Talk:Albania/Archive 12

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Archive 13

Etymology

The linked article on etymology contains a sourced statement of an ultimate connection with the Indo-European *alb- 'hill, mountain' present in Alps. This is arguably the gist of the etymology article and one what expects to find eventually when searching for the ultimate etymology of a geo/ethnonym - a derivation from a non-geo/ethnonym - so I think it would be appropriate for it to be present in the summary on the etymology here, too. Quoting:

Linguists think that the element *alb- in the root word, is an Indo-European term for a type of mountainous topography, meaning "hill, mountain", also present in Alps. --82.137.115.143 (talk) 22:48, 21 January 2021 (UTC)

History part mistake

It is cited in the history part that the treaty of San Stefano disregarded Albanians, giving lands with majority Albanian populations to their Slavic and Greek neighbors. Well, in fact, Greece gained no land AT ALL from the treaty of San Stefano, and only later in the Berlin Conference of 1881 gained the region of Thessalia + the prefecture of Arta, which were majority Greek anyway. So this part should be corrected. LightningLighting (talk) 23:10, 23 January 2021 (UTC)

A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion

The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:

• Bilingual road sign directing to Glloboçeni, written in both Macedonian and Albanian.jpg

Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. —Community Tech bot (talk) 09:22, 16 March 2021 (UTC)

Change map

The map should show Albania's location within Europe. it should also include Kosovo with hatched borders as to avoid Serbian or Kosovan POV. Durraz0 (talk) 15:59, 31 May 2021 (UTC)

The map also needs to display Albania in Europe. It's hardly visible on a global scale map.--Maleschreiber (talk) 22:07, 2 June 2021 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 25 June 2021: Transport should be moved from Economy to Infrastructure

My request would be to move a chapter into the right subject, as it is in the wrong place now. Currently, the Wikipedia-article about Albania is treating transport as chapter 5.4 under the subject on economy, which makes the table of content look like this:

5 Economy

   5.1 Primary sector
   5.2 Secondary sector
   5.3 Tertiary sector
   5.4 Transport

6 Infrastructure

   6.1 Education
   6.2 Health
   6.3 Energy
   6.4 Technology

When I think of infrastructure, transport is the first thing that springs to my mind. Therefore, I would like to move chapter 5.4 into the Infrastructure subject, where it would become chapter 6.1, moving the following chapters down and automatically renumbering them with one number up:

5 Economy

   5.1 Primary sector
   5.2 Secondary sector
   5.3 Tertiary sector

6 Infrastructure

   6.1 Transport
   6.2 Education
   6.3 Health
   6.4 Energy
   6.5 Technology

Furthermore, I would suggest moderators to consider whether this level of protection is really necessary for this Wikipedia-article. I don't know if edit wars have broken out on this pages. If so, protection could be useful, but it violates Wikipedia's policy that every one can contribute. 82.173.160.29 (talk) 14:27, 25 June 2021 (UTC)

 Not done: requests for decreases to the page protection level should be directed to the protecting admin or to Wikipedia:Requests for page protection if the protecting admin is not active or has declined the request. Melmann 09:31, 30 June 2021 (UTC)

 Not done for now: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the {{edit extended-protected}} template. Melmann 09:32, 30 June 2021 (UTC)

Add Speaker of Albania position in lead (infobox)

Speaker of Albania is the third most important position in Albanian politics after the President and Prime Minister, also is the direct successor of the President. I've seen all other countries wiki pages mention thier Speaker in the lead (infobox) while in Albania page not. Speaker should be placed below the Prime Minister and above "Kuvendi"(assembly). Here the sources: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Speaker_of_the_Parliament_of_Albania (Wiki page) https://www.parlament.al/Strukture/Kryetari (Official website)

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 18:01, 13 July 2021 (UTC)

I provided sources and gave a better explaination.

 Question: So you just want that added to the infobox? ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 13:21, 14 July 2021 (UTC)

Yes, btw I'm not sure if the name should be "Speaker" or "Chairman of the Assembly" or "Speaker of the Assembly". One of these three should be fine. I guess Speaker of the Assembly is fine.2A02:587:E233:EA00:4517:319E:998A:27A2 (talk) 19:24, 28 July 2021 (UTC)
Notifying @ScottishFinnishRadish.  𝗙𝗼𝗿𝗺𝗮𝗹𝗗𝘂𝗱𝗲𝘁𝗮𝗹𝗸 07:57, 4 August 2021 (UTC)

 Done This should be all set. Look good? ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 10:46, 4 August 2021 (UTC)

Caucausian Albania

Not to be confused with Caucausian Albania before in ancient times 49.150.47.250 (talk) 06:21, 16 November 2021 (UTC)

Updating

Economy and population needs to be updated to 2021 report/estimate. 2A02:587:E209:8200:B1EF:937C:78FA:3C7F (talk) 08:18, 12 December 2021 (UTC) I mean data. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A02:587:E209:8200:B1EF:937C:78FA:3C7F (talk) 08:38, 12 December 2021 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 30 November 2021

In:
{{About|the country|other uses|Albania (disambiguation){{!}}Albania}}
Change:
Albania (disambiguation){{!}}Albania
to:
Albania
so that it displays:

This page is about the country. For other uses, see Albania (disambiguation).

Faster than Thunder (talk) 03:32, 30 November 2021 (UTC)

 Done You're correct, that target shouldn't have been piped as it was. Largoplazo (talk) 08:32, 30 November 2021 (UTC)

Only pipe a disambiguation link if the disambiguation actually redirects to the display text. Faster than Thunder (talk) 22:17, 19 December 2021 (UTC)

Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment

This article is or was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Fbarolli.

Above undated message substituted from Template:Dashboard.wikiedu.org assignment by PrimeBOT (talk) 13:44, 16 January 2022 (UTC)

Infobox

I propose to change the text in the infobox when it states:

• 1st Republic of

  Albania

• 2nd Republic of

  Albania

• 3rd Republic of

  Albania

• 4th Republic of

  Albania

to simply

• 1st Republic
• 2nd Republic
• 3rd Republic
• 4th Republic

It's only obviously Albania. 2A02:587:E21B:CC00:4C6:78A9:D7E4:B2CC (talk) 03:51, 19 January 2022 (UTC)

Chronological discrepancy

It says "In his history written in the 10th century, the Byzantine historian Michael Attaliates was the first to refer to Albanoi as having taken part in a revolt against Constantinople in 1043"

The 10th century is the years 900-999. How could someone have written about an event in 1043 during the 10th century? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2600:8807:3D04:1100:2DB5:1E2E:6627:B2 (talk) 04:42, 1 March 2022 (UTC)

About the President

The new president takes office at 24/7/2022 meaning next month. Until then Ilir Meta continues his duties. 2A02:587:E20C:8000:30FB:F804:3563:9953 (talk) 13:38, 7 June 2022 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 19 August 2022

In the 'Foreign relations' section it says "They country took on membership for the United Nations Economic and Social Council" I think this is a typo. It should be changed to "The country took on membership for the United Nations Economic and Social Council" LJFIN2 (talk) 16:12, 19 August 2022 (UTC)

 Done ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 16:22, 19 August 2022 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 29 July 2022

QaifarShqiptari (talk) 11:37, 29 July 2022 (UTC)

Update 2022 Albanian gdp

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 12:42, 29 July 2022 (UTC)

I think s/he is asking to update the gdb. S.G ReDark (talk) 00:54, 16 August 2022 (UTC)

I am asking to update the gdp of Albania to the 2022 gdp QaifarShqiptari (talk) 21:10, 21 August 2022 (UTC)

Statistics

Statistics in the infobox need to be updated to the latest (2022/2021) estimates. S.G ReDark (talk) 15:03, 9 July 2022 (UTC)

Can someone do it? S.G ReDark (talk) 00:55, 16 August 2022 (UTC)

Which of the numbers are you talking about? Can you supply a reliable source that has these numbers? Largoplazo (talk) 03:37, 16 August 2022 (UTC)

I'm talking about GDP (PPP) Total and Per Capita, GDP (Nominal) Total and Per Capital, Gini and HDI. Currently the statistics are from 2019 and 2020 (estimates). I found some of the latest data but I'm on mobile so I'm not sure if it's actually data, here: https://www.ceicdata.com/en/indicator/albania/gdp-per-capita#:~:text=What%20was%20Albania's%20GDP%20per,5%2C349.195%20USD%20in%20Dec%202020. https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/NY.GDP.MKTP.KD.ZG?locations=AL S.G ReDark (talk) 15:08, 16 August 2022 (UTC)

