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@HypeBoy has removed my edit that added information about Min dismissal as CEO and the word "support" from NewJeans members. Their reasoning:
No need for details on Min since the subject of this article is NewJeans. Further details can be found by visiting MHJ's article or clicking the references.
Obviously the dismissal of the CEO of NewJeans is a crucial information to have in the NewJeans page, as both primary and secondary sources are noting. The removal of informations also made the reading exceptionally obscure. I have reinstated the edit and I am going to develop it further with more sourced analysis. Cinemaandpolitics (talk) 10:42, 28 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I completely agree with this, there's no need for information about everything each member said in the live stream as it has nothing to do with NewJeans' notability. Frankly Cinemaandpolitics has a tendency to put excessive details that downgrade an article instead of improve it, even when other editors disagree. — hhypeboyh💬 • ✏️00:29, 29 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I dunno I think it's relevant information. And most importantly it's all sourced. Cinemaandpolitics has consistently used to talk page to explain their rationale and always tries to meet you halfway, even if they don't necessarily have to. Maybe talk it out instead of character assassination? Symphidius (talk) 01:08, 29 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
This is off topic, but for a third party, you seem to be awfully informed about my communication history with Cinemaandpolitics. I can see why some editors are suspicious of your legitimacy. — hhypeboyh💬 • ✏️01:26, 29 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Ad hominem out of nowhere. Too bad, you don't own this article. By the way, I think you got hung up on the "you." I meant that as plural not singular. I really don't care about what happens outside of the NewJeans page and I definitely don't care enough to go through your contrib page. Symphidius (talk) 01:36, 29 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@HypeBoy Removing sourced informations that sources are describing as extremelly relevant themselves is the issue. You have a tendency in removing anything that is conflictual to make Kpop pages spotless, as if "notability" would mean that. But this is not how Wikipedia works.
@Btspurplegalaxy You are talking about "summarizing", what you are not realizing is that I've done a great deal of that myself, taking from sources and summarizing even further. Five distinct people talked about a complex set of issues for half an hour, I gave each one of them a single phrase. The section is already pretty concise, I am curious to know what you would summarize more.
@98Tigerius The WP:INDISCRIMINATE section you are linking is talking about: summaries of creative works, databases, statistics, lyrics. Nothing related to this matter to the slightest.
WP:WEIGHT means that you think Hybe positions should be developed more? According to what I read Hybe didn't go into details responding to NewJeans, I added at the end of the paragraph the latest development I could find with their own wording. So, as far as I know, my edits are weighted correctly. Cinemaandpolitics (talk) 12:19, 29 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
It’s my personal opinion, but I believe that, from the viewpoint of a casual K-pop wiki editor, there are valid arguments here from each viewpoint, and I thought that the correlation between Newjeans and the Min Hee Jin incident are at best, should be summarized and objectivity is needed for both positions.
I agreed that Hybe position should be given equal emphasis, if possible. The issue, regarding this, arise from the fact that Hybe didn't go into much details publicly responding to NewJeans, there was something about the removal of the videos being asked by advertisers, but even that wasn't developed much and I didn't had a full source on it. They have chosen to only fully answer the reinstatement of Min as CEO, and on that I developed it as much as I could. Cinemaandpolitics (talk) 15:27, 29 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Here’s the plan: moving forward, please communicate with me and your fellow editors before making any additions or removals. I’ve noticed you've been making significant changes lately. To keep things simple for everyone, let’s hold off on further changes until we reach an agreement. Btspurplegalaxy💬🖊️20:20, 29 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion part, I agree with this considering the sensitivity of the situation and the public opinion weighed against both Hybe and Min Hee Jin, plus Newjeans. There could be editors or readers out there who might pick sides and the writing that favour either side potentially offends the other, plus the reliability of the sources selected had to be probed too.
To sidestep a bit, some of the newspapers (the gossip type actually) are criticising Hyeb and support Min but most fan communities out there (not including Twitter) are having an unfavourable opinion towards Min. I prefer to not follow up the turn of events regularly as it is too ugly to do so, especially since hate is directed to the idols, including the ones I stan. NelsonLee20042020 (talk) 01:48, 30 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Btspurplegalaxy You do realize that I am the only one trying to discuss any edit in the talk page, right? You never answered my argument that one phrase for each member is already very much summarized and went ahead to roll back everything. Also @HypeBoy straight up removed "expressed support for Min", added again by @Vacosea after you removed it. According to them, NewJeans members didn't use word of support. Problem is secondary sources, let alone primary, says otherwise: "The group alleged harm done inside and outside the company, professed anxiety about their future and voiced support for the embattled K-pop executive who formed them." from Billboard.
Since neither you or Hypeboy never cared enough to discuss any changes, I'll go ahead and restore the fully sourced and summarized edits and expand to them.
Just to make yet again clear what we are talking about, in case you want to discuss it:
1) Min dismissal as CEO of ADOR is necessary to understand the whole paragraph, it's a one phrase information that is relevant to the page since NewJeans was formed by ADOR, first phrase of the lead, relevance also explained by the members themselves.
