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Reply to Bristol Filer

(I was already in to process of replying, but since I don't want to cause an edit conflict I'll leave you my relpy in a different section here.)

Hi there Bristol Filer and welcome in from the cold. :) I was only suggesting that your account was new, since that is really all we know when someone register. I'm one of the editors who help "newbies". I'm also interested in anything maritime and biographies, which is why I took an interest in you when I saw your post on Philg88's talk page. I also see that he's asked me to step in and help you, we sometimes work together on articles or when helping other editors. I will answer your question there shortly and you are always welcome on either of our talk pages whenever you like.
An article about Michael Macarthy Keane would certainly be interesting and it is "easy peasy" when you have other editors to help and guide you every step of the way. That is what the community is for. The best way to start an article is by creating a Draft, in this case Draft:Michael Macarthy Keane, were you can work and fix the article before it is moved to the main article space. The route from Southampton to New York was certainly a perilous one. Perhaps you could also start with adding some of the facts you talk of above to the SS President article. Just remember to leave references for anything you add. I'll be keeping an eye on your edits and step in and correct things if need be. That way you will learn from the correction, which is even more effective than just reading all the instructions.
Btw, the more common way to make the text appear in italics is to use the '' instead of the <i> </i> . A very useful page for all the coding is Help:Cheatsheet. Take a look. :)
  • And when you want to "mark" a sentence, the practice here is to use the "star/bullet" * instead of † or ‡.
  • The bullet is a part of the coding system, look in the editing window and you'll see how it works.
You may also notice that I have indented my reply using the : code, which is how you separate the posts when "talking".
Each time you
use a : it will
indent what you write.
Look in the editing window and
you will see how it's done.
See you soon! Best, w.carter-Talk 09:05, 22 February 2016 (UTC)

Thanks!

Thanks for your response. I would like to have responded to it directly as you would in an email by clicking the reply button but I couldn't see how to do that. In fact, I'm wafting from page to page getting totally confused!

Regards --Bristol Filer (talk) 09:19, 22 February 2016 (UTC)

@Bristol Filer: Sorry about the confusion, we'll stay on this page for the day at least. You reply by clicking on the small [edit] next to the heading of the section you want to post on and the editing window will open to that section. You also indent every post so it's easy to follow the conversation. I have formatted you post here) I will certainly help you and explain what went wrong with the references, it will take me a while to write though so in the meantime you can address the issue with changing your user name. All the instructions for that are here: Wikipedia:Changing username. w.carter-Talk 09:26, 22 February 2016 (UTC)
@Bristol Filer:So, here we go: When you add a reference in the text you use the <ref></ref> but not when you add it outside the text area as in the Bibliography section. The references are also written according to the Wiki-code which is linked to the automated system so that everything will be display correctly. Now the code must be written using some very exact parameters and sometimes in the right order for it to work. The small pieces of code inside double curly brackets {{}} are called "Templates". Eash Template have a page describing it and how to use it. Those pages was what Philg88 had given you links to earlier. The one you use in the WSL article is Template:Cite book.
Using the "help template": {{sfn}} in the text is an advanced, but very elegant way of connecting the text to the books mentioned below the article but it require some extra and precise parameters in the code for the book. One of these is a date or year. (Well, it can be used without it but that is much more complicated) You had not included that in the "cite book". Since I gather there is no "publication year" on each of the five volumes, you could use the year of last entry in each volume to signify the year.
You had also misunderstood what the different parameters were used for. The "|last1=" "|last2=" are the last names of the different authors of a single volume, not consecutive numbers for the volume. There is only one author for all the books so "|last1=" should be used in all of them. When you wrote "|last2=" the system when looking for the first author. The Caird Library is a part of the National Maritime Museum, so that should be in the "|publisher=" parameter. It is also common to link that publisher to its Wikipedia article. The "|ref=" parameter is for defining how the book should be linked to the text, in this case you link it with the {{sfn}} template by adding "harv" to it. The library number should be in the "|id=" parameter.
A lot to take in. Sorry! I will fix the refs in the article and you can take a look and see how I did it. I will add temporary (plausible/fictional) years to the volumes just to make the code work. Please change those when you have the right dates.
I'm at work now, so I may not be able to respond immediately to you, but I'm near a computer all day so I'll try to be as quick as I can. Best, w.carter-Talk 10:13, 22 February 2016 (UTC)
@Bristol Filer: I see now that you fixed the "|last=" yourself. Nice! w.carter-Talk 10:18, 22 February 2016 (UTC)
Thanks again. There's no panic. Although retired for longer than I care to say, I have plenty of other WSL matters to attend to.
At Phil's suggestion I did try using the Template:Cite book as a starting point but then modified the result as it didn't look right. I would very much welcome your corrected versions. Copying from a master is one of the best ways to learn!
I've abandoned the idea of changing my user name as there seem to be too many implications.Bristol Filer (talk) 10:38, 22 February 2016 (UTC)
@Bristol Filer: The refs are now corrected, yours to copy (and please leave more cocrrect date/years for the journals than my guesstimates). That is a most excellent way to learn here, one that seems to work best. You will learn as you go along. When you are more familiar with the refs you may want to revisit the Template:Cite book and see if you can decipher it. w.carter-Talk 11:16, 22 February 2016 (UTC)
@W.carter: Thanks again. I've corrected the dates. I can now see that the dates are important because they appear when you click on a ref in the text. I'm learning slowly!
Now that the Caird refs are at the end I guess they're not needed after the volume numbers so I'll delete them. I can always replace them if that's wrong.--Bristol Filer (talk) 12:31, 22 February 2016 (UTC)

