Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2016 September 11

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September 11

Italian insult

I'm watching the show Gomorrah. In the second episode there's an exchange between the Don and an underling. The Don says something like "what are you the boss now?" and the underling says "no", and then the Don says (English subtitles) "then shut up, you Malamò". What's a Malamò?--Fuhghettaboutit (talk) 01:54, 11 September 2016 (UTC)

Forget it. It's the character's name. He said with such spite it rang as an insult.--Fuhghettaboutit (talk) 02:25, 11 September 2016 (UTC)

So was he actually saying, "Shut up you, Malamò"? ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 02:57, 11 September 2016 (UTC)

I was paraphrasing because I wasn't watching it in a way so that I could easily rewind, though I had memorized the spelling and ò diacritic. Now that I know it was the character's name (because I watched the next episode) it's more likely I got it slightly wrong and the subtitled line was "then shut up, Malamò".--Fuhghettaboutit (talk) 12:13, 11 September 2016 (UTC)

The is falling!

Google Ngram results for "the" show a decline in its usage between 1870 and 2008. Is ordinary usage of "the" falling (and if so, do we have any idea why?), or is this because of sampling issues or something else unrelated to actual usage (e.g. Google has scanned more non-English books published in 2008 than in 1870), or do we have no real way to decide? Nyttend (talk) 13:51, 11 September 2016 (UTC)

As I note in the following Q, use of the articles "a" and "the" seems to be less common in British English. If this is change since 1870, then that might explain it. Also note that the informal communications of email and now various forms of texting tend to omit any words that aren't critical, such as "the". StuRat (talk) 16:02, 11 September 2016 (UTC)

See Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2008 December 15#Use of "the" at the delicatessen (December 2008).

—Wavelength (talk) 16:32, 11 September 2016 (UTC)

A 2015 Guardian article notes the same observation that you have made, and provides examples from State of the Union addresses by George Washington in 1790 (Eleven "the"s in 90 words) and Barack Obama in 2014 (five "the"s in 89 words). The article seems to say that one can only speculate as to the reason behind this decline, but suggests that "one reason for the change could be “decreasing formality of style”, as writing becomes more like speech." There's also a link to further discussion of the subject on Mark Liberman's Language Log blog. - Cucumber Mike (talk) 06:39, 12 September 2016 (UTC)

BrEng vs. AmEng

Apart from words like boot/trunk, foyer/lobby, lift/elevator, and -or endings as -our/ -ize as -ise. Which are other differences between BrEng and AmEng? I know that British mostly say "Have you a pen?" instead of "Do you have a pen?". They mostly use shall instead of will for the first personv and that full stops are only used when the last letter of the full word is not used in the abbreviation. I have heard something about British preferring present perfect tense over simple past tense. Is that correct? Any other examples or comments will be highly appreciated. Thanks. Miss Bono ^{[hello, hello!]} 14:36, 11 September 2016 (UTC)

Pluralization of collective nouns? We Yanks say, "Congress is doing nothing"; the Brits say, 'Parliament are doing nothing'. --Orange Mike | Talk 15:11, 11 September 2016 (UTC)

Well, that's in the best-case scenario, of course.... --Trovatore (talk) 23:02, 11 September 2016 (UTC)

Are you sure doing nothing is the best-case scenario? I wonder, what can be worse than doing nothing: Do you mean doing something negatively? e.g. building a negative house, or planting a negative tree, or plucking a negative leaf, or uprooting a negative root, or drawing a negative square, and likewise? Anyways, if doing nothing is the best-case scenario - as you claim, then I now wonder whether any worse-case scenario - e.g. drawing a negative square or uprooting a negative root - can have a square root. However, I do agree, that any square root of any worse-case scenario - if possible at all - would have constituted an entirely imaginary-case scenario, wouldn't it? HOTmag (talk) 08:33, 13 September 2016 (UTC)

The implication is that when Congress or Parliament does something, it's a bad thing, and it would have been better if they had just done nothing. I was exaggerating a little; it's not always true. But it's true a significant fraction of the time. --Trovatore (talk) 03:11, 15 September 2016 (UTC)

We have an article at Comparison of American and British English, with a section on the different use of tenses. Typing differences between american and british english in Google brings up that article and thousands of other hits, including very many videos with audio examples, fun images with cheery illustrations, and a slew of websites of varying degrees of seriousness. Matt Deres (talk) 15:34, 11 September 2016 (UTC)

• Nobody who isn't from a country estate and has some form of peerage says "Have you...." these days. "Do you have..." is essentially the standard now. Quite often in the form "You don't have X, do you?". The same for shall, will is pretty much uniform these days. You seem to have a very old-fashioned image of English. I don't think the difference with American are as big as you think they are. 86.28.195.109 (talk) 15:47, 11 September 2016 (UTC)

