Talk:Mariah Carey/Archive 19

Archive 15

←

Archive 17

Archive 18

Archive 19

New evidence for 1969 birth

I don't know if this has been referenced before, but it sure looks like she was born in 1969 now according to this announcement of her birth! Heartfox (talk) 14:09, 16 February 2021 (UTC)

Nobody has provided that clipping before as far as I know. Of all the sources that support being born in 1969, this is definitely the most convincing. SNUGGUMS (talk / edits) 15:12, 16 February 2021 (UTC)

Whoa, I've just seen this source, very good job! With this historical source, I believe that we don't need to list 1970 anymore. Bluesatellite (talk) 21:57, 25 February 2021 (UTC)

Ikr! I agree but unfortunately because there are so many sources that report 1970 I don't think we can just ignore them. Heartfox (talk) 22:33, 25 February 2021 (UTC)

Perhaps we could have a note with something like "While various sources have said she was born in 1970, Carey's birth was announced in a 1969 article from The Long-Islander". We could use James Gunn as an example for such a setup. Pinging Tenebrae for input, who was one of the users that insisted 1969 shouldn't be overlooked simply because many others support 1970. SNUGGUMS (talk / edits) 03:47, 26 February 2021 (UTC)

How should we explain Rolling Stone (the last ref provided for 1970) providing her birth time? Heartfox (talk) 03:51, 26 February 2021 (UTC)

I think this would be somewhat of a different situation if this new evidence was the only evidence for 1969. However, as we have both her hometown-ish newspaper (Newsday) listing her as 1969, as well as People for many years, and The International Who's Who, I agree that we should move in the 1969 direction and acknowledge that there is no longer equivalent evidence for both years. Unless there just happened to be another Mariah born to an Alfred Carey on a March 27 in Huntington, New York lol. Heartfox (talk) 03:57, 26 February 2021 (UTC)

It would be quite a coincidence for another Mariah to be born in the same hometown and have a father named Alfred :P. I highly doubt your clipping pertains to anyone else. We now can safely say that the evidence for 1969 outweighs that of 1970. SNUGGUMS (talk / edits) 04:18, 26 February 2021 (UTC)

That's why I'm very impressed with the source. Mariah, a daughter of Alfred Carey, was born in Huntington on March 27, 1969. The day, month, name, and place, all are too exact to be coincidence. The name "Mariah" was rarely used in the United States, until the singer became famous. The paper was published in 1969, while all those sources for 1970 came much later in her life (Rolling Stone in 2006, like after 16 years of her stardom). The article James Gunn, as pointed at by SNUGGUMS, is a nice example. Michael Jackson also has a [note] for his record sales, when his widely-publicized 1 billion claim was denied by the IFPI representative, so number of sources don't really matter. A note is sufficient in these cases. Bluesatellite (talk) 05:22, 26 February 2021 (UTC)

It does look conclusive, but ultimately all it proves that a Mariah Carey was born on this date in Huntington. We have nothing to prove this is the article subject. It definitely puts 1969 in the frame, but joining up all the co-incidences has a smell of original synthesis to me. --Escape Orbit ^(Talk) 12:40, 26 February 2021 (UTC)

It is Mariah Carey with the same father's name and the same undisputed month and day. I believe that to suggest this newspaper birth announcement isn't conclusive is shifting the goalposts: Such a newspaper birth announcement would be conclusive for any other biographical article. I would note — solely as an analogy and not directed at anyone here — that only birthers did not accept the Hawaii newspaper's birth announcement for Barack Obama. Citing Mariah Carey's birth announcement is not synthesis. A footnote can be added saying the date 1970 appears in some reference sources.--Tenebrae (talk) 17:41, 27 February 2021 (UTC)

So the conclusion is as follows[1]:

• Historic newspaper The Long-Islander (April 10, 1969 issue, Page 15) confirmed the birth of Mariah Carey (father: Alfred Carey) on March 27, 1969 in Huntington, New York.
• Her hometown paper, Newsday, obtained a copy of her senior yearbook and interviewed the vice principal at her school in 1991, confirming the 1969 year.
• Mariah was graduated in 1987, meaning that she had just turned 17 if she was born in 1970. However, Mariah herself has made it very clear that wasn't a great student, to be able to skip a grade.
• Mariah's early recordings were registered to Library of Congress's Copyright Catalog with her bith date of 1969. It couldn't be a typo since the difference is two letters (six and nine vs. seven and zero).
• Mariah always avoids discussing her specific number. She only has anniversaries, not birthdays. She said that "First of all, don't round up. If you're going to round, round down!", implying that 1969 (the late 1960s decade) was round to the next decade (1970).

Bluesatellite (talk) 00:19, 28 February 2021 (UTC)

• The Newsday article they're referring to is on ProQuest here, where on March 19, 1991, they write "When Mariah Carey, a 21-year-old...", in case anyone cares. Heartfox (talk) 00:47, 28 February 2021 (UTC)

How about this suggestion below? Please reword if neccessary. Bluesatellite (talk) 01:00, 28 February 2021 (UTC)

Proposed content

Mariah Carey (/məˈraɪə/; born March 27, 1969) is an American singer-songwriter, record producer, and actress. Known for her five-octave vocal range, melismatic singing style, and signature use of the whistle register, she is referred to as the "Songbird Supreme" by Guinness World Records. She has also been referred to as the "Queen of Christmas". She rose to fame in 1990 with her eponymous debut album, released under the guidance of Columbia Records executive Tommy Mottola, who married her three years later. Carey is the first artist in history to have their first five singles reach number one on the Billboard Hot 100, from "Vision of Love" to "Emotions".

Notes

Works for me, Bluesatellite, and that Yahoo link you provided really digs deep into the investigation on her age! The only thing left to do is of course implement some citations for 1969 as 1970 into that note from the opening sentence. SNUGGUMS (talk / edits) 02:14, 28 February 2021 (UTC)

I also agree with the suggestion. Keep the 1969 year in lead/infobox and 1970 in a footnote (like the article James Gunn). --Apoxyomenus (talk) 02:41, 28 February 2021 (UTC)

I agree with the users above, I have no problem with the wording. Clear Looking Glass (talk) 03:18, 28 February 2021 (UTC)

What about the note as "While some sources give a birth year of 1970, a birth announcement in Carey's hometown newspaper The Long-Islander indicates 1969, as do others." Heartfox (talk) 03:40, 28 February 2021 (UTC)

As long as the note contains the key points (i.e. acknowledging how both years are used even when highlighting birth announcement), I'm not too picky on the prose. SNUGGUMS (talk / edits) 04:04, 28 February 2021 (UTC)

Agree with SNUGGUMS, I have no problem with Heartfox's suggestion. Bluesatellite (talk) 04:20, 28 February 2021 (UTC)

This discussion was referenced in this Cracked! article Music Mystery - No One Knows How Old Mariah Carey Is, which references the already discussed Yahoo! entertainment article: What Is Mariah Carey’s Real Age? We Investigate on Her 48th (or 47th?) Birthday. --Guy Macon (talk) 19:30, 16 March 2021 (UTC)

I had a feeling somebody would notice this thread sooner or later and wrote an article about it. That could lead to other publications following suit with a 1969 birth. SNUGGUMS (talk / edits) 20:07, 16 March 2021 (UTC)

References

Somebody please change this back to 1970! Her mother said it herself. I do not appreciate this falsely stating her age pls change back to 1970 Mariah.fairy (talk) 09:46, 25 March 2021 (UTC)

Someone's word (whether Patricia or Mariah's) is not going to be used when there are secondary sources to the contrary. WP:ABOUTSELF says self-published stuff can be used when "there is no reasonable doubt as to its authenticity". In this case there is significant doubt—there are secondary sources to the contrary and Carey has been purposely evasive regarding her age for the past two decades. 183.171.121.2 (talk) 02:31, 29 March 2021 (UTC)

There is not a bad intension on that change as was pointed out. In addition, that change fits the Wikipedia:Verifiability and in terms of genealogy, that's conclusive. The reference provided of her birth announcement is not "biased", is instead the first reference of that proof. A yesteryear reference. If she lies or not about her age or her relatives and third or secondary sources do, we don't know but we still keep the 1970 year in an appropiate footnote because is a fact that we can't also delete. Keep in mind, that legally you can change your name or other vital information of your records, and exists something called age fabrication. Regards, --Apoxyomenus (talk) 02:47, 29 March 2021 (UTC)

IP above, you copy and pasted verbatim what I wrote below. I'm not from Malaysia, and this makes it seem like I am using an IP to edit. I am not this IP. Can you undo your edit or put it in quotes? I don't think you can just copy and paste other users messages as your own. Heartfox (talk) 03:39, 29 March 2021 (UTC)

Birthdate

Sorry, but you're forgetting something: WP:BLP.

It is pretty clear that Carey doesn't want -- or at least might not want -- people to necessarily know her real birth date -- stuff like this Yahoo story sure as heck makes me believe that could be true -- and/or doesn't want them to think that it's 1969. She's alive and wriggling so that matters a whole lot.

