Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Indigenous peoples of North America/Archive 23

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History of the Human Trafficking of Native Americans in the United States

Hello, WikiProject,

This article was just moved into the main space of the project and I was hoping that someone who knows more about the subject could look it over and make sure it is consistent with Wikipedia's coverage of Native Americans and Indigenous People in the U.S. Thanks for any help you can supply. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 20:48, 15 December 2021 (UTC)

I have moved that article to Draft space: Draft:History of the Human Trafficking of Native Americans in the United States. It is full of glaring errors, and will need serious editing to be fit for main space. - Donald Albury 22:36, 15 December 2021 (UTC)

New content essay

How would people feel about us putting together another content essay, this time a style guide to help editors write about Indigenous topics? Off the top of my head, this would include avoiding generalizing statements and preventing unjustified use of the past tense. We could also use some guidelines on respecting tribal sovereignty and treating tribes as nations rather than ethnic groups. Vizjim (talk) 16:04, 29 November 2021 (UTC)

Perhaps clarifying protocols for discussing contemporary federally recognized tribes; First Nations; Métis and Inuit communities; and American Indian tribes in Mexico, Central America, and the Caribbean and differentiate them from articles truly about ethnic groups — or linguistic groups or former politically allied groups. Many tribes genuinely are extinct and should be written about in past tense. Many articles that should focus on historic ethnic groups (because they are notable and discussed in literature) have been co-opted by contemporary cultural heritage organizations using Wikipedia to try to validate their Indigenous identity claims (with ungodly long stretches of uncited orignal research). It's such a widespread problem that it would take an unbelievable amount of time to clean up. Yuchitown (talk) 16:59, 29 November 2021 (UTC)Yuchitown

Good point on the "heritage" groups - I said "unjustifiably" in the original comment but should have been clearer as to why. That might be part of the point of such a content essay. The heritage groups are bad-faith actors so unlikely to change, but this essay might help independent editors walking into debates get some idea of the issues. Vizjim (talk) 06:30, 30 November 2021 (UTC)

Call it a style guide, perhaps? Or perhaps a two-part guide, writing about the past and writing about the present. But it’s going to be complex and a challenge (Explaining things like the word “Indian” for example, being a legal term in the USA, so not always to be avoided, etc…) Perhaps start with the easy stuff… “chief” isn’t a leader’s first name…” Montanabw^(talk) 07:36, 30 November 2021 (UTC)

I attempted to add our WP:BLOODMYTH essay to WP:MOSETHNICITY, but was reverted because it's not "official" enough (not a WP-wide guideline, "only" the opinions of a wikiproject. grumble). It is in the See also's at Wikipedia:Race and ethnicity (that page is A. Mess.). I still think we could do a very brief addition in some form to the WP:MOS. Or someplace where style guides are found. At some point in the past we had the idea to model it on an an ethnicity-related guideline or style guide, I think... Searching archived talk should bring the discussion up to see what other ideas we had. We've covered some of what was proposed in the past in the recently-posted essay (such as how RS for Native topics is a bit different than general WP:RS). Also, see the published style guides I recently added to our project main page. We could keep it brief and just cover main points like not past-tensing, terminology, and when we can, rely on links to the articles on stereotypes, the identity essay, etc. - CorbieVreccan ^☊ ☼ 23:53, 13 December 2021 (UTC)

Can we finish that essay? I feel like adding "Bueller... Bueller..." to the talk page. Yuchitown (talk) 01:31, 14 December 2021 (UTC)Yuchitown

I've been looking over the essay and talk. What do you think we need to do for it to be declared finished? (Feel free to take this to that talk page if preferred.) - CorbieVreccan ^☊ ☼ 18:43, 16 December 2021 (UTC)

Changing Aboriginal to Indian or first nations

Hello, I was going to change the word Aboriginal on the page to Indian, first nations, or indigenous as aboriginal refers specifically to the indigenous peoples of Australia. with the specific history associated with it. with the North American indigenous people having our own names. with American Indians, and first nations, fitting much more. I was wondering if anyone has any concerns about me changing it. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Rommel's editor (talk • contribs) 21:34, 17 December 2021 (UTC)

It seems that the word "indigenous" was changed to "Indian" in the article per these diffs:[1] and [2]. Netherzone (talk) 21:55, 17 December 2021 (UTC)

Rommel's editor, as stated by Netherzone, you changed "indigenous" (not "aboriginal") to "Indian", a term which is ambiguous and is falling out of favor. When your changes were reverted, you should have gone to the talk pages of the affected articles to start a discussion rather than continually reverted the edits with which you disagree. As your changes were made in more than one article, the better practice likely is to centralize discussion in one place and put a notice and link to that discussion on the talk pages of each article in which the changes were made. But as several editors disagree with your changes, it is unlikely that you will attain a consensus to change our articles to use the term "Indian" for the native peoples of North America. Kablammo (talk) 03:04, 18 December 2021 (UTC)

Re: "Indian", a term which is ambiguous and is falling out of favor." Indian is not preferred in Canada; it is used in most other countries in the Western Hemisphere. Yuchitown (talk) 05:13, 18 December 2021 (UTC)Yuchitown

Rommel's editor, you have edited and been reverted on Beaver hat, Hudson's Bay Company, French and Indian War, Cypress Hills Massacre, Rupert's Land, Roman Catholic Archdiocese of Quebec, Albert Lacombe, Anthony Henday, Henry Kelsey, and others. You have sometimes changed Canadian spelling to American Spelling. In your campaign to change First Nations, Native Americans, Indigenous Americans, you have also introduced errors and odd phrasing in the the articles. Please stop. Fettlemap (talk) 05:38, 18 December 2021 (UTC)

Move discussion at Pretendian

Talk:Pretendian#Requested move 21 December 2021:

"It has been proposed in this section that Pretendian be renamed and moved to False claims of Native American identity."

Discussion could use more eyes from those who have read the article and sources. - CorbieVreccan ^☊ ☼ 18:40, 24 December 2021 (UTC)

Yaanga

I nominated Yaanga for GA status and it has just received a very favorable report with relatively few suggestions. If anyone can pitch in to help get it to GA in the next few days, it would be appreciated. (I didn't write the article myself and the user who did appears to be inactive.) Vizjim (talk) 20:17, 2 January 2022 (UTC)

I started doing a little bit. It would be nice if there was more information about the village prior to European contact but I'm not sure what's out there.  oncamera  _{(talk page)} 21:15, 2 January 2022 (UTC)

Using tribes as Nationality instead of American/Canadian

Hello all, I am currently in a discussion regarding the use of Cherokee as both a sole nationality and a shared nationality of the three Federally recognized tribes on Dan Hornbuckle's talk page. I request that you all please take a moment to review the discussion and share your opinion or identify any rules we are failing to realize here. Thank you. --WashuOtaku (talk) 18:48, 29 December 2021 (UTC)

There is a recent, related discussion at Special:PermaLink/1062525483#Lee_Maracle_and_MOS:ETHNICITY. Lee Maracle was the main subject of that discussion. This seems to be a perennial topic that would benefit from an RfC, as SusunW suggested on my talk following that discussion. AleatoryPonderings (???) (!!!) 19:15, 29 December 2021 (UTC)

In Canada and the United States, members of Indigenous nations are dual citizens, so the Indigenous nation and "American" or "Canadian" is typically listed. OP was trying to argue for "Cherokee" alone as opposed to "Eastern Band Cherokee, American." Yuchitown (talk) 20:47, 29 December 2021 (UTC)Yuchitown

The dual-citizenship is already implied, so no reason to repeat it (likewise when a Welsh or Scottish is listed, it is implied they are British because those nations are within the nation); the only exception would be to identify when a tribe is split in two nations (i.e. Akwesasne member is: Mohawk, American {or} Canadian). Typically nationality is not even listed as most assume nationality by birthplace. --WashuOtaku (talk) 21:13, 29 December 2021 (UTC)

When someone is a citizen of a Nation, that's what we list. We do not go with someone's opinion or WP:OR that said Nation should be lumped in with, or substituted for, other Nations. We do not change the BLPs of citizens of Germany or France to instead generalize them as "of European nationality"; repeatedly changing a citizen of the Eastern Band of Cherokee Indians to simply "Cherokee" is just as incorrect. - CorbieVreccan ^☊ ☼ 01:47, 31 December 2021 (UTC)

Should we spell out a formal protocol here for tribal enrollment and "nationality" in infoboxes? OP has been steadily deleting "nationality" from ECBI articles. I've never witnessed this be a problematic before this last week. Yuchitown (talk) 22:14, 2 January 2022 (UTC)Yuchitown