@Bristol Filer: Quite correct, you did the right thing. Now you need to correct the "sfn" in the text so that it refers to the right volume. Right now it says "{{sfn|Lindsay|1835|page=2}}, I presume it should point to the first volume (1845), but you know best. I also see that you have begun to grasp some of the communication system. Very good! I will leave a little note on that on your own talk page. w.carter-Talk 12:51, 22 February 2016 (UTC)


@W.carter: I was getting round that – diverted but I got diverted.
Btw, I forgot to tell you I've got another Wiki in the pipeline and, if you happen to live in Hampshire, it may be of interest. It's to make Elliott Brothers (builders merchant) more like a proper article with a pretty full account of the history of the company going back to the 1830s.
And very few people look at my wesite on the Robert Lowe (WSL's favourite ship) so I should really make that into a Wiki as well.
I don't know when I'll ever get time to get on with the biography of WSL! --Bristol Filer (talk) 15:07, 22 February 2016 (UTC)
@Bristol Filer: Take your time! Quoting other Wikipedians: "There is no deadline on the WP". Adding info to the Elliott Brothers (builders merchant) article would be very good, since that article is sorely in need of help. Unfortunately I live too far from Hampshire to make a visit there. If you check my user page you will find that I'm Swedish and live on the west coast near the port of Gothenburg. The district is steeped in maritime history as is evident from the articles I enjoy writing such as Swedish East India Company, Götheborg (ship), Jean Abraham Grill, etc. (full list on my user page).
Btw, when you make an external link there is no "|" between the url and the title as this corrupts the link. I removed it from your link above. Beautiful ship! :) w.carter-Talk 15:25, 22 February 2016 (UTC)
@Bristol Filer: P.S. VERY interesting website! Thanks for showing it. w.carter-Talk 15:27, 22 February 2016 (UTC)

The Signpost: 24 February 2016

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Five Points, Manhatten

Hallo W.carter - I planing to do some editing in the article Five Points, Manhattan in the next days. I explained the job on the talk page. Just for information. Best. --Maxim Pouska (talk) 19:24, 6 March 2016 (UTC)

