Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Television/Archive 24

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RfC on DeAndre Brackensick standalone article

An RfC has been opened at American Idol (season 11)#RfC on DeAndre Brackensick standalone article --Jpcase (talk) 20:40, 20 December 2016 (UTC)

Brave Witches

Hi. There seems to be some issues regarding wording issues in the episode summaries and lead section on List of Brave Witches episodes, which may be a potential FL in the future. These can be found at Talk:List of Brave Witches episodes#Episode summaries and Talk:List of Brave Witches episodes#FL push? (the lead section discussion is in that particular thread). Comments from project members would be very much appreciated. Thanks, Lord Sjones23 (talk - contributions) 22:22, 21 December 2016 (UTC)

Fantasy category removal on Men in Black: The Series

Someone removed the American fantasy television series category from Men in Black: The Series and claims that it's not a fantasy television series when it actually is. Can someone please look into this situation? — FilmandTVFan28 (talk) 11:10, 24 December 2016 (UTC)

Happy Holidays!

We would like to wish everyone on the project a very happy holiday season! Lord Sjones23 (talk - contributions) 03:04, 25 December 2016 (UTC)

And to you, Sjones! A Merry Christmas to all of my fellow WikiProject Television editors, and a wish for Happy Holidays for those who don't celebrate it. It's been a joy editing with everyone here, and I look forward to continuing this into the New Year of 2017. Alex|The|Whovian^? 11:00, 25 December 2016 (UTC)

Straw poll for updates to TVPLOT

Hi all. There is currently a straw poll open to discuss updating and redefining word count limits for plot sections as used in the various articles of the TV project. You can find all info on the straw poll, including the discussion that lead to its creation, here. - Favre1fan93 (talk) 17:33, 27 December 2016 (UTC)

Requested page move

Please see the discussion on Talk:The Biography Channel (Canada) for a requested page move. musimax. (talk) 15:36, 28 December 2016 (UTC)

MOS:DATERANGE - FYI

Hey all, I just learned this today, but it looks as though MOS:DATERANGE now prefers YYYY–YYYY formatting. It used to be YYYY–YY unless we crossed a century. Now the two-digit year may be used for consecutive years only. 1992–93. Why am I bringing this up? Because I'm embarrassed that I just found out about this and want to spare anyone else the headache. Cyphoidbomb (talk) 00:46, 28 December 2016 (UTC)

This was brought up a few months ago; I can't remember what was said exactly, but it was decided that the WikiProject Television articles should continue to use YYYY–YY, regardless of the case. Alex|The|Whovian^? 00:51, 28 December 2016 (UTC)

And on that, there is an IP hopping anonymous editor persistently changing to the yyyy-yyyy format. He seems stuck on one IP at the moment, but at Noodle and Doodle he has done the same, as well as including a ridiculous amount of overlinking using the current[1]other IPs.[2] --AussieLegend (✉) 06:45, 28 December 2016 (UTC)

@AlexTheWhovian: I'm a little concerned about your comment. In what way is the situation you apparently describe concordant with WP:CONLEVEL? --Izno (talk) 07:29, 28 December 2016 (UTC)

@Izno:The discussion here states

The community has decided that four year date ranges (i.e. XXXX–XXXX) should be the default style used in Wikipedia. A limited number of exceptions apply to this. Firstly, when space is at a premium, such as in tables or infoboxes, two year date styles may be used. Secondly, applications such as sports seasons, fiscal years, and consecutive years use the two-year date range convention without problems. These applications can continue to do so. This list is not intended to be exhaustive, and exceptions can apply with a strong local consensus.

so I think we're covered. I assume with respect to WikiProject Television articles, we're mainly talking about infoboxes and tables. —Joeyconnick (talk) 07:53, 28 December 2016 (UTC)

Joeyconnick, yes, I would tend to agree with your reading for the most part. However, Alex's comment is neither qualified nor obviously in accord with the notion of WP:CONLEVEL. Perhaps he misspoke, or is not aware of the connotation of his comment there? --Izno (talk) 08:00, 28 December 2016 (UTC)

I think you are reading far more into Alex's statement than what he actually said or implied. He obviously couldn't remember the specific discussion that we had here at WT:TV (neither could I, even though I remembered that we had one) and the decision, based on what was said at the time, was that we could continue to use the yyyy-yy format because the MOS allowed for it. --AussieLegend (✉) 08:57, 28 December 2016 (UTC)

Izno, I did not misspeak, but I do think that you are taking the meaning of my post too deeply. Alongside what Aussie said, based upon the consensus of the change, the format that dates are used for television articles remains allowable, and hence should continue to be used as such, so that consistency remains and so mass updates are not necessary. Alex|The|Whovian^? 09:22, 28 December 2016 (UTC)

FTR, I think in any episodes list article that "crosses" the millennium (i.e. includes a 1999–2000) season, we should switch to the XXXX–XXXX format even in this project: having "1994–95" & "1995–96" in headers is fine (and is allowable under MOS:DATERANGE in any case) and would be too much trouble to go through and convert every TV-related article to the new DATERANGE format; but in articles with "1998–99" & "1999–2000" formatting together, it just looks "bad", and I think switching it all to "1998–1999", "1999–2000", etc. format is preferable and more in the spirit of the revised MOS:DATERANGE. FWIW. --IJBall (contribs • talk) 18:22, 28 December 2016 (UTC)

Series regular

Per this edit summary by IJBall, did I miss the term for a series regular becoming "main role" for our purposes here? Series regular is the accepted term in the industry [3] [4] [5] and I believe it is mainstream enough for general understanding by our readers. I have been correcting "main role" or similar, teenage-sounding terms when I see them, but there are perhaps a group of editors actively using alternate terms, so we should probably sort it out. I should add that "recurring", "guest star" or "guest role", and "contract role" or "contract player" (usually for soap operas) seem like the other terms we should be embracing.— TAnthony^Talk 17:45, 28 December 2016 (UTC)

"Series regular" is vague IMO – to be clear, trade publications sometimes use the term "series regular" when what they actually mean is a "recurring role" (I've noticed this on more than one occasion...). "Series regular" seems to be the accepted term to use in regards to (U.S.) daytime soap roles, and I think that's fine there as there's apparently funkiness about "contract" vs. "non-contract" roles on daytime soaps. But for Primetime series, there's generally actors who have a "main role" (i.e. are in the "main cast" and are credited in the show's opening), and those who have "recurring roles" (i.e. are not credited in the show's open, but generally are credited with the "guest cast" of the episode). Because "recurring roles" are often indicated as such in Filmography tables, I think pairing "main role" with "recurring role" is preferable to pairing "series regular" with "recurring role" on the basis of "parallelism in terms". Personally, I don't think "series regular" is "wrong" per se (at least, not always) – I just think it's more vague, and "clunkier"... --IJBall (contribs • talk) 18:16, 28 December 2016 (UTC)

I don't think I have ever seen "series regular" used for a recurring role, and I cited some major publications above that use it properly. Perhaps you have seen a source identify someone as a series regular but the role later turns out to be short term? Do you have any reliable sources that describe a regular cast member on a TV series as a "main role"? This seems very generic to me. Also, US soap lingo appears to be "contract player" for full-time cast. Perhaps this is US vs Canada terminology confusion? I literally believe the exact opposite of what you are saying is true LOL.— TAnthony^Talk 20:19, 28 December 2016 (UTC)

An editor at one of the soap-related artilces once commented sometime that one or more of the soaps (I think it was Y&R) doesn't "publicize" contract vs. non-contract roles, so it was more appropriate to use "regular role" over "contract role". (FWIW.) In terms of the details, I can't remember where or when it happened, but I know sometime in the last year I was confused because one of the trade publications in an article announced that someone was getting a "regular role" on a show (implying a "main credit" role) and it turned out to be a recurring role. Again, this is why I don't like "regular role" – because in certain instances a technically "recurring" (i.e. guest-credited) role could be considered a "regular role" on a series. "Main role" (from the less desirable "main cast" designation) is clearer in my mind in meaning "main credited" – i.e. credited in a show's opening. --IJBall (contribs • talk) 21:01, 28 December 2016 (UTC)

In term of sourcing, you can find trade publications that use the term "main role" (e.g. here, and here: Only hosting for one year, Sparks left for a main role on Showtime’s drama “Queer as Folk,” on which he starred for all five seasons until 2005.; there are also a couple of examples in Entertainment Weekly though they aren't easy to link to as they're part of slideshows...), so it's not unheard of though it's probably less common. As I said, my issue with the term "series regular" is its relative imprecision, and its lack of parallelism with the term "recurring role" and "lead role"... --IJBall (contribs • talk) 21:14, 28 December 2016 (UTC)

Discussion at Template talk:Infobox television episode#Deprecating uppercase parameters

You are invited to join the discussion at Template talk:Infobox television episode#Deprecating uppercase parameters. Discussion is in regards to Wikipedia:Bot requests § Corrections to usages of Template:Infobox television episode. Alex|The|Whovian^? 00:01, 31 December 2016 (UTC)

Question...

I just changed the lead of Deal or No Deal (UK game show) to say that it "is a British Endemol game show hosted by..." rather than "was a British Endemol game show hosted by..."; Is that still the correct thing to do for a cancelled TV show? 2A02:C7D:89A3:F400:8CA3:E254:ABB:3B88 (talk) 01:04, 31 December 2016 (UTC)

Yes, you are correct in your edit. The show still exists even after it's cancellation - the show itself doesn't cease to be simply because it isn't airing anymore. Happy editing. Alex|The|Whovian^? 01:06, 31 December 2016 (UTC)

Thank you for the swift reply! :) 2A02:C7D:89A3:F400:8CA3:E254:ABB:3B88 (talk) 01:07, 31 December 2016 (UTC)

Russell family (Passions) - featured article candidate

I've nominated the article about the episode Russell family (Passions) for Featured Article consideration. This article is about a fictional character on the American soap opera Passions. Comments would be greatly appreciated, at Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Russell family (Passions)/archive1. Thank you for your time. Aoba47 (talk) 15:01, 31 December 2016 (UTC)

DuckTales a fantasy or not

If anyone here is a DuckTales fan like me, please answer this. Does the show and its upcoming reboot series qualifies as a fantasy television series? Someone removed the fantasy genre and the categories from the articles without an explanation. The show doesn't just focus on action, adventure, and mystery, it also focuses on fantasy and science fiction just like Indiana Jones. If any of you have time to look into this situation, please do. If not, then I shall except it as a non-fantasy show. — FilmandTVFan28 (talk) 08:34, 2 January 2017 (UTC)

Is there anything in the show that makes it distinctly fantasy, like magic and spells? Or it purely because the characters are anthromorphic ducks? You can add it back in if it's going to be like Relic Hunter AngusWOOF (bark • sniff) 16:16, 2 January 2017 (UTC)

As with everything on WikiP it does not matter what we think it is - see WP:OR and WP:SYNTH. What matters is what reliable sources state - see WP:CATDEF as well. If you can find sources to support the genre and categories then they can be re-added - if they can't be found then they do not belong in the article. MarnetteD|Talk 17:01, 2 January 2017 (UTC)

(edit conflict) The character Magica De Spell and encounters with her deals with magic and spells, but I wouldn't call one of the prevailing genres for the show "fantasy". I would call it, "Action", "Adventure", and "Mystery". The fantasy elements could be covered elsewhere in the article. - Favre1fan93 (talk) 17:03, 2 January 2017 (UTC)

Additional input on a discussion regarding a cast list

Hi all. Additional voices would be appreciated in the discussion at Talk:Stranger Things (TV series)#Are ALL of the new characters included in the article?. Thanks. - Favre1fan93 (talk) 18:47, 2 January 2017 (UTC)

Discussion at Star Trek: Discovery on cast section formatting

There is currently an RfC at Talk:Star Trek: Discovery#RfC on "Cast and character" formatting that will have an effect on a large number of TV articles, regarding the formatting of 'Cast and characters' sections in which content is moved to a new line after it gets to a certain length. Input from other editors, especially those who have used the disputed formatting at other articles, would be greatly appreciated. - adamstom97 (talk) 21:52, 3 January 2017 (UTC)

Given that the discussion is there and not here, will the RfC dictate the content of only that article, or every television article? I've already given my vote for "for". Perhaps this would be best to raise in the MOS-overhaul discussion (when that section comes up) and get it formally introduced into the MOS. Alex|The|Whovian^? 23:05, 3 January 2017 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Baba Ji Ka Thullu

Hi all, I've opened an AFD about Baba Ji Ka Thullu a hand gesture/catch phrase that originated from the Indian comedy series Comedy Nights with Kapil. If you care to participate, see Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Baba Ji Ka Thullu. Thanks, Cyphoidbomb (talk) 16:13, 6 January 2017 (UTC)

Request for input on merger

I invite you to help build consensus on the proposed merger of M3 (Canadian TV channel) into the Gusto (TV channel) article. Please see Talk:Gusto (TV channel).musimax. (talk) 19:23, 8 January 2017 (UTC)

Joker (character) nominated for deletion

Joker (character) has been nominated for deletion. See Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Joker (character). DarkKnight2149 22:52, 8 January 2017 (UTC)

More eyes needed

Editors from this WikiProject may like to comment on Talk:The Bob Newhart Show#Opening sequence. Beyond My Ken (talk) 04:01, 9 January 2017 (UTC)

Comments on RfC Donald Trump requested

There is currently an RfC about the outcome of the presidential election here. Participation would be appreciated. Thanks. SW3 5DL (talk) 16:58, 14 January 2017 (UTC)

"Absent" cast members on Episodes lists

I've created a discussion about what to do with "Absent" cast members on Episodes lists. Feel free to leave a comment: Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Television#"Absent" cast members on Episodes lists, thanks. -- Wikipedical (talk) 19:57, 16 January 2017 (UTC)

Battlestar Galactica

FYI Cylon B (talk · contribs) has initiated deletion or merger requests for the majority of the Battlestar Galactica articles -- 65.94.168.229 (talk) 06:55, 18 January 2017 (UTC)

Confusion

If a TV series was release on DVD physicallly, then they should've received a press release from their studio. If not, then that title will be billed as a manufacture on demand title that's sold online. So for the last time, stop mistakening the mod titles as actual DVD covers. Several TV shows included a poster or digital cover on the page if their DVD is a mod title. Always check on TVShowsonDVD to see if that DVD is either a physical release or a manufacture on demand title. But don't let that fool you cause there maybe some changes. Look at the eleventh season of It's Always Sunny for an example. It was going to be released on DVD before it was switched to manufacture on demand at the last minute. S hannon434 (talk) 00:32, 19 January 2017 (UTC)

Quality of Firefly (TV series)

I made a recent discussion at Talk:Firefly (TV series) about the quality of the article, Firefly (TV series), which is current the FA. This article may need improvements. I've not yet started the FAR because I can tolerate some time allowance. --George Ho (talk) 00:37, 21 January 2017 (UTC)

List of original programs distributed by Netflix

It would be appreciated if some experienced editors could weigh in at Talk:List of original programs distributed by Netflix on various topics regarding the separation of foreign language television shows, Marvel television shows, etc, etc, etc. --Rob Sinden (talk) 10:48, 23 January 2017 (UTC)

RFC

I've started an RFC at Talk:List of original programs distributed by Netflix#RfC on section breaks for this article. --Rob Sinden (talk) 15:29, 23 January 2017 (UTC)

Links in Infobox television season

I'd like to restart an incomplete discussion that Adamstom.97 started in December 2015, which can be seen at Template talk:Infobox television season/Archive 4 § Other season links, specifically here as it will generate more views and opinions.

Should the usage and documentation of {{Infobox television season}} be updated to allow redirects to be linked as previous/next seasons, when the redirect is to a specific section regarding the previous/next season? As for supporting examples... The infobox at Arrow (season 2) could link Arrow (season 3) as its next season, even though it is a redirect, but it is a redirect to List of Arrow episodes#Season 3 (2014–15), a specific section regarding Season 3. However, the infobox at Vikings (season 4) shouldn't link Vikings (season 5) as its next season, as the latter article redirects to List of Vikings episodes, with no such specific section for Season 5. Thoughts? Alex|The|Whovian^? 03:35, 25 January 2017 (UTC)

Support We should be guiding readers to the content if it exists, even if only as sections of LoEs. However, the Vikings example is correct, as we should not link to season 5 content since none yet exists. If/when it does, then the link should appear in the infobox. - Favre1fan93 (talk) 04:34, 25 January 2017 (UTC)

Support As was my thinking when I started this discussion, our guidelines allow a new section at a LoEs if the content warrants it, so if we have a season 1 article and then enough content for a season 2 LoE section, it seems logical to link between those sets of content. - adamstom97 (talk) 04:57, 25 January 2017 (UTC)

Draft:List of Meet The Press episodes

Anyone want to help with the article Draft:List of Meet The Press episodes? I'm not entirely certain that this would really merit an article, given how many episodes the series has had (over 10K!) but I thought it should at least get looked at by someone who is more familiar with and into TV related articles. Tokyogirl79 (｡◕‿◕｡) 15:31, 25 January 2017 (UTC)

Crimes That Shook Britain page title

The page for "Crimes That Shook Britain" is incorrectly titled "Crimes That Shook Great Britain". Can this be changed please?:

[[6]] OSM76 (talk) 16:09, 26 January 2017 (UTC)

 Done - X201 (talk) 16:17, 26 January 2017 (UTC)

Notification of RM discussion

Greetings! I have recently relisted a requested move discussion at Talk:MTV Italy#Requested move 20 January 2017, regarding a page relating to this WikiProject. Discussion and opinions are invited. Thanks, JudgeRM (talk to me) 20:21, 28 January 2017 (UTC)

Move discussion at Template:Plot

See Template talk:Plot#Requested move 22 January 2017. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 03:17, 29 January 2017 (UTC)

The discussion has been extended for another week. Daß Wölf 18:10, 31 January 2017 (UTC)

Next MOS:TV discussion on TVCAST has begun

The next discussion in the MOS:TV text overhaul, on WP:TVCAST, has begun. You can find its discussion, here. Please join! - Favre1fan93 (talk) 04:34, 2 February 2017 (UTC)

created page

Hi! I'm a new user. I'm creating a page for Elementary Season 1. Can anyone let me know how I'm doing? Maybe help me a out a little? Thanks!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Draft:Elementary:_Season_1 — Preceding unsigned comment added by Anderson678999 (talk • contribs) 10:33, 11 February 2017 (UTC)

I made some format adjustments, but otherwise it looks to be in good shape overall. - Favre1fan93 (talk) 17:38, 11 February 2017 (UTC)

Drawn Together-related pages

What to do about pages related to Drawn Together? A page, List of Drawn Together characters, may need improvements, like trimming and reorganizing. Also, the redirect pages from Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2008 December 25 may need to be re-evaluated before re-creating them, i.e. WP:DRV. --George Ho (talk) 02:47, 13 February 2017 (UTC)

Reorder Infobox episode parameters

Hi all. I've put in a request to have the order of some of the parameters in Template:Infobox television episode be rearranged to a more logical order. A patrolling template editor suggested the community weigh in on the request, so please comment on it if you choose. You can find my request here. - Favre1fan93 (talk) 17:30, 13 February 2017 (UTC)

Sarap TV

Would someone from WP:TV mind taking a look at Sarap TV? It was added in 2010, but has yet to have been assessed. No reliable sources are cited in support of any of the article content and I'm not sure if it meets WP:TVSHOW. Thanks in advance. -- Marchjuly (talk) 01:33, 10 February 2017 (UTC)

I've reviewed this and PRODed per lack of notability and verifiability. -- Whats new?^(talk) 23:57, 13 February 2017 (UTC)

Thank you Whats new? for taking a look at this. -- Marchjuly (talk) 00:08, 14 February 2017 (UTC)

CfD notice

Hi. Two television-related category trees have been nominated for renaming, Category:Television programs by country and Category:Television programming by language. Please see the discussion here and here. Thank you. --Paul_012 (talk) 19:03, 15 February 2017 (UTC)

WP:NCTV updates

I've started a new discussion over at Wikipedia_talk:Naming_conventions_(television)#Updating_the_text_and_examples in the hopes of updating WP:NCTV to match some of examples and instances discussed in the recent MOS section discussion (here). The section at the MOS and NCTV currently do not match, nor have similar examples (or indepth ones as the MOS section alludes to), so since the MOS discussion came to a consensus, we should make those changes to NCTV. Please join the discussion over at that talk if you're interested in helping. Thanks. - Favre1fan93 (talk) 05:28, 17 February 2017 (UTC)

O.J.: Made in America - Film or Miniseries?

