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Archive 1Archive 2Archive 3Archive 4Archive 5

"National churches"

The text now states: "The main Lutheran and Orthodox churches are constitutional national churches of Finland with special roles such as in state ceremonies and schools.[108]" This is certainly not the case, these churches used to have a special position, but their present status only depends on their history and, for the Lutheran Church, on its vast membership. The only reference to any religious organization in the Constitution (Section 76) relates to the Lutheran Church and simply concerns the legal procedure needed for the enactement of the Church Act. There is nothing about "national churches" or any other special status. The only legal "specialness" of the Lutheran and Orthodox churches consists in the fact that there is an act of parliament with provisions on the organisation and administration of these historically important churches. Could somebody reformulate the paragraph? --Surfo (talk) 18:28, 11 January 2011 (UTC)

The "constitutional" may be wrong, but I would not dispute that they have a special position (which of course is due to history). Having the right to veto legislation is certainly special, even if only one law is concerned. Being responsible for vital records and having right of taxation is also special. Even the role in official ceremonies shows they are not just religious associations among others. Most of this specialness is probably founded on law, but being a "national church" is not necessarily about explicit legislation. --LPfi (talk) 11:49, 13 January 2011 (UTC)

Finnish classical music

"Finnish classical music has only existed for about a hundred years" - I think fans of Mr Sibelius (to name but one) might disagree. Straw Cat (talk) 19:01, 17 January 2011 (UTC)

About is the key. The national awakening following the autonomy in 1809 created a demand for unique Finnish culture, including music. The awakening did not come overnight and classical music was not the first thing considered. I suppose there were few classical composers in Finland 175 years ago, the music of which hardly differed from music in e.g. Sweden.
The German Fredrik Pacius was appointed music teacher at the University of Helsinki in 1834. He is considered the father of Finnish classical music. Jean Sibelius was born 1865. So 150 years might be nearer the truth than 100, but the point is that the Finnish tradition of classical music is quite young.
I hope you can find a source that gives some more information on when classical music in Finland got an established character of its own. In the meantime I suppose one could change the 100 to 150.
--LPfi (talk) 12:42, 18 January 2011 (UTC)

Name of Finland

In Etymology I see mistake: Suo means swamp in Finnish. --Fenn-O-maniC (talk) 17:43, 15 February 2011 (UTC)

This is what is called a folk etymology. The original form of the word was Šääme, which is analogous to zeme. The changes leading to suo- occurred later. Another explanation is this, where the Indo-European word *gʰm-ōn "man" is suggested as the origin of Proto-Finnish *ćoma, which later became Suomi. This makes sense, because ethnonyms often have the literal meaning "man" and are often loanwords. The etymology remains disputed, but this does not mean all proposed etymologies are equivalent in merit. --vuo (talk) 19:46, 15 February 2011 (UTC)

Finnish name

Its not mentioned in the article that Suomen tasavalta means Finnish Republic, not Republic of Finland. Am I right? --maxval (talk) 15:32, 13 November 2010 (UTC)

Wouldn't that be redundant? The article already states that Suomi refers to Finland. (The name Suomi (Finnish for "Finland")). Tty29a (talk) 15:49, 13 November 2010 (UTC)
Actually, Suomen tasavalta best translates as "Republic of Finland". Prolog (talk) 17:55, 13 November 2010 (UTC)
OK, but LITERALLY it is Finnish Republic, isnt it? --maxval (talk) 11:09, 14 November 2010 (UTC)
Nope. "Suomen" is a genitive form of Suomi. Prolog (talk) 18:19, 14 November 2010 (UTC)
Thanks. --maxval (talk) 20:10, 14 November 2010 (UTC)
Suomen tasavalta is best translated The Republic of Finland —Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.242.176.250 (talk) 13:48, 25 January 2011 (UTC)
The Republic of Finland is correct, and also sounds a lot better than Finnish Republic. Wouldn't Finnish Republic be like Suomalainen tasavalta?--87.93.230.69 (talk) 14:30, 16 March 2011 (UTC)
Suomen tasavalta, Republiken Finland, is best – and (more or less) officially – translated to English as "The Republic of Finland". There are some other countries, however, whose official name is in English "The Demonym Republic", such as Slovakia (The Slovakian Republic), Russia (The Russian Federation), Portugal (The Portuguese Republic), Italy (The Italian Republic) and The Czech Republic. All of these are, too, written in Finnish as "Genitive tasavalta" except for one single exception: The Dominican Republic (Dominikaaninen tasavalta, República Dominicana). Venezuela (The Bolivarian Republic of Venezuela, República Bolivariana de Venezuela, Venezuelan bolivariaaninen tasavalta) has an adjective qualifier (bolivariaaninen) also, but the base word (Venezuelan) is still a genetive noun in Finnish. Interestingly Italy and some others are so called false friends in this sense. Italian in "The Italian Republic" and "Italian tasavalta" is demonym (adjective) in English but genitive (noun) in Finnish. For those interested in more, KOTUS (Research Institute for the Languages of Finland) has a comprehensive list of county, capital and nationality names in Finnish. --hydrox (talk) 19:30, 16 March 2011 (UTC)

Of course "Republic of Finland" is a correct translation of "Suomen tasavalta" but please note that the only names for the country in its constitution are "Suomi" and "Finland". The "long form" is often called the "official name" but that is not correct. It is just kind of ceremonial, used in international treaties and other "solemn" documents. I think this is true for many other countries' "long names", too. --Surfo (talk) 18:17, 16 March 2011 (UTC)

Dead links; "update"s

Someone did the first step -- or a chunk of it -- and went through and found quite a number (15+-?) out-of-date links in the citations, many of them just recently. Now I've followed up, starting trying to eliminate the "dead link" templates. My first, I found an alternate source but after that I wasn't so lucky. Of my next five or so I had to simply remove the link on a couple; on the other three or so I had better or not-so-good/what-was-available routes to potential updates. They would, however, entail also rewriting, with updated information, the text. That's beyond my current brief. So I added to the footnotes the new links I'd found with intro's like "To update:" or the like. Not a Wiki:Template, but close. One can search the article for the word "update" and find them easily.

Hope it's some help. There's a Wikipedia:Administration page I stumbled on a month or so ago which led me here on today's little project. If the monthly numbers are to be believed, there, a fairly remarkable monitoring and upgrading process has been in train. I'll try to at least finish (no pun intended) my limited project here in coming days or weeks, unless serious objection is raised. (I'd like to get the article off that "dead-link list," maybe by April. Hey!) Cheers! Swliv (talk) 03:40, 11 March 2011 (UTC)

Corruption

The section on the development of corruption includes some dubious statements. The statement that corruption has diminished is based on a book I do not have handy. The statement, based on the same book, "For instance, economic reforms and EU membership introduced stricter requirements for open bidding and many public monopolies were abolished." indicate a belief that the public sector is inherently corrupted.

I think that either the source is biased or, more probably, the Wikipedia editor misinterprets the text. I believe corruption never has been thought to be a big problem in Finland, and the problems we have had are probably still present (perhaps even worse).

--LPfi (talk) 20:01, 17 March 2011 (UTC)

If you look at the actual source, there are, for example, extremely low counts of cases of giving/taking bribes and of conviction. Statistically even a 100% increase would still be essentially nothing. And I agree that abolishing public monopolies is not to be taken as getting rid of something bad, rather it's a reflection on monopolies outside of Finland--whose code of public service conduct goes back for centuries. PЄTЄRS J V ►TALK 20:42, 17 March 2011 (UTC)

Where is Tom of Finland?

