Jump to content

Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Classical music/Contemporary music task force/Archive 15

Page contents not supported in other languages.
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Archive 10←Archive 13Archive 14Archive 15Archive 16Archive 17

Composers RfC closure

I have proposed that the RfC be closed. Please continue to voice your opinion at the straw poll, also, as that must be the barometer for consensus. After that we can consider the full implications, deal accordingly and move on. Thank you --Jubilee♫clipman 16:33, 26 February 2010 (UTC)

More unreferenced BLPs

Some more under-referenced notable composers:

One who is notable as a performer, though I'm not sure as a composer:

Two of uncertain notability:

And one unreferenced non-living composer:

Sorry to drop more of these. I haven't time to search for references just now, but if anyone else has a moment to spare.... --Deskford (talk) 20:10, 27 February 2010 (UTC)

DASHBot—suggested above by Okip (see User:DASHBot/Wikiprojects)—can be used to find and sort more of these for us; I have taken a bold decision and agreed to its use. The results go on a bot generated subpage like the cleanup listings etc. Anyway, we will be forever finding unref'ed articles generally, let alone BLPs specifically, as we dig around so I don't think we should get too down-heartened by it all. New articles are added by the hour (minute?) don't forget and the greater majority are either straight copyvio (CSD) or anyway completely unreferenced (DUB/BLP-PROD/whatever if the final stages of the RfC on BLPs endorses the use of that tag). Take a look at Wikipedia:WikiProject Unreferenced Biographies of Living Persons for a giant list of all tagged uBLPs (and note the word tagged...) We have done our part spectacularly well and we should all be proud of our efforts thus far but remain vigilant in the future --Jubilee♫clipman 23:39, 27 February 2010 (UTC)

Yoshihisa Taïra

Yoshihisa Taïra has been moved to Yoshihisa Taira. No explanation was given, but I presume the editor concerned felt this brought it in line with a standard form of transliteration from Japanese to English. Similar moves have been made on the German and Spanish Wikipedias. However as far as I remember this composer spent most of his working life in France — the article calls him a "Japanese-born French composer" — and I thought that even in an English-language context his name was usually spelt the French way, i.e. "Taïra". Since the references cited are all to French sources it is a little difficult for me to check this. Is anyone with access to Grove or Oxford able to check how they spell his name? (I note that on the French Wikipedia the article has been moved in the opposite direction!) --Deskford (talk) 12:50, 12 March 2010 (UTC)

Grove Online uses the French orthography, and describes him as a "Japanese composer, active in France".—Jerome Kohl (talk) 04:32, 13 March 2010 (UTC)
On the other hand, the IRCAM website's biography spells the name without the diërises.—Jerome Kohl (talk) 04:56, 13 March 2010 (UTC)
On the third hand, the ETM publisher's site spells the name "Taïra" (this is not so difficult to check!).—Jerome Kohl (talk) 05:00, 13 March 2010 (UTC)
On the fourth hand, perhaps there is no definitive spelling? This has happened with Russians in the past, we ended up using which ever "felt" best, IIRC, in one case... not the best solution but at least intuitive! :) --Jubilee♫clipman 05:23, 13 March 2010 (UTC)
Since the main reason for not using the only truly definitive spelling (平 義久) is for alphabetization and sorting within an English-language context, the diacritic really doesn't matter. On the other hand, one rule of thumb in such cases is to follow the preference of the subject. Do we know how 平 signed his name in Latin characters?—Jerome Kohl (talk) 07:16, 13 March 2010 (UTC)
Are you sure he's called 平 and not 久? Or maybe 義久? Alright, I jest. You have a point, though: do we know his preference for Latin charcters? If not, we have to default to whatever the "norm" is in English, I think. Not French: English, as we are on en:WP... I am pretty sure that was the advice given concerning one of those Russians, anyway, by the Russian project. I'll check back to see if I can find the discussion; tommorow, probably --Jubilee♫clipman 02:27, 15 March 2010 (UTC)

Another one to watch

Our old friend Kobi arad (note capitalisation) is back, and this time he seems to be called Scholar57 (talk · contribs). --Deskford (talk) 21:55, 12 March 2010 (UTC)

