the Television viewership section is 9,945,200,000 not 2,000,000,000 135.19.4.146 (talk) 06:09, 8 June 2018 (UTC)

 Done L293D (☎ • ✎) 11:54, 8 June 2018 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 19 August 2018

It turns out Muhammad Ali had 10 children not 9 due to a secret affair, according to this article https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/muhammad-alis-secret-daughter-begs-4256662. 178.232.177.7 (talk) 13:31, 19 August 2018 (UTC)

 Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. The Mirror is not a reliable source for this sort of information. NiciVampireHeart 06:22, 20 August 2018 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 30 August 2018

I would like to edit in more about his religion i would like to abriviate on it by talking how he would pray and what being a muslim made him give up.I would also wirte how becoming a muslim changed him for the better and how it effected his carer,family,boxing and fanbase.I can do this as i have good connections with his so Muhammed Ali Jr.

Yours sincerly Robert Glen Mysticelite576 (talk) 16:27, 30 August 2018 (UTC)

 Not done: requests for decreases to the page protection level should be directed to the protecting admin or to Wikipedia:Requests for page protection if the protecting admin is not active or has declined the request. - FlightTime (open channel) 16:30, 30 August 2018 (UTC)

Boxing Style

This section requires more balance. It ignores Ali's various flaws as a fighter and makes him seem invincible:

- His vulnerability to left hooks (due to holding his right glove low). 3 of his 4 official knockdowns were from left hooks (Cooper, Banks, Frazier). Frazier exploited this flaw time and again in their bouts.

- His lack of in-fighting and body punching ability.

- Ali was great against big one-dimensional punchers who followed him in a straight line. He was much less effective against smaller, quick men with good boxing skills (see Doug Jones and Jimmy Young).

- Average punching power. Despite what that Charlie Powell quote implies, Ali was NOT known as a puncher. Fighters known for having weak chins went many rounds against Ali without being KOd. Larry Holmes: "Ali hit like a butterfly, Joe Frazier hit like a bee."

- His tendency to grab and hold opponents by the neck (especially in the latter half of his career).

Eddie Futch (trainer of the first two men to defeat Ali) on Ali:

“You may not believe it, but there's a lot of things Ali can't do. He throws a sub par uppercut. His left hook is adequate, not that great, mainly because of his eight two inch reach. He wants no part of inside fighting.”

"His defense was monolithic. He pulled back. He very seldom ducked, he very seldom blocked a punch. And he never threw a body punch." — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A00:23C4:FD86:F400:9DAE:12D1:3054:F56B (talk) 00:12, 21 October 2018 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 31 January 2019

change orthodox to muslim Ambiguous lines (talk) 21:22, 31 January 2019 (UTC)

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. – Jonesey95 (talk) 05:50, 1 February 2019 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 25 February 2019

184.167.56.30 (talk) 02:13, 25 February 2019 (UTC)

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. Roadguy2 (talk) 04:21, 25 February 2019 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 27 February 2019

aaliyah butler is requesting to edit it because it is some mistakes in this article that are false information because u contacted his daughter laila ali and she said this most of the stuff in the article is false information--170.235.222.105 (talk) 14:23, 27 February 2019 (UTC)--170.235.222.105 (talk) 14:23, 27 February 2019 (UTC)--170.235.222.105 (talk) 14:23, 27 February 2019 (UTC)--170.235.222.105 (talk) 14:23, 27 February 2019 (UTC)--170.235.222.105 (talk) 14:23, 27 February 2019 (UTC)NHIndustries NH90

File:Jesus

is ou lord and savor

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. ‑‑ElHef (Meep?) 15:03, 27 February 2019 (UTC)

Split proposed

The boxing related content has become substantial enough to create a split article. The proposed article is Boxing career of Muhammad Ali. At least seven sections of this article can be combined into a single article:

• Muhammad Ali § Professional boxing
• Muhammad Ali § Boxing style
• Muhammad Ali § Ali and his contemporaries
• Muhammad Ali § Ranking in boxing history
• Muhammad Ali § Awards and accolades
• Muhammad Ali § Professional boxing record
• Muhammad Ali § Television viewership

The article would only need two sentences as a starter summary statement for the lead. Mitchumch (talk) 04:49, 4 April 2019 (UTC)

With two exceptions, I agree with the proposed splits, and I would add another possible split: Vietnam War and Resistance to the Draft (retaining a summary style paragraph and link to the split). I think the Professional Boxing section should remain, focusing as it does on the essence of his career; the main article is and should be built around that section. The Professional Boxing Record table preferably should remain, again, because it is so integral to who he was; but I would not actively oppose splitting it. As I think the Professional Boxing section should remain, the proposed title, "Boxing Career....", is therefore not exactly an accurate title for the spinoff. I'm uncertain, however, what a good title would be, since the spinoff really amounts to a catch-all for several topics that are tangential to the main narrative. Spit ballin': "Influence of Muhammed Ali"? DonFB (talk) 23:44, 5 April 2019 (UTC)

DonFB Do you think I want to remove all of the content about Ali's boxing life? I want to ensure there is no miscommunication. Mitchumch (talk) 05:21, 6 April 2019 (UTC)

No, I wouldn't think you want to. So now, I'm not sure I understand your proposal. Do you propose removing all the above-named sections and re-combining them in a new "Boxing Career" article (my comment above is based on that scenario), or do you propose retaining the above-named sections in the original article and removing everything else and combining those removals in the new Boxing Career article? DonFB (talk) 06:32, 6 April 2019 (UTC)

DonFB

Point 1: Intent of split: I want to remove all (with copying of "Professional Boxing" section) of the above-named sections and re-combine them in a new "Boxing Career" article. The "Other appearances" sub-section within the "Television viewership" is not boxing-related content. Therefore, it should remain in the main article.

