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July 13

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Template:Rough Draft Studios

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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the template below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the template's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the discussion was keep Plastikspork ―Œ(talk) 01:42, 21 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Template:Rough Draft Studios (talk · history · transclusions · logs · subpages)

Misleading template. In very few cases was Rough Draft the only studio to work on any of these — in fact, most of the shows listed have had several studios. There is no precedent for having a by-studio navbox, and doing so would instantly clutter up any article. (For instance, I know there were at least six or seven studios that worked on shows like Animaniacs — could you imagine if that article had templates for TMS, Wang, Akom, StarToons, etc. gathering on it?) Ten Pound Hammer • (What did I screw up now?) 18:30, 4 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Would it not make more sense to simply remove the things which are not solely related to Rough Draft Studios, or edit the template in a way that makes the studio's involvement clearer? Many of the links contained therein are useful.
Also, not to make the "other stuff exists" argument, but since you did make the "other stuff doesn't exist argument": Template:Pixar Animation Studios, Template:Walt Disney Animation Studios, Template:Radical Axis, Template:Hasbro Studios, Template:Blue Sky Studios, Template:Fleischer Studios...
When I started that template, I made sure there were others already in existence and that I was not doing something without precedent.  Chickenmonkey  19:49, 4 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
The templates you cited are film related, or for shows that uneqivocally have ties to a studio. It's a lot more muddied with Rough Draft since they've only worked on parts of different shows, and have no individual shows they can claim as their "own". Ten Pound Hammer • (What did I screw up now?) 20:31, 4 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Not to be too blunt or rude--that is not my intention--but that is simply inaccurate. Rough Draft Studios has done 100% of the animation for Futurama and the Futurama films, as well as doing all of the animation for series such as The Maxx, Sit Down, Shut Up, and Drawn Together. (Even without mentioning the fact that Rough Draft Studios' Korean studio does ink & paint for virtually every series on television; information that I agree is not appropriate for a useful navbox).
What is more, other templates--namely Template:Blue Sky Studios--include productions where the studio only contributed to the film's animation.
Further, even if all mention of films or television series was removed, the "staff" section of the navbox would still be useful. I understand why you may feel the template needs improvement--and it is frustrating to watch ip editors repeatedly add erroneous information to the template--but I would argue the template should not be deleted.  Chickenmonkey  22:35, 4 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so a clearer consensus may be reached.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Plastikspork ―Œ(talk) 23:48, 13 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

After this discussion began, I went through the template and removed all titles that cannot be verified on Rough Draft Studios' website. To that end, I feel the template is now no longer confusing, in case that matters to whomever ultimately closes this dicussion.  Chickenmonkey  01:13, 14 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the template's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the template below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the template's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the discussion was delete. But, there appears to be some desire to be able to navigate between templates within template space, so I will repurpose this as templatespace navbox. Plastikspork ―Œ(talk) 03:12, 28 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Template:U. S. Network Shows footer (talk · history · transclusions · logs · subpages)

Improper use of navboxes. Breaks all the rules regarding inclusion and transclusion at WP:NAVBOX and WP:NAVBOXES. Not a link to a related article, but to a similar navbox for a different network. Designed to navigate reader out of article space and into template space. We should be looking to update guideline to be explicit about these. --Rob Sinden (talk) 14:42, 4 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