Embarrassing or not, the only contemporary Finnish artist with international name recognition is "Tom of Finland," as he signs himself. His familiar art has been the subject of scholarly texts from important presses. He's the Finnish national artist, for lack of others. And I would almost say that there is something deeply Finnish about his subject, with its sexual fascination with uniforms and power. Plenty of books on him. He belongs in this article. Profhum (talk) 07:38, 6 April 2011 (UTC)

Right here: Tom of Finland. Cheers, Rayshade (talk) 00:33, 7 April 2011 (UTC)

Error in page

The opening section says that Finland is the 2nd most stable country in the world. The link takes it to a page describing it as the second most "sustainable" country in the world. Big difference. Please fix. 98.19.34.71 (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 08:04, 1 May 2011 (UTC).


History of alliance with the Nazis

It states in the introduction that Finland had conflicts against the Soviet Union and Germany, while we were allied with the germans for a time during the war. A more unbiased would be something that describes the alliance too. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.112.178.107 (talk) 13:43, 11 April 2011 (UTC)

Reference to Alaska in the "Economy" section

I'm removing the reference to Alaska in the Economy section, as I feel it is irrelevant.

"The country lies between 60° and 70° north latitude – as far north as Alaska..."

I'd like to know the relevance of adding the clause about Alaska - this seems to be a very US-centric addition, and adds very little meaning to other English speakers. I already understand it's position from "60° and 70°," but the reference to Alaska does nothing to make the position clearer. Geqo (talk) 02:19, 21 April 2011 (UTC)

Crime is mostly committed by "drunk persons"

This needs verification. I didn't delete it, but I added the citation needed tag to this bit of information. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Chaseeversole (talk • contribs) 05:39, 29 April 2011 (UTC)

The Economy section is a bit unbalanced

The section on Economy has much more descriptions about agriculture than it does about other sectors of the economy, such as manufacturing.Landroo (talk) 17:07, 27 June 2011 (UTC)

Controversial history

The Finnish civil war and the relations to Germany in World War II are controversial. The wordings should be balanced and based on good sources.

I removed some controversial wording from the lead: "communist revolution" and "invasion by Stalin". As long as there is no consensus I think it is better that readers get the hole picture from the appropriate sections, articles or literature.

Also in the history sections there are problems: "no more" Soviet coups insinuates that the Civil war was orchestrated by Lenin. Seems like clear POV. The cooperation between Finland and Germany before the war would need a lot of light. Now there are contested references about that.

In Finnish history writing Finland did not aid the Germans in the siege of Leningrad. Finnish troops did control areas around the city, so strictly speaking that is not true, but the key point is they refused to attack and (if I have understood correctly) to give some essential support. The Siege of Leningrad article might describe this correctly.

--LPfi (talk) 07:23, 28 August 2011 (UTC)

Multilingualism/Languages

I find it strange that almost 50% of the population can hold a conversation in both Finnish and Swedish, but there is not much mentioned on multilingualism in this country. There should exist a fairly large number of inhabitants with two native languages. (Filadifei 17:39, 16 November 2011 (UTC))

What do you exactly find strange? When it comes down to constitution, Finland is a country with two equally official languages. All government documents are available and equally binding in both languages. Members of Eduskunta can and do debate in either language of their choosing. You can always have any official documents and services – including court and police – in either language. There is compulsory education of the "second domestic language" (defined as Swedish for those officially registered as Finnish-speakers, and vice versa) on all levels of education from elementary school to academia. This is why most people speak both languages to at least some degree. --hydrox (talk) 18:08, 16 November 2011 (UTC)
Well, that was my point. You confirm my theory that multilingualism is widespread in this country. Yet it is hardly mentioned in statistics/articles on this country. (Filadifei 18:29, 16 November 2011 (UTC))
Define what do you mean with multilingualism. Officially everyone in Finland has one and one only primary language. If multilingualism is defined as being able to strike a conversation in more than one language, it is so widespread everywhere in the world that I would be wary of including it in any country article. --hydrox (talk) 19:08, 16 November 2011 (UTC)

I was referring to the native languages. It might be the case though, as you mention, that no such statistics are available or that the actual figure (should we have it) would be very low. (Filadifei 19:20, 16 November 2011 (UTC))

Okay yes, now I understand. Yes, the number of people who have two or more native languages is – I think – not officially recorded. At least no such number can be drawn from the official Statistics Finland data, because it only records one primary (native) language, and does not concern with native bi- or multilingualism. However, I would think that number of natively multilingual people in this sense is actually rather low. All families generally have one home language, and that is for most people their official native language. Then also, there is the language of the surrounding immediate society (local town, or part of town).. in most areas this is Finnish, but on some areas it is Swedish or Sami. Nowhere is it really anything else – Finland has no "Chinatowns" or French quarters. One could argue that a child of Swedish-speaking family in a Finnish-speaking town could be defined statistically as natively multilingual (or a child of Vietnamese-speaking family in a mostly Swedish-speaking town for that matter), because they generally develop extremely proficient in both languages due to need to cope in the surrounding society in either language.
We could draw the data by comparing native language to the primary official language of the municipality of residence, but this would introduce significant statistical errors because municipalities are rather large, and local language can vary within one municipality. --hydrox (talk) 19:36, 16 November 2011 (UTC)

Did this go through?

"In October 2009, Finland's Ministry of Transport and Communications committed to ensuring that every person in Finland will be able to access the internet at a minimum speed of one megabit-per-second beginning July 2010.[128]"

Well it's July 2010 now, did he succeed? I'm certainly no good at researching these things. --Sgtlion (talk) 06:17, 17 November 2011 (UTC)

"Committed". Yes, in its statement. But the policy is that in practice this is not the business of the government. It has given money for municipalities in the sparsely inhabited areas, but for example Väståboland was not deemed sparsely enough populated and the sea between islands ignored. Sonera (former national telephony company, now private) was not allowed to lay down its copper based telephony network, as wireless connections were not up to the 1 Mbps other than in theory. Copper isn't either, but at least more reliable.
So the government is giving some support for those wanting to build 1 Mbps connections, but is not doing it itself, nor in anyway guaranteeing building them will be economically possible. There is fibre mostly anywhere, but the owners are not forced (and not willing) to share them for decent prices. Ironic, as the biggest players are owned by the government, unless already sold out.
--LPfi (talk) 15:32, 25 November 2011 (UTC)

Religion edit

I removed this statement: In recent years, the church's position on homosexuality has spurred some Finns to declare themselves unaffiliated.[1][2] The articles cited (describing resignations from the Church's official rolls following intolerant comments of a Christian politician) do not support the deleted statement. 208.68.128.53 (talk) 23:01, 19 December 2011 (UTC)

Are you serious? Using free webforms to interprit the church's position, while the statement was not made by church nor its officials, but a politician of a christian party (read religious right). — Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.106.54.22 (talk) 17:41, 2 April 2012 (UTC)

Picture of Finland men's national ice hockey team

Edited the caption a bit (corrected a misspelled "of" added a couple of links). Still think its overly long, though. Anybody more sports savvy care to revise it all together? Juhoeemeli (talk) 16:01, 23 January 2012 (UTC)

Social security

Social security is now guarateed for everyone. Source [1] — Preceding unsigned comment added by Finnishreindeer (talk • contribs) 21:11, 3 April 2012 (UTC)

Now? The law has been the same for ages. --hydrox (talk) 21:46, 3 April 2012 (UTC)

"Other languages" in the info-box

At the moment the info-box lists Russian and Estonian under "other languages". I don't see such a category in the info-boxes of other countries of the region, although many of them have even larger linguistic minorities as a result of immigration. I don't think it's relevant information to the info-box. Information is already found under Demographics. --89.27.36.41 (talk) 17:11, 13 June 2012 (UTC)

Right. I removed the "other languages" from the box. --Surfo (talk) 15:37, 14 June 2012 (UTC)

Extra clarification about Finland not actually being part of Scandinavia?

There could be extra clarification about Finland not actually being part of Scandinavia, but instead The Nordic Countries.

