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Not a bio, shouldn't present as one

This is a story about the disappearance of Natalee Holloway, and contains one section about Holloway before she disappeared. I recently moved the person infobox from the lead about the event to the section about the person and removed vital dates (which events don't have). Someone reverted and said calling an event like an event requires consensus, not just common sense. So I'll ask everyone reading this if you agree with common sense.

That is to say, not treating this event which immediately covers Holloway, her parents, her classmates, Joran van der Sloot, Deepak and Satish Kalpoe, the Aruban police, Governor Bob Riley, the FBI, fifty Dutch soldiers, a team of divers, an Aruban prosecutor and Alabaman judge Alan King as a biography of the sole person whose active involvement ended before the story ever became a thing.

For my part, I'm still absolutely convinced this version is the proper version. InedibleHulk (talk) 12:51, 30 September 2018 (UTC)

Hi InedibleHulk, the article is about a missing person. The infobox shows a photograph of that person, describes her a little, offers the date she disappeared, her age at the time, the area from which she disappeared, and her current status. That helps the reader who just wants the basics. It makes no sense to move it lower in the article. SarahSV (talk) 16:53, 30 September 2018 (UTC)
If this was an article about a missing person (as Elizabeth Smart and Amelia Earhart are), I'd agree entirely. But this is an article about a missing person case, more akin to the kidnapping of Elizabeth Smart. This is somewhat apparent by its title and categorization as a "May 2005 event" and "2000s missing person case", but more abundantly clear by its overwhelming focus (by seventy-one paragraphs to three) on the investigations, adaptations and criticism of those investigations and adaptations in the many years after 18-year-old Holloway died in Aruba on May 30. The whole plot moves forward through the various actions of dozens of people who are all decidedly not a Mountain Brook High School graduate from Clinton.
Readers who want those basic facts about the victim in particular (a crucial role of course, but a passive and brief one) can find all that and more in the clearly-marked Victim section (currently titled Background). I don't intend to lower or hide these quick and valid facts, just move them where they're relevant. As a bonus, the box is physically long enough to extend into the Disappearance in Aruba section, covering 100% of the material on everything Holloway affected in the case. Someone not interested in the media coverage, police pursuits, suspect confessions and all the rest could stop right there and leave happy. Meanwhile, those who appreciate those aspects as the true meat of the story can be happy knowing they're not unduly overshadowed by the one mundane girl (not an insult) who only appears in the prologue. Everyone wins, eh? InedibleHulk (talk) 19:12, 30 September 2018 (UTC)
I can't see what difference it makes, whether it's about a person or a missing-person case. The box gives us the basics: when disappeared, etc, and a photograph of the person. It belongs in the lead. I think you're focusing too much on the use of infobox person. That needn't mean that the article is a bio. SarahSV (talk) 19:38, 30 September 2018 (UTC)
A bio is about one person, so basic facts about and a photo of one person make sense in those leads. Basic facts about the actual subject. Here she's not the subject, she's just wrapped up in the event, like many people are and were. It's deceptive and confusing, as is the current lead sentence and person categories. They've already made you think this article is about a person, who knows how many others have misbelieved this? Personal information belongs in the small section about her personal life, as it does in all similar articles. If someone flatly fails the criteria for a standalone biography, it's underhanded and sneaky to twist an event article into a pseudobiography (for empathetic reasons, morbid fascination or whatever the original deal was). InedibleHulk (talk) 20:13, 30 September 2018 (UTC)
Would you oppose using a civilian attack infobox (like in Kidnapping of Elizabeth Smart) and keeping Holloway's face in the picture field? InedibleHulk (talk) 20:18, 30 September 2018 (UTC)
That wouldn't include the personal details. If you want to add extra information, we can always add a child module or whatever they're called. SarahSV (talk) 20:31, 30 September 2018 (UTC)
I don't know what that is. I know I don't want extra information, though. Just appropriate information. InedibleHulk (talk) 20:40, 30 September 2018 (UTC)
Child modules mean you can add whatever you want to any box. I can show you how to do it if there's something you want to add, such as which police force is searching for her, if any, the titles of notable books or films, and so on. As for what's there now, it's appropriate too. SarahSV (talk) 21:22, 30 September 2018 (UTC)
Thanks, but no thanks. I'll just leave what's there now there for now. Or forever, if later opiners think like you do. InedibleHulk (talk) 15:51, 2 October 2018 (UTC)

American woman vs American teenager

Should the article read was an American woman or was an American teenager. Though she was eightteen, she was a legal adult according to U.S. federal law and Dutch law (though she was still considered a minor child in her state of residence, Alabama, where the age of majority is 19 years old). Adult females are women. Should it be women since she was an adult, or teenager, since she was 18? Pinging Anthony22 who made the change from woman to teenager. This is also a question for similar articles regarding 18- and 19-year-olds, which is inconsistent. Some use man/woman and some use teenager. CookieMonster755✉ 02:33, 5 August 2019 (UTC)

