Talk:Demographics of Belfast

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Requested move 1 February 2024

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: all except Demography of the Roman Empire have consensus to move. theleekycauldron (talk • she/her) 21:32, 9 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

– "Demography" is a field of study; "Demographics" are the statistics reflecting the characteristics of a place examined in this field. We have 348 articles at "Demographics of" titles, and these 26 at "Demography of" titles, so I propose we move these to conform with the much larger group, and with correct usage. BD2412 T 02:01, 1 February 2024 (UTC) — Relisting. — Amakuru (talk) 12:54, 9 February 2024 (UTC) — Relisting. 🌺 Cremastra (talk) 22:14, 22 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Weak support: I actually think that a stronger case could be made that "demography" is a better title—thinking of words with a similar distinction, I believe we usually use the name of a science for articles or sections about what it tells us about something; for instance, "geography of Scotland". "Demographics" is common in English, but I can't think of many similar words where "-graphics" is widely used (the first one I can think of is "infographics", which seems to be neologism, although "infography" exists). But there's no obvious reason to keep 26 at "demography" and 14 times that many at "demographics". Since it's unlikely that there'd be a project-wide move of the other 348 to "demography", and consistency is logical here, this move makes sense. That said, it won't really hurt anything if some articles keep "demography". P Aculeius (talk) 12:16, 1 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Note: WikiProject Northern Ireland has been notified of this discussion. Vanderwaalforces (talk) 14:51, 1 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Note: WikiProject Ireland has been notified of this discussion. Vanderwaalforces (talk) 14:52, 1 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I see a past discussion at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject UK geography/Archive_16#"Demography"_being_changed_to_"Demographics"_as_a_section_heading (2014). I've left a courtesy notice at that WikiProject. On reviewing the arguments made there (e.g. WP:ENGVAR), I don't find them too convincing, so I'm leaning towards support at the moment. Adumbrativus (talk) 05:42, 8 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
See also an acrimonious 2023 discussion (featuring a now-blocked editor with a tendency to SHOUT) at Talk:Rochdale#Demography_2, with a brief reprise at Talk:Rochdale#Demography versus Demographics (but the "previous Demography section of talk page" mentioned was not about terminology) . PamD
Oppose moves: this seems to be a matter of WP:ENGVAR, as WP:WikiProject UK geography/How to write about settlements specifies a section heading of "~~Demographics~~" "Demography". I think the analogy with "Academics" mentioned elsewhere is significant: in British English it the plural of "academic", a person; in American English it seems to mean "information about the academic aspects of an institution". Note that if we moved the 26 articles listed above, we would need, for consistency, to change the section heading for thousands of articles on UK cities, counties, parishes, etc. PamD 08:38, 8 February 2024 (UTC) Horrible typo corrected! PamD 18:55, 8 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Indeed, except that there's maybe a typo there: WP:WikiProject UK geography/How to write about settlements (WP:UKCITIES, etc) has "Demography", not "Demographics", and has for many years. It also has "Geography" not "Geographics". :) NebY (talk) 17:52, 8 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@NebY Aaargh, yes, indeed, a key typo! Sorry about that. Thanks for noticing. PamD 18:53, 8 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@PamD: I don't think this is an WP:ENGVAR matter at all. For example, Population UK, which uses British English spelling, has a section header titled "Demographics of London". A comparable case would be "Religious studies", which is the name of the field of study. If we had an article titled "Religious studies of London" we would expect it to be about studies of religion conducted in London. If we had an article titled "Religious studies in London", we would expect it to be about the availability of religious studies programs in London. An article on the actual statistics of what percentage of people follow what religions would be (and in fact is) at Religion in London. BD2412 T 20:49, 8 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
From the Oxford English Dictionary##:
Demography:

1.a. The study of human populations, esp. the study of statistics, such as numbers of births and deaths, the incidence of disease, or rates of migration, which illustrate the changing size or composition of populations over time.

1.b. The composition of a particular human population.

Demographics:

1: The study of the human population and its composition; (now typically in advertising and market research) spec. (originally U.S.) the study of statistical data concerning the composition or characteristics of a television or other audience, the market for a product, etc. Cf. demography n. 1a. Rare before the development of the spec. sense.

2: Originally U.S. Chiefly in advertising and market research: statistical data relating to a human population and particular groups within it; the composition or characteristics of such a population or group, esp. a television or other audience, the market for a product, etc. Cf. demography n. 1b.

I think this supports the idea of an ENGVAR issue. PamD 23:08, 8 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The sense conveyed by these articles is literally "statistical data relating to a human population and particular groups within it". BD2412 T 23:39, 8 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Which is "Originally U.S." and "Chiefly in advertising and market research". Wikipedia is not "advertising and market research". PamD 07:39, 13 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
There is no other sense that covers "statistical data", which is what these articles basically are. Also, originally U.S. is just a statement of origin, not of current use. It is readily possible to find UK-sourced uses of "Demographics" (e.g., The Guardian, "Back to the future: taking a fresh look at the demographics of youth" (2013); The Guardian, "Demographics of the Lord of the Rings" (2012); Teacher Education for the Changing Demographics of Schooling (Edinburgh, 2017). BD2412 T 16:24, 13 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Specifically oppose renaming Demography of the Roman Empire. The study of ancient populations is extremely challenging and that of the Roman Empire's no exception - even though they gave us the word "census" they left us little else to go on. It requires the meticulous use of scraps of evidence and remains a much contested work in progress at every level, with consequences for other fields of study such as of slavery or the economy. This permeates our article and we would serve our readers well if we discussed the methodologies even more there. Whether the rest of our naming continues to follow BrEng or shifts to AmEng on the basis that articles do not discuss the study of populations we should not restrict this one. (I'm inclined to oppose such restriction in other cases too, most of all at the national level.) NebY (talk) 18:24, 8 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
- Now this is a reasonable objection. BD2412 T 22:56, 8 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
- I, too, agree with this objection and oppose renaming Demography of the Roman Empire. Srnec (talk) 21:38, 12 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Support

Dencoolast33 (talk) 17:20, 13 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Support all except Demography of the Roman Empire per above. ENGVAR doesn't seem to apply per sources above. Chessrat ^{(talk, contributions)} 23:27, 19 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Support per WP:TITLECON. Scorpions1325 (talk) 20:00, 28 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Support per nom.--Esprit15d • talk • contribs 23:29, 29 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Support all except Demography of the Roman Empire per Chessrat. History6042 (talk) 02:18, 4 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.