There is currently a dispute at O.J.: Made in America whether it should be listed as a single documentary film, or a five-part miniseries. This project and WP:FILM have been notified to the discussion, which can be found on its talk page, here. - Favre1fan93 (talk) 02:38, 20 February 2017 (UTC)

Discussion at Talk:Vikings (TV series)#RFC for linking in the Cast section

You are invited to join the discussion at Talk:Vikings (TV series)#RFC for linking in the Cast section. Alex|The|Whovian^? 06:33, 22 February 2017 (UTC)

Got What It Takes Season 2

Hi can you please make a page for it Snowyday (talk) 20:04, 22 February 2017 (UTC)

Discussion at Talk:List of 'Til Death episodes#Listings for seasons 3–4 appears arbitrary and WP:OR

You are invited to join the discussion at Talk:List of 'Til Death episodes#Listings for seasons 3–4 appears arbitrary and WP:OR. --IJBall (contribs • talk) 18:47, 23 February 2017 (UTC)

Awards consistency

At WP:FILMMOS, the MOS indicates that, in order to prevent indiscriminate lists of trivial, non-notable awards, that only awards with demonstrated notability, i.e., a Wikipedia article, be included in articles. Is this worth exploring for WP:TV's MOS? --Tenebrae (talk) 21:53, 20 February 2017 (UTC)

@Tenebrae: The WP:TVMOS is currently undergoing a section by section rewrite, so it would be entirely appropriate to bring up when the Reception section is discussed. -- Whats new?^(talk) 21:35, 23 February 2017 (UTC)

Thanks, @Whats new?: (Love your Wiki-handle!) I'll keep an eye out. --Tenebrae (talk) 22:24, 23 February 2017 (UTC)

Bye Bye Birdie Live! nominated for deletion

Bye Bye Birdie Live!, an article about a live production scheduled for broadcast in December 2017, has been nominated for deletion. All editors are invited to participate in the discussion at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Bye Bye Birdie Live!. --AussieLegend (✉) 07:32, 28 February 2017 (UTC)

Update to TVMOS changes

There is now a proposal for final wording to be added to the TVMOS as part of the ongoing updates to it. You can view and discuss the proposal here -- Whats new?^(talk) 02:39, 3 March 2017 (UTC)

[year] in [country] television article creation/deletion discussion at ANI

There is a discussion going on at ANI about a user who created a whole lot of [year] in [country] television articles. There are issues with the editor that aren't relevant to this noticeboard, but likewise there's discussion of content that isn't relevant to that noticeboard. It looks like it may or may not head to another venue, but the deletion of all articles of such a format has been mentioned. Since these seem like fairly innocuous navigational articles for this WikiProject, participants may want to take a look: Wikipedia:Administrators'_noticeboard/Incidents#Mass_creation_of_mostly_empty_articles. — Rhododendrites ^talk \\ 16:09, 5 March 2017 (UTC)

Glee discography split

Members of this WikiProject might be interested in a proposal I've started here. Snuggums (talk / edits) 19:32, 5 March 2017 (UTC)

Real-world perspective for plot summaries

Opinions are needed on the following matter: Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Writing about fiction#Real-world perspective for plot summaries. A permalink for it is here. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 15:13, 7 March 2017 (UTC)

Multinational co-prod.

Shouldn't there be a consistent rule on multinational television co-production? Here's what was I thinking.

• Miraculous: Tales of Ladybug & Cat Noir, a French-South Korean co-production

  Fact

  • The production of Miraculous is led by French companies Zagtoon and Method Amimation
  • What SAMG in South Korea did was essentially animation services, but the company also represents the show there. The Korean dub is simply a translation
  • Toei Animation co-produced the anime-ish pilot with Zag, but was withdrawn when the series' production began - Toei had their exec. prods credited though
  • The production was also supported by broadcasters TF1 (France) and EBS (South Korea), SK Broadband (South Korean telco), and Disney France.

  Solution

  • Broadcast: aside from English-language broadcasts, details about the broadcasts in France and South Korea must be given
  • Individual episodes: English and French titles must be given, Korean title must not. South Korean air date may given as a footnote only if it precedes France.
  • Characters: Character names and voices in French and English versions need to be given, those in Korean version need not.

So, how the rules above could be applied to other international co-produced shows, like other examples below?

• Tickety Toc, a British-South Korean co-production
  • While the series and characters were created animated by FunnyFlux in South Korea, its episodes were written by the writers hired by The Foundation in the UK, and were first recorded in English
  • Supported by KOCCA, EBS and CJ E&M in South Korea and Nickelodeon in the United States, in association with High 1 Entertainment in South Korea
• Super Wings, a South Korean-Chinese-American co-production
  • The episodes were written by South Korean writers at FunnyFlux and American writers at Little Airplane, but they were apparently recorded in English first
  • The show was animated by FunnyFlux in South Korea and Qianqi in China
  • The work was supported by EBS and CJ E&M in South Korea, with additional support from KOCCA
  • Super Wings was first shown in South Korea, and later in the United States and China
  • While not credited in the TV series, Alpha in China (known for its Auldey brand of toys) has the master toy license
• Rainbow Ruby, a South Korean-Chinese-Canadian co-production
  • The production seems to be led by CJ E&M in South Korea
  • The studios 38°C in South Korea and China Entertainment Corp. in China animated all the scenes
  • The episodes were written by the writers hired by DHX Media in Canada, and were first recorded in English. DHX also did the post production.
  • Canadian air dates precede South Korean dates, with Chinese dates yet to be confirmed.

Also, is there anything to add or fix to the rules? Anyway, hope we have a consistent solution. JSH-alive/^{talk/cont/mail} 14:42, 8 March 2017 (UTC)

We could use "(country of origin) multinational" as with corporations like Apple Computer and Intel. Or if there truly isn't an originating country, use multinational by itself in the lead sentence. As with what we did with Miraculous, the companies involved are described in the follow-up sentences in the lead paragraphs as well as the production sections. AngusWOOF (bark • sniff) 18:16, 8 March 2017 (UTC)

Per updated text at WP:TVLEAD, If the nationality is not singular or unclear (e.g., produced by both American and British productions companies, as with Sherlock), omit the information from the introductory sentence and cover the different national interests later in the lead section. Is this what you are questioning? I'm not super clear if I understand what you are hoping to have clarified. - Favre1fan93 (talk) 23:47, 8 March 2017 (UTC)

New TV script

New script at User:AlexTheWhovian/script-updateepisodes, if anyone wants to use it. Description:

• User:Alex 21/script-updateepisodes.js is a script that updates a television of list-of-episodes page when the most recent episode airs. It updates |num_episodes= in {{Infobox television}}, |RTitle= in {{Episode list}}, and the date in {{Aired episodes}}.

— Preceding unsigned comment added by AlexTheWhovian (talk • contribs) 02:34, 8 September 2016 (UTC)

Discussion at Talk:X-Men (film series)#Headers for upcoming films

You are invited to join the discussion at Talk:X-Men (film series)#Headers for upcoming films. Alex|The|Whovian^? 06:40, 9 March 2017 (UTC)

Sasural Simar Ka

I beg you. Could some of you pleeeease add Sasural Simar Ka to your watchlists? That Indian TV article is a glorious wall of mess and it's among the worst I've ever seen. Look at the cast list.

• Dipika Kakar as Simar Prem Bhardwaj/Padhmavati/Sunaina Vikrant Mehta(Fake)/Simar Jamnalal Dwivedi(2011– ) (Main female lead)

What does fake mean here? Why are there so many slashes?

• Jyotsna Chandola as Khushi Sankalp Bharadwaj/Billo Rani/K.B./Rani/Veeru ki Jaan/Sonia Oberoi(Fake)(2012-)(Main Female Antagonist)

How could Jyotsna Chandola be the "Main Female Antagonist" if this person presumably played six roles? Which role does the label apply to? But that's just the start... I've been encountering this super-bizarre method of delivering Indian cast lists since about mid-2016. There are tons of problems, like the obsession with telling readers who is male and female. What is the obsession with parentheticals? Obviously "antagonist" and "protagonist" are interpretive and are being misused anyway. How can a character be supporting, but also a protagonist? Someone's confused with heroes and villains maybe. Introduction of "Former cast" section. Why are supernatural characters listed separately? This is all part of what I've been calling the Campaign of Ignorance. Any efforts to de-crap this article would be greatly appreciated. Cyphoidbomb (talk) 15:00, 12 March 2017 (UTC)

Big Ear Tutu

Would someone mind taking a look at Big Ear Tutu? It's been unsourced since it was created back in 2015 (the only external link provided is to YouTube which appears to be dead and may have been removed as a copyvio), so it's not clear if WP:TVSHOW is satisfied. It is quite possible that sources for the show can be found in Chinese, but not sure how to find them. -- Marchjuly (talk) 01:05, 10 March 2017 (UTC)

Marchjuly I wonder if this is not the sort of thing that maybe someone from the reference desk might be able to help with. Or from WikiProject China? Trouble is that even if we Google the Chinese show name 大耳朵图图 it's still hard to locate reliable sources. Google News is just as confusing. To me anyway. Cyphoidbomb (talk) 15:05, 12 March 2017 (UTC)

Thank you for taking a look Cyphoidbomb. I'll also try WikiProject China. -- Marchjuly (talk) 21:19, 12 March 2017 (UTC)

GAR

Members of this project might be interested in Wikipedia:Good article reassessment/Demi Lovato/1. Snuggums (talk / edits) 01:08, 17 March 2017 (UTC)

Little Einsteins

An unregistered user keeps replacing the end date on Little Einsteins with present. Reruns don't count. — FilmandTVFan28 (talk) 00:35, 20 March 2017 (UTC)

Page protection has already been requested. -- Alex^TW 00:37, 20 March 2017 (UTC)

Thank you. — FilmandTVFan28 (talk) 00:41, 20 March 2017 (UTC)

Discussion regarding TVPRODUCTION changes now open

As part of the ongoing updates to MOS:TV, the discussion on WP:TVPRODUCTION has now begun. Please add any thoughts or comments to the discussion, which you can find, here. - Favre1fan93 (talk) 03:21, 26 March 2017 (UTC)

"Former cast"

Hey guys, I'm curious what you all think of this maintenance template I added at 4 O'Clock Club, specifically the argument behind it. Over the past year I've seen an increase of cast/character subsections titled "Former cast" or similar, and it's been a special type of headache in Indian TV articles. I'm of the opinion that we still have an academic interest in knowing whether a cast/character was part of the main or recurring cast, and stuffing the cast/characters into what is effectively a discard pile doesn't seem particularly helpful to me. I figure the editors are trying to keep the presentation of cast/characters as current as possible, but is staying current as important as presenting a clear history of the series? Thoughts are appreciated. Regards, Cyphoidbomb (talk) 17:38, 26 March 2017 (UTC)

For another example of what Cyphoidbomb is talking about, please see Rogue (TV series) (and my objection to doing that here). I also think that doing this "current" and "former" cast/characters things should be explicitly deprecated by the WP:TV project... --IJBall (contribs • talk) 17:41, 26 March 2017 (UTC)

I would support such a deprecation. Cyphoidbomb (talk) 17:59, 26 March 2017 (UTC)

"Former" should definitely not be used per TVCAST. If they are no longer a part of the "current" cast, they shouldn't be moved out to a separate subsection. - Favre1fan93 (talk) 21:30, 26 March 2017 (UTC)

I'd like to take this opportunity to strongly recommend that editors familiarise themselves with Cyphoidbomb's page. This is but one of many issues in Indian TV articles, which form the bulk of entires in Category:Pages using infobox television with unknown parameters. Almost every one that I see includes the issues that Cyphoidbomb has summarised. --AussieLegend (✉) 22:50, 26 March 2017 (UTC)

Was not aware of Cyphoid's page or the apparent wide-spread issues on Indian-related articles. I've seen Cyphoid post here regarding Indian television articles, but I didn't realize it went as deep as it did. - Favre1fan93 (talk) 03:53, 27 March 2017 (UTC)

They do a lot of weird things over in the Indian TV-related articles. Another thing they do is the insistence upon the inclusion of things like 'Director' and 'TV network' columns in WP:FILMBIO WP:FILMOGRAPHYs despite the fact that both are considered to be very non-standard everywhere else. As a result, I generally stay away from those types of articles as, 1) it's too much work to clean them up, and 2) I'm just not knowledgeable enough on the various subjects to be much of a real help... --IJBall (contribs • talk) 12:37, 27 March 2017 (UTC)

I think that in a lot of cases, unchecked problematic content propagates to other articles like a virus. The example of this is in my Campaign of Ignorance page, where a user, Arnav19, (and it was probably partly due to language issues) did not quite understand how the various infobox parameters should be used, or what sorts of content should be in articles. He was also super-prolific, and nobody was aware he was creating problematic content for years. This perfect storm of ignorance and independence problably resulted in hundreds of articles with scores of problems each. Then, other editors started erroneously un-fixing improvements to these articles, which is what my Campaign of Ignorance generally represents--the conforming of articles to a totally non-intuitive template that doesn't represent the community's interests at all. The major problem is that there's no community oversight. The strong Indian editors who donate time to entertainment articles typically focus on film, not TV, and the general TV editors tend to just not be interested in Indian stuff or the problems that go along with it. So, I dunno what to do. If I decide that I just don't care and move on, the virus will spread and the content will get shittier. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ Cyphoidbomb (talk) 14:52, 27 March 2017 (UTC)

Proposal at WP:NCTV to harmonize the text of WP:NCTV with MOS:TV

As a result of the discussion above, there is a discussion on a proposal to harmonize the text at WP:NCTV with the text at MOS:TV#Naming conventions. Please add any thoughts or comments to the discussion on this proposal, which can be found, here. Thank you. --IJBall (contribs • talk) 21:08, 27 March 2017 (UTC)

List of Entourage (U.S. TV series) episodes

On January 3, Paine Ellsworth moved List of Entourage episodes to List of Entourage (U.S. TV series) episodes with the edit summary "to disambiguate from the Korean TV series of the same name". The issue here is that Entourage (South Korean TV series) only ran one season and does not have a dedicated List of Entourage (South Korean TV series) episodes article, and thus under WP:NCTV the added disambiguation of the U.S. series' episodes list article is unneeded here. Is this correct?... I'm soliciting opinion on this here, rather than making any unilateral moves back to the original title on my own. Thanks in advance. --IJBall (contribs • talk) 16:40, 25 March 2017 (UTC)

Clearly an unnecessary move. If it's felt necessary a hatnote could be added. --AussieLegend (✉) 17:00, 25 March 2017 (UTC)

Thanks. Still waiting to see if Paine, or anyone else, has a comment. But if I haven't heard anything more in the 24 hours after posting this, I'll go ahead and move it back. --IJBall (contribs • talk) 01:51, 26 March 2017 (UTC)

Perhaps it was unnecessary; however, I was just following what I saw at Entourage (disambiguation), where the two Entourage articles are parenthetically disambiguated... Entourage (U.S. TV series) and Entourage (South Korean TV series). So if there is no appropriate and important need to follow and match the disambiguation in the list's associated article, then by all means do as you wish.  Paine Ellsworth  ^put'r there  13:03, 26 March 2017 (UTC)

PS. Per WP:NCTV: "If the main series page title was disambiguated from other entertainment properties (TV series, film, novel, etc.), the same should be used in all related list page titles." PS left by  Paine Ellsworth  ^put'r there 

I'd like to hear from Favre1fan93, as they've been the one to work on WP:NCTV the most recently, before moving it back – Favre1fan93, what's your opinion on this?... --IJBall (contribs • talk) 16:44, 26 March 2017 (UTC)

My thoughts were similar to that of IJBall and AussieLegend's, given what was done perviously with The Flash (2014 TV series) and List of The Flash episodes (since the 1990 series does not have an LoE). However, consensus here states otherwise, that, with The Flash example, it should be List of The Flash (2014 TV series) episodes. See also two discussions below the one I linked that too. - Favre1fan93 (talk) 16:55, 26 March 2017 (UTC)