I really think we need to have specific protocol. This past week has been absolutely ridiculous. It's made it clear that no matter how much we explain, unless there is something in writting, there will be individuals who are of the mind that their opinion is of most import even when it goes against protocol (and delves into anti-sovereignty territory). Indigenous girl (talk) 22:31, 2 January 2022 (UTC)

Someone put Comanche and US flags under LaDonna Harris's nationality, which looks cool, but my understanding is that flags in infoboxes are frowned upon. I've been putting the briefest description to pinpoint a specific tribe, followed by American or Canadian. The instructions on Infobox People for "nationality" says, "use only when necessary per WP:INFONAT," but tribal membership is typically integral to someone's identity. Since tribal membership is typically accompanied by citizenship to a county such as US or Canada, I've added those, since that's not always clear to the general public. WP:INFONAT says, "Use of nationality and citizenship simultaneously should rarely if ever be necessary (complex cases should be explained in the article prose). Neither field should be used to specify ethnicity." And of course, our argument is that Native American, First Nation, Inuit, and Métis identity is political and hinges upon being part of an Indigenous Nation as opposed to being an ethnic group. Yuchitown (talk) 23:36, 2 January 2022 (UTC)Yuchitown

Was this resolved? I'm sorry I missed the discussion. Not that it matters very much but I agree with @Yuchitown and the majority here. It is very important to list a specific tribe or group within a tribe when possible and we are able to. The argument given in which an American citizen would be or should be referred to as "American" may make sense in most cases however, @Indigenous girl made an excellent observation and argument in reference to members from different groups spread across both Canada and the US. If I were to travel to Asia and while there I was asked where I live I would most likely say Alaska rather than simply the US. My point is that, in some cases, it is even appropriate to say someone is an Alaskan or British Columbian as opposed to American or Canadian. In this case of the usage of "Cherokee" I agree with Corbie that listing the individual as a member of the Eastern Band of Cherokee Indians rather than simply Cherokee is the correct approach, especially being as it is a BLP, the information is readily available and it distinguishes the subject. I do not see a compelling argument for the opposite. --ARoseWolf 14:36, 4 January 2022 (UTC)

There was discussion at Talk:Dan Hornbuckle, but of course this is a more appropriate place for discussion. Another editor delinked American calling it overlinking, which is fine by me (listing American, Canadian, etc. without a link). Since Alaska isn't sovereign (at the moment), seems like only the sovereign nations should be listed. Yuchitown (talk) 16:41, 4 January 2022 (UTC)Yuchitown

It depends on the definition of sovereignty however many Alaskans would take offense to the notion that they are not a citizen of a sovereign state within the United States of America. However, my Alaska comment was only to show that, in some cases, further definition is warranted and necessary. Calling a US citizen an American or a member of a Cherokee tribe a Cherokee may be appropriate under very general circumstances, however, in real world experience a distinction is sometimes warranted which further defines them, especially in cases where the individual is a participant member in a sovereign group that has received Federal recognition such as this case. I read the discussion at the article talk page prior to commenting here. I just didn't know if a resolution was made in another location and decided to offer my opinion in agreement with the majority from that talk page here as it seemed more appropriate to do so. Thank you for lending your valuable suggestions and comments, Yuchitown, and everyone else as well. It is all of you who take interest in this project and subjects related to it that make the difference. --ARoseWolf 17:00, 4 January 2022 (UTC)

Assistance Required Gathering Sources for List of indigenous peoples

Please see the discussion at Talk:List of indigenous peoples regarding the absence hundreds of sources in this article. If possible, contribute to discussion and provide input.

List of indigenous peoples is a massive list of which the majority of entries are are without citation. The article is in need of a team of editors to procedurally review each entry and identify reliable sources--or lack thereof.

There is also an ongoing discussion regarding the terms of inclusion in this list, which you are welcome to get involved in.

01:04, 30 December 2021 (UTC), KaerbaqianRen^💬

See our WP:NDNID essay for guidelines on what constitute RS sources for Indigenous identity. - CorbieVreccan ^☊ ☼ 01:49, 31 December 2021 (UTC)

Thank you for the guidance. I will cross-post this to the aforementioned discussion as well. KaerbaqianRen^💬 18:05, 4 January 2022 (UTC)

Native fishing rights in the Pacific Northwest

We have United States v. Washington, a Featured Article concerning one significant decision (the "Boldt Decision") in 1974 establishing/reaffirming indigenous fishing rights on the Columbia River and tributaries under U.S. law. It's my understanding that Sohappy v. Smith and the accompanying "Belloni Decision" from just a few years before is of similar significance, but that Wikipedia article is very short and incomplete by comparison.

I've started a discussion to determine whether the latter should be merged into the former (which already discusses it in some detail), or whether it's better to build out a separate article. I have no strong preference one way or the other, but I think the existing Sohappy article is insufficient to give a reader a decent overview of the topic. Please weigh in at Talk:Sohappy v. Smith if you have a view on how to improve it, or if you think it's better to merge. -Pete Forsyth (talk) 03:45, 5 January 2022 (UTC)

Shouldn't there be an article for the United South and Eastern Tribes (USET)?

We mention it quite a few times, it seems notable. Doug Weller talk 09:12, 15 January 2022 (UTC)

Also see Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Skepticism#Ceremonial stone landscape. Doug Weller talk 09:15, 15 January 2022 (UTC)

Copy edit request?

Hello all, I started a biography of Rosanne Casimir today, who is Kúkpi7 (Chief) of the Tk’emlúps te Secwépemc. I don't usually work on first nations people, so i wondered if a member of the project would mind just giving it a read and to let me know if I have made any mistakes? Thanks in advance, Lajmmoore (talk) 17:16, 29 January 2022 (UTC)

First Nations

A user has made First Nations into a disambig page, initiating sweeping changes to many pages. I'm seeing WP:OR and misconceptions. Some of their changes could use more experienced eyes. I'm not convinced sourcing backs up a lot of what is being pushed through here. - CorbieVreccan ^☊ ☼ 19:53, 1 February 2022 (UTC)

How ironic I was coming here for assistance for the same thing.....but in the complete opposite direction. Also think we need a few more editors with knowledge of this topic....best provide sources over guess work seen here. Find it very odd people just guess as to what is used over looking.Moxy- 23:14, 2 February 2022 (UTC)

As a First Nations member from Canada living in the states, when I talk to an Indigenous person from the states and mention I'm First Nations, they immediately know I'm from Canada. There's simply no question, I don't need to even mention my community. In the years I have been here I don't recall ever having met a person who is Indigenous from the US identify as FN. Indigenous, yes. Native, yes. Native American, yes. Heck, even Indian. But never First Nations. Not one time. It's certainly not in common usage in the at large community. Indigenous girl (talk) 00:37, 3 February 2022 (UTC)

I don't come across it often in the States (though I have certainly seen it used, mostly in academic contexts), but it is true that the phrase is used widely in Australia and New Zealand. The disambig page is likely therefore justifiable. It might be justifiable to make the Canadian page the primary and have a separate disambig page, following WP:PRIMARYREDIRECT (but then again would that decision reflect a North American bias in Wikipedia?) Vizjim (talk) 09:02, 3 February 2022 (UTC)

Squandro (deletion debate)

I've put the article Squandro up for deletion, and would welcome input from the knowledgeable editors of this page. On the one hand, I suspect this is a settler story without much basis in fact. On the other hand, I don't want to be responsible for deleting an article about a historical 17th century sachem if he was real.Vizjim (talk) 09:06, 3 February 2022 (UTC)

NAGPRA and Professor Elizabeth Weiss

This might be worth mentioning in the NAGPRA article. I don't think much attention is being paid to the article itself.Responding to Claims of Archaeological Racism SAA statement. Review of their book here. Doug Weller talk 12:25, 3 February 2022 (UTC)

Style Guides

I've added the AP Style guidelines to the project page. They clearly indicate that "Indigenous" should be capitalized, along with a few other particulars that I included in a pull quote. I've been doing some wikignoming/copyediting to address this on the 'pedia, but it needs more attention, in a bunch more articles (easily findable via search). If there are protected pages that need to be moved, I can do that. But anyone can go through and address the capitalization issue, using the sources we have now.

