Talk:Gukesh Dommaraju

2nd- youngest GM or 3rd-youngest?

This article says both that Gukesh is the third-youngest GM of all time, and the second-youngest. Which is it? Chillowack (talk) 01:23, 15 December 2022 (UTC)

(2nd) Youngest player to beat Magnus Carlsen

Pranav Venkatesh (16 years, 138 days old) beat Magnus in blitz during yesterday’s Titled Tuesday, beating Gujesh’s record by two days. 2600:1000:B103:1F56:DD88:D3AA:B16F:8F64 (talk) 02:12, 2 March 2023 (UTC)

2020 and 2021

The article says: "He is India's youngest (GM) as of 2022." However he became 2nd youngest GM in history already in 2019, with Karjakin being the youngest. So how about 2020 and 2021??? Bob.v.R (talk) 13:49, 31 March 2023 (UTC)

Age records

Gukesh was the 2nd youngest GM ever back in 2019, now he's 3rd (after Karjakin & the newest record holder Abhimanyu Mishra (see R_Praggnanandhaa#Chess_career). Also facts are that Gukesh is the 3rd youngest player in history to both qualify to & play in a candidates tournament (Fischer youngest to play in one, Carlsen the youngest to qualify. Just don't know any handy sources to state these.

I don't know who's the youngest Indian GM at the moment. But I don't know if that kind of information is important. --J. Sketter (talk) 18:38, 15 April 2024 (UTC)

3rd youngest Candidate

Fischer and Carlsen both qualified for the Candidates at a younger age, and played at a younger age. A number of press sources are saying Gukesh is the second youngest - ignoring Carlsen - but they are wrong. It can easily be verified than Carlsen was 16 during the World_Chess_Championship_2007#2007_Candidates_tournament. Adpete (talk) 02:30, 16 April 2024 (UTC)

• 1959 Candidates, began in September 1959; Bobby Fischer (b. 9 March 1943) was about 16 years, 6 months.
• 2007 Candidates, began on 26 May 2007; Magnus Carlsen (b. 30 Nov 1990) was just under 16 years, 6 months.

Adpete (talk) 08:20, 16 April 2024 (UTC)

Incorrect rating

According to FIDE, Gukesh's rating is 2763. However, it's being automatically populated as 2764, the third off-by-one I'm seeing today. Greenman (talk) 10:50, 3 May 2024 (UTC)

Gukesh's Origins

An unsourced edit by User Voglam (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Voglam) dating back to Dec 2023 states that Gukesh is of Telugu origin. Subsequently, after Gukesh started to gain attention in recent months, Indian websites have used information from the wiki page for articles, and those articles have been retroactively added as sources by the same user.

A few issues: These websites are not reliable primary sources, and some of them have copied the wiki word for word. Where is the primary source for this claim? Padfather (talk) 14:20, 6 October 2024 (UTC)

See this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yEtjxbt4fZ8 Chess Grand Master Gukesh Dommaraju Visited Tirumala Srivari Temple || Samayam Telugu. Every one gains something subsequently only. Voglam (talk) 14:28, 6 October 2024 (UTC)

Despite speaking in Telugu, he does not state that he is Telugu in this video, not to mention it is recent. Indian's often have a grasp of multiple languages.

Where is the source for your initial edit dating back to December last year? Padfather (talk) 14:39, 6 October 2024 (UTC)

Did he deny that he is not Telugu. Dommaraju is a Telugu surname from the Godavari districts. Every article has to begin somewhere. If you have a personal problem, add a comment asking for further references, don't blatantly override articles with your SockPuppet account. You seem to be a SockPuppet. Your account was created only this month. Other Wiki Admins please intervene and handle this sockpuppet. Voglam (talk) 14:51, 6 October 2024 (UTC)

Referring you back to the guidelines for BLP articles: Contentious material about living persons that is unsourced or poorly sourced must be removed immediately from the article and its talk page. Padfather (talk) 14:54, 6 October 2024 (UTC)

Many articles online mention that he is Telugu. What you said holds for you also. Telugu news articles have long published his Telugu heritage since before Dec 2023 also. Voglam (talk) 14:57, 6 October 2024 (UTC)

You did not provide these proofs you are referring to as citations within the article. Again, please refer back to the guidelines on what constitutes a reliable source. You can call me a sockpuppet if you think that helps your case, but admins will be able to verify that this is not true. Padfather (talk) 15:50, 6 October 2024 (UTC)

You have used the Hindustan Times reference for sourcing Chennai but you seem to have a problem with him being Telugu which the same article that you refer also mentions. Voglam (talk) 16:32, 6 October 2024 (UTC)

You attribute that sourcing to me, which is clearly false, that is besides the fact that his birthplace is clearly verifiable, and if noticed, a valid source can be added. The "Origin of his family in the Godavari District" is neither verified, nor relevant to the topic.