Sometimes the term Scandinavia is also taken to include Iceland, the Faroe Islands, and Finland, on account of their historical association with the Scandinavian countries.[2] Such usage, however, may be considered inaccurate in the area itself, where the term Nordic countries instead refers to this broader group.[3]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scandinavia

--Mayhaymate (talk) 14:38, 14 August 2012 (UTC)

Top of Olyimpic medals per capita-misleading

The figures provided are medal tallies from both the main olympics and the winter ones as well. If the winter games medals are deducted the figures change radically. The winter games are not contested by most nations in the world. There is a big bias towards about a score of winter snowbound nations eg the Scandinaviam nations such as Finland. I guess its some compensation for having a nation under a billion tonnes of snow each winter!

You're wrong. The medal tallies here[2] are only from Summer Olympics: it shows Finland with 302 medals, which is the number of medals Finland has won in the Summer Games. In Winter Olympics Finland has won 156 medals, but those are not counted in that website's tally. See also here:[3] --89.27.36.41 (talk) 19:24, 6 September 2012 (UTC)

Religion statistics

This text in the section "Religion" appears to me to be somewhat misleading:

"The second largest group, accounting for 20.1% of the population, has no religious affiliation. A small minority belong to the Finnish Orthodox Church (1.1%). Other Protestant denominations and the Roman Catholic Church in Finland are significantly smaller, as are the Muslim, Jewish and other non-Christian communities (totaling 1.5%)."

If I have understood correctly, majority of Muslims living in Finland are not officially affiliated with any official Muslim community. Because of this, they are classified as having no religious affiliation, although they may be religious and active participants in Muslim communities. So, these figures tend to underestimate the number of religiously active Muslims. This is probably true also regarding some other religious minority groups. Thus, the group "no religious affiliation" contains various kinds of people from atheists to religious Muslims and non-affiliated Christians. I'd welcome some kind of clarification about this in the article. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 188.67.98.27 (talk) 16:29, 16 August 2012 (UTC)

Actually, there probably aare several different good sources of info on this. Because Finalnd is officially a Lutheran state, there are official data on how many people are a part of the church. However, it is widely accepted in Finland that most members of that Church are so-called non-practicioners. Another source could be the ESS-data for example. This data is collected from various EU countries by social scientist and gives and estimate of the amount of people in different religions 88.114.154.216 (talk) 10:40, 13 September 2012 (UTC)
According to the Statistics Center[4] the "no affiliation" and "other" are separate categories with 20.1% in the "no affiliation" and 1.5% in the "other" in 2011. Both have experienced growth: in 1990 "no affiliation" had 10.2% and "other" had 0.9%. The growth in "no affiliation" comes from secularisation, while the growth in "other" comes mainly from immigration. --89.27.36.41 (talk) 17:16, 4 October 2012 (UTC)
This probably is true, but IIRC when you look at the ESS 2006, the proportion of people that report participating in a religious institute at least once a week is under 10%. A large amount of people are reported as having an affiliation with the state church but do not "go to curch" and do not believe in God. 88.114.154.216 (talk) 08:54, 17 October 2012 (UTC)

Perussuomalaiset official name

AFAIK, the official English name of Perussuomalaiset is The Finns. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.114.154.216 (talk) 10:42, 13 September 2012 (UTC)

Let's make this a Good Article!

Hi all, I've seen this article's recent failed nomination to GA. Let's work together and do all the work necessary to fix all the problems so we can nominate it again. Let's use this thread to discuss our progress.

Here are the problems that the reviewer pointed out:

  • There are large numbers of "citation needed", "not in citation given", "verification needed", "dead link" and other tags
  • There are also other (untagged) swaths of unreferenced information, which contain statistics, opinions and other information which must be referenced.
  • I am also seeing multiple references to other Wikipedia articles, which may not be used as references.

Let's fix it! Azylber (talk) 14:58, 10 January 2013 (UTC)

Ok, I've just repaired 4 links to dab pages Azylber (talk) 15:35, 10 January 2013 (UTC)

Peijainen

Please take a look in to 'Peijainen'. Google books says nothing. Fegular google gives zillions of wikipedia knock-offs. I suspect hoax, because 19th centrury books in google books say it is a name of some god. Staszek Lem (talk) 20:22, 14 January 2013 (UTC)

Can outright confirm as non-hoax. I'll try to put some ref's to the article. --hydrox (talk) 21:32, 14 January 2013 (UTC)

Peijainen mekanismi nothing. I know it as Finn. It still can be name of place or city or something. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.236.224.215 (talk) 18:23, 9 March 2013 (UTC)

Society - nuclear family statements

The statements in the article that:
"Finnish family life is centred on the nuclear family"
and that:
"Relations with the extended family are often rather distant and Finnish people do not form politically significant clans, tribes or similar structures."
both require references and, in my opinion, some explanation.
Families were historically reasonably large in Finland as elsewhere, and so in the absence of sufficient disposable material wealth to enable each offspring to leave and set up home alone, they would be expected, as a natural consequence of procreation, to have become extended. The statement needs at least to be contextualised historically. By seeming contrast to Finland, in Western Europe, the nuclear family was the result of the imposition, by force, of religious and economic ideologies.
Similarly, the second statement seems at odds with both current socio-political reality and orthodox anthropology. For instance, the assets, material and human, of any individual family would be at the mercy of any larger grouping. There remains great enmity between different regions in Finland, which is reflected in the quotidial and universal use of local dialects. The term "politically significant" also requires clarification and reference if it is not to serve merely as a weasel term.
LookingGlass (talk) 08:08, 16 March 2013 (UTC)

Finland's history from appr. the year 100BC on until the beginning of the first millenium missing

First known king: http://www.geni.com/people/Kari-Fornjotsson/6000000001669620081

"There was a king named Fornjot, he ruled over those lands which are called Finland and Kvenland; that is to the east of that bight of the sea which goes northward to meet Gandvik; that we call the Helsingbight."

Fornjot was born in Finland, so he was Finnish and Finland either meant or included the area of Kvenland. Northmen called Finns as Kvens.

http://www.emersonkent.com/images/maps/europe_814.jpg

The map of Europe from the year 814 showing that Finland/Kvenland was the pre-eminent northern power of Europe for a thousand year period.

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_bFE1C2V08s0/S63Y94f9wsI/AAAAAAAABDY/z99gYWEkaRg/s1600/frnjtre.gif http://www.davidkfaux.org/files/deBeaufouFullReport.pdf

Above the pedigree of the Finnish kings.

Why does the article modestly state that "the name Finland appears on three rune-stones", when we know it appears in a dozen of the earliest northern and other sagas?

Similarly, the world's oldest runic inscription is in Finnish... Why not mention this?

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-aFtvb1ghkZU/UVna8N3fYwI/AAAAAAAACas/tO1h95rTDDI/s320/Harja+Vimose.jpg

"This is the oldest runic inscription found. It says HARJA which is exactly the same as 'harja', meaning comb or , brush or ridge, in modern Finnish. The word is etymologically very old and had this Finnish form when the comb was made, i.e. it cannot be confused with some non-Finnish interpretation. Moreover, the word is found in all sister languages. The possibly related Baltic (or other) words do not resemble it at all neither now nor back then. The comb was found in Denmark and is dated to 160 CE (same time as the birth of Fornjotr, king of Finland, Kvenland and Gotland)."

This clearly indicates that we're not talking about one or more uncivilized tribes, but that we're talking about the most advanced early northern civilization there was.

The amount of material is simply overwhelming and yet not a word is mentioned in the article. Wikipedia does have a questionable reputation in many respects, but there are people who take the given information (or lack of it) seriously.