@Favre1fan93 and AussieLegend: Do we need to have a more formal WP:TV-wide discussion about this, then? Perhaps a formal RfC? (Especially in light of the fact that List of The Flash (2014 TV series) episodes has been moved back to List of The Flash episodes? – See also this current RM discussion where consensus again seems to be that the extra disambiguation is necessary in cases like this one...) I'm not sure I had an opinion on this question in May 2016, but my current opinion on this issue is that disambiguation like this for episodes lists article should only be used when needed, which means that I think the current wording of WP:NCTV that Paine Ellsworth quotes above needs to be changed (again!)... (Also, is there anything in the more general WP:NC that prevents this project from doing that?...) --IJBall (contribs • talk) 17:19, 26 March 2017 (UTC)

I have to say, if I don't hear any more on this, I am really tempted to remove that line from WP:NCTV – I don't think that the May 2016 discussion demonstrates proper consensus for including that line in NCTV, and recent precedent (like the RM discussion I linked to above, as well as The Flash example) seems to point in exactly the opposite direction. --IJBall (contribs • talk) 21:57, 26 March 2017 (UTC)

I've been confused about this in the past as well, and I've seen it done both ways. I'd like to see it explicitly mentioned in NCTV -- Whats new?^(talk) 22:11, 26 March 2017 (UTC)

@IJBall: I tried making edits to NCTV to reflect wording and examples like The Flash currently, but those were overturned, due to the discussion on the talk page that I liked to previously. So I think we should have another discussion on this matter to really clarify if extra dab info should be used all the time, or only when there is an additional conflicting article (ie the Scream Queens example on NCTV). - Favre1fan93 (talk) 03:47, 27 March 2017 (UTC)

Also the wording used at Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style/Television#Naming_conventions created from the recent discussion is in direct contradiction to the wording at NCTV. The MOS section supports "The Flash method" (as I'll call it), while NCTV supports the "Scream Queens method". So I think we definitely need to clear this up and unify both of these sections, to whatever is determined. - Favre1fan93 (talk) 03:50, 27 March 2017 (UTC)

@Favre1fan93: I'm game! – where do we need to have it? Is this discussion enough? Or do we need to have it over at WT:NCTV? And, either way, does it need to be a "formal" 30-day WP:RfC? Or will a Talk page discussion like this be enough?... FWIW, recent "precendent" really seems to be favoring the MOS method over the NCTV one. --IJBall (contribs • talk) 03:52, 27 March 2017 (UTC)

We should probably have the discussion over at WT:NCTV, linking here as the spark for this discussion, plus the discussion we had for the MOS section. I don't think we need an RfC just yet; the talk discussion should suffice as long as we have enough input and can gain a clear consensus. And we should put a notice to this new discussion here and on the MOS talk to attract interested users, because I'm sure not as many watch NCTV as the project and MOS talks. - Favre1fan93 (talk) 03:55, 27 March 2017 (UTC)

Probably a good idea to notify WT:TITLE as well -- Whats new?^(talk) 04:43, 27 March 2017 (UTC)

OK, if someone doesn't get to it before me, I will try to start up a topic on this over at WT:NCTV this afternoon... --IJBall (contribs • talk) 12:33, 27 March 2017 (UTC)

 Done. As per the notice further down this Talk page, there is now a discussion on a proposal to change the text at WP:NCTV as outlined in this discussion – here. Please feel free to comment over there. --IJBall (contribs • talk) 21:11, 27 March 2017 (UTC)

P.S. Does anyone think it's necessary to also post a notice about this over at WP:VPR? --IJBall (contribs • talk) 21:16, 27 March 2017 (UTC)

Actor name change

At Neeli (TV series), an actor is saying that he's changed his name and instead of being credited as Naveen as indicated by this source, he wants to be credited as Navin Victor. Any thoughts here? At Thinner (novel) we credit Stephen King, although the book credits his pen name, Richard Bachman. I don't know what the community preference is on this. Thanks. Cyphoidbomb (talk) 03:10, 30 March 2017 (UTC)

PBS Kids

An IP editor makes small edits on many pages about TV stations; no edit summaries. At a quick glance, most of the edits are not reverted, although the IP has been previously warned and blocked for disruption. A couple of days ago the IP removed PBS Kids from the KBDI-TV infobox ('affiliations') and added it to RMPBS (KRMA-TV, Denver) infobox and did the same at Template:Denver TV. I restored to KBDI infobox, after seeing PBS Kids logo (this one: File:PBS_Kids_Logo.svg) on KBDI website. IP today has again removed it from KBDI infobox. Anyone know the official status of PBS Kids at those two stations? DonFB (talk) 01:01, 31 March 2017 (UTC)

List of Cast worked in Kasautii Zindagii Kay

Procedural question: What's the standard formatting for a cast list title like this? I know we usually do List of SpongeBob SquarePants characters if it's a character list, just curious what the standard formatting is for a cast list. List of SpongeBob SquarePants cast? Obviously List of Cast worked in Kasautii Zindagii Kay ain't right. Thanks. Cyphoidbomb (talk) 01:15, 2 April 2017 (UTC)

Infobox problem

Here Comes Honey Boo Boo appeared in Category:Pages using infobox television with unknown parameters after this vandalism but I can't for the life of me work out why it's still there. I've even replaced the infobox with a fresh copy but that didn't fix it. It appears ok in preview, but as soon as I save it, the article is back in the category. Can somebody please look at the article and see if they can fix it? --AussieLegend (✉) 00:26, 2 April 2017 (UTC)

@AussieLegend: Could this be one of those situations where the server has to purge the cached page or something? See this query of mine at VPT. I deleted it, but PrimeHunter explained that the problem I experienced had to do with a delay in the server cache. Hope it helps. Cyphoidbomb (talk) 01:21, 2 April 2017 (UTC)

Hmm, I tried adding "?action=purge" to the end of the Honey Boo Boo url and clicked Yes. I still see it at the cat page. Cyphoidbomb (talk) 01:24, 2 April 2017 (UTC)

LOL. I didn't even see the second infobox. --AussieLegend (✉) 01:33, 2 April 2017 (UTC)

What do you know, I solved something technical for you for a change. :) Cyphoidbomb (talk) 01:34, 2 April 2017 (UTC)

I have told you before that you were quite capable of doing so. Good work. --AussieLegend (✉) 01:39, 2 April 2017 (UTC)

"<year> television seasons" categories continue to be problematic

See also: Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Television/Archive 19 § Category:2015 television seasons, and User talk:BrownHairedGirl § Category:2018 television seasons

Back in 2014 I raised the issue of Category:2015 television seasons, which was being populated well before 2015 had arrived. The criteria for inclusion in this and related categories is "television seasons that have aired at least one episode in <year>". These categories continue to be problematic. Category:2016 television seasons existed in 2014 and was being populated early in 2015, Category:2017 television seasons was deleted in March and April 2016 after being prematurely populated. Cyphoidbomb kindly create protected the cat until 1 January 2017 and this significantly reduced the articles being added until then. Category:2018 television seasons was created in March this year, was deleted after I emptied it, and then recreated 5 days later after this article was added to it. I raised this with BrownHairedGirl, the admin who restored the cat. In the subsequent discussion she suggested that a solution might be to do as the video game project has done, which would mean using "Category:Upcoming television seasons scheduled for 2018" as a subcat of Category:2018 television seasons. When episodes finally aired, they would be moved into the parent category. I was wondering what everyone thinks of this? --AussieLegend (✉) 01:26, 2 April 2017 (UTC)

I'm definitely not a fan of all the WP:CRYSTAL stuff that gets added to Wikipedia. The farther out something is announced, the less likely it is to happen as described, so I think pre-emptively populating a <year> category before we've even reached that year, let alone before the thing has actually happened in that year, is a big mistake and something to avoid. As I saw someone refer to recently, we're not on a deadline. I don't think the subcategory approach is a good one, either... it still leaves us with the problem of the category existing before we are sure it will be populated and by what. IF (and I don't think we necessarily should have one) there is a category for future seasons in a future year, I'd rather just have people use "Category:Upcoming television seasons scheduled for 2018" and then change that to "Category:2018 television seasons" when there are legitimate entries (deleting the "upcoming" category). At the end of the day, an encyclopedia is supposed to represent the present and past, not speculate on the future, however well-sourced that future may be. —Joeyconnick (talk) 02:02, 2 April 2017 (UTC)

Would it be worth considering entertaining a situation similar to what WP:FILM uses for their release dates? Doing so would require a little reworking of our guidelines (as I'll explain) but it might help. At the film project, it is requested that the infobox use {{Film date}} for release date info. This template will auto populate an article into categories depending on the date(s) given. The template basically does this: if you put the date May 25, 2016, it will auto add the cat Category:2016 in film. If it is May 25, 2017, it will auto add the cat Category:Upcoming films and Category:2017 in film. Once Wikipedia servers turn to May 25, 2017, the upcoming cat is no longer auto-added to the article. Recent consensus was to include both the upcoming and year cats for upcomIng releases, but if we wanted to adopt this, we could only use an upcoming cat. Now as I said before, if we want to use this method, we would have to update our guidelines to allow start dates into the infobox before said release date, because the created template would need to be in use for this auto adding to happen. - Favre1fan93 (talk) 04:54, 2 April 2017 (UTC)

Per CRYSTAL, we would not consider it a CRYSTAL case of considering that there will be shows in the 2018 television season, or even 2019 or 2020 (barring some major catastrophe that affects the entire world). So there's no issue about having those cats, they will have every reasonably likelihood to exist. But as noted, at the VG project we have a separate set of cats for Upcoming games, which are used when we have a confirmation of a release window for a title, not speculation (undated games just get "Upcoming video games" without a year). Games do get shifted between these as appropriate, until their release , at which point they're put into the proper year category. I think this project could do the same without any real harm. ( The FILM suggestion also works too). --MASEM (t) 14:23, 3 April 2017 (UTC)

TV related category renames without involving this project

I just discovered a couple of CfDs at Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2017 February 14 that have had no input from this project. One, renaming Category:Television programs by country to Category:Television shows by country has conlcluded while the other, which proposes renaming Category:Television programming by language and several other categories is still underway. In previous discussions here, we have held that "series", "program" and "programme" are more appropriate than "show", so these renames are inconsistent with that. --AussieLegend (✉) 13:56, 3 April 2017 (UTC)

I was just reading that CfD myself, it is annoying that no one involved the project and especially that such a giant change was made with only the support/input from two editors, as "uncontroversial" as they believed it to be.— TAnthony^Talk 14:31, 3 April 2017 (UTC)

I had posted here on this project talk page when the CfD was initiated, but unfortunately the message seems to have slipped through without anybody noticing. I don't feel strongly about the issue, and would appreciate further input from TV project members. Perhaps the discussion could be re-opened if enough people agree. --Paul_012 (talk) 15:05, 3 April 2017 (UTC)

Hey thanks for doing your due diligence by notifying the project, looks like we dropped the ball ;) — TAnthony^Talk 18:03, 3 April 2017 (UTC)

Discussion at Talk:Doctor Who#Pearl Mackie: now or when?

You are invited to join the discussion at Talk:Doctor Who#Pearl Mackie: now or when?. This is concerning a main issue that WP:TV experiences; when to add someone to the infobox who has not yet been credited. -- Alex^TW 17:51, 7 April 2017 (UTC)

Image galleries in the prose section

There is a discussion at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Animation regarding the use of image galleries of cast members. --AussieLegend (✉) 02:17, 8 April 2017 (UTC)

Episode list sublist template

A proposition concerning the template "Episode list" template, or rather more specifically, {{Episode list/sublist}}.

The usage of the sublist template is to use {{Episode list/sublist|Destination for transclusion}} (that is, the article that episodes are being transcluded to). However, the template as it stands only allows transclusion of the episode table to one article where the summaries are hidden. If we want to transclude the table to any other article, the episode summaries are not hidden. Do note, I'm not sure if there's a reason to do that at this current moment, but a reason may arise eventually. Possibly when we're modifying an article in a sandbox, one that has transcluded tables?

What I am proposing is that the usage of the template be modified, so that the template call uses {{Episode list/sublist|Location of episode table}} (that is, the article that episodes are being transcluded from), and transclusion to any article that isn't declared as the primary article in the template call automatically hides the summaries, therefore allowing summary-hidden transclusion to any number of articles.

Example: Daredevil (season 1) currently uses {{Episode list/sublist|Daredevil (TV series)}}, where the episode table is then transcluded to Daredevil (TV series), where the edit summaries are hidden. The proposition means that Daredevil (season 1) should use {{Episode list/sublist|Daredevil (season 1)}}, so that the episode summaries only appear on Daredevil (season 1), and transclusion to anywhere else hides the summaries, as per the default, but this would apply to any article that the episode table is transcluded to.

I simply believe that this would be a more practical use of the template. Thoughts? -- Alex^TW 11:23, 20 March 2017 (UTC)

In theory this sounds like a good idea, because if we're transcluding the episode table, we want to do it without the summaries. Are there examples where we would need to transclude the table to multiple locations though? Also, in your investigation of this Alex, did you come across any discussions or such for why it was determined to make the page after the slash the transclude to article? - Favre1fan93 (talk) 16:43, 20 March 2017 (UTC)

Sounds like an overall good idea but if we're talking future uses, maybe a good approach would be to allow the display/non-display of the summaries via an explicit parameter (with the default being to hide them if the parameter is not set)? That would make the template more useful in a general sense. Maybe in the future we will want to transclude with summaries showing by default? Kinda like templates where you can specify whether they are collapsed or not, but they have a default state if that parameter is not specified? —Joeyconnick (talk) 19:17, 20 March 2017 (UTC)

I'm sorry, but I don't see the point. When do we ever transclude episode lists to more than one article? I've been editing TV articles for 10 years now and I've never seen it done. This seems to be change for the sake of making change and for no other purpose. --AussieLegend (✉) 21:27, 20 March 2017 (UTC)

@Favre1fan93: I don't believe so. The sublist template, per its history, was actually based upon {{Japanese episode list/sublist}} by a now-deleted user, so I can't view their contribution history to see the initial request. The Japanese episode sublist was created in a user's sandbox, where this edit implemented the usage of the parameter after the slash, so I believe it was simply at the discretion of another editor.

@Joeyconnick: I'm not sure how this would work. If the original episode list has the parameter set, then any transclusions of that same episode table would have that same parameter set; you can't "unset" it in a transclusion. At least, that's my thought on it, I might be reading into your suggestion wrong?

I was thinking of how if you're including a template in multiple pages, like say Template:TransLink Services, you can specify its initial visibility. By default, the "SkyTrain" section is visible but, depending on what parameters you include, you can have all its subsections expanded or collapsed. But I guess that's when you're transcluding a template, not an entire page where certain content is marked as okay for transclusion and other content is marked as "don't transclude," so maybe that's a different case. And I guess in the case I'm mentioning, you're still transcluding all the content, just selectively choosing what is displayed. But anyway, just from a logic perspective, I think it makes sense to make the change you are proposing... the way things are currently is unnecessarily limiting and isn't extensible. —Joeyconnick (talk) 01:20, 21 March 2017 (UTC)

I understand what you mean. However, that's taking a template and passing it option parameters in its use. This is taking a template, passing it option parameters in its use, and then transclusing an identical copy of that template to another page, so the parameters that apply in its first usage (for example, to hide the summaries) would apply in the transclusion of its usage. I do definitely agree with you on your last sentence; the option to make the parameter the article being transcluded to was on the opinion of a single editor, and needs to be updated for modern usages. -- Alex^TW 13:50, 23 March 2017 (UTC)

@AussieLegend: At the current time, mostly sandboxes; for example, when I copy List of Doctor Who serials into User:AlexTheWhovian/sandbox3, if I were planning to do some mass edits to the article, and I want to make sure I've worked on it properly in a sandbox before implementing it, you can see that all of the episode summaries are displayed, as the tables are not transcluded to the article declared in the sublist call. Implementing this proposition would mean that the summaries are only displayed on the initial article, allowing the correct view of the article from anywhere. -- Alex^TW 23:51, 20 March 2017 (UTC)

Are there any other objections to this? -- Alex^TW 13:50, 23 March 2017 (UTC)

Let's try a small test case first for a bit, before we do wide-spread adjustments if possible. - Favre1fan93 (talk) 17:42, 23 March 2017 (UTC)

Already done, per the module's sandbox (diff), and the module's testcases and my sandbox. -- Alex^TW 23:18, 23 March 2017 (UTC)

If there's no further issues with this, I'm going to put in a request for a bot to do a search-and-replace to update articles accordingly, directly after I update the module code, and then the module documentation. -- Alex^TW 03:11, 30 March 2017 (UTC)

I'm still a little confused over this. Based on your first post it seems that you're proposing all articles will use a different syntax to that used now. At Foo (season x) the syntax will be {{Episode list/sublist|Foo (season x)}}. Is that correct? If so, it seems rather redundant. Why wouldn't you just use {{Episode list/sublist}}? --AussieLegend (✉) 05:57, 30 March 2017 (UTC)

Yes, that is correct. And the reason is transclusion. If the first parameter in {{Episode list/sublist|Foo (season x)}} (Foo (season x)) matches the article title at Foo (season x) (it does), then the summaries are displayed, else if the first parameter in {{Episode list/sublist|Foo (season x)}} does not match the article title at List of Foo episodes (which it does not), where the season table is transcluded to (as the tables are identical between the two articls), the summaries are not displayed. This change is to declare the singular article where summaries should be displayed, rather than to declare the singular article where the summary should not be displayed (as it stands now). Hope that makes sense. -- Alex^TW 06:25, 30 March 2017 (UTC)

I still don't see why we need to make it so that you have to specify "Foo (season x)", given that we only use the template in the article in which we we want the summaries. I'm sure there must be a way to avoid this. --AussieLegend (✉) 07:23, 30 March 2017 (UTC)

If you know of any other way, I'd definitely be interested in hearing it. I can't say that I've heard of any way to determine whether a template is part of a transclusion or not within the template or module itself. If there is, then I would go a further step and say that {{Episode list/sublist}} would no longer be required at all; we could simply use the regular {{Episode list}} and hide summaries upon any transclusion. Until then, it looks like we need the sublist template and its first parameter. -- Alex^TW 07:27, 30 March 2017 (UTC)

@AussieLegend: Just wanted to make sure that that makes sense? -- Alex^TW 07:57, 31 March 2017 (UTC)

Bot request filed. -- Alex^TW 12:12, 3 April 2017 (UTC)

BRFA filed. -- Alex^TW 17:55, 9 April 2017 (UTC)

Links in Infobox television season

Update Per the discussion at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Television/Archive 24#Links in Infobox television season where a consensus was reached (quick summary: allow redirects to be linked as previous/next seasons, when the redirect is to a specific section). Executed the implementation (diff) and updated the documentation (diff). Cheers. -- Alex^TW 11:57, 3 April 2017 (UTC)

Not a really strong consensus. I opposed at the original discussion and only 2 editors supported at the second. --AussieLegend (✉) 13:51, 3 April 2017 (UTC)

It was up for an entire month, plenty of time for you to have disagreed at the time. I wasn't exactly going to create a third discussion on the same topic for the editor or two who may have missed it. (We've already had that circus with the editor who missed the notifications for the MOS:TV overhaul.) -- Alex^TW 13:57, 3 April 2017 (UTC)

I had already disagreed, so I shouldn't have needed to disagree again. In any case, when you have only a very limited number of editors involved, you can't call consensus, especially when it means changing an infobox used in 4,500 articles. The fact that the results in two discussions differed is more than enough justification for a third discussion. --AussieLegend (✉) 14:09, 3 April 2017 (UTC)

An infobox used in 4,500 articles, an edit affecting maybe 1 or 2% percent of that. There were lesser voices in the first discussion than there were the second, and WP:SILENCE of opposition does create a form of consensus. And the initial discussion was yet another one that you didn't reply to until it was archived, having not addressed the reply to your initial post that detailed the specifics. So, is there a point here? Do you intend to start a discussion on why it should not be implemented, or shall we simply discuss the finer points of discussion threads? -- Alex^TW 14:15, 3 April 2017 (UTC)

There were lesser voices in the first discussion than there were the second - There were two voices in the first discussion but only 3 in the second, and one of those was a participant in the first. He doesn't get two votes. The difference wasn't as great as you are implying.

