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Merging pages

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Initial arguments

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I have noticed that several pages in the Ace Combat catagory have been tagged as not being sufficiently notible. I can see the reasoning behind this, but at the same time I think that it would be a shame to lose all the hard work and research that people have put into it. Thus in an effort to perserve these contributions while reducing the clutter, I propose that we merge the content of these pages into new larger pages entitled Nations and Organizations of Ace Combat and Superweapons of Ace Combat. Individually, these pages may not make the notibility criteria, but collectively they can be perserved. I will be placing merger tags on pages that have notibility tags and be adding links to the discussion pages that reference back to this page. What do you all think? - Fearless Son 18:23, 6 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Articles to be merged

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These are (in alphabetical order) the pages that have been tagged as being potentially not-notible:

Merge tags have been added (but not by me) to all the pages on the proceeding list. I might start copy-and-pasting all the articles over to the new pages anyway to save people trouble. If my proposal is not met with a good reception, then we can just delete the new pages anyway. - Fearless Son 19:11, 6 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I agree to merge; this should lessen some of the tension AC articles have been under. ZakuTalk 21:42, 6 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I have seen that you are very active in editing Ace Combat articles, so having your support reassures me a bit, so thank you.  :) Mostly I want to do this to reduce "friction" in these pages. - Fearless Son 21:49, 6 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
My only fear is that if we do merge all the nations and organizations into one article, and if all the article are like the others I have seen, then the article will become massive and difficult to navigate. The articles I have seen feature more then enough content to warrant their existance. It would be nice if we could insure their survival as seperate articles, however, I guess we must take whatever steps necessary to insure their survival period.SAWGunner89 01:21, 18 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
That is quite a valid point, and is my primary concern as well. Hopefully, we can reduce these pages to something managable. While this does involve splitting them into seperate pages, they are seperated in a different, and hopefully more managable manner than they were before. - Fearless Son 07:49, 18 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I couldn't quite yet understand the notability issue and why Combination posted a spitload of notability tags in the individual articles. Is there any way to prevent a notability tag from cropping up here as well in the merged articles? I got a feeling some tags could appear if an article about the the AC6 air fortresses are uploaded.Eaglestorm 12:19, 24 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Combination had a valid point in putting up the notability tags. For example, would you think that Wikipedia needed an article on, say, Han Solo's blaster pistol? That would probably be going into excessive detail about something of limited informational revelance outside of a small niche group of fans. On the other hand, if such an article were merged into the article on Han Solo, then there would really be no oppertunity to put a notability tag since the character himself is so visable and iconic. That is kind of what I am trying to do here. There is no way to make it so that people cannot put notability tags on articles, but we can make articles so that applying such future tags are unjustified. - Fearless Son 19:21, 27 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Ah, ok. I was just worried that ALL THOSE ARTICLES could be junked because of the notability issue and how to rewrite them within acceptable guidelines. as for the uniformity thing...Could you check if the Aircraft of Ace Combat 3 article holds on its own? I gotta tell you, some of the stuff got me worked up in rewriting them, like WTH was that other guy writing about?Eaglestorm 12:35, 29 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Hmm, I am not sure that it would be a good idea to have an entire article just to the planes in AC3. Might be a good idea to have a list article of all planes in all AC games though. Might also want to make a new page for fictional aircraft in AC games too. - Fearless Son 09:14, 2 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
But there already IS an aircraft list, right? All of a sudden, I remember what happened to that Aircraft of Ace Combat X artick that got deleted last year for some reason. At last check, I've cleaned up the General Resources section so far, with no red links! Eaglestorm 11:36, 4 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Bam, the Aircraft of AC3 artick is gone....the first real Wikiedit I made. Eaglestorm 06:50, 24 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
It happens to all of us at some point or another. Heck, I am even considering nominating the first major edit I ever made to Wikipedia for deletion. I made it because several other articles about a fictional elements made reference to another fictional element that was never fully explained, so I made an article explaining it to reduce confusion by people new to the fictional universe. However, all those articles that required that I make my article have since been deleted for being "non notible", thus rendering my article obsolete. Like I said, happens to all of us. Sad to see so much hard work disappear, and that is why I initiated this project. - Fearless Son 22:53, 7 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Further arguments