Here they are as formatted cites:

• <ref name=APstyle>{{cite web |author=Associated Press|authorlink=Associated Press|url=https://apastyle.apa.org/style-grammar-guidelines/bias-free-language/racial-ethnic-minorities |title=APA Style - Racial and Ethnic Identity |work=Section 5.7 of the APA Publication Manual, Seventh Edition|date=2019-11-01|access-date=2022-02-03 |quote=Racial and ethnic groups are designated by proper nouns and are capitalized. ... capitalize terms such as “Native American,” “Hispanic,” and so on. Capitalize “Indigenous” and “Aboriginal” whenever they are used. Capitalize “Indigenous People” or “Aboriginal People” when referring to a specific group (e.g., the Indigenous Peoples of Canada), but use lowercase for “people” when describing persons who are Indigenous or Aboriginal (e.g., “the authors were all Indigenous people but belonged to different nations”}}</ref>

• <ref name=IndigTermGuide>{{cite web |url=https://www.naja.com/reporter-s-indigenous-terminology-guide/ |title=Reporter's Indigenous Terminology Guide |website=The Native American Journalists Association|access-date=2022-02-02 |archive-url= https://web.archive.org/web/20181116050310/https://www.naja.com/reporter-s-indigenous-terminology-guide/ |archive-date=2018-11-16}}</ref>

• <ref name=NAJA-styleguide>{{cite web |url=https://www.naja.com/resources/naja-ap-style-guide/ |title=NAJA AP Style Guide |website= The Native American Journalists Association |access-date=2022-02-02 |archive-url=http://web.archive.org/web/20181218222154/https://www.naja.com/resources/naja-ap-style-guide/ |archive-date=2018-12-18}}</ref>

As for writing up our own bit to put in the MOS, I've been for this all along. I've only hesitated as I'm still a bit unclear on where we put it. But as we now have these sources, I think we can just use these citations to write something concise and go ahead with it. At some point here on talk (archived now) I think we figured out where and how to add it to the MOS; I just can't recall at the moment. I think we looked to one of the other ethnic projects for suggestions. - CorbieVreccan ^☊ ☼ 20:13, 3 February 2022 (UTC)

I notice the AP guide says to capitalize "People" when referring to a specific group. The current MOS does not directly address this (that I have found), but implies from an example used ("Swahili people") that we should not capitalize "people". We have a number of article titles that included "people" for disambiguation. Is it worth pursuing a possible change to capitalize "People" at this time? - Donald Albury 22:52, 3 February 2022 (UTC)

Plz no. I know they are increasingly doing that in Canada, but it drives me insane. People is not part of a proper noun and should not be capitalized. Yuchitown (talk) 23:19, 3 February 2022 (UTC)Yuchitown

Please see WP:FTN#Comet fringe being added to Hopewell tradition, sadly from WAPO

It might be a good idea to look at the articles where we use him as a source. I've pointed to one where he's been rebutted. Doug Weller talk 14:06, 6 February 2022 (UTC)

Renaming 2020 Canadian pipeline and railway protests

Hi all, there's a discussion ongoing at Talk:2020 Canadian pipeline and railway protests#Two articles or one? about the need to broaden the scope of that article, and the particular need to rename it. It would be great to get some broader participation in the discussion. Thanks! James Hyett (talk) 20:18, 10 February 2022 (UTC)

Home From School: The Children of Carlisle

I recently created an article for the film Home From School: The Children of Carlisle. Any help would be appreciated. Thriley (talk) 22:44, 16 February 2022 (UTC)

More Style Guide Stuff - Naming Conventions (Nation)

I can't seem to find the stuff we have written up about this. I know we have an ongoing consensus about it, but we need to put it at WP:NCP, because general editors don't usually know to ask here. - CorbieVreccan ^☊ ☼ 21:28, 28 February 2022 (UTC)

I left a note on Talk:Rutherford Falls‎. I don't know if listing guides for listing tribal affiliations has been spelled out before (but I don't know every corner of Wikipedia). Yuchitown (talk) 21:52, 28 February 2022 (UTC)Yuchitown

Thanks again for that.

I've added a note about it to our WP:NDNID essay, along with an embedded shortcut: NDN-NATION. I'm going to once again attempt to add this to the MOS, as well. - CorbieVreccan ^☊ ☼ 21:50, 7 March 2022 (UTC)

Just a heads-up, I ran into that shortcut and NDNID-RS while patrolling cross-namespace redirects. Since policy/guideline/essay shortcuts are always in projectspace (although on rare occasions major ones like WP:ANI are duplicated without the WP: in mainspace), and since there was no backward compatibility broken by moving these two brand-new redirects, I've moved them to WP:NDN-NATION and WP:NDNID-RS respectively, and have updated the links. Hope that's not a bother; if it is, I'm happy to self-revert and bring them to RfD instead. -- Tamzin^{[cetacean needed]} (she/they) 05:05, 10 March 2022 (UTC)

@Tamzin: I've always put them in projectspace before, but for some reason, this time I was patterning them on other essay links that didn't have the prefix and mistakenly assumed the prefix wasn't needed. Sorry about that. One problem, however. They're not going to the subsections now, just to the top of the essay. I'm not sure why. Can you see why? Thanks! - CorbieVreccan ^☊ ☼ 17:43, 10 March 2022 (UTC)

ETA: Example: MOS:ETHNICITY. Is that the only way to make it go directly to the subsection in a shortcut? - CorbieVreccan ^☊ ☼ 17:50, 10 March 2022 (UTC)

@CorbieVreccan:  Fixed. Sorry about that. I hadn't noticed that you'd done the redirects based on the shortcut anchors rather than the section names, so didn't think to update them when I changed the shortcut templates. -- Tamzin^{[cetacean needed]} (she/they) 17:55, 10 March 2022 (UTC)

That should do it! Thanks! - CorbieVreccan ^☊ ☼ 18:08, 10 March 2022 (UTC)

I just found this page. Didn't even know it existed: Wikipedia:Naming conventions (ethnicities and tribes). We definitely need to update/improve it. - CorbieVreccan ^☊ ☼ 18:16, 10 March 2022 (UTC)

Amen, that needs an overhaul and links to WP:NDNID. Love how "tribes" is in the title, but they declared the term tribe is offensive. Yuchitown (talk) 19:36, 10 March 2022 (UTC)Yuchitown

I know! Where to start with that page?! I opened it up with a mind to massively overhaul, and possibly rename/move, then decided to let everyone see it and take it all in first. I would also be quite fine with you taking a pass at it first. I mean, I'm glad a page or placeholder exists as part of the naming conventions structure, erm, but it really says something that it has so many problems and that it was so hard to find. Overhaul time. - CorbieVreccan ^☊ ☼ 20:20, 10 March 2022 (UTC)

Haaland v. Brackeen

I've expanded this article to reflect the 5th Circuit panel and en banc opinions, and submitted a GAN on it. If anyone could take a look, I would be appreciative. GregJackP Boomer! 08:20, 13 March 2022 (UTC)

Abenaki

I pulled a lot of very dubious material that was original research, uncited, or based on self-published material from the Abenaki article, but it could still use a lot of help. There's very little about Abenaki today in Quebec. Any assistance welcome! Yuchitown (talk) 16:11, 20 March 2022 (UTC)Yuchitown

White Sands fossil footprints

I just created a brief draft for the recently discovered White Sands fossil footprints. Any help would be appreciated. Thriley (talk) 19:32, 8 April 2022 (UTC)

Discussion about naming conventions for tribal nations

Hi all, I recently noticed that the Wikipedia article naming conventions don't do a very good job of accounting for the unique political circumstances of tribal nations within the borders of the US. I've made my case for this over on this this talk page. If you're interested, or would like to participate in the discussion about whether and how to change these conventions, please drop by and leave a comment. Thanks! Aquaticonions (talk) 17:43, 10 April 2022 (UTC)

Re "naming conventions" and "accounting for the unique political circumstances of tribal nations," I want to call your attention to the Kizh Nation (pronounced keech) or, as the Spanish referred to them, the Gabrielenos or Kichirinos "The People of the Willowhouse" whose culture predates contact with the Spanish in the mid 1530s. In the early 1990s non-natives led by people in academia established the Tongva-Gabrieleno and the Tongva/Gabrieleno organizations and began to promote the term "Tongva" while demoting the Kizh (Wikipedia, etc.), as the ivory tower of academia tends to do. There never was a tribe of Tongva before 1992. It's not the first time Native Americans have been taken advatage of; however, Kizh tribal spokesperson Ernest Perez Teutimez Salas soon cut off contact with individuals belonging to the T-G and T/G after its leaders got what they wanted (“Gabrieleño/Tongva Springs Foundation”), but the damage had been done. Why just the other day, Larry Sanger, founder of Wikipedia, warned that the website can no longer be trusted — insisting it is now just “propaganda” for academia and the left-leaning “establishment” (nypost.com). Harryawhite (talk) 00:05, 5 April 2022 (UTC) Harryawhite (talk) 20:55, 18 April 2022 (UTC)

I'll just mention that after Sanger left Wikipedia, he started Citizendium, where only academics could be 'editors' in most fields. ('Authors' could contribute, but only 'editors', who had to be topic experts with credentials, could approve articles. At one point the people running the site said that it wasn't enough to have a terminal degree in a field. You had to have a position connected to that field in an academic institution.) I guess he's changed his mind about academics since then. - Donald Albury 23:05, 18 April 2022 (UTC)

