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RfC: How should we disambiguate men's national basketball team articles?

Regarding disambiguating men's national basketball team articles, the consensus is for:

1) Always include "men's" in the title, regardless of whether there is a corresponding "women's" article

There was little discussion of:

In this section, please also consider whether the gender-neutral title should be a disambiguation page or a redirect to the "men's" article if the "women's" article exists. If the "women's" article doesn't exist, then the title without "men's" should be a redirect to the one with "men's" regardless.

so there is no prejudice against discussing that in a new RfC.

Cunard (talk) 00:12, 7 October 2018 (UTC)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

I have started an RM at Talk:Lebanon national basketball team#Requested move 20 August 2018, but Tbhotch told me that an RfC for mass moves is better than an RM for a single article because there are lots of articles in Category:National basketball teams that follow the same pattern. So now here's an RfC.

How should we disambiguate men's national basketball team articles? Should we include "men's" in the title or not? GeoffreyT2000 (talk) 23:03, 24 August 2018 (UTC)

1) Always include "men's" in the title, regardless of whether there is a corresponding "women's" article

In this section, please also consider whether the gender-neutral title should be a disambiguation page or a redirect to the "men's" article if the "women's" article exists. If the "women's" article doesn't exist, then the title without "men's" should be a redirect to the one with "men's" regardless.

  • Support If it is a men's national team it should be called that. The nr.2 option is also acceptable in my opinion. Dammit_steve (talk) 11:42, 25 August 2018 (UTC)
  • Support use “Country Foo National basketball team” as a DAB. The option below is fine too (I read it fast, but I don’t really grasp the distinction) Rikster2 (talk) 13:37, 25 August 2018 (UTC)
  • Support This seems like the way to go. We cannot neglect the girls here. ~EDDY (talk/contribs)~ 18:58, 27 August 2018 (UTC)
  • Support (Summoned by bot). This seems the simplest option, and it removes the need to rename things if a new article is created. Men's basketball seems a reasonable description of what it is, and women's basketball isn't rare or obscure enough that there's any reasonable grounds to leave out the qualifier, to my mind. Anaxial (talk) 20:17, 6 September 2018 (UTC)
  • Support Almost every federation operates senior men's and women's teams and calls them that. It's the correct name. --hippo43 (talk) 19:45, 8 September 2018 (UTC)
  • Support since the only other option is to be sexist, exactly the same reason that you shouldn't ever see NCAA Final Four without either Men's or Women's in between --John, AF4JM (talk) 22:38, 10 September 2018 (UTC)
  • Support (Summoned by bot) Clear, unambiguous, and consistent. Layzner (Talk) 04:56, 14 September 2018 (UTC)
  • Support (Summoned by bot). We should aim for consistency. Rather than thinking about pronouns on an article-by-article basis, it's cleaner and easier (especially for new editors) just to use mens and womens for everything, rather than based on the existence of other pages. Also as per hippo43, it's in keeping with how most professional teams name themselves anyway. --RubenSchade (talk) 23:07, 17 September 2018 (UTC)

2) Always include "men's" in the title, if there is a corresponding women's team in existence, regardless of whether there is a corresponding "women's" article

In this section, please also consider whether the gender-neutral title should be a disambiguation page or a redirect to the "men's" article if the "women's" article exists. If the "women's" article doesn't exist, then the title without "men's" should be a redirect to the one with "men's" regardless.

  • Support - If there is a men's team for the country that is notable, then the women's team for that country should also be notable enough for an article... even if it doesn't exist yet. If there is no women's team from that country at all then there is no reason to mention "men's" in the title. If "men's" is already in the title there is no real reason to move the article. The gender neutral article should usually be a disambiguation page with both the men's and women's teams. Fyunck(click) (talk) 07:56, 25 August 2018 (UTC)
  • Support, as long as it is indicated that it is the male's team. © Tbhotch™ (en-2.5). 20:19, 31 August 2018 (UTC)

3) Include "men's" in the title, but only if there is a corresponding "women's" article

As in the section above, please also consider whether the gender-neutral title should be a disambiguation page or a redirect to the "men's" article if the "women's" article exists.

4) Never include "men's" in the title, regardless of whether there is a corresponding "women's" article

In this case, all of the articles in the category that already include "men's" in their titles except List of men's national basketball teams should be moved to the corresponding titles without "men's", deleting any existing redirect or WP:TWODABS page there. If there is already a disambiguation page with 3 or more entries at the title without "men's", then that page should be moved to the corresponding title with "(disambiguation)" at the end before moving the "men's" article.

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Scottie Wilbekin at 2017–18 EuroCup Basketball

Hi, I'm close to be in a war of edits with an IP editor due to this player at 2017–18 EuroCup Basketball and 2018 EuroCup Finals.

In that EuroCup's season, Wilbekin played with the Bosnian passport, acquiring the Turkish one in June 2018, that's after the whole season. Imo, this player, if he's relationed to this season (also in EuroCup Basketball Finals MVP and EuroCup Basketball MVP) must appear with the passport he had in that season: this means, the Bosnian one. Please, I want to end the war of edits with this IP user that I think he does not read my reasons/does not explain his edits (like me, lol). Cheers. Asturkian (talk) 12:37, 10 October 2018 (UTC)

User:jjin2536 and my page Lakers - Trail Blazers rivalry

Hi all. How do I get my page Lakers - Trail Blazers rivalry as part of this Wikiproject? I'd love to have the Projects perspective on my Wikipage and whether it is suitable for inclusion. Thanks so much! --Jjin2536 (talk) 03:48, 23 October 2018 (UTC)

National team ranking templates

As, S.A. Julio did for association football, I've created {{FIBA World Rankings}} for having updated directly all the positions in the infoboxes of the national teams. Easier to do, and to have every article updated. Asturkian (talk) 08:25, 2 November 2018 (UTC)

Nomination of Tony Hanson (basketball, born 1983) for deletion

A discussion is taking place as to whether the article Tony Hanson (basketball, born 1983) is suitable for inclusion in Wikipedia according to Wikipedia's policies and guidelines or whether it should be deleted.

The article will be discussed at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Tony Hanson (basketball, born 1983) until a consensus is reached, and anyone, including you, is welcome to contribute to the discussion. The nomination will explain the policies and guidelines which are of concern. The discussion focuses on high-quality evidence and our policies and guidelines.