The whole article must be rewritten by someone who knows about these things. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 91.155.236.125 (talk) 00:59, 4 June 2013 (UTC)

I agree, it should be mentioned, you can find better links than blogspot too. Bladesmulti (talk) 07:22, 20 August 2013 (UTC)

Images

Has anyone else looked at the images critically? A lot has been added, but little removed. Also, general quality and uniformity control would improve the article a lot. What I currently see is not the best selection:

  1. Astuvansalmi - A picture of a rock and a tree. In the thumbnail, you can't see the paintings. Proposal: Remove without replacement.
  2. Sweden map - Good. Better ones are always possible. Keep.
  3. Soviet document - Not illustrative. More central to this would be e.g. something related to the civil war or the 1910s in general. Proposal: Replace with an image from Finnish Civil War.
  4. WW2 map - Good, though it would be even better to have e.g. the Viipuri castle here to "give life" to what was ceded; the map is especially in the thumbnail for rather lifeless. Furthermore, too many maps would be detrimental. Proposal: Replace with e.g. Viipuri.
  5. Kekkonen - Good. The obviously most important person of the era. Proposal: Keep.
  6. Sorsa - Partially redundant with Kekkonen. There's already one politician, and in this era, it can't be anyone but. Proposal: Remove without replacement.
  7. Euro - Useless and not Finland-specific (Finnish euro coins would be). This is just "garnishing" textbook style, no value added to article. Proposal: Remove, replace with something current.
  8. Geography images up to regions map: I'm content with these. Proposal: Keep.
  9. Admin divisions: Good otherwise, but these suffer from something common in the article: there are no people, it's just the structure that is visible. Proposal: Replace some.
  10. Municipalities map: Could it be removed or merged with provinces map? Proposal: Merge.
  11. Parliament: Nice picture, but is this just decoration? Proposal: Keep.
  12. Ahtisaari: Good, there's people here. Proposal: Keep.
  13. Flags in front of EU building: Decorative, would belong to an article about the EU but not necessarily here. Proposal: Remove without replacement.
  14. Armed forces: Nice to get vehicles from each branch represented, but I think this is not Finland-specific. Could there be a replacement for the ski patrol picture from the Finnish Defence Forces that was deleted due to licensing problems? Proposal: Find one good image to replace all.
  15. Nokia: Proposal: Keep, due to economic importance.
  16. Angry Birds. Proposal: Keep. People in the picture.
  17. GDP growth: Proposal: Keep. Hard to replace.
  18. Aleksanterinkatu: Proposal: Keep.
  19. Product exports: May be rather too "generable", but it's useful. Proposal: Keep.
  20. Eurozone: Excessive detail? Could some other maps be included here? Proposal: Merge.
  21. Olkiluoto: Otherwise good but hard to see the details in the thumbnail. Proposal: Replace if possible.
  22. Reindeers: I think this is tourist guide stuff. You don't see that on Kehä I. Proposal: Remove without replacement.
  23. Icebreakers: Proposal: Keep as Finland-specific.
  24. Helsinki-Vantaa: Proposal: Remove since there are plenty of airports in the world, and the picture is largely useless with respect to the article.
  25. VR: I don't know if this is necessary. It's a good image, though. Proposal: Keep.
  26. Suomenlinna: Would be more relevant in the history section. This one would be better for the subject matter. Proposal: Move in-article, replace with another image.
  27. Churches: The main religion is Christianity, so it has to be there somehow, but do we need two images of just churches? Proposal: Remove one.
  28. Agricola: Good. Proposal: Keep.
  29. Aalto amfi: Are there less "architecture photography"-type versions? Proposal: Replace if possible.
  30. Seminaarinmäki: Redundant with previous. Proposal: Remove without replacement.
  31. Kansallismuseo: Would it be more helpful to have the art, not the museum? Proposal: Replace with art.
  32. Sibelius: Good. Proposal: Keep.
  33. Apocalyptica: Idiosyncratic to Finland. Could be updated if there are other ideas. Proposal: Keep.
  34. Linus: The guy now lives in the U.S., so how relevant is he here? But, he's from Finland. Proposal: Keep.
  35. Karjalanpiirakka: Good. Proposal: Keep.
  36. Sauteed reindeer: Redundant, maybe OK in the cuisine article. Proposal: Remove without replacement.
  37. Kokko: Proposal: Remove without replacement. This is just a picture of a fire, hardly useful.
  38. Ice hockey: Good, as the sport #1 in the country. Proposal: Keep.
  39. Paavo Nurmi: Are two sports images necessary? Proposal: Remove without replacement.

That's a lot of images, so some pruning would be in order. These are my opinions. Please comment. Also, it would be helpful to list potential images to add. For instance, I think the lasting legacy of the 70s bilateral trade isn't Sorsa's face, but the Loviisa nuclear power plant. I want to have this here as an unified discussion, rather than start pruning it myself individually and get reverted. --vuo (talk) 19:13, 14 October 2013 (UTC)

Lead paragraph

Same here. See Sweden:talk. Not only should the lead not contain rankings from specific organizations(Newsweek) why should a specific number from a specific year(per capita) be mentioned. Why not just say "Finland has a high per capita income" or something like that? KingdomHearts25 (talk) 14:01, 28 April 2014 (UTC)

Wrong Flag

Although the flag shown on the article is the civil flag of Finland, the official state flag is different.It has a red emblem in the middle. Proof is on the flag of finland article — Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.21.61.62 (talk) 20:10, 23 March 2013 (UTC)

The state flag is used by state officials, but the normal flag without the coat of arms is the one that is used to represent Finland at international organisations like the EU and the UN and at international sport events etc. --Jaakko Sivonen (talk) 01:47, 25 July 2014 (UTC)

Sami language (in the infobox)

In response to user E3's edit: the Sami languages (there are three in Finland, not just one) have a position as recognised regional languages (in the four northernmost municipalities of Finland, out of the total of about 300 municipalities). That does not make them official on a national level, and civil servants are not required to speak them. The Finnish constitution states that the the national languages (i.e. official languages) of Finland are Finnish and Swedish. These are the languages of the state, meaning that all civil servants are required to speak both, all laws are published in both languages and the MPs can use either language in the parliament etc.. Sami is not on the same level with Finnish and Swedish. Thus the Sami name of the country does not belong in the infobox. Please note that Sweden has several officially recognised minority languages, similar to the position of Sami in Finland, yet the Wikipedia article on Sweden uses none of them in the infobox country name. A good comparison could also be seen in the case of the Sorbian languages, which have an official status in the regions of Saxony and Brandenburg, where they are spoken. Yet no one to my knowledge has suggested adding the Sorbian name of Germany into the infobox of the Wikipedia article Germany. ---Jaakko Sivonen (talk) 01:25, 25 July 2014 (UTC)

