Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Heraldry and vexillology/Archive 2024
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Copyright Status for Scottish Coats of Arms
I am trying to determine the true copyright status for the coats of arms of Scottish Council Areas. I am asking this, as I have had some bother adding the East Ayrshire coat of arms to the Subdivisions of Scotland page. A bot keeps removing it.
i was always under the impression that these things are public domain, as they are surely very old. So, could you figure this out for me? Thank you. More information can be found at: this link. Pablothepenguin (talk) 18:20, 9 January 2024 (UTC)
- As was said on the media copyright board, a Coat of Arms is defined by a blazon (a text formal description), with any emblazonment (specific drawing) that follows that description considered "correct". Per Commons:Coats of arms, A blazon is public domain but each rendition has its own copyright. East Ayrshire's coat of arms where granted in 1996[1] so no rendition is old enough to automatically fall in the public domain. Specify, the rendition your trying to add (File:East Ayrshire arms.jpg) seem to have been created by the council themselves,[2] and is likely copyrighted by them.
- The good news is that anybody can create there own version and release it under a free licence, and then it can be used anywhere on Wikipedia, which is what is already the case with all the arms on the "Subdivisions of Scotland" page.[a] A good place to ask for such a file to be created is at WP:GLI. Cakelot1 ☞️ talk 21:26, 9 January 2024 (UTC)
Notes
- ^ For example, File:Coat of Arms of the Edinburgh City Council.svg was created by User:Euryrel, File:Glasgow Coat of Arms 1996.svg by User:TilmannR, and even the Royal coat of arms of the United Kingdom as used on Wikipedia is user created (by the great User:Sodacan)
References
- ^ "East Ayrshire". Hearldry of the world.
- ^ "East Ayrshire Coat of Arms". east-ayrshire.gov.uk.
- @Pablothepenguin: To piggy-back on this, many coats of arms displayed on Wikipedia are SVG files that conform to the blazons and are uploaded to Commons. (See File:Royal Coat of Arms of the United Kingdom (Scotland).svg for an example.) I specifically linked that file because it contains the warning that regardless of the copyright status of the particular emblazonment, all Scottish coats of arms are subject to the legal authority of Lord Lyon King of Arms. An SVG rendering of the arms for limited use in Subdivisions of Scotland, East Ayrshire and East Ayrshire Council should not run afoul of the various Lyon King of Arms Acts. I have added rationale to that image for use on the Subdivisions page and also added the image. However, SVGs are preferred as the creators release them to Commons for more general use. — Jkudlick ⚓ (talk) 23:03, 9 January 2024 (UTC)
- @Jkudlick: The problem with just adding a rationale for that use is that the use in question needs to comply with all ten non-free content use criteria, and not just WP:NFCC#10c. In other words, the file's use needs to comply with Wikipedia's non-free content use policy regardless of whether it meets the Lyon King of Arms Act and Wikpedia's policy is quite restrictive. Non-free images used to simply illustrate individual entries in tables, embedded lists or stand-alone list articles has pretty much never been allowed because such use is always considered WP:DECORATIVE per WP:NFC#CS, WP:NFLISTS and WP:NFTABLES, and there's almost always the possible of creating a free alternative to non-free use either by Wikilink, text or a freely licensed/public domain image per WP:FREER. This was sort of touched on at WP:MCQ#East Ayrshire council coat of arms on Subdivisions of Scotland article and I don't think an exception to this can be argue in this case since the file is basically be used as nothing more than an icon in a table listing just the names of the subdivisions or other basic information. For reference, removing the entire COA column is not really going to affect the encyclopedic understanding the section, but the other COA images in the table aren't non-free files and thus aren't subject to Wikipedia's non-free content use policy. -- Marchjuly (talk) 00:33, 10 January 2024 (UTC)
- @Marchjuly: Oh, duh... I've been around plenty long enough that I should have known that. Is this WP:TROUT-worthy, or just a WP:MINNOW level offense? (My talk page is over there.)