Users may edit the article during the discussion, including to improve the article to address concerns raised in the discussion. However, do not remove the article-for-deletion notice from the top of the article. Rikster2 (talk) 12:31, 27 November 2018 (UTC)

Nomination of 2019 in basketball for deletion

A discussion is taking place as to whether the article 2019 in basketball is suitable for inclusion in Wikipedia according to Wikipedia's policies and guidelines or whether it should be deleted.

The article will be discussed at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/2019 in basketball until a consensus is reached, and anyone, including you, is welcome to contribute to the discussion. The nomination will explain the policies and guidelines which are of concern. The discussion focuses on high-quality evidence and our policies and guidelines.

Users may edit the article during the discussion, including to improve the article to address concerns raised in the discussion. However, do not remove the article-for-deletion notice from the top of the article. Rikster2 (talk) 23:22, 3 January 2019 (UTC)

Edits that say the European-wide basketball leagues have no ranking or tiers, and cannot be considered at any different levels

Currently, there seems to be a dispute from Hippo43 that there is no ranking level or tier level of any of the pan European basketball leagues (EuroLeague, EuroCup, Basketball Champions League, FIBA Europe Cup)....this is factually incorrect, as there is, and the leagues are definitely proportioned as such. However, the league articles keep getting edited to show there is no difference in level, as if there are 4 equal level European basketball leagues, which is of course completely impossible.Bluesangrel (talk) 04:50, 21 September 2018 (UTC)

No, Bluesangrel has misunderstood and misstated my view. I made some edits at European professional club basketball system, which was full of mistakes. Without getting into every change I made, the idea that there is a "pyramid" of European competitions is unsourced.
In the article I wrote "The EuroLeague is the most prestigious and highest-profile competition...The EuroCup is a lower level competition, also organised by EuroLeague Basketball...FIBA's Basketball Champions League, which began in 2016, is another competition at a lower level than the EuroLeague...FIBA also organises its own secondary competition, the FIBA Europe Cup." This seemed to me to be uncontroversial. It puts the competitions in the same order that they were described before.
However, in some of these articles there seems to be an obsession with using jargon like "tiers", "levels", "pyramids" etc. If these can be referenced with reliable sources, then great. But currently they aren't. --hippo43 (talk) 05:13, 21 September 2018 (UTC)
There are two sides of a coin in this situation. The first side is that nobody can deny that EuroLeague is the top-tier, EuroCup is the second-tier, Basketball Champions League is the second/third-tier (disputed) and FIBA Europe Cup is the forth-tier leagues. The second side is that there are no official sources that classify these leagues in such order. In addition, the second side does not deny the first side that EuroLeague is the top-tier league in Europe, but the lack of official sources about "tiers" is WP:OR at best. I looked through the changes made by Hippo43 and there was nothing controversial in those edits. Furthermore, there is no "European basketball pyramid" as Bluesangrel claims and this whole edit warring looks silly from both sides. Unless the whole continent of Europe becomes one sovereign state and calls themselves "the United States of Europe" (or any other name that would imply that), there is no point in sorting international competitions by non existent "tiers". – Sabbatino (talk) 12:10, 21 September 2018 (UTC)
There are off classes of tiers, in fact I posted an article from legit European media, from Sportando (US media often cites them), quoting the very President of FIBA, and the Basketball Champions League stating himself about the different tiers of the pan European basketball competitions. So yes, there are tiers officially, and FIBA's own head stated such in the media - Comninos: Basketball Champions League in a clear growth, improving level and brand the next targets "The Basketball Champions League is built on the concept of recognising performance on the court. It is our founding principle and remains at the heart of our vision. Sport is and always will be about competition and pursuit of the championship trophy. There are no guaranteed positions to the Basketball Champions League and access is determined by sport results. This is a fundamental principle and a cornerstone of the European pyramid of sports."
Those edits and sources were them removed by Hippo43, with no other explanation than to claim they were not legit and were not valid sources (despite it being a hugely respected media source and the head of international basketball.) So using that standard, no source could ever suffice.Bluesangrel (talk) 23:53, 21 September 2018 (UTC)
I explained why at the article talk page. This source says "European pyramid of sports", not basketball pyramid. It also says that the BCL is a "a top tier competition". So it directly contradicts what you have said. It doesn't mention four tiers, or any other tiers at all. --hippo43 (talk) 23:58, 21 September 2018 (UTC)
There are tiers and it's common knowledge. FIBA states EuroLeague is 1, BCL is 2, EuroCup is 3 and Europe Cup is 4. EuroLeague states EuroLeague is 1, EuroCup 2, BCL 3, and Europe Cup 4. There are dozens of articles in respecting press around the world (probably hundreds) stating that EuroLeague is 1, and that FIBA and EuroLeague dispute between EuroCup and BCL as 2/3. It is quite frankly, absolutely ridiculous for this to even be discussed as a debate.Bluesangrel (talk) 20:50, 21 September 2018 (UTC)
I would add, this is such basic common knowledge of European basketball, that if people here won't agree to that, then this should be taken to a general sports discussion or site discussion overall. Because it's basic common fact that this is the case, and people are claiming it isn't.Bluesangrel (talk) 20:52, 21 September 2018 (UTC)

Bluesangrel has continued edit warring at this article. I have reverted and explained in detail at the article talk page. I'm happy to discuss specifics but this approach is becoming disruptive. --hippo43 (talk) 23:31, 21 September 2018 (UTC)