Editing pages is an incremental process, and we must make sure all sources must be reliable. The article whose text has been copied verbatim from your own wiki edits, is not a reliable source. Resorting to whataboutism is not a valid argument,

I see that you have reverted the page anyway, despite receiving a warning from an admin. Unfortunately, this conversation does not seem to be very productive. Padfather (talk) 18:31, 6 October 2024 (UTC)

Deletion of old material without counter reference denying that he is Telugu is not justified. That edit you are mentioning has been done very long before he gained attention that is worrisome to User Padfather. Dommarajus are Telugu families Sir. Voglam (talk) 14:36, 6 October 2024 (UTC)

WP:BURDEN - The burden to demonstrate verifiability lies with the editor who adds or restores material, and it is satisfied by providing an inline citation to a reliable source that directly supports the contribution.

No sources you have provided have him or his family stating their origins. Padfather (talk) 14:53, 6 October 2024 (UTC)

Did not they mention he is Telugu. You seem to have a problem. Why are you sockpuppeting? Voglam (talk) 14:59, 6 October 2024 (UTC)

Voglam, why didn't you add the source for this claim that you made on 16 December 2023? Jeraxmoira🐉 (talk) 18:52, 6 October 2024 (UTC)

You are removing old material and the well known sourced fact that he is Telugu. I have not removed any sourced material. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Voglam (talk • contribs) 15:04, 6 Oct 2024 (UTC)

Various reliable sources mention that Gukesh is of Telugu origin. I don't see any issue why that shouldn't be mentioned. Dommaraju is, as evident, a Telugu surname. L5boat (talk) 07:43, 7 October 2024 (UTC)

L5boat, do you have an indepedent reliable source that was published before 16 December 2023? Jeraxmoira🐉 (talk) 07:47, 7 October 2024 (UTC)

Why should the date matter? At the time, he wasn't as famous as he is now. So, there would naturally be far fewer articles on him then compared to now. L5boat (talk) 07:52, 7 October 2024 (UTC)

On 16 December 2023, User:Voglam added a claim "to a Telugu family fhailing from Godavari delta of Andhra Pradesh" without a source. The content was then republished by news media outlets without proper due diligence, which, on Wikipedia, is referred as WP:CIRCULAR / WP:CITOGEN.

The policy states that Do not use articles from Wikipedia (whether English Wikipedia or Wikipedias in other languages) as sources, since Wikipedia is a user-generated source.

In this case, the Hindustan Times article copied the Wikipedia article verbatim: The teen sensation was born on May 29 2006 in Chennai, Tamil Nadu. He is from a Telugu-speaking family, who hail from the Godavari delta region of Andhra Pradesh. Dr Rajnikanth, his father, is an ear, nose and throat surgeon. Meanwhile his mother, Padma, is a microbiologist. He is currently studying at the Velammal Vidyalaya School in Chennai and began to play chess reportedly when he was seven-years-old. The giveaway among other phrases, is the phrase "ear, nose, and throat surgeon" which could have easily been written as ENT. To add, the mother's name, Padma should have been Padmakumari, as is available in other older sources.

Unless you have a indepedent reliable source that was published before 16 December 2023, the early life section should remain as it was before that date. Jeraxmoira🐉 (talk) 08:08, 7 October 2024 (UTC)

I'm not so sure this is obviously citogenesis/circular. Also, Gukesh speaks Telugu and has a Telugu name, so it would be very surprising if the claim wasn't true.