This is not what navboxes are for. They are for linking to similar articles not to other templates of a similar but different subject. A reader should not be directed into template space. --Rob Sinden (talk) 14:48, 4 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
But the intention is clear, I first saw that this is a template space, I think it is appropriate, but I think this template can remove some networks.--Qa003qa003 (talk) 15:00, 4 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
The intention is not clear. A reader expects that a link in a navbox takes them to another article, not out of article namespace and into template namespace, which is not part of the encyclopedia, but part of Wikipedia administration. --Rob Sinden (talk) 15:07, 4 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I see what you're saying, Rob. However, like Qa003, I do think that the functionality is useful. Is there some way we can fix the footer so that it conforms with proper guidelines but also retains most/all of the current usefulness? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 192.188.224.2 (talk) 16:09, 4 July 2013
I think the only way would be if each link directed to "List of shows broadcast by..." articles, but I'm not sure that's completely appropriate either. --Rob Sinden (talk) 18:21, 4 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Linking articles only would be a huge improvement, but the proper way would be to copy the lists of American shows from this bad boy and create a new navbox like this one and add it to all articles linked from it, but not to articles on individual shows. jonkerz ♠talk 18:35, 5 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
That really shouldn't be titled "List of American television shows by broadcaster" because the shows aren't all American; it should be Lists of television shows broadcast in America". Or is Doctor Who now an American show? Rookie Blue and Motive are Canadian but they appear in the list for ABC. That said, having now seen that those lists actually exist i am even more fond of the navboxes because they are lists of current shows and they have "YYYY - present" which is just a bit redundant. delirious & lost ☯ ~hugs~ 09:55, 12 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I see where you're coming from, but even if all the template links could be replaced with article links, and if the criteria for inclusion could be worked out, it's not obvious why individual shows on one network should link lists of shows on other networks. This footer serves the same purpose that a proper navbox like {{Lists of American television shows by broadcaster}} would if created. Would we add that template to articles on individual shows? WP:NAVBOX suggests we should not. The guideline does not say what to do if the same links are added to a footer embedded in another template, but I think the answer should be the same. jonkerz ♠talk 18:42, 5 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I do not understand your analogy.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 15:32, 6 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Rob Sinden: "A reader expects that a link in a navbox takes them to another article, not out of article namespace and into template namespace, which is not part of the encyclopedia, but part of Wikipedia administration."
It is not apart of the stict WP administration "WP:name" are. Other wise having catagories would be problematic as they take you out of the article namespace and should be deleted. Most normal Navboxes link to the template space via the "V T E", so that once again shoot major holes in your argument. How did you come up with what is or is not a readers expection? I would expect as a reader if this navbox doesn't have what I want (or what to head down a different direction) to click quickly to the right one.
jonkerz did you actually read WP:SURPRISE which states: "You should plan your page structure and links so that everything appears reasonable and makes sense. If a link takes readers to somewhere other than where they thought it would, it should at least take them somewhere that makes sense." It make sense to send some one to a similar navbox as the navbox may had to split up do to too many links. Spshu (talk) 19:29, 9 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
The "V T E" are editing tools, not for navigation, much in the same way that each article has a "talk" and an "edit" tab at the top. They cannot be considered in your argument. As far as category links in the navbox go, personally I'm against them, as any page on the template is most likely (or at least should be) in the category, so the category will be linked at the bottom of each page anyway. I'm not going to fight for removal of those mind you. As far as a "similar" navbox goes, the argument is much like saying that we should have reciprocal links for all the navboxes for all the towns in Britain. They are about completely different subjects: CBS is not the same as ABC, etc., much the same way that {{Brighton}} is not the same as {{Manchester}}, they just have similar attributes. Remember, navboxes are not articles and should not be treated as substitutes for articles. --Rob Sinden (talk) 08:46, 10 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Delete – as it produces a confusing mixture of links to article and template space. Per Frietjes, a better solution is to replace with a "navbox of navboxes" (see for example {{Universe navboxes}}) containing links restricted to template space. Boghog (talk) 13:30, 10 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Yuk!!! That's awful, and completely unnecessary - should be covered by Category:Universe navboxes. But at least it can't be seen from article space. --Rob Sinden (talk) 13:33, 10 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep - rules, fools, drools... i find these evil, nasty, vile creatures to be quite useful when i am just browsing reading up on whatever show or actor or actress caught my fancy that moment. So what if the links take me to templates! The first time i encountered it i wasn't so stupid that i couldn't understand what the link was to. I clicked on it because i wanted exactly what the template was offering. Yes, there are lists for most every American channel and if i could i surely would delete each and every one of them as unnecessary, cumbersome, and redundantly excessive. ;) These little navboxes are quite uesful and i honestly can't understand why people want to get rid of the bridges that connect all of them. I want to build them for other countries! delirious & lost ☯ ~hugs~ 09:55, 12 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so a clearer consensus may be reached.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Plastikspork ―Œ(talk) 23:45, 13 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
American TV industry developed, some like to watch American TV series Friends certainly are covered five major U.S. television networks, the role of this template also manifested.--Qa003qa003 (talk) 10:28, 17 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Although this isn't ideal, it would be better than the current situation. And each list of shows would have the desired template at the bottom, so no-one loses out, addressing the ease of navigation concerns of some of the "keep" !voters. --Rob Sinden (talk) 07:50, 19 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Provisional keep. Although calling another navbox isn't a good solution, it is useful to have some means of getting to the programming of other networks. Until a better solution can be devised, getting rid of this nav aid reduces ease of navigation and so should be avoided. -- spin|control 07:08, 19 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete per the nominator. Banhtrung1 (talk) 06:38, 22 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep Easy, cool to see programming from over the years. 190.213.37.19 (talk) 15:52, 22 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete, the premise that readers need a collapsed navbox buried at the bottom of an article to find their way around is flawed. Usage of this template is tiny. People don't need a way of getting to the programming of other networks; nobody even thinks about networks anymore. People are capable of figuring out how to search for TV shows. Abductive (reasoning) 02:49, 23 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete per nominator24.231.78.74 (talk) 09:13, 23 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete per nom and also because it's not remotely relevant to the reader. No reader of a random tv show article (which is where these are found) is going to find that the best way to navigate to some other random tv show on a different network is by clicking to a linked template etc etc... These links are just too remote to be useful. If a reader of The Simpsons, for example, is interested in programming on ABC, he'll just type "ABC" into the search box. Calliopejen1 (talk) 17:37, 23 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep: This template is completely relevant. It shows all curent and former programs by television network. It provides easy links to the shows. The only policy I'm citing is ignore all rules! This template improves the encyclopedia, so it should not be deleted. Think about this: It is too much hassle to remove this templates from the hundreds of articles where they are transcluded. Keep it! ~~JHUbal27 03:27, 25 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the template's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Template:Infobox U.S. county 2TZ