Point 2: Clarify aim of split: However, I want to retain the highlights of those above named sections and retain them in the main article. I agree with you that boxing was the essence of Ali's career. The purpose of a split like this is to reduce the size of the main article. But, it also allows the "Boxing Career" article to become an aspect article. That aspect would focus solely on Ali's life as a boxer.

Point 3: Professional Boxing section: This section should be copied into the "Boxing career" article while retaining most elements of this content in the main article. Excessive details on boxing are better placed in "Boxing career" article.

Point 4: Professional Boxing Record table: Only the most notable of boxing events from this section should appear in the main article. For example, major fights and losses. This table is too extensive to remain in the main article. It is best suited for the "Boxing career" article, because it is like a "Discography" or "Awards and nominations" section on a musicians article. Only the most notable elements should remain with a hatnote to the split article.

Point 5: Vietnam War and resistance to the draft section: This section is more appropriate for the main article. The rationale rest on it being more focused on Ali's opposition to the Vietnam War due to his religious objections. The consequences of his objections should be noted in the "Boxing career" article because of the impact on Ali's boxing career.

Point 6: Name of new article is modeled on Boxing career of Manny Pacquiao. The several topics that are being split from the main article share a common thread - Ali's boxing career. If there is another topic among "Professional boxing", "Boxing style", "Ali and his contemporaries" (only about Ali and Frazier), "Ranking in boxing history", "Awards and accolades" (overwhelmingly about boxing career), "Professional boxing record", and "Television viewership" (everything except "Other appearances") then I don't see it. Mitchumch (talk) 21:43, 6 April 2019 (UTC)

A split is a great idea. (I've not organized this article in the past just because I found it too unwieldy to deal with.) Would "Muhammad Ali boxing career" make it easier to find? Lindenfall (talk) 18:25, 6 April 2019 (UTC)

I only maintain the boxing record table, succession boxes and occasionally lead. I fully support a split to the proposed article title (similar to boxing career of Manny Pacquiao. Mac Dreamstate (talk) 18:44, 6 April 2019 (UTC)

Mitchumch, sounds reasonable, but I think the boxing career section in the main article should be considerably more substantial than it is in the Pacquiao main article, where the boxing career section is extremely abbreviated. DonFB (talk) 00:21, 7 April 2019 (UTC)

DonFB I completely agree. Pacquiao's main article has way too little content on his boxing career. That is why I said above in Point 3: Professional Boxing section "This section should be copied into the "Boxing career" article while retaining most elements of this content in the main article." I think the existing outline in the "Professional Boxing" section is good. If there is any extraneous content on boxing, then that content should go to the "Boxing career" article. Mitchumch (talk) 00:58, 7 April 2019 (UTC)

Right, and I did notice that you had proposed "retaining most elements" of the Pro Boxing content which is reassuring. I'm thinking it would be helpful to readers to have, in the main article, an explicit link to the section, Professional Boxing Record table, in the spinoff article. That enables readers wanting to see his complete record (or specific parts of it) to know where to find it and easily jump directly to it, rather than having only the general link to the spinoff. DonFB (talk) 03:15, 7 April 2019 (UTC)

DonFB An explicit link to the section works fine. Example, Boxing career of Muhammad Ali § Professional boxing record or Professional boxing record. Mitchumch (talk) 05:16, 7 April 2019 (UTC)

DonFB I promised "Professional boxing record" would be in the main article. That section was never removed from the main article. But, a Template:Main link has taken the place of the content. That is no different than an "Awards and nomination" or "Discography" section in an article about a musician or actor. Mitchumch (talk) 04:10, 16 April 2019 (UTC)

Promise kept. The section, however, had virtually disappeared, and I didn't even see that the heading, with new direct link to the Pro Record table, was still there. I am adding a new link in a more noticeable location, under the Main Article link, as I feel the Table is the single most important component of either article and is info many readers will want to find quickly with minimal fuss when they navigate to the namesake article. The existing skeletal section, far below, consisting only of the heading and direct link to the Table, could be removed entirely. DonFB (talk) 07:21, 16 April 2019 (UTC)

DonFB I combined the templates in "Professional boxing career" section and removed the section near bottom of article. How is that? Mitchumch (talk) 12:57, 16 April 2019 (UTC)

It works, though technically, the combined template links to only one article, not two, as the rendered template text denotes. But I'm glad to have the discrete direct link to the Table in a more visible location in the early part of the article. DonFB (talk) 13:42, 16 April 2019 (UTC)

Mac Dreamstate I moved the succession boxes to Boxing career of Muhammad Ali. It seemed more appropriately placed in that article. Mitchumch (talk) 18:15, 15 April 2019 (UTC)

Looking good. All it needs is for the lead to be padded out with the boxing-related content from this main article. Mac Dreamstate (talk) 20:24, 15 April 2019 (UTC)

This is a bad idea. He's known as a boxer. The boxing material should stay here. If you feel it's too long, split the Personal life section, the Ali and Frazier section and/or the Vietnam War and Resistance to the Draft section.--SaskatchewanSenator (talk) 23:14, 17 April 2019 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 25 June 2019

Hello. I wanted to add the arabic name of Muhammad Ali to his page, formerly to show respect in his decision to change his name to an Arabic one. Please do so. The edit I wanted to do was (Arabic: محمد علي).