And the initial discussion was yet another one that you didn't reply to until it was archived, having not addressed the reply to your initial post that detailed the specifics - I replied to the initial discussion only 4 hours after it was opened, well before it was archived, so I don't know what you're talking about.

WP:SILENCE of opposition does create a form of consensus - WP:SILENCE actually says "Consensus can be presumed to exist until voiced disagreement becomes evident". It goes on to say "Silence is the weakest form of consensus"

So, is there a point here? Do you intend to start a discussion on why it should not be implemented, or shall we simply discuss the finer points of discussion threads? - Snide comments are not appreciated and don't help your argument. --AussieLegend (✉) 14:43, 3 April 2017 (UTC)

I replied to the initial discussion only 4 hours after it was opened, well before it was archived, so I don't know what you're talking about. Not what I said. After Adam replied to your disagreeing comment with the specifics of his proposal, you didn't reply to it again for an entire month before it was archived, indicating that you had no further arguments against it. You then posted no further arguments in the second discussion. You only post an argument against it after it's been implemented, which does seem to be a habit of yours.

WP:SILENCE actually says "Consensus can be presumed to exist until voiced disagreement becomes evident". It goes on to say "Silence is the weakest form of consensus" It may be the weakest form, but it's still a form, especially when there was a total of two months between posting and archiving to voice your disagreement. -- Alex^TW 14:52, 3 April 2017 (UTC)

Not what I said. - What you said was vague at best. you didn't reply to until it was archived - Obviously I did reply before it was archived. When did I reply after it was archived?

indicating that you had no further arguments against it - That's not what it indicates at all. It indicates I have a life. Or maybe I just missed it.

It may be the weakest form, but it's still a form - Except that WP:SILENCE says "Consensus can be presumed to exist until voiced disagreement becomes evident" and there is obviously voiced disagreement has become evident. The last discussion finished with no clear consensus and was even archived, but you've implemented a change without any further discussion or explanation. Your "solution" is your solution and has been made with no further input from anyone. --AussieLegend (✉) 02:31, 4 April 2017 (UTC)

Obviously I did reply before it was archived. When did I reply after it was archived? What? See the original discussion at Template talk:Infobox television season/Archive 4#Other season links. Adam posted a proposal. You replied. He replied with specifics. You never replied or opposed the discussion again, resulting in its archiving due to lack of input for an entire month.

The last discussion finished with no clear consensus and was even archived Again: because no-one voiced disagreement with it for an entire month. It's not my fault that you apparently "missed" the discussion. you've implemented a change without any further discussion or explanation You wanted me to create a third discussion on the same topic, simply because you disagreed with it? You're the only one who has so far, and you've given no further explanation as to why, rather that you do. Sorry, but that is not evident disagreement. Three editors agreed on the topic. One disagreed. Two discussion were open for two months, and no-one else commented, when they could have at any time if they felt the need to. That's enough input. -- Alex^TW 02:46, 4 April 2017 (UTC)

Sorry, but that is not evident disagreement. Since you apparently don't get it then, there is disagreement. Therefore consensus doesn't exist. The first discussion was archived. Thirteen months later you resurrect the matter and the discussion was again archived with no clear consensus. Two months after the last comments you take it upon yourself to declare consensus and make changes and only then inform the project. You don't see anything wrong with that? At the very least you should have mentioned that you were planning on making changes before doing so. Your actions are out of process. --AussieLegend (✉) 14:21, 4 April 2017 (UTC)

I'm not sure how much clearer I can put it for you. The discussions were open for a total of two months. The onus was on you to bring forth any disagreements you had to the discussion. Not on me. You made no further comments. (I seem to be repeating myself here.) Consensus on Wikipedia does not mean unanimity. -- Alex^TW 14:34, 4 April 2017 (UTC)

And I don't know how much clearer I can make it for you. Your arbitrary declaration of consensus and modification of the template without first notifying the project was out of process. This isn't the first time you've done this sort of thing and it was very close to an abuse of the TE permission which, if you remember, was initially denied to you because of exactly this sort of thing. --AussieLegend (✉) 01:44, 5 April 2017 (UTC)

And I don't know how much clearer I can make it for you either. Discussion was open for months. No further disagreements were given. There was no point opening a third discussion for exactly the same result. Only one editor disagreed; one who give a single initial compliant, and then never expanded upon it after an explanation was given and a question asked. And still the only disagreeing editor at all. And I recommend that you know what you're talking about before making such claims: I was initially denied the template editor right due to my edit-warring at the time, not my WP:BOLDness. Research: It's fundamental! -- Alex^TW 18:11, 9 April 2017 (UTC)

1. You're now repeating yourself. 2. Your edit-warring and "BOLDness" go hand in hand. You're still being criticised by other editors for the latter. --AussieLegend (✉) 05:10, 10 April 2017 (UTC)

This thread is now simply a list of accusations against me (Criticized? I'd love to see some examples.), and nothing to do with the topic at hand. Nothing else to see here. -- Alex^TW 05:12, 10 April 2017 (UTC)

Upcoming "420 collaboration"

You are invited to participate in the upcoming "420 collaboration", which is being held from Saturday, April 15 to Sunday, April 30, and especially on April 20, 2017! The purpose of the collaboration, which is being organized by WikiProject Cannabis, is to create and improve cannabis-related content at Wikipedia and other Wikimedia projects in a variety of fields, including: culture, health, hemp, history, medicine, politics, and religion. WikiProject Television participants may be particularly interested in the following categories: Category:Television episodes about cannabis and Category:Television series about cannabis. For more information about this campaign, and to learn how you can help improve Wikipedia, please visit the "420 collaboration" page.

---Another Believer _(Talk) 20:49, 10 April 2017 (UTC)

Awake and List of Awake episodes

The article for the TV series Awake was promoted to WP:GA status in 2012. List of Awake episodes is a WP:FL (also promoted in 2012). There's just one problem with this – Awake was only a single-season TV series (just 13 episodes), and single-season TV series are not supposed to have "standalone" episodes list articles under our very own WP:TV guidelines (e.g. WP:TVOVERVIEW, etc.). Any ideas what should be done here? Leave it alone? Or insist upon merging the episodes list back to the main Awake article (which is what I feel should actually be done)?... TIA. --IJBall (contribs • talk) 21:49, 13 April 2017 (UTC)

Episode list should definitely be merged back to the main article, and remove much of the series overview section as that is just citing the episodes anyways (that can probably be reduced to a logline-type premise). The last two sections should also be merged and/or subsectioned together in a way, and moved up earlier in the article too. - Favre1fan93 (talk) 00:49, 14 April 2017 (UTC)

Sounds like a lot of work!! ... OK, I may look at this one when I have more time (which will be in approx. a month), unless someone else wants to tackle it before then. I haven't tackled a WP:GA before, so perhaps this can be done as part of a "reappraisal" of the GA status. --IJBall (contribs • talk) 01:23, 14 April 2017 (UTC)

And the award for most similar article goes to...

TVyNovelas for Best Co-star Actress and TVyNovelas Award for Best Co-star Actress appear to be essentially the same list, but with differences that I can't resolve from the references given. Would a subject expert be willing to consolidate them into one consistent page? Thanks, Certes (talk) 19:45, 17 April 2017 (UTC)

See also TVyNovelas for Best Telenovela of the Year and TVyNovelas Award for Best Telenovela of the Year. The titles of the combined lists should probably contain "Award" for consistency with several similar articles (except TVyNovelas for Best Co-star Actor). Certes (talk) 19:49, 17 April 2017 (UTC)

RfC on the WP:ANDOR guideline

Hi, all. Opinions are needed on the following: Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style#RfC: Should the WP:ANDOR guideline be softened to begin with "Avoid unless" wording or similar?. A WP:Permalink for it is here. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 22:37, 17 April 2017 (UTC)

Are reviews sufficient for articles for episodes of television? Straw poll.

Please be advised that I've created a straw poll to get a feel from editors as to whether reviews are, in and of themselves, sufficient grounds for creating articles for individual episodes of tv shows. While editors have agreed that reviews are sufficient to meet WP:GNG, there is some debate as to whether, for instance, all episodes of The Simpsons merit their own article simply because it's possible to find reviews of every episode. The straw poll can be found here. Your input is greatly appreciated! DonIago (talk) 14:24, 18 April 2017 (UTC)

Discussion at Talk:List of Doctor Who serials#New Tweaks

You are invited to join the discussion at Talk:List of Doctor Who serials#New Tweaks. This is in regards to the guideline of WP:TVOVERVIEW, and manually calculating viewer averages for each season. -- Alex^TW 09:22, 21 April 2017 (UTC)

Just to summarize: 1) WP:TVOVERVIEW states If average viewership numbers are included, they should be adequately sourced, and not the result of your own calculations. Sourcing is crucial for accuracy, and to help other editors quickly respond to numerical vandalism. 2) Conflicting WP:CALC states Routine calculations do not count as original research, provided there is consensus among editors that the result of the calculation is obvious, correct, and a meaningful reflection of the sources. Basic arithmetic, such as adding numbers, converting units, or calculating a person's age are some examples of routine calculations. -- Alex^TW 10:29, 22 April 2017 (UTC)

Full season online release alongside traditional week-by-week episode broadcast

I see there's been some talk about this type of situation in the archives but didn't get a sense there was a consensus... in the case of both Beyond (2017 TV series) and the just-released Famous in Love, Freeform made the entire first season of each show available online (through a variety of channels) the same day the pilots aired but, on the channel, the release schedule is one episode a week (i.e. traditional broadcast TV approach). To me, this means they should be treated like Netflix, Hulu, or Amazon Prime releases (e.g. Jessica Jones (TV series)) and considered all "released" on the day they were made available online, with their OriginalAirDate parameters set to the one original date when this happened, because my understanding there is that parameter is for date of first public availability, no matter what form that availability comes in, and that the episodes' subsequent broadcast on traditional TV is really pretty much a repeat or essentially like a later release in a different country. Listing future dates for episodes that are already actually available could lead to confusion... like if people start writing summaries for an episode now when its air date is listed as happening the following month, or if people want to remove sources from episode titles and/or writers and/or directors (because the episodes themselves can serve as primary sources for that info) for episodes that are listed as not having been "aired" yet.

Are there guidelines for this already? If yes, can someone point me in that direction? If not, thoughts/opinions? —Joeyconnick (talk) 18:34, 20 April 2017 (UTC)

I haven't come across this before, but if the original release is in the Netflix way then that is what you should use for episode tables. Mention could then be made in prose that the episodes were subsequently broadcast weekly. - adamstom97 (talk) 21:40, 20 April 2017 (UTC)

Something was discussed and done for The Shannara Chronicles, which had a similar situation. Maybe it is beneficial to use two columns, one for the online release, and one for the broadcast? Because I don't necessarily believe the broadcast airing after the online release should be considered a "repeat". - Favre1fan93 (talk) 01:12, 21 April 2017 (UTC)

It depends on whether the series is meant to be traditionally released or batch released on demand. I would ignore within the week cases or weird time zone differences like if they always broadcast on, say, April 21, but released some episodes early on the web on April 20. It's also okay to list multiple airdates for different primary country of origin versions as seen with List of Miraculous Ladybug episodes. AngusWOOF (bark • sniff) 03:17, 23 April 2017 (UTC)

@Adamstom.97: Famous in Love has currently been switched to the other way (weekly dates with a mention of the online mass release) by Amaury who thinks this has been decided, apparently.

@Favre1fan93: The Shannara case isn't exactly the same as Beyond or Famous in Love given the entire series wasn't released all at once the same day as the pilot aired. I would still favour listing the online release dates in the Shannara case for eps 2 and 3 with a note giving the broadcast release dates but at least in that case people could argue that eps 2 and 3 are exceptions since the rest of the series was released on a traditional weekly schedule. As for it being a repeat... maybe "repeat" isn't the best word but it is old news, the same way reading about a news item in a printed newspaper is old news if you've already read that story online the night before. By the time you read it (or watch it) in a more traditional format, someone has already known its details for a while. In the case of Famous, the entertainment press are already talking about an end-of-season twist for a show that, if we go by the current Wikipedia info, won't air that episode for two more months. I would say that makes sticking to the weekly airing schedule inaccurate.

@AngusWOOF: Looking over Miraculous Ladybug, I would say it's not done properly. I can see a case being made for listing two sets of dates (maybe) if the country of origin air dates differ (i.e. are later) than the initial air dates (looks like it was released in South Korea before its native France) but I don't see why the US release dates are there being given equal prominence... that seems pretty ethnocentric given the US doesn't seem to have anything to do with the production of the show.

It's given equal prominence because its English dub was a prominent release within season and it's English Wikipedia. Voice actors from the English version are featured in the press releases and reviews. This happens a lot for anime shows where there's a prominent Japanese version and subsequent English TV broadcast, but yes, country of origin is noted in the column. The next season will be released on Netflix so those dates will be listed. The South Korea dates are listed as a footnote as this isn't Korean Wikipedia, even though that's technically the first release of the episode in any language. AngusWOOF (bark • sniff) 15:39, 23 April 2017 (UTC)

Ah okay, I see now how the US info is relevant. Sorry, didn't realize the context. —Joeyconnick (talk) 19:42, 23 April 2017 (UTC)

Obviously how something is listed in an ambiguous case depends on whether you are putting the emphasis on "original" and whether you think "air" just means "traditional TV broadcast" or "made available for public consumption". Given for films the release date is supposed to be the first public release, even if that's "just" at a festival like TIFF or Sundance, I would think we'd follow something similar here, especially given how whether a series was intended for traditional broadcast or not is going to become more and more murky as time goes by. Easier to skip trying to OR an answer for that by just using first release, no matter what medium. —Joeyconnick (talk) 04:38, 23 April 2017 (UTC)

If these were strictly online series, that would be one thing, such as was the case with The Legend of Korra's last few book three episodes and entire book four episodes, but that is not the case here. These are television series where their network has made their episodes available online, and we don't even know if this is something they're going to do with further seasons, Beyond of which already has an upcoming second season. We also don't know that, if they do end up doing that with further seasons, they will do it all at once or only once an episode has aired on television. Original air date refers strictly to television series airings on cable and satellite because nothing can air on the Internet. Anything made available on the Internet is called a release. Disney Channel made Andi Mack's first two episodes available online on March 10 ahead of its premiere on April 7, but in the episode table we list April 7 because that's what we're documenting—the original television air date. We can mention the online release dates in the Production section in the same manner that we mention when a series or season premieres in a country outside the country of origin in the Broadcast section. We don't list the original air date for every single country outside the country of origin in the episode table. In addition, because of the release of cable and satellite ratings being for, well, cable and satellite, it would not make sense to have an air date of April 18 for episode two, but then have April 25 ratings for episode two. Air date and ratings should match. Amaury (talk | contribs) 05:11, 23 April 2017 (UTC)

I'm inclined to agree with Amaury on this – if the 'Ratings' column is to be used, than the TV airdate is the one that needs to be listed in the episodes table for consistency's sake. And, let's face it – they still really don't have a good way to track online ratings (or, at least, never seem to publicly release them), so it's likely that ratings will be tied to TV and TV airings for the foreseeable future. Also, this would especially be true for something like Famous in Love which is explictly branded as a "Freeform TV series", and not something like a "Netflix series" or whatever. Now, if the ratings aren't going to be listed, then I'm not sure what to do. Also, I don't have an opinion on whether it would be appropriate to list the TV airing date and the online "premiere" dates (in separate columns)... --IJBall (contribs • talk) 05:34, 23 April 2017 (UTC)

So, two points in rebuttal:

1. Consistency with the ratings info is a red herring because that is easily dealt with by removing the ratings info from the episode table and leaving it in the, or creating a, ratings table that would include the traditional TV air dates.
2. "original air date" referring strictly to traditional TV broadcast is also misleading because that column transforms into "Original release date" with the addition of the "released=y" parameter, which in at least some earlier versions where the original online release date was used for all episodes was the case. So saying we can't use the original online release date because of some narrow definition of "original air date" is not legit... we can simply rename the column to better reflect when and how the episodes were made available.