A mod needs to get involved in this. I am not edit warring, and keep being falsely accused of that. I edited the article again to what is basic common knowledge and fact, added over 30 sources from legit and well-known media, and it was reverted it again. A mod needs to get involved here, and Hippo I am asking you kindly to stop making false accusations against me (edit warring, etc.) as you have done so now numerous times.Bluesangrel (talk) 23:38, 21 September 2018 (UTC)
It should also be noted that Hippo43 had several times reverted edits made Vasconia at the same article.
I'm sorry you think I am falsely accusing you of something. I don't mean to be personal. However, you started this discussion here, and when you didn't get the support you wanted, you simply reverted all your changes anyway. Please discuss specific details before making wholesale changes again. I don't know if it's technically edit warring, and I don't really care, but it is disruptive and not in the spirit of collaboration. --hippo43 (talk) 23:49, 21 September 2018 (UTC)
At just your talk page or my talk page, or just the article talk page, that only works if there is any semblance of agreement. There is none. After over 30 sources being added to the article, many of them from the official sources themselves (the actual leagues themselves), and some of the other biggest independent medias on the subject, you reverted everything, claiming the sources simply are wrong and not valid (paraphrasing). This was after you had originally claimed that you reverted edits because they had no legit sources and that legit sources needed to be added. Almost 3 dozen legit sources were added, then you reverted and simply argued none of the sources were valid. All the article's talk page is you arguing that no sources are valid, no matter if they are official, or from high level media. That isn't any kind of attempt at a discussion.Bluesangrel (talk) 00:00, 22 September 2018 (UTC)
Just for reference, the article had over 30 sources, many from official leagues themselves, and also from widely respected and well known medias - [1] and it was reverted with the reason of [2] - "Bluesangrel, again you undid numerous improvements that I made, and which had support at the project talk page, without any explanation. This is disruptive and not a collegial approach to editing.
Are you a native English speaker? Even if you are, it can take time to understand the accuracy needed here. Phrases such as “tier pyramid”, “European-wide” or “promotion and demotion” are just not used in English in this context.
You have cherry-picked numerous sources which are out of date, not reliable sources (basically blogs with no reputation for fact checking), linked to one of the two governing bodies, only mention this stuff in passing, or which actually contradict your statements. For example, the Sportcal source you added says the FIBA Europe Cup is 2nd tier. Similarly, the Sportando source which mentions “the European pyramid of sports” (not basketball pyramid), also states that the BCL is “a top tier competition”. Eurohoops.net, for example, claims it is an official media partner of EuroLeague Basketball, so is not unbiased." - and of course, again, the sources came from league's themselves, from large medias...and as can be seen in the old version of the article, every single thing stated in the article was sourced with numerous articles and sources.Bluesangrel (talk) 00:23, 22 September 2018 (UTC)
So, a total of 34 sources, from either official leagues, or large medias, and a few from highly respected sports sites, were simply reverted and all said to be invalid. Also, simply adding the sources in the first place to the article, after it was stated that sources needed to be added (that was the reason for a previous revert) led to claims that I was edit warring and being disruptive. If that is edit warring and being disruptive, then what is reverting edits (from another editor [Vasconia]), then claiming they needed sources to be added, and then after another editor (me) added sources, they reverted edits again and simply state sources are all invalid.....so what is that, if simply adding sources is edit warring and disruptive?Bluesangrel (talk) 00:30, 22 September 2018 (UTC)