Well put. I don't see a reason for them being included in the infobox or article lead. They are not official languages on the state level, unlike say the four official languages of Switzerland (Schweiz / Suisse / Svizzera / Svizra). Finland only has two official languages, Finnish and Swedish. There is no distinction between them on constitutional level, so both should be included. But Sami languages are only relevant in the very north of the country, and have no state-level official status. --hydrox (talk) 21:52, 27 July 2014 (UTC)
Hello Jaakko Sivonen and hydrox,
The edit in question did not in any way specify that any Northern Sami variety is official, it clearly stated that it is a native name for a recognised ethnic group within Finland, and is included in the native name category in the infobox, and further put in between the brackets. The information itself is not misleading and can be useful for whoever may need it. The fact that it is not official is why it is not included in the lead as an official name, however you may note the example of Republic of Karelia or Lebanon for instance, and the examples of individual cities or regions such as Andalusia or Oran where the regional names have been included. I therefore suggest that it would be added either in the lead or in the native name infobox section since the information may be helpful and is not in nature misleading.
Regards to both.
E3 (talk) 09:24, 3 August 2014 (UTC)
Inclusion of the Sami name in the infobox or lead with Finnish and Swedish names definitely gives the reader the impression that Sami has an equal status with those languages, which it in reality does not have. Again, I don't see the Wikipedia articles on Sweden or Germany having the names of the country in recognised minority languages in neither the infobox nor the lead. In the current version of this article, the word 'Sami' is mentioned 26 times in the article, so the Sami issue is in no way being ignored. --Jaakko Sivonen (talk) 09:38, 3 August 2014 (UTC)
Hello Jaakko Sivonen,
I have not discussed whether or not "Sami-related issues are ignored", I wonder why you would presume that on my behalf.
I do believe some readers may interpret it as having an equal status with other official languages, therefore I would suggest including it with a smaller font as a native name, since it evidently is.
If it is not included within Sweden or Germany, it might be done so within the future if brought to interest. Yet again I must reiterate my previous point where similar examples have already been included since the quality of the information is in no way misleading but quite the opposite, so if you would be willing, we could include it as a native name with a smaller font to signal its different status from Finnish and Finnish Swedish.
Thank you for your reply.
Regards
E3 (talk) 10:47, 3 August 2014 (UTC)
Still disagree. It is the general policy in Wikipedia articles on countries to use only the official language names (and of course the English name) in the infobox and in the lead. If there are exceptions to this, then they are just that: exceptions, not the rule (and other stuff exists). You mention regional examples like Andalusia or the Republic of Karelia, which have other names in the lead, but these are not the same as articles on independent countries. The equivalence to those articles is not this article, but the articles on Finnish regions and municipalities, and you may note that the article Lapland (Finland) does mention the Northern Sami name and the article on Utsjoki mentions the name in all of the three Sami languages spoken in Finland. This is how it should be, since the Sami languages have recognition as regional languages (in the area shown on this map), not as national languages. This article deals with Finland as a whole, and on a national level there are only two official languages: Finnish and Swedish. ---Jaakko Sivonen (talk) 11:25, 3 August 2014 (UTC)
Hello Jaakko Sivonen,
As you can see from my examples, one regards a nation with its proper constitution, and the other regards a region. It is clearly stated in my previous comment that "you may note the example of Republic of Karelia or Lebanon for instance, and the examples of individual cities or regions such as Andalusia or Oran".
Granted that the Republic of Karelia is a subject state of Russia, however it has its own constitution, which states that Russian is the sole official language. Perhaps then a cleanup for its lead section and the removal of the names may be in place.
Sadly I can only find your disagreement rather counter-productive. It was my wish to use the Finland article as an exemplary one on related issues, however it seems rather not possible.
I would still reiterate my proposal of including the Northern Sami name in small letters in the native, not official, name section for the same reasons mentioned above, i.e. the quality of the information is in no way misleading and it may be helpful. If not then we would unfortunately remain in the status quo disagreement.
Thank you for your reply and contribution.
Regards
E3 (talk) 14:10, 3 August 2014 (UTC)
Kind of better comparison would be, if in the article Russia had the state's name in all minoritie's languages (what it doesn't). It's about relevancy; Sami dialects are not official languages at the state level, and at that, are comparable to any other languages (dialects) spoken in Finland by any of it's citizens. As Sivonen said only FIN and SWE, and here naturally ENG stand apart of the others in that regard. It's not a try to disparage the worth of Sami languages nor a try to supress Sami's as people. --J. Sketter (talk) 15:03, 6 August 2014 (UTC)
Hello J. Sketter,
Kindly refer to my previous comment acknowledging the fact that Sami languages are not official in Finland but they still remain native, and also providing counter examples for the Finnish name in other countries' Wikipedia article leads, such as that of the Republic of Karelia, where Finnish is neither official nor recognised. Also kindly refer to my previous comment where I have stated that I have not mentioned whether or not Sami-related issues are ignored nor suppressed. I would have re-quoted my previous comment, yet I dislike redundancy.
Also, the Russia example is not in any way a "better" example, though I agree with you that it is about relevancy, which is why I have stated that, since in my opinion the Sami Name is relevant, it should be included in small fonts, i.e. Suoma dásseváldi (Northern Sami).
Regards
E3 (talk) 14:12, 31 August 2014 (UTC)

Deletion and yet no agreement to deletion?!?

I'm shocked by what's happened to this article and even more by that happened to its talk page. Since I visited last year (not a long time ago I would suggest) the article seems to have been entirely rewritten and the talk page from that time has simply been replaced. I've never seen this happen before. Amazingly, key information has simply been swept away. In the new "improved" version, the word nationalism occurs only once, in the music section! The word fenoman/men does not feature at all! Bearing in mind the significance of nationalism to Finnish history this is mind blowing. The Main article references given regarding this period of history are not to main articles on this section but to "See also" articles, one of which is little more than a stub. On the talk page, discussion re religion and perussuomalainen has been deleted. In short it seems nothing is left from the work others put into these pages up to a year ago. My understanding is that this is not something Wiki protocols allow for, so how it has happened is a mystery. My understanding is that the work of others is to be built upon not deleted and rewritten in its entirety. Deleting the talk page is a truly astonishingly arrogant act. I can't find any other way of putting it. The talk page is an area for discussion not something to be edited to one editor's personal preference. Can anyone please explain the process that has been followed here and how it fits into Wikipedia's "codes of conduct"? LookingGlass (talk) 18:03, 4 October 2014 (UTC)

Huh? Nothing is deleted from the talk page, but old discussions are archived to Talk:Finland/Archive 4. --Stryn (talk) 20:01, 4 October 2014 (UTC)
If you wish, it is true that it would be more accurate to say that the contents have been deleted AND archived, as they have been removed from the talk page (deleted) and copied into an archive file (archived). However, while pages of such notability as that on Sigmund Freud for instance does have an archive for its Talk page the list of those archives is displayed and accessible via the header to that page, while there is no such header for this page. The "archive" for this page is not accessible therefore via such a user friendly route. Standard practice can be seen from the talk pages of, for instance (they're ones I have open at the moment) Polyvagal Theory, where the discussion dates back to 2008, or that of Linguistic relativity dating back to 2012 or Sociobiology going back to 2003. Of course Wiki history is searchable, nothing is literally lost, but that is tangential. LookingGlass (talk) 09:26, 5 October 2014 (UTC)
Archive links can be seen in the top right. --Stryn (talk) 07:29, 8 October 2014 (UTC)
Would you be a little more specific? Though I can't see, even if you help me to understand what you're talking about, what it will change as the fact that I cannot easily find the archives and the fact that they are archives does not change the points I have made. LookingGlass (talk) 10:25, 9 October 2014 (UTC)

What's your problem, LookingGlass? Links to the archive pages are clearly visible, up there near the table of contents (I am using the full browser version, not a mobile app). I could easily open, for instance, "archive 4", and it was equally easy to find one of your comments: "There remains great enmity between different regions in Finland, which is reflected in the quotidial and universal use of local dialects." Thank you for the laugh of the day. --Surfo (talk) 12:35, 9 October 2014 (UTC)

My "problem" was that I am used to finding the archives in a different place and hadn't spotted them there. Thanks for pointing them out. The issue of why these have been archived remains (see earlier posts). If there is any substance behind your comment behind your "laugh of the day", regarding my Archive 4 comment, I would be interested to hear what that might be. LookingGlass (talk) 10:42, 14 October 2014 (UTC)
They were automatically archived by User:MiszaBot I since they were over 100 days old discussions. --Stryn (talk) 05:13, 16 October 2014 (UTC)

80% willingness??