If you don't speak the Arabic language and want to do a double check, you can use Google Translate for example. Or an Arabic colleague can double check for you. The name of Muhammad Ali in Arabic is widely known.

Thank you sincerely and my best. 213.93.79.18 (talk) 20:00, 25 June 2019 (UTC)

 Not done: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the {{edit semi-protected}} template. Begoon 20:22, 25 June 2019 (UTC)

Professional boxing record

The professional boxing record table section should be in the main Ali article. I'm not a wiki insider. Please keep in mind the perspevtive if the general reader--the boxing fan etc.

We are clicking around following links across boxing history via their records--who lost to whom, when etc. It is a TRAIL you are hiking on the wiki site. Now here at a "central peak" in the boxing mountsin range there is a massive wash out!  And its on purpose?  Not even a link for hikers to go "see ali prof boxibg record here." 

It's absurd--please have enough — Preceding unsigned comment added by 97.113.148.120 (talk) 06:11, 12 July 2019 (UTC)

 Not done. All that it takes is one click to get to the content you want to add back into to this biographical article. Cullen³²⁸ Let's discuss it 06:17, 12 July 2019 (UTC)

In this article (Muhammed Ali), you will see the section: 'Professional boxing'. Immediately below that heading, you will see:

Main articles: Boxing career of Muhammad Ali and professional boxing record

Click on 'professional boxing record' to be taken directly to Ali's full fight record (which is contained within the article named: 'Boxing career of Muhammed Ali'). DonFB (talk) 07:11, 12 July 2019 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 9 April 2020

I am requesting to add an edit to the part of the page on the Vietnam War, and Ali's resistance against the draft and the movement against the war. The part about Ali being charged guilty by the Appellate Court and the trial being moved to the Supreme Court skips from 1967- 1971; this misses what Ali was doing in that time period. Ali had been sentenced by the Appellate Court, but now he was out on bail; stripped of his heavyweight title and left by the Nation of Islam. Ali was the center of attention by many young people; all wishing to hear what he was going to say. As a result Ali decided to speak on 200 college Campuses and enlighten the young generation on his position. During this time in the late sixties Esquire magazine gave Ali five pages to do whatever he wanted with, with this he created a Political Manifesto. In this Manifesto he claimed the U.S. government should pay out reparations and instead of pouring 25 billion into the Vietnam War, the money should be given to build homes in southern states like Georgia, Alabama and Missouri. He contends that the white mans owes it to the black man. SAmico1 (talk) 14:45, 9 April 2020 (UTC)

Not done for now. It may be worthwhile to add something here, but it needs to be written neutrally and cleaned up with proper English. References should also ideally include page number(s) and be tied to specific statements more closely. If someone else wants to do the legwork here, they're certainly more than welcome, but I don't have access to the source, myself. –Deacon Vorbis (carbon • videos) 15:02, 9 April 2020 (UTC)

References

BLM

I recently made a bold edit removing a claim Ali supported Black lives matter. I tried to find the tweet but could not find it even though the article claims he did. I am suspicious of the article as it was posted 2 years after the fact and did not reference the twitter post. If the tweet does exist, please inform me. I want to verify that the claim is verifiable. What are your thoughts?Manabimasu (talk) 04:29, 24 June 2020 (UTC)

Nation of Islam

That eccentric cult was not Islamic, it merely appropriated the name. Later in life Ali became an adherent of mainstream Islam, after the death of Elijah Muhammad and the repudiation and disbanding of the Nation by his son, Wallace Deen Mohammed. Ali followed the son. On the page about Ali's religious views he is quoted: "[Wallace] learnt from his studies that his father wasn't teaching true Islam, and Wallace taught us the true meaning of the Quran," which was essentially Sunni Islam. This entry should be corrected to reflect the truth. Nicmart (talk) 04:39, 8 August 2020 (UTC)

The article appears to include the information. Is there specific text you disagree with; do you have specific wording you think would be more accurate? DonFB (talk) 06:36, 8 August 2020 (UTC)

Most attractive man in the world?

I'm sorry but how is a Parkinson interview a valid source for the claim that Ali was considered the most sexually attractive man in the world? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Bsylveste (talk • contribs) 04:12, 28 September 2020 (UTC)

When did he change his name?

When did Cassius Clay officially become Muhammad Ali?

I think that should be documented in this article. Thanks, DavidMCEddy (talk) 12:36, 25 November 2020 (UTC)

The 2nd and 3rd paragraphs in Personal Life → Religion and Beliefs → Affiliation with the Nation of Islam gives some detail about Ali's name change. He never officially changed his name in court, so it's not possible to specify a precise date. DonFB (talk) 03:50, 27 November 2020 (UTC)

Thanks. I just revised the lede based on what you said and what I read later in the article. I put {{cn}} after saying he, "never had his name changed legally". If you have a citation or think this is better stated some other way, please revise.