Obviously Harryawhite (talk) 15:50, 19 April 2022 (UTC)

Johnny Depp again

Coatrack issues and OR. See recent edits and Talk:Johnny_Depp#Depps Native Heritage {sic} - CorbieVreccan ^☊ ☼ 19:28, 23 April 2022 (UTC)

Further input needed: see Talk:Trail_of_Tears#Revisiting_genocide_in_Article

Please provide your input; informal RfA. Thanks, GenQuest ^"scribble" 12:49, 26 April 2022 (UTC)

WP:VPP#Lenient Policies for Native American Pages and "millions of tribes

What particularly interests me here is the claim " millions of tribes have been wiped from our textbooks are rarely written about." Seems unlikely Doug Weller talk 11:15, 27 April 2022 (UTC)

User script to detect unreliable sources

Main page: User:Headbomb/unreliable

I have (with the help of others) made a small user script to detect and highlight various links to unreliable sources and predatory journals. Some of you may already be familiar with it, given it is currently the 39th most imported script on Wikipedia. The idea is that it takes something like

• John Smith "Article of things" Deprecated.com. Accessed 2020-02-14. (John Smith "[https://www.deprecated.com/article Article of things]" ''Deprecated.com''. Accessed 2020-02-14.)

and turns it into something like

• John Smith "Article of things" Deprecated.com. Accessed 2020-02-14.

It will work on a variety of links, including those from {{cite web}}, {{cite journal}} and {{doi}}.

The script is mostly based on WP:RSPSOURCES, WP:NPPSG and WP:CITEWATCH and a good dose of common sense. I'm always expanding coverage and tweaking the script's logic, so general feedback and suggestions to expand coverage to other unreliable sources are always welcomed.

Do note that this is not a script to be mindlessly used, and several caveats apply. Details and instructions are available at User:Headbomb/unreliable. Questions, comments and requests can be made at User talk:Headbomb/unreliable.

- Headbomb {t · c · p · b}

This is a one time notice and can't be unsubscribed from. Delivered by: MediaWiki message delivery (talk) 16:01, 29 April 2022 (UTC)

Marcia Herndon

This draft was just accepted into mainspace. No doubt Marcia is notable for inclusion however, I wanted to focus on the Cherokee heritage portion of the article. When the draft was brought to us at Women in Red it read that she called herself "half-breed" which we all know as a derogatory term but also stated she was an elder of the EBCI. We found no official record of her being an elder or even claiming membership in the EBCI. It has been left in the article because it is directly correlated to the source but I think we are all struggling with it being in the article while not knowing if she was enrolled with the EBCI which would have been a basic requirement for being an elder. I did add our project template to the article but only because of her connection with the ethnomusicology of Native American music and not any purported heritage or connection with the EBCI. ARoseWolf 18:41, 20 May 2022 (UTC)--edited 18:42, 20 May 2022 (UTC)

I'm going over the sourcing but it looks to me like most of her claims need to be either called simply claims or removed for lack of reliable sourcing. Self-claims are insufficient for WP:NDNID. - CorbieVreccan ^☊ ☼ 22:01, 22 May 2022 (UTC)

OK, I made some improvements. See article history and the talk page. The article is up for a GA review, so many people who have no idea of how to check and cite Native identity will be going over it. Folks, please add this to your watchlists and consider participating. - CorbieVreccan ^☊ ☼ 22:38, 22 May 2022 (UTC)

Um, I'm not sure how to say this kindly, her claims are really out there. She was not EBCI and should not have made those claims, those claims being false they should not be in the article. Also the article reads a bit woo. While I understand the woo may come from sources, does the article really need to read that way? It feels very stereotypical, 'white view' to me. Indigenous girl (talk) 23:29, 22 May 2022 (UTC)

Has anyone actually looked through her collection at University of Maryland? There is a lot in there that would lead me to believe that everything she claimed knowledge in including medicines and the language was from books. And some of the books are questionable and certainly not something I would have in my collection as a reputable indigenous scholar. Indigenous girl (talk) 23:51, 22 May 2022 (UTC)

Please, feel free to do cleanup on the article. I only looked at the major sources in the article, and don't think I've heard of her before RoseWolf posted here. Looking at what is coming up now... I'm concerned she was perpetuating a hoax. - CorbieVreccan ^☊ ☼ 00:03, 23 May 2022 (UTC)

I'm noting that one of the main sources, that JStor bio written by a colleague, is full of shocking inaccuracies, such as calling her an elder. It's not a reliable source. I think the author is a friend who was duped by this person. She seems very unclear on Native issues, or she wouldn't have written some of the very odd things she did. I think things only sourced to that bio have to be cut, as she clearly believed her friend's self-claims (tall tales). - CorbieVreccan ^☊ ☼ 00:49, 23 May 2022 (UTC)

Thank you for asking, User:ARoseWolf! In "George E. Herndon," The Asheville-Citizen Times, 20 December 1972, page 15, Marcia's father is identified as George Everett Herndon (1918–1972), born in North, South Carolina, and her mother is identified as Alma Loraine Simmons Herndon (1919–1990). Neither obituary mentions anything about being EBCI. I know, I know; it's hard to prove a negative and original research is not permitted on Wiki, but all four of Marcia's grandparents were white people born in South Carolina. Yuchitown (talk) 02:38, 23 May 2022 (UTC)Yuchitown

You all did an amazing job going through the sources and weeding out inaccuracies. Thank you CorbieVreccan, Indigenous girl, Yuchitown and anyone else that worked on the article as the result of my posting here. You did exactly as I had hoped and I appreciate each of you. I will say that no one writing the article meant any disrespect or insult in including anything in the article, least of which Susun who is an amazingly thoughtful person and a prolific writer, especially on women related topics. Sometimes you have to write what the sources say and then gather other perspectives and insights, through discussion and collaboration, to parse away things that don't belong. It can only serve to improve the encyclopedia when we do that, regardless of the outcomes. I appreciate our ability to assume good faith with each other while empathizing and understanding the unique perspectives we each have. This is truly an incredible wikiproject. Thanks again. --ARoseWolf 14:04, 23 May 2022 (UTC)

Women in Red

Hello friends, just a note to say that next month WikiProject Women in Red has a focus on women from Greenland (& the Faroes), which may have some crossovers with your work here. We always welcome collaboration, details are on the event page. Many thanks Lajmmoore (talk) 10:17, 26 May 2022 (UTC)

Mixed-blood

Full of unsourced text. Once it's cleaned up, there won't be much there. Seems like whatever is usable would be best merged into another article, with a redirect or disambig at that name. Thoughts on where to put it? - CorbieVreccan ^☊ ☼ 19:21, 28 May 2022 (UTC)

The only argument I can think of for trying to salvage this article (which could be quote short) is that it would be a place to discuss people of mixed Native and non-Native ancestry, instead of them adding irrelevant info to the Métis articles. Yuchitown (talk) 19:26, 28 May 2022 (UTC)Yuchitown

Dahti Tsetso

Just wanted to let this group know this article is being considered for deletion: Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Dahti Tsetso. Yuchitown (talk) 15:37, 31 May 2022 (UTC)Yuchitown

Wikipedia:Australian Wikipedians' notice board has an RFC

Wikipedia:Australian Wikipedians' notice board, which is within the scope of this WikiProject, has an RFC for possible consensus. A discussion is taking place. If you would like to participate in the discussion, you are invited to add your comments on the [page]. Thank you. Poketama (talk) 16:35, 31 May 2022 (UTC)

Posting this here as I thought this WikiProject may have some useful input on whether Indigenous placenames should be included in the article lead and what other regions have considered. Thank you. Poketama (talk) 16:35, 31 May 2022 (UTC)

Template:R from indigenous name

I went looking for such a template for a redirect and couldn't find one. Do you think it would be useful? RadioKAOS / Talk to me, Billy / Transmissions 13:08, 2 June 2022 (UTC)

Not sure what practical purpose this would serve, but please capitalize Indigenous if you move forward on this. Yuchitown (talk) 17:20, 2 June 2022 (UTC)Yuchitown

Indian Law Resource Center

I recently created a draft for the Indian Law Resource Center. Any help finding sourcing would be appreciated. Thank you, Thriley (talk) 21:58, 2 June 2022 (UTC)

Cause IQ is a treasure trove of information for any nonprofit organization. Quite a few books with online previews mention the organization. Yuchitown (talk) 22:21, 2 June 2022 (UTC)Yuchitown

Thank you! Thriley (talk) 23:26, 2 June 2022 (UTC)

Inuit or the Inuit

Looking for opinions and comments at Talk:Inuit#Inuit or the Inuit. CambridgeBayWeather, Uqaqtuq (talk), Huliva 06:28, 9 June 2022 (UTC)

When is a Native American mound a pyramid?