Remember: We create the public faces of people in large part. Our article Mariah Caray is the first goggle result for that entity. What we publish becomes the most widely viewed and disseminated source for her. We want to be super super careful.

WP:BLP (at WP:DOB) says

Wikipedia includes full names and dates of birth that have been widely published by reliable sources, or by sources linked to the subject such that it may reasonably be inferred that the subject does not object to the details being made public.

It doesn't say "widely and uncontestedly published by reliable sources" although you could certainly infer that that'd be assumed. If you're a strict constructionist and you kind of squint, you can parse the text to say that sources that indicate that the subject does object can just be ignored rather than taken as guidance, and as long as you only use sources that don't happen to also include the subject objecting. That's obviously perverting the intent, and most people wouldn't agree with you I think.

Also stuff like using math and sleuthery to back-figure a birthday from just the age, that's investigative journalism and we don't do that. That's right out. We don't do "Smith is 5'10" tall, as demonstrated by this photo of him standing next to Tom Hanks who is 6'0"" and like that.

It's just not our job to play "gotcha" journalism whenever we can possibly avoid it. "Oh look she wants to play cutesy and maybe pretend she's a year younger than she really is, but we caught her out". And it's not key to understanding the entity "Mariah Carey". If it was ten year age difference, that'd put her in the mileu of a different generation of entertainers, and that'd matter. This doesn't. Leave the woman alone.

I'm going to take this to the BLP noticboard. You all can go there and pile on. It'd depressing, because that noticeboard has a pretty narrow largely textual interpretation of BLP and doesn't much care about the "don't screw with other people's lives" part, so pretty sure this'll go nowhere. That doesn't make me wrong tho. Herostratus (talk) 04:30, 12 April 2021 (UTC)

• Is this a joke or something? Heartfox (talk) 04:59, 12 April 2021 (UTC)

• I can't believe someone took the time to write such drivel. Krotch Lockman (talk) 01:40, 13 April 2021 (UTC)

OK, I hear you, but this is not reassuring me that all involved editors have taken the time to thoughtfully consider the complicated balance between our encyclopedic mission and the subject's interests in sufficient depth. Herostratus (talk) 13:59, 13 April 2021 (UTC)

A perusal of this page's archives would show you just how much time has been spent on this issue. Years of it. --Escape Orbit ^(Talk) 14:06, 13 April 2021 (UTC)

Wikipedia is about facts, not what a celebrity wants. It's not like someone broke into her house and stole her passport to find the year... it's on a publicly accessible newspaper archive. I don't know why you are so outraged? Do you have new evidence for 1970 that outweighs a birth announcement and secondary sources which already stated 1969? This is a public figure. The privacy guideline is for borderline notable people, not celebrities. Heartfox (talk) 17:01, 13 April 2021 (UTC)

Wikipedia is about facts, not what a celebrity wants.^{[citation needed]}

Alright. I was harsh. "We're not here to make people sad" was the founding statement for WP:BLP and it is correct. We are not a heartless mindless fact-spewing machine. We are supposed to be an ornament to humanity, and when we write about someone we become their #1 mini-biographer. That matters. However I don't want to make you sad or mad either...

Carey's going to be alright regardless, tho. She's not going to end up homeless over this. So... maybe I'm making too much of this.

Alright, years spent. Alright, I feel strongly that the honor of that hard and skilled work shouldn't be taken away from any of you. It is admirable work in the technical sense. So... alright. I don't know. (I was just saying how much of those years were spent on "Wait a minute. Is Carey going to be OK with this?" which has to be uppermost in writing about live people.)

I'm a bug about this and have been for 16 years, ever since the [X] incident. I do run into people who are obscure who do get run over by our, well, iron heel, by having their pecadillos screamed to the world forever. It's not common but you see it. We are very powerful in creating narratives... with great power comes great responsibility.

I'm confident I'm right. But... you guys worked really hard and with skill. Carey is going to survive. You feel really strongly about this, so... I'm still right, but I don't want to make a huge deal over a very famous person. I'll stand down I guess... Herostratus (talk) 22:21, 13 April 2021 (UTC)

Birthdate new offer

Good afternoon to all,

It recently came to my attention that her birthdate was confirmed to be 1969 on this article, HOWEVER, there's this Oprah interview given by her mother & Carey proves that she was indeed born in 1970. Please fast forward to 2:25 in the video to see that her mother says "in 1970 she was born" Please let's discuss it to confirm and see if it can be used as a source. The problem with this source is that there's no written article for the interview. All I've found so far is an extract on YouTube. Hoping that it will be validated as credible source. Regards BetterOfThatWay (talk)

That has already been brought up and rejected on multiple occasions. Family members aren't always honest about their relatives. I normally would say it's fine for non-contentious details, but given the extensive debate there has been on Mariah's age, we cannot solely go off what Patricia says. SNUGGUMS (talk / edits) 19:17, 28 April 2021 (UTC)

Here we go again... Krotch Lockman (talk) 19:39, 15 May 2021 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 14 June 2021

http://images4.fanpop.com/image/photos/22200000/Mariah-s-Twins-Birth-Certificates-mariah-careys-lambs-22216351-605-792.jpg

Mariah Carey’s Daughter’s, Monroe Cannon, official birth certificate states that Mariah C. birth year is 1970. With this information being a government issued form Mariah Carey’s Wikipedia page should still include 1970 as a possible birth year as well as 1969. 2600:8801:9507:F700:87A:5177:8718:F540 (talk) 05:01, 14 June 2021 (UTC)

The 1970 claim was already included on the footnote. Please see previous discussion. Bluesatellite (talk) 05:04, 14 June 2021 (UTC)

Bad reference alert

I was looking through some Carey articles and noticed a book by "Jim Argenson" from St. Martin's Press titled "Mariah Carey Concert Tours". At first I thought it was fake but then I found it on foreign Amazon sites. It is not by St. Martin's Press, but by "Books LLC". Even on Amazon it is stated that "Please note that the content of this book primarily consists of articles available from Wikipedia or other free sources online.". Some of the preview text is identical to The Adventures of Mimi prose. This "book" is currently used in 14 articles and should definitely be removed. Heartfox (talk) 00:49, 5 July 2021 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 29 May 2021

Her date of birth is 27th March 1970 which makes her 51 years old. Nellie1331195 (talk) 00:18, 29 May 2021 (UTC)

 Not done this already has been addressed above; she was actually born in 1969, contrary to popular belief. SNUGGUMS (talk / edits) 00:44, 29 May 2021 (UTC)

Mariah Carey was born in 1970: https://www.britannica.com/biography/Mariah-Carey

• Her birth certificate says she was born in 1970.Meddymarl (talk) 00:25, 22 July 2021 (UTC)
  • First off, that's for her son. Secondly, fanpop (what you linked) is a site full of user-generated content, which renders that untrustworthy per WP:USERG. Someone easily could've posted a false document there, so this link should be taken with a grain of salt. SNUGGUMS (talk / edits) 03:24, 22 July 2021 (UTC)

References

regarded as one of the greatest female singers of all time

There are a number problems with a statement such as "has been regarded as one of the greatest female singers of all time" being in the lead paragraph.

• It's a 'weasel' phrase - That is, it's providing an opinion without telling the reader whose opinion it is. Who regards her as "one of the greatest female singers of all time"?
• It's peacocking - That is, it's talking-up Carey without actually providing any meaningful information. Why is she regarded this?
• Two of the sources used aren't the best. Personal opinions of people\websites\publications of no real musical authority.
• The Rolling Stone cite, which is notable, doesn't say this. It says she is the 79th greatest singer. Does that make her "one of"? And it makes no distinction on her gender.
• It's an opinion. Lead paragraphs are better sticking to hard facts. There are plenty of factual things to say about Carey to demonstrate her notability and success without some vague, unattributed opinion.

So I have moved the Rolling Stone's cite to somewhere more suitable, lower down, and changed the article to say more precisely what it says. --Escape Orbit ^(Talk) 11:53, 26 July 2021 (UTC)

Also, just as an additional note, I'd suggest that all the above may equally apply to the Whitney Houston article. But problems on that article do not mean that they can't/shouldn't be fixed here. --Escape Orbit ^(Talk) 16:02, 26 July 2021 (UTC)

Carey - Mottola Wedding Location

The article currently states that Mariah Carey married Tommy Mottola at St. Patricks Cathedral in New York, but this information has no source.