The first source has only per-capita nominal GDP, and the second source has nothing to replace the existing numbers with. The first sources does also have a figure for total nominal GDP but it's for a different month. We should wait till we have sources that provide a coherent snapshot. Largoplazo (talk) 22:46, 21 August 2022 (UTC)

Sorry, just did a quick Google search. I don't know much about statistics myself. S.G ReDark (talk) 00:41, 22 August 2022 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 22 August 2022

The population of Albania is 2.793.592 as of 1st January 2022. Souurce: Official Albanian statistics: http://www.instat.gov.al/al/temat/treguesit-demografik%C3%AB-dhe-social%C3%AB/popullsia/publikimet/2022/popullsia-e-shqip%C3%ABris%C3%AB-1-janar-2022/ Miran9710 (talk) 11:10, 22 August 2022 (UTC)

 Done Largoplazo (talk) 11:55, 22 August 2022 (UTC)

The real name must be (Skipia) Shqipja

The real name must be (Skipia) Shqipja ErmalSkipia (talk) 23:16, 24 August 2022 (UTC)

I'm not sure what you mean by it must be. The fact is that it isn't the name of that country in English. Largoplazo (talk) 23:38, 24 August 2022 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 2 September 2022

Albania is a place in the USA and also are known for their albanian people. 168.99.13.151 (talk) 18:48, 2 September 2022 (UTC)

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. Are you refering to one of the Albanys? --N8_wilson 🔔 19:44, 2 September 2022 (UTC)

Arbania

Arbania redirects to this article, but the word is not included in the article. From investigation it appears to be a historical name for some part of the Balkan region, but I'm not sure if it corresponds to modern Albania or not? Thryduulf (talk) 10:29, 9 October 2022 (UTC)

Names of the Albanians and Albania might be a better target for that redirect. --Local hero ^talk 00:26, 10 October 2022 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 8 December 2022

The article, in Albania's geography, states that, on the country's shorelines, the Adriatic Sea is to the Northeast and the Ionian Sea to the Southeast. This is incorrect....it should be to the Northwest and Southwest. Please edit and correct. 2600:4040:2DB3:D900:D175:A08A:6083:9DBA (talk) 05:30, 8 December 2022 (UTC)

 Not done: It already does say northwest and southwest, not northeast or southeast. Largoplazo (talk) 11:41, 8 December 2022 (UTC)

Religion Estimates and Census 2011

The religion estimates on the page are from the 2011 national census. That census was recognised as problematic by those within Albania and abroad, including organisations like the Council of Europe, religious leaders and others. It would be nice to have a footnote/* to note this for readers. Virgilanthony (talk) 19:46, 9 December 2022 (UTC)

Whoever removed the efn on Kosovo

without discussion or comment should probably get a time out or ban from editing the page. It's fine if the commentary could be improved, but don't blank it without running it past everyone first. — LlywelynII 04:01, 10 December 2022 (UTC)

Speaking of efns

The Shqipëri/Shqipëria in the lead doesn't need the Albanian IPA. English speakers won't bother figuring out how to do a /ɾ/ instead of an /r/ anyway, and the curious ones can be linked or head over to Wiktionary. Hell, even the English IPA makes no sense to people processed through the US education system—which is most native English speakers and the largest chunk of Wikipedians—and is unsightly and not particularly helpful or necessary. It can be here, sure, but it's probably better and more helpful in a reorganized #Name section, which is always more helpful than #Etymology anyway.

On the other hand, the Shqipëri/Shqipëria in the lead ABSOLUTELY needs an explanation in the efn about wtf is going on with Albanian definiteness. English speakers process names as definite without grammatically marking them; French speakers process names as definite and grammatically mark them. Albanian apparently has some issue within its grammar where the specific and only existing Shqipëria for some incomprehensible reason gets processed as an indefinite "Shqipëri" some of the time. A explain that to people. It'll apply to every Albanian term for the rest of the page. B explain what the concept is behind the grammatical idea of an "uncountable-and-specific-but-somehow-grammatically-indefinite Albania", because it will make 0 sense to most visitors to the page without a quick overview. — LlywelynII 04:07, 10 December 2022 (UTC)

Folk etymology

The two terms are popularly interpreted as "Land of the Eagles" and "Children of the Eagles".

It's fine that this has 2 pretty good sources but it obviously doesn't mean that, isn't considered that, and doesn't work like that in English. Provide a gloss of whatever Albanian/Turkish/Greek/Slavic/&c. form gave rise to the idea. Probably best to mark it as a folk etymology directly or via a link for the words "popularly interpreted". — LlywelynII 04:16, 10 December 2022 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 11 February 2023

Approximately 3,500 different species of plants can be found in Albania which refers principally to a Mediterranean and Eurasian character. The country maintains a vibrant tradition of herbal and medicinal practices (This links to the incorrect article, linking to a Doctor Who show rather than the page on medicinal practices). At the minimum 300 plants growing locally are used in the preparation of herbs and medicines.[158] The trees within the forests are primarily made up of fir, oak, beech and pine. Julianos The Wise (talk) 00:50, 11 February 2023 (UTC)

 Fixed – small jars tc 11:24, 11 February 2023 (UTC)

A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion

The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:

• Major General Bajram Begaj.png

Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. —Community Tech bot (talk) 16:38, 22 February 2023 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request

In the intro, please add that Albania is located in the Balkan peninsula. 2600:100C:A21C:E44E:9CFD:64F3:D2BB:A3AA (talk) 07:49, 26 February 2023 (UTC)

 Done though I wrote "Balkans" as that's the name of the article and per that article's commentary that it really isn't a peninsula even though it's commonly referred to as one. Largoplazo (talk) 11:44, 26 February 2023 (UTC)

Since it got reverted, please add a sentence in the intro that states that Albania is located in the Balkan peninsula.2600:100C:A21C:E44E:8DBA:2280:EBCA:EF37 (talk) 22:29, 26 February 2023 (UTC)

User:Iaof2017, could you please elaborate on your reversion of my having located Albania, per the above request, in the Balkans? Your edit summary reads "as in other balkan countries articles", but there's no general principle on Wikipedia that a given edit may either be made to every similar article or to none at all. Largoplazo (talk) 23:37, 26 February 2023 (UTC)

 Done M.Bitton (talk) 01:36, 2 March 2023 (UTC)

Orthographic projection

I noticed that Albania is one of the few countries that doesn't have an orthographic projection as the displayed image. I found the image on Wikipedia Commons here : https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Albania_(orthographic_projection).svg

I was wondering if it could be put in instead of the current image, just so it matches all the other country wikis. Thanks! Wkpdsrnm2023 (talk) 00:50, 24 March 2023 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 7 April 2023

78.70.177.120 (talk) 19:44, 7 April 2023 (UTC)

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. Tollens (talk) 21:12, 7 April 2023 (UTC)

Update to migration figures

Given there has been a lot of coverage of migration from Albania to other countries in Europe in recent months in international news media [1] [2] [3], so I've made an update. Lots more could be added, so I may ask for assistance at WP:COUNTRIES if necessary. Khirurg (talk) 22:47, 24 April 2023 (UTC)

"Proto-Greeks"

At, first it is an outdated theory, with mostly sources that don't pass 1990. The only source that these inhabitants spoke a Proto-Greek language (which is irrelevant anyway) is Nicholas Geoffrey Lemprière Hammond. Studies: Further studies on various topics. A.M. Hakkert, 1993, p. 231. He says following:

The main reservoir of the Greek speakers was central Albania and Epirus

Really? Greek speakers? He doesn't mention any Proto- or Pre- prefixes.