2) NewJeans members expressed support for Min, as clearly summarized by Billboard.
3) One phrase for each member is not WP:TOOMUCH, they are fully summarized accusations of five people. Removing them is straight up censorship.
4) The analysis of Jon Caramanica gives cultural context, hard to justify the removal of one of the main critics from TNYT.
The way I see it is your way too deeply invested with the situation with Hybe. A lot of the details you have aren't needed. Me and other editors agree it's overly detailed. I mention not to add anything else and the first thing you do is add the material back. It's not hard to summarize the important parts, it seems you want to keep a lot of that information there. Btspurplegalaxy💬🖊️22:18, 3 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Can you say which parts to summarize and how you would summarize them? Instead of just clicking on the revert button, linking to random WP:pages or resorting to personal attacks?
This is how I would do it and it covers the important parts:
1. Labor Dispute Begins: In April 2024, a labor dispute between Hybe Corporation and NewJeans' executive producer Min Hee-jin broke out.
2. NewJeans Members Support Min: The group publicly expressed their support for Min Hee-jin throughout the dispute.
3. Min Hee-jin Dismissed: On August 27, 2024, Min was dismissed as the CEO of ADOR by its board members.
4. NewJeans Livestream: On September 11, 2024, NewJeans members held a YouTube livestream, reiterating support for Min and detailing their concerns with Hybe's management.
5. Ultimatum to Hybe Chairman: Minji gave Hybe chairman Bang Si-Hyuk an ultimatum to reinstate Min as CEO by September 25.
6. Hybe's Response: On September 25, Hybe rejected the request to reinstate Min, citing its principle of separating management from production, but affirmed Min’s continued role as producer. Btspurplegalaxy💬🖊️22:51, 3 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Perfect, thanks for answering on the summarization efforts. So we actually don't disagree on many point. You would remove the specific grievances and leave the rest similar to what it currently is. I will proceede to edit in your suggested shortening on those parts.
Regarding the livestream content. How do you feel about this shortening that I have proposed further down, that at least make reference to their complaints?
They went on to further detail alleged issues with Hybe's management, ranging from work place harassement, inaction, private leaks, deletion of previously released content, among others.Cinemaandpolitics (talk) 23:00, 3 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
HYBE lost the injunction. None of their allegations were proven. What position do they have other than Min Hee-jin bad and NewJeans are being gaslighted? Symphidius (talk) 19:04, 29 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Let me sidestep a bit. You have the right to say that everybody is innocent until proven guilty and I strictly abide to this principle personally, and while the allegations may not be proven in the May 2024 lawsuit, there are others that remain yet to be resolved, including the ones that arose after the lawsuit, like the allegations of covering up the sexual harassment complaints of a former employee. Emotions can be quite powerful and get the better of us, but neutrality is definitely called for, even though I like all the Hybe girl groups altogether. NelsonLee20042020 (talk) 01:39, 30 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@NelsonLee20042020 The problem is that even if me or you think that Min is evil, and the members are wrong for supporting her, that doesn't make it less wrong to remove their very much summarized words of support.
An encyclopedia page cannot become purely a promotional tool. There is a conflict among parties? Then it should be present. The "summarization" that the other two editors propose consist in removing the word "support" and the most basic statements from the members themselves.
Thank you for coming to the discussion. What parts would you summarize further and how?
I feel like what is taking space is the fact that there are five different people talking, each expressing their grievances. Hanni, Haerin and Minji give out concrete exemples that I would not remove. Danielle and Hyein give more human statements that made headlines, they could be condensed by removing precise quotes but I am not sure how.
The one sentence with Caramanica on the NYT analysis feels extremelly relevant, as always with his articles, a precise and concise depiction of the cultural context. How do you feel about it?
The rest seems to me like basic timeline of events and difficult to summarize further, the end especially gives weight to Hybe position and also elaborates on the difficulties regarding the upcoming album. Cinemaandpolitics (talk) 21:00, 3 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
also thank you for adding that source that gives a full reading for those not familiar with all the conflict that played out before NewJeans members live. Cinemaandpolitics (talk) 21:04, 3 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The part that in my opinion could be summarized is this one:
Hanni alleged that the manager of an unnamed Hybe group told their members to "ignore her" when they crossed paths. Haerin raised concerns about their medical records and trainee videos leaking on the internet, accusing Hybe of allegedly taking no action. Minji expressed fear of seeing their work compromised, following the removal of content that they had previously filmed with director Shin Woo-seok. Danielle referred to Min as "irreplaceable" stating that the alleged harassement of Min "makes Hybe look like an inhumane company". Hyein claimed that they had heard of Min dismissal through the news, stating that the new management “made it clear to us that they don’t respect us at all”.
They went on to further detail alleged issues with Hybe's management, ranging from harassement, inaction, private leaks, deletion of previously released content, among others.