As for whether or not these series will continue to be released in one batch in subsequent seasons, that's also irrelevant because WP:CRYSTAL. If they move to a traditional initial release schedule in subsequent seasons, future episode tables can reflect that because consistency solely for consistency's sake is rarely a good approach. What we do know is that the initial seasons' batch of episodes for both these series were released en masse on a single date and are (something I've yet to see anybody here address) being treated by reliable sources as having already been consumed by the public well before they are traditionally "aired" on broadcast TV. —Joeyconnick (talk) 06:51, 23 April 2017 (UTC)

There is absolutely no reason to remove the ratings column. The only reason to remove the ratings column would be if all or just about all of the episodes had no viewership data available, which isn't the case here. Adding another section and table just to show each individual episode's television ratings when they can easily just be shown in the episode table itself would just add unnecessary clutter. Original air date does strictly relate to television airings. If you change it to original release date, the entire context and meaning is changed. Also, as IJBall mentioned, these series are labeled as "Freefrom TV series", a clear indication that they're, well, TV series. It doesn't matter that some or all episodes were released online before they aired on television. Again, if these were only online, that would be one thing, but they're not. There's a reason the parameters are called first and last aired, which, again, specifically refer to television airings. Additionally, the episodes airing on TV are indeed new; otherwise, ratings wouldn't be posted as rerun ratings are not posted on Showbuzz Daily unless it's one of the broadcast channels. As such, trying to label upcoming episodes as "old" or "repeats" is quite incorrect. Amaury (talk | contribs) 07:31, 23 April 2017 (UTC)

Again, because Famous in Love (and Beyond) are primarily "television series" (that are produced for Freeform – i.e. TV is their primary means of distribution), and not "internet streaming series", I am inclined to think that the TV airdates should be used as the "primary" airdates in the episodes table. Now, I do think the fact that the season was released all at once on "X" date [wherever] does need to be noted – and I think it actually should be noted, in prose form, above the season's episode table (as well as possibly again in the 'Production' section). But in the cases of series like these, I think the TV airdates should be regarded as the "primary" ones, and thus the ones used in the episodes table (with the TV ratings included in the episodes table). Note that this kind of thing is probably something that will have to be looked at on a case-by-case basis – I'm not sure we can easily come up with a guideline to cover all of the eventualities on this... --IJBall (contribs • talk) 15:22, 23 April 2017 (UTC)

Maybe two columns could be used with a note at the "Viewers" column header that it refers to television ratings (as online ratings are not available anyway), but when the entire season was released on one day, that seems pretty redundant. I would list the TV air date and note the online release above the episode table. nyuszika7h (talk) 15:29, 23 April 2017 (UTC)

I'll add that the column headers are customizable, so if you can specify "Original release date (Netflix)", "Original release date (YouTube)", "Original release date (online) / Original air date (TV)", or "Viewers (TV, millions)" and put in whatever footnotes would help the reader like "Episodes 3 and 4 were first released to YouTube on April 20" AngusWOOF (bark • sniff) 15:46, 23 April 2017 (UTC)

In that case, the best choices would be "Original airdate (Freeform)" or "Original airdate (TV)", IMO. --IJBall (contribs • talk) 15:49, 23 April 2017 (UTC)

I personally think notes above the episode table and in the Production section are sufficient, but I guess I'd be fine with having one column for the television original air date and one column for the online release date, just like how List of Degrassi: Next Class episodes does it. I mean, it's no different than having columns for a Canadian air date and US air date of a series, such as at Backstage and another article I watch. Obviously, we can't have columns for everything, but having columns for the two major ones doesn't hurt. Amaury (talk | contribs) 16:31, 23 April 2017 (UTC)

On my end, I don't think two columns is probably necessary in the case of Famous in Love and Beyond as the "OnDemand/streaming release" date was the same for all episodes, and one sentence of prose above the top of the episode table is sufficient to handle this. --IJBall (contribs • talk) 16:39, 23 April 2017 (UTC)

Neither do I, really, just put it out there. I feel the same way. Amaury (talk | contribs) 16:45, 23 April 2017 (UTC)

Been semi-following this, but it's TL;DR, so haven't contributed. But concerning the quote Also, as IJBall mentioned, these series are labeled as "Freefrom TV series", a clear indication that they're, well, TV series, that really doesn't apply at all - see the articles for any Netflix series that has "(TV series)" as its disambiguator in its title. Just my one cent. -- Alex^TW 17:01, 23 April 2017 (UTC)

On the subject of two original airdate columns in a single table, I think we should be aware of what the term "original" means, i.e. there logically should not be a second original airdate. - adamstom97 (talk) 20:02, 23 April 2017 (UTC)

Well... It depends how you want to "parse" this – if you view television and online streaming as different "media" (as I do), then it's possible to have an "original TV airdate" and then a separate internet-streaming "release date" – that's sort of what is happening with Famous in Love and what already happened with Beyond. Unfortunately, these kinds of issues are going to come up more and more now, until TV is finally basically "replaced" by internet streaming, but we're probably at least a decade away from that actually happening... --IJBall (contribs • talk) 20:48, 23 April 2017 (UTC)

Episode list transcluding?

Can someone look at the way List of The Virginian (TV series) episodes has been designed to transclude content from The Virginian (season 1) and The Virginian (season 2) and tell me if this is an unorthodox way of doing things. I feel the tables should be in the main List of episodes article and not duplicated from separate season articles, it seems extraneous to me, like sub-paging, since we now have the main article on The Virginian, a List of episodes article and a third-level with an article for each season. I would welcome a second opinion, before I commit to moving the tables onto one page and AFD'ing the surplus. Thanks. — Marcus^(talk) 09:28, 24 April 2017 (UTC)

This is the standard manner on how to transclude a season table to the episodes article. However, the seasons articles have nowhere near enough content to warrant separate articles for each seasons; per the typical procedure here, I recommend being WP:BOLD, moving the tables back to the episode-list article, and redirecting the season articles to the respective section. -- Alex^TW 09:34, 24 April 2017 (UTC)

Done with some minor clean-up around the edges. Thanks. — Marcus^(talk) 11:12, 24 April 2017 (UTC)

how best to deal with an editor who keeps adding copyvio plot summaries

An editor and I have been having a back-and-forth regarding the addition of non-free use plot summaries for Shades of Blue (TV series) and I can't seem to make any headway and don't want to keep edit-warring with them. Here's an example of recent "changes" to the copyrighted materials that I think they think fixes the problem... and totally doesn't. I've never really faced this situation and I think the editor is well-meaning... any suggestions on how to proceed? —Joeyconnick (talk) 22:10, 26 April 2017 (UTC)

If a new or anonymous editor is adding copyvios, try leaving a note on their talk page using {{uw-copyright-new}}. If that doesn't work, try explaining it to them on their talk page. If that doesn't work after warnings (more than one is needed), report them to WP:AIV. --AussieLegend (✉) 22:27, 26 April 2017 (UTC)

"Recurring" vs. "Special guest" billing/status

An IP editor posted a fairly long entry on my talk page regarding this edit I made to List of The Originals characters. My interpretation (and what I've most often seen in the TV articles I've edited) is that because MOS:TVCAST is all about how people are credited (i.e. that's where we get the order of people on these lists) and since, as has been discussed before, "Recurring" is not something we can always reliably source (i.e. it's not a particular kind of credit and there's not necessarily reliable sources that consistently confirm someone's recurring status) is that if someone is actually billed as a special guest, that should take precedence over us listing them as recurring, even if they appear in multiple episodes and it's clear their role does recur.

Has this been hashed out already? If so, can you point me to the relevant place? If not, thoughts/comments/opinions? —Joeyconnick (talk) 19:06, 29 April 2017 (UTC)

I'd also like to find out about previous discussions, but I feel the opposite that you do: crediting like "special guest star" is arbitrary and honorific, and from a real-world perspective is just a negotiated item in a contract and not a different kind of role that would need its own section. You basically have main/contract roles, guest roles (1 episode) and recurring roles (more than one but not contract principals). This is not necessarily terminology that needs to be sourced, but real-world, common sense classification. Our sticking to credited order is a means to prevent chaos LOL. Drmargi provides a good explanation for this way of thinking in this comment at Talk:Feud (TV series).— TAnthony^Talk 20:15, 29 April 2017 (UTC)

This is generally a case-by-case basis type thing, but I agree with TAnthony that "special guest" generally doesn't mean a whole lot, except for maybe an indication to us as editors as to what the producers consider to be notable guest stars. For instance, I wouldn't put more emphasis on someone who has appeared a couple times as a special guest than on someone we know is just a guest star but has been reappearing throughout the show. - adamstom97 (talk) 22:39, 29 April 2017 (UTC)

There's a fundamental difference: main v. recurring cast is about the role; billing is about the actor. Recurring describes the length of a character's run. We can agree on criteria for that (multiple appearances in an arc, minimum of three episodes, whatever; we've long needed to address this).

"Also starring" and "special guest star" are just billing. There are three kinds of billing of guest stars: guest star (where the vast majority of actors are billed), co-star (usually minor players billed in the end credits), and special guest star. SGS is an honorific used with a guest star the show wants to recognize in some way, most commonly when a high-status actor makes an appearance on a show, or an when an older character returns. (Sometimes, it's just pandering to an actor's ego.) On the other hand, also starring is used for main cast not in the opening credits; Brian Dietzen was billed as "also starring" when we was first added to the NCIS main cast because they didn't immediately re-do the opening credit sequence. They should be handled as main cast. This will always be a problem because it's learn-by-doing industry knowledge, but not documented much of anywhere. --Drmargi (talk) 23:44, 29 April 2017 (UTC)

I agree mainly with what TAnthony, Adam and Drmargi said. I also think it wouldn't hurt for us to "codify" pretty much exactly what Drmargi wrote in their third paragraph somewhere so we can point users to it. Maybe this would be appropriate to define at WP:TVFAQ? - Favre1fan93 (talk) 02:26, 30 April 2017 (UTC)

You're welcome to use it as is, or I can tweak as needed. It's long overdue, as is a discussion of what constitutes a recurring role. --Drmargi (talk) 17:41, 30 April 2017 (UTC)

After-cancellation petitions

Has there ever been any discussion of practices regarding discussion/mention of after-cancellation petition drives to save cancelled shows? They seems to be common as dirt these days, and constantly crop up in articles, generally to be removed in fairly short order. I just removed one from The Doctor Blake Mysteries which was even in the lede. To my mind, they're about fans, not the show, and as such are fancruft. Any views on this? --Drmargi (talk) 17:45, 30 April 2017 (UTC)

They are only cruft if they cannot be sourced to a reliable, secondary source. --Izno (talk) 19:48, 30 April 2017 (UTC)

Agree. They're cruft and should be removed. EvergreenFir (talk) 19:53, 30 April 2017 (UTC)

@Izno: Cruft is defined by importance, not reliability of sources. This is a classic example of cruft: aside from a few dedicated fans, who cares if there is a petition drive? The producers certainly don't, and again, these petitions are about the fans, not the show. --Drmargi (talk) 20:01, 30 April 2017 (UTC)

I'd argue petitions are notable if they result in something (ie. a particular petition is the direct result of a show being cancelled, renewed, etc) but otherwise to my mind its no different to including "X number of fans tweet about the show each episode" or other trivial information about the average hardcore fan. -- Whats new?^(talk) 23:57, 30 April 2017 (UTC)

Unless the petition has some sort of effect on the show, even if it doesn't save the show but is addressed by those who make it in some notable way, then I wouldn't include it. - adamstom97 (talk) 06:09, 1 May 2017 (UTC)

@Drmargi: WP:WEIGHT is established by an topic's presence in WP:RS, which is what defines a topic's importance. So, yes, the reliability of sources is certainly important. --Izno (talk) 11:56, 1 May 2017 (UTC)

Updates to WP:TVPRODUCTION

Posting a final call for any comments to updated wording for WP:TVPRODUCTION. The proposed updates are Proposal 2 in the discussion found here. - Favre1fan93 (talk) 15:36, 2 May 2017 (UTC)

Moving a Featured List article.

If you look at this Category:Lists of American Western television series episodes you'll see there are 20 Western TV series listed. All of them are named following the format "List of <series name> episodes" -- all except Gunsmoke which has been called "List of Gunsmoke television episodes". Since there is only one series called Gunsmoke with episodes to list I don't think we need it to be called this and propose to move it to "List of Gunsmoke episodes" to fall-in with the other 19 titles in the category; the superfluous "television" seems to be an unnecessary disambiguation. Does anyone have any concerns over my wanting to do this? Were is not a FL I'd probably have gone ahead, but since it has such a high standard I don't want to straight away incase I've missed thinking of something that would make it a bad move. — Marcus^(talk) 16:52, 30 April 2017 (UTC)

The reason this list has "television" in its title is to differentiate it from List of Gunsmoke radio episodes. Gunsmoke had such such a long run in both mediums of entertainment that I thought it best to give the two lists separate entries, much like some some recording artists with long careers have both singles and album discographies. Jimknut (talk) 15:16, 2 May 2017 (UTC)

@Jimknut: I was not aware that there is also a radio episodes article, until just now. I guess that means we do need some form of diambiguation between the two. I think "List of Gunsmoke television episodes" looks better than "List of Gunsmoke episodes (television)" would. So, might as well just leave things as they are. Thanks for your feedback, much appreciated. — Marcus^(talk) 16:33, 2 May 2017 (UTC)

You're welcome. Jimknut (talk) 18:26, 2 May 2017 (UTC)

Recent mass changes to categories

So, my watchlist has become flooded with the edits by Carnelian10, a relatively new editor who has decided to modify the categories used by television series, merging and removing them, who now has almost 1,800 such edits. Many of the changes have modified the genres listed in the categories, which we know is a big no in the WP:TV, or removed valid categories, which multiple editors have had to revert or re-add. I attempt to post on their talk page, but received no reply. Was there any discussion or consensus to do so? Should it have had such a discussion? -- Alex^TW 01:19, 22 April 2017 (UTC)

Have just noticed this also. The editor has seemed to create a number of sub-categories, which from the ones I've seen have largely involved separating categories by country of origin (eg. "Lists of drama television series episodes" to "Lists of Australian drama..."), with the latter category created by the editor just days ago. Quite widespread changes for a newbie editor -- Whats new?^(talk) 01:29, 22 April 2017 (UTC)

Have noticed this as well but since I don't usually play with categories, I wasn't sure if it was ok or not. But it's been widespread enough that I noticed it at all (I have way more films and books on my watchlist than TV articles) which is saying something. Millahnna (talk) 02:21, 22 April 2017 (UTC)

I noticed that the "Lists of American television series episodes" required diffusion, and also concluded that "television series episodes" (for any country) is too broad a category and should be a placeholder for sub-categories. It is recommended that editors be bold. Also, once you have, for example, "British sitcom television series episodes", there is no requirement for an episode list to continue to be featured in both "Lists of British television series episodes" and "Lists of sitcom television series episodes" as they are redundant. It was a good faith exercise in cleaning up the rather bloated category pages. Thank you. Carnelian10 (talk)

One of the main issues with what you have been doing, say with this edit, was you better categorized the crime cat, but completely removed the drama one as well, which should not have been done. You should have done both. I don't think there is a problem with adding articles to more specific cats if we can, but the process by which Carnelian is going about it is like a half attempt. As I pointed out, they are either completely removing cats or adjusting others to new or different genres that may need discussion. - Favre1fan93 (talk) 03:01, 23 April 2017 (UTC)

Hello Favre1fan93 - I feel that "drama" is a very bloated, generic category, and "crime drama" is effectively redundant since many shows are listed under "Crime". Ditto, drama series could be moved to something more specific (legal, medical etc.) - Carnelian10 (talk) 07:26, 26 April 2017 (UTC)

@Carnelian10: That one isn't really something you can mass determine without some discussion. Further clarifying by the county I can understand, but you need to have a discussion regarding full out removal of a genre such as drama. I would highly suggest you return to all the articles you edited and readd this back, and then come back here and start a new discussion regarding your concern of it being "very bloated" so other editors can discuss with you the best course of action. - Favre1fan93 (talk) 15:27, 26 April 2017 (UTC)

The editor at hand

The previously-discussed editor is now involved with myself in a discussion about adding guest and absent cast to the plot summaries of episodes in the Wentworth season articles, a topic that has previously been discussed here, and episode counts, a concept that has very clearly been deprecated. Respective members of the WikiProject Television are invited to partake in the discussion at User talk:Carnelian10 § Wentworth. Cheers. -- Alex^TW 08:30, 28 April 2017 (UTC)

A small request that other WikiProject Television members contribute to the discussion, because if I remove the episode counts and guest lists in the episode summaries, the editor will surely revert me once more, preferring to edit-war than discuss civilly. They need to see that consensus stands through the discussions that have been held here. Cheers. -- Alex^TW 23:42, 2 May 2017 (UTC)

I have removed the episode counts per WP:TVCAST. @Carnelian10: Please read that and understand that is established consensus, and very recent too. - Favre1fan93 (talk) 04:39, 3 May 2017 (UTC)

Character articles for The Flash (2014 TV series) and Supergirl (TV series)

I've been meaning to ask: How should I title character articles concerning The Flash and Supergirl shows? Flash (Barry Allen) exists and so does Supergirl (Kara Zor-El), but there's enough content out there to give these two characters their own articles with regard to the television shows. I want to create one for Barry Allen, Iris West Allen, Supergirl and Lena Luthor. I plan to start with Supergirl.

For a point of reference, see the Smallville character articles, like Clark Kent (Smallville) or Lana Lang (Smallville). Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 05:07, 3 May 2017 (UTC)

I would think "Supergirl (Supergirl)" and "Flash (The Flash)" if available, but I also understand if you might want to try avoid double-ups like that. Another option would be "Flash (Arrowverse)" if you discuss his appearances on the other shows, but that one won't really apply to Kara. - adamstom97 (talk) 05:26, 3 May 2017 (UTC)

Yeah, "Supergirl (Supergirl)" and similar sounds odd. I'd prefer to add "Arrowverse" instead. I plan to try the exact setup as the Smallville articles, if possible. I might have to improvise if there is not enough material. Generally, I gather many reliable sources, then I read the sources to see what they focus on so that I have an idea of what the significant aspects concerning the character are, and then I work on the article in my notepad before posting the content. In this case, I might use a sandbox for input from editors...in case they think I am over-detailing something or missing something. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 05:36, 3 May 2017 (UTC)

In other words, I really want to do these articles justice, especially seeing how the show articles are written well and are kept so neat. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 05:40, 3 May 2017 (UTC)

Sandboxes are always good if you have an idea for an article but want to get it right first. I do think the "Arrowverse" disambig will be good if appropriate—I did something similar with Claire Temple (Marvel Cinematic Universe), which I haven't got critical response stuff for yet, but I made due to all the creation/development info I found. - adamstom97 (talk) 05:51, 3 May 2017 (UTC)

Can't this type of content be incorporated into List of The Flash characters and List of Supergirl characters? I don't see what value having individual articles on those characters adds to Wikipedia or how it isn't redundant/duplicate content.