I would assert instead that they were married at St. Thomas Church <https://www.mamamia.com.au/mariah-carey-tommy-mottola/> The source I attached contains a photo of Carey and Mottola leaving St. Thomas Church, with the church's sign, with name, in view.Cswanson78 (talk) 04:57, 27 July 2021 (UTC)

@Cswanson78: Thank you for pointing that out. I own a copy of the Kindle version of the book cited and it says St. Thomas, not St. Patrick. Heartfox (talk) 05:05, 27 July 2021 (UTC)

Da Brat

Why isn’t Da Brat in the associated acts list? She’s has done a couple songs with Mariah Carey, and has even stared in a Movie with Mariah Carey. Wvalenti12 (talk) 04:30, 27 September 2021 (UTC)

Because the article only mentions Da Brat once, as producer. If there's more of an association, as described here, could you add it to the article? Thanks. --Escape Orbit ^(Talk) 08:08, 27 September 2021 (UTC)

Mariah’s birth year

Why does the page say Mariah was born in 1969? She was born in 1970 and her mom literally confirmed it on Oprah in 1997 Manuwinxerboy (talk) 15:57, 22 October 2021 (UTC)

This topic has been discussed at great length. Please see the talk page archives. Better sources say she was born in 1969. --Escape Orbit ^(Talk) 16:33, 22 October 2021 (UTC)

What better source than her own mother? Manuwinxerboy (talk) 23:35, 22 October 2021 (UTC)

Have you looked at the sources cited? Heartfox (talk) 23:39, 22 October 2021 (UTC)

Practically any secondary source. You see, her mother is a primary source, is not an uninvolved, unbiased observer, and also may have made a mistake. Wikipedia prefers secondary sources. --Escape Orbit ^(Talk) 12:45, 23 October 2021 (UTC)

It has been said that the page from an old newspaper via the link below proves that Mariah was born in 1969:

https://nyshistoricnewspapers.org/lccn/sn83031119/1969-04-10/ed-1/seq-15/

However, it’s possible that the year of the date on that newspaper was a misprint. Cbsteffen (talk) 09:42, 26 October 2021 (UTC)

That's entirely speculation without anything to suggest it might be true. It would require the newspaper, library and NYS to all get it wrong and not notice. --Escape Orbit ^(Talk) 10:15, 26 October 2021 (UTC)

Can we update the year to 1970 now? While a New York newspaper may or may not have published the year 1969, Mariah’s twins’ birth certificates state 1970. As these are legal documents, that year should be the one accepted.

Source: https://www.express.co.uk/celebrity-news/248739/Cannon-furious-after-birth-certificates-leak/amp

High quality image for Moroccan’s birth certificate: https://www.fanpop.com/clubs/mariah-careys-lambs/images/22216353/title/mariahs-twins-birth-certificates-photo Tmblake09 (talk) 19:00, 31 October 2021 (UTC)

How could it be a misprint? The date at the top left corner says Thursday, April 10, 1969. April 10, 1970 was a Friday. It's an unverified birth certificate with a watermark that could easily have been photoshopped and there is no guarantee they actually verified Carey's age and that she didn't just state whatever date she wanted. Why would we trust toofab.com over a newspaper?? Heartfox (talk) 19:36, 31 October 2021 (UTC)

2020-present

I think it would be a good idea to make a new section for Mariah Carey titled "2020-present", or at least one specifically for the 20s decade. It is starting to get too difficult to read the 2018-present section, as there is too much text. — Preceding unsigned comment added by JohnsonJ10 (talk • contribs) 20:24, 4 November 2021 (UTC)

Just did so here. Hopefully it helps. SNUGGUMS (talk / edits) 21:23, 4 November 2021 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 7 November 2021

Mariah carey is born in 1970

68.6.191.135 (talk) 18:11, 7 November 2021 (UTC)

 Not done 1969 is accurate per her birth announcement, and this has repeatedly been brought up already. SNUGGUMS (talk / edits) 18:31, 7 November 2021 (UTC)

Image for "2020 - present" section

Adding an image to the "2020- present" section would help break up the wall-of-text look it has currently. A picture of the memoir cover, or album cover discussed might fit in well. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.203.190.217 (talk) 22:58, 16 November 2021 (UTC)

The use of non-free images—a category both of your suggestions fall under—should be kept to a minimum per criterion#3 of WP:Non-free content criteria. This means it's best to only use those particular images in their respective articles. However, if you can find any post-2019 pictures that are free of copyright (in accordance with WP:Image use policy), then that would be preferable to add instead. SNUGGUMS (talk / edits) 00:49, 17 November 2021 (UTC)

Producer role again

Is Mariah Carey to be listed as a record producer in the infobox and the lead paragraph? She is known for producing her own recordings starting with one song—"Vanishing"—from her first album. However, she is not known for producing other artists, and she is not widely referred to as a record producer. Sources don't say "Producer Mariah Carey released a new album..."

This has been discussed before, back in 2008 and it was touched upon again later that year. No clear consensus was determined in those discussions. Binksternet (talk) 04:53, 11 October 2021 (UTC)

No. Unless she starts producing others, or starts being notable for the production of her own work, rather than her singing/writing. I'm sure she does lots of things in the making of her own albums, that otherwise might be considered a distinct job, but there's really no need to list them all in the lead sentence. It smacks of "look at all the things she does!", which is not neutral.

And I don't think it's common place to mention this in other articles about solo artists or bands. And many artist progress to doing some sort of production in the latter parts of their careers. It comes with their recording experience. But for most, it's not what they are notable for. --Escape Orbit ^(Talk) 12:12, 11 October 2021 (UTC)

On reflection; her position as the most successful female producer on the Billboard chart might make this notable enough. But we do need to establish a consensus, because a review of the page history repeatedly shows the same editors putting this in and out. --Escape Orbit ^(Talk) 12:34, 11 October 2021 (UTC)

I believe producer should be kept in both the lead paragraph and infobox. She has been credited as a producer for hundreds songs (primarily her own songs but has credit on others). Many of her achievements talked about throughout the article also relate to her role as a producer, such as the most successful female producer on the Billboard chart and being nominated for producer of the year at the 1992 Grammy Awards. However, I do believe it should be specified as record producer instead of producer, as producer is too vague and can be interpreted in many ways. If a consensus is reached, the lead sentence of the lead paragraph should remain "[...] is an American singer-songwriter, actress, and record producer." Jadenpb (talk) 01:49, 21 November 2021 (UTC)

You are citing Wikipedia which fails WP:USERG. Your examples list her as producer solely because she is credited as producer for her own recording sessions. She has never gained fame for producing other people. Binksternet (talk) 02:56, 21 November 2021 (UTC)

Heritage

Mariah has publicly nailed her colours to the mast as an Irish american, should her status be updated to reflect that?

This comment was unsigned. CapnZapp (talk) 15:54, 31 December 2021 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 1 January 2022

Mariah Carey has now had 86 weeks at number one, not 84 under the achievement section. Clayleary (talk) 05:35, 1 January 2022 (UTC)

 Done --Hemantha (talk) 07:36, 2 January 2022 (UTC)

All I want for Christmas worldwide sales

Mariah Carey all I want for Christmas has now more than 20 millions certified units/sales in the board of certifications and in the worldwide summaries is referred as 16 millions. Why isn't there an update? 188.73.245.10 (talk) 22:47, 3 January 2022 (UTC)

First of all, certifications include streaming equivalent units and therefore aren't synonymous with copies sold. Secondly, no reference (as far as I have found) gives a more recent figure than 16M, which is what we would need for any sales updates. SNUGGUMS (talk / edits) 22:59, 3 January 2022 (UTC)

Music Section Needs New Content

It seems wildly outdated and focuses on early-mid 00s critics talking about the Music Box-era ballads. Her lyricism, musicality, versatility, and emotive singing are well-documented now. It seems odd that her music would be reduced to an album from 1993 rather than descriptions of the hip-hop and soul-inflected R&B that is described in the "impact" section. Additionally, her lyricism and musicality (such as layering bgv and production) are consistently lauded by modern critics/experts. I propose we do a wide rewriting of this section to reflect current sources and perspectives. Ilovetati91 (talk • contribs) 00:36, 16 January 2022 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 19 January 2022

Mariah Carey was born on March 27, 1970, not 1969. She’s 51 years old. Sistah926 (talk) 00:50, 19 January 2022 (UTC)

 Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 00:53, 19 January 2022 (UTC)

This already has repeatedly been addressed, and she was in fact born in 1969; 1970 is a common error. SNUGGUMS (talk / edits) 01:53, 19 January 2022 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 19 January 2022 (2)

change "beauty school" to "beauty school" Enzo Gallego (talk) 22:13, 19 January 2022 (UTC)

 Done ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 12:25, 20 January 2022 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 27 January 2022

Mariah also had an album in 2020 called The Rarities. That album should be added in her discography list. 2601:14A:4501:45B0:C027:C92E:7F97:7654 (talk) 01:02, 27 January 2022 (UTC)

 Not done: The list on this page is for studio albums only, Rarities is a compilation album, which is listed at: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mariah_Carey_albums_discography#Compilation_albums - FlightTime (open channel) 01:08, 27 January 2022 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 14 February 2022

Sistah926 (talk) 02:04, 14 February 2022 (UTC) Mariah Carey was born on March 27, 1970

O Sistah926 (talk) 02:06, 14 February 2022 (UTC)

 Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 02:07, 14 February 2022 (UTC)

I've said this before and I'll say it again: 1970 is a common error and she actually was born in 1969. Since the matter has repeatedly been brought up before, it's been added to the page's FAQ, which sadly often seems to be ignored. In fact, the user already made a similar edit request here last month. SNUGGUMS (talk / edits) 03:48, 14 February 2022 (UTC)

• There is an actual YouTube video interview which Mariah & her mother Patricia Carey specifically tell Oprah that Mariah was born in 1970; they are talking about Mariah being raised in a bi-racial household and neighborhood that is predominantly white, how hard it was for Mariah growing up in that environment. It can be found on YouTube by searching "Mariah Carey Patricia Carey Oprah 1990s interview" as this page will not allow YouTube link to be included

Please correct this, set the record straight I have been a loyal #Lamb of Mariah's since the 90s, thank you.— Preceding unsigned comment added by MsIndependent206 (talk • contribs) 18:34 , 20 April 2022 (UTC)

That already has repeatedly been rejected as a basis for her birth year. SNUGGUMS (talk / edits) 19:39, 20 April 2022 (UTC)

Mariah Carey birth year is Mandela Effect.