What does "Residents claim around 80% homeland defence willingness" mean?Royalcourtier (talk) 02:38, 6 December 2014 (UTC)

It's probably Finglish from maanpuolustahto. It's a result from some nation-wide polls which asked that if your country was going to war, would you be willing to defend it (with your life)? Finland has conscription so it's a bit more relevant than in some other countries, I suppose. --Pudeo' 01:53, 7 December 2014 (UTC)
I suppose the question was: "If there was a military aggression against Finland, should Finland in your opinion defend itself militarily in all situations even if the outcome was uncertain?" or "” If Finland were attacked, should Finns, in your opinion, take up arms to defend themselves in all situations, even if the outcome seemed uncertain?” – 76% answered yes in 2014. --Surfo (talk) 13:53, 12 December 2014 (UTC)

Photo of Simo Häyhä

Since when has there been a photo of Simo Häyhä on this page? He isn't even mentioned in the text. There is enough photos without his photo. I also don't think his photo is an appropriate photo to use to represent the whole generation of Finnish WWII veterans. If people really want there to be a photo of a person symbolizing the Finnish WWII generation, I would suggest a photo of Adolf Ehrnrooth. 87.95.19.139 (talk) 21:43, 17 March 2015 (UTC)

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Edits by 119.76.73.67

The article has recently seen a flood of edits by 119.76.73.67 (talk · contribs · WHOIS), namely to the section on #Military, which I have now twice reverted ([5]). Although the edits seem to be marginally sourced, I find many problems, including wide use of many primary sources (statutes of law, other legislative documents) and drawing conclusions on those. When actual newspaper sources (the preferred kind) are used they are from famously unreliable sources like tabloids, Russia Today and other Russian media. Overall, I find these edits to be trying to develop the section to give readers an impression of "something big" happening right here and now, which does not seem to be mirrored by any mainstream media. --hydrox (talk) 19:34, 15 February 2016 (UTC)

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Why is Norway not green — Preceding unsigned comment added by Niall.ash (talk • contribs) 17:12, 13 July 2016 (UTC)

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It turns out that the external link in question was simply a typo. The correct link is http://www.ibtimes.com/amid-russia-tensions-finland-calls-18000-reservists-military-training-2055027
This section still needs some work. E.g., Is "Mr Hypponen" Hannu Hyppönen? Does that need to be made clear in the article? Is the source reliable? While searching on this, I saw one source that said the comments were misconstrued, but the antivirus software on my computer says that it might not be safe to visit. (I'm not linking directly to the site, but it can be found in the search results of https://google.com/search?q=Hannu+Hypponen+afp. The site in question is finlandtimes.fi ReGuess (talk) 05:03, 20 July 2016 (UTC)

Died by execution

Why is some strange English like "thousands died by execution or from malnutrition and disease" preserved (and reverted) in the article? Why somebody left an assholistic message in my IP page talking about "Please refrain from making test edits" when it was **obviously** not a test edit? Wikipedia got to be a very hostile environment lately.

My preferred version that was reverted "thousands were executed or died from malnutrition and disease", I'm open for a better or clearer copy edit, but I'm against the "died by execution" wording. -- 66.44.34.58 (talk) 20:40, 28 August 2016 (UTC)

Finland has no state religion

"Religion" in the infobox is reserved for state religions.

Finland has no established church since the Church Act of 1869. Therefore, I remove both of the confessions. Discuss if there's any opposition.Ernio48 (talk) 08:14, 1 September 2016 (UTC)

I think the confusion stems from the fact that the article states that Finnish Evangelical Lutheran Church enjoys the status of a "national church" and this status is protected by law, alongside the Finnish Orthodox Church and generic freedom of religion. But yes, it's not a "state religion" per se. --CaptainNtheGameMaster (talk) 19:08, 1 September 2016 (UTC)

BCE/CE or BC/AD

This article currently uses a mixture of both BCE/CE and BC/AD, which goes against the relevant MOS guideline. We need to choose either one set or the other. I see this was already discussed on this talk page as early as 2007, but no kind of consensus appears to have been discussed for one versus the other. I thought I'd bring it here before choosing one myself since there's been a history of discussion about it here. — Crumpled Fire • contribs • 18:16, 4 September 2016 (UTC)

Pinging T A Francis who is the only participant in that discussion who has remained active. In the meantime, my money is on BC/AD. – Finnusertop (talk ⋅ contribs) 18:22, 4 September 2016 (UTC)
I'll also go in for BC/AD since it's also used at History of Finland and would be most appropriate for consistency's sake. — Crumpled Fire • contribs • 18:28, 4 September 2016 (UTC)

Oh don't assume that, Crumpled Fire. I am sure that the editors soaked in political correctness will opt for BCE and CE. The irony is, that BCE/CE can be read as 'Before the Christian Era' and 'Christian Era' respectively. The numbers that follow BCE and CE also refer to a numbering of years relating to the same event. So why don't they just adopt BC/AD for everything? Or should we start using Jewish years or Moslem years?? T A Francis (talk) 19:27, 9 December 2016 (UTC)

Finnic countries

Common sense question, not directly connected to the article content: If both Finland and Lithuania were to be attacked tomorrow by Russia, who do you think more estonians would volunteer to protect? If the answer is Finland, then why are some people still talking about Estonia as a "baltic state"? Or Estonia being kept away from the Nordic Council? Shouldn't the reason of a common group of countries be, including other reasons, increased protection? I think keeping up illusions is dangerous. And the answer to the question above is obviously Finland, like in the previous two times in history. Estonia belongs to a different group. Would be awesome if a term "Finnic countries" or "Finnic states" exists. JonSonberg (talk) 01:32, 21 December 2016 (UTC)

Created a Finnic countries page because I found some references to the name online JonSonberg (talk) 01:43, 21 December 2016 (UTC)

Biggest cities

The section on the biggest cities contains outdated and erroneous information; for example Hyvinkää now has a population of over 46,000. Helsinki, however, only has a population of about 700,000, not over million. Seemingly the million also contains the neighbouring municipalities Vantaa, Espoo and Kauniainen which, together with Helsinki, form the capital region (pääkaupunkiseutu, huvudstadsregionet). The word Helsinki is never used to refer to that area. Qwerty12302 (talk) 10:25, 23 December 2016 (UTC)

AfD: Finnic countries

There's currently an AfD discussion about this topic. Please give your opinion. – Sabbatino (talk) 21:09, 23 December 2016 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 29 December 2016

First sentence should mention that Finland is considered a modern western-democracy JayJay5555 (talk) 01:39, 29 December 2016 (UTC)

 Not done, we don't typically mention that sort of detail in the opening sentence. Regards, GABgab 05:09, 29 December 2016 (UTC)

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Semi-protected edit request on 2 February 2017


Hey, I want to change some wording in the article to sound more formal. For instance in the subheading ===Civil war and early independence=== 3rd paragraph:

The October Revolution in Russia changed the game anew to 'The October Revolution in Russia changed the geo-political situation anew'

and the 5th paragraph:

After a brief flirtation with monarchy to 'After a brief experimentation with monarchy' or 'a brief trial with monarchy'

Thanks.

}} JackNocturne (talk) 05:46, 2 February 2017 (UTC)

Done Gulumeemee (talk) 08:03, 2 February 2017 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 10 March 2017

who speak Finnish, an Uralic language unrelated to Scandinavian languages

Please change "an Uralic" to "a Uralic" - correcting the grammar. Craig0192 (talk) 15:39, 10 March 2017 (UTC)

 Done - a lot of people think it is always "an" before a vowel, but (of course) it is the vowel sound, not the vowel letter - a University - an Umbrella - Arjayay (talk) 17:20, 10 March 2017 (UTC)

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Edit request / question 7 April 2017

Why is a "patron saint" displayed in the infobox? Patron saints are a catholic thing, but Finland is mostly protestant / non-religious country. As far as I know, Finland doesn't "officially" have a patron saint i.e. no governmental body has ever recognised this. I request the removal of this information.