"American teenager" is more specific than "American woman." "Teenager" runs from age 13 thru 19. "Woman" runs from age 18 thru 106. "Teenager" immediately lets everyone know that Natalee Holloway was a YOUNG woman. Natalee proved that travelling to a foreign country involves risk and danger, especially when it is mixed with copious amounts of alcohol. RIP Natalee.Anthony22 (talk) 11:32, 5 August 2019 (UTC);

I like the compromise with eighteen year old American women. CookieMonster755✉ 04:25, 19 August 2019 (UTC)

Given names Natalee

No one seems to notice the occurance of the givenname Ann and Holloway pretty much do seem to match Holiday and Inn to me. Isn't that a little bit awkward here?

Please don't clutter the article TP's with such tripe. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 50.111.5.65 (talk) 20:09, 30 May 2020 (UTC)

Footnote 26

Footnote 26 seems like a disreputable source. It also contradicts the statement in the introduction - and global opinion - that the case is unsolved. Nelsonbt (talk) 13:22, 12 April 2020 (UTC)

It isn't unsolved though. It's pretty much certain that Van der Sloot killed her. They got him to confess in private for christs sake. Prinsgezinde (talk) 12:39, 12 February 2021 (UTC)

"Pretty much certain" is "unsolved". Britmax (talk) 13:01, 12 February 2021 (UTC)

This article is not like others I've edited, so not entirely sure where to put that van der Sloot is due to be extradited, but it should be put in, as he is the prime suspect

See here: https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/suspect-natalee-holloway-disappearance-extradited-us-rcna83884. Phil of rel (talk) 16:27, 11 May 2023 (UTC)

Title Change

Joran Van Der Sloot has recently admitted that he killed Natalie Holloway. Therefore, it may be possible to change the title of the page to "Death of Natalie Holloway" or "Murder of Natalie Holloway" since she is likely no longer missing. TheJay123 (talk) 15:48, 18 October 2023 (UTC)

He has made numerous conflicting confessions over the years. Let's wait a bit. SQB (talk) 16:33, 18 October 2023 (UTC)

Consequences of Joran van der Sloot's latest confession

Privately, yeah, I think he did it. But this confession is the latest one in a long string of conflicting statements and confessions throughout the years. One of which was the basis of the current extortion case against him, which is the reason for his extradition from Peru. Note that this confession was carefully crafted to look like manslaughter, on which the statute of limitations has already run out on Aruba. And he can't be prosecuted for it in the USA.

So he stands to gain a lesser sentence in the current (extortion) case against him, without actually losing anything by confessing.

Let's wait until we have more than just a confirmation that he confessed. There will likely follow an official statement. SQB (talk) 19:49, 18 October 2023 (UTC)

I lean towards agreeing with this (over changing the article's title prematurely), although based on the contents of his confession, it sounds less like manslaughter, and more like a murder committed during the commission of an attempted sexual assault.
You have a great point about the numerous conflicting statements, confessions, and lies throughout the years, as well as the fact that the United States cannot prosecute him for murder. The article reflects this, and it is difficult to tell what the truth is when so many of his statements seem to follow what is most self-serving at any particular moment.
Either way, because "Murder" is a word with a strict legal definition, I would think "Killing of" or "Death of" would be an OK change, but only after an official statement comes out. Afddiary (talk) 01:09, 19 October 2023 (UTC)

Lead too long?

Currently, the lead repeats a lot of the sections below about her disappearance and the search, arrests, and so on. Should we trim it back to 4-5 shorter paragraphs, detailing who she is, when and under what circumstances she disappeared, what her current status is (missing presumed dead) and that JvdS is the prime suspect who has recently confessed.SQB (talk) 14:04, 20 October 2023 (UTC)

The lead is supposed to summarize the article. So naturally, everything will be repeated in the sections below. TarkusABtalk/contrib 15:34, 20 October 2023 (UTC)

Requested move 18 October 2023

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: not moved. There is consensus against moving to the Murder of ... title, with support instead for Killing of ... However, several users oppose on the basis that the article is mainly concerned with the disappearance, and giving this due weight the current title is appropriate. (closed by non-admin page mover) Polyamorph (talk) 09:42, 29 October 2023 (UTC)

Disappearance of Natalee Holloway → Murder of Natalee Holloway – Now that it is known that Joran van der Sloot indeed murdered Natalee Holloway, would it be more appropriate for this article to be called "Murder of Natalee Holloway" since it wasn't just a "disappearance" as previously believed? Paul Vaurie (talk) 16:32, 18 October 2023 (UTC)