- @Pablothepenguin: It seems the only way to include the arms in Subdivisions of Scotland is for an SVG file to be created and uploaded to Commons. — Jkudlick ⚓ (talk) 01:57, 10 January 2024 (UTC)
- @Jkudlick: The problem with just adding a rationale for that use is that the use in question needs to comply with all ten non-free content use criteria, and not just WP:NFCC#10c. In other words, the file's use needs to comply with Wikipedia's non-free content use policy regardless of whether it meets the Lyon King of Arms Act and Wikpedia's policy is quite restrictive. Non-free images used to simply illustrate individual entries in tables, embedded lists or stand-alone list articles has pretty much never been allowed because such use is always considered WP:DECORATIVE per WP:NFC#CS, WP:NFLISTS and WP:NFTABLES, and there's almost always the possible of creating a free alternative to non-free use either by Wikilink, text or a freely licensed/public domain image per WP:FREER. This was sort of touched on at WP:MCQ#East Ayrshire council coat of arms on Subdivisions of Scotland article and I don't think an exception to this can be argue in this case since the file is basically be used as nothing more than an icon in a table listing just the names of the subdivisions or other basic information. For reference, removing the entire COA column is not really going to affect the encyclopedic understanding the section, but the other COA images in the table aren't non-free files and thus aren't subject to Wikipedia's non-free content use policy. -- Marchjuly (talk) 00:33, 10 January 2024 (UTC)
- @Pablothepenguin: To piggy-back on this, many coats of arms displayed on Wikipedia are SVG files that conform to the blazons and are uploaded to Commons. (See File:Royal Coat of Arms of the United Kingdom (Scotland).svg for an example.) I specifically linked that file because it contains the warning that regardless of the copyright status of the particular emblazonment, all Scottish coats of arms are subject to the legal authority of Lord Lyon King of Arms. An SVG rendering of the arms for limited use in Subdivisions of Scotland, East Ayrshire and East Ayrshire Council should not run afoul of the various Lyon King of Arms Acts. I have added rationale to that image for use on the Subdivisions page and also added the image. However, SVGs are preferred as the creators release them to Commons for more general use. — Jkudlick ⚓ (talk) 23:03, 9 January 2024 (UTC)
The usage of Seal (device) (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) is under discussion, see talk:seal (emblem) -- 65.92.247.66 (talk) 11:00, 14 January 2024 (UTC)
Review request
Hello! Could I request a heraldic speaker to review the caption at Ponte di Tiberio (Rimini)#Symbol of Rimini? I am not sure if "Rimini's coat of arms, showing a stylised Ponte di Tiberio underneath the Arch of Augustus on the left-hand side of the shield" is accurate/correct/the best we can do as a description. Thanks! IgnatiusofLondon (talk) 04:18, 14 February 2024 (UTC)
Requested move at Talk:Australian Aboriginal Flag#Requested move 13 February 2024
There is a requested move discussion at Talk:Australian Aboriginal Flag#Requested move 13 February 2024 that may be of interest to members of this WikiProject. Vanderwaalforces (talk) 17:22, 14 February 2024 (UTC)
Bluemantle Pursuivant's lecture in Copenhagen
A few days ago Mark Scott, Bluemantle Pursuivant since 2019, gave a lecture to the Danish Heraldry Society on the topic of the arms of the British royals. This could prove to be a valuable source for future articles. Unfortunately I can only find the video, not any written notes or transcripts. Robin S. Taylor (talk) 13:51, 3 March 2024 (UTC)
Requested move at Talk:Saint Piran's Flag#Requested move 19 February 2024
There is a requested move discussion at Talk:Saint Piran's Flag#Requested move 19 February 2024 that may be of interest to members of this WikiProject. ModernDayTrilobite (talk • contribs) 16:42, 7 March 2024 (UTC)
UK county flags discussion
A discussion has been opened at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject UK geography#County flags: discussion 1 concerning the UK county flags, which you are welcome to participate in. Thanks, A.D.Hope (talk) 11:16, 10 March 2024 (UTC)
Royal heraldry svg deletion discussion
There is a deletion discussion at commons:Commons:Deletion requests/Coat of arms of Queen Camilla.svg that may be of interest to members of this project. GrindtXX (talk) 23:20, 4 May 2024 (UTC)
Digital and physical flags
.svg)
This is currently regarding flags of Latvia and Bulgaria. Both of these countries have defined flags to be used in ditigal spaces, prints or other places other than flying the flag on a pole in real life, being different from the real life flags in shades of their coloring. Should the main flag on the articles Flag of Latvia and Flag of Bulgaria be the real flag or the digital flag? This discussion is also regarding the default flag in templates Template:Country data Latvia and Template:Country data Bulgaria — IмSтevan talk 13:11, 8 May 2024 (UTC)
- I have added a picture for the Latvian flag due to moves and deletitions — IмSтevan talk 13:20, 8 May 2024 (UTC)
- It should be the digital flag, Stevan. I already told you this on the talk page for Flag of Latvia yet you never responded when I did so, even though you were still active. You are saying you are basing this off the sources in the description when that *literally* says what the colors should be digitally. You haven't offered any reason as to why you did this without a consensus in the first place either. NorthTension (talk) 04:56, 9 May 2024 (UTC)
- All flags we use are the ones used physically. Why would we make an exception without any consensus on doing so? We don't have to abide by Latvian flag laws, so that's not exactly an arguement either — IмSтevan talk 09:41, 9 May 2024 (UTC)
- So why did you cite the flag laws then if we don't have to abide by them? NorthTension (talk) 11:28, 9 May 2024 (UTC)
- Because they state that there are multiple versions of the flag. I can't just go around making up national flags with no source — IмSтevan talk 11:40, 9 May 2024 (UTC)
- You said, "per sources laid out in the description (latvian flag laws)," and the flag laws you are sourcing say: "If the national flag of Latvia or the pennant of the national flag of Latvia is made from a textile, the carmine colour thereof shall conform with the Pantone Textile Colour System 19-1629 TPX or 19-1629 TC Colour Code", this isn't made from textile and as such it should be defaulting to the thing exactly below it saying "The 27 November 2018 amendment, which came into force 1 January 2019, states that non-fabric flags, as well as representations produced using other techniques (including digital representations), use Pantone 201 C."
