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Change for the worse in definition

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Dear IP 68.43.242.130 , Jordan is usually considered to be part of the Mashriq, and so is Palestine as an Arab region (before Israel came along). In fact, in medieval times, the eastern half of Libya (Cyrenaica) was sometimes considered to be part of the Mashreq, so that the Maghreb was considered to begin in Western Libya (Tripolitania). Please don't remove valid info from the article. AnonMoos 14:43, 16 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Sudan

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Where does the Sudan fit in to the Maghreb/Mashreq level of Arab geography? Is it thought of as a region of its own? Or part of some Nile Valley region, with Egypt? QuartierLatin1968 El bien mas preciado es la libertad 01:00, 20 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I would guess that it's more "south" than it is either east or west -- just like Arabia... AnonMoos 21:16, 20 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Sudan is a region on its own. It is distinct from Mashriq, Maghreb, Egypt, and Arabia. The last time I heard of Sudan and Egypt being classified together was in old Egyptian movies from the 40's when Sudan was still Anglo-Egyptian Sudan.

Removed comment from article (claiming that the sun sets in the east!) to here

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Note : Maghreb is also the name of an Islamic prayer, for the sunset, which refers to the fact that the sun sets to the east and rises to the east (the morning prayer just before the sun rises is Fajr, not Mashreq, however.) -- Arabic Pilot

Arabia proper

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Is the Mashreq commonly meant to include Arabia proper? So far, my understanding had been that this term used the astronomical descriptor to conveniently divide the Arab world into two halves, one Asiatic and one African, separated by the Red Sea and the Suez/Sinai region. Is this assumption accurate? // Big Adamsky • BA's talk page 21:27, 20 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

No it doesn't usually include Arabia, and (as written above) sometimes historically (but not usually currently) Egypt was included in the Mashreq (since the deserts west of the Nile are a significant ecological barrier). I would guess that it refers basically to the post-conquest territories. AnonMoos 22:12, 20 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks AM, I guess I will have to re-edit a few articles accordingly then. :] // Big Adamsky • BA's talk page 22:19, 20 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

P.S. Here's one regional map (though it splits up Arabia proper in a quasi-unconventional way): Image:Regions - Arab League.PNG -- AnonMoos (talk) 20:13, 12 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

It includes Egypt and everything east of it - including the Arabian Peninsula. I don't believe the Arab League calls the GCC region the "Persian Gulf". see Contact and Language Conflict in Arabic: Variations on a Sociolinguistic Theme, By Aleya Rouchdy, Published by Routledge, 2002, ISBN 0700713794, page 153 and Development: From Dependence to Self-reliance in the Arab Region, By Yusif A. Sayigh, Published by Routledge, 1991, ISBN 0415062586, page 212harlan (talk) 10:32, 9 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Merge with Middle East

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Considering both this and the Mashriq pages have discussions against a merge, I am going to take the liberty of removing the merge tags. Joshdboz 19:59, 11 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

mashriq and Maghrib

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Historically the Mashriq is considered Bilad asham and Egypt...

in the Modern World, the Mashriq is Considered the Eastern part of the Arab World, this includes Egypt, Sudan, Arabia and the Levant...

While Maghrib includes Morocco, Mauritania, Libya, W. Sahara, Algeria and Tunisia...

Other Arab States are in East africa, such as Somalia, Djibouti, and comoros, dont really have a name, i guess the Arab Horn of Africa has been used a couple of times... —Preceding unsigned comment added by Arab League (talk • contribs) 13:30, 31 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

As a note to my reversion, let me note that I agree with our Egyptian friend, User Arab League, that in modern Arabic usage, Machriq is often used to include everything Arab to the East of Libya, and Maghreb to the West of Libya or Egypt. His use of Arab States of East Africa, well, that's bollocks, but can be ignored. The categorical statements in article and in discussion here taking minimalist views of Mashriq and Maghreb reflect excessively literalist and not usage focused definitions. (collounsbury (talk) 11:37, 8 February 2008 (UTC)) 14:22, 3 February 2008 (UTC)) [sorry bollixed up signing.][reply]

In the middle ages, Mashriq sometimes included Cyrenaica and regions eastward, while Maghrib would correspondingly include Tripolitania and regions westward, but I don't think that that's the most usual modern definition... AnonMoos (talk) 15:00, 3 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Define "usual modern definition." In the Maghreb, when people say "Mashriq" they mean everything East of Libya. Egypt seems to me to have mixed usage, but Egypt is at a transition point. Strikes me that asserting ipso facto that the narrow definition of Mashriq is the "usual one" is without basis. Usual perhaps in certain locales, but for a whole sweep of North African Arabic, it is quite usual. (collounsbury (talk) 11:35, 8 February 2008 (UTC))[reply]

I reverted once more the replacement of the "core" and "wider usage" map by one showing only Mashriq as Bilad ash-Sham. There is no justification for insisting on one particular usage, differing usages extent should be highlighted. (collounsbury (talk) 16:21, 27 August 2008 (UTC))[reply]