However, it seems to me that the lede should be more explicit than it was about an issue as important as a person's name! Thanks again, DavidMCEddy (talk) 05:47, 27 November 2020 (UTC)

Added ref to fulfill cn tag; Wiki-linked terms. DonFB (talk) 07:28, 27 November 2020 (UTC)

Thanks. DavidMCEddy (talk) 14:40, 27 November 2020 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 10 December 2020

I am requesting an edit to an image caption in section 2.2.3 'Main Bout'. The image caption says "Ali in court with promoter and lawyer Bob Arum, 1966". I don't know who that man next to Ali is, but I can tell you with 100% certainty it is not Bob Arum, so his name should be removed from the caption. It should be changed to "Ali in court, 1966".

I revised the caption and added a reference to correctly describe circumstances of the photo. Unable so far to find source identifying man in background, but looks like he could be young Bob Arum, judging from contemporary photos. DonFB (talk) 12:11, 11 December 2020 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 28 January 2021

He was an boxer RockyRahul2027 (talk) 09:49, 28 January 2021 (UTC)

 Already done, it's in the lead and what the majority of this article is about. Volteer1 (talk) 09:56, 28 January 2021 (UTC)

Cassius Marcelus Clay the 6th

He was not a JR. he was Cassius Marcelus Clay the 6th Ericwright075 (talk) 05:33, 26 March 2021 (UTC)

Awards and accolades section link does not seem to work

The link to #awards-and-accolades in the infobox took me to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muhammad_Ali#Awards_and_accolades but did not move me on the page. Maybe there used to be a section named that but now it does not exist? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2600:1700:9582:2040:9C1C:366A:A4B5:12DE (talk) 23:25, 8 February 2021 (UTC)

It was moved to the Boxing career of Muhammad Ali article and reorganized. I'm not sure it should have been moved. Any opposition to bringing some of it back here?--Jahalive (talk) 18:50, 22 April 2021 (UTC)

Historical status

We have to have something in this article to support that he has been "ranked as the best heavyweight boxer and greatest athlete of the century." It was in the lead until it was removed in this edit. It needs to be here somewhere.--Jahalive (talk) 19:48, 11 April 2021 (UTC)

I put it back.--Jahalive (talk) 18:51, 22 April 2021 (UTC)

Removing deadnaming from the article

Given that Ali had totally repudiated Ali's birth name, I'm surprised to find it used throughout the sections on Ali's early life. I'd be happy to go through and remove it, but don't want all my efforts to be reverted if this violates some Wikipedia policy of which I'm not yet aware. It was a long and arduous effort to complete the undeadnaming of Caitlyn (formerly Bruce) Jenner's page, eventuating in the removal of most personal pronouns, which isn't even at issue here. So I suspect there's some other reason why this has not already been accomplished here. Bucksburg (talk) 10:41, 28 April 2021 (UTC)

@Bucksburg: He didn't exactly repudiate his birth name, he just insisted that people respect his wishes of being referred to by his new name. Something that I imagine is pretty common for anybody who changes their name. I think when detailing things like the Olympics or his early fights it makes more sense (and is historically accurate) to use Clay, as nobody by the name of Muhammad Ali won a gold medal at the 1960 Olympics and there were no Ali vs. Cooper or Liston vs. Ali I fights. As long as the lead makes the name change clear then I don't see an issue. I'm not aware of any policy that states which name must be used, but MOS:DEADNAME (not a policy) definitely is not applicable here; "deadnames" are exclusively related to trans people, not general name changes. There is MOS:SURNAME (not a policy), but I think common sense can be applied to ignore that particular guideline. Afterall, he was highly notable under both names. – ².O.^Boxing 12:56, 28 April 2021 (UTC)

Potential Assassination Attempt

I find it somewhat odd that this article doesn't mention that Ali may have been the victim of an attempted assassination, and I suggest that it be noted.

On the same night that Malcolm X was shot, Ali's home was set on fire, in what the police said was arson. There are several secondary sources that tie that fire to the Nation of Islam (who were suspected to have firebombed Malcolm's house earlier that year), and I even found one source (possibly a book—I couldn't find the book the source is reviewing) connecting the fire to his decision to abstain from the war. Thoughts?--2603:7000:3E40:83D7:9519:1D5B:1E3B:BDEB (talk) 20:11, 30 April 2021 (UTC)

We have to be careful with this. None of those sources say that it was an assassination attempt, but we could mention the fire. I think we need more sources to suggest that he was following out of fear.--Jahalive (talk) 17:30, 5 May 2021 (UTC)

Mohammed Ali?

I distinctly remember his name being spelled Mohammed Ali all over media when the name change took place, and for quite some time thereafter. Am I wrong? --SergeWoodzing (talk) 09:53, 24 May 2021 (UTC)

Rumble in the Jungle

Could someone correct this ? There are several full videos on youtube, it's easy to see the actual fight.