You should read the article on St. Henry. He is traditionally credited with the Christianisation of Finland, and is thus a figure of major historical significance. It is probably the most recognized folklore in Finland how he was slain by Lalli the Peasant on the ice of Lake Köyliö. Although Finland is nowadays Protestant country, no one had yet heard of Martin Luther in the 12th century and he remains the the patron saint of the Catholic Church in Finland, his name day is celebrated on January 19 and the sole pilgrimage in Finland is in his memory. --hydrox (talk) 20:04, 7 April 2017 (UTC)
I know all this, but I still don't know why this justifies the existence of such a detail in the infobox. Why this piece of folklore? Why not some other minor fact, e.g. that the Finnish national animal is the brown bear? 82.203.156.183 (talk) 21:50, 7 April 2017 (UTC)
Can't give you any better answer than that it's one of the parameters in {{Infobox country}}, unlike national animals, flowers etc. Although I have to admit it's not very widely used - of those countries listed under patron saints of places I could only find it used for Iceland, England, Wales and Scotland in addition to Finland. Did not check every country though. But all of these countries are actually Protestant just like Finland. --hydrox (talk) 09:01, 8 April 2017 (UTC)
You should read the article on St. Henry. He is traditionally credited with the Christianisation of Finland. AlfaRocket (talk) 10:11, 2 September 2017 (UTC)

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Unnecessary terms in Swedish?

As Finnish and Swedish are both official languages, terms in Finnish should be followed by a term in Swedish.--Per W (talk) 18:42, 21 October 2017 (UTC)

One term is enough. It can be Finnish or English. In articles concerning countries with more than one official language the term of the dominant language is used, or the English term (e.g. Belgium, Netherlands). What comes to Parlamentti it can be changed into Parliament of Finland but the Swedish addition is not necessary in the English article.--Velivieras (talk) 19:23, 22 October 2017 (UTC)
When you introduce a term, it should be in both languages. There is no equivalent in the boxes for Belgium and the Netherlands. --Per W (talk) 19:28, 22 October 2017 (UTC)--Per W (talk) 19:28, 22 October 2017 (UTC) Later you can use just the Finish or the English term. Per W (talk) 22:23, 22 October 2017 (UTC)
Parlamentti is now in English, which is the best option in English Wikipedia and in line with all the other terms also and in line with other country articles. --Velivieras (talk) 08:23, 23 October 2017 (UTC)

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Scandinavia

Is Finland part of Scandinavia? That article says "However, the Faroe Islands, also a Danish constituent country, are sometimes included as sometimes are Iceland, Finland and the Finnish autonomous region of the Åland Islands because of their historical association with the Scandinavian countries and the Scandinavian peoples and languages.[3] This looser definition almost equates to that of the Nordic countries." So it doesn't seem totally clear, does it? Martinevans123 (talk) 12:24, 31 December 2017 (UTC)

In everyday speech in English-speakin world this is sometimes the case, but in cultural, geographical or linguistical aspect Finland is not part of Scandinavia. The term Nordic countries includes all the Northern states.--Velivieras (talk) 12:55, 31 December 2017 (UTC)
The passage quoted above just says "sometimes", It doesn't make the subtle distinction that you do. If it's really that important I think you might want to make an adjustment to the Scandinavia article? Let's not forget this is en.wiki and so English speaking definitions will predominate. Martinevans123 (talk) 13:08, 31 December 2017 (UTC)

History section

Wouldn't it be a good idea to either rename the World War II section to something like World War II and beyond or create a new subsection, since currently all history starting from WW2 are bunched together under it? 84.250.160.98 (talk) 14:33, 5 January 2018 (UTC)

Agree, have corrected. A new sub-section could still be created if appropriate. Thanks. Martinevans123 (talk) 14:48, 5 January 2018 (UTC)

swords

keep attention to the types of the sword handle — Preceding unsigned comment added by 217.79.191.29 (talk) 16:59, 22 March 2018 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 27 May 2019

Suomijääkiekko (talk) 18:02, 27 May 2019 (UTC)

Finland has won the championship in ice hockey 3 times. In 1995, 2011 and 2019.

 Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. - FlightTime (open channel) 18:04, 27 May 2019 (UTC)

Milk consumption

The part "Cuisine" from chapter "Culture" claims incorrectly that an average Finn consumes a litre of milk per a day. Nowadays the milk consumption isn't definitely so high. Even though Finland might be the top consumer of milk in the world, the consumption has declined for a long time. The consumption was a litre per person per a day in the 1950s - in 2016 an average Finn consumed approximately 125 kilograms of milk per year. That means approximately 1/3 liters per a day.[3] The equivalent value of 2017 was 112 liters per capita per year.[4] --Arkke (talk) 14:45, 5 August 2019 (UTC)

I think the article should be updated with the latest data. Martinevans123 (talk) 14:54, 5 August 2019 (UTC)
I can't edit this article due to protection against vandalism. The incorrect data is referred into a humourous website with low source criticism. The better source is from Luke, natural resource institute of Finland. The information about milk consumption should be referred to that website, and explained about "Milk consumption is also high, about 112 litres per capita per a year".--Arkke (talk) 16:07, 5 August 2019 (UTC)
 Done. Thanks. Martinevans123 (talk) 17:13, 5 August 2019 (UTC)

References

  1. ^ "up to 18000 leave Lutheran Church over statement on gay". Hs.fi. Retrieved 2011-03-06.
  2. ^ "Wallin blames Räsänen for church's PR disaster". Helsinkitimes.fi. 2010-10-18. Retrieved 2011-03-06.
  3. ^ "Elintarvikkeiden kulutus Suomessa" (PDF). PTT Economical Survey.
  4. ^ "What was eaten in Finland in 2017". Luke.

Lede too long

The lead is too long and does not match the WP:Lead section criteria. I am removing the part about ancient history which does not concern Finland but rather its ancient territory into one or two sentences like in other county articles. I believe your behaviour is unacceptable Velivieras, there is no 10,000 years of history of Finland. Oliszydlowski (talk) 11:18, 4 August 2019 (UTC)

I agree that the introduction could be shorter, but it should be done by including the same information in more compact form, not just deleting it. Velivieras (talk) 05:07, 5 August 2019 (UTC)
Perhaps you should take part as I am not fully experienced in Finnish history. Regards. Oliszydlowski (talk) 10:41, 5 August 2019 (UTC)
I will see to his. Velivieras (talk) 06:03, 6 August 2019 (UTC)
Given that the country established autonomy within the Russian Empire only on 29 March 1809, I'm also unsure as to why material relating to history, or even pre-history, long before this, should appear in the lead section. Martinevans123 (talk) 10:49, 5 August 2019 (UTC)
Well Italy was founded in 1861 and there is a serious need for shortening the introduction. United States was founded in in 1776, Slovakia and Czech Republic in 1993 etc. All of this and many other article dress the history before those dates. If we go outside the western countries this logic comes even more problematic. Velivieras (talk) 06:03, 6 August 2019 (UTC)
Serious shortening? United States looks just about right to me, with regard to pre-formation history. But I guess the over-riding policy here is that the lead should be "a summary of its most important contents". Martinevans123 (talk) 19:36, 6 August 2019 (UTC)
This is exactly what I have done but was removed instantly under the reason that I am deleting 10,000 years of "Finish history". Oliszydlowski (talk) 11:17, 7 August 2019 (UTC)
I think that revert may have been a little hasty. The "10,000 years of "Finish history"" (debatable) is still there in the main body? Martinevans123 (talk) 11:27, 7 August 2019 (UTC) Martinevans123 (talk) 11:27, 7 August 2019 (UTC)

Exact, official definition of a country

As on the Denmark article, the Finland article has for a long time listed that "Finland is a sovereign state in Northern Europe" - which is the most exact and correct definition possible. That has now been replaced by "Finland is a Nordic country in Northern Europe". Yes, that would be correct in everyday language. But that is not correct officially / academically. Finland, according to its constitution, is a sovereign state, not a "nordic country". Finland is indeed referred to and known as being a Nordic country and it does belong to the Nordic council. But Wikipedia should be as exact and academic as possible - and that new sentence just isn't academically correct. Blomsterhagens (talk) 18:38, 21 August 2019 (UTC)