The three regions of the Arab world are:

Maghrib = Marrocco, Tunisia, Algeria, Libya;
Mashriq = Egypt, Levant, Iraq;
Gulf = Kuwait, Saudi Arabia, Bahrain, Qatar, UAE, Oman, Yemen. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 144.82.194.166 (talk) 00:08, 14 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
That's a little simplistic -- why is Yemen a "gulf" country when it isn't anywhere near the Gulf? AnonMoos (talk) 00:52, 14 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Regarding a Section Omitted on Februrary 6, 2009

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I omitted the "Sources and Links" section because it contained only two links to the results of a Google Books search with key phrase "mashriq+judaism." These searches weren't referenced in the text and it was unclear how they related to the article (except that the article's title appeared in the key phrase). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.133.202.87 (talk) 10:40, 6 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Definition

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Seblini and 24.36.80.217, can you please come to the talk page so we can have this discused instead of edit warring? AcidSnow (talk) 08:52, 21 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Correct word usage

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"This composes the countries ... "

This should be

"This comprises the countries ..." or "This is composed of the countries ..."

Norm — Preceding unsigned comment added by 50.166.47.249 (talk) 16:47, 10 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

dumb question

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Considering how short this article is, why isn't it included in the article that references it, which is about the Arabic alphabet. Alternatively, why doesn't it cover all the issues raised in the Maghrebian article? 100.15.120.122 (talk) 13:09, 12 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]

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Israel

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Shouldn't Israel be on the map and in the infobox? A455bcd9 (talk) 12:48, 16 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

The territory now part of Israel was generally classified as Mashriq in the past, but Israel as a nation doesn't fit in with a classification of Arab nations. AnonMoos (talk) 13:41, 16 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks. But that's not what one of the sources listed in the article says: https://www.britannica.com/place/Mashriq
"Mashriq, geographic region extending from the western border of Egypt to the eastern border of Iraq. It includes the modern states of Egypt, Sudan, Saudi Arabia, Yemen, Oman, Kuwait, the United Arab Emirates, Israel, Jordan, Lebanon, Syria, and Iraq and covers an area of approximately 2.7 million square miles (7 million square km)."
I'll update the article accordingly. A455bcd9 (talk) 16:24, 16 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
A455bcd9, hi. It seems that logic, facts, Britannica & Oxford dictionaries are nothing compared to hate. Arminden (talk) 05:18, 26 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Discussing it would be something different. Logical argument: IF defined as Arab-majority states (it isn't), THEN w/o Israel. Or: Arabic term, focused on Arab-majority places; for strictly geographical context we have the Eurocentric "Middle East". Or: use historical terms, not modern state names. Etc. Voila, done the thinking for the other side, too. Cheers, Arminden (talk) 05:23, 26 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Israel clearly shouldn’t be on there nor in the Arab World but it seems they have some nasty zionists to keep up making lies so people checking wikipedia think it’s a legitimate state. Wikipedia is contributing to zionism and to further israel’s genocidal and antisemitic message into the world just like the rest of the media and the internet and it’s “okay” for people to do that basically because they’re white. If there were brown people trying to whitewash their genocide they wouldn’t stand a chance. 2A0C:5A81:5500:2F00:30C6:8273:B00D:14C8 (talk) 15:14, 2 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
You forgot plenty of buzzwords. Imperialist, settler-colonialist, Soros, conspiracy, hegemony, Holocaust industry, and since we're at it, go ahead with dolicephalous, lachrymose manipulative, frantic & scheming, and so forth. Get a life. Or actually why. Arminden (talk) 15:52, 2 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Just confirming before I fix it but it seemed the prior consensus was to revert the info box to include Israel - which is reflected in the intro description on the page but is not reflected in the info box. Wanted to double check as it seems to have been reverted since. Best, Willthehelpfuleditor (talk 22:02, 3 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Edits misrepresenting sources, lacking consensus

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Hi TheDoodbly. I appreciate your energy, also some of your edits, but you went against the most basic principles, i.e. do not misrepresent cited sources and do not ignore ongoing discussions where opposing opinions to yours are being debated.

Both the Oxford dictionary and Britannica do include Israel in their definitions (Oxford UP (2018), The Concise Dictionary of World Place-Names: "A geographic region that extends from western Egypt to the western border of Iran to include Egypt, Iraq, Israel, Jordan, Kuwait, Lebanon, and Syria. Thus it is the Arabic name for the Middle East. It sometimes includes other non-..." further access under paywall. Britannica: "It includes the modern states of Egypt, Sudan, Saudi Arabia, Yemen, Oman, Kuwait, the United Arab Emirates, Israel, Jordan, Lebanon, Syria, and Iraq...").

The article also suggests that Libya is cut in two.

Btw cut in two: cannot talk about halves, that would imply equal parts in Mashriq and Maghreb - probably km², some may also think of population - did you check on those?

Please

  1. respect the sources
  2. discuss major & controversial changes before you edit
  3. write edit summaries.

Thank you. Arminden (talk) 16:07, 14 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

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