• • The most usual form would be "Have you got a pen?"----Ehrenkater (talk) 17:52, 12 September 2016 (UTC)

• BrENG tends to omit "the" or "a" in many places where AmENG requires it, such as "I went to the university and then to a hospital". StuRat (talk) 15:50, 11 September 2016 (UTC)

• If a British person heard that someone went to university and then to hospital, they would think that person is describing their life course instead of a day out. Americans tend to leave out to (1 through 10, write me). -- zzuuzz ^(talk) 16:13, 11 September 2016 (UTC)

See Wikipedia:Reference_desk/Archives/Language/2010_May_1#Another_thing_about_hospitals..., a question that I asked on this subject years ago. Apparently, US and British usage is very similar, we both "go to school" and "go to church" or "go to the supermarket" and "go to the theater (theatre)". the only difference comes specifically when we "go to the hospital" (US) or "go to hospital" (UK). Alansplodge (talk) 18:20, 11 September 2016 (UTC)

• Many words have slightly different meanings, like "tea" being just the drink or plant in AmENG while also being the afternoon snack served with it in BrENG (I understand NZ English carries this a bit further, to the point where they might say "We are eating our tea now" which would be confusing if tea was also a drink, so they call that a "cuppa"). Another fun one is that the "toilet" in BrENG is what AmENG calls the bathroom, resulting in the British saying "I just washed my hands in the toilet" (of course, even Americans might splash toilet water on their faces.). StuRat (talk) 15:55, 11 September 2016 (UTC)

I doubt that anyone anywhere ever says "I washed my hands in the toilet". If the toilet and bathroom occupy the same room, and if it's necessary to be precise, the room is referred to as "the bathroom" or "the toilet" depending on the context. You relieve yourself in the toilet, then you take a couple of steps and wash your hands in the bathroom, then you leave the room. -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 22:14, 11 September 2016 (UTC)

If there's no bathtub in the room, BrENG does not permit it to be called a "bathroom". It could be called a "lavatory", but that has an upper-class ring to it. So, what's a commoner to call it, other than the "toilet" ? StuRat (talk) 22:35, 11 September 2016 (UTC)

Toilet and Loo would be the most common. But notice that one can wash one's hands in the "bathroom" only if the room actually contains a hand basin, or also functions as a bathroom (i.e. bathtub, shower, basin). If the toilet is not in the bathroom, then you have to move from the toilet to the bathroom to wash your hands (unless you wash your hands in the toilet bowl, which I doubt even Americans do, because it's impossible, since you'd probably make them less sterile than they were before and you'd have to clean them properly somewhere else). -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 05:17, 12 September 2016 (UTC)

Would it qualify as a "bathroom" with just a toilet and sink ? It would in the US, but I thought BrENG required a tub or shower. (Incidentally, a room with just a toilet and no sink is rare in the US, I think there may even be health regulations/building codes against it.) StuRat (talk) 13:48, 12 September 2016 (UTC)

I'm fairly certain that it's contrary to building regulations in the UK too, but you sometimes find basinless toilets in older properties here. Of course, Jack is writing from Australia. Alansplodge (talk) 17:31, 12 September 2016 (UTC)

Basinless toilets are the norm here. In my whole life here, I've come across maybe 2 or 3 toilets that had a basin. There are many places where the toilet's in the same room as the bath tub/spa, shower and basin; but where it's just a toilet, it's just a toilet (hence the term "the smallest room in the house"). Typically, the basin is in the bathroom, the adjoining room. Having an additional one in the toilet would have space implications, and the average size of our homes is already the largest in the developed world (so I read somewhere). -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 21:51, 12 September 2016 (UTC)

That seems rather nonhygenic, as people who've just used the toilet are then turning the doorknob without having washed their hands first. Of course, that's always possible, even if the sink it right there. StuRat (talk) 02:49, 13 September 2016 (UTC)

True, but then, anyone else who touches the knob is highly likely to be going in to relieve themselves anyway. Also, to put it into perspective, the average kitchen bench top, shop counter, phone receiver, set of house keys, public touch screen, supermarket trolley handle, bus/train seat, .... the list is endless ... is just as filthy as any doorknob. -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 05:48, 13 September 2016 (UTC)

First, I suspect that those studies look just at the total number of bacteria, not the strains. Many bacteria on those objects aren't a problem, but fecal bacteria are known to spread disease. Of course, there are people who never wash their hands after using the bathroom, but with any luck none of them live in your home, so there is some possibility of keeping the doorknob clean. StuRat (talk) 14:23, 13 September 2016 (UTC)