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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the template below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the template's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the discussion was delete, technical issues are being resolved on the talk page. Plastikspork ―Œ(talk) 22:50, 28 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Template:Infobox U.S. county 2TZ (talk · history · transclusions · logs · subpages)

Fork of {{Infobox U.S. county}} to accommodate dual timezones. The functionality should be merged into the parent template. Only two transclusions. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 21:47, 13 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the template's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Template:Infobox N.J. Cabinet

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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the template below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the template's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the discussion was no consensus Plastikspork ―Œ(talk) 22:51, 28 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Template:Infobox N.J. Cabinet (talk · history · transclusions · logs · subpages)

Redundant to some more specific legislature template. Only two transclusions. We don't need a separate cabinet infobox for each state. Note: {{Infobox Jon Corzine cabinet}} and {{Infobox Chris Christie cabinet}} are hard-coded instances of this template. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 21:04, 13 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the template's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Template:Infobox Mass Town Govt

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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the template below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the template's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the discussion was delete Plastikspork ―Œ(talk) 22:51, 28 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Template:Infobox Mass Town Govt (talk · history · transclusions · logs · subpages)

Redundant to some more specific legislature template. Includes a level of trivia ("Register of Deeds" & "Register of Probate", etc., for a town) that probably shouldn't be in articles. Only 16 transclusions. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 20:43, 13 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the template's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Template:WikiProject Massachusetts/old template1

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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the template below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the template's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the discussion was delete Plastikspork ―Œ(talk) 22:51, 28 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Template:WikiProject Massachusetts/old template1 (talk · history · transclusions · logs · subpages)

Unused. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 20:38, 13 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the template's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Template:Infobox Hawaiian island

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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the template below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the template's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the discussion was delete after replacement. Plastikspork ―Œ(talk) 14:17, 2 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Template:Infobox Hawaiian island (talk · history · transclusions · logs · subpages)

Redundant to {{Infobox island}}. Only twelve transclusions. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 20:35, 13 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

 Question: If we delete, what should we do about the color and flower parameters? —hike395 (talk) 05:39, 14 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
use {{Infobox state symbols}}? Frietjes (talk) 13:53, 14 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Problem is: these are symbols of the islands, not of the state. {{infobox state symbols}} says "state" explicitly. Should we remove that? —hike395 (talk) 18:03, 14 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
just change state to region and that problem is solved. Frietjes (talk) 15:00, 26 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I went ahead and modified {{Infobox state symbols}}, in case this deletion succeeds. See User:Hike395/Lanaibox for an example of using {{Infobox island}} and {{Infobox state symbols}} to describe Lanai. It looks perfectly functional to me. —hike395 (talk) 11:11, 2 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
delete after replacement with {{infobox island}} and {{infobox state symbols}}. Frietjes (talk) 13:53, 14 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • keep Squidville1 (talk) 23:24, 15 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep Why does this need to be gotten rid of? It's not redundant enough to be considered a duplication in my mind, and the transclusion count has nothing to do with whether or not a template should be kept. It's not like every template is going to have 12 gajillion transclusions, or even 100 transclusions. Ks0stm (T•C•G•E) 14:31, 17 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
    • The "need" is to reduce the number of similar templates, so that when we make future changes (such as basing infoboxes on {[tl|Infobox}} or adding an |alt= parameter, there is less work to do rolling it our to every template, and none get missed. What makes you think this template is needed? In what way are Hawaiian islands different to those in the rest of the World? Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 16:03, 17 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
      • It's not so much that I think the Hawaiian islands are wholesale different, I just feel that the parameters like color, flower, and a few new ones that could be added (Hawaiian county, associated volcanoes, etc) would seem oddly specific in a generic infobox like the island infobox. I've always viewed such generic infoboxes as being last resorts when there are no suitable more specific infoboxes. In this instance, the Hawaiian island infobox is the more suitable one to use on articles about the Hawaiian islands. Ks0stm (T•C•G•E) 10:22, 18 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete we can't have a separate template for every archipelago in the world. Limited use and redundant to a better template.--eh bien mon prince (talk) 17:39, 23 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • It's difficult. When you look at other islands, for example, the Isle of Wight it is defined as an English county, rather like Hampshire. But, when you look at say one of the South Georgia islands, you just have an infobox named "islands". It is true that this Hawi'ian island is similar legally to this island in South Georgia, but at the same time, different in the sense of legality. 81.158.32.181 (talk) 18:00, 24 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete per nom. Banhtrung1 (talk) 07:34, 29 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete per Underlying lk. We really need to reduce the number of similar templates, and the differences between this and the normal island infobox are small and insignificant enough that they need not occupy our concern. Colors and flowers aren't really so crucial that they absolutely must appear in the infobox, especially since islands without specific governmental existence can't easily have their own official anythings. Nyttend (talk) 21:58, 31 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete: can be covered by {{Infobox island}}, with a suitable tweaked {{Infobox state symbols}}. Nyttend: each major island is its own county, which is governmental. —hike395 (talk) 10:11, 2 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the template's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Template:Infobox province or territory of Canada