Illyrians, whose main habitat was in the area now called Bosnia

That's incorrect. One of the most securely Illyrian tribes are the Ardiaei, which lived in Albania and Montenegro. Not to forget the Taulantii, etc. This shows that these sources are in fact outdated and can't be used for such a prominent article. AlexBachmann (talk) 21:17, 25 May 2023 (UTC)

I could see a slim case for cutting proto as the sources just say Greek. They mean proto-Greek for this period of course when they say Greek, but that's what's written in the sources so I can see an argument to match them precisely. Straw man arguments about the location of individual tribes don't invalidate sources, especially when you're not providing any of your own and are just stating that the theory is outdatedGugrak (talk) 05:45, 26 May 2023 (UTC) Blocked sock. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 16:39, 7 June 2023 (UTC)

If an author can't locate a tribe that may be relevant to this hypothesis, there are grounds to dismiss the source. If you could provide a newer source, it will have weight in the article. If not, this will go to the ANI because, as you may know, this article is highly-viewed. AlexBachmann (talk) 19:57, 26 May 2023 (UTC)

The author isn't discussing the location of specific tribes. There are three sources already. They're not even particularly old in the grand scheme of things. You are the one that needs to produce sources discussing an alternative here, not OR and WP:JDLI Gugrak (talk) 00:53, 27 May 2023 (UTC) Blocked sock. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 16:39, 7 June 2023 (UTC)

@Gugrak: The section which you reverted is based on outdated theories based on the work of N. G. L. Hammond. The consensus is explained in detail in the relevant article (Proto-Greek language) where you can consult relevant bibliography. The relevant article doesn't claim that Proto-Greek first moved in the Balkans in BA Albania and Montenegro, hence this article will not claim something which not even the main article about the subject claims. In short, Proto-Greek likely moved southwards via Bulgaria towards Macedonia, later towards a part of Epirus and Thessaly from where it ultimately moved southwards to its position in the Mycenaean era. Hammond's view was that Proto-Greek moved southwards via the western Balkans and could be identified with tumuli in Montenegro and Albania. This theory never found much support even when Hammond was very active academically. Today, we even have aDNA studies about exact tumuli sites which Hammond mentioned and they're linked to Cetina culture and other similar cultures, but have no correspondence to BA Mycenaeans.--Maleschreiber (talk) 00:57, 27 May 2023 (UTC)

Bronze- and Iron- Age tumuli in northern and central Albania, down to Lofkënd and Dukat, in present-day scholarship are affiliated with the culture of the Indo-European people who were called 'Illyrians' by the ancients, for instance: Papadopoulos, John K. (2019). "Greek protohistories". World Archaeology. Routledge. doi:10.1080/00438243.2019.1568294. ISSN 1470-1375. "The modern meaning of protohistory can vary from the study of a culture just prior to its earliest recorded history, to a period that occupies a liminal space between prehistory and history. More often than not, the term is applied to peoples who did not record their own history. In excavating an Illyrian Late Bronze–Early Iron Age burial tumulus (ca. 1400–800 BC) at Lofkënd, in what is today Albania (Figure 2), my colleagues and I were confronted by the problem: there were no Illyrian/Albanian historians or authors in Archaic and Classical antiquity; indeed, what we know of the Illyrians, including the names of their many tribes, comes from Greek authors (Papadopoulos et al. 2014)." – Βατο (talk) 11:12, 27 May 2023 (UTC)

With regard to Hammond's outdated Mycenean migration hypothesis that has been included into the article, Onnis, Elisabetta (2008). Modalità di scambio tra il mondo miceneo e i territori dell'Albania e dell'Epiro". Vol. 9. p. 11. {{cite book}}: |journal= ignored (help): "Tale opera fu elaborata da N. G. L. Hammond in seguito alla sua attività di ricerca sul territorio e agli scavi fino ad allora portati avanti, realizzando un lavoro ancora oggi punto di partenza per lo studio delle più antiche relazioni con il mondo egeo. Se tale analisi particolareggiata risulta, pertanto, fondamentale, la teoria migrazionista relativa all’origine dei Micenei, elaborata considerando i rinvenimenti dei tumuli albanesi, trovò, al contrario, scarso seguito in campo archeologico e venne presto smentita". ["This work was elaborated by N. G. L. Hammond following his research activity on the territory and the excavations carried out until then, realizing a work that is still a starting point for the study of the most ancient relationships with the Aegean world. While such detailed analysis is therefore fundamental, the migration theory relating to the origin of the Mycenaeans, elaborated by considering the findings of the Albanian tumuli, found, on the contrary, little following in the archaeological field and was soon disproved."]. Today no scholar considers that Mycenean civilization was established by a population that migrated from Albania to Mycenae. Much archaeological and archaeogenetic research has been carried out in the last years, the article should be updated with present-day well-established academic assertions, replacing outdated 20th century speculations. – Βατο (talk) 11:44, 27 May 2023 (UTC)

Selective use of images

In the past there was an agreement to have an image of a Greek language sign, and a Macedonian language sign [4]. As of today, it seems one user has decided to unilaterally end this agreement, and simply remove the Greek language sign and only keep the Macedonian language sign. The only reasoning given is that the Macedonian language sign is "more representative" [5], despite the fact that Greek is the second most-spoken language in the country. That makes no sense, and seems to be just an excuse to remove the Greek language sign. Khirurg (talk) 16:38, 6 June 2023 (UTC)

No wonder you accuse others of wanting to remove content just because it is related to Greeks. You have tried to add so much Greek-related stuff in UNDUE fashion to the Albania article, that you judge edits only as "add Greek stuff" and "remove Greek stuff". At one point in time the Demographics section talked about Greeks who are less than 2% of population more than it talked about all other groups combined, including Albanians themselves. Anyways, I am not here to discuss your assumptions and past behavior. The WP:SANDWICH issue is a real one, not my justification. Just look at how the section appeared on the phone before my edit. Ktrimi991 (talk) 17:27, 6 June 2023 (UTC)

There ways to resolve image sandwiching, such as my latest edit. I don't see any sandwiching now. The real question is why your edit privileged one language over another, which you still haven't answered. Khirurg (talk) 17:32, 6 June 2023 (UTC)

Your edit solved nothing. I explained it in one of the edit summaries, it seems you rushed to revert without reading it. Also, you have already made 3 reverts (readded the Goranxi pic 3 times). Ktrimi991 (talk) 17:39, 6 June 2023 (UTC)

What on earth are you talking about? It is your edit that causes sandwiching [6] (which doesn't seem to bother you as long as it does not involve the Greek language), and my version resolves it [7]. Anyway, since it seems to old tag-team is still very much active, I will seek outside intervention. No way you are getting away with just removing the Greek language sign and keeping only the Macedonian language sign. You have 3 reverts too btw. Khirurg (talk) 17:48, 6 June 2023 (UTC)

Greek, Greeks and Greece is mentioned almost one tenth as much as Albania, Albanian and Albanians in an article about Albania. Greeks are definitely well represented in this article about Albania. other minorities are definetly not being "privilege". WP:SANDWICH is also an issue here. Durraz0 (talk) 17:42, 6 June 2023 (UTC)

Yes, your revert causes image sandwiching in the Language section. Khirurg (talk) 17:49, 6 June 2023 (UTC)

The inclusion of two or more pictures depicting road signs is redundant and clutters the article. It is of greater value to include a single image in which the national language, a minority language, and foreign language are shown - as is the case with the sign from Pustec. And as has been presented above, Greeks and Greek-related issues are more 'privileged' and represented in the article (itself on Albania) than other minority groups. Lezhjani1444 (talk) 18:22, 6 June 2023 (UTC)

Agreed. Ktrimi991 (talk) 19:29, 6 June 2023 (UTC)

There are two officially recognized minority languages, so there should one sign for each language. Anything else is POV. But it's nice at least to see the real reason for the removal of the Greek language sign being revealed ("too much Greek"), as opposed to the previous excuses (sandwiching). Khirurg (talk) 19:30, 6 June 2023 (UTC)

Oh please. You tried to remove the Macedonian sign, it was not an issue for you to have only the Greek one. Albania has 6 or 7 officially recognized minority languages, we will not have a pic for each of them. This article is not a photo gallery. Ktrimi991 (talk) 19:37, 6 June 2023 (UTC)

I didn't remove anything, you did. Greek is by far the most spoken minority language, so if there is to be only one sign, it should be for Greek. In any case, I am in favor of both signs. Why does the Greek sign bother you so much? Khirurg (talk) 19:54, 6 June 2023 (UTC)

You removed the Macedonian and English signs pic [8]. Removing Macedonian for you was not an issue. Greek being more spoken than Macedonian is not a good argument. Apart from Macedonian that pic also has English; having 2 languages makes it more illustrative. Furthermore, Greeks have a pic of their own in the article (Apollonia the Greek city as said in its caption). Let the Macedonian minority have a pic too. Why does the Greek sign bother you so much? It does not bother me for being Greek, though I take note that you have been trying for years to add as much Greek-related stuff as possible to the article of Albania, which reached an entirely undue degree at some point in the past. Ktrimi991 (talk) 20:07, 6 June 2023 (UTC)