Then there are public toilets. Anyone who fails to wash their hands after using the convenience, and then carries on with their business in the shopping mall or wherever, risks spreading their indescribable filth hither and yon among the general populace. I'd almost rather eat my lunch off my toilet seat at home than off a counter in a shop. Please, God, never make me have to choose. -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 23:23, 13 September 2016 (UTC)

Tea can be a main meal in the UK too, it's a bit of a class thing; the evening meal is tea (working class) or dinner (middle class). We do have bathrooms, but they are generally equipped with a bath tub. If it only has a toilet and no bath, it's a toilet (or lavatory, another class thing). Washing your hands "in the toilet" would be amusing here too and is best avoided. Alansplodge (talk) 17:59, 11 September 2016 (UTC)

I would add that, as far as I've heard, British people are not likely to say "Have you a pen?". I would say the most common way of asking that question over here is "Have you got a pen?". [Sidenote - I left what I would call my jumper on a transatlantic flight to Chicago and to try to recover it (failed) I had to go to reception in the hotel and mime putting one on. Apparently a sweater.][Further sidenote. At a business meeting with people in Dallas, the Brits agreed that we would table an item for discussion. We tried to continue discussing it, and discovered that the meaning is diametrically opposed on either side of the Atlantic.]--Phil Holmes (talk) 15:54, 11 September 2016 (UTC)

A jumper used to be called a jersey, which is understandable because it was presumably made of jersey wool. So how did the name "jumper" originate? And "jumpsuit"? 78.146.221.227 (talk) 17:11, 11 September 2016 (UTC)

A jumpsuit is a completely different thing, and as per jumpsuit originally referred to the clothes used when parachuting. Kahastok talk 17:18, 11 September 2016 (UTC)

A jersey (clothing) was originally a knitted garment worn by fishermen from the island of Jersey. There is also a (less popular) Guernsey (clothing) from the next island along. "Jumper" is 'apparently from mid-17c. jump (n.) "short coat worn by men,"' [1]. Curious that User:Phil Holmes had trouble making himself understood, as "jumper" is widely used in the UK. "Stick it up your jumper" used to be a mildly offensive schoolboy phrase (I believe it appears in some Beatles' lyrics). Perhaps it's your accent. Alansplodge (talk) 17:51, 11 September 2016 (UTC)

Phil was making the point that "jumper" (widely used in the UK) wasn't understood in Chicago, which I am led to believe is not in the UK. DuncanHill (talk) 20:05, 12 September 2016 (UTC)

D'oh! Alansplodge (talk) 20:11, 14 September 2016 (UTC)

Just to drive the point into the ground, Americans (or some Americans) do use the term "jumper" for an article of clothing, but a different one. See jumper (dress). It's not a word in my active vocabulary (actually I had to look it up) but I remember my sisters using it when I was growing up. --Trovatore (talk) 02:14, 15 September 2016 (UTC)

"I Am the Walrus", incidentally. Tevildo (talk) 18:03, 11 September 2016 (UTC)

That's the one! Alansplodge (talk) 18:05, 11 September 2016 (UTC)

One more British idiom... "Jumpers for Goalposts" i.e. an improvised game of football (soccer). Alansplodge (talk)

"I met this attractive woman who was wearing, what do you call it, a onesie ?"

"Jumper ?"

"Nah, we just had tea." StuRat (talk) 02:10, 15 September 2016 (UTC)

A list of differences between British and American English would run to hundreds, if not thousands, of pages. Many entire books have been written on the subject, such as [2], [3], [4], and [5], just to pick the first four I happened across. I'd also recommend the blog separated by a common language, written by an American linguist living in Great Britain. CodeTalker (talk) 20:18, 11 September 2016 (UTC)

Great Britain =/= UK: see Terminology of the British Isles. --PalaceGuard008 (Talk) 09:24, 12 September 2016 (UTC)

A few of the WHAAOE links: different names for the room containing a toilet, and various meals known as "tea". Carbon Caryatid (talk) 09:39, 14 September 2016 (UTC)

pronounce sevillian

How pronounce sevillian? Is exact like civilian? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 31.4.156.158 (talk) 15:01, 11 September 2016 (UTC)

As in a native of Seville? I would pronounce the first vowel differently, as in "bet" as opposed to "bit". This difference may not be noticeable with some English accents. Rojomoke (talk) 15:32, 11 September 2016 (UTC)

[edit conflict] By "sevillian", do you mean someone from Seville? If so, it will depend on whether you mean the Spanish city, Sevilla, or other places with derivative names; the endonym for the Spaniards is different from the endonym for the Ohioans, for example. Nyttend (talk) 15:33, 11 September 2016 (UTC)

Yes; I mean Sevilla at Spain. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 31.4.148.64 (talk) 16:57, 11 September 2016 (UTC)

The OP hails from Madrid, so the local pronunciation sevilhano should help him. The English isn't all that different. 78.146.221.227 (talk) 17:07, 11 September 2016 (UTC)