Barring reason, wouldn't (again following the examples above) Barry Allen (The Flash) and Kara Zor-El (Supergirl) work? I mean, it kinda makes my skin crawl but it would be consistent. Plus also, the extant Oliver Queen (Arrow). (please excuse me while I now go mutter to myself "wikipedia is not wikia, wikipedia is not wikia") —Joeyconnick (talk) 05:55, 3 May 2017 (UTC)

See for Claire Temple, I'd go with Claire Temple (Daredevil) even though the character has appeared on subsequent Marvel Netflix shows. Also, Marvel Cinematic Universe isn't really the right fit to me... "cinematic" means film. But yeah, I know that's what the franchise is called and that for some reason the Netflix shows are lumped into it, as I guess the Freeform ones will be too. *sigh* The capital U in Universe also makes my skin crawl. LOL —Joeyconnick (talk) 06:00, 3 May 2017 (UTC)

Joeyconnick, I find this similar to what you, Jclemens and others are currently arguing at Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Television about standalone episode articles. I understand where you are coming from, but I wouldn't be suggesting the creation of these articles if I didn't think they could be validly sustained. Sure, there will be some redundancy, but that doesn't mean that the articles shouldn't be created. Look at the Smallville character articles. There is portrayal, creator and reception commentary concerning these characters (Flash and Supergirl) that currently is not covered on Wikipedia. I don't think all the characters from the shows should have their own articles, but some should. As for your suggestion to use "Barry Allen (The Flash)" and "Kara Zor-El (Supergirl)", the issue is that we already have articles titled that. The italics are not actually in the titles; the italics are added by Template:DISPLAYTITLE. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 06:39, 3 May 2017 (UTC)

I struck that last bit; I see that your suggestions are different. Yeah, those would work. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 06:44, 3 May 2017 (UTC)

Adamstom.97, the Claire Temple (Marvel Cinematic Universe) article looks great. Thanks for linking to it. I'll use that as an example as well. I might need to use a similar setup for one or more of the characters. There might not be enough on Lena Luthor, but I'll try with Barry, Kara and Iris. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 06:48, 3 May 2017 (UTC)

As I said on my talk page, I would go with Barry Allen (The Flash), Iris West (The Flash), and actually Kara Danvers (Supergirl), as she is primarily known and credited as "Danvers" and not "Zor-El" in that show.  BIGNOLE  (Contact me) 11:56, 3 May 2017 (UTC)

Thanks for the advice, guys. I'm going to use "Barry Allen (The Flash)", "Iris West (The Flash)," and "Kara Danvers (Supergirl)." I might start with Barry first, but I'm not sure. Whichever I create first, I do know that I will post the material to a sandbox and ask for opinions on it here before having it go live. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 23:26, 3 May 2017 (UTC)

On his talk page, Bignole pointed to Oliver Queen (Arrow), which is another example to look at. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 23:30, 3 May 2017 (UTC)

At lease within this universe, there is also Sara Lance. - Favre1fan93 (talk) 23:44, 3 May 2017 (UTC)

Another good example. Okay, I have enough to look to in order to do these articles justice. But I will still be doing that sandbox thing for peer review. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 00:49, 4 May 2017 (UTC)

Talk:List of Drake & Josh episodes#Link episodes

Assistance and thoughts are welcome here. For context, see this. Thanks. SkyWarrior 03:03, 4 May 2017 (UTC)

Oh, Lord – someone is going to have to go through and WP:PROD most of these. Drake & Josh episodes are not going to be independently notable pretty much no matter how you slice it... --IJBall (contribs • talk) 05:49, 4 May 2017 (UTC)

interpretation of MOS:TVCAST order

Hi,

Can someone let me know if I am misinterpreting MOS:TVCAST in this edit as per Amaury's reversion here? My understanding (and the way the section is written) is that original cast credited order is not about changes per season, but any change to the main cast list, even if the those changes occur from pilot to episode 2 (hence Kelly Hu still being listed at The 100 (TV series)#Cast and characters. —Joeyconnick (talk) 05:36, 4 May 2017 (UTC)

This was discussed before here. Amaury (talk | contribs) 05:41, 4 May 2017 (UTC)

I don't watch Beyond – can you two spell out what the exact issue is here?... --IJBall (contribs • talk) 05:44, 4 May 2017 (UTC)

@IJBall: The billing status of one of the actors was different in the pilot compared to the rest of the episodes, similar to Henry Danger and Stuck in the Middle, the latter of which was the credit order being different from the pilot from episode two and onward. Amaury (talk | contribs) 05:47, 4 May 2017 (UTC)

So, is this like The 100 and Kelly Hu, where an actor was only credited for the pilot?! Or is this like Stuck in the Middle, where the cast order changed between episode #1 and episode #2?... If it's the latter, that's a tougher case to deal with. --IJBall (contribs • talk) 05:51, 4 May 2017 (UTC)

@IJBall: It's like The 100 (also like Henry Danger), yeah. Amaury (talk | contribs) 05:58, 4 May 2017 (UTC)

So... we agree it's the same situation as The 100? In that case, I believe the way I edited the article follows that convention (i.e. the person is include, with a note to indicate their billing as main was limited in a certain way). —Joeyconnick (talk) 06:03, 4 May 2017 (UTC)

Not necessarily. As mentioned, pilots are, well, pilots. They differ from the rest of the series because they're basically prototypes, a test to see if the series is going to be well-received among other things. Many series will produce their pilots, but never air them and go straight to the next episode. That's why when pilots do air, we'll go by the second episode if the second episode onward is entirely different with regard to credit order, billing status, etc. Sometimes when pilots are skipped, they'll be made available as a bonus in the form of a lost episode or the like, whether it be on a DVD, online, or what have you. If we use that logic, should that mean that when that happens, we should change the credit ordering or billing if there are any differences? No. Amaury (talk | contribs) 06:10, 4 May 2017 (UTC)

The guideline says "original broadcast" so the situation you describe is a red herring. If the pilot isn't released, it wasn't part of the original broadcast. If it's later released however, that's a special feature, not an actual part of the series broadcast. So no, I'm not arguing we should have to go and retroactively edit the order if an unbroadcast pilot is later released. I am arguing that if the pilot is broadcast as the first episode, it's broadcast as the first episode and we follow the guideline as written. If the pilot was "good enough" to broadcast, it's good enough to use for the initial cast order. —Joeyconnick (talk) 06:31, 4 May 2017 (UTC)

I do think that this version deals with these issues satisfactorily – but I may be biased: I liked the use of "informational notes" like this... --IJBall (contribs • talk) 06:15, 4 May 2017 (UTC)

Constantine is another example of a show where someone starring in the pilot was not starring in any subsequent episodes (in this case she was written out), and after discussions there it was decided that in the scope of the whole series, she should not be listed as a starring cast member. - adamstom97 (talk) 06:18, 4 May 2017 (UTC)

The other version also has informational notes, so I'm not sure if that's a good deciding factor. —Joeyconnick (talk) 06:33, 4 May 2017 (UTC)

(edit conflict) But, yeah – this is one of those cases where following the "letter" of TVCAST, in regards to a TV pilot, may not be the best idea. It's clear that the casting changed significantly between the pilot and the rest of the series, which makes the pilot sort of the "odd man out", and it's probably not the best idea to base the cast listing off the pilot in this case... So I think the use of the current 'notes' does the trick. (Note: Again, I have not watch this series, so I'm going just off what's at the article, and what you two are saying.) --IJBall (contribs • talk) 06:19, 4 May 2017 (UTC)

The point of WP:TVCAST is to provide a consistent and neutral way to list cast. In the past we had people listing cast according to the number of episodes in which they aired, but that causes issues. We also had people listing the cast differently in the infobox and the article body, which also adds confusion and inconsistency. If we start making exceptions we may as well just delete the MOS completely. For most TV programs, there is not a lot of difference between the pilot and subsequent episodes. If there is, a note in the prose is the best way to handle it, as is done at The 100 article. --AussieLegend (✉) 06:23, 4 May 2017 (UTC)

(edit conflict) @IJBall: I can indeed confirm this from finishing the first season the other night. c: And small spoiler here if it's of any "help," Kevin, who Jordan Callaway portrays, is murdered a few episodes in, possibly why his role was changed. Amaury (talk | contribs) 06:25, 4 May 2017 (UTC)

And, again, we talked about this very issue during the MOS:TV discussions on TVCAST. Because pilots are often substantially different than TV series, to the point where some pilots are virtually different TV series, you can't always base TV cast listings off the pilots – you have to go by episode #2 and all subsequent episodes in a few rare cases. I am not saying this happens often – but Constantine and Beyond look to be two good examples where this is the case. Guidelines are guidelines: following them will make the most sense 98%, 99% of the time, but not 100% of the time. These two series are examples of this. Again, as long as all is explained in the kind of notes use at Beyond, or the kind of text (and references) used at Constantine, I'm not seeing a problem. --IJBall (contribs • talk) 06:28, 4 May 2017 (UTC)

By that logic, these are really minor differences between pilot and episode 2... we're talking 2 cast members, one of whom by the pilot billing is included in "Main" and one whose order in "Main" changes. That's not what I would call "substantial". It's not like they broadcast an initial pilot and then completely retooled the series—my understanding is that generally when there's a major retooling, they reshoot the pilot and the original is never aired as part of the series. Also, following the letter of MOS:TVCAST is supposed to help us avoid debates just like this. —Joeyconnick (talk) 06:37, 4 May 2017 (UTC)

It is substantial enough. It doesn't have to be anything too crazy to be substantial. In episodes after the pilot, his credit was even specifically changed to a guest starring credit. It's not like some other series, where someone was still main cast and just being credited as starring only in the episodes they appeared in. The downgrade was specifically reflected in the series' credits. Likewise for the other. Amaury (talk | contribs) 06:44, 4 May 2017 (UTC)

(ec)And, again, we talked about this very issue during the MOS:TV discussions on TVCAST. - You might have talked about it, but there is nothing in the MOS to provide an exception and I don't see consensus at the discussion that supports your position. Others did say that the method used at The 100 is the best, or at least a good, way to handle such changes. It provides for consistency throughout the project, and that's what the MOS changes were all about.

In episodes after the pilot, his credit was even specifically changed to a guest starring credit. - That's really irrelevant. If a person is demoted to recurring, they still remain listed as starring, per the MOS. --AussieLegend (✉) 06:47, 4 May 2017 (UTC)

(edit conflict) If they were demoted after a season or even after a non-pilot episode, then yes, they should remain listed. However, again, pilots are prototypes, and no matter how small or big, there will always be differences in the pilots compared to the rest of the series. (There could be multiple reasons for someone's billing status being downgraded from a main role to a guest/recurring role.) As such, we go by the second episode onward if from the second episode onward everything stays consistent, though different from the pilot, of course. Amaury (talk | contribs) 06:53, 4 May 2017 (UTC)

You're never going to get 100% consistency – not only is it an impossible goal, it's probably also an undesirable one. Again, pretending pilot episodes are a "regular episode" ignores everything about how they are made – a good percentage of pilots are unformed blobs that are barely more than a "highlight reel" designed to sell a concept to a network – series often undergo substantial retooling after they are picked up to series. I'm not going to sign on to the idea that we should follow the cast listings based on pilot in 100% of cases. It's simply a bad idea. (Again: see Seinfeld as one glaring example of what I'm talking about...) --IJBall (contribs • talk) 06:54, 4 May 2017 (UTC)

BTW, I'm the one that complimented the Kelly Hu situation at The 100 – it is a good solution, for that particular series. But I think the Constantine solution, and the one current at Beyond, are also good solutions for their situations. One size won't fit all 100% of the time... --IJBall (contribs • talk) 07:01, 4 May 2017 (UTC)

Why wouldn't The 100 solution work for this series? --AussieLegend (✉) 07:09, 4 May 2017 (UTC)

(edit conflict) No, it actually looks to be pretty substantial in the case of Beyond. This is bigger than the Kelly Hu situation, where one castmember disappeared after the pilot – in this show, one was downgraded, and another was made main cast in episode #2 (with third-billing, apparently): that's a far larger change than in the vast majority of pilot-series continuities. I think the current version of the article handles this situation satisfactorily. I do not see a reason to include Calloway in the main cast list based just on the pilot, a la the Constantine situation – it's obvious they decided to go in a different direction after they filmed the pilot... In any case, this is not the only situation of its kind: there's a reason we don't include Lee Garlington in the main cast list for Seinfeld... --IJBall (contribs • talk) 06:50, 4 May 2017 (UTC)

You're never going to get 100% consistency, but there is no point to being inconsistent when something can be handled in a way that makes the situation fully MOS compliant. A note explaining why something happened is far more logical than listing cast in a way that can confuse a reader or result in new editors assuming that the way the article exists is a general rule.

This is bigger than the Kelly Hu situation, where one castmember disappeared after the pilot – in this show, one was downgraded, and another was made main cast in episode #2 - This argument seems to be blowing the situation out of all proportion. A note explaining the downgrade of one cast member is no different to the Kelly Hu situation. Adding the other cast member to the list, per WP:TVCAST, handles the other issue. It's really no different to what happened to The 100, or any other series. A note should certainly be added to the second cast member's prose stating that the person was upgraded to starring cast after the pilot.

As such, we go by the second episode onward if from the second episode onward everything stays consistent, though different from the pilot, of course. - That's not in the MOS and, as I already noted, there seems no consensus for this position at the previously linked discussion. --AussieLegend (✉) 07:07, 4 May 2017 (UTC)

I don't know how to be any clearer here – MOS is a guideline, and such is not designed to cover 100% of situations, and is not designed to be followed 100% of the time. I care less about the guidelines than the best encyclopedia possible. That is why we have WP:IAR. We can disagree how we get there, but I'm not going to blindly follow a guideline when I think doing so won't lead to the best result... And I think I've said I'm going to say all I'm going to here. I'm certainly not going to sign off on the idea that we should immediately go and add Lee Garlington to the Seinfeld cast list, which seems to be the inevitable conclusion of sticking to the "We must always follow MOS:TVCSAT 100% of the time" viewpoint. --IJBall (contribs • talk) 07:17, 4 May 2017 (UTC)

It doesn't matter that the MOS is a guideline. As it says in the template at the top of every part of the MOS, "it is a generally accepted standard that editors should attempt to follow". There are certainly times where it is necessary to divert slightly, but if you can comply with the MOS, why wouldn't you? Doing so is best practice. WP:IAR isn't a get out of gaol card. You can't just say "IAR" and do what you want. You need to justify your decision and I don't see any real justification for not complying with the MOS in this article. --AussieLegend (✉) 07:33, 4 May 2017 (UTC)

Regarding Seinfeld, I never watched that program as I simply don't like Jerry Seinfeld. However, I just looked at the pilot (That's time I'll never get back). In its original airing, there were no starring credits. These were added later for syndication, so not including Garlington is entirely appropriate and MOS compliant as we list according to original broadcast credits, and the syndicated version was was not the original broadcast. The first broadcast credits were in the next episode, which is listed as episode 1 in many sources. --AussieLegend (✉) 08:10, 4 May 2017 (UTC)

Critical, creator and fan reception to betrayal and fanbase rivalry at the Lexa (The 100) article

Hi, everyone. Opinions are needed on the following dispute at the Lexa (The 100) article: Talk:Lexa (The 100)#Inclusion of betrayal and fanbase rivalry section. A permalink for it is here. The issue concerns whether or not these two aspects of the fandom should be covered in the article. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 23:32, 2 May 2017 (UTC)

Also note that, for anyone who doesn't want to be spoiled on this series, the discussion does contain a significant spoiler. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 23:35, 2 May 2017 (UTC)

OMG, what a massive collection of fancruft. Everything should go, and a good bit more besides. --Drmargi (talk) 00:14, 3 May 2017 (UTC)

Best if you reply there with your reasons and a basis for deleting the content, against the already-existing solid reasons for keeping it. -- Alex^TW 00:19, 3 May 2017 (UTC)

Thanks, AlexTheWhovian. I certainly don't see how WP:Fancruft applies. If fancruft is the case (despite the critical and creator commentary on everything I've included in the article), then a number of our WP:GA and WP:FA articles should be de-listed. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 00:48, 3 May 2017 (UTC)

Seriously? They're using fan group portmanteaus, arguing over relationships, taking sides, etc. And that was as much as was readable. It's ALL fancruft and as good as example as I've ever seen. Bear in mind: I don't watch the show, so I have no vested interest. That makes me completely objective. People invested in the show can't make a judgment about what is fancruft the way someone objective can. Believe me, it's silly, it's trivial and it's complete, classic and unmitigated fancruft. --Drmargi (talk) 01:15, 3 May 2017 (UTC)

So, the same discussion is being held in two places now? As I said. Best if you reply there. -- Alex^TW 01:23, 3 May 2017 (UTC)

Drmargi, yes, seriously. Jugging by the discussion you had with Izno above and what you are arguing now, you do not understand what fancruft means. Do read the WP:Fancruft essay. The things you are calling fancruft with regard to the Lexa (The 100) article are significant aspects of that character's notability and/or reception. Reception to a character includes fan reception, not just critical reception. In the case of the Lexa article, I've included all three -- critical reception, fan reception, and creator commentary on the reception. The creator and various media sources have quite literally responded to all of the things you are calling fancruft, which means the material is not just some silly and/or irrelevant material we should not cover. Lexa's betrayal, for example, was a big part of the character's arc. Looking at the various reliable sources I've included on these matters, or a simple Google search, will show you that what I've included on the character is what is significantly discussed with regard to the character. This character was a part of a huge debate in 2016. What should the article consist of if not what I included? To be clearer, I know how to be objective when writing a Wikipedia fictional character article. I include the plot summary, the creation and development of the character, and then the reception to the character. None of that is fancruft. I've contributed to a number of fictional character articles being elevated to GA and FA. Have you? How many GA and FA character articles should I point you to doing the same thing I've done? Given your definition of fancruft, I think that you not having watched the series is irrelevant. In any case, AlexTheWhovian is correct. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 01:46, 3 May 2017 (UTC)

There is nothing wrong per say with the content. THe header for the section could be adjusted. I think there is some organizational issues in the article and the plot section for 2 seasons is WAY too long. Looks like someone wrote something about every single episode she appears in, instead of summarizing the overall events. Separate discussion. TO the point, there is nothing wrong about collecting fan reaction, as long as it is reliably sourced by third-party sources and not just fansites or blogs talking about it. Or anecdotal evidence. It looks like you have good sources, but I didn't read the content to see if it's presented differently. Also, "fan" should be avoided. I would replace "fan" with "viewers", as that is more professional when writing and you don't have to be a fan of the series to have an opinion after watching what happens. Overall, a lot of great content in there...just needs a good copyedit and structuring. But yes, "fan" reaction is acceptable if it's covered by reliable, third-party sources.  BIGNOLE  (Contact me) 11:55, 3 May 2017 (UTC)