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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the template below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the template's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the discussion was no consensus to delete. There may be some consensus to rewrite it as a wrapper template, but that can be hashed out on the talk page. Plastikspork ―Œ(talk) 23:55, 28 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Template:Infobox province or territory of Canada (talk · history · transclusions · logs · subpages)

Redundant to {{Infobox settlement}}. Only 17 transclusions. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 20:24, 13 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

So? I'm not allowed to point to them and say that I still agree with the logic? --Skeezix1000 (talk) 13:08, 23 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Of course. I was questioning the relevance of the point. --Skeezix1000 (talk) 15:35, 24 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Seriously, calm down. Stop treating everyone that disagrees with you as an idiot. Please go read WP:AGF and WP:CIVILITY. I think you also need to read WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS, an essay which quite clearly states that entire comments should not be dismissed because they reference a comparable. Here you're saying that the template is redundant - it's a valid argument to say that it isn't redundant when clearly there is no existing consensus that infobox settlement should handle all such functions, given the existence of other templates similar to this one. As far as I am concerned, it is inappropriate to tackle the issue of redundancy in a piecemeal fashion such as this. --Skeezix1000 (talk) 13:08, 23 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
      • It merely seems that you are not treating the rationale of the "keep" !voters as legitimate, not that the "keep" !voters don't have rationale. Airplaneman ✈ 02:57, 21 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
        • On the contrary; I've addressed ,them above. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 19:41, 21 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
        • I am - and was - perfectly calm, and perfectly civil; and assume good faith everywhere it's appropriate to do so. I haven't treated anyone as an idiot. What functions in this template can infobox settlement not handle? Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 21:58, 23 July 2013 (UTC) [Note that Airplaneman's comment appears malformed because it follows the malformed indentation of Skeezix1000's comment; see source. My comment appears out of content, because Skeezix1000 insists on moving his comment, to which I reply, back out of chronological sequence. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 18:23, 24 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
          • Responding with "for fuck's sake" and then resorting to unconstructive insults of the other person's opinion is the opposite of calm and civil. There are no exceptions to the policies requiring that we treat others with respect because you decide it is not "appropriate to do so". If you say that it was not your intention to be uncivil, however, I accept that.

            Handling functions is not the issue. There is no demonstrated need or advantage whatsoever to delete this template. If you think infobox settlement should be the default template, this is neither the right forum nor the right means to achieve that. --Skeezix1000 (talk) 12:38, 24 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

            • [I've restored your comment to the correct chronological sequence; and fixed the indenting, in order that it meet our own and accessibility guidelines] My response was not what you claim, but "Oh, FFS!". I made no insults, unconstructive or otherwise; and claim no exceptions to our policies. I did not say that "it was not my intention to be uncivil"; I pointed out that "I was not uncivil". the advantage of removing redundant templates such as this is that it reduces the future maintenance overhead. It was you who raised the straw man of the unnamed functions supposedly not handled by infobox settlement. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 14:13, 24 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Do not move my comments to suit your personal preferences. The location and indentation is consistent with Wikipedia requirements and practices.

If you are honestly saying that "FFS", and that your derision of Truflip99's contribution, are not uncivil, then there seems to be very little point in engaging in any discussion of civility with you. The use of acronyms does not allow you to sidestep WP:CIVILITY.