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I would also like to add a little more to my argument for a merger. I think that the issue is fundamentally structural, rather than intentional. If I were to take a guess, I would say that most of the early Ace Combat articles were done by users of limited editing experience but a great deal of enthuasism, thus leading to the creation of lots of seperate articles with a lot of detailed information. As people gained more experience and more experienced users edited, the quality of the articles got very good, but since there is little new cannonical information that has been added to these existing articles since their creation, they are unlikely to grow. As new Ace Combat games have come out, more elements have been described, and following the established pattern, more articles have been added. However, the problem is that having too many of these articles ends up cluttering their general subject, that is the Ace Combat series and the world it depicts. As new Ace Combat games are created, then if this pattern continues things will get even more cluttered. People will start posting even more notibility concern tags, and the effort needed to keep articles will become even greater. It will be a fight just to retain information added in good faith with hard work. I do not want that to happen. I think that the Ace Combat subject has outgrown its piece-meal roots and needs to be re-organized for more structure, lest we spread our efforts too thin. Thus why I suggest merging lots of these related but disprate elements into a smaller number of larger articles. This will not only make it easier to maintain, but we will also be able to do a lot of clean-up of redundant information. For example, in the Nations and Organizations of Ace Combat article we will be able to remove most of the international history, since that is repeated many times across all the individual articles that it merges, perhapse we could even create a new article for all of the known history of the Ace Combat world to date. This way when new Ace Combat games come out, the existing articles will be added too, but we will not create a bunch of new articles that we will then have to defend as notible, especially since the usual defense is "well the other (insert Ace Combat element here) article is still here so this should be too!" which does not hold up in logical argument well. This should make finding, organizing, editing, and adding information easier on all of us. - Fearless Son 22:40, 6 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I agree with everything said; I see you've already imported all of the articles into the larger ones, so I'll fix up redundancies/formatting issues in a day or two. ZakuTalk 16:50, 7 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for the help. I know that I cannot do this alone, of course, but I figured that I could do a bunch of the major things to make this easier on people. As for cleaning up the fine details, I will leave that to people better qualified than I. However, I do want to make sure that I get the major structure in place so things go smoothly for everyone. - Fearless Son 20:58, 7 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I like your idea about the Ace Combat history page. There was a timeline, but it was unfortunately deleted. I would make a history page myself, but I am new to this, thus I haven't tried to, but I support your effort and think you are taking this in the right direction. I will aid you in anyway possible. -Rogue Leader
Glad to have your support Rogue Leader! The advantage we have in this is that most of the information is already written in the histories of the various nations, we just need to edit it into one single history. Maybe we can add the timeline back in to it, that sounds like a nice idea. It may have been deleted as a page on its own, but it would find plenty of staying-clout if it was part of a larger article. Oh, and please register a user profile with Wikipedia and log in when you make changes. It makes it easier to track contributions and history. ^_^ - Fearless Son 06:01, 8 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Good idea, the number of AC articles was getting a bit excessive anyway. I'll be glad to help out Auxfusion 13:04, 11 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Glad to have your help Auxfusion! - Fearless Son 23:49, 12 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Ending criteria

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I believe that we will be able to consider these pages "done" (within the scope of merging project) once both pages I have created are reduced to a reasonable file size. Mostly I am content with anything that does not show a warning about the size when one edits a page, definately less than one-hundred kilobytes each, hopefully not much more than half that. This will likely require things such as a seperate history page, since that takes up a lot of room. The merged articles do not need to be cleaned up perfectly yet, that can wait until after the merger project is finished. Once we have gotten these two pages to reasonable file sizes I will consider the merger idea "ready" and will put it to a vote. I want to show people that this merger can work before I ask them to commit to going ahead with it or axing it. So far I have recieved no opposition to this plan other than some valid concerns put forth by a supporter, but I would still like to end it with a vote so everything is nice and official. If the vote passes, then I will make all the existing pages to be merged into redirect pages to their respective sections. If the vote does not pass, then I will request that the new pages be deleted. - Fearless Son 06:51, 8 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Okay, Fearless Son.By the way. I've created an account and it's no longer Rogue Leader, but Rogue Commander.Rogue Commander 22:57, 8 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Looks good Rogue Commander. Now you can do stuff like create watch lists to keep track of changes in articles that you are interested in, or look back over your own contributions. - Fearless Son 00:15, 9 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Hey, Fearless son, I left a message for you at the Nations and Organizations of Ace Combat talk page under "New pages." Go check it out.Rogue Commander 02:17, 20 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Replied, and I think that you have a good idea. - Fearless Son 19:23, 27 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I think we should just delete the other pages and get it over with. The page already exist and all of the info is on it already.Rogue Commander 02:30, 20 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Nah, I want this to be "proper". That way people cannot complain about it later; makes less problems in the long run. - Fearless Son 19:23, 27 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Well, lets hurry up and get this done. I'm tired of looking at all these articles.-67.33.113.220 21:50, 9 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Completing merge

