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Requested move 11 April 2024

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The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: moved. Per consensus, with rationale provided by Malerisch articulating the basis for the moves. – robertsky (talk) 16:07, 18 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

– Comparing the pageview statistics, the girl group is clearly the WP:PRIMARYTOPIC. Wpstatus (talk) 06:20, 11 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  • Comment, I used to have a disambiguation page that had only two subjects and it was deleted after some nomination based on the supposed criteria that I cannot have only two subjects in a disambiguation and apparently, more than two is suitable. So your stance here might not work out in the sense that we have only two different illit articles, one company (defunct and understandably non-notable) and one girl group from Korea. NelsonLee20042020 (talk) 00:56, 17 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Comment I don't think there's anything wrong with a disambiguation page with only 2 subjects (if there is no primary topic), considering that the example given at WP:NOPRIMARY is the page John Quested, which has exactly 2 subjects. However, that would be irrelevant here if we decide that the girl group is the primary topic. Wpstatus (talk) 03:36, 17 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment I agree with you on this, and considering the majority opinion at the present, your reasons are more detailed and persuasive, on top of the reasons for the proposed move. NelsonLee20042020 (talk) 13:00, 16 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment To add, most people will not only be actively looking for the group's article (instead of the company's) at the present time, but also for the long future while Illit still meaningfully exists as a group. The same can't be said for the defunct company. 「HypeBoy」TALK 21:42, 16 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

no mention of Kpop on lead

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Centralized discussion to Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Korea#"K-pop girl group" in the lead

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

User @Paper9oll removed the addition of K-pop on the lead. This especially surprised me since it was the only reference of K-pop in the lead. For me the edit is clearly sourced and so relevant that excluding it from the lead seems odd. I would like to know what is the general consensus about this issue. Cinemaandpolitics (talk) 15:18, 6 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

controversy about copycat accusations

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The huge controversy about copycat accusations should be on the page and, since it is a prominent controversy, on lead as well.

I know that adding this would trigger an edit war so I am being considerate and refraining from doing this immediatelly. Let's see if we can draft it here first in a way that will not hurt anybody. Cinemaandpolitics (talk) 19:19, 20 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Hello,
I noticed that you intend to add information about Illit being accused of being a copycat. While I understand that discussions like this might generate interest, I believe this content should not be included for the following reasons:
Unproven Accusations: The allegations of Illit being a copycat have not been proven, and there has been no conclusion from the trial as of yet. Wikipedia’s guidelines emphasize the importance of verifiable, neutral, and reliable information. Including accusations that have not been substantiated would violate Wikipedia's policy on neutral point of view and verifiability.
Potential Defamation: The group has already been involved in defamation claims related to these accusations, which underscores the sensitive nature of the issue. Adding unproven claims can potentially mislead readers and contribute to spreading misinformation, which conflicts with Wikipedia's commitment to providing reliable, accurate information.
Undue Weight: Wikipedia guidelines also caution against giving undue weight to controversial or unproven claims, especially when there are more significant, documented achievements for Illit that should take precedence. Including this information would skew the balance of the article, focusing on speculation rather than proven facts. 시월의여우비 (talk) 10:35, 4 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Hello,
You are wrong in strictly all points.
1) Unproven accusation CAN be added to Wikipedia. Even for ongoing cases. As long as reliable sources are reporting on them, an accusation is still something that happened. You can find an ongoing summarization of conflict in basically any single page that had a controversy.
2) Sources CAN have a point of view. Wikipedia has to be WRITTEN without a point of view on its tone, which is different. You can read more about it here: WP:BIASED "Wikipedia articles are required to present a neutral point of view. However, reliable sources are not required to be neutral, unbiased, or objective."
3) Sensitive issues CAN be added to Wikipedia. Remember that Wikipedia is WP:NOTCENSORED.
"Wikipedia may contain content that some readers consider objectionable or offensive‍—‌even exceedingly so. Attempting to ensure that articles and images will be acceptable to all readers, or will adhere to general social or religious norms, is incompatible with the purposes of an encyclopedia."
4) Appropriate weight HAS TO BE GIVEN to all parties involved in a controversy. Which DOES NOT mean to not give any weight to everybody, which is censorship. This is what WP:WEIGHT states:
"Neutrality requires that mainspace articles and pages fairly represent all significant viewpoints that have been published by reliable sources, in proportion to the prominence of each viewpoint in those sources."
In April 2024, Illit was publicly accused of plagiarism by New Jeans' executive producer Min Hee-Jin. Illit management refuted the allegations and filed a complaint for defamation.
It is just that simple. Cinemaandpolitics (talk) 17:36, 16 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I am tagging editors that could be interested in the addition before adding it in a new section "Controversy", I would personally avoid to add it on lead for the sake of peace.
@Btspurplegalaxy @Vacosea @HypeBoy @Symphidius @Paper9oll @Haukurth Cinemaandpolitics (talk) 14:17, 18 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Replying directly to your initial comment and your pinging comment, I believed that you're referring to the various news reports on Illit copying NewJeans? I generally don't have any objections as long as the content is given balanced WP:WEIGHT however that doesn't means WP:COATRACKing the content with every single details. And no, this shouldn't be confused as attempting to apply censorship because not every single details are included, in fact, a few of the pinged editors here already agreed on such stance, i.e. COATRACKing, at Talk:NewJeans#removal of informations from body which is also pertaining to the entire "MHJ vs Hybe" dispute. — Paper9oll (🔔 • 📝) 15:48, 18 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The green text is my proposition for this page. It is hardly full of details. Cinemaandpolitics (talk) 22:18, 18 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oh okay ... then it's okay. — Paper9oll (🔔 • 📝) 08:06, 19 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I'll add this and let others add more if they believe there is something that deserves the space. Cinemaandpolitics (talk) 08:32, 19 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Deleting the records set by ILLIT