Hello Maxim, it's good to hear from you again. :) My edit on Five Points was no coincident. I was looking through some old posts and saw one from you and wondered what you were doing these days. I saw that you had done something at that article, and since I found it interesting, I read it. I corrected a few minor things as I usually do when I read an article. I had not seen your comment on the talk page, but I've read it now. Unfortunately, I disagree with you about the removal of the quotes. I think they say more about Dickens than the Irish. The WP is full of quotes from historical contexts that makes you cringe when you read them, but this encyclopedia is not censored, and there is an expression that goes: "Sunshine is the best disinfectant", that means that if you bring out ugly things into the light they loose their power and we see just how ridiculous they are. But for the sake of arguing, let's hear if a friendly Irishman has a different point of view (if they like to leave a comment). Cheers, w.carter-Talk 19:56, 6 March 2016 (UTC)
Hello W.carter, OK - but the phrase about the pigs and language is not relevant for the Five Points. Why not deleting this? My story is - in the next 48 hours the Endoscopy article is moving to the main page (Artikel Namens Raum) ANR at de:wp. I take care also for the translation information on my talk page at en:wp. My mentor at de:wp is taking care for more than 25 mentees and as admin he is very, very busy. It was no problem for me. I have a lot work in RL.
The five points is a job I start the next winter at de:wp. An Admin and specialist for Irish history at de:wp asked me to rewrite the article Five Points because the article is .... The article on en:wp is also in need of some update - Updates because of new facts and some other stuff - (TF; engl. original research (OR)). I dit some new research and the book by Tyler Anbinder "Five Points" I did buy and so I know what I have to do. To get contact to an Irish man - friendly Irishman - is very fine. I will ask him for help and corrections of my writing. But I start this only in Novembre or later.
This year I have to do very mucht in real life RL and for WP I write a new biography. But I take my time to do it my way. Best regards.--Maxim Pouska (talk) 23:04, 6 March 2016 (UTC)
@Maxim Pouska: Congrats on your article getting into the main space, that is what "Artikel Namens Raum" is on the English WP. The "main page" is this page. Take your time writing your articles, no need to hurry. I'll be here to help you if you want.
Now, about the derogatory text in Five Points. I am by no means an expert on Irish immigration to the US or the Irish/British relationship through the ages. But as an historic document I think the quote should stay as it is. First, I'm not sure Dickens is talking just about the Irish population living in Five Points. He may be talking about the workers in general living there. Why else would he mention "their masters"? Who would these masters be if they were not their employers? Second, the quote paints a very strong picture about the living conditions in the area and how an outsider/Englishman viewed its inhabitants in the way he de-humanize them by calling them pigs. It may reflect an underlying tension or conflict. These are just my thought, I'm sure an expert could help you out more. Good Night, w.carter-Talk 00:06, 7 March 2016 (UTC)
Good morning, you're right. OK, I've slept on it and think now that I will not edit the article. I will continue to look after the issue of Computer Arts. Have a nice day.--Maxim Pouska (talk) 05:59, 7 March 2016 (UTC)

The Signpost: 02 March 2016

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Nomination of 2016 Tel Aviv knife attack for deletion

A discussion is taking place as to whether the article 2016 Tel Aviv knife attack is suitable for inclusion in Wikipedia according to Wikipedia's policies and guidelines or whether it should be deleted.

The article will be discussed at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/2016 Tel Aviv knife attack until a consensus is reached, and anyone is welcome to contribute to the discussion. The nomination will explain the policies and guidelines which are of concern. The discussion focuses on high-quality evidence and our policies and guidelines.

Users may edit the article during the discussion, including to improve the article to address concerns raised in the discussion. However, do not remove the article-for-deletion notice from the top of the article. Stephen 02:25, 9 March 2016 (UTC)

I've commented on the deletion page. w.carter-Talk 05:32, 9 March 2016 (UTC)

Branstar, Moved to User:W.carter/things I have received

Thanks E.M.Gregory! The jury's still out on whether the article will be kept, nevertheless your gesture is very much appreciated. Cheers, w.carter-Talk 19:44, 9 March 2016 (UTC)

"Fixing" redirects

Hi W.carter, I was just reviewing your January improvements to Lydia the Tattooed Lady and noticed that you altered several wikilinks to bypassed redirect pages. Per WP:NOTBROKEN, it's not necessary to do this. In fact, in some cases (such as fictional character names that redirect to character lists), using the more specific redirect saves work in the event that title becomes its own article in the future. Thanks for your work, and happy editing! Ibadibam (talk) 00:00, 12 March 2016 (UTC)

Thanks for the tip Ibadibam. I'll be more careful in the future and "think twice, fix once (or none)". Cheers, w.carter-Talk 00:06, 12 March 2016 (UTC)

The Signpost: 09 March 2016

Hallin

If you find time for it, please take a look at the article about Margareta Hallin. Thanks:)--BabbaQ (talk) 13:45, 11 March 2016 (UTC)