1969? She let that lie go on for years. A few years ago every source said 1970 and now we just gonna act like that never happened? Uglydoodoo (talk) 22:51, 10 May 2022 (UTC)

On the contrary, the article does note how there are pieces supporting a 1970 birth (a common misconception), but "every source said 1970" is a stretch. Her birth announcement (as mentioned in previous threads) came in 1969, which also has multiple references backing it up. SNUGGUMS (talk / edits) 22:59, 10 May 2022 (UTC)

A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion

The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:

• Mariah Carey wax figure (5358388070).jpg

Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. —Community Tech bot (talk) 04:36, 26 June 2022 (UTC)

Article is too large – needs pruning or split

The biography currently sits at 263 kb in terms of total characters, and 82k characters of readable prose. which is higher than 60 kb, the amount at which WP:Article size recommends splitting or reducing.

It's too big.

Perhaps some information can be split out. But certainly there is room for reduction. The "Achievements" section was already split out to List of awards and nominations received by Mariah Carey but remaing in place are five paragraphs. These five could be reduced by removing lots of trivia.

Speaking of trivia, lots of that kind of stuff is found throughout the article. For example, one sentence is used to say that Carey inspired Ariana Grande. This is not needed because Carey inspired almost every female singer younger than herself. A good trivia-pruning session could really help trim the fat from the bio. Binksternet (talk) 01:12, 26 June 2022 (UTC)

Let's not blindly remove text solely to fit under a certain raw size. It can lead to problematically omitting key details, which is something I've seen happen elsewhere as a means to reduce page size. As for this article, I assume you mean the bit on Vulture discussing similarities with Grande's work. What else could be reasonably cut from "Legacy" without sacrificing comprehensiveness? SNUGGUMS (talk / edits) 01:22, 26 June 2022 (UTC)

Nobody suggesting "blindly" removing text. This is a Featured Article, which should represent the best writing that Wikipedia offers. Back in 2007 when this was listed as FA, the readable prose was only 33k characters. A lot of people have added things in bits and patches since then, which is how most Wikipedia articles get expanded. But the reading flow has suffered, and the smooth narrative has been buried under clunky bits of text that read like "Fact A then Fact B then Fact C". We can certainly improve the article by removing bits of trivia such as the sentence starting, "Carey's songs have been recorded or performed by a variety of artists, including those of older generations..." That's a WP:SYNTH-violating construction, asking the reader to make a blanket assumption about older singers. Also, the Judnick Mayard sentences can be removed without harm. Binksternet (talk) 05:35, 26 June 2022 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 2 August 2022

105.9.169.249 (talk) 19:46, 2 August 2022 (UTC)

Mariah birth day is 27 Match 1970 not 1969 source billboard.com

 Not done: please refer to the discussions and FAQ near the top of this talk page, the note next to the birth date in the lead section of the article, and this discussion. Consensus has been established that the birth date currently listed in the article is almost certainly correct. PlanetJuice ^{(talk • contribs)} 20:15, 2 August 2022 (UTC)

Correction

Mariah Carey's birthday is incorrect. On Wikipedia the birthday says 1969 but it is 1970. Her mother, Patricia Carey, verified that Mariah Carey was born in 1970. She said this during a major interview with Oprah in the mid '90s while they were discussing racism and the effects that it had. Please Google it and correct this on the website. Thank you Sarah Julianne (talk) 20:34, 7 August 2022 (UTC)

Not done. See Note A in the article which reads as follows:

While some sources give a birth year of 1970, a birth announcement in Carey's hometown newspaper The Long-Islander indicates 1969, as do others.

Shearonink (talk) 21:29, 7 August 2022 (UTC)

Requested edits - Introduction to 'Mariah Carey' page + 2020–present: The Rarities and The Meaning of Mariah Carey' section

Hello. I noticed there was some doubts about some of the edits I'd made to the 'Mariah Carey' page so thought I'd explain them in more detail.

(1) 'Carey is regarded as one of the most celebrated singer-songwriters in music history and is one of the best-selling music artists of all time, with sales of over 220 million records worldwide.'

- This is directly paraphrased from the cited source, which is from her profile on the Songwriter's Hall of Fame page. This is not a direct reference to her nomination, which is listed later in the paragraph. The basis for this edit was the introductory paragraph on Prince's page, which is cited from a Billboard magazine profile: 'Widely regarded as one of the greatest musicians of his generation, he was known for his flamboyant, androgynous persona and wide vocal range, which included a far-reaching falsetto and high-pitched screams.'. The aim is to signpost the information listed later, namely her chart statistics as a solo artist, songwriter and producer, as well as her awards and nominations.

(2) 'The remix reached number one on the US Digital Song Sales chart, became a top 10 hit in Australia, and was certified 'Silver' in the United Kingdom. The song was also nominated for the Song of the Summer Award at the 2022 MTV Video Music Awards, earning Carey her first nomination at the ceremony in fourteen years since "Touch My Body" in 2008.'

- This is all factual information about the song, 'Big Energy (Remix)'. It is correctly sourced and is directly relevant to the career section '2020–present: The Rarities and The Meaning of Mariah Carey'. The wording in the section is in accordance with how other paragraphs in her Wikipedia page regarding singles have been worded.

Would it be possible to get some consensus on these requested edits before potentially adding them in?

Cucas1234 (talk) 14:13, 26 August 2022 (UTC)

I have no objections to adding Australia or UK bits for the "Big Energy" Remix, but component charts like the digital songs chart are better reserved for the song's article and nowhere near as important as primary charts for nations. As for the award, let's wait until a winner is announced before talking about that here. No strong opinion on how exactly to phrase that bit for the lead. SNUGGUMS (talk / edits) 20:38, 26 August 2022 (UTC)

I definitely agree with SNUGGUMS. The page is on Mariah, not her songs. If the charting was perhaps important to her career (like longest running number one, etc), then I would agree. Else it seems irrelevant in comparison to the song release itself. As for the VMA, she has an awards page already and if every single award was mentioned, it would seem like we are just adding extra and superfluous information.

As for the lead, I would say that specific phrase is very loose and could apply to anyone. Perhaps if you had more sources with similar phrasing? But even then, several articles could say Mariah is the greatest vocalist of all time but it would seem imprudent to add it to Mariah's page when we could also do the same to Whitney Houston, Celine Dion, Aretha Franklin, Christina Aguilera, Jennifer Hudson, etc. Also FYI, the Prince example you've used has already been reverted. Maxwell King¹²³³²¹ 12:04, 27 August 2022 (UTC)

That makes sense, seeing as though the Prince edit was reverted. I'd be happy for the Australia and UK bits of the 'Big Energy' Remix to be added - as for the VMA, that could be mentioned following the ceremony (whether she's merely nominated or wins).

As for the 'most celebrated singer-songwriter' sentence, I was only suggesting it for consistency / signposting purposes as it seemed slightly odd that there was no build up to the list of chart achievements listed in the third paragraph. If you decide to add the sentence, there's more sources that identify it as a distinguishing point:

(1) https://www.theringer.com/music/2020/9/29/21493233/mariah-carey-unified-theory-the-meaning-of-mariah - 'Hardly any of Mariah’s contemporaries or successors in the pop music sphere write or produce their own music; but generally speaking, instead of being lauded for their singular vocal techniques, they’re framed as simple, pretty faces'.

(2) https://jezebel.com/mariah-careys-current-moment-legacy-dahling-1845289199 - 'Most outstanding is the perennial reminder of her greatness, “All I Want for Christmas Is You,” a snapshot of Carey at her vocal peak and in full mastery of her songwriting prowess that has reached across generations'

(3) https://www.forbes.com/sites/laurenalvarez/2020/09/27/why-doesnt-mariah-carey-get-the-songwriting-credit-she-deserves/?sh=268fdaea79cd - 'Mariah Carey has proven herself as a songwriter, yet many don’t give her the credit she deserves. Her memoir is promising because it will lay out how she has influenced popular culture and music on deeper levels. It will also reveal what she has had to sacrifice to do so — disclosing the exact details that solidify her placement as one of the best musicians in the last four decades. It’s about time an expanded audience (far more than Lambily) will acknowledge her talent, especially how she paved the way for so many pop stars today and how not one artist has come close to her chart-breaking records throughout the years. Fans have stood by Carey and continue to stand by her because she is the real deal, but it will be even more refreshing for the world to understand the artist’s longevity as a songwriter with her truth in the new memoir. It will further give music fans insight into what a historic songwriter she has been.'