... and now he's been deleted again. See Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Knoblauch129 for re-opened case. --Deskford (talk) 00:01, 13 March 2010 (UTC)
Thanks, Deskford. Good to see your beady eyes are as hard at work as ever! I'll be taking a Wikibreak soon, BTW, as the RfC has taken its toll... I have also been working on a personal project, recently, which has been quite exhasting (and harrowing, at times). Sorry I haven't been active here much but I will resume my duties in a few weeks. Cheers --Jubilee♫clipman 00:33, 13 March 2010 (UTC)

Added project to DASHBot listings

I went ahead and asked DASHBot (User:DASHBot/Wikiprojects) to list all unreferenced BLPs on a subpage: Wikipedia:WikiProject Contemporary music/Unreferenced BLPs. BTW, we actually have a category: Category:WikiProject contemporary music articles. I never realised that untill I dug around just now to add us to that page! Something new every day... (like Lego perhaps?) --Jubilee♫clipman 00:51, 13 March 2010 (UTC)

Update - DASHBot has found 17 articles. There must be more! I'll check them tomorrow and check that I have given it the correct info. Tell what, though, if that really is it we are on a winner! --Jubilee♫clipman 02:09, 15 March 2010 (UTC)

Since there are only 17, I just briefly checked them all and they are genuinely ours, I feel. Didn't check the tags or (lack of) refs, though. Interesting to see Goff Richards there! I love his Barnard Castle and have played several parts in it several times (Eb Bass, 2nd baritone, 1st/2nd tenor...) Not sure how well-known he is outside of Brass Band circles, though... --Jubilee♫clipman 02:19, 15 March 2010 (UTC)

The bot updates the page every night, BTW. The list has been reduced to 12, now. (Some were mistagged, others were referenced) --Jubilee♫clipman 00:07, 16 March 2010 (UTC)

Joseph Hallman

68.81.92.31 (talk · contribs) has recently added this composer to several lists and articles. Possible self promo... However, the composer seems well enough established to remain on WP as long as he is listed as C21st only. Thoughts? --Jubilee♫clipman 17:33, 16 March 2010 (UTC)

Following feedback from the Composers project, I have sent the article to AfD: Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Joseph Hallman. Cheers --Jubilee♫clipman 18:34, 16 March 2010 (UTC)

Class project

A class project appears to be underway at Duquesne University coordinated by User:Auntieruth55. See User:Auntieruth55/Shaping_the_Modern_World_Class_Project. Details here. User User:Panzak7 has just joined our WikiProject with that class project in mind, it seems. We should give her and the others every assistance. Cheers --Jubilee♫clipman 07:37, 17 March 2010 (UTC)

Sound and Music

I've created a stub article on Sound and Music. Those of you outside the UK may not be aware that this is the main government-supported agency to promote contemporary music in the UK. It was formed in 2008 from the merger of four separate organisations: SPNM, BMIC, CMN and SAN. Two of the four already had separate articles.

It is surprisingly difficult to find reference material on this body — any help would be welcome. In particular, can anyone clarify its exact geographical remit? As far as I can tell, it supports projects throughout the UK, but is funded by Arts Council England and not by Scottish Arts Council, Arts Council of Wales or Arts Council of Northern Ireland. Can this really be true?

--Deskford (talk) 21:24, 19 March 2010 (UTC)

The stub is a great start. It is always hard to find sources on these government initiatives, IMO, as the press don't often report on them; especially if they are for music... I'l dig around though --Jubilee♫clipman 15:17, 22 March 2010 (UTC)

RfC about to close

Any more on Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Composers/Infoboxes RfC? It closes up in a few days. Cheers --Jubilee♫clipman 15:18, 22 March 2010 (UTC)

Alla Elana Cohen

Does anyone know if Alla Elana Cohen is a notable composer? The article has no independent references, and has largely been created by two single-purpose accounts, Libertika (talk · contribs) and AllaCorrection (talk · contribs). One of the more problematic edits was reverted by another single purpose account Kkozma (talk · contribs), so I'm not sure what's going on here, but a lot of it has the feel of self-promotion. --Deskford (talk) 01:30, 24 March 2010 (UTC)