I googled and found an article published in July 20, 2021 by Global Indian, which does verify the claim: Born in 2006 in Chennai to a Telugu-speaking family, his father Rajnikanth is an ENT surgeon and mother Padma a microbiologist. I have no idea what Global Indian is or if it is reliable. The text in the article is identical to the Wayback Machine in 2022 so the text of the article hasn't been edited after the fact. Endwise (talk) 12:37, 9 October 2024 (UTC)

The wiki article on Gukesh Dommaraju already had the exact information as of 30 June 2021. The inline citation provided only links to a table. Global Indian article has copied content from Wikipedia. Jeraxmoira🐉 (talk) 17:09, 9 October 2024 (UTC)

There are various independent sources (Source 1, Source 2, Source 3) that mention he was born into a Telugu family settled in Chennai. Source 3 goes into details of their family background and features interviews from both his parents. The article clearly mentions that Gukesh's family are Telugus settled in Chennai. The above sources do not specify anything about his origin in Andhra or Godavari districts, but only note that he was born into a Telugu family settled in Chennai. This suggests that these sources have not directly copied information from Wikipedia.

Gukesh speaks Telugu, has a Telugu surname, and multiple reliable sources confirm that he is from a Telugu family settled in Chennai (independent of Wikipedia content). Based on the available information, the article should state that he was born into a Telugu family settled in Chennai, without referencing his place of origin, as that part seems to be contested. L5boat (talk) 08:00, 10 October 2024 (UTC)

The statement "Gukesh speaks Telugu, has a Telugu surname, and multiple reliable sources confirm that he is from a Telugu family settled in Chennai" is actually original research. No reliable source states that they are a Telugu family prior to the unsourced addition to the Wikipedia entry. Several news sources have incorrectly reported the subject's mother’s name, likely originating from misinformation on Wikipedia. Any article mentioning the mother’s name as 'Padma' seems to have copied this directly from Wikipedia. But, if you check the Rediff article, published around the same time as the other sources, correctly identifies his mother’s name and provides accurate information about Gukesh's background but makes no mention of Telugu or Andhra.

Note that I am not claiming your assertion is false, rather there are no reliable sources predating the misinformation to support it. Jeraxmoira🐉 (talk) 11:33, 13 October 2024 (UTC)

Not everyone copies from Wikipedia, right? There are sources that don't rely on Wikipedia information but still state that he is of Telugu origin from an Andhra-settled family. How can you claim that these are also copied from Wikipedia? I mentioned the Sakshi article, which featured interviews with both his father and mother. Even that article clearly mention that they are a Telugu family settled in Chennai. Now, since they directly interviewed the parents, they could have obtained this information directly from them or their relatives, so it couldn't have been copied from Wikipedia.

You are asserting without evidence that every single one of them, 100%, copied the information from Wikipedia. This is a far-fetched claim without proof. As I have mentioned, at least some sources do mention his Telugu origins without any reference to Wikipedia information.

So, there are reliable sources that state Gukesh was born into a Telugu family settled in Chennai, without copying from Wikipedia. This should be mentioned in the article. L5boat (talk) 11:55, 13 October 2024 (UTC)

I have taken a read through of the Sakshi article you a referring to, which was published this year. Firstly, let us note the the pending concern - Where is the source for the edit made to Wikipedia in December 2023?

The article itself:

1. Presents Gukesh's mothers name as Padma, which is incorrect, and immediately puts into question the legitimacy of their research.

2. Says that his father is Telugu, and then expands on their professions. This is the same order in which the Wikipedia page was presented.

3. Makes no claims to the origins of their family. There is no mention of his mother's language or origins, or in what year the family supposedly settled in Chennai.

Unless he or his parents are directly quoted as stating their origins by a reliable source, be it in an existing or future article, the wiki page should remain as it is, without the unsourced edits. Padfather (talk) 12:23, 13 October 2024 (UTC)

Why should mother's origins be mentioned? When "family" is stated, it generally implies both parents unless specified otherwise. L5boat (talk) 12:45, 13 October 2024 (UTC)

Thetazero, read the above. There is enough evidence for circular reporting. Jeraxmoira🐉 (talk) 19:36, 3 November 2024 (UTC)

Where, exactly? I do not see any counter to the arguments by L5boat.

Why would any media outlet that directly interviewed him or his parents need to rely on wikipedia?

Also, multiple media outlets provided that info. Even if in any of them the wordings are similar to wikipedia, it doesn't automatically mean reliance on wikipedia.

