Talk:Lulu (Final Fantasy)

Stub?

Tedius Zanaurkando added a stub notice to the page, which struck me as a little odd, as it didn't strike me as particularly, well, stubby. It's not as long as some articles, to be sure, but it seemed fairly reasonable given the subject matter. But, hey, what do I know, right? :-) Tedius (and anyone else, for that matter): was there anything in particular you felt should be in here that prompted the stub notice? – Seancdaug 10:11, Jun 17, 2005 (UTC)

GA Review

This review is transcluded from Talk:Lulu (Final Fantasy)/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Nominator: Kung Fu Man (talk · contribs)

Reviewer: Electroguv (talk · contribs) 16:11, 24 March 2024 (UTC)

Let me break the ice, to paraphrase the character in the limelight, who is due some belated recognition. Lulu wrote the book on the dark feminine long before The Scornful Sorceress read it, and her cruel elegance is still quite bewitching. Final Fantasy X is one of my favorite video games ever due in no small part to its likeable heroines, so I'm glad I stumbled upon this page. I'll be back with a review shortly. Electroguv (talk) 16:11, 24 March 2024 (UTC)

Seeing as this review page has been up awhile without much update, I just wanted to note that my run-through of the article has been delayed by some unforeseen work-related events. I will get back with my comments as soon as possible. Electroguv (talk) 11:16, 1 April 2024 (UTC)

Review

Without further ado, let the review commence.

Lead and infobox

• To kick things off, let's start with the character infobox. I wonder if the motion capture credit should go before those of the voice actresses, given that most fans likely first encountered Lulu through hearing her speak.

• Lulu … is a fictional black magic user in the Final Fantasy series, and … the Black Mage guardian of protagonist, Yuna. — In what seems to be a holdover from the last version of Lulu's entry before it was folded into the wider character list (and then restored as a standalone article), the character's speciality is mentioned twice in the same sentence. I would suggest two options here:

1) Consider replacing one of the instances with a synonym such as "character" and rewording the rest of the sentence accordingly, in the vein of: Lulu is a character in the Final Fantasy series and one of the protagonists of Final Fantasy X, where she is a practitioner of black magic who accompanies the summoner Yuna on her mission to defeat the creature Sin.

2) Try splitting the sentence to streamline the description of her credentials, like this: Lulu is a fictional character in Square Enix's Final Fantasy franchise. She is introduced in Final Fantasy X as one of its protagonists and a black magic user who acts as a guardian to Yuna, a summoner in the world of Spira.

Within the proposed revisions, it makes sense to retain the existing wikilinks while adding one to "Spira" in the second case.

• As a general note, it would be good to place the Black Mage bit (the one about the FF class, not the occult profession) after the introduction. As it reads now, the in-game term is presented right out of the gate with little context, and this fictional element might be easier to explain in a separate sentence.

• Designed by Tetsuya Nomura, he wanted to create a character … using an intricate dress that utilizes several belts in its skirt. — First of all, dropping "he" in favor of "who" should be preferable from a grammatical standpoint. Secondly, the phrase in its current form seems kind of convoluted, so I'd recommend breaking it into two sentences to help the prose flow better. A possible rewrite: Lulu was designed by series artist Tetsuya Nomura, who sought to differentiate her from other Black Mages, offensive spellcasters who appear in the majority of Final Fantasy games. Her outfit's design took advantage of the PlayStation 2's improved graphics: it features an intricate dress with a skirt composed of multiple belts.

• Taking into account the interplay between the lead and the article body, it looks like the behind-the-scenes tidbits (those outlining Lulu's design, her voice acting, etc.) deserve their own paragraph, so it may be worth moving them there and beefing them up with more details. If this is implemented, the first para will also need some additions to offset the loss in information.

• Since her introduction Lulu received mostly positive reception, cited as a frequent subject of cosplay by fans and considered one of the sexiest characters in gaming by media outlets … — This sentence, while comprehensive, is unwieldy in structure. In my assessment, it is necessary to segment the text. The result could be: Lulu has received mostly positive reception since her debut. She has been a popular character with Final Fantasy fans and cosplay enthusiasts in particular, while media outlets have recognized her attractiveness and sex appeal. However, Lulu was also criticized by certain reviewers who associated her design with sadomasochistic imagery and fetish culture.

• ... seen as the most level-headed amongst the cast and called one of the better voiced characters in Final Fantasy X. — To determine what "cast" stands for, try adding a qualifier like "playable". That said, why is "amongst" employed in lieu of "among"? The reason for this is lost on me, I have to admit.

Conception and design

• Nomura, however, wanted to create a character … — The use of "however" seems superfluous, as no contradiction is apparent from the context around the phrase.

• ... with her hair in an upright bun while her clothes consist … — This part is less than easy to follow, so a rewrite might help.