Questions

  1. Why isn't there an identical parameter in UEFA Europa League, which is universally understood to be the NIT of European football?
  2. And if that article doesn't have that parameter, then why are we doing this for basketball articles? (Presumably basketball fans know the ranking between the Euroleague, EuroCup and BCL)? Howard the Duck (talk) 01:49, 11 October 2018 (UTC)
Tagging Bluesangrel for a reply on these questions. Howard the Duck (talk) 10:40, 30 October 2018 (UTC)
Very few basketball fans outside of Europe (probably less than 1%) knows it. Even in Europe you find many basketball fans that are unaware there are European leagues. And in places like the UK, most don't even know they have basketball leagues in Europe. Bluesangrel (talk) 21:49, 30 October 2018 (UTC)
That's probably true. But I dunno how the ranking of Euroleague > EuroCup > Champions League > Europe Cup translates into it being a "pyramid". By the football counterpart, (which you haven't explained why these parameters are not used) the Champions League and Europa League are connected (like losers in certain rounds of the Champions League go to the Europa League, and the winner competes in the next season's Champions League). In basketball these aren't, at least for those controlled by FIBA and the Euroleague. You can probably say that these leagues are ranked that way, but to say it's part of a "pyramid" isn't right; it's like saying that the NBA is on top of the U.S. basketball pyramid, with the G-League as the second level. There's no promotion and relegation between the two, so saying it's a pyramid of sorts is factually wrong. Howard the Duck (talk) 12:21, 31 October 2018 (UTC)
The leagues are interconnected through places won in the competitions (which thus means they are "tiered" in European sports), as was already explained, with numerous official sources given, so yes, each league has direct promotion with each other. The finalists of BCL are given places in EuroCup, winner of EuroCup gets a place in EuroLeague, and winner of Europe Cup gets a place in BCL. This information is stated right at official websites, and was added to the article with the sources, which were then removed, with the claim they were not legit sources, as were independent media articles from major sites, saying the same (were removed and said to not be legit). Anyway, like I said, I am not wasting time over this anymore. It's basic common knowledge of sports fact in Europe that the leagues are in tiers (actually as I said, it's fine for BCL and EuroCup to both be second tier, as that's how it is viewed independently), and that's actually how it is. But if there is so much very strong opposition to that from some here in Wikipedia, I am not wasting my time debating it. If dozens of official sources can't sway those opinions, there is no logical reason to keep discussing it. Also, on the idea these leagues are completely on their own merit and totally have no connection - that is wrong also. EuroLeague/EuroCup/BCL are all leagues governed by 50% of the clubs and leagues of those clubs. The only leage in Europe which prevents teams from playing in EuroCup is Greek League, but they allow teams to play in EuroLeague. Every single year the clubs in the leagues change, as none of the leagues are franchise based, and the same teams can play in a different European league every season, and some do. So it's not true, the leagues are totally separated, since each one of the leagues is controlled 50% by the clubs, and the clubs change from year to year, and many move through the different leagues all the time. For the leagues to be completely separated, they would have to have their own set of clubs, which none of the leagues have.Bluesangrel (talk)
Do you have a reference where the BCL champs play in the EuroCup? BCL champs AEK Athens didn't participate this year in the EuroCup for some reason; in fact they're in the BCL again this year. Surely a level-2 EuroCup appearance for them would be a bigger achievement that participating in the purported third level BCL? Howard the Duck (talk) 23:53, 2 November 2018 (UTC)
The finalists of BCL are invited to play in EuroCup. AEK does not play in EuroCup because the Greek League does not allow any Greek clubs to play in EuroCup. It's the only league in Europe that bans clubs from EuroCup. Otherwise AEK could be in EuroCup if it wanted to, but BCL pays clubs more money than EuroCup does, and has more marketing income, so a lot of clubs choose a contract with BCL instead of playing in EuroCup. AEK is one of them. Just like Brose Baskets that played many years in EuroLeague chose to play in BCL instead of EuroCup in order to make more money. Whatever team finishes in 3rd place in the Greek League, automatically gets a place in the EuroCup. But the Greek League bans the clubs from accepting it. BCL isn't the 3rd level. EuroCup and BCL are both considered 2nd level. There are 2 second level leagues, then a 4th level league in FIBA Europe Cup. And actually, BCL is probably quite a bit more prestigious than EuroCup is from a fan interest POV, since FIBA puts a huge investment in it (the BCL Final Four last year for example had a huge budget - whereas EuroCup finals is hardly even marketed), and a lot of very popular clubs with huge fan bases choose to play in it. While EuroCup in comparison only exists for EuroLeague to have a way to allow other clubs to win a place in it. It's mostly clubs with rich owners, trying to win a place in EuroLeague, but has very little attention paid to it, as most fans follow only EuroLeague. I put sources for the places for BCL in EuroCup in the article, which were removed. They are in the old versions of the article, before it was reverted. If I have time, I will look through them again. But it's clearly stated that they offer places to teams in EuroCup from BCL.Bluesangrel (talk) 02:34, 9 November 2018 (UTC)
Can you look for these again. "Offered" seems rather dodgy. If the other party isn't accepting it, it's good as none. I'd actually would love to read the actual article explaining how the pyramid is made. Reading your explanation, the Euroleague is the undisputed "level 1" although for some reason the membership is a hybrid of U.S. and rest-of-the-world where like 75% of the slots are reserved for some teams no matter how they finish in their domestic league, while the other 25% is for the best perfoming teams from 4 domestic leagues. Curiously, if AEK Athens wins their domestic league, they can't qualify to the "level 1" of the pyramid, throwing its "pyramidness" in doubt. More so if the difference between the so-called "level 2" and "level 3" is blurry to the point that it's interchangeable. I can probably understand the ranking of EL>EC/BCL>BCL/EC>FEC but to assign these leagues as levels in a pyramid in the manner like the NBA is "level 1" of the U.S. and Toronto pyramid, with the G-League and other minor leagues are level 2 and the college leagues are levels 3 to 5 (Divisions I to III) are most probably a misunderstanding on what a "sports pyramid" is, at least in a footballing context. Howard the Duck (talk) 05:14, 17 November 2018 (UTC)
It's the official rules of the league. Again, these sources were added to the article, then removed and said to be not legit. I will give the source from official league statement, but first a lot needs to be clarified here. AEK isn't allowed to play in EuroCup by Greek League anyway, so that makes no difference. If a non Greek team was a BCL finalist, they could change to EuroCup, if they wanted (some teams prefer BCL because the league has a bigger budget and more marketing and press coverage). EuroCup didn't get the champions AEK Athens to move (because Greek League won't allow it, and also because AEK has a contract with BCL), so they gave it to the 2nd place team AS Monaco instead, which moved to EuroCup this year. AS Monaco had no contract with BCL, and French League where they play domestically, allows teams to play in EuroCup. Being a league finalist in BCL gets you an invite to EuroCup. So AS Monaco being the BCL finalist, is now in EuroCup this year, per how the league rules work.Bluesangrel (talk) 17:35, 17 November 2018 (UTC)
Champions League is no different than EuroLeague in how they assign places for the clubs, it just looks that way, because BCL has 32 teams, while EuroLeague has only 16 teams, which gives a false impression that EuroLeague is more restrictive with places. It isn't, it simply demands a much higher standard of teams (the level of the league overall is far higher than EuroCup/BCL overall levels), so of course it will have much less teams in it. There are also numerous teams in Champions League with contracts. Just as an example from Greek League, which won't allow teams in EuroCup, so it is a good example - AEK Athens, Aris Thessaloniki, and PAOK Thessaloniki all have contracts with BCL. So they cannot play in any other league as long as those contracts exist (they all signed 3 year contracts when the league began), and they are guaranteed a place in the league, no matter where they finish in Greek League. Last year, Aris did not qualify for BCL based on where they finished in Greek League (9th place out of 14 teams). They were however immediately put into the BCL qualification rounds, because they have a contract. So the only difference for not qualifying in the domestic league is going into the qualifying round and not the regular season. Finishing in 9th place in Greek League does not even allow a team to BCL qualifiers - so very clearly it is a contract to the league (no different than some teams have in EuroLeague).Bluesangrel (talk) 17:35, 17 November 2018 (UTC)
This season, Hapoel Jerusalem left EuroCup and moved to BCL, and got a contract to play in BCL, no matter what they do in Israeli League. Brose Baskets Bamberg also decided to join with the FIBA BCL this season, because they didn't qualify to EuroLeague this season. Their finish in the German League was not good enough to make it into EuroLeague (4th place). They wanted EuroLeague to give them a contract, due to their large budget and rich ownership, and they did not get one. Instead, EuroLeague preferred to give a contract to Bayern Munich from Germany, because that club has a much huger fan base, and is building a big new arena. So rather than play in EuroCup this season (where finishing in 4th place in Germany would place them), Brose chose to move to BCL, and were given a 5 year contract by BCL. So they can play in BCL regardless of where they finish in German League - having a guaranteed place for the next 5 years, as long as they want it. So BCL is just the same exact model as EuroLeague (despite claiming it is not), they simply allow a lot more teams, with a lot lower standard. EuroCup (which EuroLeague controls) is also the same. Teams have all kinds of ways to get into EuroCup also, including numerous invites, and it also has more teams than EuroLeague (24 to EuroLeague's 16) and a generally much lower standard of what teams are allowed.Bluesangrel (talk) 17:35, 17 November 2018 (UTC)
Also, AEK Athens can play in EuroLeague if they win Greek League. League champions of the good national leagues get automatic places in EuroLeague. The Greek League champion has an automatic place in EuroLeague, so if AEK, or any other team from Greece, won the Greek League, they would instantly be in EuroLeague (as long as they accepted it, but no reason for them not to, unless financial problems - EuroLeague has a minimum budget rule for teams). And also, yes, it is almost always called and referred to as the European basketball pyramid. Even in the games, the FIBA announcers (who usually work for FIBA), say first tier on European pyramid EuroLeague, and second tier on European pyramid BCL / EuroCup. Just in the last BCL game I watched, they very clearly stated that right at the start of the game. I am giving a link to where you can watch that online for free, and the time stamp, so you can see this is exactly how it is viewed in Europe...Bluesangrel (talk) 17:35, 17 November 2018 (UTC)
Promitheas Patras versus Medi Bayreuth BCL game this season ---> [3] at the 5 minute and zero seconds mark of the video, they clearly state BCL is "the 2nd tier competition on the continent". So yes, that's exactly how these competitions are referred to in Europe.Bluesangrel (talk) 17:35, 17 November 2018 (UTC)
Promitheas Patras versus Besiktas Istanbul BCL game this season ---> [4] at the 6 minute and 40 seconds mark of the video, they clearly state BCL is "the 2nd tier Pan-European competition now, behind EuroLeague." So clearly stating the leagues are viewed as being in tiers, and BCL is viewed as a 2nd tier, and is below the top tier, which is EuroLeague. It simply is not correct that these competitions are not referred to as tiers, and as tiers compared to each other (otherwise known as a pyramid). It's just not correct at all, they are in fact exactly referred to in that way.Bluesangrel (talk) 17:35, 17 November 2018 (UTC)
BCL finalists have places in next season's EuroCup, if they want them ---> [5] - again, no reason for such legit sources (the largest European basketball sports media site) to have been removed from the article, with the explanation as to why simply being "not legit sources". Notice the same source also states clearly that the Greek League gets a place in EuroCup (its for the 3rd place team). So yes, Greek teams like AEK Athens (BCL champions), and PAOK Thessaloniki (3rd place Greek team) could both be playing in EuroCup this season, if they wanted to, and if not for the fact the Greek League itself bans them from doing so. For absolute clarification, from the EuroLeague's organizing body, Euroleague Basketball, which also controls the EuroCup competition itself ---> [6] - very clearly stated that Basketball Champions League finalists have access to EuroCup the next season, if they choose to do so, the same as they previously had the same arrangement from 2008 to 2012, when finalists of FIBA EuroChallenge could go to the next season's EuroCup.Bluesangrel (talk) 17:45, 17 November 2018 (UTC)
So from what I can see, there are more than 1 organizers organizing pan-European basketball competitions. Presumably, the BCL also "offers" champions of the biggest leagues like the Spain, Greece and VTB to their competition. While people can almost certainly say that there are "tiers", I could say that there are two "pyramids", the Euroleague/Eurocup on one, and the BCL/FEC on the other, just that the first one is viewed as the "tougher competition". This is sorta like the situation between the Football League and the Football Alliance in the late 19th century, wherein you could probably say the former is more competitive than the other, but since the former doesn't control the latter, it's not in the former's pyramid. Howard the Duck (talk) 00:31, 18 November 2018 (UTC)
There is no sports media in Europe that considers BCL as a separate tier from EuroLeague or EuroCup. It's universally considered as one of two second tiers under EuroLeague. That's what is odd about this debate here - it's literally basic sports facts 101 of Europe and not disputed in any European sports media. Even FIBA states it this way, so this is one of the more confounding debates here. The argument that because you have a different league organizer - for the last 15 years that is exactly what they did in European basketball. It was always that way as a fact - EuroLeague / EuroCup and then FIBA EuroChallenge under FIBA, since 2003. This has been a fact and always been this way. It never changed just because FIBA decided to replace with EuroChallenge with Champions League, which is simply a re-branding. If a separate organizer is what determines tiers, then why was EuroChallenge officially listed as the 3rd tier competition since 2003 and officially by all the leagues in question including both organizers? Since EuroChallenge had a different organizer from EuroLeague/EuroCup, it could not be on the same tier if that is true that different organizer means different tier, yet it was for 12 years..for 12 years FIBA itself said EuroChallenge was 3rd tier after EuroLeague and EuroCup. Bluesangrel (talk) 23:00, 22 November 2018 (UTC)
It's good enough that we're talking explicitly about "tiers" now, and not "pyramids", which is the term infoboxes use. Almost certainly BCL is "second tier", but it being on a pyramid with the Euroleague is distorting what the term "pyramid" means, at least on a sporting context. Again, the UEFA Champions League and UEFA Europa League doesn't add this in the infobox, and I'd suggest keeping this off in these leagues' articles for now as putting it in the infobox is oversimplifying things that should better be explained in the main body of the article. Howard the Duck (talk) 02:23, 23 November 2018 (UTC)