Here is a source confirming that Joran van der Sloot killed murdered Holloway. Paul Vaurie (talk) 16:34, 18 October 2023 (UTC)
  • Oppose for now. Too early. As can be read in the article, he has made numerous statements and confessions over the years. Let's wait for something more substantial. Edited to add: let's not forget this is a plea deal. SQB (talk) 16:36, 18 October 2023 (UTC)
  • Move to Killing of Natalee Holloway per WP:DEATHS. We now have reliable sources reporting that he has officially confessed to killing her on the record. The fact that he has confessed as part of a plea deal is inconsequential. He has freely admitted his actions to a court. That's all we need to change the title and there is no reason to delay moving the article. It is not Wikipedia's place to question his admission. Rreagan007 (talk) 17:09, 18 October 2023 (UTC)
    He has freely admitted his guilt to a court, but the admission is without negative consequences since (as I understand it) he cannot be prosecuted for the murder in the USA, while he stands to gain a reduction in sentence in the case he ''is'' being tried for. SQB (talk) 19:28, 18 October 2023 (UTC)
  • Wait - murder is a specific legal word. At the moment he has confirmed that he killed her, per news reports. Rather than change the article title more than once, let the final conviction be settled, so that the article can be properly named either "Killing of" or "Murder of", per WP:DEATHS#Flowchart. Probably a short wait, given the activity in court already today. Jmg38 (talk) 18:27, 18 October 2023 (UTC)
Against - but change to "Killing of" per flowchart. Reading more on today's confession, this may well be stranded in the "Killing of" category, as the proffer letter allows him to reach a plea agreement on the associated extortion charges without his confession of killing her being used against him in court. Over 18 years since her (now confirmed) killing, and authorities have not found evidence to charge him regarding her death (which could then, possibly, change this to "Murder of"), but a breakthrough at some future date could lead to another change of the article title at that time. Jmg38 (talk) 19:20, 18 October 2023 (UTC)
  • Move to Killing of Natalee Holloway per Jmg38 – van der Sloot, as part of a plea agreement with the U.S. attorney's office, confessed to killing Holloway. Murder is a type of homicide that requires a conviction in a court of law, which has not happened in this case in the U.S. or any other jurisdiction and it would be WP:CRYSTALBALL to speculate whether that will happen or not. However, it is clear that van der Sloot confessed to killing Holloway per the NYT and therefore the page should be moved to "killing" because this is no longer a disappearance and the current title is inaccurate. This situation is similar to that of Killing of Gabby Petito. cookie monster 755 20:59, 18 October 2023 (UTC)
  • Move to Killing of Natalee Holloway per WP:DEATHS. estar8806 (talk) ★ 22:40, 18 October 2023 (UTC)
  • Move to Killing per Cookie Monster. Van Der Sloot has not been convicted in a court of law for homicide in the Holloway case. He has only confessed to her killing.Canuck89 (Talk to me) or visit my user page 22:23, October 18, 2023 (UTC)
  • Leave as is. This article always has been strange, because it focuses on an investigation that basically went nowhere and the media sensation involved as everything went nowhere. It really didn't focus on the disappearance per se, because we knew nothing about it. Same for the killing: we've got a couple of sentences about a rebuffed sexual advance, and that's barely going to make a dent in the lede. The article is about the investigation and media frenzy, and that investigation and frenzy was about a disappearance. I don't feel strongly about it, but I don't see a strong argument for a title change. —Kww(talk) 05:47, 19 October 2023 (UTC)
    If the article is about the investigation and media frenzy, then disapperance doesn't fit either for the scope. Support Killing of Natalee Holloway. PhotographyEdits (talk) 09:08, 19 October 2023 (UTC)
  • Oppose I agree with Kww. Changing the title to "Killing of..." puts an undue emphasis on the killing act when the article isn't really about the killing at all. The article is about her disappearance and the years of searching for her and investigating. In years down the line, the title could be changed depending on how sources change their approach to the subject. TarkusABtalk/contrib 07:52, 19 October 2023 (UTC)
  • Strong Oppose. The text of the article is in fact mostly about the disappearance, and at this point in time we have no reason to believe the tesimony of van der Sloot to the point of even assuming Holloway was murdered, or in the date in question. If there is a trial and a conviction, perhaps we revisit. DarkSide830 (talk) 14:54, 19 October 2023 (UTC)
  • Oppose for now - too soon, let the sources settle a bit. CNN called it a killing and murder both in the same article. We're not on a deadline.⋆｡°✩🎃✩°｡⋆ Isaidnoway (talk) 16:45, 19 October 2023 (UTC)
Are you saying that we should wait before deciding if the title should be "Murder of..." or "Killing of..."? Because our guidelines are pretty clear that between those 2 it should be "Killing of..." Rreagan007 (talk) 16:35, 25 October 2023 (UTC)
Support the alternative with Killing in the title. Killuminator (talk) 18:11, 28 October 2023 (UTC)
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
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