Not sure. I found these in a search but I am not sure how independent or truly reliable they are:
She may be getting better known, given the dates, most especially in the GLBT community. Let's sit on it for now, I say --Jubilee♫clipman 02:30, 24 March 2010 (UTC)

Update: a recent edit replaced the text of the article with a direct copy of the biography from the composer's website. I reverted this as a copyvio, but the reversion was contested by an IP editor. I have therefore reported the violation as per my reading of Wikipedia:CP#Instructions. Hope I'm doing the right thing! --Deskford (talk) 00:44, 26 March 2010 (UTC)

The IP is apparently associated directly with Ms Cohen's website. A notice has been placed on that site just above the bio: "THIIS OFFICIAL BIOGRAPHY OF ALLA ELANA COHEN MAY BE REPUBLISHED AT WICKIPEDIA WITHOUT ANY COPYRIGHT INFRINGEMENT....". The IP has also responded to Deskford on Talk:Alla Elana Cohen:

This biography was written by the author's publicist and the composer has requested that Wickipedia replace the old biography with this one. This biography is owned by the composer (a work for hire by her publicist) and the composer has made these changes.... As per your request we have displayed a notice indicating that this official artist biography may legally be republished at Wickipedia at the site of original publication: http://www.allacohen.com. Thanks!

Would these notices be a form of copyleft per Wikipedia:Donating copyrighted materials#Granting us permission to copy material already online? I am not convinced: I am pretty sure we need more than these statements to allow a direct copy/paste of material like this. Anyway, doesn't this practice defeat the point of WP as an encyclopedia that can be edited by anyone? The IP seems to be saying that Ms Cohen will not allow any other text than that found on her website. I have directed the IP to the WP:Donating copyrighted materials page, for now. Thoughts? --Jubilee♫clipman 05:40, 26 March 2010 (UTC)
I'm no expert in this copyright stuff, but I suspect that statement on her website is not enough. Doesn't the statement have to mention Creative Commons Attribution-Sharealike 3.0 Unported License and the GNU Free Documentation License? In particular, as I understand it, the material has to be released such that it can be modified and re-used elsewhere, not just on Wickipedia (or any similarly named site). The biography on her site still states "Copyright 2008 Alla Elana Cohen" at the bottom, and presumably she doesn't intend to leave the Wickipedia dispensation statement on there permanently. --Deskford (talk) 10:52, 26 March 2010 (UTC)
That is how I see it, too. The admin will either revert to a non-copyright version or (probably better, for now...) delete the article altogether. The whole thing reeks of Self-promo, anyway --Jubilee♫clipman 18:46, 26 March 2010 (UTC)

Alla Elana Cohen (2)

Ms Cohen, or whoever maintains her website, has placed the appropriate licensing statement on it, and a WP administrator has thus closed the copyvio case. We are still left with issues of self-promotion and conflict of interest, and I still feel that a composer's representative placing an "official" biography on WP rather goes against the spirit of WP. Any thoughts? --Deskford (talk) 23:26, 4 April 2010 (UTC)

Hm. I agree on all points. Perhaps we could make it unequivocally clear the the text is an direct extended quote from the source used with express premission by enclosing it in {{prettyquote}} and trying to source the "article" from elsewhere. My main concern is in the complete lack of any RSs (despite your carefully chosen templates...) Not checked the history, yet, but if that contains other material then that should be included. If the article cannot be sourced and expanded beyond containing a quote from an Official Website, then we PROD (I don't see any prior PROD) and failing that AFD. We must try to sort it out first though per WP:BEFORE, obviously --Jubilee♫clipman 23:51, 4 April 2010 (UTC)
OTOH... "The text of this biography is available for modification and reuse under the terms of the Creative Commons Attribution-Sharealike 3.0 Unported License and the GNU Free Documentation License (unversioned, with no invariant sections, front-cover texts, or back-cover texts." I vote AfD to see what the rest of the world WP think of this --Jubilee♫clipman 23:58, 4 April 2010 (UTC)