User:Bluesangrel, I think this was you added the tier parameter in FIBA Intercontinental Cup. Everyone who knows basketball knows that this is absolutely false. The usage of "levels" in basketball leagues in this way has been patently absurd and bordering on falsehood. (There's no "universal international league pyramid", nor is there one in Europe, as what has been determined here in our discussion. Perhaps an explanation in the prose would be okay, but using the sports pyramid parameter in infoboxes this way on basketball leagues is oversimplication at best, and falsehood at the worst. Howard the Duck (talk) 13:22, 9 December 2018 (UTC)

He has been doing the same at FIBA Americas League, trying to claim that it is merely a "Latin American tournament" when the concept was always the same and American teams did participate. User:Bluesangrel is violating the "no original research" policy on a regular basis, and perhaps worse, edit warring over his own interpretation of the rules. 64.237.236.63 (talk) 16:40, 18 January 2019 (UTC)
We need voices of some other people besides you and me. Howard the Duck (talk) 19:30, 19 January 2019 (UTC)

Inclusion of Pan American tournament in unofficial South American professional club basketball system

I just found out about this page after discovering that the FIBA Americas League, which is clearly a Pan American event, was being listed as the top "tier" of this "pyramid". A continent-wide competition can't be reduced to only one of its regions, yet this was stated both in the prose of the article and classified as such... For three whole years. Is this common practice? 64.237.236.63 (talk) 12:19, 30 December 2018 (UTC)

I think that someone has to deal with the ownership issues of User:Bluesangrel. He clearly doesn't comprehend what constitutes the scope of these events, yet insists on perpetuating his revisions in place. 64.237.236.63 (talk) 16:31, 18 January 2019 (UTC)
Please refer to my reply in the preceding section. I'd also imagine the FIBA Americas League as the "top" Latin American basketball league as it feeds from Liga Sudamericana, and is currently entirely competed from Latin American countries. I'd imagine if teams from the Anglo Caribbean, Canada, or US minor leagues participate can it say that it's not an entirely "Latin American" league. Howard the Duck (talk) 19:30, 19 January 2019 (UTC)

Category:NCAA Men's Division I Final Four basketball players by year has been nominated for discussion