These are just a few of the sources I could find, so do let me know if you think it could be mentioned - artists such as Michael Jackson ('he is regarded as one of the most significant cultural figures of the 20th century'), Madonna ("A prominent cultural figure in the 20th and 21st centuries, Madonna remains one of the most "well-documented figures of the modern age"), and Jay Z ('He is regarded as one of the most influential hip-hop artists of all time') have similarly phrased sentences in their introduction, and so it wouldn't be remiss for someone like Mariah to have one. Cucas1234 (talk) 13:20, 27 August 2022 (UTC)

For the record, Maxwell King123321, we can add some chart details for songs here. The reason I would support adding how it made the top 10 in Australia is because it was on the main ARIA Charts and not some Australian component. In fact, it seems to be her most recent track to reach that range since 2013's "#Beautiful" with Miguel (outside of "All I Want For Christmas Is You" going number 1 in 2018 after its 1994 peak of number 2). Maybe we could use it to signify some sort of resurgence there? Either way, America's primary chart is Billboard Hot 100 instead of the Digital Songs. SNUGGUMS (talk / edits) 14:12, 27 August 2022 (UTC)

I definitely find the sources credible exccept Jezebel as per WP:JEZEBEL. Otherwise, I see no fault in adding it but I think we would benefit from more opinions. And thanks for letting me know Snuggums. I just assumed we only mentioned Billboard Hot 100 and other big charts like that. . Maxwell King¹²³³²¹ 22:32, 27 August 2022 (UTC)

Unless someone makes a record on component charts, I generally recommend having musician bio pages stick to primary charts (or "big charts" as you call them) like Hot 100 for US, the UK Singles Chart, Australia's ARIA charts, the Canadian Hot 100, etc. for nations when talking about their songs. This is one of the bigger charts for sure. SNUGGUMS (talk / edits) 22:48, 27 August 2022 (UTC)

Perfect! I'll add in the Big Energy (Remix) information and make sure the US Digital Charts information is excluded (so will only be adding information about Australia and the BPI certification in the UK - I can update the VMA information once the ceremony is completed).

As per the additional sources for the 'most celebrated singer-songwriter' line, in place of the Jezebel source, there is also this Vibe magazine profile: https://www.vice.com/en/article/wj3dvm/mariah-carey-best-songs-guide-playlist-essay

"Beyond her unnatural ability to sing, the voice she possessed in her songwriting was equally as strong. “Even from the beginning, I said, ‘If you want to put me with people to write with and collaborate, that’s fine, but don’t try to force me to record someone else’s song,” she told Rolling Stone in 2006. Writing was a part of establishing her autonomy."

It is impossible to identify every source / review that mentions her songwriting - in light of the listed sources (from such institutions as the Songwriter's Hall of Fame, The Ringer, Forbes and Vibe), would it be possible to include the line? Cucas1234 (talk) 16:40, 28 August 2022 (UTC)

Re: Additional Page - 'Cultural Impact of Mariah Carey'

Hello! I am just writing to enquire as to whether the possibility of a separate page on the 'Cultural Impact of Mariah Carey' has been suggested yet (akin to the 'Cultural Impact of Madonna' and the 'Cultural Impact of Shakira' page).

I have noticed that the sections on her Wikipedia page - specifically from the point of 'Stage and Performances' through to the 'Legacy' section - are becoming increasingly bloated. Moreover, a lot of the points made in the article are only made perfunctorily, with no real explanation or exegisis:

What strands of hip hop did she end up popularising, and how so? How exactly did her use of melisma influence other vocalists? - a forthcoming book by the critic TOM BREIHAN, entitled The Number Ones: Twenty Chart-Topping Hits That Reveal the History of Pop Music', will discuss the impact of Vision of Love and Carey's career more broadly (November, 2022). How has reception of her 'diva' persona evolved regarding the gendered dimensions to the term?, etc...

A number of important points - notably her role in breaking down still-existent racial barriers in popular music (a point examined by a number of academics and sociologists) has not been elucidated on at all. I would suggest that, though a summary of this point would be necessary in the 'Legacy' section, a new page entirely would be required to do justice to the nuances inherent in these discussion points. (listed sources below that make specific reference to the above point).

(1) an essay in Vulture - 'The Fiction of the Color Line'

(https://www.vulture.com/article/mariah-carey-nella-larsen-passing.html)

Academic monographs: see also the 'Mariah Carey' listings on the Mixed Race Studies Database, an online catalogue of scholarship on multiraciality. (http://www.mixedracestudies.org/?tag=mariah-carey)

(2) Crossing B(l)ack: Mixed-Race Identity in Modern American Fiction and Culture - Sika A. Dagbovie-Mullins, Associate Professor of English Florida Atlantic University.

(3) Tragic No More: Mixed Race Women and the Nexus of Sex and Celebrity - Caroline A. Streeter, Associate Professor of English University of California, Los Angeles

(4) Amalgamation and Hypodescent: The Question of Ethnoracial Mixture in the History of the United States - David A. Hollinger, Preston Hotchkis Professor of American History, University of California at Berkeley

(5) Between God And Gangsta Rap - Michael Eric Dyson, Professor in the College of Arts and Science and in the Divinity School at Vanderbilt University Cucas1234 (talk) 06:49, 31 August 2022 (UTC)

Comment: Hip-hop impact and stuffs like that seems to be more as a "musical impact" rather than "cultural" in the strict sense of the word. Writing about modern figures is subjective in these fields, and I feel is very important have WP:UNDUE; something that for example, Shakira's cultural impact article doesn't have nor even BTS. In the sociology/cultural stages, is important having datation, because AGEMATTERS. An established figure like the Beatles, or Madonna have easily that. Citations are also important, for example, if a scholar like Camille Paglia have made a critical analysis about Madonna, the possibility of seeing a review about it from other(s) scholar(s), even outside of English-speaking areas are likely to be possible if not distantly common. Add also possible reassessments; and WP:WORLDWIDEVIEW. All of these stuffs talks itself about how a figure like them are likely to be an "established" one in academia/intellectual discourses. Nowadays is not uncommon to see some scholarly articles devoted to artists like Carey, but I think it should follow many of the above steps. In the past, proposals about Beyoncé or Taylor Swift were made but were finally avoided. --Apoxyomenus (talk) 07:30, 31 August 2022 (UTC)

Duly noted - I have included some additional information in the 'Legacy' section of Carey's page regarding the impact of her racial heritage.

As per your concerns about 'musical impact' vs 'cultural' impact, I do think it is important not to regurgitate the information already listed on the 'Legacy' page and to be clear about the limits of the article. However, its worth noting that hip-hop is considered both a specific musical genre and as a culture in its own right - see Hip hop (culture).

Carey's 'musical impact' with regards to pop and hip hop is itself intimately bound with her racial background (as a biracial woman), particularly where pop and hip hop are traditionally viewed as genres dominated by predominantly 'white' and 'black' artists respectively. And there is a body of scholarship that touches on this, among other topics relating to Carey, that can, even upon first glance, be dated back to critical analyses by academics such as Michael Eric Dyson (see the chapter "Mariah Carey and "Authentic" Black Music" in Between God and Gangsta Rap: Bearing Witness to Black Culture, Oxford University Press, USA, 1997). The existence of a sizeable, solely academic database on Carey confirms this http://www.mixedracestudies.org/?tag=mariah-carey); these examples do not include the cultural criticism on Carey in the popular press.

I also think that other points, in addition to the points about race and multiracialism, could fall under the umbrella of a Cultural Impact page - particularly relating to the 'diva' persona, as well as her popular association with Christmas. It need not be as sizeable as the Madonna and Beatles' page, but there is enough existing cultural criticism to present the topic in a neutral manner (unlike the Shakira article).Cucas1234 (talk) 07:51, 31 August 2022 (UTC)

Comments: In the previous months/weeks, it was addressed in a thread here about trim/condense some part of information given in sections like Legacy as far I remember. Regarding Hip-Hop music, yes it's intrinsic with its culture, but at the same time came from a broader USA-perspective giving their historical background as a multidiverse nation, the country where the genre was born. As far I remember, Beyonce's cultural impact article was made in many regards in similar ways treated here, but it was dismissed by reasons that includes having an USA-centric perspective without presenting a broader popular and scholarly prose/sources in the sense of WP:WORLDWIDEVIEW. For similar concerns, at least for me, existing cultural impacts articles such as Shakira or BTS, shouldn't exist. But at the end, I understand that each point of view vary even what "information" and "data" can be included or excluded in an article. If Carey's cultural article exists, perhaps, sections like criticisms/and its reviews from a considerable view in the academic/intellectual worlds seems something imperative; considering is not uncommon to see that treatment in the cultural and sociology discourses, and as part of WP:UNDUE. Also giving the fact that Carey will be presented as such, in the whole sense of "cultural" and "cultural impact", something that can be positive/mixed/negative. This can solidify every shadow, and every perspective giving that for many, writing about modern figures in this way is "subjective". A draft/user sandbox could brings a general perspective about your proposal and/or a RFC. Regards. --Apoxyomenus (talk) 10:07, 31 August 2022 (UTC)

Please update the number of confirmed album sales!