In the first round Ali went aggressive from the very beginning and outboxed Foreman severely. The second through fourth were about even, with possibly Ali leading. In the fourth, at one point Ali staggerred Foreman almost to the point of a knockdown. It wasn't until halfway through the fifth that Ali went into the real Rope-a-Dope of standing still, leaning back against the ropes and inviting Foreman to hit him. He'd used the ropes earlier but not in that manner. At the end of the fifth Ali came out and smacked George around good, then the first half of the sixth used Foreman for a punching bag before resting / Roping-a-Dope again in the second half. By the seventh, Ali was using Foreman full time for target practice, landing beautiful combinations one after the other. You can see that Foreman is worn out by the seventh, he hits as hard as he can but there's nothing left, Ali doesn't even have to resort to the ropes in the seventh. The eighth is all Ali, Foreman staggers around like a zombie throwing wild unfocussed punches while Ali waits for an opening then blisters George with combinations. And then one puts George down, with Ali showing one of the class acts of all time boxing, watching George go down without hitting him again.

The conventional wisdom of this fight - that Ali went on the ropes until Foreman was worn out, then knocked him down - is not correct. The truth is far more impressive.

This was a beautiful, classic fight, pitting skill and experience aginst brute force, with a fairy tale ending. It deserves a better, more accurate writeup. Someone, please ? 73.83.43.194 (talk) 01:21, 29 May 2021 (UTC)

So you want to throw out the longstanding consensus of the fight and replace it with your own opinion -- which is at odds with the "conventional wisdom" -- because you're right and all those other analysts are wrong? Chillowack (talk) 20:43, 18 July 2021 (UTC)

edit request UCLA

Not sure if this is how I do this. Under the "Marriages and children" section, 5th paragraph, it says "he paid for her to attend graduate school at U.C.L.A." The UCLA system does not use periods in its abbreviated name, so the most correct way to write it would be just "UCLA".

 Done RudolfRed (talk) 23:36, 30 August 2021 (UTC)

Hyperbole

The opening paragraph is somewhat overdone, & needs a citation. Unlock please.— Preceding unsigned comment added by 27.85.204.146 (talk) 03:18, 17 September 2021 (UTC)

2nd Sentence of the lead

The longstanding wording was: "Nicknamed The Greatest, he is widely regarded as one of the most significant and celebrated figures of the 20th century and as one of the greatest boxers of all time." I can see how calling him one of the most significant figures of the 20th century is difficult to support, but I think "widely regarded as the most significant and celebrated sporting figure of the 20th century" is supported by the Sports Illustrated, BBC and ESPN accolades mentioned in the lead and what is written in the Legacy section. Sel Conwall reverted. Any thoughts?--Jahalive (talk) 18:45, 22 April 2021 (UTC)

AfroWorld33 changed it from "sporting figures" to "cultural figures". I don't think that is supported by the sources.--Jahalive (talk) 17:37, 28 May 2021 (UTC)

It said "frequently ranked as the ... greatest athlete of the century." for a couple of months, but Kkevinn6 removed that. I think we could do better explaining his significance, but that didn't do it accurately--Jahalive (talk) 18:33, 7 August 2021 (UTC)

It said "frequently ranked as the ... greatest sportsperson of the century." This is supported by the Sports Illustrated, BBC and USA Todsy rankings. Kkevinn6 removed it. Can you explain why?--Jahalive (talk) 17:38, 30 October 2021 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 2 November 2021

Change his full name to Muhammed Ali he said so many times that he didn’t want to be called what you currently have put down and then there’s you people that just don’t care 85.255.235.168 (talk) 14:49, 2 November 2021 (UTC)

 Not done for now: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the {{edit semi-protected}} template. His birth name is noteworthy and should be included in an encyclopedia article. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 15:05, 2 November 2021 (UTC)

Add City of Ali

Can we add the theatrically released 2021 documentary "City of Ali" to the popular culture section? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Prestonbreckenridge (talk • contribs) 15:38, 22 December 2021 (UTC)

First name used professionally

I do not believe that this was a constructive edit. So as not to mislead readers, the professional name by which Ali was known worldwide at first needs to be bold somewhere in the lead, without hi--SergeWoodzing (talk) 11:58, 11 January 2022 (UTC)s middle name and suffix. He was never known as "Marcellus" i any context. I will reinstate Cassius Clay again unless someone can come up with a good reason not to. --SergeWoodzing (talk) 03:05, 28 December 2021 (UTC)

I agreed with the revert that removed the repetition of his name. The important fact is that he renounced his given name. I have not seen research evidence one way or another that he explicitly renounced his first and last, or his first, middle and last names as his "professional name". He just renounced his name as it was given to him. I think describing his action as renouncing his professional name amounts to editorializing, and perhaps even a form of original research. I'm not aware of sourcing that says he, or anyone else, characterized his given name in the manner your edit suggested. That was simply your opinion. The sourcing that does exist supports our reporting only that he characterized it as his "slave name". To say anything more about it--and to add yet another bolded version of his name as if it's a separate and distinct identifier--strikes me as reaching to fabricate a kind of pedantic factoid that is not supported by any reliable source. DonFB (talk) 03:54, 28 December 2021 (UTC)

Are we to accept as a fact that he was not known worldwide as "Cassius Clay" (no Marcellus etc) before his name change? --SergeWoodzing (talk) 23:49, 29 December 2021 (UTC)

If you want to make a point about his first-last name as his "professional name", you will need a reference. DonFB (talk) 01:33, 30 December 2021 (UTC)