Thanks for commenting, Bignole, after I requested your opinion. I'd still like to hear from TAnthony, but I understand if he'd rather not weigh in. I get what you are saying about the plot summary; as I noted in an edit summary (in the article's edit history), I literally copied and pasted that content from the List of The 100 episodes article and then tweaked the additions and filled in any missing detail. I've tried to think of a way to trim it, but because the character was recurring, important context is missing for any trim that my mind comes up with. Without that context, it's literally like a collection of Lexa scenes that leave you wondering what is going on. But, like I noted on the article talk page, I do intend to source the plot section, even though it currently names the episode for each plot arc. Removing the name of the episodes and letting them exist via references will trim a little of the plot. As for "fan," I used that and "fanbase" for two of the headings and for a few other instances because the sources do and "viewers" is more general. Most of the reception regarding this character concerns the Clarke/Lexa fanbase and the views on the character's demise. To state "viewers" in these cases seems too general, when it's really just a subset of the show's viewers. Also "fanbase rivalry" flows while "viewer rivalry" or "viewership rivalry" seems odd. But I'll likely be integrating that section anyway. And I do state "viewers" at some points in the article. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 22:53, 3 May 2017 (UTC)

It would help if people here would actually read the article (I note some haven't) and comment on the article's talk page. When the content was initially removed I looked at what was removed and the editor did have a point - there was redundancy and the discussion of the fanbase (which is actually the best way to describe it) was not as significant as it seemed to be. For example, two of the references used are from the same source and another mentions fan reaction as a minor point. The removing editor later noted that the article was overly long. When you compare related articles, this too seems a valid argument. The article for the main character is a mere 860 words and doesn't mention mention Lexa at all. Even the main series article is only 1,792 words. This article though, which is about a recurring character who appeared in less than 30% of episodes, weighs in at a hefty 8,282 words. I made a fairly brief comment,[7] and was immediately attacked with rubbish about an RfC that had nothing to do with what was removed. --AussieLegend (✉) 04:21, 4 May 2017 (UTC)

Yes, it would help if editors actually surveyed the sources on this character. We can only work with what the sources mostly cover. Like I stated at the article's talk page and above, I looked at the sources regarding this character. The vast majority of the sources about this character concern her relationship with Clarke and her demise. The article reflects that. The sources regarding this character are very much about the Clarke/Lexa fanbase. The redundancy claim is asinine when the following is considered: The "Reception" section of MOS:TV specifically states, "Generally, this would be where critical response to the character—not necessarily an analysis of the character, like what would be found in the 'Characterization' section—would be placed." I noted at the article talk page that I'm not going to include portrayal and creator analyses of a character's motives (a betrayal in this case) in a section that is specifically about reception to those motives. Not unless I think it flows better there. There is no redundancy; one section includes what went into the writing and portrayal of Lexa's betrayal, and the other includes how fans and critics felt about the betrayal. Two different things. All in all, this a personal taste matter. When it comes to fan reaction to Lexa's betrayal, I noted that I was not going to focus on that, as there was not much more to state on it, and that the viewers' opinions on it is literally summed up by the quote from Andy Swift of TVLine. And before that quote, I sum up the fans' feelings. There are other sources commenting on fan reaction to Lexa's betrayal; I simply have not included them. Should I engage in citation overkill? I don't think so. When it comes to the Clarke/Lexa vs. Clarke/Bellamy matter, this is also significant to the Clarke/Lexa fanbase, which is why both the creator and Clarke's portrayer (Eliza Taylor) have weighed in on the matter; see here and here; I haven't yet included that TV Guide source. If this was not a significant aspect of the Clarke/Lexa fanbase, there would not be reliable sources on it and the creator and Eliza Taylor would not be commenting on it.

As for a supposed attack with regard to a previous RfC, and the size of the article, people can see what I actually stated. I noted that I go back to what people have stated about Battlefield Earth and similar articles; I also included my detail of Jennifer's Body as an example. Some editors feel that these articles have too much detail simply because these films were massive box office and/or critical failures. Similarly, it's clear that a few editors feel that the Lexa article should not get the detail her article gets simply because she was a recurring character or because they find the character trivial and/or dislike her. I repeat: "I'm not going to sacrifice the comprehensive quality of this article simply because some find this character trivial and/or feel that the reaction to her was blown out of proportion, and therefore that the attention given to the character in this article is undeserved. I'm not going to sacrifice the comprehensive quality of this article simply because the Clarke Griffin article is currently in poor shape or because editors have not expanded The 100 (TV series) article in the comprehensive way it can be expanded; that article is lacking. There are a number of character articles as big as, or bigger than, [the Lexa article]; featured article Pauline Fowler is an example. Given the abundance of sources on Lexa, the fact that Lexa was a recurring character is irrelevant when it comes to how we should cover her impact." The Avatar (2009 film) article that I elevated to GA has a lot of detail as well. But, of course, many people have no issue with the level of detail in that article. I, however, recently suggested on its talk page that we should consider if anything there needs cutting. So I am not blinded by things that I like; I do, however, cover all significant sides of a topic when writing an article. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 23:24, 5 May 2017 (UTC)

Discussion at Wikipedia:Templates for discussion/Log/2017 May 3#Template:Game of Thrones background colors

You are invited to join the discussion at Wikipedia:Templates for discussion/Log/2017 May 3#Template:Game of Thrones background colors.

Discussion: This is in concerns on whether or not a template should be used to replace repeated colours within a television series article, using templates such as {{Game of Thrones background colors}} and edits such as this. -- Alex^TW 07:47, 3 May 2017 (UTC)

Originally, I believed that the editor was only planning to execute their edits on a few article; however, they have since stated that they plan to do it for every television series and their articles. -- Alex^TW 13:36, 3 May 2017 (UTC)

Looking more at this case, that's what I get from it too. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 23:45, 5 May 2017 (UTC)

Discussion at User talk:Timmyshin#Please stop moving Hong Kong TV articles

You are invited to join the discussion at User talk:Timmyshin#Please stop moving Hong Kong TV articles. An editor has been moving a series of Hong TV articles from "(Hong Kong TV series)" disambiguation to "(HK TV series)" disambiguation, which is apparently contrary to WP:NCTV (not to mention confusing!). --IJBall (contribs • talk) 13:15, 8 May 2017 (UTC)

• Note: Discussion seems to have moved to WT:NCTV. I would appreciate it if some of the WP:TV regulars would stop by and offer their opinion on this – if it's just me and the original editor we're not going to get anywhere on this issue... --IJBall (contribs • talk) 14:31, 8 May 2017 (UTC)

Next MOS:TV discussion - Themes section

The next MOS:TV section discussion is ongoing. It is on the "Themes" section. You can find the discussion here. - Favre1fan93 (talk) 00:12, 9 May 2017 (UTC)

Citation overkill proposal at WP:Citation overkill talk page

Opinions are needed on the following: Wikipedia talk:Citation overkill#Citations. A permalink for it is here. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 06:26, 9 May 2017 (UTC)

Survivor NZ: Nicaragua

I have added sources at Survivor NZ: Nicaragua for the people voted out in the first two episodes, but these have been removed on the grounds that other Survivor series do not have such sources and they clog up the tables. I would appreciate some feedback on whether these sources are necessary or desirable at Talk:Survivor NZ: Nicaragua.-gadfium 04:15, 10 May 2017 (UTC)

List of Pretty Little Liars episodes, Pretty Little Liars (season 7) - anyone know what happened?

I'm looking at the Episodes section in both articles, and something is not right. The summaries for every episode of the series are displaying in the LoE article, while in the Season 7 article, they have essentially disappeared. I don't know when this happened, but there has been some recent spamming at both articles. (IPs have been persistently putting in WP:SPAMLINKs to watch a just released episode week after week.) Anyone willing to fix the problem? MPFitz1968 (talk) 06:10, 10 May 2017 (UTC)

See Talk:List of The Americans episodes § Episode summaries here. -- Alex^TW 06:17, 10 May 2017 (UTC)

Thanks, Alex. MPFitz1968 (talk) 06:23, 10 May 2017 (UTC)

No problems. Once Prime's bot goes through and updates the usage of all templates, it'll be back to normal. -- Alex^TW 06:25, 10 May 2017 (UTC)

Actually, there are problems, and pretty significant ones as explained above and at WT:BRFA#Re-examination of approval - PrimeBOT 15. --AussieLegend (✉) 19:11, 10 May 2017 (UTC)

Episode list sublist template

Main page: Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Television/Archive 24 § Episode list sublist template

Updating on the above discussion (summary: convert usage of {{Episode list/sublist}} from {{Episode list/sublist|Destination for transclusion}} to {{Episode list/sublist|Location of episode table}}).

BRFA approved for trial. -- Alex^TW 02:49, 8 May 2017 (UTC)

Bot trial complete and module updates made. -- Alex^TW 23:37, 9 May 2017 (UTC)

Bot approved to make changes to all templates. This is where the changes become permanent. -- Alex^TW 04:01, 10 May 2017 (UTC)

@AlexTheWhovian: Unfortunately, since the bot hasn't run, episode summaries have disappeared from season articles, resulting in editors making edits like this to fix the problem. At the same time, summaries have appeared in episode list articles when they shouldn't be, all aparently because of this edit to Module:Episode list. We can't have this sort of disruption for an extended period. A rethink on how to implement this change is needed. --AussieLegend (✉) 17:50, 10 May 2017 (UTC)

List of The Simpsons episodes (seasons 1–20) is broke. I'm sick of babysitting it, and debating how to deal with the problem, and am in wonder that you managed to get approval for a bot to make this mess. Please fix it. wbm1058 (talk) 18:12, 10 May 2017 (UTC)

The idea that, as you claimed to get approval for this, it will not break any pages, no is...#@%! You should have implemented a new parameter or a new subtemplate to transition something like this. wbm1058 (talk) 18:35, 10 May 2017 (UTC)

I'm in full agreement here. We really needed two templates, the original, to keep unconverted articles stable, and a transition template, to which articles would be converted. After all articles were converted, the original template would be updated and then a second bot run would convert all articles back to the original. That way, not a single article would be disrupted. --AussieLegend (✉) 18:59, 10 May 2017 (UTC)

No need for a second bot run. Just implement the new syntax in Template:Episode list/sub-list, run the bot to change everything to use that, then when done, deprecate the old template and just redirect Template:Episode list/sublist to Template:Episode list/sub-list. wbm1058 (talk) 19:33, 10 May 2017 (UTC)

Yes, that's an option too. --AussieLegend (✉) 20:59, 10 May 2017 (UTC)

@AussieLegend and Wbm1058: Entirely overkill. A mountain over a molehill over your impatience. The issue is solved. -- Alex^TW 22:36, 10 May 2017 (UTC)

Not at all. Because you chose to modify the module 20 hours before the bot eventually ran, you caused disruption in every article except the 150 that were in the test run. Editors were confused (as eveidenced on this page) and changes were made that could have resulted in articles being broken for an even longer period. One article was severely broken for all of that time. This has all been acknowledged at WP:BRFA. It's not at all the way that a significant change should be made. There are much better ways, as Wbm1058 and I have noted. If you can't accept that, and just keep brushing it off, perhaps you should hand in your TE permission. I can tell you, if you had done this in business the consequences would have been severe, the least of which would have been instant dismissal. --AussieLegend (✉) 03:33, 11 May 2017 (UTC)

I'm not going to have this same discussion in two separate places. Luckily for me, I'm not hired by you, nor is Wikipedia a place to teach me business habits. Cheers to that. -- Alex^TW 03:52, 11 May 2017 (UTC)

Eve - featured article candidate

I've nominated the article about the television series Eve for Featured Article consideration. This article is a short-lived UPN sitcom yhat revolves around two sets of male and female friends attempting to navigate relationships with the opposite sex. Comments would be appreciated, at Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Eve (2003 TV series)/archive1. Thank you for your time. Aoba47 (talk) 19:41, 11 May 2017 (UTC)

Content dispute about lead length

Hello everyone; could I request some third-party eyes on an ongoing dispute at Talk:Inside No. 9#Lead section? Josh Milburn (talk) 11:30, 15 May 2017 (UTC)

Star Wars: Forces of Destiny

Does this qualify as a TV show or a web series short? Because it's been added to Felicity Jones and I am not sure it qualifies. Govvy (talk) 21:36, 16 May 2017 (UTC)

I wouldn't call it a TV show, and I don't think that article does either. It seems to be a web shorts series, I guess. - adamstom97 (talk) 21:49, 16 May 2017 (UTC)

That's the way I saw it, I removed it from Jones article before, but it was added back to her TV credits and I inclined to remove it again from her TV credits. I didn't get a response when I posted the question on her talk page a little while back. Govvy (talk) 21:56, 16 May 2017 (UTC)

Quick clarification needed...

OK, the following quote is from WP:TVSHOW: "...in most cases, a television series is not eligible for an article until its scheduling as an ongoing series has been formally confirmed by a television network." Does this mean that a series just needs to go into production (for episodes past the pilot) to qualify for an article? (Presumably because, once a network has ordered a series into production for episodes past the pilot, it will surely air the series eventually...) Or does it mean that an approximate premiere date (e.g. "fall 2017") actually needs to be announced before an article is appropriate?... TIA. --IJBall (contribs • talk) 00:16, 17 May 2017 (UTC)

I always took it to mean that we need an official series order. That usually comes after a pilot has been made, so we know that at least one episode already exists. For shows ordered straight to series, waiting till production starts is probably the equivalent. - adamstom97 (talk) 01:36, 17 May 2017 (UTC)

OK, that's helpful, as your last point would then apply to the specific case I'm thinking of: Draft:Knight Squad – that means the article shouldn't go into mainspace until production actually starts this fall... Thanks! --IJBall (contribs • talk) 02:17, 17 May 2017 (UTC)

Popular pages report

We – Community Tech – are happy to announce that the Popular pages bot is back up-and-running (after a one year hiatus)! You're receiving this message because your WikiProject or task force is signed up to receive the popular pages report. Every month, Community Tech bot will post at Wikipedia:WikiProject Television/Archive 24/Popular pages with a list of the most-viewed pages over the previous month that are within the scope of WikiProject Television.

We've made some enhancements to the original report. Here's what's new:

• The pageview data includes both desktop and mobile data.
• The report will include a link to the pageviews tool for each article, to dig deeper into any surprises or anomalies.
• The report will include the total pageviews for the entire project (including redirects).

We're grateful to Mr.Z-man for his original Mr.Z-bot, and we wish his bot a happy robot retirement. Just as before, we hope the popular pages reports will aid you in understanding the reach of WikiProject Television, and what articles may be deserving of more attention. If you have any questions or concerns please contact us at m:User talk:Community Tech bot.

Warm regards, the Community Tech Team 17:16, 17 May 2017 (UTC)

13 Reasons Why?! Really??!!! [[File:|18px|link=]] --IJBall (contribs • talk) 17:25, 17 May 2017 (UTC)

Also, do we really consider Game of Thrones to be of "Top" importance to WP:TV? – I can see rating it as "High" importance, but "Top" importance really seems like a stretch... --IJBall (contribs • talk) 17:33, 17 May 2017 (UTC)

Well, I'm not very surprised by 13 Reasons. I'm more surprised by its general explosion of popularity that led to this. I also agree GoT as top is a stretch. It's mega popular but not like a keystone series. ~Cheers, TenTonParasol 18:20, 17 May 2017 (UTC)

I'm somewhat surprised WP:TV doesn't have something like WP:VG/A#Importance scale. --Izno (talk) 20:49, 17 May 2017 (UTC)

There is one: Wikipedia:WikiProject Television/Assessment#Importance scale. It could certainly be fleshed out, though, esp. on the TV series side of things (i.e. it needs more examples...). The criteria needs more work too – e.g. "High" importance should include series that have received international notability, but that maybe aren't "TV defining" (e.g. Game of Thrones). That's something we can maybe talk about – I'll try to remember to bring this up when I have more time in a couple of weeks... --IJBall (contribs • talk) 01:25, 18 May 2017 (UTC)

Well, I more meant the cross-categorization with the types of articles this project covers--most projects have something so un-refined as the TV assessment table. --Izno (talk) 01:57, 18 May 2017 (UTC)

Discussion about logo at Talk:Three's Company

The show logo is discussed at Talk:Three's Company#Show logo. --George Ho (talk) 22:26, 24 May 2017 (UTC)

Comic Relief special

Comic Relief special is about a particular episode, wouldn't there be many episodes like this for multiple shows? -- 65.94.169.56 (talk) 05:26, 26 May 2017 (UTC)

Adding plot summaries of content that has been hacked/leaked

Input is appreciated here - on whether it's appropriate to write summaries of episodes that have not been released but were hacked and leaked. Also, whether or not the hack+leak should be mentioned in the lead. Lapadite (talk) 14:01, 26 May 2017 (UTC)

Updating WP:TVINTL

Hi all. The next discussion on the "Release" section of MOS:TV (including WP:TVINTL) has begun. I hope all will join, as I know this has been a strong discussion point in the past. The discussion can be found here. - Favre1fan93 (talk) 19:41, 26 May 2017 (UTC)

Single-season LoE articles?

I've been doing some merging of lists of episodes for single-season TV series back to their parent TV series articles lately, and I'm wondering: is there a quick way to figure out which single-season LoE articles still exist? Is there a category that covers this or something? (And, if there isn't, would it be difficult to create one?...) Because if I can get a list of single-season LoE articles that are still out there, I'd be willing to volunteer to merge the rest of them (where warranted). TIA. --IJBall (contribs • talk) 17:01, 17 May 2017 (UTC)

(edit conflict)@IJBall: Well, one of them was Nickelodeon's Sam & Cat, which essentially had a LoE article created even before that series premiered in 2013 (and should not have had one). We did have a discussion about merging on the LoE's talk page, but due to the thirty-some episodes the only season of the show had, there was no consensus to do so. No doubt a huge exception to the rule, but I would be curious that had no LoE been created, due to the large number of episodes ordered for season 1, would there have been a split to an LoE? MPFitz1968 (talk) 17:19, 17 May 2017 (UTC)

Yep – was involved in that discussion, and was aware that it'll be one of the exceptions. But I suspect there are plenty of esp. c.1995–2008 "one-season wonder" TV series out there that have standalone LoE articles that need to be merged. So I'd really like a list of those so that I can start working on merging them... --IJBall (contribs • talk) 17:22, 17 May 2017 (UTC)

I'm guessing the lack of response here indicates that there's no simple category that lists list of episodes articles for single-season TV series, and there's no simple way to create one?... --IJBall (contribs • talk) 21:53, 28 May 2017 (UTC)

Another article naming question...