Seems like you already have several expert editors copyediting and fixing that article. Cheers, w.carter-Talk 14:05, 11 March 2016 (UTC)
Thank you so much for proof reading the article. Appreciate it.--BabbaQ (talk) 15:20, 13 March 2016 (UTC)
You're welcome. w.carter-Talk 15:26, 13 March 2016 (UTC)
If you want to, please take a look at the article about Frans Jeppsson Wall. Appreciate it.--BabbaQ (talk) 19:23, 16 March 2016 (UTC)
@BabbaQ: The what page? It's a red link. w.carter-Talk 19:26, 16 March 2016 (UTC)
 Done w.carter-Talk 22:10, 16 March 2016 (UTC)

The Signpost: 16 March 2016

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Happy Easter, dear talk page visitors!

Coffee break en route to Blåkulla
... should stay at home.

Wishing all good editors who hang out here a Happy Easter! Here's a little prank that made Skellefteå Airport famous this year. Fly carefully! w.carter-Talk 18:19, 25 March 2016 (UTC)

The Signpost: 23 March 2016

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Blocked

N You have been blocked for not respecting talk page guidelines. Enjoy! hahaha! Jim Carter 08:25, 1 April 2016 (UTC)

Guidelines??? You mean there are rules here? What are those for, I demand my constitutional right of free speech! This is a free website and I'll write whatever I please!! Btw, what's a "talk page"? The page I was writing on was on the Wikipedia so I thought it was an article that needed correcting. Strange place this... w.carter-Talk 09:07, 1 April 2016 (UTC)
JimCarter would always block w.carter on this day
14.139.242.195 (talk) 10:45, 1 April 2016 (UTC)
You have been site banned for your response. Jim Carter 12:09, 1 April 2016 (UTC)
No problem. I will find a new IP to keep record of my friends. Haha. Now the whole college is blocked!
14.139.242.195 (talk) 12:18, 1 April 2016 (UTC)

Reversion

Hi W.carter: A recent edit you performed here has been reverted. You may want to check it out. North America1000 14:17, 1 April 2016 (UTC)

@Northamerica1000: That page still lacks this important ref. Please add it. w.carter-Talk 14:24, 1 April 2016 (UTC)
The Magic 8-Ball says "My sources say no". North America1000 14:36, 1 April 2016 (UTC)

The Signpost: 1 April 2016

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DYK for Margareta Hallin

Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 00:03, 4 April 2016 (UTC)

It hurts

I felt bad after I read this. Jim Carter 15:56, 5 April 2016 (UTC) Jim Carter 15:56, 5 April 2016 (UTC)

@Jim Carter:There are several reasons why I prefer to edit on the English WP... The bizarre Swe copyright law is one. Talk about preventing the spreading of knowledge. w.carter-Talk 17:19, 5 April 2016 (UTC)

Gärdestad

If you find time for it, please take a look at the article about Ted Gärdestad. I am thinking about improving it as it is about one of Swedens most famous singers. Any help is appreciated. Tackar :).--BabbaQ (talk) 11:49, 6 April 2016 (UTC)

Ok BabbaQ, I'll take a look at it later. w.carter-Talk 19:14, 6 April 2016 (UTC)
Well BabbaQ, I've  Done what I can with the article right now. Good luck with improving/expanding it! w.carter-Talk 22:37, 8 April 2016 (UTC)

New message

Many Thanks W. Cater for your support and generous welcome message, really appreciated. Siko55 (talk) 14:40, 13 April 2016 (UTC)

Hi Siko55! You almost got it right. If you put text inside the "arrows", it will not appear on the page. That code is for "invisible" comments to help or to point out something to editors. You are always welcome here, it's good to have you on board. w.carter-Talk 14:52, 13 April 2016 (UTC)
Dear w.carter thanks again for your assistance in editing the article, I really surprised with the great view and editing the article, I'm sorry I didn't have time to see your comments in time as I'll take an IELTS exam very soon. Siko55 (talk) 15:22, 13 April 2016 (UTC)
Well Siko55, all new articles are scrutinized very thoroughly here. And don't worry, take your exam and good luck, your draft will still be here in a few months when you are done with that and you can continue your work here. The last reviewer had an excellent idea of adding some or your text to the existing container article, I think you should go with that. Let me know when you are ready to continue. Btw, if you want to answer this, you simply click on the small [edit] to the right of the "New message" heading, and you can add your comment below my text here. w.carter-Talk 15:35, 13 April 2016 (UTC)

The Signpost: 14 April 2016

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Many thanks @w.carter

Dear @w.carter ,

I cant express my grateful for your great assistance and guidance you offered me.