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I have nominated all the old source articles for related-article deletion, which will leave only the amalgamated articles we have created during this project. - Fearless Son 22:48, 7 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Conclusion of the merger project and a proposed new direction

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Well, I would say that the merge project is largely complete. Sure, the articles themselves can be improved, citations added, point of view changed, file size streamlined, etc, but those are all ongoing things for any article so I am content to leave them for the moment. However, I do not think that our efforts are over. I have been doing a lot of thinking over the course of this project, and I have come to some conclusions that I will relate. What we have not done is save the old content, rather what we have done is bought some time. Firstly, we traded arguments of notibility for arguments of file-size. At least things like file-size are easier to argue for and against than notibility, people tend to get less passionate when one tells them that their page is too big than when one tells them that their page is not worth having, so that makes it a little easier on us. However, the more Ace Combat games that come out, the more these articles will have to expand, and the harder it will be to keep the file-size reasonable, no matter how much we streamline it. Plus, while a large collection of fictional elements is easier to defend as notible than a lot of individual small fictional elements, the argument against its notibility will almost certainly keep cropping up in the future. Lately Wikipedia has been really clamping down on fictional material, and it is only a matter of time before this article comes under the microscope. The formal policy on the matter is here. The major thing that it states is "A topic is presumed to be notable if it has received significant coverage in reliable secondary sources that are independent of the subject." This means that articles for the games themselves could be considered notable as they are real-world things, and a list of aircraft in the AC games is notable since those aircraft are real world things referenced by other cultural elements. However, things like Ace Combat super weapons and Ace Combat nations are not referenced outside of the Ace Combat games, they do not have so-called "secondary sources", and thus editors who have a strict interpretation of notability will eventually try to get our new articles deleted as non-notable.

While we have certainly bought ourselves time, it seems clear to me that future battles for this content are inevitable. We need to adopt a permenant solution to the issue, and I have a new proposal to address just that. In the time since this project was undertaken, I have discovered a wide variety of other wikis online, most of which are partnered with Wikipedia in an either official or unofficial capacity. It seems that these wikis were ether created because of the tightening restrictions in Wikipedia, or the tightening restrictions in Wikipedia were encouraged by the presence of other interest-specific wikis, or some combination of both. But the result is, there are a lot of wikis out there that cross-link with each other and Wikipedia and are less restrictive than Wikipedia is because of their more specific nature. It took little research to discover that there does in fact exist an Ace Combat Wiki.

Now, you know that the reason I started this merger project was because I did not want to see all the information and hard work contained in these articles to be lost. Now that we have the merger largely completed, I propose that we adopt a new project, the transwikification of Ace Combat. I see that a small amount of the content on the AceWiki is already pretty much directly copied from the Wikipedia articles, and we can do more. We can shift all the Wikipedia Ace Combat material in danger of being non-notable from Wikipedia to AceWiki, and have redirection tags that go there. That way we can continue to inform those who are interested and maintain our hard work with pride in a place where we will not have to perpetually defend it. What do you think? - Fearless Son 23:41, 7 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Just visited that Wikia page. looks fine by me. We'd better scrounge up all the reverted data that can be put there..like the ACZ Ace Squadron data that Miremare moved last month, for example. at the same time, try rewriting everything so they are not electrosphere.info carbons. Eaglestorm 14:13, 14 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Sounds good to me. That wiki could use an expansion anyway.Rogue Commander 23:59, 17 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Speaking of Wikis, I also have an Ace Combat wiki. [1] Cheers,JetLover (Report a mistake) 03:08, 18 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Will sombody please nominate all those other non-almagated articles for speedy deletion please!!!Rogue Commander 17:17, 19 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I nominated them for regular deletion, not speedy. If you feel that speedy deletion is necessary, then you can place the tags there. - Fearless Son 21:02, 20 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I've nominated all the coutries for speedy deletion. Could yoy change the deletion tags on the superweapons?Rogue Commander 01:58, 21 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Guys, deletion is not necessary, just replace the pages with redirects. _dk 02:15, 21 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Huh, I never thought of that. I figured that would be some violation of policy or something. Sure, let us do so. - Fearless Son 22:33, 21 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Never thought about that. Can sombady else do it.No time.Rogue Commander 22:58, 22 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Merger is complete this discussion is closed.Rogue Commander 02:32, 28 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
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