Not many listed at Category:Pyramids in the United States. We have Platform mound, List of burial mounds in the United States which doesn't mention the word pyramid at all and has "burial mounds" as a redirect for Tumulus. Mound builders does talk about pyramids but not in the lead. This late 19th century source[3] calls them pyramids multiple times. My concern is whether our articles give Native Americans the credit they should have. Doug Weller talk 15:16, 16 May 2022 (UTC)

This article advocating calling some mounds pyramids (Pluckhahn, Thomas J.; Thompson, Victor D.; Rink, W. Jack (April 2016). "Evidence for Stepped Pyramids of Shell in the Woodland Period of Eastern North America". American Antiquity. 81 (2): 345–363. doi:10.7183/0002-7316.81.2.345. JSTOR 24712753. S2CID 163464007 – via Academia.edu.) came to my attention a few months ago. - Donald Albury 11:36, 9 June 2022 (UTC)

Thanks. And it's free to download. Doug Weller talk 13:45, 9 June 2022 (UTC)

The Taino people - ongoing or gone?

The page for Taino people has seen a significant amount of conflict that has been unresolved, and doesn't appear to have had any formal discussions, for over a decade. This is primarily around if Wikipedia should recognise the several groups who claim to be Taino in modern times. The conventional wisdom seems to be that the Taino have not existed as a people for hundreds of years; while the opposing view is that the Taino have either continued quietly or have reinvigorated a sleeping culture. Both have research and sources to back them up.

Even if it is readily demonstratable that the Taino are not a continuous culture and are instead represented by a sort of 'Neo-Taino' - this also warrants addressing in the article. As it stands, there are many people who claim to be Taino who attempt to edit Wikipedia or express themselves on the Talk page and are shut down. This isn't a very good look; and the controversy has led to an article that is confusing to a huge fault. For example: in the lead it says that the Taino 'were' a people, while in the article body it talks about many Taino communities; including one that received Federal Recognition in 2021 in the US Virgin Islands.

While the case of the expressed extinguishment of the Taino people would have been many generations before, from an Australian lens this doesn't seem enough to disqualify their legitimacy. Neither does, as one user said on the Talk:Taíno page, a requirement that they constantly speak Taino language, wear Taino clothes, or cook Taino food. This is not something that most people on reservations in the US do either. I also am unsure of the claim that because they are not a registered tribe by the US Federal Government, they are not a tribe. This sets off a lot of red flags as I'm sure anyone with a cursory knowledge of colonialism would understand.

Following input from users here, I think an RfC on this issue may be necessary to resolve this long-standing conflict.

Disclaimer: My understanding of North American indigenous peoples is limited. I've done some research into the Taino to try to get my head around it but have not formed an opinion on the issue. I am focused on Australia, where there are not the concepts of 'blood-quantum', formal tribal rolls, or recognition of 'sovereign' tribes. So the situation is significantly different, and the general understanding in Australia is that an Australian Aboriginal person is any person with Aboriginal heritage no matter how distant. There's also not a significant number of people here who claim Aboriginal ancestry without it being truthful. All these issues appear to be near-opposite in the USA. Specifically in regards to the Taino, in Australia, significant movements to reinvigorate near-extinguished cultures have been hugely successful and have been seen as legitimate because they are run by people of descent from those groups, and with the understanding that their culture was extinguished by force during colonisation.

PS I have also posted this comment on Talk:Taíno. Poketama (talk) 04:32, 5 July 2022 (UTC)

@Poketama: Please see my response at Talk:Taíno#The Taino debate in 2022. Donald Albury 12:56, 5 July 2022 (UTC)

Page Move Discussion Iroquois National Lacrosse Teams to Haudenosaunee National Lacrosse Teams

I have opened discussions on moving the following pages:

Iroquois men's national lacrosse team

Iroquois women's national lacrosse team

Iroquois men's national under-19 lacrosse team

Iroquois women's national under-19 lacrosse team

During the recent 2022 World Lacrosse Women's World Championship, press referred to the women's team as the "Haudenoseaunee" https://www.si.com/tv/lacrosse/2022/07/07/usa-vs-australia-womens-lacrosse-world-championship-semifinal-stream-free dashiellx (talk) 18:49, 13 July 2022 (UTC)

Musicians

Seems like almost half the entries on List of Native American musicians were Canadian, so I created the List of Indigenous musicians in Canada. I'm not particularly familiar with Canadian Indigenous musicians (except Buffy St. Marie), so any help populating this list would be welcome! Yuchitown (talk) 15:40, 14 July 2022 (UTC)Yuchitown

Accawmacke Indians of Virginia

Someone just added Accawmacke/Gingaskin Indians of Virginia's Eastern Shore to the List of unrecognized tribes here. I reverted the edit because it linked to this web page, which has a prominent section very near the top of the page asking for donations. Does anybody know anything about this group? I have no opinion on the legitiamcy of the group, but I do think the prominent request for donations falls, at least partly, under the provision "Links mainly intended to promote a website, including online petitions and crowdfunding pages. See Wikipedia:Spam § External link spamming" in WP:ELNO. Donald Albury 18:37, 29 July 2022 (UTC)

Hi, I just left a message on your talk page, but that group has appeared in a few newspaper articles, so I linked an article as opposed to their self-published, promotional website. In May, I overhauled the Accomac people article (Gingaskin redirects there) to reflect historical realities. Part of an ongoing effort to distinguish historical Native American tribes from contemporary nonprofits and other cultural heritage organizations. Trying to move these topics back to verifiable facts. Yuchitown (talk) 18:47, 29 July 2022 (UTC)Yuchitown

RFC on whether the Taino people exist today

I'd appreciate your input on this topic to resolve some long disputed issues about modern Taino movements. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Taíno#Request_for_Comment_on_Modern_Taino_Identity Poketama (talk) 22:45, 3 August 2022 (UTC)

The Andrew Jackson page could use some input from this community

The page for Andrew Jackson is technically a featured article, but it could really benefit from more indigenous perspectives. The current introduction describes Jackson as a hero of “democracy” and the “common man,” and an editor there is adamant that these aspects of white politics are more notable than his systematic ethnic cleansing. Seems like something people here would be interested in addressing? FinnV3 (talk) 19:37, 3 August 2022 (UTC)

Just a note of warning for anyone that's thinking about stepping into this: I have gone round and round with one of these editors on multiple pages at this point related to U.S. history. They are not interested in Native perspectives in U.S. history unless it matches with their own perspective on U.S. history. For example, they have insisted on including articles like this one, or peer-reviewed work from the 1950's, on multiple U.S. history pages, but they've balked at including work from academics like Dina Gilio-Whitaker and Kyle Powys Whyte on the same pages because said academics are not "historians" or "scientists" (depending on the context in which their words are added to a page).

Obviously this kind of stuff is an issue across wikipedia, but one of the editors involved here is particularly rough to deal with in this regard.--Hobomok (talk) 22:24, 3 August 2022 (UTC)

Yes, I've been having issues with one editor in particular. I get the sense that his strategy is to be persistently unpleasant so that people will give up and he'll have a one-man consensus for his pro-ethnic-cleansing text. I'm going to try to be similarly persistent, but I could use all the help I can get. FinnV3 (talk) 12:28, 4 August 2022 (UTC)

FinnV3, please read Wikipedia:Canvassing. Contacting other editors in a manner intended to sway the outcome of the discussion is prohibited. Specifically, see the WP:APPNOTE section of that article which reads: Notifications must be polite, neutrally worded... Your writings here been neither respectful of editors disagreeing with you nor neutrally worded. I'm not going to formally complain now, both because you have not been warned before and because Hobomok's contributions to the discussion have been productive, but I warn you not to do this again. If you do, you can expect to be reported. Display name 99 (talk) 19:51, 4 August 2022 (UTC)

How should we assess articles that have attained featured article status but require substantial cleanup?