If comparing it with "civilian", note that this word may be pronounced differently by different people. For example, I've heard it said as "sivil-yan". StuRat (talk) 20:34, 11 September 2016 (UTC)

If by "sivil-yan" you mean /sɪˈvɪlyən/, that is the standard pronunciation, according to the dictionaries that I've consulted. How else would you pronounce it? CodeTalker (talk) 21:23, 11 September 2016 (UTC)

He is asking whether the English word Sevillian (person from Seville) is pronounced exactly like the English word civilian, or if there is a difference in pronunciation. I pronounce them exactly the same: /sɪˈvɪljən/ —Stephen (talk) 19:24, 13 September 2016 (UTC)

Phonetically. That is, the "yən" becomes two syllables, more like the name Ian is pronounced. StuRat (talk) 22:30, 11 September 2016 (UTC)

cougaran

I'm puzzled by the derivation and precise meaning of the word cougaran. It appears to be a corruption of the South African word Krugerrand. My difficulty is that, when entered in most search engines, the word cougaran, without explanation, returns entries on the Krugerrand. The word cougaran does not appear in the body of the text. This is true of Wikipedia's own search facility.

This makes further research on the derivation of the word cougaran difficult when limited to internet search engines. It would be helpful if there were some forum in which this could be discussed in the hope that someone out there has special knowledge of the subject. Roland Tyrrell (talk) 17:38, 11 September 2016 (UTC)

Hello, Roland Tyrrell. I have never heard the word. Try asking your question at Wikipedia:Reference desk/Language. Cullen328 Let's discuss it 17:08, 11 September 2016 (UTC)

This site explicitly equates "cougaran" with "Krugerrand". Apart from that, I'm just getting names of cats and similar irrelevances. Note, incidentally, that the cat is named after the coin as well as F. concolor. Tevildo (talk) 19:31, 11 September 2016 (UTC)

As for the search, if google, use intext:cougaran as a way of winnowing out those sites which for whatever reason are returned but lack that string. --Tagishsimon (talk) 20:36, 11 September 2016 (UTC)

@Roland Tyrell:, when you say "This is true of Wikipedia's own search facility", isn't that because you yourself created the redirect, five days ago? Rojomoke (talk) 22:30, 11 September 2016 (UTC)

I recommend that we delete this meaningless entry. The search result is just an artefact of Google's "sounds like" algorithm. The one rogue website that uses this term was registered just a year ago by an unknown person who seems to want to publicise the use of the sound-alike word. (I assume that it wasn't Roland].) Of course, I could be wrong, and, if so, someone will no doubt tell us what region of the world uses the mis-pronunciation. Dbfirs 11:02, 12 September 2016 (UTC)

Per the intext:cougaran search, there are several websites using the term. The cougaran redirect is marked with {{R from alternative name}} ... you might change that to {{R from incorrect name}}. The plurality of websites using the term suggests it has some minimal currency; redirects are cheap and designed exactly for this purpose - to direct users to the page they're most likely to want to see given the (alternative/incorrect) search term used. There seems no good reason to delete the redirect. --Tagishsimon (talk) 12:05, 12 September 2016 (UTC)

OK, point taken, but, in reply, I quote from two of your Google hits: "Wow!! They are very rare. Actually on the endangered species list in 23 states. If she was keeping one in captivity then she could be in some very hot water. The Cougarand is a close relative of the Cougar or Mountain Lion only much smaller. The Cougarands small size is why some try and keep them as house pets. Only once they start growing and they discover how tough it is to take care of, most end up getting flushed down the toilet like the souvenir alligators from Florida." and "Cougaran, you are the perfect portrait of feline perfection! You simply exude elegance! Your beauty leaves me breathless! What an enticing combination of exotic intrigue and refined domestication. You are absolutely stunning Cougaran! Your beauty could adorn the tombs of the Pharohs! Congratulations! What a very special "Cat of the Day!!" ". Should Wikipedia have redirects for all mis-spellings? Dbfirs 12:57, 15 September 2016 (UTC)

So far I have found 22 references on Google to "cougaran" as a synonym for "Krugerrand". While not abundant, these references appear at least to confirm the existence of the word. Rather than assuming the term to be mistaken or the result of a misspelling, I should like to investigate whether "cougaran" might in fact be a corruption of "Krugerrand" — possibly an African corruption. This would be consistent with its use by coin dealers in Europe, who may have heard of the coin under only one or perhaps both names. I confirm that I have no interest in publicizing a "sound-alike" word. I may add that I have never created a redirect. Roland Tyrrell (talk) 18:22, 18 September 2016 (UTC)Roland Tyrrell (talk) 18:26, 18 September 2016 (UTC)