Thank you for your email. I think, that there should be a response to it,stating that all the major media sources in Boston (which is not a village, but a major cultural and musical center), not only Boston Globe and Musical Intelligencer, or Jewish Advocate, or EdgeBoston, but also Boston Herald,Boston Phoenix, Bay Windows, WGBH,had written or had segments about me, and that major performing collectives,such as JACK Quartet or Ariel Quartet,and internationally acclaimed artists performed my music,and there are 5 CDs released, so there are enough of reliable sources to assert the fact, that I am indeed a noted composer.(Allacohen (talk) 14:17, 28 May 2010 (UTC))

FAR

I have nominated Olivier Messiaen for a featured article review here. Please join the discussion on whether this article meets featured article criteria. Articles are typically reviewed for two weeks. If substantial concerns are not addressed during the review period, the article will be moved to the Featured Article Removal Candidates list for a further period, where editors may declare "Keep" or "Remove" the article's featured status. The instructions for the review process are here. YellowMonkey (vote in the Southern Stars and White Ferns supermodel photo poll) 05:36, 30 March 2010 (UTC)

The (single) concern is the lack of sourcing in a number of paragraphs. Shouldn't be too hard to deal with (he says...) --Jubilee♫clipman 06:00, 30 March 2010 (UTC)

Articles to check

Cross-posting from the CM project talk page...

Totentango - This article has the air of having been cribbed from somewhere, or if not, a rather inappropriate style. It's one of several articles related to the compositions of Matthew King (composer). Another one to check is King's Wood Symphony. I just found a lot of copyvio/close paraphrasing in Brunel (opera project) and The Snow Queen (opera) isn't looking too good either. Voceditenore (talk) 18:04, 13 April 2010 (UTC)

Thanks, Voce. The first still needs looking at, in fact, despite the minor additions and corrections here and there recently: the body of text remains the same as it was when V posted her note here. The Notability tag was removed for no obvous reason, also. The other articles need checking too, I agree --Jubilee♫clipman 20:54, 28 April 2010 (UTC)

Alexander Mosolov - Updated massively since last assessed. LazySofa (talk) 20:59, 2 May 2010 (UTC)

Thank you LazySofa. Will check it when I get a chance --Jubilee♫clipman 21:10, 2 May 2010 (UTC)

Morris Pert obituary

Somebody has plonked an obituary for Morris Pert at the end of his article without updating the body of the article. Has anybody got time to tidy this up...? --Deskford (talk) 15:54, 28 April 2010 (UTC)

Not me (see below) but hopefully someone will stumble on it soon or see this note --Jubilee♫clipman 20:54, 28 April 2010 (UTC)

Coordinator on Semi-Wikibreak

This to inform you all that I will be unable to access the internet for a while for a variety of reasons. Please continue your sterling and much appreciated work behind the scenes in the meantime and "I'll be back" (though without the huge truck!) --Jubilee♫clipman 20:54, 28 April 2010 (UTC)

Michael James Arman Brough

Michael James Arman Brough has just been deleted following a WP:PROD nomination. I didn't notice this until it had gone, but from an archive cache of the page I see it was an unreferenced BLP. It read:

I think deletion was probably appropriate — the above makes no real claim to notability — but I place this here just in case anyone feels otherwise. --Deskford (talk) 19:51, 5 May 2010 (UTC)

  • Doesn't look very notable to me. I could publish all my compositions and still probably wouldn't warrant a WP article. Anyway, I have just looked around the net and found nothing in a standard Google search (-Wikipedia), GBook search (with or without adding -inpublisher:Icon), GNews search nor even a Google News Archives search. Tried "Michael James Arman Brough", "Michael Brough" organist, "Michael Brough" composer, etc and came up with personal websites (not his), minor reviews, blogs, social networks...... i.e. the usual. Admittedly, there are a surgeon, a solicitor, and a footballer, all called Michael Brough, which confuses things, but I really do think deletion was correct --Jubilee♫clipman 20:16, 5 May 2010 (UTC)
I couldn't find any references either, though I notice that Hintersatz (talk · contribs) has requested undeletion of the article. --Deskford (talk) 10:27, 7 May 2010 (UTC)