The Andrew Jackson article requires substantial cleanup (especially related to Indigenous issues), as described in ongoing discussion on its talk page. Following the article assessment guide, I ranked this article a "C," but another editor changed the ranking to "FA." I realized that the article assessment guide gives conflicting advice. How should we assess articles that have attained featured article status but still require substantial cleanup? FinnV3 (talk) 04:15, 7 August 2022 (UTC)

There is the Wikipedia:Featured article review where you can bring that up for attention, no?  oncamera  _{(talk page)} 05:45, 7 August 2022 (UTC)

Yes, thanks. At the rate the discussion is going, I'll probably bring it up in WP:FAR once the two-week deadline is up. For now, should the review remain "FA"? I was thinking that the "C" rating could help draw attention from other people interested in Indigenous history (which is especially lacking on Jackson's page), but I can leave it as "FA" if that's official procedure. FinnV3 (talk) 11:58, 7 August 2022 (UTC)

I would wait the two weeks and have the article brought up at FAR so all the projects will be notified and attention will be brought to the article. I think the more pressing issue is the WP:OWNBEHAVIOR of a certain editor. Note their behavior on the Wikipedia:Neutral point of view/Noticeboard.  oncamera  _{(talk page)} 12:54, 7 August 2022 (UTC)

Thanks for the suggestion, added. FinnV3 (talk) 15:25, 7 August 2022 (UTC)

Requested move - American Indian elder

Discussion for American Indian elder to be renamed and moved to North American Indigenous elder. The article needs an overhaul, as well. - CorbieVreccan ^☊ ☼ 19:07, 30 July 2022 (UTC)

Could use more input from Wikipedians familiar with Indigenous articles and naming conventions. Some of the suggestions that are being proposed are... Yeah, could use more input. Thanks. - CorbieVreccan ^☊ ☼ 19:53, 7 August 2022 (UTC)

I've asked at Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Capital_letters#Cap_Indigenous? whether I've missed a discussion on capitaization of Indigenous. Anybody here know? I see the linked external guides, but has there been any discussion among WP editors about this? Dicklyon (talk) 05:33, 12 August 2022 (UTC)

Wiki-a-thon

Has this WikiProject ever hosted a wiki-a-thon? I've never hosted one but would be happy to help (not in September or October, but in the future). Also, the wiki-a-thon's seemed focused on biographies, but List of Alaska Native tribal entities has more than a hundred red links that User:ARoseWolf worked on, but that's far too much work for one person. Yuchitown (talk) 21:07, 13 August 2022 (UTC)Yuchitown

Featured Article Review: Andrew Jackson

I have nominated Andrew Jackson for a featured article review here. Please join the discussion on whether this article meets featured article criteria. Articles are typically reviewed for two weeks. If substantial concerns are not addressed during the review period, the article will be moved to the Featured Article Removal Candidates list for a further period, where editors may declare "Keep" or "Delist" the article's featured status. The instructions for the review process are here. FinnV3 (talk) 20:58, 23 August 2022 (UTC)

Seeking advice on a split

Hello. I'm considering effecting a split for the Lumbee article, with that article remaining the area for information on Lumbee people (history and culture, etc.) and having a new article on the Lumbee tribal organization, which has its own constitution, elections, social services, etc. Is this typically done and do you have any advice on how to go about this? -Indy beetle (talk) 02:39, 16 August 2022 (UTC)

The article's issues should be resolved before splitting it into two articles with a lot of issues. The lead should be written about the Lumbee people, like Sioux for example that includes early known history into modern day history, perhaps including information about why they lack federal recognition. The current lead is just about the state recognition of a tribe in North Carolina, which should have its own page like other tribes such as Spirit Lake Tribe. That's where the split should occur. Maybe look at Métis as an example too, since the Lumbee seem to lack a long history of existence as a standalone people, especially the Identity section.  oncamera  _{(talk page)} 19:54, 16 August 2022 (UTC)

User:Indy beetle, yes, you could absolutely create Lumbee Tribe of North Carolina, about the specific state-recognized tribe and its administration. That's common throughout Native articles—broad umbrella articles like Shawnee, then specific ones for particular tribes, like Shawnee Tribe, Eastern Shawnee Tribe of Oklahoma, and Absentee Shawnee Tribe of Indians. If you want, I can help. Yuchitown (talk) 03:25, 24 August 2022 (UTC)Yuchitown

• @Yuchitown: I would gladly take your assistance in this endeavor. The matter is actually possibly more necessary than I originally believed, since governance of the people appears to be disputed, or at least disputed in the recent past. The "Lumbee Tribe of North Carolina" refers to this organization, which is a governing body with elections and services and whatnot which Wikipedia, the state government (I think), regional media, and it would seem most Lumbees in Robeson County and surrounding area consider the preeminent tribal organization. However, other sources point to a leadership dispute between the Lumbee Regional Development Association (organization website here, it is still active and has had a prominent history in the community) and a "Lumbee Tribe of Cheraw Indians" (1999 book source on dispute, annotation of 1999 inconclusive court case over dispute) over who holds the real gatekeeping and governance authority over the Lumbee people. References to the "Lumbee Tribe of Cheraw Indians" (and its "Tribal Council") online are sparing, and it may be the same organization as the "Lumbee Tribe of North Carolina", though the LRDA's website makes it seems like the current "Lumbee Tribe of North Carolina" was actually an outgrowth of their own efforts in 2002, which is after the sources I found above were published. Either way, I'm not certain at this time what the case is, and it's very poor form for Wikipedia to present one institution as having a monopoly on governing legitimacy on a group of people when we can't be sure that that is really the case. -Indy beetle (talk) 04:07, 24 August 2022 (UTC)

@Indy beetle: There is a difference between tribal organizations that are recognized by the federal or a state government, and unrecognized organizations. While I think there is a presumption that government-recognized tribal organizations will meet Wikipedia's notability criteria, in-depth coverage of unrecognized tribal organizations will depend on what is in reliable sources. So then, an article about Lumbees in general, and an article about any Lumbee tribal organization that is recognized by the federal or a state government are defensible. An article about an unrecognized Lumbee organization would require significant coverage in independent reliable sources. Mention of such an unrecognized Lumbee organization in either the general article about the Lumbee, or in an article about a recognized Lumbee tribal oranization, would also depend on coverage by reliable sources, and considerations of whether the existence of such an organization or movement is significant enough to be included in an existing article. Personally, I would not mention such unrecognized entities in the Lumbee article or an article about a goverbment-recognized entity, unless they have formally applied for government-recognition, or there is coverage of the entity in independent, reliable sources (i.e., other than web sites controlled by that entity). - Donald Albury 13:44, 24 August 2022 (UTC)

The side groups might not be notable enough to merit their own article, but if they are written about in newspapers and books, then it's fine to just mention them in the main Lumbee article. It's educational to the public to know that other groups exist but are not the same as the state-recognized Lumbee Tribe of North Carolina. Yuchitown (talk) 16:04, 24 August 2022 (UTC)Yuchitown

Orutsararmiut Native Council

After learning about the recently elected Yup'ik politician Mary Peltola, I started this article: Orutsararmiut Native Council. It would benefit from editors who are knowledgeable on the topic of indigenous peoples. I had never heard of a tribe being named a council. TJMSmith (talk) 23:43, 2 September 2022 (UTC)

Attempts to disappear Native citizenship on WP

I think this is mostly being done by a sockdrawer, but there are at least a few users that have been involved over the years, on a number of Native articles. Lately it's the BLPS for the actors on the new TV shows, and the TV shows themselves, where we have users and WP:LOUTSOCK IPs coming along and removing peoples' nations, tribes, and citizenship entirely, or downgrading them to "of descent" when they are citizens. A look at my recent contribs will show the articles that have been targeted, and the policies cited (both correctly and misrepresented). I'd appreciate more eyes, articles put on watchlists, etc. Thanks. - CorbieVreccan ^☊ ☼ 19:13, 3 September 2022 (UTC)

I'm seeing the flurry of edits by User:Ciro Lyndo. Will look for others. Yuchitown (talk) 20:02, 3 September 2022 (UTC)Yuchitown

Alaska Native villages

List of Alaska Native tribal entities was years out of date, so I updated it to the current Federal Register. Most of the redirects go to towns/communities, not necessarily articles specifically for the federally recognized Alaskan tribe. Native Village of Afognak and the above-mentioned Orutsararmiut Native Council are both promising examples of a Category:Native American tribes in Alaska. What is the best infobox to use for these articles? Template:Infobox organization, Template:Infobox government agency, Template:Infobox tribe (sounds promising but tailored toward ancient Middle Eastern groups), or Template:Infobox ethnic group? I've never made an infobox, but maybe the time has come to create an infobox for US federally recognized tribes. Yuchitown (talk) 17:09, 3 September 2022 (UTC)Yuchitown

Just found the under-utilized Template:Infobox First Nation. Some First Nations articles use Template:Infobox settlement. Wonder if these could be expanded to include Inuit, Australian Aboriginal first nations, US federally recognized tribes, Indigenous peoples of Panama, and other Indigenous nations with formal federal recognition? Yuchitown (talk) 15:03, 4 September 2022 (UTC)Yuchitown

Ignace Tonené

I'm happy to say that I got Ignace Tonené to good article status. CT55555 (talk) 11:18, 10 September 2022 (UTC)

The article looks great, congratulations, CT5! Netherzone (talk) 13:26, 10 September 2022 (UTC)