• Nomura went into more depth with his character designs than in previous games … — From my perspective, "Nomura went into more depth" is a tad vague, and I'd suggest rephrasing it along the lines of "Nomura created more detailed character designs". Also, does the "previous games" bit mean all of the games that Nomura worked on, or the Final Fantasy series specifically? If it's the latter, this bears clarifying.

• ... felt he "went kind of crazy" on Lulu's in particular. — Seems like "and" is missing before "felt".

• Belts were frequently used element of Nomura's character designs … — Methinks that this should be reformulated too. Perhaps: Belts were a common feature of Nomura's character designs … and he stated that when outside observers noticed this trend, he was encouraged to give more focus to accessories in his artwork.

• However due to the outfit's complexity … — Seeing as this starts with a preposition, a comma is warranted. More to the point, the wording can use a few tweaks for greater coherence. It might go like this: Because the outfit was difficult to render in cutscenes, the staff compromised by only showing Lulu from the waist up, and they excluded her from animated sequences involving complex motions.

• Nomura mapped out all the available options when designing her concept as a list, however one in particular … — The "designing her concept as a list" bit suffers from vagueness. Does this part imply that Nomura consulted a list of character traits when he developed Lulu's design? My guess is that the intended turn of phrase is "mapped out the options as a list", but this is not readily evident. Lastly, "however" should be preceded by a semicolon and followed by a comma.

• ... with the finalized version having sprite art of its Final Fantasy III namesake displayed on its shield… — There is a spot of ambiguity with the inclusion of "namesake". An overhaul would be welcome as far as clarity is concerned. A suggestion: ... and the resulting design incorporated pixel art of a Final Fantasy III character with the class of the same name.

• Tiso stated that … they would watch the scenes ... — Does this refer to both Paula Tiso and Rio Natsuki? I think it's worth spelling out what this means.

• She found Lulu to be a bit challenging nonetheless … — Removing "a bit" would improve readability here, as would clarifying the "challenging" part: She found performing Lulu a challenging experience ….

• To make it easier … — What does "it" stand for? To ease herself into the role …, maybe?

• Natsuki on the other hand enjoyed … and … preferred to play roles where she let other character's shine … — The contrasting adverb looks slightly out of place, as its point of reference is not identifiable from the context. In addition, the apostrophe after "character" should be left out. Still, even with these tweaks taken into account, I'd recommend a further rewrite. Something to the effect of: For her part, Natsuki liked the subtle presence of Lulu in the game's plot, as she preferred projects which placed more emphasis on roles played by other actors, and felt that her character showed similar deference to her peers..

• Originally upon seeing Lulu's early design … — This needs commas to set off "upon seeing Lulu's design".

• ... and when it came time to voice the scene she enjoyed working with the other voice actors … — The phrasing strikes me as excessively broad and overelaborate. A shorter rendition would help in streamlining the text, e.g.: ... and she was particularly fond of collaborating with her colleagues when voicing the scene.

Appearances

• Taken as a whole, this section is pretty slim on content. Lulu's background, personality and character arc are only sparsely covered, and her part in educating Tidus about life in Spira is not explained at all. From what I remember, Lulu got a decent amount of focus in FFX. Surely there is more to her than just being "Wakka's love interest". The topic of her cameo in the sequel audio drama Final Fantasy X: Will is worth addressing too.

• As introduced in Square Enix's 2001 role playing game Final Fantasy X … Lulu is … an older sister figure to Yuna … — The preposition at the beginning appears to be uncalled for. Also, since Yuna gets her first mention in this sentence, consider describing her role in the storyline here before the next phrase comes into the picture.

• Acting as one of protagonist Yuna's guardians during her pilgrimage, she had previously accompanied two other summoners … though both ended abruptly. — This part seems to be told through an in-universe lens, which makes lore-specific terms difficult to understand for the uninitiated. The meaning of "pilgrimage" and "summoner" in the game should be clarified to solve this issue. Another concern is the word "protagonist" as it feels extraneous and negligible in the larger scheme of things. Finally, "both ended abruptly" is confusing. Does this allude to pilgrimages or to summoners?

• Lulu had been romantically involved with, Chappu, and his death at the hands of the antagonist Sin prior to the game's events affected her greatly. She later falls in love with Wakka. — The comma ahead of "Chappu" looks redundant. On a further note, "his death … affected her greatly" sounds ambiguous and rather uninformative. Coupled with the short claim at the end of the para, this produces an awkward and jarring transition. The prose requires a few touch-ups to get rid of this flaw.

• In the game's sequel, Final Fantasy X-2, she was relegated to a supporting role due to game director Motomu Toriyama feeling … — This reads like it belongs to the development section.