How's this? There are many more. He was very will known initially all over the world under his professional name form "Cassius Clay". I was there. --SergeWoodzing (talk) 23:04, 8 January 2022 (UTC)

In the very source you just linked (The Guardian), the image of an article about Clay-Liston is shown, and its first words are: "Cassius Marcellus Clay", refuting the core of your argument. Your idea about his "professional name"—your term, not seen in any reference in the article—is not encyclopedic knowledge about Ali the person, and even with the vast amount of published verbiage about him, there appear to be no sources discussing the idea, nor have you shown one. I remain opposed to superfluous and fussy re-bolding of his name in the Introduction. DonFB (talk) 09:22, 9 January 2022 (UTC)

"Sonny Liston loses his heavyweight title to Cassius Clay (Muhammad Ali) after seven rounds at the Miami Beach Convention ..." is the beginning of that caption. I don't know where you see "Marcellus" - I certainly do not. A professional name established worldwide and referenced in scores of media items should be in bold type, no matter what else. The importance of not following such a simple policy is what's "fussy" to me. --SergeWoodzing (talk) 11:58, 11 January 2022 (UTC)

Cassius Clay wasn't his "professional name" (not a thing in boxing), it was just his name. "Marcellus" is omitted in the media and ring announcements due to typical naming conventions (to a lesser extent, same with "Jr."). I don't see the need for the additional bolding. If his new name was "Muhammad Barry Ali" (bolded on the first instance), would you then bold the first instance of "Muhammad Ali"? – ².O.^Boxing 12:25, 11 January 2022 (UTC)

Yes, if "Barry" was never mentioned in media about him, because we are here to inform clearly, unmistakably and reliably, not suppress relevant info. --SergeWoodzing (talk) 12:28, 11 January 2022 (UTC)

No information is being suppressed. His birth name is included in the first sentence. A paragraph later, it says he renounced his birth name. Where's the suppression?

Per MOS:BOLD and MOS:BIRTHNAME (and MOS:CHANGEDNAME), we bold the first instance of a subject's birth name and any additional names. Neither of those guidelines say we bold any subsequent uses that omit middle names (again, a standard practice in English naming conventions). By your reasoning, the overwhelming majority of BLP subjects with a middle name would need their name repeated and bolded with the middle name omitted because the media do not use their full name, which is a daft idea. – ².O.^Boxing 14:26, 11 January 2022 (UTC)

Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment

This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 28 January 2019 and 15 May 2019. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Jmine009.

Above undated message substituted from Template:Dashboard.wikiedu.org assignment by PrimeBOT (talk) 04:34, 17 January 2022 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 23 January 2022

Religion: Muslim 193.162.35.80 (talk) 17:31, 23 January 2022 (UTC)

 Not done: Assuming that your request meant "Add "Religion: Muslim" to the infobox", see Wikipedia:Village pump (policy)/Archive 126#RfC: Religion in biographical infoboxes, the 2016 discussion whereby religion was deprecated from the infobox template. – Muboshgu (talk) 17:34, 23 January 2022 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 21 February 2022

In the part when discussing Muhammed Ali’s quote about vietnam war, ali said, “I cannot go to war unless it is commanded by allah or his messenger. He is referring messenger to our prophet Muhammed(SAW) and not Elijah Muhammed. Please change that part in the bracket to our Prophet’s name. 2601:484:C000:D2C0:0:0:0:CC9F (talk) 07:03, 21 February 2022 (UTC)

 Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. Currently cited source refers to Elijah. If you have a source that contradicts this, please provide it Cannolis (talk) 16:10, 21 February 2022 (UTC)

A conversion reason?

In a wonderful interview on the Parkinson TV show which pops up on social media now and then, besides showing us how brilliant this man's mind was there is also a clue as to why he converted to Islam. He says that after he had won his World Championship gold medal in Rome, he still was turned away because of race when he wanted to eat in a hometown restaurant "where I went to church and served in their Christianity - and from then on, I've been a Muslim". Can we add this enlightening detail? --SergeWoodzing (talk) 13:00, 19 March 2022 (UTC)

The "Early life and career" section mentions a restaurant incident, though not conversion in relation to that event. Social media not likely a reliable source--is there an actual source that meets Wikipedia standards for "the Parkinson TV show"? DonFB (talk) 15:02, 19 March 2022 (UTC)

If we can assume that the YouTube clips are not rearranged and faked, wouldn't they suffice? He sitting right there, unedited, telling the story. --SergeWoodzing (talk) 11:45, 20 March 2022 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 1 May 2022

The following sentences in the personal life (marriages and children) section are convoluted and confusing:

They had four children: author and rapper Maryum "May May" (born 1968); twins Jamillah and Rasheda (born 1970), who married Robert Walsh and has a son, Biaggio Ali, born in 1998; and Muhammad Ali Jr. (born 1972). Rasheda's son Nico is a professional boxer.