Lynette Lewis Alston

I want to write a short article on Lynette Lewis Alston, the first Native American elected to the role of president of the Board of Trustees of the Virginia Museum of Fine Arts. She is the Chief of the Nottoway Indian Tribe of Virginia. Is she considered Native American under your guidelines? Specifically can she be called Native American if the Nottoway Tribe in not federally recognized? Thanks. WomenArtistUpdates (talk) 22:56, 9 September 2022 (UTC)

References

That is a gray area, and maybe an editor from that region can contribute their thoughts. The Virginia Council on Indians rejected the Nottoway Indian Tribe of Virginia's bid for state recognition in 2009, then they received state-recognition through legislation in 2010, so the Virginia Council on Indians did not believe this group was a Native American tribe. State recognition doesn't really confer clearly rights or privileges on a national scale (except that members of state-recognized tribes can call themselves Native American or American Indian artists under the Indian Arts and Crafts Act); some state-recognized are clearly documented as being Native American (Chinook Indian Tribe), some are clearly documented as not being Native American (Accohannock Indian Tribe). If you feel this individual is important enough to merit a biography, then you can always just say she is a member and chief of the Nottoway Indian Tribe of Virginia. Does she have Native American ancestry? I have absolutely no idea. Perhaps others here know more. Yuchitown (talk) 14:33, 10 September 2022 (UTC)Yuchitown

Thanks for your prompt response Yuchitown. Since her notability is closely related to her Native American heritage, perhaps the best thing is to add the biographical information to the existing page on Nottoway Indian Tribe of Virginia and create a redirect. Do you think that is an acceptable solution? WomenArtistUpdates (talk) 15:43, 10 September 2022 (UTC)

That's reasonable. And there might be users here from near Virginia who have more insight into the situation who might comment later on. Yuchitown (talk) 15:57, 10 September 2022 (UTC)Yuchitown

Thanks. I'll keep in on my to-do list for a couple of days to await other replies to my query before posting anything. WomenArtistUpdates (talk) 16:24, 10 September 2022 (UTC)

Anyone here with expertise on totem poles?

Anyone here with expertise on totem poles? Or who can refer me to someone who does?

Commons just got a very nice contribution of high-res scans from the Seattle Public Library Special Collections, including some very nice late 19th-century pictures of totem poles. However, I've found enough errors in metadata in areas where I do know my stuff to be very suspicious of the metadata in areas where I don't. The following two high-res images were identified as being from Wrangell, Alaska:

• 
  Bear family totem pole and buildings in Wrangell, Alaska, ca. 1899
• 
  Beaver totem pole in front of home in Wrangell, Alaska, ca. 1899

However, they don't match any other images we have for Wrangell in that era, and we have a lot. I suspect they are from somewhere else near Wrangell, and I also suspect they will turn out to be the best images we have of the respective poles.

Any help is welcome. - Jmabel | Talk 02:17, 7 September 2022 (UTC)

• Given that it's been a couple of days with no response, I'll try the Humanities reference desk. - Jmabel | Talk 00:30, 9 September 2022 (UTC)

You might consider inserting the images into the totem pole or Wrangell, Alaska articles and then post on the social media of organizations like the Sealaska Heritage Institute, Museum of Anthropology at UBC, Anchorage Museum, etc., soliciting information there. It might recruit a much-needed Northwest Coast editor to Wikipedia. Yuchitown (talk) 04:08, 9 September 2022 (UTC)Yuchitown

Jmabel, the Wrangell Museum has several totems that look similar but not exactly like the ones pictured. I've been there many times. You might want to contact them. I will say that the totem in the forefront in the first picture is the exact same as the one pictured in the second photo so, unless they are describing the totem in the distant right in the first photo these two photos are describing the same totem as something different. --ARoseWolf 17:34, 9 September 2022 (UTC)

In fact, the totem pole in the distant right of the first photo is one that they still have on display if I am remembering correctly. Yes, I remember seeing it as you enter the display room on Wrangell's Tlingit history. This is definitely from Wrangell. --ARoseWolf 17:47, 9 September 2022 (UTC)

This also got sorted out at https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Reference_desk/Humanities&oldid=1110514947#Totem_poles. It's the Beaver Pole, it just looked to someone like a bear. - Jmabel | Talk 23:37, 15 September 2022 (UTC)

Reservation Dogs

Needs more eyes. There is some slo-mo edit-warring, disruption and incivility etc from someone (and maybe others, maybe socks) who doesn't seem to understand some basic things about the cultures in question, Oklahoma laws, the US, etc. This may wind up at ANI, etc, but needs more input from those who understand the topics. - CorbieVreccan ^☊ ☼ 18:48, 16 September 2022 (UTC)

Talk:Wounded Knee Battlefield discussion re: name change/move

There is a discussion on the talk page of Wounded Knee Battlefield regarding changing the name of the article and moving it from Wounded Knee Battlefield → Wounded Knee National Historic Landmark. Please consider participating in the discussion. Netherzone (talk) 13:25, 17 September 2022 (UTC)

iskwē , aka Meghan Meisters

Needs cleanup by project members experienced with WP:NDNID issues as pertains to First Nations identity, vs descendants, and/or claimants to such status. Lots of IP and new account edits have necessitated semi-protection, and I'm going to flag it for some of the other issues, as well. - CorbieVreccan ^☊ ☼ 23:07, 1 October 2022 (UTC)

Police brutality against Indigenous Canadians

Hello all! I plan to create a new Wikipedia article focusing on police brutality against Indigenous Canadians, structured similarly to Police brutality against Native Americans. It can be a parent page for Saskatoon freezing deaths among other articles. Let me know your thoughts or any tips/source you all have! Skyef25 (talk) 22:15, 3 October 2022 (UTC)

Teluisi oqote'tut!

This unregistered user repetitively edits articles of Mi'kmaq Grand Chiefs. Is there an easy way to get them to stop? YvesRetailleau (talk) 02:30, 10 October 2022 (UTC)

• • • The edits aren't massive, just childish and irritating. YvesRetailleau (talk) 02:31, 10 October 2022 (UTC)

      No new edits in five days. If the editor starts in again, you can report them at WP:AIV, but the disruption/vandalism has to be fresh to get action there. - Donald Albury 16:30, 10 October 2022 (UTC)

PR request for Abishabis

I have requested a peer review for Abishabis, a Cree religous leader in the 1840s. I am hoping to bring this article to GAN in early 2023, then FAC afterwards. However, this is the first article of an Indigenous person that I am bringing through these processes, so any comments (especially about the correct language to use) would be appreciated. PR is located here. Thanks all! Z1720 (talk) 02:36, 12 October 2022 (UTC)

Sacheen Littlefeather

So, now that she's passed, her family are talking about how, well, they're not Native. And her fans don't like it. The article and talk page are being thrashed about on by users who.... for the most part seem wholly unfamiliar with how to handle these issues. I've said a couple things, there and at Wikipedia:Biographies of living persons/Noticeboard#Sacheen Littlefeather. More eyes from those familiar with these issues would definitely be helpful. Or even if you can just help wrangle those who think acknowledging lack of tribal connection/verification/claim is libel. - CorbieVreccan ^☊ ☼ 00:49, 23 October 2022 (UTC)

Kevin Locke (musician) and other bios confusing descent and citizenship

Has confusing wording in the lede about whether he was a citizen or descendant. Needs a line edit, better sourcing to WP:NDNID-RS standards, and cat check from someone who knows. Thanks. - CorbieVreccan ^☊ ☼ 18:52, 5 November 2022 (UTC)

His mother's article: Patricia Locke, also has the confusing wording around citizenship vs descent. I'm finding this here and there on bios, usually added by editors who may not know the difference. Something to not only fix here, but to keep an eye out for, in general. - CorbieVreccan ^☊ ☼ 21:13, 5 November 2022 (UTC)

Would Anyone Like to Chat About Your Editing Experience for an Article?

Hello Everyone,

I am a writer/scholar in environmental, literary, and Native American/Indigenous studies.

I am currently writing an article for a popular magazine regarding issues and debates I've seen on Wikipedia regarding Indigenous and Native American histories. Mainly, I've noticed that on U.S. history related pages like Andrew Jackson, the Trail of Tears, and Climate Change in the United States, long-term and majority editors at those pages have real issue with representing Native scholarship and Native histories being added (resisting adding Potawatomi philosopher Kyle Powys Whyte's work on climate change pages, insisting on calling Indian Removal policy on Jackson's page "Forced removal" rather than other terms/only focusing on Cherokee removal rather than the entire scope of removal, etc.). The fact that this information is so hard to add, and the fact that sources from Native scholars are generally dismissed on these pages, while outdated writing from scholars who celebrate Jackson, for example, are accepted without a second thought, is something I want to call attention to.