I could just easily accuse you of trying to remove everything Greek for some time now [9]g/w/index.php?diff=prev&oldid=1151517917] [10] [11] [12], so yes, it does seem to really bother you. Apollonia has nothing to do with the Greek minority in Albania, and you know that. Greek is the second most-spoken language in the country, spoken by over 20% of the country as opposed to Macedonian, which is only spoken by some 3,000-5,000 speakers. "Let the Macedonian minority have a pic too" is not an argument, I have no problem with the Macedonian pic, and there is not a single reason why we can't have both a Greek and a Macedonian pic. There was an agreement to have both in the article [13], but apparently agreements don't mean anything to you. Anyway, this is a high visibility article and will be decided by community consensus, not brute-force edit-warring. Khirurg (talk) 20:59, 6 June 2023 (UTC)

I did not remove "everything" but just some of the Greek-related content. The Demographics section of Albania had more content on Greeks than it had for all other communities, Albanians included, combined. And it was you who added most of it. There was an agreement to have both in the article, but apparently agreements don't mean anything to you Things have changed, the article is not how it was back then. At the time 2 pics did not cause WP:SANDWICH issues, now they do. I happened to look at the article on the phone, and it was an eyesore very difficult to read and navigate. Ktrimi991 (talk) 21:08, 6 June 2023 (UTC)

No, you just removed almost everything. It's absolutely not true that there was more content on Greeks than " all other communities, Albanians included, combined." A gross exaggeration to justify removal of undesirable material. Things have changed, the article is not how it was back then: Nice of you to admit agreements with you mean absolutely nothing. If I claimed the same at another article, you would cry WP:CONSENSUS. Khirurg (talk) 21:15, 6 June 2023 (UTC)

(edit conflict) Greek is the second most-spoken language in the country, spoken by over 20% of the country English is spoken by more than 40% of the population. Why remove the Enlish sign together with the Macedonian one to keep the Greek sing? We can't keep 2 pics in the section. Bring a stronger argument for keeping the Greek sign and then it is OK doing so. Ktrimi991 (talk) 21:19, 6 June 2023 (UTC)

English is not a native language, so the "English" argument is not going to work. Why can't we keep both pics? It is obvious no argument is strong enough to convince you to keep the Greek sign: You just don't want it, period. Khirurg (talk) 21:22, 6 June 2023 (UTC)

English has much more speakers than all "native languages" combined, apart from Albanian itself ofc. Better to have a map that has 2 "native" languages and English, than to have one that has "native" languahes only. You keep thinking I do not like it because it is Greek. I have no reason why to "like" or "dislike" Macedonian more than Greek, but anyways you are free to think whatever you want. I can't change your mind. Ktrimi991 (talk) 21:28, 6 June 2023 (UTC)

English is not a native language, and by the way, the Greek sign also shows the Albanian name of the place, which is the same as the English spelling. But you still haven't answered my question: Why not have both the Greek and Macedonian signs, as was the consensus for the past 5 years? Khirurg (talk) 21:43, 6 June 2023 (UTC)

The reason has been told by 3 editors. WP:SANDWICH. Ktrimi991 (talk) 21:59, 6 June 2023 (UTC)

The WP:SANDWICH is still there. Removing the Greek sign makes no difference about the WP:SANDWICH, because the two images were part of a horizontal double image. Khirurg (talk) 23:33, 6 June 2023 (UTC)

At least you are finally accepting that there was a WP:SANDWICH issue since the beginning. It now looks good to me, but even if it is not good, it is better than it was with 2 pics. Yeah they were part of a double horizontal image, so it took more space horizontally than a single image. That's my point. However, if you continue to see WP:SANDWICH issues, feel free to remove the English-Macedonian signs pic as well, if that is what you are suggesting. I would like to keep that pic, but making the article difficult to navigate for readers is not a good idea. Ktrimi991 (talk) 23:47, 6 June 2023 (UTC)

That doesn't make sense. If it was a SANDWICH issue, why didn't you remove the other image as well? It's increasingly hard to AGF here, almost as if it's a deliberate provocation. Khirurg (talk) 02:13, 7 June 2023 (UTC)

Aside from the WP:SANDWICH, WP:UNDUE is also an issue if a pro-Greek POV is being over-represented. There are more Albanians in Greece than Greeks in Albania (by an overwhelming amount too), yet 'Albanians' are not mentioned once in the main article of Greece and the term 'Albanian' mentioned only five times. It is indeed an issue if there is "too much Greek" on the article, not because it is Greek, but because it is WP:UNDUE. I do not see an Albanian sign in the Greek article, either. Botushali (talk) 23:46, 6 June 2023 (UTC)

However, if we try to add some "Albanian stuff" (which some users like to call nationalistic POV pushing) to Greek articles, there will be WWIII. I'm sure Khirurg wouldn't like it if I filled up the Greek article with Albanian stuff. AlexBachmann (talk) 15:31, 7 June 2023 (UTC)

The two images present in the article (prior to this dispute) show road signs pretty far in the distance. The following are better options IMO for Greek File:Derviçan_Road_Sign.jpg or File:Frashtan Road Sign.jpg, and for Macedonian File:Dolna Gorica – bilingual sign 2.jpg, File:Dolna Gorica – bilingual sign 3.jpg, or File:Bilingual road signs directing to Glloboçeni, written in both Albanian and Macedonian.jpg. To avoid sandwiching, perhaps the two selected images could be put in a Template:Multiple image like the section directly above. Even with one image as it currently is, it can still be argued to be a sandwich. Maybe the Albanian dialects map could be put in the template along with the road sign images. --Local hero ^talk 03:24, 7 June 2023 (UTC)

Local hero, for this article the Albanian dialects map has much more weight than local road sign photos. If sandwitch persists, I'd rather remove both road sign photos, as already proposed by other editors above, applying the same standard as other articles about neighboring countries such as Greece and North Macedonia. After all, these articles are about countries, not local demography, I actually fail to see the point of including local road signs in this article, they are more due for more relevant articles such as Languages of Albania and Minorities of Albania. – Βατο (talk) 09:29, 7 June 2023 (UTC)

To avoid sandwiching, perhaps the two selected images could be put in a Template:Multiple image like the section directly above. They were in a multiple image template and the WP:SANDWICH was bigger than now. If sandwitch persists, I'd rather remove both road sign photos. Indeed, if there is still an WP:SANDWICH issue, the other road signs pic too should be removed. Ktrimi991 (talk) 10:07, 7 June 2023 (UTC)

Right, I'm not at all suggesting to remove the map. Ktrimi991, I meant a horizontal mult image template (as seen currently in the Minorities section) as opposed to vertical how it was. My point is if it's decided to continue to keep both (or one), I think the images I pointed out are better. --Local hero ^talk 17:05, 7 June 2023 (UTC)

The maps in the Minority section make the section look like a photo gallery on the mobile version. At least they are informative maps, while road signs have much less value. I would prefer the current pic because it contains 2 road signs: one in Albanian and a minority language (Macedonian) and one in Albanian and a foreign language for tourists (English). So it looks to me to be more illustrative, though I take your point that the signs are a bit far in the distance. I would also be OK with not having any road signs pic, as suggested by several editors here and one at WP:Countries. Ktrimi991 (talk) 17:15, 7 June 2023 (UTC)

I hadn't considered the value in that it the image also shows a foreign language, good point. --Local hero ^talk 17:46, 7 June 2023 (UTC)

I don't see the added value of the English sign. Every country in the world has those. The purpose of the images is to show that Albania respects its minorities by having road signs in their language. This may have to go to RfC. In the meantime I will add the images to the articles Βατο suggested. Khirurg (talk) 21:00, 7 June 2023 (UTC)

There is definitely no problem about SANDWICH by having both pictures of bilingual signs. In fact we need to retain representative images on both of the so-called minority zones. Alexikoua (talk) 04:40, 8 June 2023 (UTC)

@Khirurg: that's not true, among the Balkan countries only the articles of Albania and Kosovo have those. There is no need to show that "Albania respects its minorities by having road signs in their language" in a main Wikipedia article about a country. As stated by another third opinion requested by yourself from WikiProject Countries, as for language sign(s)...no room and dialects map should be bigger. I totally agree with that. – Βατο (talk) 12:52, 8 June 2023 (UTC)