Category:NCAA Men's Division I Final Four basketball players by year, which you created, has been nominated for possible deletion, merging, or renaming. A discussion is taking place to decide whether this proposal complies with the categorization guidelines. If you would like to participate in the discussion, you are invited to add your comments at the category's entry on the categories for discussion page. Thank you. Rikster2 (talk) 14:26, 20 January 2019 (UTC)

Foreign language assistance to confirm signing

Derrick Walton seems to have signed with Alba Berlin, but I see only refs in foreign languages. Could someone who can understand some of these languages update his article to say he has signed with a new team.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 14:19, 13 February 2019 (UTC)

I always use Google Translate. There should be a notice on the Alba Berlin site (just look for the pic of Walton). Rikster2 (talk) 20:52, 13 February 2019 (UTC)
Some english stories have come out in the last 24 hours.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 14:38, 14 February 2019 (UTC)

Valencia Basket

Hi, I'm not very good at using wikipedia, but I want to be useful.

I would like to change some parts of the Valencia Basket article, new logos, pictures and details.

Link https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Valencia_Basket

Who can help me?

Thanks in advance! — Preceding unsigned comment added by Alvaromartinezcantos (talk • contribs) 13:00, 22 February 2019 (UTC)

Hi, I wrote a message in your talkpage. Right now I can't help you as I am at work. Greetings and welcome, Álvaro. Asturkian (talk) 13:12, 22 February 2019 (UTC)

New article creation

Hello everyone! I am currently thinking about creating a page about Anthony Richardson (former Florida State player), this are some of his stats, here the Italian Wiki page. Basically he was a CBA all-star (as a rookie), USBL MVP, USBL top scorer, and played in Germany, Netherlands and Japan. I assume that he is indeed notable (he also played in the ULEB cup) per Wikipedia:WikiProject Basketball/Notability, but since I always created players who played in those leagues that automatically guaranteed notability (Italy, Spain, etc.), and he did not, I am dubious this time. Do you think that a player with such a career is notable? I am asking because I don't want to work hours on a page that can be deleted... Thank you in advance! --Triple 8~enwiki (talk) 13:34, 25 February 2019 (UTC)

I haven't looked, but my guess is that Richardson would meet WP:GNG. My advice is do a little research and see if you can find the reliable, independent sources to demonstrate GNG. That's usually 2+ substantial pieces from independent media (newspapers, on-line sources like ESPN.com or CBSSports.com, books, magazines - just not sources affiliated with the leagues/schools he has played for) that are about Richardson specifically. You can fill in playing details like player movement, awards and stats from sources that don't need to specifically be independent, but should be reliable. If you can't find the 2+ sources to demonstrate GNG, then that's a bad omen for the subject. Rikster2 (talk) 14:16, 25 February 2019 (UTC)
Thank you for your reply! I created the page: Anthony Richardson (basketball). It should be fine (he was an all-star in two different countries...) --Triple 8~enwiki (talk) 20:18, 25 February 2019 (UTC)
@Triple 8~enwiki: Based only on the sources in the article so far, my immediate concern is that most of the sources are not independent. His school and teams have a vested interest to write about him, so they typically don't count towards meeting WP:GNG. More sources like this one would be needed. My guess is there's probably coverage out there from his college days, mostly because he was a McDonalds All-American and was a promising prospect. Keep in mind that being an All-Star (like his pro ones) isnt notable in itself from a Wikipedia perspective unless that means its likely coverage exists that's more than a trivial one- or two-sentence mention. My advice for you in the future would be to cite more independent, significant sources in new articles if you want to minimize the chance of someone being tempted to open an WP:AFD. Cheers.—Bagumba (talk) 01:43, 26 February 2019 (UTC)
@Bagumba: Hi Bagumba, thank you for your reply. I added more press sources to the article. I normally use sources from colleges/schools for stats only, I have been editing on Wikipedia (mostly in Italian) on and off for more than 11 years now, but I still am kind of a newbie on en.wiki and basketball sources so I might make some mistake. A side note: editing from Italy, I often get the "Not available in your country" message when I click on news articles published in the US, even though I have found out a few ways to read the articles anyway. I hope nobody opens the AFD page about Richardson – we'll see! Thank you again. --Triple 8~enwiki (talk) 11:29, 26 February 2019 (UTC)

WP 1.0 Bot Beta

Hello! Your WikiProject has been selected to participate in the WP 1.0 Bot rewrite beta. This means that, starting in the next few days or weeks, your assessment tables will be updated using code in the new bot, codenamed Lucky. You can read more about this change on the Wikipedia 1.0 Editorial team page. Thanks! audiodude (talk) 05:40, 27 February 2019 (UTC)

Macedonia/North Macedonia

Hello, people. I see there is an edit at the EuroBasket 2021 qualification article that changed all MKDs to NMK. My question is if is it logic to change it in the first and second rounds, when the team played yet as only "Macedonia". Is correct to revert the edits from the two first rounds and let only the NMK since the main qualifiers? The other question is about the second round, as the country was yet named Macedonia in the two first windows and with the new name in the third one. Asturkian (talk) 11:42, 4 March 2019 (UTC)

Jonathan Rodriguez pro career

Does anyone have access to basketball.latinbasket.com? I was going to plug in Jonathan Rodriguez's professional career since no teams are listed in his infobox, but the paywall won't let me see specific career info.

On another note, most of his article looks like a copyright violation. 72.82.244.212 (talk) 01:41, 11 March 2019 (UTC)

You need to give examples of parts that look like copyright violation. After a quick look, it looks fine to me. In addition, after looking at notability guidelines it looks like his page should be PRODed or AFDed since he fails both WP:NCOLLATH and WP:NHOOPS. All the sources are primary and there is no independent coverage. – Sabbatino (talk) 08:43, 11 March 2019 (UTC)

TBT in basketball player articles

The following users, Zdupont18 and Eddiemoran96, as well as this IP, have been adding unsourced and clunky The Basketball Tournament info to many basketball player articles of late, including NBA players. This competition is not a noteworthy competition for professional players in my opinion, especially for NBA players. It's nothing more than an off-season pick-up tournament. What are people's opinions of this competition? Should there be detailed info on TBT in player bios? There is limited independent, reliable sources for TBT and most of the detail added by the above listed users reads as if it is written by a fan or someone affiliated with the brand trying to push it across Wikipedia. It's very possible Zdupont18, Eddiemoran96 and the IP are all the same person, considering all their contributions are written in the exact same way and format. I'd consider these contributions to be no more than WP:SPAM. Thoughts? DaHuzyBru (talk) 04:57, 5 March 2019 (UTC)