Many thanks my dear, I hope I can do something in return for your assistance. Sayed_Barakat 21:57, 22 April 2016 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Siko55 (talk • contribs)

You're welcome! I find your draft an interesting subject and I don't mind helping you at all. Best, w.carter-Talk 22:03, 22 April 2016 (UTC)

GOCE

Thank you for your edits at Murder of Alexandra Mezher. Could you please add the GOCE tag to the articles talk page. Appreciate it.--BabbaQ (talk) 12:12, 23 April 2016 (UTC)

@BabbaQ: The-Who-The-What? O_o I'm by no means a member of the GOCE, I just happened to stumble upon the request there as I was checking out an edit made by a newbie I was helping. I only did what little I could and that was not a full and correct copy edit, I think me leaving some sort of official c/e tag would be considered a fraud. Hope you get some more competent help from a true guild member. Cheers, w.carter-Talk 12:25, 23 April 2016 (UTC)

The Signpost: 24 April 2016

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sydney punchbowls

Dear W.carter,

Thank you for kindly contacting me about the article Sydney punchbowls. I feel it's an important article in terms of the writing, content and value to Australian-Chinese history. However I have no investment personally in the article. I hoped that by drawing some attention to those in Wikiproject 'Visual Arts', that another editor with more knowledge of ceramics of this period (which I do not have) might promote it to B class at least. The nomination I understand has to be proposed by one who has not edited the article, but i may be wrong. If you can help with this, and set me straight, I'd appreciate that. I'm a keen editor but being retired from the rat race, I am a reluctant administrator!JamesMcArdle 23:36, 24 April 2016 (UTC)

Hello Jamesmcardle, I agree with you that the article is indeed interesting and it would be great if it could be brought up to GA. However, I'm afraid you have misunderstood how the GA process works, it is quite the opposite of what you are talking about. If you nominate an article for GA, it fall to you the nominator, to fix it up so that it can pass the GA criteria. Other editors may chip in and help a bit, but otherwise it will be you working on the article under the scrutinizing eye of a reviver who is there to point out all the things that needs fixing. The process is quite arduous and usually take 1-3 weeks. If you are not up to this, I suggest you withdraw the nomination. If you want an article improved without doing all the hard work yourself, one way is to nominate it for Today's articles for improvement. Anyway, I'll see what I can do to for the article, for starters the refs needs a thorough cleaning up. Best, w.carter-Talk 08:51, 25 April 2016 (UTC)
@Jamesmcardle: I have done what I can for the article, that is fixed up all the refs and sorted them out. I've also gone over the text for formatting, encyclopedic style and such things. Since I've now read it very thoroughly, I am a bit concerned as to whether it will pass GA. Some sections and facts are unsourced, and while it certainly is an interesting article, there are passages in it that are close to original research. I understand that it is largely written by an editor who is a librarian at the library where one of the bowls are kept, so many sources are unfortunately original documents dealing with the bowls and events surrounding them. The article is written more in the way you would write a thesis on the subject, and this is why I'm concerned. I see that you have kept the nomination. I'll be watching the page and see how things develop and I'll hop in if I see something I can help with. All the best, w.carter-Talk 22:13, 28 April 2016 (UTC)
@W.carter: Thank you for all the work you've done on this article. No doubt the original editor User:Dyddi does too. Will get in touch them and discuss going on with the nomination. I appreciate your points about the sourcing and 'original research' issue, though perhaps some documentation has now, or soon will be, been published in a form more legitimately to be used as references. In sincere gratitude, JamesMcArdle 02:00, 29 April 2016 (UTC)

A barnstar for you!