I have a very hard time believing that, when you and certain other editors have no problem whatsoever with the Macedonian language sign, but start invoking "sandwiching" and "too many images" and "not useful" as soon as the Greek language sign is mentioned. Khirurg (talk) 23:45, 8 June 2023 (UTC)

Bato, I agree. Even more pics should be removed from parts of the article. Iaof2017 suggested pics from the Energy and Minorities sections. It seems that there is a general consensus to make more pics removals. Ktrimi991 (talk) 12:37, 9 June 2023 (UTC)

Some sections seem to have too many pics

@Iaof2017: maybe a few should be removed, what do you think? Ktrimi991 (talk) 13:58, 6 June 2023 (UTC)

I removed a pic as it was part of a duo that caused an ugly break to the text and I corrected a few things in the Energy sector, but more work on citations and updates to old info on economy etc are needed. The other pics if anyone should be removed I leave it up to you @Iaof2017:. The article needs work but I do not have the time. Ktrimi991 (talk) 14:26, 6 June 2023 (UTC)

@Khirurg: those pics do not represent any "POV". Read the article on the phone and look how those two pics look together. Even in the desktop version they do are not OK. Ktrimi991 (talk) 15:37, 6 June 2023 (UTC)

Removing the Greek language sign and only keeping the Macedonian language sign is definitely POV. It's the very definition of POV. Insisting it's not so does not make it less so. Khirurg (talk) 16:41, 6 June 2023 (UTC)

If the Greek language sign is a POV, which is the opposite POV? Ktrimi991 (talk) 17:21, 6 June 2023 (UTC)

Who said the "Greek language sign is a POV"? Keeping one sign and removing the other is what is POV. How about you explain why you kept the Macedonian language sign but removed the Greek language sign, despite the fact that Macedonian is spoken by ~5000 people, but Greek spoken by over 20% of the country? Khirurg (talk) 17:24, 6 June 2023 (UTC)

And most of those 20% have very limited comptence of the language, similar with Italian. English on the other hand is well-understood and spoken by a majority of both Albanians and those who visit from abroad. Ktrimi991 (talk) 17:38, 6 June 2023 (UTC)

Nonsense and original research. You still did not answer my question btw. Khirurg (talk) 17:50, 6 June 2023 (UTC)

Hey @Ktrimi991:, I hope you're doing well and thank you for pinging me. Regarding the pics, I also wanted to mention that the article contains too many images, especially sections where multiple images outweigh the accompanying textual content, such as in the "Energy" or "Minorities" section. Unfortunately, I'm currently busy with personal stuff and my studies, but it is still my plan to update the article very soon and particularly enrich the "Culture" section with new and important informations. Thank you anyway for your efforts.— Preceding unsigned comment added by Iaof2017 (talk • contribs)

Hey @Iaof2017: when you have the time let me know. We can work together on the issues. Cheers, Ktrimi991 (talk) 12:34, 9 June 2023 (UTC)

I removed some images and replaced one, others remain to be removed or replaced. Some sections also need to be rewritten and updated. – Βατο (talk) 15:03, 9 June 2023 (UTC)

Thanks. I will try to work on content improvement in the few coming weeks. Ktrimi991 (talk) 17:48, 9 June 2023 (UTC)

Hey again Ktrimi991, thank you for the prompt response. I will reach out to you when the time comes. And to you Βατο, also thank you for your contribution. Best regards ;)--Iaof2017 (talk) 17:59, 9 June 2023 (UTC)

Cheers :) Ktrimi991 (talk) 18:01, 9 June 2023 (UTC)

New Reworking of the Introduction

I have edited the lede based on the proposal by Bato. This version places everything in context, which was something that was severely lacking in the old version. If anyone has any disagreements or concerns, post them here and refrain from edit warring until the discussion concludes. Botushali (talk) 04:12, 13 June 2023 (UTC)

No objections. AlexBachmann (talk) 20:58, 13 June 2023 (UTC)

More selective removals

@AlexBachmann, you removed "Greek-speaking" from the description of the Chaonians, which seems highly selective. Not only does "Ancient tribe of the Chaonians" read really weird, but elsewhere, the article describes the Illyrian Ardiaei, Illyrian Taulantii, and Thracian tribe of the Bryges. So why did you only remove "Greek-speaking" from the Chaonians? Shall I remove "Illyrian" and "Thacian" from the other tribes, or re-add "Greek-speaking" for the Chaonians? It's all or none. No double standards and selective removals. Khirurg (talk) 16:26, 7 June 2023 (UTC)

Thank you for choosing to discuss. As already mentioned, the Greek speaking is irrelevant. The reader doesn't want to know what language the Venetians, Romans or other tribes and rulers spoke. If, however, they do, they should read the article. I'd suggest removing the "speaking" part and adding Epirote. They, in fact, were Greeks but Epirote is a more accurate term. Anything further is irrelevant. AlexBachmann (talk) 18:43, 7 June 2023 (UTC)

Not to mention the WP:UNDUE that is present in the article. AlexBachmann (talk) 18:49, 7 June 2023 (UTC)

"Epirotes" will do, but for the record, the terms "Illyrian" and "Thracian" are ethnic designations, whereas "Epirotes" is just a regional designation, it's not on the same level. Khirurg (talk) 20:12, 7 June 2023 (UTC)

A more comparable situation would be the Galabri and Thunatae of Dardani. So are we fine with Epirote? AlexBachmann (talk) 22:12, 7 June 2023 (UTC)

Yes. Khirurg (talk) 00:02, 8 June 2023 (UTC)

I believe we should be simple on the descriptions of those tribes: Epirote is a subdivision of the northwestern Greek group (and among the Epirotes we have Chaonians). Well we have Illyrian and Thracian tribes, we should be also consistent on naming the Greek ones in the same fashion.Alexikoua (talk) 04:46, 8 June 2023 (UTC)

I agree with AlexBachmann's and Khirurg's proposal, and disagree with Alexikoua's reasoning. Epirotes had their own identity, and Chaonians are mainly described as an Epirote tribe, both by ancient and modern sources. – Βατο (talk) 12:56, 8 June 2023 (UTC)

One more thing: The past where it says "has been controlled by [...] ancient Greeks". Should we leave it like this or write Epirotes? Both is convenient in this case. If we would place Epirotes in put in brackets it would just get too complicated. So it's this or that. AlexBachmann (talk) 19:26, 8 June 2023 (UTC)

First of all it should be "inhabited" instead of "controlled", you just changed that without consulting anyone. Second, it wasn't just Epirote Greeks, but also Greek colonies like Apollonia and Epidamnos, which weren't Epirote. Khirurg (talk) 20:16, 8 June 2023 (UTC)

As pointed out by Khirurg, I think it should include both Epirotes and ancient Greek colonists. And Bryges, which are inaccurately referred to as Thracians into the article and in that sentence, were an obscure people whose location is very speculative and mainly placed in south-eastern Illyria and western Macedonia in current scholarship, probably even outside present-day Albania, so their inclusion may be undue for this article. – Βατο (talk) 20:43, 8 June 2023 (UTC)

My point is that Epirotes and ancient Greek colonists can be simply referred to collectively as ancient Greeks. Then there is the Roman and Medieval period, where parts of Albania were inhabited by Byzantine Greeks, but obviously the labels "Epirotes" in the ancient sense and "Greek colonists" no longer applies. Khirurg (talk) 23:42, 8 June 2023 (UTC)

"Controlled" fits better. "Inhabited" is misleading and implies that Albanians were not living in that area "over time". Especially starting with "civilisations". Controlled would not be possibly misleading. AlexBachmann (talk) 22:52, 9 June 2023 (UTC)

Controlled is extremely misleading, because all those people mentioned, Illyrians, Greeks, Bryges, Romans etc. lived there, they didn't just control the place. Khirurg (talk) 02:02, 10 June 2023 (UTC)

Epirotes, Romans, Illyrians, Venetians and the like have indeed inhabited Albania at different points in history, so it’s only right to add a similar line to the article on Greece - “Greece has been inhabited by various civilisations over time, including Greeks, Albanians, Romans, Byzantines, Ottomans and Venetians”, or something along those lines. Perhaps the wording should be changed, as the whole of Albania was not inhabited by Greeks or Venetians, for example. Also, I am not sure why the Thracians are mentioned in this line. Botushali (talk) 02:34, 10 June 2023 (UTC)