I just reverted it from Jordan Adams. First of all, it was already mentioned in the article that he played in TBT. Secondly, stats are WP:UNDUE mostly because it's a minor tournament, and results are trivial short of winning the championship and prize money. Also think WP:NOTDIARY. In Adams' case at least, a brief mention that he was in it seemed notable as he hadn't played in a couple of years, and showed that he was still active (and now in the G League). There was a full article on him in the TBT, which you probably can't say for the rest of the participants, which likely just have a trivial mention that they played in it.—Bagumba (talk) 06:00, 5 March 2019 (UTC)
@Bagumba: This post at User:Eddiemoran96's talk page is quite alarming. This confirms the edits are being directly made with people affiliated with the league (WP:COI). WP:SOCK definitely can't be ruled out despite what the person posting on the talk page claims. DaHuzyBru (talk) 06:39, 5 March 2019 (UTC)
I've pointed both users to Wikipedia's guidline on conflict of interest.—Bagumba (talk) 06:49, 5 March 2019 (UTC)
To be fair, I'll assume they were not aware of our WP:COI guideline. They are welcome here, subject to the advice in the guideline. At any rate, we operate on consensus, so let's see what others think regarding mention of TBT.—Bagumba (talk) 07:59, 5 March 2019 (UTC)

FYI There was a discussion in 2018 at Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Basketball/Archive_13#"The_Basketball_Tournament"_tenures that TBT was not appropriate for the infobox. There was general sentiment that it could be OK for the body of the article, but no details on when it would be due weight for inclusion. Pinging Rikster2, Sabbatino and Bluesangrel, who commented in the earlier discussion.—Bagumba (talk) 03:56, 6 March 2019 (UTC)

Also note in that previous case, it was a AaronTomich14 who was doing mass edits of including TBT in bios.—Bagumba (talk) 03:59, 6 March 2019 (UTC)

I don't have a problem with some mention of TBT in the article if the participation is covered in WP:RS. I am still NOT in favor of including teams/awards/championships in the infobox. I am not in favor of adding a TBT sub-section if sub-sections don't already exist in the article. Rikster2 (talk) 13:25, 6 March 2019 (UTC)

It should not be added to infoboxes since this is not a notable tournament. There could be a mention in prose if there are any reliable sources but it should not have its own section. – Sabbatino (talk) 14:06, 6 March 2019 (UTC)

So it seems mention in a lot of these article is at a minimum unsourced, and then there is a matter of it possibly being WP:UNDUE in some (or possbly many) cases. It seems the WP:BURDEN is on those wanting to keep the material to source it, and the WP:ONUS is also on them to get WP:CONSENSUS for its inclusion.—Bagumba (talk) 12:10, 14 March 2019 (UTC)

It definitely should not be in the infobox. However, I have no problem with it being in the article's body in prose, and under it's own section. I would actually think it needs its own section, because it has nothing to do with college basketball, national team competitions, or any sports club leagues. But if an article has such a section, then they should probably at least provide a source to show that the player actually did play at the tournament.Bluesangrel (talk) 16:51, 17 March 2019 (UTC)

Nomination of Portal:LeBron James for deletion

A discussion is taking place as to whether Portal:LeBron James is suitable for inclusion in Wikipedia according to Wikipedia's policies and guidelines or whether it should be deleted.

The page will be discussed at Wikipedia:Miscellany for deletion/Portal:LeBron James until a consensus is reached, and anyone is welcome to contribute to the discussion. The nomination will explain the policies and guidelines which are of concern. The discussion focuses on high-quality evidence and our policies and guidelines.

Users may edit the page during the discussion, including to improve the page to address concerns raised in the discussion. However, do not remove the deletion notice from the top of the page. North America1000 02:15, 26 March 2019 (UTC)

Category for discussion-Findlay Prep Alumni

Currently being discussed. Best, GPL93 (talk) 16:20, 9 April 2019 (UTC)

Draft:2019 EuroLeague Playoffs

The playoffs of the main European basketball competition are going to start in just seven days and the article is under revision yet. I tried to give more sources to it and other user linked all the matches to their boxscores but, the article is yet under revision. Is there any possibility to accelerate its revision for publishing it as soon as possible? Asturkian (talk) 13:52, 9 April 2019 (UTC)

I don't think no one's gonna AFD that article in its current state, considering this is the playoffs of the European version of the NBA. Howard the Duck (talk) 00:54, 10 April 2019 (UTC)

A new newsletter directory is out!

A new Newsletter directory has been created to replace the old, out-of-date one. If your WikiProject and its taskforces have newsletters (even inactive ones), or if you know of a missing newsletter (including from sister projects like WikiSpecies), please include it in the directory! The template can be a bit tricky, so if you need help, just post the newsletter on the template's talk page and someone will add it for you.

– Sent on behalf of Headbomb. 03:11, 11 April 2019 (UTC)

Major basketball biography userbox question

I've always wondered, why are player numbers only listed after a player retires? Why not during their careers too? Just curious since Wade and Nowitzki just retired today and only now are their player numbers listed. DrewieStewie (talk) 06:05, 11 April 2019 (UTC)

NAIA Men's Basketball Tournaments

Categories Category:NAIA Division I Men's Basketball Tournaments and Category:NAIA Division II Men's Basketball Tournaments are nominated for merge into Category:NAIA Men's Basketball Championship. Feel free to join the discussion. Marcocapelle (talk) 19:36, 27 April 2019 (UTC)

ABCD Camp

Hello everyone, I was wondering if the ABCD Basketball Camp (founded by Sonny Vaccaro) would be notable enough for creation on Wikipedia. It saw many NBA players attending it while in high school (just a few names: LeBron James, Kobe Bryant, Tracy McGrady, Stephon Marbury... the list goes on and on), ESPN frequently covered it with articles about HS recruiting. I feel that the subject is notable enough for an article. What do you think? Thank you in advance for your replies. --Triple 8~enwiki (talk) 08:02, 20 May 2019 (UTC)

I have no feel on this. The high-level, generic answer is that it needs to meet WP:GNG. If you're still not sure, you can follow Wikipedia:Drafts. While it might meet GNG, it's not notable enough to put in bios' infoboxes, but in prose could be OK. Regards.—Bagumba (talk) 09:24, 20 May 2019 (UTC)

Tasmin Mitchell

Hello again. I was researching on Tasmin Mitchell (former LSU player with a career in Europe) and I saw that the article had been cancelled in October 2016, which is confusing for me: WP:NBASKETBALL says "Basketball figures are presumed notable if they: Have appeared in one game as either a player or head coach in [...] Israeli Basketball Premier League.", and Mitchell did, playing two full seasons in Israel. When I had last checked the notability guidelines they also included the VTB United League, another league Mitchell played in, but it's not there anymore – which at the end of the day really does not change much, since the Israeli league should be enough. The VTB League was there in 2016 when the article was deleted, so technically it should not have been deleted anyway, not for Israel but for the VTB League.