AfD: Michael James Arman Brough

Following a contested WP:PROD, composer Michael James Arman Brough is now nominated per WP:AfD. Comments invited. --Deskford (talk) 07:56, 8 May 2010 (UTC)

Now deleted --Jubilee♫clipman 00:25, 15 May 2010 (UTC)

AfD: Jodi Levitz

The nom cites failure to meet WP:PROF as the main reason for sending to AfD but WP:MUSICBIO obviously applies here, too (or at least Others). She appears to be a champion of new music for the viola according to her faculty profile so she is very much within our scope, IMO. I am undecided so far and will comment once I get more of a chance to research and thus to source the article --Jubilee♫clipman 13:38, 10 May 2010 (UTC)

Very short Wikibreak

I am moving this weekend and will be off line for most of it, I would assume. I'll be back by Monday, though, I hope --Jubilee♫clipman 17:46, 21 May 2010 (UTC)

Forced Wikibreak

Following an extremely sensible suggestion by Brambleclawx on my talkpage, I am going to take a forced Wikibreak of 3 days. If that turns out not to be long enough, I will take longer. I have been over-working myself here recently and gone a little crazy as a result. I also have other priorities, of course, and WPholism is unhelpful if it impinges on my real life. See you all soon --Jubilee♫clipman 03:57, 24 May 2010 (UTC)

Alison Kay

The article on composer Alison Kay has been deleted, apparently as a copyvio. She's a more significant composer than many who have articles here — anyone know enough about her to create a non-copyvio article? --Deskford (talk) 20:40, 12 May 2010 (UTC)

I just looked at the Google cached version and the article was also orphaned and unreferenced "on 17 Apr 2010 17:19:52 GMT". She is relatively notable, IMO, and I'll have a go at creating an article soon. It is unfortunate that she was never tagged for this project as she would have been in Wikipedia:WikiProject Contemporary music/Unreferenced BLPs... On a side note, I'm still not really able to commit enough time to WP yet to do anything more than comment here and there: RL really is starting to take precedence, now --Jubilee♫clipman 20:58, 12 May 2010 (UTC)

Lyell Cresswell

I'm astonished to discover we have no article on Lyell Cresswell. We spend so much time debating borderline cases yet we overlook such a major figure! --Deskford (talk) 12:59, 17 May 2010 (UTC)