Agreed. AlexBachmann (talk) 11:53, 10 June 2023 (UTC)

This whole "if you mess with our article, we will mess with your article" is straight out of the WP:NOTHERE playbook and will go nowhere except a likely topic ban for those involved. Khirurg (talk) 14:21, 10 June 2023 (UTC)

Who said we're messing with articles? Did you just admit that you're messing with this article? AlexBachmann (talk) 19:02, 10 June 2023 (UTC)

Do you have any clear and convincing reason to not include the suggested sentence? AlexBachmann (talk) 19:04, 10 June 2023 (UTC)

I wonder why the Chaonians being a Greek tribe should be hidden in this article. We have Illyrian tribes that are named as such in the text, and there is no reason to selective hide information about the identity of those ancient tribes.Alexikoua (talk) 20:42, 10 June 2023 (UTC)

(edit conflict) First of all, stop accusing others of "hiding". You did that here, and did the same accusation within minutes at the RfC. You have that many times. It seems you have learnt some accusations and repeat them without thinking much whenever you want to accuse someone. AlexBachmann, User:Iaof2017, User:Botushali and Βατο have opposed your edit, why keep trying to push it through edit warring? Ktrimi991 (talk) 21:10, 10 June 2023 (UTC)

So you admit you're messing with this article? I wouldn't phrase adding that line to the articles as "messing with your article" or "our article", rather, I'd consider it as contributing to the article. If you have a problem with adding a similar line to the article of Greece for the sake of consistency, then I don't know why you would support such a line here. The reason I bring this up is because consensus on certain types of articles usually sets the precedent for similar articles; see the TP of Kos when it came to the use of names and how it set in motion a variety of changes across similar articles. Furthermore, no one owns articles here on wiki, contrary to what you have stated here. If you believe that you own articles on wiki, or that anyone else has any sort of ownership over articles, then I believe you are more deserving of a topic ban. Botushali (talk) 02:29, 11 June 2023 (UTC)

Where did I say I owned any articles? Keep making false accusations like that and yes, I will push for you to be sanctioned. And read WP:BATTLE, because trying to get your way by holding other articles hostage is WP:BATTLE behavior, and it's not the first time you've done that. Khirurg (talk) 03:47, 11 June 2023 (UTC)

And I quote from you directly: This whole "if you mess with our article, we will mess with your article"... You are implying that people have ownership over articles. No one is messing with "your article", you do not own Wikipedia.

Furthermore, stop making false accusations against me. You have been doing that during my entire time on Wiki, from supposed WP violations to WP:ASPERSIONS, to false tag teaming reports, and the list goes on and on. I do not appreciate you besmirching my name at every possible turn. I do not "hold articles hostage", that is a very false and ridiculous claim to make. I am simply saying that consistency across articles is important. If you have such an issue with adding the same thing to another article, why would you push it on this one? You cannot be selective. Botushali (talk) 04:00, 11 June 2023 (UTC)

There is no such thing as "consistency across articles". No two country articles have identical sentences in the lede. Each country article is different. WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS. Greece and Albania are completely different countries, with different histories. Bringing Greece into this is disruptive, it has nothing to do with the discussion at hand. I see it as an attempt to intimidate. I can't help but get the impression that what I'm hearing is "If you add something we don't like to our article, we will add the same thing to your article". And it's pretty obvious, if you ask me. Khirurg (talk) 04:06, 11 June 2023 (UTC)

Again, you are claiming people have ownership over articles. You're basically saying "If you add something we don't like to our article, we will add the same thing to your article"... There is no "our article" or "your article", this is Wikipedia.

I see nothing wrong with drawing parallels to other similar articles. Albania and Greece are not the same, but they are two established countries, and they have corresponding articles that function as an overview of both nations. If it is such a huge problem to add the same line to Greece when Greece has also been inhabited by other civilisations, why are you so adamant to have it on Albania's article? I am not threatening to vandalise or disturb the article on Greece as you would like to think, I am simply drawing parallels. Accusing me of "taking articles hostage" and other ridiculous statements is not productive to this conversation in the slightest. Botushali (talk) 04:12, 11 June 2023 (UTC)

There are no parallels of any kind. And no, I'm not claiming to own articles, if you read what I wrote it's in quotes as a way to describe the behavior I'm seeing from you. I am increasingly having a hard time assuming good faith here. Anyway, I consider this matter of "parallels" closed, WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS. Khirurg (talk) 04:22, 11 June 2023 (UTC)

That does not apply to this case. The site is called: Wikipedia:Arguments to avoid in deletion discussions. Is that a deletion discussion? It is a fact that you don't have a reason for avoiding this sentence in the very top of the article of Greece. AlexBachmann (talk) 20:46, 11 June 2023 (UTC)

The hypocrisy here is astonishing. Either we name every tribe on their ethnic group either none. So if you add Ancient Greek to these tribes then we all should add Albanian to every Arvanite Suliote and Cham groups (which undoubtedly are southern albanian tribes of greece). RoyalHeritageAlb (talk) 20:05, 14 June 2023 (UTC)

I think proper contextualization should be provided for the information. The lede part before the declaration of independence could be reformulated like this: "In ancient times Illyrians inhabited northern and central Albania, Epirotes inhabited the south. Three important ancient Greek colonies were established on the coast of Albania. In the 2nd century BC the region was annexed by the Roman Republic, and after the division of the Empire it became part of Byzantium. The first known Albanian autonomous principality – Arbanon – was established in the 12th century. The Kingdom of Albania, Principality of Albania and Albania Veneta were formed between the 13th and 15th centuries including different parts of the country. From the late 15th century Albania became part of the Ottoman Empire, until the early 20th century." – Βατο (talk) 21:09, 10 June 2023 (UTC)

There is no reason to hide that the Epirote tribes were Greek in particular belonged to the northwestern Greek group. This should be underlined. There is an overall concensus in sholarship on this as such it needs to be stated.Alexikoua (talk) 21:45, 10 June 2023 (UTC)

Greet you Βατο, regarding the lead, I believe it is succinctly formulated. No update is actually necessary. The first sentence in the lead briefly mentions the ancient civilizations that inhabited various parts of Albania without favoring one over the other. I think it helps to avoid potential edit wars. Iaof2017 (talk) 22:29, 10 June 2023 (UTC)

I agree with Iaof here. Succinctness is important for the lede, per WP:SS. Khirurg (talk) 03:25, 11 June 2023 (UTC)

Personally, I agree with Bato's proposal; it is a more descriptive and informative explanation that solves the concerns I raised previously. I suggest we follow through and make this change on the article. Botushali (talk) 02:22, 11 June 2023 (UTC)

The current version is misleading. Support a reformulation. AlexBachmann (talk) 20:49, 11 June 2023 (UTC)

Pyrrhus

@Khirurg Here the drama starts again. Not only was Ancient Epirus located in todays' Albania, he was raised in Illyria, to be more exact: in the Taulantian kingdom. That. exactly. lies. in. Albania. AlexBachmann (talk) 19:53, 30 May 2023 (UTC)

You need to do some reading. Ancient Epirus was mostly located in Greece. Pyrrhus of Epirus has nothing whatsoever to do with Albania. There is a gap of some 23 centuries between the time of Pyrrhus and the creation of the Albanian state. Are you going to add Alexander the Great next? He conquered some of the territory of what is now Albania. Are you going to add every single notable person that spent part of their lives in what is now Albania? Khirurg (talk) 20:49, 30 May 2023 (UTC)

Serbia has also got nothing to do with the Illyrians and the Vinca culture, it is still mentioned in the history section. I think you don't like the fact that Pyrrhus grew up in an Illyrian household. AlexBachmann (talk) 21:08, 30 May 2023 (UTC)

Two wrongs don't make a right. "There is some irrelevant junk in the article, so why can't I add more irrelevant junk"? What kind of logic is that? Instead of trying to figure out what I like and don't like, how about you stop the crude nationalistic POV-pushing. Khirurg (talk) 21:17, 30 May 2023 (UTC)

I'll propose a third opinion soon. AlexBachmann (talk) 15:31, 7 June 2023 (UTC)