So, my question is: if I created the article on Mitchell, do you think it would not be notable? Because the 2016 deletion seems to go against the very guidelines of the basketball articles on Wikipedia. I ask it before starting to work on it, I don't want to spend hours on an article that would be deleted :-P

Thank you in advance for your reply – and if I'm being annoying opening all these threads feel free to let me know, I am used to it.wiki projects, especially the association football one, where they often post similar inquiries before creating articles. --Triple 8~enwiki (talk) 10:49, 23 May 2019 (UTC)

Nomination of Portal:College basketball for deletion

A discussion is taking place as to whether Portal:College basketball is suitable for inclusion in Wikipedia according to Wikipedia's policies and guidelines or whether it should be deleted.

The page will be discussed at Wikipedia:Miscellany for deletion/Portal:College basketball (2nd nomination) until a consensus is reached, and anyone is welcome to contribute to the discussion. The nomination will explain the policies and guidelines which are of concern. The discussion focuses on high-quality evidence and our policies and guidelines.

Users may edit the page during the discussion, including to improve the page to address concerns raised in the discussion. However, do not remove the deletion notice from the top of the page. North America1000 06:18, 9 June 2019 (UTC)

Name of EuroLeague

The official current name of the EuroLeague is spelled as EuroLeague, with a capital L. Shouldn't the edits then be spelled the way the league's current official name is in articles? Some IP editors keep editing it to Euroleague (the old name of the league) for current information. For example, the player is currently in EuroLeague, and in their infobox or intro, it will be changed to be spelled as Euroleague, the old name of the league. Isn't that incorrect?Bluesangrel (talk) 23:19, 24 July 2019 (UTC)

Do WP:RS refer it to EuroLeague or Euroleague? Howard the Duck (talk) 01:21, 25 July 2019 (UTC)
The big sources that are recent basically all use EuroLeague.Bluesangrel (talk) 01:14, 26 July 2019 (UTC)
A simple Google search shows a 60:40 split, with some sources such as Eurohoops using both. This U.S. source goes with Euroleague. Perhaps this isn't as simple as "big sources... basically all use EuroLeague". Howard the Duck (talk) 02:15, 30 July 2019 (UTC)
My generic response is for Wikipedia to generally be consistent and use the format of its own article titles (typically WP:COMMONNAME). If the title is considered incorrect, move it first (or open at WP:RM if controversial).—Bagumba (talk) 07:54, 30 July 2019 (UTC)

Should JBA stats be included in Career Statistics?

Looking at LiAngelo Ball's article I noticed that his stats from the Junior Basketball Association are listed in conjunction with his averages from the Lithuanian league. I know that they shouldn't be averaged together as they are two separate leagues, but should JBA averages be listed in "career statistics" sections at all? Best, GPL93 (talk) 15:48, 31 July 2019 (UTC)

Experienced eyes on an AfD

Hi - I nominated MarJon Beauchamp for deletion on the grounds that he didn't meen WP:NHOOPS; since my nomination, more sources have been added that may take the subject over the line on WP:GNG. I'd be grateful for any editors with experience in basketball articles to weight in at the AfD discussion here and offer their views. Cheers GirthSummit (blether) 19:16, 11 August 2019 (UTC)

Dru Joyce – career assists

Does anyone have a source that verifies how many total assists Dru Joyce had in Germany's Basketball Bundesliga specifically? I want to include that number in the infobox (highlights section) but cannot find a career Bundesliga statistics website that doesn't require a subscription. Thanks. SportsGuy789 (talk) 16:45, 16 August 2019 (UTC)

Tim Andree

Hello, I'm Lucy and I work for Dentsu Aegis Network. As noted on my profile page, I've created a Wikipedia account to represent the company and propose changes to related articles. I'd like to start by sharing a draft article about Tim Andree for editor review. Tim is currently an executive at Dentsu, but was first notable for his professional basketball career. His name is linked at Dentsu Aegis Network, 1983–84 Chicago Bulls season, and Chicago Bulls draft history. Will someone from WikiProject Basketball review the draft to make sure he meets criteria, then take it live? I am confident he is eligible but prefer other editors to review first given my conflict of interest. Thanks! LH Dentsu (talk) 14:16, 5 August 2019 (UTC)

One thing worth clarifying is that Andree never made the Bulls' final roster. He was waived during the preseason. (Logan, Bob. "Theus Gets His Deal; Defensive Test is Next." Chicago Tribune (1963-1996), Oct 22 1983, p. 2. ProQuest. Web. 20 Aug. 2019)
There's a potentially useful article I found in ProQuest from the Detroit Free Press (McCabe, Mick. "TIM ANDREE." Detroit Free Press, May 20 1999, ProQuest. Web. 20 Aug. 2019). That could help to establish notability. Zagalejo^^^ 05:01, 20 August 2019 (UTC)

Nomination of Martin Dixon-Green for deletion

A discussion is taking place as to whether the article Martin Dixon-Green is suitable for inclusion in Wikipedia according to Wikipedia's policies and guidelines or whether it should be deleted.

The article will be discussed at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Martin Dixon-Green until a consensus is reached, and anyone, including you, is welcome to contribute to the discussion. The nomination will explain the policies and guidelines which are of concern. The discussion focuses on high-quality evidence and our policies and guidelines.

Users may edit the article during the discussion, including to improve the article to address concerns raised in the discussion. However, do not remove the article-for-deletion notice from the top of the article. Rikster2 (talk) 13:02, 21 September 2019 (UTC)

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