  • You don't seem to know what a Nordic country is, all of the Nordic countries are sovereign states (in Northern Europe), grouped together as "Nordic countries" ("Norden") because of their geographic location next to each other and shared history and culture. To quote that article "The Nordic countries have much in common in their way of life, history, religion, their use of Scandinavian languages and social structure.". - Tom | Thomas.W talk 18:51, 21 August 2019 (UTC)
I don't know what you're claiming here. I'm not arguing against any of that. This is not the point of the topic. Blomsterhagens (talk) 20:05, 21 August 2019 (UTC)
You wrote "Finland, according to its constitution, is a sovereign state", well, surprise, surprise, they're all sovereign states, so what has that got to do with whether they're a Nordic country or not? Finland is a Nordic country because of sharing culture, language (Swedish is an official language in Finland, there's a significant minority of native Swedish-speakers there, and it's a compulsory subject in all schools in Finland) and history (Finland was part of Sweden for at least 800 years). Which is why Finland is a member of the Nordic Council, not the other way around, that is being a Nordic country because of being a member of the Nordic Council. - Tom | Thomas.W talk 20:39, 21 August 2019 (UTC)
Of course, Finland is a Nordic country. You're not understanding the point here. Read the first post again. And then see the lead on Denmark. Blomsterhagens (talk) 21:06, 21 August 2019 (UTC)
You wrote Finland, according to its constitution, is a sovereign state, not a "nordic country", well, the Finnish constitution doesn't say it's in Northern Europe either, so what has that got to do with it? - Tom | Thomas.W talk 21:10, 21 August 2019 (UTC)
I just opened the Finnish constitution in English on Oikeusministeriö's website and the exact definition is: "Finland is a sovereign republic". Is "Nordic country" a synonym for the term "sovereign republic", "sovereign state" or even "country"? The Denmark article has this solved very nicely. Blomsterhagens (talk) 21:30, 21 August 2019 (UTC)
Where in Wikipedia's rules does it say that we can only use the official definition/description of a country, as stated in a country's constitution, in the lead of the article? The lead of the article should summarize important facts mentioned in the article, and being located in Northern Europe, being a Nordic country, i.e. part of a cultural sphere that also includes the Scandinavian countries, and being a member of the EU, are important facts that should be mentioned in the lead. Whether it's in the Finnish constitution or not. The impression I get is that you want to remove the mention of Finland being a Nordic country only because you can't add Estonia to that group of countries... - Tom | Thomas.W talk 22:05, 21 August 2019 (UTC)
Your behavior is insulting, unfair, disgusting and also unintelligent. See the edit history on the article itself to see how it checks out with your "I don't want Finland to be nordic" claim. It's insulting and disgusting. You don't know anything about me. I swear this is the last time I will ever respond to you on wikipedia. Get some help. You're acting like an a**hole. Blomsterhagens (talk) 23:13, 21 August 2019 (UTC)
My behaviour is none of that, and even though you may not remember our previous encounters here on WP (for example the long discussions that were the result of your POV editing on Ösel), I remember them very well. - Tom | Thomas.W talk 08:13, 22 August 2019 (UTC)
For the first sentence of the lead in country articles we use the term country in all related articles that are listed under the category country to avoid confusion and to allow linking of terms like Island country, transcontinental country, nordic country, Islamic country, landlocked country etc.... We do in many occasions link and mention sovereign state in the lead in the paragraph about government type I. E Germany. There is simply no need to link sovereign state as the first link in the lead or country unless it has a specific designation as mentioned above. Linking sovereign state that leads to nothing about Finland is pointless on the otherhand Nordic countries does give information about this country.... that is a sovereign state.--Moxy 🍁 18:04, 24 August 2019 (UTC)

"Suomen tasavalta"

Wiktionary says that "Suomen tasavalta", meaning "Republic of Finland", is now an outdated spelling, found on coins up to 1980. Was there a spelling-reform or some change since then? https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Suomen_tasavalta 66.241.130.86 (talk) 22:06, 3 December 2019 (UTC)

The current Suomi article uses exactly that spelling? Martinevans123 (talk) 22:16, 3 December 2019 (UTC)
It's referring to the uppercase T: "Suomen Tasavalta is not an alternative spelling, but an outdated spelling." 85.76.3.225 (talk) 22:42, 3 December 2019 (UTC)
Ah, I see. Perhaps your comment belongs at wikt:Talk:Suomen_tasavalta? Thanks. Martinevans123 (talk) 22:49, 3 December 2019 (UTC)

"Suomen tasavalta" is and has always been the correct capitalization. With uppercase T it's neither correct nor outdated. And the coins of the sixties and seventies always had the name in all caps: SUOMEN TASAVALTA. — By the way, it is not the official name of the country, just kind of ceremonial, mostly used in international treaties and diplomatic documents. The Constitution of Finland only knows the names "Suomi" in Finnish and "Finland" in Swedish. --Surfo (talk) 17:59, 4 December 2019 (UTC)

Thanks for explaining. I'm not sure that any change is needed to this article. Martinevans123 (talk) 18:53, 4 December 2019 (UTC)

Religion

Edit request : replace 70.9 with 2019 figures of 69% ref here: https://yle.fi/uutiset/osasto/news/state_church_sees_net_loss_of_membership_in_2019/11179110 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.115.204.102 (talk) 13:51, 28 January 2020 (UTC)

Edit Request

Update parliamentary details https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2019_Finnish_parliamentary_election soit says the current not the parliament from the last decade. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.115.204.102 (talk) 05:29, 17 February 2020 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 17 March 2020

Onund (talk) 17:39, 17 March 2020 (UTC)

Formation-History Where is Kalmar Union 1397 Sweden 1150-1809 Check Norway https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norway

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. JTP (talk • contribs) 18:50, 17 March 2020 (UTC)

Change proposition

"Swedish is the second official language of Finland, which is mainly spoken in certain coastal areas and on Åland." -> Swedish enjoys a position as an official language on par with Finnish, and is mainly spoken on the Finnish southern coast, in Ostrobothnia and in the autonomous region of Åland.

"the second official language" sound like an erroneous adaption of the Finnish "toinen kotimainen kieli" or "andra inhemska språket". This term comes from the educational system and the Finnish curriculum, where "the second domestic language" is either Swedish or Finnish depending on the schools main language(Finnish for schools teaching in Swedish and vice versa). In legal texts the languages are not graded in this way on a national level where one language is the prime language and the other is put in a subordinate position. From the 17th paragraph of the constitution: "Finland's national languages are Finnish and Swedish." [My translation] Other parts of the article contain similar problems, where one can notice marks of Finnish nationalistic activism. --Romuruotsalainen (talk) 06:56, 24 April 2020 (UTC)

I agree that "second" should be rephrased to "other", because it's more correct. I don't think the current status is because of "Finnish nationalistic activism" though. Please refrain from accusing people on Wikipedia, it does not help your cause in any way, because it will stop other editors from wanting to work with you. But yes - I agree that it should be "other", not second. Blomsterhagens (talk) 10:12, 25 April 2020 (UTC)

Economy

In the economy section, it says that Finland is the only nordic country to be part of the EU. Surely Sweden is a nordic country? And a member of the EU — Preceding unsigned comment added by Mosssimo35 (talk • contribs) 12:09, 23 January 2020 (UTC)

It says "Finland is the only Nordic country to have joined the Eurozone", nothing about the EU. See Eurozone. --Surfo (talk) 14:22, 23 January 2020 (UTC)
There is an unfortunate reality that a large proportion of people do not know what Eurozone really means - they do think its the same as the EU. Maybe it would help if the "Eurozone" sentence was renamed to to something like "Finland is the only Nordic country to be using the Euro as the currency - and then linking "Euro" to Eurozone. Blomsterhagens (talk) 10:15, 25 April 2020 (UTC)
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