Hi,

I've just read in Mariah's article, in the chapter "Achievements", that Mariah has 69.5 million confirmed album sales as of March 2022. These numbers have been updated and as of December 3,2022 she has 72 million confirmed albums sold in the US, making her go up in the ranking even further.

Here the link of the RIAA site that shows it: https://www.riaa.com/gold-platinum/?tab_active=top_tallies&ttt=TAA#search_section

Thank you :) VeryCreativeNameIKnow (talk) 16:01, 3 December 2022 (UTC)

 Done TheWikiholic (talk) 16:20, 3 December 2022 (UTC)

Queen of Christmas trademark attempt

Why doesn't the article include the attempt to trademark Queen of Christmas? NPR 2022 November "That effort proved controversial", Washington Post 2022 Nov "“This is about ... attempt to basically monopolize ‘Queen of Christmas’", etc. - EarthFurst (talk) 09:32, 9 December 2022 (UTC)

Grammar

'The clip became a viral internet meme and been brought back in many other interviews' should read 'The clip became a viral internet meme and has been brought up in many other interviews' 217.88.39.71 (talk) 17:11, 13 December 2022 (UTC)

 Done thank you for pointing this out. SNUGGUMS (talk / edits) 18:11, 13 December 2022 (UTC)

Hyperbole

I think it is a seasonal thing, but this article tends to attract hyperbolic fansite content around this time of year. For instance;

• "Originally one of the most prominent artists of her generation" - blatant peacocking
• "immortalized" - scarcely neutral
• "making Carey generally associated with the season" - a weaselly claim
• "Considered one of the greatest vocalists in popular music" - another weaselly claim
• "to date, only" - To what date? The reader has no idea when this was written.

Could editors please try to remain neutral and factual. Carey's achievements speak for themselves without this nonsense. Escape Orbit ^(Talk) 14:58, 17 December 2022 (UTC)

Seasonal or not, it could help to give this page ECP when semi-protection hasn't stopped such fancruft from being inserted. SNUGGUMS (talk / edits) 15:39, 17 December 2022 (UTC)

I agree with some of these, but the "one of the greatest vocalists" claim is well-cited within the body of the article.2603:6081:8405:9C49:31FB:333A:4B7C:40F4 (talk) 05:15, 24 December 2022 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 24 December 2022

Mariah Carey was NOT born in 1969. She was born in 1970. 168.149.233.236 (talk) 23:50, 24 December 2022 (UTC)

 Not done: See FAQ at the top of this talk page Cannolis (talk) 00:38, 25 December 2022 (UTC)

Middle name

I’ve heard that her middle name is Angela, but is there a good source for that so that it can be added to the article? oof101015 (talk) 17:23, 25 December 2022 (UTC)

That's false; she doesn't even have any middle name, and no credible reference uses one for her. SNUGGUMS (talk / edits) 17:49, 25 December 2022 (UTC)

Update of certified album sales + wrong ranking

In the fourth paragraph ("Carey is one of the best-selling ...") is says that she has 72 million certified album units and is 10th overall in the ranking. Well, now she has, according to the RIAA, 74 million units sold and she's actually ELEVENTH overall (Pink Floyd is 10th with 75 million). She'll probably overtake them sometime in the future, but that's for another time.

Here are the links to the official site: https://www.riaa.com/gold-platinum/?tab_active=top_tallies&ttt=TAA https://www.riaa.com/gold-platinum/?tab_active=awards_by_artist#search_section VeryCreativeNameIKnow (talk) 10:27, 21 January 2023 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 11 February 2023

we should put that she is called “the songbird supreme”, “queen of r&b and “queen of pop” then everything else. JordanLopez27 (talk) 23:12, 11 February 2023 (UTC)

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. Are you requesting that the first sentence read: Mariah Carey is called “the songbird supreme”, “queen of r&b and “queen of pop”? Or that the second sentence go into these nicknames as well? In either case, probably no Cannolis (talk) 02:46, 12 February 2023 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 13 March 2023

RhaenyraHearts (talk) 05:33, 13 March 2023 (UTC)

References

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. Cannolis (talk) 05:38, 13 March 2023 (UTC)

See WP:BLOGS. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 09:52, 13 March 2023 (UTC)

Vocal range is no longer five-octave!

I think it's very misleading to say Mariah has a five octave vocal range. If you look at recent live performances of her. You can clearly see that she no longer possesses the vocal agiility to sing those high chest voice registers. The reference from Guinness world records is not accurate pertaining to this singer's current vocal ability. I am suggesting that you omitt that line in her page where it says "referred to as the songbird supreme by the Guinness book of records she is noted for her five octave vocal range". It is simply misleading, that was relevant at a time when she had that ability. However at present, Mariah Carey does not possess a so called "five-octave vocal range". TypeWriter686 (talk) 20:44, 17 March 2023 (UTC)

If you are analyzing Carey's recent output and figuring out her range you are violating WP:No original research. Wikipedia exists to summarize the literature. We will adjust the vocal range only if a reliable WP:SECONDARY source talks about it. Binksternet (talk) 21:01, 17 March 2023 (UTC)

Legacy

Her legacy and influence on other should be shown Tecarterk31 (talk) 07:55, 25 March 2023 (UTC)

Does the "Legacy" section not already do that in some capacity? SNUGGUMS (talk / edits) 13:51, 25 March 2023 (UTC)

Virign Record Deal

I have noticed that there seems to be a mix of sources on Carey's Virgin Record deal :

$80m: [2] [3] [4] [5]

$100m: [6]

Both: [7]

I was just wondering if there has been a consensus about this before perhaps as I could not find anything in the archives. If not, should the wording be changed to a reported $80-100 OR should we stick to the $80? If the latter, then perhaps a note could added similarly to her birthday about the various sources? Maxwell King¹²³³²¹ 12:45, 14 April 2023 (UTC)

The correct number is 80 million. 100 million is when you add the 20 million signing bonus. Heartfox (talk) 14:47, 14 April 2023 (UTC)

Alright thanks. Will change everything to that. Maxwell King¹²³³²¹ 23:36, 14 April 2023 (UTC)

Junk content

Can we stop adding this ridiculous MTV poll from 2003? @Ilovetati91: you are adding bare URLs to the lead of what is supposed to be a featured article. You have accused me of vandalism when I removed unsourced content. I am one step away from opening an ANI case as you have a long pattern of disruptive editing on other articles such as Butterfly World Tour. The USA Today article you are referring to says this:

Mariah Carey is the greatest voice of the past two decades. So declares MTV2, which unveils its highly debatable list of the era's most unique and powerful voices at 2 p.m. ET/11 a.m. PT Saturday. On the two-hour 22 Greatest Voices -- first in a series of countdowns that also will anoint rappers, bands and performers -- celebrities, critics and fans weigh in on the roster, determined by votes cast at MTV2.com. Freddie Mercury was second, trailed by Whitney Houston, Bono, Christina Aguilera, Alanis Morissette, Kurt Cobain, Bjork, Celine Dion, Tupac Shakur, Michael Jackson, Chris Cornell, Eminem, David Bowie, Alicia Keys, Steven Tyler, Jewel, Thom Yorke, Mary J. Blige, Michael Stipe, Sade and Bruce Springsteen. Quibbles and quarrels are expected and welcome.

The list's diversity results from broadly defined criteria that go beyond "range and style," says Tom Calderone, music and talent vice president at MTV2 and big sister MTV. "We considered how the voice complements the music and connects with listeners. It comes down to how compelling and influential that voice is to people's lives."

Why no Billie Holiday or Roy Orbison? The list surveys only the past 20 years, a timeline familiar to MTV2 viewers and a period conveniently rife with readily available video footage.

There is nothing about Blender. It's an online poll from MTV2. There was no critical or scientific consensus involved. It's just television programming to draw in viewers, as noted by USA Today: "The list surveys only the past 20 years, a timeline familiar to MTV2 viewers and a period conveniently rife with readily available video footage". This is not notable or something that remotely needs to be in the article, much less in the lead. Please stop adding this junk and reverse your edits. Heartfox (talk) 05:26, 28 April 2023 (UTC)

You're repeatedly stan-warring and trying to rationalize removing sourced content. Wikipedia is meant to objectively reflect sources, and you're making pointed edits laced with threats. And it was not purely an online poll as both the MTV2 television special dedicated to reporting it and Tom Calderone's quote in the USA Today article (that you just quoted) note. The list originated on MTV and their sister channel, MTV2, subsequently ran a special in March.