Moved to User:W.carter/things I have received

Thank you, that was extremely kind of you! It is always a pleasure to work on interesting and well written articles. In this case, I also found some refs that I can use in other articles I'm working on. Very useful indeed. Hope you don't mind that I converted the barnstar to a regular one. I'm not an administrator and therefore not entitled to such high honors as the barnstar you gave me and some editors may think it against Wikipedia etiquette for me to accept such an award. Speaking of fixing things: Since I have you on my watchlist, I noticed that you were having some difficulties in arranging your user page. Would you like me to fix that for you? I'm very familiar with the formatting so it would only take a couple of minutes and you can tweak it or revert it afterwards if you don't like it. I have done this for several other editors before so it's no problem. Best, w.carter-Talk 09:27, 29 April 2016 (UTC)

Dear w.carter, of course, please use the barnstar which is appropriate! Its a thrill to find someone as helpful as you in the often rather daunting byways of WP.
I would appreciate help with formatting my user page, which is not something I've been paying attention to and probably should (looking at yours, and from which I copied the handy time-zone box), but that really is above and beyond - only do so if and when you have time, no urgency.
Best regards, JamesMcArdle 10:18, 29 April 2016 (UTC)
@Jamesmcardle:  Done No problem! I've formatted it in a way that I think will be easy for you to work with. Once the basic code is in place it is always easier to see how it can be altered to your needs, but if there is any problem just 'ping' me. :) Or if you want any help with some other project you're working on. It's always a pleasure to meet and work with polite and dedicated editors like you. Cheers, w.carter-Talk 11:13, 29 April 2016 (UTC)
@W.carter: Much appreciated! Looks so much better! Thank you again for your kindness and energetic work! JamesMcArdle 11:24, 29 April 2016 (UTC)

ITN recognition for Destruction of ivory

On 2 May 2016, In the news was updated with an item that involved the article Destruction of ivory, which you nominated. If you know of another recently created or updated article suitable for inclusion in ITN, please suggest it on the candidates page. Stephen 00:22, 2 May 2016 (UTC)

The Signpost: 2 May 2016

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About Monts de Gueret Animal Park

Dear W.carter,

After a long (but not welcome) break I'm gradually, but gladly returning to my editing. I have several new ideas, but in the first place I would like to enrich the article The Wolves of Chabrières (which I was able to complete successfully only because your constant help and reliable support) with the couple of links, leading to the latest articles. The results of Cambridge University recent research were published in the article Wolf Species Have ‘Howling Dialects’ by the magazine on line Science Daily: https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2016/02/160208083546.htm Another article more or less duplicates the first one and is presented by Pulse Headlines:

http://www.pulseheadlines.com/21-types-wolf-howls/17107/

Also I found a dead link under number 15 in the list of references: 15. 69+"Loups-France" [Wolves-France] (PDF). www.pyrenees-pireneus.com. Le Monde Des Pyrenees. Retrieved 19 December 2015.

Should I remove it? Am I allowed to make changes and additions without prior discussions with the editors?

I would be very glad to hear from you again.

Regards, Chris Oxford Chris Oxford (talk) 19:00, 24 April 2016 (UTC)

A welcome back howl
Hello Chris Oxford and welcome back to the Wikipedia, it's good to hear from you again. :) You, and anyone else who feel so inclined, can of course change, add to, expand, tweak, improve, etc. that article or any article here, that is how the WP works, as long as the changes are improvements and the new material is supported by reliable sources. Please do! As for the dead link: If you can find another working source that supports the same facts, you should replace it with that one, otherwise you should tag it with {{deadlink|date=April 2016}} at the end of the ref and leave it be. I took a quick look, and I think the people managing that site have just moved it to another address. Go the their start page and see if you can locate the facts again.
Most changes does not need to be discussed with other editors, at least not in your article, I don't think there are too many contested or disputed facts in it that warrants a discussion. If you were editing articles like say the Al-Qaeda article, things would be very different... Although I do remember that a very heated discussion erupted some time ago over the Danish pastry article. :-/ Use your common sense and all will be fine, I'll keep an eye on things as well. Happy editing, w.carter-Talk 19:48, 24 April 2016 (UTC)

Dear W.carter,

Great thanks for your reply and advice. Will do the job during this week.