• Portrayed by Nakamura Baishi, her designed … — Firstly, "designed" should be a noun instead of an adjective. Secondly, "portrayed" is somewhat of a dangling modifier as it does not relate to the immediate subject of discussion. I'd suggest moving this to earlier in the article: In theatre, Lulu features in the Final Fantasy X kabuki stage adaptation, portrayed by Nakamura Baishi. As depicted in this production, Lulu sports a new appearance with a distinct Japanese aesthetic: her dress was replaced with a fur-lined kimono to match the theme of the play..

Promotion and reception

• The third para utilizes "noun plus -ing" quite frequently, which is a grammatically dubious technique that is disfavored in Wikipedia's editing circles. This essay lays out several tips for fixing this drawback. Elsewhere, the fourth and fifth paras are rife with repetition when it comes to the term "character". The relevant portions of this section can benefit from being revamped.

• In additional several figures were also produced … as part of a 2001 promotion with soda company Coca-Cola. — I assume that this is supposed to start with "in addition", as opposed to the current iteration. In a similar fashion, it may be a good idea to change "figures" to "figurines", which is more precise. As for the ending clause, what is "a 2001 promotion with Coca Cola"? Did they pair up with Square to do TV ads for the game, as they had done with Final Fantasy IX? If so, the updated statement needs to reflect this.

• ... a PVC statue of Lulu posed with her lower body … — Deciphering "PVC" will leave less people scratching their heads about its meaning. Furthermore, the fragment itself is cumbersome to understand due to the conjunction used as an additive link. This has to undergo a makeover, too.

• Lulu's outfit drew particular focus from media outlets, with Todd Hargosh of Game Industry News calling … — Frankly, the "with plus -ing" construction is a bit of a blemish on the writing. Go for an alternative, as in: Lulu's outfit drew particular focus from media outlets. Todd Hargosh of Game Industry News called it ….

• Daniel Żelazny of PPE praised Lulu as having one of best female character outfits in gaming … and the overt and complex nature of it, calling it one of his better concepts … — A touch overlong. Trimming or splitting are valid solutions to this problem. Relatedly, who are we talking about with regard to "one of his better concepts"? Is it Nomura or someone else?

• Dave Smith of IGN stated that while Nomura had a tendency to "over-accessorize" his character designs, he felt Lulu's design was just right, … one of the "coolest" he had seen … — Aside from two instances of informal language, there is the fact that "character" and "design" are oft-repeated within the sentence. I'd recommend reworking this by condensing and recasting the prose: Dave Smith of IGN opined that Lulu's outfit was a positive outgrowth of Nomura's penchant for overdressed characters, and that her design, with highlights such as "[a] floor-length skirt, elaborately-pinned hair, and [a] collection of super-cute mascot dolls", was one of the "coolest" in the franchise.

• He additionally praise as matching her style, giving her a "beautifully menacing presence". — Not really comprehensible.

• In 2009, GamesRadar+ called her one of the sexiest video game characters … attributing her appeal to her large breasts and outfit, the latter of which they described as a "goth-mage-hooker" aesthetic … — Are "outfit" and "aesthetic" really in the same semantic ballpark? The overlap is not enough to justify using these words interchangeably, I believe. Could be: In 2009, GamesRadar+ ranked Lulu, who they described as a "goth-mage-hooker" figure, as one the sexiest video game characters … attributing her appeal to her curvaceous appearance and a risqué outfit that "looks like it could fall right off at any second".

• Gus Turner of Complex shared these sentiments, but also praised the character's voice … — The presence of "but" is baffling: its associated clause should qualify the previous claim instead of drawing a contrast. This calls for a do-over.

• • On a side note, the above-reviewed sentence and its immediate follow-up contain the similar-sounding expressions "gave further praise of how she was a voice" and "the staff … praised her voice", which, when read in a row, may prove distracting for the average reader.

• Damien Mecheri in the book The Legend of Final Fantasy X stated that a good team in a roleplaying game is incomplete with a character who is "a bit cold, dark, and taciturn" … — A clearer variation of "good team" would be "well-rounded party", in keeping with the terminology of the genre. Incidentally, what is meant by "incomplete with"? Probably should be "incomplete without".

• • This and the following statement both start with the verb "stated". Look for a synonym to solve this redundancy.

• Mecheri stated that while here character was not particularly complex … — Which other incarnation of Lulu is more complex than the original? Asking this because "here" implies a reference to a different work of fiction. Try changing this up to "her" to set the record straight, so to speak.

• ... and how her personality as a mature woman despite her young age … —> ... and how her emotional maturity, coupled with her youth …

• Media outlets offered their own examination of her character, with Paul Shkreli of RPGamer enjoying … — Yet another "with plus -ing" misfortune that ought to be revised.

• Margaret David of Den of Geek praised how Lulu's voice acting helped her character, stating that her "harsh but protective manner" came through … and without it painted her as an unlikable character instead of the "dark horse fave" she became — This is a stilted and long-winded sentence. Breaking this up into two smaller segments would help the message come across better.