Hello; I'll do my best to give a third opinion. In my eyes, the main issue here is over sourcing. @AlexBachmann, unless I'm misunderstanding something, it looks like you used Justin's Epitome, which is from antiquity, as the source for your passage about Pyyrhus (in this diff, I think). I read a bit of it in the course of looking into this and it seems quite interesting. At the same time, being ancient, it's a primary source, so to use it that way in this article would be original research (especially since that book was written long before Albania came around). If you can find mention of Pyrrhus in a reliable contemporary book or article on Albanian history, I would be more convinced that Pyrrhus belongs here, especially if he features substantially in some sense. Mesocarp (talk) 00:55, 16 June 2023 (UTC)

The issue for me is that Pyrrhus has no connection to, or significant impact on Albania, as he lived well over a thousand years before the very first Albanian proto-state was created in Middle Ages. Pyrrhus lived in the 3rd century BC, but the first Albanian principality that could be considered a forerunner of modern day Albania was the Principality of Arbanon in 1190 AD. There's a gap of some 14-15 centuries. Not only that, but he only spent a few childhood years in the territory of what is now Albania, and had no impact whatsoever on the history of Albania. After childhood, he reclaimed his kingdom in Molossia, which is located in what is now Greece. He then campaigned in Greece and Italy.The history sections of country articles are meant to provide only a brief overview of the history of a country, per WP:SS. If every minor, like which notable individual spent a few years growing up there, the history sections would be enormous. Khirurg (talk) 02:11, 16 June 2023 (UTC)

Correction : "a forerunner of modern day Albania is the Albanoi Illyrian tribe mentioned by Ptolemy." RoyalHeritageAlb (talk) 04:11, 16 June 2023 (UTC)

Source that it's a forerunner of modern day Albania? Khirurg (talk) 05:24, 16 June 2023 (UTC)

Same ethnonym, same territory, same non greek non latin non slavic non written language. Same toponymic etymologies.

sources about the Albanoi?

Ptolemy's geographia

Strabo Livy and Pliny The Elder.

Archaeological findings linking them to the Illyrian culture etc. Albanoi gave name to Arbanon and Albania. RoyalHeritageAlb (talk) 05:53, 16 June 2023 (UTC)

Khirurg, he did not just "spend some years" in Albania, he was raised in Illyria. His Illyrian father Glaucias then raided Epirus and set him on the throne. There is no doubt that Albanians are paleo-Balkanic people, perhaps Illyrian (which is support among scholars). The Abroi were a part of the Taulantii (where Pyrrhus was raised). Even ignoring all of that, the history section doesn't only include only passages from their "own history" on many pages on Wikipedia. AlexBachmann (talk) 20:45, 16 June 2023 (UTC)

He spent less than 10 years as a child, that's it. He has nothing to do with modern-day Albania, or even medieval Albania. This article is not about Pyrrhus, but about Albania. The biographical details of Pyrrhus' life are way beyond the scope of this article. The only place where his early years should be discussed is the "Early Life" section of Pyrrhus. Should we describe Alexander's early years at the history section of Greece, or Caesar's early years in the history section of Italy? Btw, you do realize that he was Greek, and if he is added to the article (which I highly doubt), he will be described as a "Greek general and king". Khirurg (talk) 21:27, 16 June 2023 (UTC)

You know that Finiq(Phoenice) the center of Epirotean League is in Modern Albania right? Also he will be described as Greek General as soon as Every Arvanite would be described as Albanian General. If its about the allegiance not ethnical group then Epirote and Arvanite are as sweet as they can be. RoyalHeritageAlb (talk) 10:10, 17 June 2023 (UTC)

In my opinion, just about anything in the history section of a country's article ought to be sourced from respected contemporary academic historians writing about the history of the country. A lot of stuff of dubious relevance makes it into those sections, here and elsewhere. (In fact, there's a lot of other stuff in the history section here I think should probably go, unless it can be sourced better.) It's not really up to us what qualifies as relevant to a country's history—we should start from high-quality secondary sources and argue from there. If people try to argue just based on their own views, these kinds of topics are so controversial that it's easy for the discussion to go on until the world freezes over.

On that basis, if you want to bring Pyrrhus into this article, I think you should be able to produce a reputable, decently recent, academic history source that directly relates Pyrrhus to the history of Albania. If you do that, I will agree that he deserves a mention here. Otherwise, I won't. Mesocarp (talk) 21:47, 16 June 2023 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 17 June 2023

Edit redirects from "Albanian Republic," "First Republic of Albania", &c. to Albanian Republic (1925–1928): links such as "First Republic of Albania" in History re-direct back to same page Piyo99 (talk) 02:09, 17 June 2023 (UTC)

 Done Iseult ^Δx parlez moi 14:54, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 21 June 2023

Fix misc. typos:

Under Protected Areas: "The Ceraunian Mountains ... characterises the topographical" to "The Ceraunian Mountains ... characterise the topographical"

Under Foreign Relations: "the Albania's independence and democracy" to "Albania's independence and democracy"

Under Economy: "The Foreign direct investment" to "Foreign direct investment"

Under Primary Sector: "The today's region was" to "today's region was"

Placeholderer (talk) 16:08, 21 June 2023 (UTC)

Sorry in advance: First time making edit request, I don't know if I put this in the right place Placeholderer (talk) 16:11, 21 June 2023 (UTC)

 Done; reasonable. @Placeholderer:, for future reference, you technically did put the request in the right place; however, please make a new section for the request as I have. I've also cleaned up the request itself. For more information, see Template:Edit extended-protected. Iseult ^Δx parlez moi 14:59, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 25 June 2023

I want to put in that 7% Orthodox and 10% Chatolic Yanis-Ali (talk) 11:21, 25 June 2023 (UTC)

 Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. Lightoil (talk) 12:54, 25 June 2023 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 29 June 2023

Under "Climate", a sentence begins with "On the contrary, the coldest areas are positioned within ...". I would suggest that "On the contrary" be replaced by "By contrast".

Under "Governance", the sentence that begins with "The legislative power is held by the parliament and is elected every four years by a system ..." is grammatically incorrect. The legislative power is not elected every four years, parliament is. Suggest adding "which" before "is elected every four years" ASRisk (talk) 16:54, 29 June 2023 (UTC)

 Done, though I handled the first one a little differently from your suggestion. Thanks for the request. Largoplazo (talk) 16:59, 29 June 2023 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 6 July 2023

Typo in the Contemporary section, "svarious" -> "various" in "Comprehensive response to the earthquake included substantial humanitarian aid from the Albanian diaspora and svarious countries around the world." Tadejpetric (talk) 15:36, 6 July 2023 (UTC)

Fixed, thanks. Nikkimaria (talk) 04:01, 7 July 2023 (UTC)

Representation

Gotta love the complete erasure of Albanian Catholic figures who have contributed so much to this fraught country from the depiction of its history, literature, the arts, Albanian Renaissance, and politics. A more balanced article should be desirable. The first epic, the first historian, the first opera, the first written document in Albanian (I guess you had include that one), the first Albanian Latin dictionary, generally the early literature, the first photography studio, the political contributions of figures like Pashko Vasa, Luigj Gurakuqi, Ernest Koliqi, Gjergj Fishta etc.

It's also completely inappropriate to relegate the figure that provides the founding mythos of our nationality to a picture beside Ali Pashe Tepelena, who was no doubt significant, but not as significant. You should separate the pictures under the Ottoman history sections and give each their separate and proportional due. 142.126.212.22 (talk) 20:07, 10 August 2023 (UTC)

When it says “Protestants”

It calls The LDS church and the Jehovah’s Witnesses Protestants. Both are Nontrinitarian Christians. 2600:1004:A042:5EF4:4D6A:848B:D644:A92F (talk) 20:27, 24 August 2023 (UTC)

Human Development Index

The link in the article is old from 2014. Here's a new link https://hdr.undp.org/system/files/documents/global-report-document/hdr2021-22pdf_1.pdf#page=284

Can somebody update it? Vajzë Blu (talk) 22:56, 12 October 2023 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 23 October 2023

Can we add a link to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ptolemy in the first few paragraphs. thank you! Iam999000 (talk) 16:00, 23 October 2023 (UTC)

 Done Largoplazo (talk) 16:34, 23 October 2023 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 12 November 2023

Serbia on the north. 109.245.37.186 (talk) 11:53, 12 November 2023 (UTC)

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. Liu1126 (talk) 13:22, 12 November 2023 (UTC)

Albania shares land border with Kosovo and not Serbia! Iaof2017 (talk) 15:18, 12 November 2023 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 26 November 2023

In the first sentence of "Fourth Republic" under the section "History", can the word "enduring" be cut. I think it implies communism was bad for the country which is not very neutral. Clamel32 (talk) 02:12, 27 November 2023 (UTC)

Narco-state

Albania is a Narco-state as mentioned in the media. Please put back into the article whenever it serves the best purpose. Twillisjr (talk) 19:06, 29 November 2023 (UTC)

What media says that? Nikkimaria (talk) 05:00, 1 December 2023 (UTC)

It is a well known fact. See the paragraph about Albania on the Narco-state page and you can find reliable sources that refer to Albania as a Narco-state with a simple Google search.