As for Padmakumari being shortened to Padma, it is very common practice to shorten Names n worldwide media - like William to Bill or Elizabeth to Liz. Does it make the media source itself unreliable? Thetazero (talk) 19:49, 3 November 2024 (UTC)

Here is another suggestion. Instead of dismissing the information completely, which I think would be unfair, why not add a tag like "better source needed" template or something like that? Thetazero (talk) 20:15, 3 November 2024 (UTC)

Indian news media is known to circulate reports and often copy-paste content without due diligence. That being said, the news media, in their latest articles, only added what was on Wikipedia, which was an unsourced claim made by Voglam on 16 December 2023.

Voglam’s response above clearly indicates that this is original research, as they did not respond when asked why they added an unsourced claim.

Regarding the name, it is not a common practice to shorten names in worldwide media. If you are unfamiliar with how journalism works, please avoid making statements like this. Articles typically mention the full name initially and then begin using the shortened name or surname.

• Also, multiple media outlets provided that info. Even if in any of them the wordings are similar to wikipedia, it doesn't automatically mean reliance on wikipedia. — It simply means they have paraphrased it from Wikipedia, which is why it reads the same and follows the same order. Please read WP:CIRCUALAR
• Why would any media outlet that directly interviewed him or his parents need to rely on wikipedia? — If they had actually done their due diligence, the name would have read Padmakumari instead of Padma, as seen in the Rediff article.

If you want to add information about his origins, please share a reliable source predating this misinformation to support it, i.e., a source published before 16 December 2023. Jeraxmoira🐉 (talk) 20:23, 3 November 2024 (UTC)

1>Are you suggesting that all of Indian media is forever unreliable and only western sources are reliable?

"Indian media is known to ..." is more of a stereotyping statement rather than having any actual evidence for misinformation. I don't think wikipedia has any official policy to disregard everything coming from Indian media as unreliable.

2> How many people know about William Henry Gates and how many know of Bill Gates? The use of Bill Gates is much more common, even in mainstream media. And if some media outlet mentioned him as Bill instead of William, does that automatically discredit the outlet? Also, what makes Rediff more reliable than Sakshi?

3> Obviously, not all sources copied wikipedia "word for word". In fact, a non-English source cannot copy an English text word for word. Even in English, not all sources did that. And even a word for word copy of a single sentence can theoretically be a coincidence as they are trying to convey the same information.

4> Also, Volgam's point that Gukesh being not famous until recent years and hence there wouldn't be too much public info about him earlier is also a valid one. So to ask for sources before a certain point in time, unreasonably assuming that everything since then has been (and will be) copied from wikipedia, will automatically likely rule out most valid sources. So that's an unfair demand in my opinion.

Finally, I only wanted to make a point. I don't want to be in a perpetual edit war. So most likely, I will not edit this page any time soon. But please consider at least keeping the info with the template. For now, at least, the information seems fairly credible. Thetazero (talk) 21:54, 3 November 2024 (UTC)

Where did I say that Indian media is forever unreliable? How is it a stereotyping statement when I can prove it? Are you aware of WP:NEWSORGINDIA?

The Rediff article has new information about his personal life, while the other sources are simply repeating what’s already on Wikipedia, line by line.

Once again, please don’t make statements like "In fact, a non-English source cannot copy an English text word for word." - There are many instances of this happening and here is an example of the reverse happening on Draft:Coat of arms of Chihuahua, which got revdel'ed.

Please show some competency here. Just because Gukesh wasn’t popular before a certain point in time does NOT allow editors to add unsourced claims and have them republished in subsequent news articles. Although you have already violated 3RR by reverting, I am asking you to self-revert your last edit to the article until we reach a consensus here. Jeraxmoira🐉 (talk) 04:55, 4 November 2024 (UTC)

While the Hindustan Times(questionable) article possibly might have indeed copied some parts of the wikipedia article(though not a certainty), because the word sequences are strikingly similar for a few consecutive sentences, but that article does not give any original info - like an interview or such. However, there are sources that do provide original information(like an interview) and still maintain that Gukesh comes from a Telugu family. Why should such information be disregarded when there is no evidence that they relied on wikipedia? Some of these sources were provided by L5boat.

By the way, in this article from 2019 Times of India(2019) Gukesh mentions his mother's name to be Padma (not Padmakumari).

The point I am trying to make is that just because one single HT article possibly copied from wikipedia, it does not in anyway prove that all other articles also copied that information since that point of time. Hence, the deletion of such information is not justified.

I have made my point, and might not be able to reply for some time. So I hope we reached consensus. Thetazero (talk) 15:11, 4 November 2024 (UTC)