And no, the Butterfly World Tour article involved a vandal incorrectly removing a sourced figure from a book. Ilovetati91 (talk) 05:43, 28 April 2023 (UTC)

And rather than be adversarial, why not assist in correcting the format of the valid sources? I can see that I did not add them correctly, but I am not sure how to remedy this. Ilovetati91 (talk) 05:45, 28 April 2023 (UTC)

The poll is here. MTV2 picked the artists, and then people voted to rank them. Please read WP:NOTEVERYTHING: "Information should not be included in this encyclopedia solely because it is true or useful. A Wikipedia article should not be a complete exposition of all possible details, but a summary of accepted knowledge regarding its subject." We already know she is a good singer as her technique and abilities are summarized; we don't need to include a random online poll. With respect, you have been editing for almost 10 years. If you do not know how to cite sources beyond bare URLs and expect me to correct your edits after accusing me of vandalism for removing unsourced content, then you should not be editing in this area. I would encourage you to spend time elsewhere on Wikipedia other than the leads of featured article BLPs.

On Butterfly World Tour, you reverted multiple edits to undo one instead of doing so manually, which undid a merge in the process. I had to restore the merge manually after I wasted much time dealing with your disruptive editing there. You never responded on the talk page either. Heartfox (talk) 06:04, 28 April 2023 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 21 May 2023

Change the birth year 1969 to 1970, as this is the official year she was born per an interview with her mother!!

<https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iZfz3A-ptA> MrDJ899 (talk) 01:40, 21 May 2023 (UTC)

 Not done Patricia already has been repeatedly rejected as a basis for that year, also there's an official birth announcement from 1969. SNUGGUMS (talk / edits) 02:09, 21 May 2023 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 5 June 2023

Theirs is an interview from May 1994 with David Letterman where Mariah says she has 24 years. Proof that Mariah was born in 1970. It was also stated by her mom during an Oprah interview 80.174.248.130 (talk) 01:32, 5 June 2023 (UTC)

 Not done for now: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the {{Edit semi-protected}} template. See note a regarding her birth year. RudolfRed (talk) 01:39, 5 June 2023 (UTC)

Monroe born first

i dont know the birth order of mariahs twins. 2404:8000:1027:85F6:4C19:D07F:65B6:397E (talk) 05:52, 10 July 2023 (UTC)

Artists who have been Influenced

Hi there! I was wondering, why does this page not have a list of artists who have named Carey as an influence? Other artists have it but Carey does not. I remember there was something once but was there a reason why it was removed? Maxwell King¹²³³²¹ 06:20, 21 September 2023 (UTC)

Much better than a laundry list of artists is a few prominent examples with prose explanation about the connection. The guideline WP:INDISCRIMINATE is a good reason why long lists are not so great. Binksternet (talk) 12:11, 21 September 2023 (UTC)

Why is this not a case for other prominent artists such as Whitney Houston, Taylor Swift or Ariana Grande? This page seems to be singled out. Maxwell King¹²³³²¹ 12:15, 21 September 2023 (UTC)

The Lego Batman Movie

In considering her career as a whole, is the fact that Carey had a supporting role in The Lego Batman Movie really important enough to merit mentioning the the lead of the article? Morgan695 (talk) 20:33, 23 October 2023 (UTC)

Being a supporting role doesn't inherently mean it's not worth having, and at the very least it helps show the range of her film endeavors after Glitter and some non-musical ventures during the 2010s. Not seeing any harm with inclusion. SNUGGUMS (talk / edits) 22:33, 23 October 2023 (UTC)

Middle name

Mariah Carey's middle name is Angela. Can you please add that in the introduction. "Mariah Carey is an American singer" to "Mariah Angela Carey is an American singer" 74.15.254.221 (talk) 07:44, 25 October 2023 (UTC)

 Not done she actually doesn't have a middle name. SNUGGUMS (talk / edits) 13:17, 25 October 2023 (UTC)

How do you know? Did she tell you that? 74.15.254.221 (talk) 17:02, 25 October 2023 (UTC)

Mariah (along with Nick Cannon) specifically noted that her lack of a middle name is why their daughter Monroe doesn't have one either. SNUGGUMS (talk / edits) 18:09, 25 October 2023 (UTC)

D.O.B. Missing In Quick Info. Box

I don’t understand why Ms. Carey’s date of birth has been blocked from being seen in the quick info box. It appears someone made the change and then said it must be discussed before being returned. Where’s the initial discussion about the alteration being made in the first place? Strangely, Brenda Lee’s page has been altered the very same way. Wikipedia isn’t the place for some sort of Christmas rivalry. Things need to be put right again on both profiles. Clarawolfe (talk) 09:14, 25 November 2023 (UTC)

I'm so sorry. I think it is, in fact, the biggest, weirdest Christmas coincidence ever. On Ms.

Lee's page, the problem is that someone has put a reference name right after the birthday and age generator, and it's causing the date of birth to not be visible. Clarawolfe (talk) 10:00, 25 November 2023 (UTC)

How is it not displaying for you? I can see the DOB in infobox just fine. SNUGGUMS (talk / edits) 15:10, 25 November 2023 (UTC)

Thank you SNUGGUMS for returning it. Clarawolfe (talk) 03:06, 27 November 2023 (UTC)

@Clarawolfe The problem appears to be on your browser. No-one else is having any difficulty seeing her date of birth and age. Escape Orbit ^(Talk) 19:11, 25 November 2023 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 11 December 2023

 Not done; it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Alexeyevitch^(talk) 21:07, 11 December 2023 (UTC)

Incorrect DOB

The date of birth listed as March 27, 1969 is incorrect. Carey's mother herself stated in a televised interview on the Oprah Winfrey show that Mariah was born in 1970, while Mariah was also present in the interview. That can be seen in the YouTube video posted below at exactly time 2:25. The only "sources" claiming DOB to be 1969 are unverified news articles, which are incorrect, and just keep recirculating misinformation. It wasn't until the last 10 or so years that the incorrect DOB started to circulate. How can this be corrected?

https://youtube.com/watch?v=iZfz3A-ptAw&si=BrU5K_eIX4NxITEj Skeeyo (talk) 18:36, 15 December 2023 (UTC)

 Not done that interview has repeatedly been rejected as a basis for the year 1970, also there was a birth announcement for Mariah that leaves no reasonable doubt 1969 is in fact correct. SNUGGUMS (talk / edits) 20:14, 15 December 2023 (UTC)

Lead image

2018 vs 2023

Anyone have any thoughts on using a new image from December 14 as the infobox image? I don't have any strong thoughts either way but I thought it kind of makes sense to use a more recent image than one from 5 years ago, not that she looks dramatically different but it kind of aligns with the Christmas theme that she is (now) known for so in a way it is more representative than a headshot from the Caution era? Heartfox (talk) 04:12, 16 December 2023 (UTC)

At minimum, I'd crop that 2023 shot to focus more on her face before adding it to infobox. SNUGGUMS (talk / edits) 04:57, 16 December 2023 (UTC)

2018 vs 2023

Cropped example. Heartfox (talk) 08:10, 16 December 2023 (UTC)

Looks good, and my preference of the crops would be File:Mariah Carey Library of Congress 2023 1 Cropped 3.png. SNUGGUMS (talk / edits) 14:36, 16 December 2023 (UTC)

Support the change. --Apoxyomenus (talk) 15:35, 16 December 2023 (UTC)

Lead image #2

Can we please replace the lead image in the infobox from File:Mariah Carey Library of Congress 2023 1 Cropped 3.png to File:Mariah Carey Library of Congress 2023 2 (cropped)02.jpg? Because I think that image has better quality and is a litter bigger than the other one. 2601:195:C001:2630:24CD:8E86:12E7:1499 (talk) 00:14, 7 January 2024 (UTC)

I don't think it's as flattering. It looks like she has lipstick on her teeth and she is looking off the page. Heartfox (talk) 06:05, 7 January 2024 (UTC)

I agree with HFox.--PeterGriffin • Talk2Me 07:06, 7 January 2024 (UTC)

Article issues

Is there any article issues that needed to be fixed? After unsuccessfully requesting this for TFA, I am planning to have the article featured in December in time for Christmas. RMXY (talk • contribs) 01:43, 2 February 2024 (UTC)

Someone please fix...

...the sentence "The last name Carey was adopted by her Venezuelan grandfather, Francisco Núñez, after he emigrated to New York." which make no sense. Beyond My Ken (talk) 05:19, 7 February 2024 (UTC) Beyond My Ken (talk) 05:19, 7 February 2024 (UTC)

@Beyond My Ken I don't understand, it makes sense to me. Her grandfather changed his last name when he moved to New York. Escape Orbit ^(Talk) 08:02, 7 February 2024 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 4 February 2024

Mariah has 6 Grammys now!!!! 2603:7080:7100:160:A838:C39D:B538:E91B (talk) 04:31, 4 February 2024 (UTC)

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. – 64andtim ^(talk) 04:33, 4 February 2024 (UTC)

she does not. Her Grammy page still lists her as having five. Cat taken for a bath (talk) 03:07, 5 March 2024 (UTC)

Author, movie and musical producer

She is also an author (the meaning of mariah carey, and several childrens book) a movie director producer (a christmas melody,..) and produced the musical some like it hot ... 82.82.77.198 (talk) 04:11, 6 March 2024 (UTC)

Still FA?