• Matt Sainsbury of DigitallyDownloaded.net meanwhile felt the design helped flesh out her role as a character, particularly as a Black Mage. — Setting "meanwhile" off will make this flow more smoothly.

• While Lulu's design initially appeared to fit that mold by invoking imagery of sadomasochism in his view, her characterization was a severe but motherly figure to the group. — The latter half is let down by awkward wording. Plus, "in his view" does not add anything of value, so it could be safely cut out.

• He enjoyed how this subverted expectations … and added that her maternal role made her a particularly nuanced character in them. — Basically, this is a restatement of the previous phrase. I wonder if its inclusion really has any purpose.

References

• Refs 1, 4, 9, 10, 12, 14, 16, 18, 21, 23, 27, 32 and 33 need wikilinks for the publication.

• As for the details:

Ref 3 — The name of the source is missing "The".

Ref 5 — The site's annotation says that this interview is originally from a special issue of the V-Jump magazine. Any chance that the info on the primary source can be cited here, as opposed to the translation website?

Ref 24 — As with 3, "News" should be added after "Game Industry".

Refs 27 — The formatting scheme for does not follow the template of Refs 32 and 34. Consider reworking this to maintain consistency with those sources.

This should do it, I think. Good work on this one, especially with regard to organization and formatting. There is still room for improvement, however. Electroguv (talk) 22:00, 12 April 2024 (UTC)

Got everything before Voice Acting fixed...this is gonna take awhile so bear with me.--Kung Fu Man (talk) 00:28, 13 April 2024 (UTC)

@Electroguv I'm not trying to cause any offense by this, but I do feel some of these suggestions may deviate a bit from what the sources are saying, so I'm hoping trying to find a middle ground is alright. As for appearances section, I need to keep in line with what secondary sources are providing. Going into detail about how she's the easiest for Tidus to get to warm up to him doesn't really give the reader much understanding of her as a character. And while she's in -Will- (which I'll admit prior to this I didn't even know was a thing), even sources discussing her there are very brief regarding her role in it. As I said I mean no offense with these comments, but I felt an aside was necessary before proceeding.--Kung Fu Man (talk) 04:07, 14 April 2024 (UTC)

In any event Appearances has been rewritten, terribly sorry about how messy some of that was I must have lost track of copyediting it. Let me know if any of it is off. And again I apologize if the above comes across badly.--Kung Fu Man (talk) 06:29, 14 April 2024 (UTC)

Alright. I think I got everything. I can't replace the Shmuplations link because I can't find what issue that was in, V-Jump tends to be quite expensive, and most scans from it are only for Dragon Ball or JoJo content. I wikilinked PVC to help also as I feel it's a bit more important to mention the type of figure in that case. As for the rest I've done the best I can by your editorial notes and hope they're sufficient.--Kung Fu Man (talk) 21:54, 14 April 2024 (UTC)

It's no trouble, really. Sometimes the small things matter the most, after all. The above points are simply thought-starters to consider in exploring avenues for revision rather than some kind of a rigid itinerary. That said, I am not calling for running afoul of the sources and playing loose with creative license, so to speak, but I do believe that WP:BOLD encourages some degree of editorial liberty with regard to diversity in coverage. What I meant by alluding to interactions between Lulu and Tidus was that she has a prominent mentorial role, as an authority of sorts on matters of local culture, and that this detail stands out more than her, shall we say, sensuous attempts at being a tease for the protagonist, which obviously go nowhere. Then again, there's another side to her worldliness since she can easily be viewed as a mouthpiece for exposition from that angle, making this aspect something of a curate's egg really. I guess one has a good deal of leeway in how they can approach character description, so it's your call ultimately. The newest batch of tweaks has definitely fixed some particular ticks and bothers noted above, so this is coming along nicely, I'd say. I hear you on having difficulty with tracking down the genuine article for the V-Jump source – the current solution will do just fine, I imagine. As for the rest, props for refining the prose across the board, yet I admit that I've allowed myself to indulge into a couple of proprietary edits to tighten up a few spots. I am in the progress of finishing my follow-up to make sure there are no glaring concerns. I'll try to complete the look-through quickly. Electroguv (talk) 23:09, 15 April 2024 (UTC)

Okay, the material has been drastically improved by the recent revisions. Having taken the opportunity to apply a couple more touch-ups, I am content to say that this article meets the applicable quality standards. Some phrasing intricacies I'm inclined to perceive as the author's choice, which is fine by me as long as the information is relevant and well-represented. I believe that the major considerations and reservations specified in the review have been settled. As it stands, the article is well-organized, thematically accurate and engagingly written. This merits a Pass. Congrats, and thanks for your work! Electroguv (talk) 19:29, 21 April 2024 (UTC)