Please change to the following:

They had four children: author and rapper Maryum "May May" (born 1968); twins Jamillah and Rasheda (born 1970); and Muhammad Ali Jr. (born 1972). Rasheda married Robert Walsh and has two sons: Biaggio Ali, (born 1998), and Nico Ali (born 2000), who is a professional boxer. 2001:BB6:4713:4858:9926:A5C6:CD14:E2D5 (talk) 12:27, 1 May 2022 (UTC)

 Done — CAPTAIN JTK (talk) 16:06, 2 May 2022 (UTC)

CAPTAIN JTK: Pleased re-link Nico Ali Walsh in that sentence. I didn't include links in my edit request, assuming they'd be kept. Apologies. 2001:BB6:4713:4858:951B:77AE:EC1C:5BFB (talk) 11:12, 3 May 2022 (UTC)

 Done — CAPTAIN JTK (talk) 11:50, 3 May 2022 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 17 May 2022

The "Chamberlain challenge..." section doesn't say who won the eventual fight against Jimmy Ellis. Please add the following text to the end of that section:

Ali won the bout through a technical knockout when the referee stopped the fight in the twelfth round. 67.188.1.213 (talk) 03:15, 17 May 2022 (UTC)

 Done diff jcgoble3 (talk) 01:01, 19 May 2022 (UTC)

References

Boxing Record

His boxing record should be added as a table like any other fighter has. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.164.61.77 (talk) 19:21, 21 May 2022 (UTC)

Click on the content heading, "Early professional boxing career". Immediately below that heading in the article is a link to the article, "Boxing career of Muhammad Ali" and a direct link to the table of his "professional boxing record" within that article. DonFB (talk) 22:46, 21 May 2022 (UTC)

As someone who just opened this article precisely to take a look at the boxing record, let me say that it's simply aggravating that it's hidden away in a separate article. Any other boxer I just find the "Professional boxing record" section towards the bottom of the Contents section, and I'm there in seconds. With this article I first searched over the Contents section three times thinking I was just missing it, then scrolled through the article, and finally used the Ctrl+F search function of the browser to find "boxing record", passed over the first result from the header section, found the link, and could finally click over to the separate article to *finally* find what I was looking for.

There really is *no reason* this should be a separate article. None at all. It's not like Ali has some exceptionally boxing record. At 61 fights, it's significantly shorter than other boxers like Holmes (75 fights) or Foreman (81 fights) that have their boxing record right there in the article. KristinnKr (talk) 10:00, 1 June 2022 (UTC)

Agreed. I'm also here because I couldn't find it. It was removed in edit "17:54, 15 April 2019‎". It doesn't make any sense for the most famous boxer in history to not have his record in the main article. There was a message about the article being too long, but that was probably only there due to the amount of markup a table uses. St4rdog (talk) 19:18, 15 June 2022 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 28 May 2022

You have to remove Joseph Blasiolli's red links, put the title in reference 54 and remove the generic name from reference 184! 2804:7F2:5A3:F759:F9F0:BEE5:C7EB:3E8B (talk) 07:09, 28 May 2022 (UTC)

 Partly done: I have fixed reference 184 and 54 as needed. I am not removing Joesph Blasiolli's red link, as I see no reason to (See WP:REDLINK). Aidan9382 _(talk) 18:21, 28 May 2022 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 26 June 2022

I would like to add a hyperlink to Herbert Muhammad Jabir_Herbert_Muhammad Wikipedia page (currently missing). Jorge.harmodio (talk) 09:06, 26 June 2022 (UTC)

Y Done. DonFB (talk) 09:23, 26 June 2022 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 28 October 2022

Please add "Category:People with dyslexia" (in double square brackets, sorted among the other Category: entries at the end of the article). Thanks. -- 24.91.152.172 (talk) 17:44, 28 October 2022 (UTC)

 Done --Kristiannumber1 (talk) 18:57, 28 October 2022 (UTC)

"The fight became famous for Ali's introduction of the rope-a-dope tactic"

The vs. Foreman section states that the "fight became famous for Ali's introduction of the rope-a-dope tactic". However, the earlier first vs. Fraizer section states that that fight was "the first appearance of the 'rope-a-dope strategy'". That should probably be cleared up. Jyg (talk) 02:57, 6 March 2023 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 3 May 2023

I want to edit Ali's height from 6'3(191cm) to 6'2.5(189cm). There are various sources that can confirm this Sasha777Rus (talk) 18:28, 3 May 2023 (UTC)

 Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. Callmemirela 🍁 19:06, 3 May 2023 (UTC)

Heads up on removing deprecated source

Inquisitir has been deprecated by WP:RSP. And this source is cited twice in the article. I'm going to remove these citations soon, and all information the citations support – which means it's going to break first paragraph of §Television appearances. To avoid this breakage, it is strongly encouraged for interested parties to find a better source for these claims, and to replace the deprecated source before this removal occurs. Thank you. -- dsprc ^[talk] 09:49, 20 August 2023 (UTC)

Name usage inconsistencies throughout article.

Note, my attention was drawn to this article by a comment in an unrelated RfC elsewhere on wiki.

This article is pretty inconsistent in which name it uses when referring to Ali, particularly in the early sections of the article. In some sections, like early life, amateur career, and Muhammad Ali#Early career, we swap the name being used between sentences. For example, in the amateur career section we have Clay's amateur record was 100 wins with five losses. Ali said in his 1975 autobiography that shortly after his return from the Rome Olympics..., or in early career In each of these fights, Clay vocally belittled his opponents and vaunted his abilities. ... Ali's trash talk was inspired by professional wrestler "Gorgeous George" Wagner's (surnames emphasised for clarity of the change)

Is there a particular reason why this is the case? I took a look through the talk page archives for an RfC or any previous discussions on this, but aside from one discussion in 2008, I didn't see any obvious discussions about this.