Many years have passed since Mariah Carey became a featured article. Do you think the article still meets the FA standards even after its promotion in 2006? ScarletViolet (talk • contribs) 12:14, 12 March 2024 (UTC)

While not a perfect article, I don't see any glaring issues from a glance that would warrant FAR. If you believe it isn't up to par, then first list your concerns here and we'll try to resolve them. SNUGGUMS (talk / edits) 12:18, 12 March 2024 (UTC)

ScarletViolet, do you have specific concerns wrt the FA criteria? Nikkimaria (talk) 03:20, 14 March 2024 (UTC)

Nope. Heartfox commented that the article did not meet FAC in current state when I nominated Mariah for TFA. Nikkimaria please re-review the article again and I would like to hear the article's concerns. ScarletViolet (talk • contribs) 02:47, 16 March 2024 (UTC)

Mainly issues with WP:FACR 1c, and probably others would take issue with 1a. There are some websites that aren't high-quality sources for a biography (or really anything) like TheThings, Fame10, Nicki Swift, Daily Mirror, Gossip Cop, Daily Express, etc. Also, the most significant scholarly work on Carey (Why Mariah Carey Matters by Andrew Chan) isn't cited, as are two recent academic book chapters (ISBN 978-1538169063 and ISBN 978-1-5013-6825-7). Heartfox (talk) 03:54, 16 March 2024 (UTC)

Okay. I would like to re-open the FAR on this article. ScarletViolet (talk • contribs) 10:09, 23 March 2024 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 27 March 2024

2603:9001:900:2A11:ED8A:A0F0:4BAF:2B43 (talk) 22:52, 27 March 2024 (UTC)

 Not done: She does not have a middle name. Tollens (talk) 23:01, 27 March 2024 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 28 March 2024

YOUR RELATIONSHIPS FOR HER ARE NOT UP TO DATE. She is currently dating Evan Rabinowitz from 2022- Present. 70.160.102.115 (talk) 01:24, 28 March 2024 (UTC)

 Not done: Who? Please provide a reliable source. Maxwell King¹²³³²¹ 01:33, 28 March 2024 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 29 March 2024

Mariah Carey was born in the year 1970 as per her Memoir, not the 1969 stated in the article. 121.200.4.189 (talk) 07:41, 29 March 2024 (UTC)

 Not done: Please see Talk:Mariah Carey/FAQ and this note in the article. Jonathan Deamer (talk) 07:49, 29 March 2024 (UTC)

Hyping in the lead

Can we please try to stick to facts in the lead paragraph. Yes, there are plenty of articles to be found where Carey is "regarded" as one of the greatest. But these amount to the opinion of one person. The lead should focus on facts. If these facts lead the reader to decide that she is the greatest, then that's fine, but unattributed opinions declaring it are not acceptable, and opinions about her can be left to the article body. Escape Orbit ^(Talk) 11:07, 1 April 2024 (UTC)

I was just coming here to mention this... Re: these latest edits - Carey is not regarded as one of the greatest singers in the history of music, she is known as one of the best singers in pop music per the Rolling Stone cited source. Shearonink (talk) 15:55, 4 April 2024 (UTC)

If you look at Jennifer Lopez, Ariana Grande, Beyonce pages they are just as puffery as Mariah’s. I get that she is not as huge of a legend as Michael Jackson, Whitney Houston, David Bowie, or Elvis but it seems common now for A-list celebrities’ pages 2402:800:6105:C08C:F404:2A01:5B86:4B2B (talk) 11:55, 5 April 2024 (UTC)

This is a subjective opinion and one that is not borne out by the sheer number of artists from successive generations that have cited Mariah as an influence. Edits regarding puffery are duly noted and have been edited on the Whitney Houston page, regarded as a peer and contemporary of Carey, for consistency. Cucas1234 (talk) 16:09, 6 April 2024 (UTC)

I didn't say Mariah is not influential or who was more influential but clearly Houston was ranked higher than Mariah on the list that both pages cited (Houston 2nd, Mariah 5th). It would be more appropriate for both pages to quote exactly the name of the magazine and specific number that Houston and Mariah were ranked so it is more factual than just fan opinion. This puffery is happening with a alot pages like Elvis, Michael Jackson, David Bowie and current artists like Beyonce, Ariana Grande, jennifer Lopez. 2402:800:6105:C08C:2CBB:EB95:B085:D4F6 (talk) 17:08, 6 April 2024 (UTC)

@Cucas1234 What's on other articles isn't a concern when ensuring that this article is at its best and follows Wikipedia guidelines. Fans comparing one article against the other, in an attempt to make their favourite appear best, is half the problem. Carey is a very popular and successful artist, as testfied and obvious by the facts. How she compares to other very popular and successful acts is always going to be largely a matter of subjective opinion, which should not be the focus of the lead, and should never be unattributed. Escape Orbit ^(Talk) 17:26, 6 April 2024 (UTC)

The WP:OTHERCONTENT/WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS comments about content... The lead section should stick to exactly what is in the cited sources that appear in the main body of the article text that support those lead statements. Carey is an amazing singer, she sold millions of records and Houston did as well. Trying to stuff the lead section of any singer's/musician's/artist's article full of all the possible accolades they might have gotten in their careers - along with editors POV descriptors that don't actually appear in the cited sources - doesn't serve any of these artists well. Yeah, let's stick to the verifiable facts in the lead. Shearonink (talk) 20:12, 6 April 2024 (UTC)

Lead Image

The description of the lead image is "Librarian of Congress Carla Hayden and Santa Claus present pop superstar Mariah Carey with a framed certificate honoring her induction into the 2023 Library of Congress National Recording Registry"

Are we sure it's the Santa Claus? I believe it's the real Carla Hayden, but I've been stung by guys claiming to be Santa Claus before, just feel like we should confirm it's him, or make it clear that it might not be the man himself. 141.11.200.117 (talk) 17:31, 28 April 2024 (UTC)

Reference formatting

Hello all, currently this article is at WP:FARC and needs to meet current standards to retain FA status. Right now there is an inconsistent citation format as some are from named references in the references section while others use templates in-text. Can we get a consensus as to which style should be used for this article? Because of the number of references I am leaning toward named references listed in the references section and excluding templates from the body as this will make it easier to edit prose and organize things. Heartfox (talk) 05:04, 27 May 2024 (UTC)

Not sure which to use, but personally I'm more concerned with overall credibility of refs. Getting rid of subpar citations should be a bigger priority and I saw that was mentioned in the FAR. Has that point been resolved yet? I haven't had a chance to thoroughly examine the page for them. SNUGGUMS (talk / edits) 13:19, 27 May 2024 (UTC)

Episcopalian

If she is an active Episcopalian there would be better sourcing available than a sole concert review article. Heartfox (talk) 20:12, 11 June 2024 (UTC)

Mention of Carey's high-charting singles in lead

Does the "list" we have in the lead seem overzealous or superfluous to anyone else? It seems to be a dynamic list as she has MANY high charting songs (19 number-one songs, 28 top-ten songs, etc.). I feel like there would have to be a "line" to draw so to speak on what we include, however, as per Wikipedia:WikiProject Lists, a dynamic list is "intentionally inexhaustive, as they are only meant to list notable examples from a given category". As Carey's list would include 19+ songs, would it not be better to just mention "One Sweet Day" and "We Belong Together" as top songs of the 90's and 00's decade? What are everyone else's thoughts? Maxwell King¹²³³²¹ 13:12, 10 August 2024 (UTC)

Patricia and Alison Carey’s deaths

Mariah’s mother, Patricia and sister, Alison, have both passed away on the same day over this past weekend. Cornmazes (talk) 22:42, 26 August 2024 (UTC)

Another source: [8] QuicoleJR (talk) 00:21, 27 August 2024 (UTC)

Citation 424

Can someone check the link to SunSeeker about the house burning down? Doesn't work for me ~~~ Jellinator (talk) 06:50, 27 August 2024 (UTC)

Fixed. GA-RT-22 (talk) 18:14, 27 August 2024 (UTC)

About Birth Year

Mariah Carey could be born in 1970 as well, we're not officially sure about both years. Mariah and her mother said that she was born in 1970. 2001:818:EB21:7400:8428:3818:D902:5336 (talk) 23:09, 9 October 2024 (UTC)

I think every major news source has switched to 1969. Heartfox (talk) 23:21, 9 October 2024 (UTC)

The fact that her birth announcement got published in 1969 leaves no reasonable doubt she was born in this year instead of 1970. Patricia's word has repeatedly been rejected as a basis for birth year while Mariah has often intentionally been ambiguous in a playful manner when discussing it, jokingly claiming to have "anniversaries" instead of birthdays. SNUGGUMS (talk / edits) 01:24, 10 October 2024 (UTC)