I never said that there were functions not handled by infobox settlement. I said there was no consensus that it must handle all such functions. And what future maintenance overhead problem are you talking about? Can you point to the specific problems and burdens that have been encountered? Otherwise, this is a solution is search of a problem. Consolidating the templates is likely to create more problems since general changes to the main template may very well create problems at the micro level when such changes do not take into issues related to specific jurisdictions - that is not a problem if we maintain the situation as is. Thanks. --Skeezix1000 (talk) 15:35, 24 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Sigh. You violate WP:AGF and WP:CIVIL, move comments unnecessarily, respond out of order, pepper the disussions with unhelpful and inaccurate tiny comments. Please let me know when you are willing to discuss this constructively. Thanks. --Skeezix1000 (talk) 19:05, 24 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment. Could one of the delete votes create an example of what Infobox settlement would look like with all the information that one of the uses of this infobox has? Thanks, 117Avenue (talk) 05:28, 21 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete, Infobox settlement can handle it. 117Avenue (talk) 04:57, 22 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete, better one general template, one maintenance (in music: not Bruckner symphony, but {{infobox musical composition}}) --Gerda Arendt (talk) 19:09, 24 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep Obviously the project took non content editors need to stop making work and wasting the time of editors.Moxy (talk) 14:24, 25 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
    • That someone took great care in making the template may well be obvious; but it is not obvious that the template is necessary, or that the more generic template cannot be equally useful. You make no case for that. Also, I don't know which "non content editors" you have in mind - please elaborate - but I don't believe there's any Wikipedia policy which prohibits the from commenting here, or that devalues their comments, Perhaps you could indicate which you have in mind? Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 20:29, 25 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
      • Sorry will be more accurate in my assessment - there is absolutely noting wrong with these templates that where made by consensus by a large project to conform to there Canadian Manual of Style. I think better questions then is it a bit redundant are - Why is there a need to disrupt all these articles and upset the editors involved with making and maintaining them when nothing is apparently wrong? What all should ask themselves before nominating old templates is........ the template in question not violating any policy or guideline? - Has it been stable in its current form for a long time? - does it have special parameters that may fall under MOS:TIES? If the answer is yes to all of them people need to ask themselves if nominating them for deletion would be disruptive and considered "reasonable" or "acceptable" by an objective third person. -- Moxy (talk) 22:56, 25 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
        • Given that we have a number of people here saying "delete"; and given the vast number of similarly redundant templates which have been deleted or merged following such debates over the last number of years, not least in order to reduce the unecesary maintenance overhead, and the cognitive burden on editors, the answer to your final question is clearly that they would be considered reasonable. However, this is not the place for such debate (and you still make no case for why this template is needed); though you are of course welcome to raise an RfC or refer the matter to ANI. Did you miss my question about "non content editors"? Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 23:20, 25 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
          • Will explain even more - those of us that contribute to project(s) and content work hard on making sure templates conform to our guidelines. We also do this so that editors are not overwhelmed with parameters that may not apply to certain pages. We are here to make things easier not harder. As has been explained above some templates are made to conform to MOS:TIES (like this one) - Senate seats - House seats - Confederation - etc. Think of our editors over back room maintenance always please - what would be easier to edit a template with a few parameters to fill in or one with hundreds of parameter that dont even apply. Good-faith, productive and accurate templates made by project consensus should not be deleted because some think its best to have just one main template with thousands of parameters. Template:Country topics is a great example - all was merged - then slow over time project after project simply made there own again.Moxy (talk) 23:59, 25 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment: Moxy has raised excellent points (although I disagree with the one comment on non-content editors, since every contributor, whether they create articles or check the copyright status of images, is entitled to speak their mind in discussions such as this). This template is the work of WPCANADA, and there is no policy or guideline that it offends. Its parameters are applicable to the articles in question. It can easily and efficiently be revised as needed to suit the articles it serves, in a manner that could never be achieved with a template that serves 1000s+++ of article. If deleted, we will undoubtedly be recreating this template down the road.

    In particular, there is no reason to be deleting a template that works well and that was developed by the relevant Wikiproject when we have been given no good rationale for deletion. We have unsubstantiated claims of "unecesary maintenance overhead", yet despite a request to do so nobody has been able to point to any examples of the burdensome maintenance associated with this template. In fact, the burdens are more likely to increase with its deletion, for the reasons set out by Moxy and myself above. The claim that deletion will reduce the "cognitive burden on editors" is simply strange. Again, in the unlikely event "cognitive burden" is even an issue, the opposite is likely true, given that the proposal is to delete a purpose-made template with a massive general template with way more templates than are needed for these articles. That leaves us with the weak claim of redundancy. We are told templates such as this are redundant, yet Wikipedia has a wide range of similar templates for every type of state, province and oblast, demonstrating that there is no consensus whatsoever that Infobox Settlement needs to be the default template for these types of articles.

    This template is successfully being used in the articles for which it was designed, without any problems and without any record of overwhelming the cognitive limits of the editors involved, so it is clearly not redundant. As stated above, if templates such as this are to be all replaced with Infobox Settlement, then it is inappropriate to be attempting to do so in one-off deletion requests such as this. The proper approach would be to nominate all similar templates for deletion, and have a centralized discussion. Otherwise, there is no need to single out the one template that is serving articles on Canada's provinces and territories quite well. This deletion request is an ill-conceived attempt to impose a top-down solution where no problem existed in the first place. Skeezix1000 (talk) 18:22, 27 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

    • You say the template offends "no policy or guideline", but offer - and can offer - no policy or guideline offended by this proposal, nor requiring the mass deletion nomination on which you insist. Redundancy is not a weak rationale for the deletion, or conversion to wrappers, of templates such as this, which is why most of the "similar templates for every type of state, province and oblast" to which you refer are already wrappers, or redirects from deleted templates (and hence the template under discussion has not been "singled out"). You further - like many above - offer no cogent rationale as to why this template is needed. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 18:44, 27 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep. I don't see how an infobox used for the major administrative divisions of a major western power is something that can be considered for deletion. Has Wikipedia really declared Canada to be non-notable? --Kazinsal (talk) 05:44, 28 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
    • Again: this is not a pissing contest about the notability of the subject, which has not been questioned at all; but a discussion of the redundancy of the template; and the suitability of the prosed replacement. Would you care to address that? Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 13:03, 28 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
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Template:Infobox Canadian leadership election

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The result of the discussion was no consensus, feel free to continue any refactoring/wrapper discussion on the talk page. Plastikspork ―Œ(talk) 03:07, 17 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Template:Infobox Canadian leadership election (talk · history · transclusions · logs · subpages)