Here is 1 such source: https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/albania-drug-cannabis-trafficking-hub-europe-adriatic-sea-a8747036.html

In addition, search “Albania narco state” on Google Books for results.

Twillisjr (talk) 16:22, 1 December 2023 (UTC)

Sources

Various authors have mentioned Albania and the Illyrians in their works, from late antiquity to the early Middle Ages, among them:

• Hecataeus of Miletus (c. 550 BC - c. 476 BC) [14];
• The inscription of Phoinike, mentioning one Ἀρβαῖος (3rd century –2nd century BC);
• The epitaph of Gornja Solnja (end of 1st century - beginning of 2nd century);
• Polybius (c. 208 - c. 125 BC) [15]; In his work The Histories, Polybius reported the first diplomatic contacts between the Romans and Illyrians.
• Claudius Ptolemy (c. 90 - 168), as reported in one of his key sources, the Greco-Phoenician cartographer Marinus of Tyre (1st century) [16]; Ptolemy is the earliest writer in whose works the name of the Albanians has been distinctly recognized. He mentions (3.13.23) a tribe called Albani (Ἀλβανοί) and a town Albanopolis (Ἀλβανόπολις), in the region lying to the East of the Ionian sea; and from the names of places with which Albanopolis is connected, it appears clearly to have been in the Southern part of the Illyrian territory, and in modern Albania.
• Annales Ragusini Anonymi [17]; an identification of Albania with Croatia Alba has been rejected [18]
• Stephanus of Byzantium (end of the 5th century - beginning of the 6th century) [19];
• Procopius of Caesarea (c. 500-565) [20];
• Catalogus Felicianus (first half of the 6th century) [21];
• Chronicle of Joan of Nikiu, in Coptic (end of the 6th century) [22];
• Constantine Porphyrogennetos (905 - 959);
• Suida (second half of the 10th century) [23];
• Anonymous Bulgarian on the Origin of Nations (beginning of the 11th century) [24];
• Generationum et Banorum apud Chroatos (end of the 11th century) [25];
• Michael Attaleiates (c. 1022-1080) [26];
• Anna Komnena (c. 1083-1153) [27];
• La Chanson de Roland (1085), mentioning Albeigne, - the coastal part of Albania etc. [28].-— Preceding unsigned comment added by Moxy (talk • contribs) 11:23, 18 October 2021 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 7 December 2023

Ref. the line, 'After enduring four decades of communism'. The word "enduring" seems loaded, and not what I would deem appropriate for Wikipedia. I suggest "experiencing" as a more neutral verb. Glen newell (talk) 12:52, 7 December 2023 (UTC)

 Question: Which section is it in? Shadow311 (talk) 15:45, 7 December 2023 (UTC)

First sentence in the History section under the Fourth Republic subsection. 2607:FEA8:8523:8C00:FDA5:F29E:64C0:5B20 (talk) 18:09, 7 December 2023 (UTC)

 Done Shadow311 (talk) 19:42, 7 December 2023 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 31 December 2023

Kosovo is not a country, not matter how much you don't like it. Remove the political language and change Kosovo to Serbia, as internationally recognized. 5.44.169.41 (talk) 08:58, 31 December 2023 (UTC)

 Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. You'll need a lot to prove that Kosovo isn't a country... Mattdaviesfsic (talk) 09:09, 31 December 2023 (UTC)

Religions

About religion you should ignore the 2011 census, because it was claimed as ilegal and disputed by the European Council. Christians in Albania make around 38% of the population. 188.172.110.100 (talk) 10:04, 13 January 2024 (UTC)

Can you point to evidence of this claim/dispute? Largoplazo (talk) 13:38, 13 January 2024 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 18 February 2024

Request to add Mass media in Albania under Albania#Culture. 203.149.142.34 (talk) 10:54, 18 February 2024 (UTC)

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. Melmann 14:43, 26 February 2024 (UTC)

I thought it was plain enough what was being asked— to add a "See also" hatnote under the heading from the Culture section—but since there's a main article hatnote there, this link should go in the main article, and I'm also moving to that article the existing "See also" link for Albanian folk beliefs. Largoplazo (talk) 16:51, 26 February 2024 (UTC)

Change of mind, actually. Both links are already included there in the Culture of Albania navbox. No need to choose those two arbitrary links as well to include in that article's "See also" section. Largoplazo (talk) 16:54, 26 February 2024 (UTC)

Illyrian and Arvanite history

The claim that the Albanians are related to the Illyrians and the Arvanites, other than sharing the same land that the two tribes once inhabited, has not yet been proven. This theory was created in Albania in recent years and has not been verified until now. Christosk92 (talk) 17:20, 8 May 2024 (UTC)

Its already explained in the article how it is. Wikipedia its not a place for Original Research. RoyalHeritageAlb (talk) 23:57, 8 May 2024 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 19 June 2024

Please change BC to BCE and AD to CE. Modern scholarship prefers the far more inclusive BCE and CE versus BC and AD. This article uses both throughout so changing the date format to BCE and CE will also make the article more stylistically consistent. CuJoYYC (talk) 13:50, 19 June 2024 (UTC)

 Not done: While I share your preference for BCE/CE overall, see MOS:ERA for the applicable guidelines for Wikipedia articles. As of your writing, BC and BCE were both in use in the article; there was also one use of AD and none of CE. Looking at earlier revisions, I found there was a time when the article (see the revision at https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Albania&oldid=624794034, for example) had only one use of any of BC, BCE, AD, or CE, and it was BC. Therefore, in conformance with the guidelines, I settled on the BC/AD model as the one to follow for this article and changed all the instances of BCE (except in the title in one footnote, which would have been inappropriate to change) to BC. Largoplazo (talk) 14:35, 19 June 2024 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 3 July 2024

Seljonura (talk) 17:02, 3 July 2024 (UTC)

Gdp per capita in Albania has rise in 10531$ due to latest census population change to 2402113 and Gdp is still 25+ billions of $

 Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. PianoDan (talk) 21:22, 3 July 2024 (UTC)

https://a2news.com/shqiperia/ekonomi/pakesimi-i-popullsise-i-ka-bere-shqiptaret-me-te-pasur-e-me-bo-i1123230 i don't know if you can translate it to english to understand Seljonura (talk) 15:57, 4 July 2024 (UTC)

HDI change

Albania's HDI is shown as being 0.789 when in reality it is actually now 0.796 according to: https://countryeconomy.com/countries/albania https://www.statista.com/statistics/1085273/human-development-index-of-albania/ https://bti-project.org/en/reports/country-report/ALB https://countryeconomy.com/hdi/albania https://www.datapandas.org/ranking/hdi-by-country

Please update Albania's HDI in the information tab to 0.796 according to these sources Ressa14457 (talk) 08:02, 4 August 2024 (UTC)

Religion

When talking about religons in Albania don't refer to the censuses made in the country because they're all manipulated. Follow this structure about religions in Albania: ~45.7% Islam: ~39% Christianity ~19.4% non-denominational ~4.0% Atheist ~1% Protestantism ~1% other (see Religion in Albania)

I hope I was clear 188.172.108.115 (talk) 10:54, 17 July 2024 (UTC)

Albanians are 45.7% muslim as the number has dropped. Maria1718182 (talk) 08:46, 30 July 2024 (UTC)

I just want to put my information in the religion section because the last two censuses made in Albania are considered fake. 188.172.111.117 (talk) 11:01, 3 August 2024 (UTC)

I know. But we must wait until the official site says it. Maria1718182 (talk) 13:21, 11 September 2024 (UTC)