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Hi. I'm a Korean who has been interested in the history. And I noticed the users, including @Paper9oll deleted the writing regarding to the records set by Illit. The writing was including the rare recordings Illit set which shows the impact of Illit in kpop history, and it was including the credible source which is the address of official Korean news regarding to kpop. Thus, I hope we can keep the content in ILLIT's wikipidea for following reasons. 1. Verifiability: The facts are backed by credible sources, including Billboard, the Japan Record Association, and major news outlets. Wikipedia requires verifiable and reliable references, and you’ve provided solid sources for each claim. 2. Notability: Illit has achieved significant milestones that indicate their importance in the music industry, such as setting records on major charts (Billboard, Spotify, Apple Music). These accomplishments help establish notability, a key criterion for inclusion in Wikipedia. 3. Historical Context: By being the first girl group to reach certain achievements (e.g., debuting on the Billboard Hot 100 and Global 200 simultaneously, achieving a record for highest first-week album sales), Illit is making history in K-pop. This context adds value to Wikipedia's mission of documenting cultural moments. 4. Broader Relevance: Their global impact, such as dominating charts in multiple countries and platforms (Korea, Japan, the U.S.), and their success across various media formats (streaming, music shows, short-form videos), makes the group relevant to a wide audience beyond K-pop fans. This adds international relevance to Wikipedia’s content. 시월의여우비 (talk) 09:25, 6 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Your writing is far from being neutral, it isn't just me having problems with your writing as @Btspurplegalaxy and @Nkon21 also similarly reverted your edits on the same grounds. I also don't see how your writing aligns with the standards expected on English Wikipedia, would suggest that you go read up on English Wikipedia's policies and guidelines. — Paper9oll (🔔 • 📝) 11:04, 6 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I’d like to address your concerns and clarify how my edits align with the guidelines:
1. Neutral Tone: My intention is to present verifiable facts rather than opinions. All the information I added is backed by reliable sources, including Billboard, the Japan Record Association, and major news outlets like Chosun and Newsis.("On April 21, 2024, the debut song "Magnetic" became the fastest girl group debut song to surpass 100 " ,for instance. )These achievements are objectively significant in the music industry. If any specific phrasing seems non-neutral, I'm happy to review and adjust it to ensure neutrality.
2. Verifiability and Notability: Wikipedia requires that content be verifiable and notable. Illit's achievements, such as being the first girl group to debut on the Billboard Hot 100 and Global 200 simultaneously, are historical and well-documented. I provided citations to ensure the information meets the verifiability standard, and the group's success is notable within the K-pop industry and beyond.
3. Reverting Edits: Initially, I mentioned the records taking the reference of Blackpink's wikipedia content. But as @Btspurplegalaxy and @Nkon21 reverted the edits, mentioning it isn't objective enough. So, even when I believed this was due to a misunderstanding of the tone rather than the factual accuracy of the content, I rephrased my writing, deleting every adjectives and just mentioning the facts which is made up of just Five Ws and One H. However, @paper9oll, you just deleted the new writing.
4. Alignment with Wikipedia Policies: I have carefully considered Wikipedia's guidelines, including those on neutral point of view, verifiability, and notability. I also referred to Wikipedia's policy on writing about living persons, ensuring that the content is factual and well-supported. If there are specific areas where you believe the writing does not align with these policies, I’d appreciate more detailed feedback so I can address them directly. (-시월의여우비 (talk) 07:45, 8 October 2024 (UTC))[reply]
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