I just discovered that the articles 1st and 10 (ESPN TV series) and 1st & Ten (HBO TV series) exist. As per recent consensus on the issue here and at WP:NCTV, we should not be primarily disambiguating TV programs by TV network any longer.

So, my question is this – do others think it is sufficient if we move these two articles to 1st and 10 (TV series) and 1st & Ten (TV series) on the basis of WP:SMALLDETAILS? Or should we move these to 1st and 10 (2003 TV series) and 1st & Ten (1984 TV series) to avoid any ambiguity at all?... Thanks in advance. --IJBall (contribs • talk) 21:01, 26 May 2017 (UTC)

I feel they are different enough that you could do without the extra disambiguation, and just have hatnotes at the top of the articles that can send readers to the other one if that is where they wanted to go. - adamstom97 (talk) 21:30, 26 May 2017 (UTC)

It might be worth Star Wars: Clone Wars (2003 TV series) and Star Wars: The Clone Wars (2008 TV series) exist, but "the" is the only real difference in their titles. Personally, I'd err on caution and similarly go 1st and 10 (2003 TV series) and 1st & Ten (1984 TV series). ~Cheers, TenTonParasol 22:00, 26 May 2017 (UTC)

OK, will wait for more opinions, but I'm leaning towards the second option now, as there's now one opinion that WP:SMALLDETAILS isn't enough here... --IJBall (contribs • talk) 22:34, 26 May 2017 (UTC)

I'd do as TenTonParasol suggested, and use the year disambiguator, plus hatnotes as well. - Favre1fan93 (talk) 03:55, 27 May 2017 (UTC)

 Done – second proposal followed. --IJBall (contribs • talk) 22:55, 28 May 2017 (UTC)

LISTGAP compliant cast list formatting

Hi all. Per a discussion at WT:FILM (perma link here) that stemmed from some of our discussions here and at MOS:TV on cast list formatting with line breaks and MOS:LISTGAP, I have created the new template {{Cast list break}}. This template creates the sometimes desired formatting of putting character descriptions on a new line when the text wraps to a second line, but does not produce the screen reader issue that was encountered previously (see template examples for this). If there are any questions on the template, please comment here or drop me a line on my talk. I would like to add this into the MOS to alert users to it, and will begin implementing it on some of the articles I watch and work on within the project. - Favre1fan93 (talk) 18:42, 29 May 2017 (UTC)

Almost identical background colors in 2 or more seasons of a TV show

You are invited to join the discussion at Talk:House_of_Cards_(season_4)#Background_color . -  Radiphus  01:44, 30 May 2017 (UTC)

Is this an issue, and how should it be dealt with? I have proposed to change one of those seasons' background color. -  Radiphus  01:44, 30 May 2017 (UTC)

Awards

Hey all, I can't remember if the community (TV or otherwise) has a general attitude toward awards, because of how prolific awards of all types are. Specifically: Do we require that an article exists on an award (and thus its notability has been properly established) before adding it to an article? Here's my ferinstance: Here I removed the Golden Petal Awards from Kasam Tere Pyaar Ki because there is no article on Golden Petal Awards. As I perform due diligence, I see that it is a viewer's choice award hosted by Colors TV (an Indian TV network). Should I self-revert and reinstate the awards? We seem to care about the Kids' Choice Awards and such, which is basically the same thing--a viewer's choice award hosted by a TV network. Thanks, Cyphoidbomb (talk) 14:51, 1 June 2017 (UTC)

In general, the practice (and I'd describe as more "informal" than "formal") is that awards that don't have standalone articles can be removed from awards tables. Certainly, that is a legitimate reason for removing an entry from an awards table (or for removing the awards table entirely, if it is populated by just awards with no standalone articles). I personally don't think that the absence of an awards article requires removal from an awards table, though – just that absence of an article is a justifiable reason for removal... FWIW. --IJBall (contribs • talk) 21:32, 1 June 2017 (UTC)

Incest in television

Would anyone like to volunteer in cleaning out Category:Incest in television? For more information, see the worklist and the related discussion. Thank you in advance. Marcocapelle (talk) 19:11, 2 June 2017 (UTC)

Feedback requested

Hi all, could use one or two opinions at Talk:Naagin (TV series)#Cast section. (I pretty much just talk to myself at that article...) Short story: I cleaned up the cast section, and I'm curious if there are thoughts for how to improve it further. I'm not a big fan of the Season parentheticals I created, but if you look at the before and after, I think it'll be fairly clear why I had to condense the section. Thanks, Cyphoidbomb (talk) 19:38, 3 June 2017 (UTC)

South Park (season 21)

South Park (season 21) was created yesterday. However, it contains only scant details, basically renewal information and an unsourced episode table, and should not exist per WP:TVUPCOMING. Both Favre1fan93 and I have attempted to redirect the article but there is opposition from two editors, one of who is the article creator. More eyes on this article would be appreciated. --AussieLegend (✉) 18:02, 31 May 2017 (UTC)

Agreed. - Favre1fan93 (talk) 18:15, 31 May 2017 (UTC)

I have reverted the article creation, again, per WP:TVUPCOMING and WP:NOTTVGUIDE (which it fails), and the fact that WP:OSE. - Favre1fan93 (talk) 18:18, 31 May 2017 (UTC)

Why not just move it to WP:Draftspace?... --IJBall (contribs • talk) 21:28, 1 June 2017 (UTC)

There was really not enough in the article to bother moving it to draftspace. After some edit-warring that lead to an AN3 report, the redirected article was indef create protected, but one of the involved editors is still arguing that the article complies with TVUPCOMING, to the point where he has now headed to DRN. --AussieLegend (✉) 04:30, 2 June 2017 (UTC)

My $0.02 in cases like these is that sometimes the easiest way to resolve conflicts like this is to just send the article to Draftspace, and have the article creator justify to WP:AfC or other knowledgeable editors that it qualifies for Mainspace. FWIW. --IJBall (contribs • talk) 04:33, 2 June 2017 (UTC)

In hindsight, this might have been the better option. The editor driving the attempt to recreate the article, which is now indef create protected as the result of a WP:3RRN report has opened a discussion at WP:DRN that the other 3 editors, one of whom was the original page creator, have ignored. As soon as that closed he requested mediation. I'm hoping this is just one stubborn editor but maybe we should be looking at WP:TVUPCOMING again with a view to tightening up what we expect in a season article as a minimum. He seems to believe that addition of sourced production codes is significant and complies with the requirements of TVUPCOMING. --AussieLegend (✉) 05:48, 5 June 2017 (UTC)

This also seems to be a notability issue as well, of which the TV project has nothing significant in terms of guidelines. That is on the "to-do list" of something to discuss and hopefully create soon. - Favre1fan93 (talk) 16:59, 5 June 2017 (UTC)

Report on the critical reception in the introduction at Iron Fist (TV series)

Can we get some comments on the Talk:Iron Fist (TV series)#"Mixed to negative" is unsourced dispute? The introduction of Iron Fist (TV series) maintains that the series received mixed reviews, but the overwhelming majority of reviews for the series have been overwhelmingly negative, which is obvious not only by the review aggregators but also by a review of the media sources reporting on the critical consensus regarding the series. Hardly any sources state that the critical consensus for the series was mixed. 72.213.205.141 (talk) 17:06, 4 June 2017 (UTC)

When posting requests for comments from uninvolved editors, your posts should remain neutral to both sides, so that editors may determine their own view of the discussion, without being forced one way or the other. So, I would recommend that you modify your post to reflect this. -- Alex^TW 17:09, 4 June 2017 (UTC)

I did not report that one side is claiming that "mixed" is the case and the other side is claiming otherwise. I focused on what the lead says in contrast to what the overwhelming majority of sources say. It is a fact that the overwhelming majority of sources say that the series received overwhelmingly negative reviews. And I provided sources showing just that. 72.213.205.141 (talk) 17:29, 4 June 2017 (UTC)

You attempted to force your negative view on neutral editors in what should have been a neutral post. Very bad faith of you; to other editors, it seems the anonymous editor has no intent to discuss this properly. -- Alex^TW 17:31, 4 June 2017 (UTC)

Negative view? I reported a fact. It is a fact that the series received overwhelmingly negative reviews. It is not debatable unless you show show proof that it is. I've provided my proof that it isn't. You simply don't like that the series received overwhelmingly negative reviews, which is why you reverted me on it back in March. It took Favre1fan93 coming in and fixing it. I don't understand why Favre1fan93 eventually gave into "mixed," but it is incorrect. Stop trying to distract from the real issue. 72.213.205.141 (talk) 17:41, 4 June 2017 (UTC)

Your first post in this thread is not neutrally worded. The less detail you provide in a comment request for disputes, the better. Ex: "Comments requested at ___. The dispute is about how to summarize the series' critical response." Loading a comment request with the specific facts you want others to consider before they even have a chance to look at the dispute, is not ideal. Regards, Cyphoidbomb (talk) 04:14, 6 June 2017 (UTC)

Category:Female characters in television

Comments appreciated at Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2017 June 6#Category:Female characters in television. Thanks.— TAnthony^Talk 18:35, 6 June 2017 (UTC)

Massive WP:NCTV pile-up of articles about Hunter TV series...

Please regard, this: Hunter (disambiguation)#Film and television. Based on this, the following articles exist:

• Hunter (U.S. TV series), an American detective show of 1984–1991
• Hunter (U.S. 1977 TV series), an American espionage television show in 1977
• Hunter (Australian TV series), an Australian children's show in the late 1980s
• Hunter (Australian Crawfords TV series), a 1967–1969 Australian espionage series
• Hunter (British TV series), a 2009 BBC One sequel series to Five Days
• Hunters (TV series), a 2016 TV series

The last of these is fine. The first five of these are... not. (For example, at the least, #5 should be at Hunter (UK TV series), not Hunter (British TV series)...)

But before I go ahead and try to untangle this knot, I figured I open this up to WP:TV community discussion as to what the solution should be. The simplest idea would probably simply to disambiguate those five articles by year. But I'd like to see if there are other suggestions here before proceeding... TIA. --IJBall (contribs • talk) 21:39, 1 June 2017 (UTC)

#1 & #3 premiered the same year, so going to have to use (year country TV series). #2 and #4 should also because there are 2 series in the respective countries. #5 should use (miniseries) as it was intended as a one-off, two-parter. -- Netoholic @ 02:28, 2 June 2017 (UTC)

#2 & #4 only need to be disambiguated by year – Hunter (1977 TV series) and Hunter (1967 TV series) should do the trick just fine. That's an interesting point about #5 – that's definitely an alternative option. #1 & #3 is a problem – unless we can disambiguate the latter in some other way (e.g. Hunter (childrens show)), then we may indeed be stuck with Hunter (1984 U.S. TV series) and Hunter (1984 Australian TV series), which would be very unusual (in fact, in would be the first instance I've come across where this kind of "double disambiguation" has been necessary...). Any other opinions on this?... --IJBall (contribs • talk) 03:38, 2 June 2017 (UTC)

(edit conflict) My suggestions:

• Hunter (1984 U.S. TV series), an American detective show of 1984–1991
• Hunter (1977 U.S. TV series), an American espionage television show in 1977
• Hunter (1984 Australian TV series), an Australian children's show in the late 1980s
• Hunter (1967 Australian TV series), a 1967–1969 Australian espionage series
• Hunter (miniseries), a 2009 BBC One sequel series to Five Days
• Hunters (TV series), a 2016 TV series

-- Alex^TW 03:42, 2 June 2017 (UTC)

I would do this:

• Hunter (1984 U.S. TV series)
• Hunter (1977 TV series) with a redirect at Hunter (1977 U.S. TV series)
• Hunter (1984 Australian TV series)
• Hunter (1967 TV series) with a redirect at Hunter (1967 Australian TV series)
• Hunter (miniseries)
• Hunters (TV series) with a hatnote directing readers to each of these other TV series

- Favre1fan93 (talk) 03:52, 2 June 2017 (UTC)

Yes, this is exactly what I am thinking is the way forward – this looks like the correct call. (To be clear to other editors – #2 and #4 do not require "double disambiguation", as there is no ambiguity at to what series will be found at Hunter (1967 TV series) or Hunter (1977 TV series): this is why Favre1fan93's suggestion is the "correct" way to go.) --IJBall (contribs • talk) 04:01, 2 June 2017 (UTC)

Shouldn't any hatnote be to a DAB page? Otherwise that will be the largest hatnote I've ever seen. If I am off base about that my apologies to all involved. MarnetteD|Talk 03:56, 2 June 2017 (UTC)

Yes – the hatnote should point to Hunter (disambiguation) for the reason you suggest... Though the caveat here is that if there was such a thing as a "primary subtopic", the 1984 U.S. TV series would surely be it in this case – so the hatnotes should maybe point to that one, as well as Hunter (disambiguation). --IJBall (contribs • talk) 04:01, 2 June 2017 (UTC)

OK, as there seems to be consensus, I have gone ahead and moved #5 to Hunter (miniseries) as suggested (with redirects to that from both Hunter (UK TV series) and Hunter (British TV series)). I will wait some more before moving the other 4 articles to see if there is any further comment. --IJBall (contribs • talk) 14:00, 2 June 2017 (UTC)

I endorse AlexTheWhovian's solution above. -- Netoholic @ 03:41, 7 June 2017 (UTC)

 Done – Articles moved, and articles created, as per Favre1fan93's suggestion. Additional redirects were created at Hunter (CBS TV series) and Hunter (NBC TV series) – the latter will probably be the easiest way to link to the famous 1984 U.S. TV series. --IJBall (contribs • talk) 04:14, 7 June 2017 (UTC)

Interesting how you determined the consensus when another reply was posted only a half-hour before. -- Alex^TW 04:21, 7 June 2017 (UTC)

FTR, I started doing these moves before I saw Netoholic's post (when I checked my watchlist earlier today, there was nothing new at this topic – yep, looks like the first move was at 03:05 (UTC)). Regardless, your suggestion (which Netoholic supports) requires unnecessary disambiguation which is to be avoided. Also, as per Favre1fan93's suggestion, there are now redirects even at those locations as well. --IJBall (contribs • talk) 04:30, 7 June 2017 (UTC)

WP:Citation overkill RfC

Opinions are needed on the following matter: Wikipedia talk:Citation overkill#Should this essay be changed to encourage more citations?. A WP:Permalink for it is here. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 00:57, 9 June 2017 (UTC)

Trump: The Kremlin Candidate?

Trump: The Kremlin Candidate?

New article on television documentary.

Let me know if anyone comes across additional sources? Sagecandor (talk) 22:53, 11 June 2017 (UTC)

A project (for someone...)

I just came across Lists of actors by television series. I'm pretty sure nearly every article listed here is worthy of deletion (and then Lists of actors by television series can be deleted when the project is done!), as basically WP:LISTCRUFT or WP:INDISCRIMINATE. So if someone wants to spend a day or two going through it and figuring out if anything is salvageable (and then deleting the rest)... Just sayin'. --IJBall (contribs • talk) 17:00, 14 June 2017 (UTC)

Purge the lot with hellfire (though, in most cases, we can redirect to the series page). --Izno (talk) 18:00, 14 June 2017 (UTC)

Ah, converting them to redirects is even easier. Hadn't thought about that. With that, I may try to tackle these myself (though it's not a priority, right now)... --IJBall (contribs • talk) 18:40, 14 June 2017 (UTC)

List of LGBT characters in television and radio

A situation is happening in List of LGBT characters in television and radio that needs scrutiny. Characters that were previously included in other sexual orientation sections have been transferred to Pansexual or deleted by one editor. I am not singularly qualified to know all the television series characters that are factually pansexual. I restored deleted bisexual characters only to have them deleted again by same editor. I just re-restored one, Maggie Lin from Saving Hope. Are there other editors with knowledge about pansexual characters seen on TV? Are the recent edits involving the Pansexual section correct? What is to be done about the deleted characters? Input about, and attention to, this situation would be greatly appreciated. Pyxis Solitary (talk) 05:23, 15 June 2017 (UTC)

Adding unaired episode titles?

Hi, I am an older member of wikipedia but kind of inexperienced editing pages, so please excuse my newbieness. (I have done a few edits on pages over the years but nothing too major.) Today I added some episode titles for the TV show Private Eyes but my edits were reverted with a comment stating that unaired episodes are not supposed to be added to the episode list (and that my edits were BS). I guess I am wondering if this is correct? If so, O.K. no problem. But I have seen numerous pages with unaired episodes listed and have added unaired episodes to different TV shows in the past before with nothing reverted, so I guess I wanted to check on the guideline/policy for this. I find it a bit confusing to find all the information I need in terms of policy. There is so much to read through! If someone could point out where this policy is listed that would be great, so I know not to make the mistake again. Thanks! astrogirl (talk) 11:45, 15 June 2017 (UTC)

While Robberey1705 could have most certainly reverted in a more WP:CIVIL manner, the reverting edit is correct. Per the documentation at Template:Infobox television, concerning the "num_episodes" parameter: The number of episodes released. This parameter should only be incremented when new episodes air. An inline citation is required if the total number of episodes produced is greater than the number aired, such as in the case of a show being cancelled. -- Alex^TW 11:54, 15 June 2017 (UTC)

Oops, I didn't notice the episode titles weren't rolled back. I apologise. Thank you for the link to the episode count policy, I appreciate it! Hope I haven't offended anyone, I'm just trying to learn. astrogirl (talk) 12:22, 15 June 2017 (UTC)

Perfectly alright. I only noticed the infobox issue after I looked at only the revert that you linked, it seems that I didn't read the initial post properly either. Adding episodes titles that are unaired is perfectly alright, as long as you have a source to back them up, which you don't seem to have added. This is so that it conforms to WP:V and doesn't constitute any original research per WP:OR. I strongly recommend adding a source that supports the episode titles and credits as soon as possible, else you risk them being deleted for being unsourced. -- Alex^TW 12:37, 15 June 2017 (UTC)