- And no, we don't only ever use the physical ones, and you can't go, "Well, why can't we do X without any consensus?" when I've called you out on a unilateral change. Do you have an actual argument, or are you trying to deflect with a whataboutism because you don't? NorthTension (talk) 12:29, 9 May 2024 (UTC)
- "This isn't made from textile and as such it should be defaulting to the thing exactly below it", where was this agreed on? Give me an example of the physical flag not being used as the default — IмSтevan talk 12:33, 9 May 2024 (UTC)
- Okay so you don't have an argument then, got it. Can you yourself then give me an example of "all flags we use are the ones used physically?" Burden is lying on you because it's your claim. NorthTension (talk) 12:47, 9 May 2024 (UTC)
- Saying "you don't have an arguement" when somebody provides you with an arguement is real mature. I'm not providing 200 sources because you're incapable of supporting your claim with a single Wikimedia file — IмSтevan talk 12:52, 9 May 2024 (UTC)
- Okay so you don't have an argument then, got it. Can you yourself then give me an example of "all flags we use are the ones used physically?" Burden is lying on you because it's your claim. NorthTension (talk) 12:47, 9 May 2024 (UTC)
- "This isn't made from textile and as such it should be defaulting to the thing exactly below it", where was this agreed on? Give me an example of the physical flag not being used as the default — IмSтevan talk 12:33, 9 May 2024 (UTC)
- @Kamran.nef: Do you disagree with anything I said? — IмSтevan talk 12:00, 9 May 2024 (UTC)
- @ImStevan@NorthTension There are RGB values for Bulgarian flag colors and they are quite different from the print ones. But in Wiki the print ones are used, and going through the the file's upload history you can see that they decided on Pantone colors because the digital ones just don't look good, and there was a consensus to do it. There is no consistency on which version is used primarily for the main flag for different countries (look at Italy's flag and its history). In the case of this flag, while the points made by ImStevan are not invalid, the existence of legally specified digital colors and the fact that they look good (not like Bulgaria), I side with Pantone 201 C. That being said I will not revert if it is decided that textile colors are to be used. Kamran.nef (talk) 01:52, 10 May 2024 (UTC)
- We're not exactly here to decide what looks good tho — IмSтevan talk 08:32, 10 May 2024 (UTC)
- @ImStevan@NorthTension There are RGB values for Bulgarian flag colors and they are quite different from the print ones. But in Wiki the print ones are used, and going through the the file's upload history you can see that they decided on Pantone colors because the digital ones just don't look good, and there was a consensus to do it. There is no consistency on which version is used primarily for the main flag for different countries (look at Italy's flag and its history). In the case of this flag, while the points made by ImStevan are not invalid, the existence of legally specified digital colors and the fact that they look good (not like Bulgaria), I side with Pantone 201 C. That being said I will not revert if it is decided that textile colors are to be used. Kamran.nef (talk) 01:52, 10 May 2024 (UTC)
- Because they state that there are multiple versions of the flag. I can't just go around making up national flags with no source — IмSтevan talk 11:40, 9 May 2024 (UTC)
- So why did you cite the flag laws then if we don't have to abide by them? NorthTension (talk) 11:28, 9 May 2024 (UTC)
- All flags we use are the ones used physically. Why would we make an exception without any consensus on doing so? We don't have to abide by Latvian flag laws, so that's not exactly an arguement either — IмSтevan talk 09:41, 9 May 2024 (UTC)
Discussion on Russian coats of arms
An editor has requested assistance regarding whether the coats of arms included in the article Coat of arms of Russia are the correct ones. Please see Talk:Coat of arms of Russia § Changing to correct coat of arms. voorts (talk/contributions) 20:08, 12 May 2024 (UTC)
enarchment
See Talk:Embowed, where I raised a question in 2010 to silence —Tamfang (talk) 18:39, 14 May 2024 (UTC)
Long-due removal of fake flags
It appears that several flags on this wiki have been the brainchild of Oleg Tarnovsky, an individual who has made up multiple flags back in the 90s/2000s and his work has been erroneously been propogated as factual by multiple vexiollogical sites.