Redundant to {{Infobox election}}. Only 69 transclusions. Maybe should be a wrapper? Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 20:16, 13 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Canada-related deletion discussions. Graham11 (talk) 23:42, 27 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep. It isn't the same at all. Infobox election doesn't have resigning leader, ballots, number of candidates, entrance fee, spending limit, or a navbox. 117Avenue (talk) 18:02, 19 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete. It makes sense to have results in the infobox and to have an infobox more consistent with the rest of Wikipedia. Unlike what has been suggested, there appears to be a parameter for the previous leader in {{Infobox election}} (before_election). Infoboxes don't normally have a full navbox and I don't see the necessity to link to more than the previous and the following election. The number of ballots and candidates can be inferred from the results in the infobox. That only leaves missing parameters for the entrance fee and the spending limit. I don't think that information is sufficiently crucial to be in the infobox, but if others disagree, surely it can be incorporated into {{Infobox election}}. Graham11 (talk) 19:25, 23 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep. - stop wasting editors time - cant you see how much time and effort went into making these -- Moxy (talk) 14:26, 25 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete per nom. Banhtrung1 (talk) 07:35, 29 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep. It's much easier for the reader to get a quick understanding of the leadership election. Isn't Wikipedia about giving free information in the most useful and informative way possible? If someone has another proposal, that is better and more helpful to the average reader, I'm all for deleting this one and creating a new one. However, no one has stepped forward (yet), and I am perfectly fine with this template, so don't count on me to make one. Keep this for the reader. It's quick, simple and informative. FRE1991DDIE (talk) 17:10, 9 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
    • The proposal is to make this template a wrapper for {{Infobox election}}.; or to replace instances of it with that template, so there is no need for anyone to write a new template, and you do not say how the nominated template might be "easier" for readers to understand than either of the proposed outcomes. That said, this nomination is overdue for closure. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 21:25, 9 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment Maybe you can show how a Canadian leadership race wrapper would work. Right now I don't have enough information to see how this would work. Can you point me to an example? Suttungr (talk) 17:48, 12 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
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Template:Infobox Northwest Territories government departments

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The result of the discussion was merge with {{Infobox Canadian government department}}. Plastikspork ―Œ(talk) 03:10, 17 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Template:Infobox Northwest Territories government departments (talk · history · transclusions · logs · subpages)

Redundant, most likely to {{Infobox organisation}}. Single use. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 20:09, 13 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

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Template:Infobox Ottawa ward

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The result of the discussion was delete Plastikspork ―Œ(talk) 03:12, 17 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Template:Infobox Ottawa ward (talk · history · transclusions · logs · subpages)

Redundant to {{Infobox settlement}}. Only 23 transclusions. We don't need a ward infobox for every city. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 20:06, 13 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

So just to be clear - someone will replace the template all over and at the same time add all the language parameters to the huge template - is this correct? -- Moxy (talk) 15:58, 28 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Yes. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 16:24, 28 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
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Template:Infobox peer

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The result of the discussion was no consensus Plastikspork ―Œ(talk) 04:03, 29 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Template:Infobox peer (talk · history · transclusions · logs · subpages)

Redundant to {{Infobox person}}, into which the very few different parameters can be merged. Could be a redirect. Fewer than 350 transclusions. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 13:45, 13 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

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Template:Infobox Safavid shahanshah

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The result of the discussion was delete Plastikspork ―Œ(talk) 03:04, 17 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Template:Infobox Safavid shahanshah (talk · history · transclusions · logs · subpages)

Redundant to one of {{Infobox noble}}, {{Infobox royalty}}, {{Infobox monarch}}, {{Infobox officeholder}}, or {{Infobox person}}. Single-use. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 13:41, 13 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

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Template:Infobox Sassanid shahanshah

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The result of the discussion was delete Plastikspork ―Œ(talk) 03:03, 17 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Template:Infobox Sassanid shahanshah (talk · history · transclusions · logs · subpages)

Redundant to one of {{Infobox noble}}, {{Infobox royalty}}, {{Infobox monarch}}, {{Infobox officeholder}}, or {{Infobox person}}. Single-use. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 13:39, 13 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

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Template:Infobox former monarchy

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The result of the discussion was no consensus Plastikspork ―Œ(talk) 04:04, 29 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Template:Infobox former monarchy (talk · history · transclusions · logs · subpages) - 89 transclusions
Template:Infobox monarchy (talk · history · transclusions · logs · subpages) - 51 transclusions

Propose merging Template:Infobox former monarchy with Template:Infobox monarchy.
Merge into {{Infobox monarchy}}. No need for two templates. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 13:28, 13 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

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Template:Infobox royal house

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The result of the discussion was Withdrawn by nominator to allow nomination for the suggested merge. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 11:24, 31 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]


Template:Infobox royal house (talk · history · transclusions · logs · subpages) - 289 transclusions

Redundant to {{Infobox noble house}}, into which any necessary parameters should be merged. A redirect can be kept if the name distinction is important. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 13:16, 13 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Template:Dubrovnik Noble House

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The result of the discussion was delete Plastikspork ―Œ(talk) 00:06, 29 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Template:Dubrovnik Noble House (talk · history · transclusions · logs · subpages)

Redundant to {{Infobox noble house}}. Only ten transclusions. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 13:13, 13 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

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Template:Infobox member of the Knesset

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The result of the discussion was no consensus Plastikspork ―Œ(talk) 00:06, 29 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Template:Infobox member of the Knesset (talk · history · transclusions · logs · subpages)