This practice of inconsistent name use seems to run counter to the MOS:CHANGEDNAME guideline, which states that in biographical articles such as this we should avoid anachronistic naming. Should we not, in that case, use Clay consistently, up until the point at which Ali changed his name? Alternatively, though somewhat of an application of WP:IAR against the CHANGEDNAME guideline, should we not consistently use Ali throughout the article, as that is the name for which he is most commonly known, outside of the mentions of his former name? Sideswipe9th (talk) 00:50, 21 May 2023 (UTC)

I saw similar edits at Kareem Abdul-Jabar and it sparked a vague memory of this article. Have the guidelines changed? I thought I'd read something that supported the (annoyingly) incosistent usage. Regardless, I can't think of a reason to not apply the principle of avoiding anachronistic naming, per CHANGEDNAME. I support using Ali throughout, except the first line of 'Early life', obviously. – ².O.^Boxing 09:55, 23 September 2023 (UTC)

Edit request

In this sentence (the reference number is 257), which is from the "Philanthropy, humanitarianism, and politics" section, it appears that "dwells" should be replaced with "wells":

"Having arrived in Tanzania, Ali told cameras "Russia is invading a Muslim country, Asiatic country", and that its probable intention to head to oil-rich Persia to take dwells and ports "could lead to nuclear war. My purpose in coming here was to try to stop that." — Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.154.14.228 (talk) 17:27, 25 October 2023 (UTC)

 Done I reviewed the documentary this text is cited from, and you are right, and it's now fixed. Thank you for reporting this. Stefen Tower_{s among the rest!} ^{Gab • Gruntwerk} 18:49, 25 October 2023 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 7 November 2023

I noticed that there was many errors in writing this article after comparing it to many other articles. 165.234.180.27 (talk) 16:52, 7 November 2023 (UTC)

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. RudolfRed (talk) 17:01, 7 November 2023 (UTC)

Other Grandson needs to be added to relatives list

Ali has another grandson who should be listed, Baggio Ali Walsh. He is an MMA fighter. 69.231.252.71 (talk) 00:32, 26 November 2023 (UTC)

 Not done Biaggio is already mentioned under "Marriages and children". Stefen Tower_{s among the rest!} ^{Gab • Gruntwerk} 19:42, 26 November 2023 (UTC)

Reorg of the Legacy section

Today I did major copyediting and adding of cites and some content to the Legacy section. When I started doing improvements, I started noticing that breaking up the content into subsections made sense. I especially came to the conclusion that a subsection about his hometown legacy was necessary (Ali loved Louisville!). In the process, I kept almost all of the content that was there, except a blurb about a Los Angeles mural, which I decided didn't fit here due to WP:BALANCE (i.e. there are myriad easily-sourced art pieces about Ali around the world and focusing on just one doesn't seem fair.). Stefen Tower_{s among the rest!} ^{Gab • Gruntwerk} 06:35, 10 December 2023 (UTC)

Lead image

Hi, What about replacing the lead image by File:Muhammad Ali, gtfy.00140.jpg? Yann (talk) 16:42, 27 January 2024 (UTC)

Helpful to the discussion would be reasons for doing such. The current image is longstanding and shows Ali in his prime as a boxer and activist. What are reasons for changing? Stefen Tower_{s among the rest!} ^{Gab • Gruntwerk} 19:34, 27 January 2024 (UTC)

Lead Image

I agree I feel like we should edit the lead image 50.219.108.48 (talk) 18:04, 2 February 2024 (UTC)

Feel free to offer reasons for doing so. The current image shows Ali in his prime as a boxer and activist. Do you know of another image that does that better and is free for our use here? Stefen Tower_{s among the rest!} ^{Gab • Gruntwerk} 18:14, 2 February 2024 (UTC)

@StefenTower What's your reasoning for showing Mr. Ali in his prime years? There are photographs with higher image quality than the one being utilized. Many photographs are more artistically pleasing than the current one. So, why not use Mr. Ali's more current photographs?Sheikbaba36524 (talk) 17:11, 21 February 2024 (UTC)

The reasoning is that the current image exemplifies Ali at the height of both his boxing career/capabilities and his activism (Ali's key defining attributes). This is an encyclopedia, and we are after conveying information over decorating articles with artistically pleasing images. But if we were wanting a more artistically pleasing image for its own sake, the image you used to replace earlier was anything but that. The last thing we would want is the subject in sunglasses. Stefen Tower_{s among the rest!} ^{Gab • Gruntwerk} 17:44, 21 February 2024 (UTC)

Thank you for clearing the doubt

.Sheikbaba36524 (talk) 18:19, 21 February 2024 (UTC)

Odds at time of first Liston bout

There was a discrepancy between 7:1 and 8:1 odds in various articles covering Ali's (Clay at the time) first bout with Sonny Liston, so I resolved it to show 8:1 everywhere with a pretty hard source (New York Times). If there is a discrepancy with other sources, please let me know. Stefen Tower_{s among the rest!} ^{Gab • Gruntwerk} 20:16, 22 February 2024 (UTC)