I was pointed to this page by another editor, and I was wondering if anyone here had time to talk about their experience editing Wikipedia on Indigenous/Native American topics (positive/negative/anything in between)? If so, I can be reached via email on my talk page, or if you would rather, feel free to leave me a message and I can email you. It is possible to remain anonymous throughout this process if you would like to speak to me.

If you do not have time or do not want to speak on this subject, no worries--I just wanted to reach out and see if anyone had anything that they might want to share.

Thank you for your time!

EnviroMoose (talk) 21:51, 14 November 2022 (UTC)

Merge or redirect Great Sioux Nation?

The article for Great Sioux Nation contains almost all of the same information contained at Sioux and should be redirected to the main article per WP:Redundant and WP:Content forking. Oceti Sakowin is the name the Sioux people call their traditional political/social structure as is explained on the main Sioux page Etymology section. Do I just replace the content with a redirect or is there another method?  oncamera  _{(talk page)} 05:19, 11 November 2022 (UTC)

Seems fairly straightforward, but the procedure would be to put a merge discussion template up top on both pages to get consensus first. - CorbieVreccan ^☊ ☼ 20:13, 15 November 2022 (UTC)

Capitalizing Indigenous and Citizenship Issues

Some editors have not adopted this, resulting in exchanges like this one. While MOS:RACECAPS notes that "Native American" is capitalized, we should add "Indigenous". As it's a policy page, I think we will have to discuss it on MOS talk. I'm also encountering issues with people removing tribal identification from the lede of some bios, per MOS:ETHNICITY. I think we should consider putting in something about an exception to this, as it's about citizenship, etc, not race. - CorbieVreccan ^☊ ☼ 20:17, 15 November 2022 (UTC)

I think the change is small enough that I could just be bold, but I've brought it up on MOS talk, here: MOS:RACECAPS. Participation would be helpful. - CorbieVreccan ^☊ ☼ 21:03, 15 November 2022 (UTC)

As all of this interconnects, I have also brought up amending MOS:ETHNICITY to clarify that Indigenous identity is based in citizenship, not race. Too often these things are decided by people unfamiliar with the topics. Would really appreciate experienced input at: Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Biography MOS:ETHNICITY and citizenship. Thanks! - CorbieVreccan ^☊ ☼ 20:59, 16 November 2022 (UTC)

Talk:Main_Page#Nanook_of_the_North

Hey, all! POTD has this film coming up. If anyone wants to help make sure it's appropriately contextualized (both in blurb for the main page and in the article the club's taken from) please do. Adam Cuerden ^(talk)_{Has about 8.2% of all FPs. Currently celebrating his 600^th FP!} 20:43, 20 November 2022 (UTC)

Renaming Iroquois page to Haudenosaunee

Presently the entry on Haudenosaunee refers to them as Iroquois. However, this word has its roots as a slur meaning "snakes" and was never used by the Haudenosaunee themselves.

Although there is an entry on the article's talk page inquiring about change, it doesn't seem too hopeful as the prevailing argument against updating the page's title is that Iroquois is still more commonly used by English speakers despite the colonial history entrenched in that term.

Moreover, some are arguing of a exonym vs. endonym situation, despite the word Haudenosaunee being a perfectly valid word to use in English, especially considering the existing page title, Iroquois, is itself a loan word from French.

Seeking the help of someone more influential than myself on this platform to help get this change through. We need to update the title, set up a redirect for the word Iroquois, and also set up a section explaining why the term Iroquois is controversial. OddlyOaktree (talk) 17:29, 18 November 2022 (UTC)

UPDATE: I have added a move request to have this page renamed, so if this is something you support, you can do so here: Talk:Iroquois#Requested move 20 November 2022 OddlyOaktree (talk) 18:22, 20 November 2022 (UTC)

Hopefully, folks from this WikiProject can add their perspectives. Yuchitown (talk) 16:09, 21 November 2022 (UTC)Yuchitown

Reviews requested for recent edits to

Lipan Apache people , State-recognized tribes in the United States and List of unrecognized tribes in the United States. Thanks. Doug Weller talk 19:07, 21 November 2022 (UTC)

I reverted once at List of unrecognized tribes, but the response doesn't fall under the exceptions I allow to my personal 1RR rule. Donald Albury 20:45, 21 November 2022 (UTC)

Clan Mother

What a mess. Needs a total rewrite, or WP:TNT. If no one has the time and energy to fix it, I've proposed deletion. If you've got the spoons and can dive in and do it, just remove the prod. But only if you're going to really do it. Concerns noted in the cleanup templates and prod up top. Oh my. - CorbieVreccan ^☊ ☼ 21:20, 30 November 2022 (UTC)

Would it be possible to be moved to draft for me to work on as I can? It clearly can not stay in main space so I see no need to remove the prod. It is a good nomination for deletion as is. Before it can be moved back I will ask editors here to review and, of course, anyone is welcome to make edits if they want to. I'm not sure I can devote an in depth amount of time immediately but will work on it a little every day. I think a good enough article can be made out of it but I haven't started looking for sources either. The same could probably be said of the other article you mentioned. These articles are in very poor shape. --ARoseWolf 21:38, 30 November 2022 (UTC)

In the spirit of Be Bold, I've userfied it. Let's try this: User:ARoseWolf/Draft:Clan Mother. Let me look at the other and see what we should do there. - CorbieVreccan ^☊ ☼ 22:23, 30 November 2022 (UTC)

Holy Wall of Text, Batman. Thank you for tackling this one, User:ARoseWolf. These kind of articles seem so difficult to write and cite without falling onto romantic fantasies or stereotypes. Yuchitown (talk) 22:47, 30 November 2022 (UTC)Yuchitown

Another article and section to bear in mind: Iroquois#Women in society. And the other one in bad shape, mentioned in the now-removed Prod: North American Indigenous elder. Have at it, team. - CorbieVreccan ^☊ ☼ 22:38, 30 November 2022 (UTC)

Thank you, CorbieVreccan. Yuchitown, It's a challenge but I think we can actually trim quite a bit from the article and even add some information from other cultures. First thing to do is get rid of the excess. --ARoseWolf 12:45, 1 December 2022 (UTC)

Tom B.K. Goldtooth needs work

He seems like a great guy but his article badly needs sourcing. It's hard to read also because there is so much in each section and I'm guessing a lot can be removed. Doug Weller talk 13:51, 3 December 2022 (UTC)

RFC on Métis

I notice that an editor has put out a Request for Comment at Talk:Métis#RFC_Ontario. Dan Carkner (talk) 17:59, 10 December 2022 (UTC)

Categorization

I was looking for a bit of input on categorization. I'm currently working on an article about an Aymara Bolivian politician. Would that individual be categorized under Category:Bolivian politicians of indigenous peoples descent or Category:Aymara politicians? Is the latter a narrower category or would both be more appropriate? Krisgabwoosh (talk) 08:47, 19 December 2022 (UTC)

Seems like you would you use both, Aymara people also live in Peru. Yuchitown (talk) 15:13, 19 December 2022 (UTC)Yuchitown

Yeah, though so, just wanted to be sure. Krisgabwoosh (talk) 19:52, 19 December 2022 (UTC)

Wiigwaasabak

Dreadfully unsourced and I suspect pretty inaccurate. Doug Weller talk 20:01, 12 January 2023 (UTC)

Use of the word genocide to describe inter-tribal conflict

Hi friends, this is my first time on this WikiProject. I’m working on the Chief Seattle page and an editor is citing a source that describes a war between the Suquamish and the Chimakum as genocide because many Chimakum were killed and the ones left were forced to integrate into other tribes. Although the Chimakum were later signatories at the Point No Point Treaty.

Personally I think this is quite a stretch of the word genocide. I think the role of it’s inclusion is less to spread awareness about genocide and more to further a colonizer narrative that demonizes indigenous peoples as “savages.”

As a new Wikipedian, I’m wondering if you all have any advice about how to go about this situation. t̕igʷicid AdJHu • 胡安祝 12:53, 25 January 2023 (UTC)

I think that this qualifies as an exceptional claim with a contentious label, a non-expert source, and a dead link, so I went ahead and removed it.      — Freoh 13:27, 25 January 2023 (UTC)

I removed the contentious category since the content was removed. Without the content the category does not apply. --ARoseWolf 14:24, 25 January 2023 (UTC)

Request for comment on a relevant article to this WikiProject

Please see Talk:Kaktovik_numerals#Displaying_the_characters_in_the_article for issues related to display of characters and accessibility. ―Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯ 11:03, 26 January 2023 (UTC)

Wikipedia:WikiProject Indigenous peoples of North America/Article alerts

Have all of you added this WikiProject's article alerts to your watchlist? I find them useful to be alerted to PRODs and deletion discussions. Yuchitown (talk) 14:54, 29 January 2023 (UTC)Yuchitown