Redundant to {{Infobox officeholder}}. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 12:42, 13 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

  • Strong keep It's not redundant - it's a completely different template. Israeli politics is different to that of many countries in that politicians frequently change parties and ministerial portfolios. The reason a separate template was created was to keep them of a manageable size, and to display the information more clearly. If you look at Binyamin Ben-Eliezer, you can see that it provides a way of clearly representing the five different parties he has represented in the Knesset and the eight ministerial portfolios he has held (and many Israeli politicians have held 8+ portfolios or been members of more parties - Tzipi Livni, Haim-Moshe Shapira and Akiva Nof to name but a few off the top of my head. Infobox officeholder is not able to do this as efficiently, particularly with regards to political parties. We have already had a TfD discussion for {{Infobox Israeli Election}} that resulted in a unanimous keep vote (6–0) because it is accepted that Israeli politics has some features which standard infoboxes cannot cope with. Number 57 12:52, 13 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep—not redundant to the given template. It has many unique facets which would be impossible to reproduce with the current officeholder template, and it would be quite difficult (and unnecessary) to change the officeholder template for MKs. IMO this is a great example of "if it ain't broke, don't fix it". —Ynhockey (Talk) 13:42, 13 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
The template is tailored specifically for MKs, so it is able to display certain characteristics in a concise manner, showing only the details relevant to the MK in the most informative but at the same time concise way possible. For example, it lists all the parliaments in which a certain MK was in in one line, the parties they represented in subsequent lines with all the respective years, and the same goes for ministerial positions. This is really all the relevant information that is needed. Compare for example this infobox with this one—both about foreign ministers. They both have approximately the same amount of useful information (I would argue the former has more, for example it's much easier to see when Lieberman was an MK), only Lieberman's infobox is tiny compared to Hague's, despite the fact that Lieberman held more ministerial positions. On the other hand, you can't apply the same formatting to other officeholders because in certain countries (e.g. presidential systems) it might work differently, and in some countries parliaments are designated differently from others. It's funny that this should come up now, because there was a recent op-ed in the Signpost about this very issue. —Ynhockey (Talk) 22:29, 13 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment Andy, if you can show how the officeholder template can incorporate the special issues of the Knesset one, then this infobox would be redundant. Until then, keep. --Shuki (talk) 22:17, 13 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
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Template:Infobox royalty

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The result of the discussion was merge all into Template:Infobox royalty.

I have reviewed the discussion, and I find that there is a consensus in favor of merging these templates.

This merger was proposed by Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing) and supported by Constantine, M.O.X, Nyttend, Thatpopularguy123, Aua, Opera hat, Justlettersandnumbers, Enok, Zoupan, Renata, Rursus, OwenBlacker, Moxy, CapitalR, Schaea, Scott Martin, Newjerseyliz, Dr. Blofeld, Cold Season, and Dralwik; a total of 21 editors.

Timmyshin's comment also appears to be supportive of the proposed merge. Pseudonymous Rex supported at least a partial merge, and expressed no opposition to the proposed full merge. Srnec proposed to "Delete 'em all", which I did not count as a vote on the merge proposition at all, but is certainly not an endorsement of the status quo.

This proposal was opposed by NewFranco, MichiganCharms (who only supported merging the Chinese Emperors into the monarch infobox), The Emperor's New Spy (provisionally opposed), xensyria, Blurpeace, Nford24, Animefreak234, BabbaQ, Lecen, Knowledgekid87, KAVEBEAR, Imladros, Tim Alderson, Tucoxn, a total of 14 registered editors, and five anonymous IPs, 142.134.147.211, 174.91.69.179, 174.95.191.139, 174.95.188.8, 90.218.212.117. While IP's are allowed to present their opinions, their votes are typically given less weight because they are less likely to be familiar with the policies and procedures of this project. In this case, the IP voters tended to offer at best abbreviated objections, or objections that did not address the merge as proposed.

I leave it to the proposing and supporting editors to actually carry out the merger and cleanup of these templates. bd2412 T 17:34, 16 August 2013 (UTC)

Template:Infobox monarch (talk · history · transclusions · logs · subpages) - 2618 transclusions
Template:Infobox Chinese emperor (talk · history · transclusions · logs · subpages) - 75 transclusions
Template:Chinese Emperor (talk · history · transclusions · logs · subpages) - 105 transclusions
Template:Infobox royalty (talk · history · transclusions · logs · subpages) - 7591 transclusions

Propose merging the above.