You make a good point! Perhaps we should make a list of the really important figures (with or without an article) and, indeed, a list of "movements" (e.g. New Simplicity), and any other important thing. It would be POV at this stage, obviously, but it would help us focus. Thoughts? --Jubilee♫clipman 18:45, 17 May 2010 (UTC)
I don't see anything wrong with POVs on discussion pages. On the other hand, do we really need to compile a list of topics that already have articles (such as New Simplicity)?—Jerome Kohl (talk) 19:07, 17 May 2010 (UTC)
Well... such a list might help us focus on improving those articles? Or not. Don't know really. A list of missing articles would be a start, though --Jubilee♫clipman 19:15, 17 May 2010 (UTC)
I think we should be careful about creating too many lists. I thought there once was a list of missing articles but I can't find it now. Maybe it got archived. Perhaps we need a careful rethink of where we keep such lists and how we maintain them. --Deskford (talk) 22:13, 17 May 2010 (UTC)
I have been thinking about this and you are right: we have plenty lists knocking around, most of them in my userspace, and there is the huge List of 21st-century classical composers, of course, that I keep putting of going back to... We need a short-list of critical names that don't have articles, perhaps, but we must not neglect any list that we come up with. Perhaps we need to start setting tasks? E.g. contribute at least 10 edits a week to 3 project-related pages or some such (i.e. 30 edits in total). Most of us will probably not have too much trouble with such a task under normal circumstances (and obviously RL is top priority as always). Sound good, bad? For my part: I haven't been doing much around here recently other than archiving, reviewing, commenting and informing about XfDs etc. I have been heavily involved in the MoS audits and have been reviewing the Music Notabilty Guidelines, though, things that will have a major impact on our project if the sweeping changes some people desire go through. Anyway, I'll be back here within the next month or so and get cracking on with that huge composer list. Our categories need reviewing big time, also --Jubilee♫clipman 07:48, 21 May 2010 (UTC)
Not sure about setting editing tasks and targets. Does one substantial edit count for the same as one simple typo correction? I think editors will do as much or as little as they find the time and inclination for. I already often find myself feeling guilty because I frequently flag up problems on these pages without having time to do anything about fixing them. I wouldn't want to add to that the guilt of not having met my editing quota for the week! What would be useful would be if we could devise a more structured and easily navigable database of tasks that need doing. --Deskford (talk) 10:21, 21 May 2010 (UTC)
Yeah. I almost deleted that task idea after I read it back but left it just to see what others thought. I got the idea from other WikiProjects but quite frankly I am not convinced that they take their "tasks" all that seriously, either. After all we are volunteers. Another idea for the bin then.  ;) I'll work on the database, though, when I get time. That would be useful. Thanks for that --Jubilee♫clipman 10:44, 21 May 2010 (UTC)
The project subpages are a mess, too. I forgot about those --Jubilee♫clipman 10:47, 21 May 2010 (UTC)
  • Suggestion Your list of articles to be created is here (including the red links that were removed from List of 21st-century classical composers). Anyhow, why don't you start small and do something like WikiProject Opera were we pick 3-5 articles for creation and 1-3 articles for improvement, label them "Collaboration of the Month" (or something similar) and put them in a box near the top of your project page. I find that we often attract outside editors that way. If they attract no editors, change the selections for the following month so your project page doesn't get stale. Voceditenore (talk) 11:13, 21 May 2010 (UTC)
    • AH!!! That's what you get for moving everything off the front page... Thanks Voc! Kleinzach suggested the collaboration of the month idea ages ago and it sounded quite a good idea but I wasn't sure how it would work. Now you have explained it afresh , I like it. We also need to promote the project more, in fact; otherwise, there's little point in sticking stuff on our front page...! Buzz/Moxy suggested a Portal but I am not sure we need to go that far. Perhaps a link on one of the other music Portals and a small amount of blurb? --Jubilee♫clipman 12:20, 21 May 2010 (UTC)
      • Well, you already are linked from Portal:Opera and Portal:Classical music but blurbs for projects in addition to the links aren't really appropriate. If Moxy is willing to make you a simple portal and you have enough articles of sufficient quality to put in it, it could be good idea for the future, but you can't really do that until the lead to Contemporary classical music is considerably expanded, as that will be the leading and permanent article on the portal. Also. if you do eventually go down that route, I'd suggest modelling on Portal:Opera which has automatically rotating content to keep it from getting stale and avoid laborious manual updating. Also, avoid "In the news" sections, they go stale very fast and require referencing. Better to have "DYK" and "On this date" sections instead. Voceditenore (talk) 13:33, 21 May 2010 (UTC)
Thanks for adding those sources to the FeBland article also. Still not sure they are enough but other bits and pieces might turn up before the AfD ends --Jubilee♫clipman 12:25, 21 May 2010 (UTC)
I only did it to see what was out there. Frankly, I think it should be deleted. Voceditenore (talk) 13:33, 21 May 2010 (UTC)
Oh: there is also Wikipedia:Requested articles/music/Classical composers. Never knew about that till I check an IPs edits just now! Shows how blind us regulars can get! --Jubilee♫clipman 12:38, 21 May 2010 (UTC)
  • Great suggestions, V! We need to consider carefully whether there is a need for a Portal—and whether it would be visited... True, we cover film and TV music but they are easy to find: just type the name of the film or whatever into the search box and press go in most cases. And the mains article needs a huge amount of work, anyway... And yes FeBland's article is not really viable, IMO --Jubilee♫clipman 14:53, 21 May 2010 (UTC)
Retrieved from "https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Classical_music/Contemporary_music_task_force/Archive_15&oldid=1088216922"