Some examples are listed below;
https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Flag_of_the_Tripolitanian_Republic.svg
https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Flag_of_the_Free_State_of_Chutkotka.svg
https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Bandera_de_Kamchatka,_1921-1922.svg
In lieu of this, I propose the project makes a conceded effort to remove these flags from articles and to mark them correctly as being fictional/erroneous. Thanks.
🤓 WeaponizingArchitecture | scream at me 🤓 15:19, 18 May 2024 (UTC)
Need help with St Louis flag, please and thank you?
On left is the flag of the American city of St. Louis. I don't know heraldry at all, but looking it up I came up with
(In heraldic terms this is a white-fimbriated dark blue pall on a red field with a bezant.)
I think that is right, except probably the bezant part. It is not a coin, and it has a fleur-de-lis on it. I'm not sure what to do and request advice? Should I
- Leave it be, it's OK
- Add "decorated/emblezoned/whatever with a fleur-de-lis"
- Delete the phrase "with a bezant" altogether.
- Delete the entire phrase, as the "with a bezant" is incorrect and has no proper replacement, thus the description is incomplete and this is not acceptable, or delete for other reasons
- Other?
Thanking you for your consideration, Herostratus (talk) 16:33, 3 June 2024 (UTC)
- I would blazon it Gules, a pall fesswise wavy azure fimbriated argent, surmounted at the junction by a bezant charged with a fleur-de-lis azure. Others may do differently. —Tamfang (talk) 03:36, 4 June 2024 (UTC)
- Ah, very good, I will use that, thank you (I'll write "could be described as..." to account for it being apparantly arguable). Herostratus (talk) 12:46, 7 June 2024 (UTC)
There is a requested move discussion at Talk:List of flags containing the color purple#Requested move 14 June 2024 that may be of interest to members of this WikiProject. Safari ScribeEdits! Talk! 19:16, 21 June 2024 (UTC)
UK sub-national geographic flags discussion
There is a discussion taking place at WikiProject UK geography about the use of flags in articles about UK sub-national geographic areas (e.g. counties). Anyone is welcome to participate; some knowledge of the UK's administrative structure would be beneficial. Thanks, A.D.Hope (talk) 07:58, 27 June 2024 (UTC)
There is an AFD taking place at the above link that may be of interest to members of this WikiProject ~Hydronium~Hydroxide~(Talk)~ 02:49, 3 July 2024 (UTC)
Requested move at Talk:Seal (East Asia)#Requested move 3 July 2024
There is a requested move discussion at Talk:Seal (East Asia)#Requested move 3 July 2024 that may be of interest to members of this WikiProject. Remsense诉 08:47, 3 July 2024 (UTC)
Looking for freely licensed equivalent emblazon for non-free COA
I'm looking for someone who could create a freely licensed equivalent embazon for the non-free File:Latymer Upper School coat of arms 2020 –.png. Anyone able to do so? -- Marchjuly (talk) 21:09, 11 July 2024 (UTC)
- here you go
.svg)
.svg){kind=link}
- ⇒ Zhing-Za, they/them, 06:21, 22 July 2024 (UTC)
- Thank you for that Zhing'za zï Ïnin -- Marchjuly (talk) 07:25, 22 July 2024 (UTC)
Free equivalents of non-free COA
I'm wondering whether anyone from WP:HERALDRY would mind taking a shot at creating some free quivalents for the following non-free COA: File:Coat of Arms of Norberto do Amaral.png, File:Coat of arms of Harry Goodhew.jpg, File:Coat of arms of Kay Goldsworthy.gif, File:Coat of arms of OM XII Fajutagana.png, File:Coat of arms of OM XIV Porlares.png, File:Coat of Arms of Felipe Pulido(San Diego).jpg, File:Coat of Arms of Jeffrey Marc Monforton(Detroit).jpg and File:Coat of arms of archbishop Thomas Chung An-zu.png. All these were almost certainly uploaded in good faith, but there seem to be issues with them per WP:FREER and WP:NFC#CS that might mean they can't per WP:NFCC given that it's only the emblazon, not the blazon, that is generally considered eligible for copyright protection when it comes to COA; so, freely licensed emblazons of equivalent quality could replace these non-free ones. -- Marchjuly (talk) 02:13, 20 May 2024 (UTC)
.jpg&action=edit&redlink=1){kind=link}
.jpg&action=edit&redlink=1){kind=link}
- Here's one of them (already added it to Wikidata and the article), File:Coat of arms of Bishop Felipe Pulido (San Diego, California).svg ⇒ Zhing-Za, they/them, 19:21, 24 July 2024 (UTC)
- Thank you for doing that Zhing'za zï Ïnin. -- Marchjuly (talk) 07:01, 25 July 2024 (UTC)
.svg){kind=link}