Redundant to each other. "Infobox royal person" would be a better name; with redirects. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 12:33, 13 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

If you have no reason to support or oppose, you should be in favour of the merger, as maintaining one template is easier than maintaining three, all other things being equal.--eh bien mon prince (talk) 21:40, 23 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Why would you even strongly oppose if you have no reason? Thatpopularguy123 (talk) 08:12, 26 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
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Template:Infobox European political youth organisation

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The result of the discussion was delete Plastikspork ―Œ(talk) 00:05, 29 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Template:Infobox European political youth organisation (talk · history · transclusions · logs · subpages)

Redundant to {{Infobox organisation}}. Only nine transclusions. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 12:24, 13 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

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Template:Parliament of Ireland former constituency infobox

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The result of the discussion was delete Plastikspork ―Œ(talk) 00:05, 29 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Template:Parliament of Ireland former constituency infobox (talk · history · transclusions · logs · subpages) - 150 transclusions

Redundant to {{Infobox constituency}}. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 12:21, 13 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

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Template:Infobox Bangladesh constituency

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The result of the discussion was delete Plastikspork ―Œ(talk) 00:05, 29 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Template:Infobox Bangladesh constituency (talk · history · transclusions · logs · subpages)

Redundant to {{Infobox constituency}}. Single use. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 12:19, 13 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

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Template:The Lodger

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The result of the discussion was relisted on WP:Templates for discussion/Log/2013 August 17. Plastikspork ―Œ(talk) 03:02, 17 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

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South American Youth Championship

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The result of the discussion was delete. Consensus has been reached. Ymblanter (talk) 07:03, 22 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

This is youth competition. Its navboxes are unnecessary. We should delete them, like here. Banhtrung1 (talk) 06:33, 13 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Template:Argentina squad 2013 South American Youth Championship (talk · history · transclusions · logs · subpages)
Template:Argentina squad 1997 South American Youth Championship (talk · history · transclusions · logs · subpages)
Template:Argentina squad 1999 South American Youth Championship (talk · history · transclusions · logs · subpages)
Template:Argentina squad 2009 South American Youth Championship (talk · history · transclusions · logs · subpages)
Template:Bolivia Squad 2009 South American Youth Championship (talk · history · transclusions · logs · subpages)
Template:Uruguay squad 2003 South American Youth Championship (talk · history · transclusions · logs · subpages)
Template:Paraguay Squad 1999 South American Youth Championship (talk · history · transclusions · logs · subpages)
Template:Paraguay Squad 2007 South American Youth Championship (talk · history · transclusions · logs · subpages)
Template:Paraguay Squad 2011 South American Youth Championship (talk · history · transclusions · logs · subpages)
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AFF Suzuki Cup

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The result of the discussion was delete Plastikspork ―Œ(talk) 00:01, 29 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

This is regional tournament. So navboxes should be deleted, like here and here.

Banhtrung1 (talk) 09:47, 13 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Template:Laos squad 2010 AFF Suzuki Cup (talk · history · transclusions · logs · subpages)
Template:Laos squad 2012 AFF Suzuki Cup (talk · history · transclusions · logs · subpages)
Template:Thailand Squad 1996 Tiger Cup (talk · history · transclusions · logs · subpages)
Template:Thailand squad 2000 Tiger Cup (talk · history · transclusions · logs · subpages)
Template:Thailand squad 2002 Tiger Cup (talk · history · transclusions · logs · subpages)
Template:Thailand squad 2008 AFF Suzuki Cup (talk · history · transclusions · logs · subpages)
Template:Thailand squad 2010 AFF Suzuki Cup (talk · history · transclusions · logs · subpages)
Template:Thailand squad 2012 AFF Suzuki Cup (talk · history · transclusions · logs · subpages)
Template:Cambodia squad 2008 AFF Suzuki Cup (talk · history · transclusions · logs · subpages)
Template:Philippines squad 2010 AFF Suzuki Cup (talk · history · transclusions · logs · subpages)
Template:Philippines squad 2012 AFF Suzuki Cup (talk · history · transclusions · logs · subpages)
Template:Malaysia squad 2008 AFF Suzuki Cup (talk · history · transclusions · logs · subpages)
Template:Malaysia squad 2010 AFF Suzuki Cup (talk · history · transclusions · logs · subpages)
Template:Malaysia squad 2012 AFF Suzuki Cup (talk · history · transclusions · logs · subpages)
Template:Indonesia squad 2008 AFF Suzuki Cup (talk · history · transclusions · logs · subpages)
Template:Indonesia squad 2010 AFF Suzuki Cup (talk · history · transclusions · logs · subpages)
Template:Indonesia squad 2012 AFF Suzuki Cup (talk · history · transclusions · logs · subpages)
Template:Myanmar squad 2008 AFF Suzuki Cup (talk · history · transclusions · logs · subpages)
Template:Myanmar squad 2010 AFF Suzuki Cup (talk · history · transclusions · logs · subpages)
Template:Myanmar squad 2012 AFF Suzuki Cup (talk · history · transclusions · logs · subpages)
Template:Singapore squad 2008 AFF Suzuki Cup (talk · history · transclusions · logs · subpages)
Template:Singapore squad 2010 AFF Suzuki Cup (talk · history · transclusions · logs · subpages)
Template:Singapore squad 2012 AFF Suzuki Cup (talk · history · transclusions · logs · subpages)
Template:Vietnam squad 2008 AFF Suzuki Cup (talk · history · transclusions · logs · subpages)
Template:Vietnam squad 2010 AFF Suzuki Cup (talk · history · transclusions · logs · subpages)
Template:Vietnam squad 2012 AFF Suzuki Cup (talk · history · transclusions · logs · subpages)
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