Regards, Chris Oxford Chris Oxford (talk) 22:47, 24 April 2016 (UTC)

Regarding Ancient Corinth

Dear W.carter,

Job is done — the excellent “welcome back” helped to complete it with good mood and fairly quickly. At the moment I can’t find anything else, what relates to this subject, so I think, that for today this article is provided with a rather sufficient amount of sources of fresh information.

So, now I have a very different question. But in the first place, to make “prehistory” of my question completely clear, I want to present this talk:

  • Copy of conversation:

Dear Editors,

Since I joined the brotherhood of Wikipedians (not so long ago), I spend the good portion of time, learning the rules of this unique educational institution, but in spite of the growing confidence, I feel that without friendly advice I can't go forward, and now I need your help in regards of the following: recently I had achieved (as I have a keen interest in Ancient civilizations and archaeology) my long-time dream to visit the site of archaeological excavations in Ancient Corinth (Peloponnese, Greece) ; I made plenty of photos and now thinking to build on the base of this photo material a new article, using as the academic source the book ‘Corinth-Mycenae’ by Elisavet Spathari - brilliant Greek archaeologist, Director Emeritus of Ministry of Culture. This lady is the author of several books on history and art of Ancient Greece, but only one of them is translated from Greek to English, and it is possible to buy this book only locally - in the museum, located at archaeological site of Ancient Corinth. So, can I refer to this book and use it as a reliable source of information? Will it be good enough to refer to only one source?

Regards, Chris.Chris Oxford (talk) 15:34, 16 September 2015 (UTC) 

       Hello, Chris Oxford, and welcome to the Teahouse. We already have an article Ancient Corinth, is there any reason not to add to and improve this article? We generally don't want to have two different articles on the same topic, unless they are on different aspects of the topic, and there is enough information to make a combined article awkward. Sources need not be in English, but when using a non-english source, it is very helpful to include a translation of the key passage, this can be done with the quote= parameter if using citation templates. If, however there are other sources of equal quality in English, those are usually preferred, because more readers of the English-language version of Wikipedia will be able to use them. An article should not normally be based on a single source. On this subject, there are many high-quality sources available, I am confident. DES (talk) 16:06, 16 September 2015 (UTC)

   The clearest statement is at WP:Offline sources, but yes, a hard-to-find book is just fine; it's the quality of the book and author that's important, not its availability. What would be lovely is if there was an article about the author, too, if she's such a noted archaeologist. Searching Greek wikipedia turns up a couple of citations to her, but nothing written about her. One thing I tend to do when citing something hard to find is use the |quote= feature of the citation templates to show what I'm paraphrasing. 71.41.210.146 (talk) 16:05, 16 September 2015 (UTC)

       I quite agree that if Elisavet Spathari is a notable academic, a new article about her would be good, with perhaps suitable citations/mentions in Ancient Corinth or another appropriate article or articles. Remember the WP:Golden rule that notability must be clearly established for each article topic. DES (talk) 16:12, 16 September 2015 (UTC)

On a only partially related note, you may find Wikipedia:Mentorship, or Wikipedia:Co-op or Wikipedia:Adopt-a-user/Adoptee's Area as a place to find an "adviser" . -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 16:18, 16 September 2015 (UTC)

Dear Editors,

I thank all, who responded to my letter Reliable Sources.

I would like to say special thanks for detailed, clear explanation of how to proceed on the article Ancient Corinth. Yes, I can add some details to existing article, using citations from Elisavet Spathari's book, and also upload several photos, which I made on the archaeological site. Regarding the advice, kindly given me by DES, to write the article about Elisavet Spathari, I have to admit, that I thought about it myself, but I (as well) could not find even a short article, written about her. Of course, her books are the complete proof, that she is an expert in this field, but there is no information about the author even in her book 'Corinth-Mycenae', which I bought in Corinth.

Regards, Chris.

In such situation am I allowed by the rules of Wikipedia to contact author of the books by email and ask her to send me material (texts, photos, links to the sources, useful for the article about this archaeologist, or such practices are not appreciated and I need to find all references myself?

And if I will find suitable info myself in the library, for example, then how to prove that this information exists in the library, in academic publications, in the archive of the University, or newspapers that are not on the Internet?

And if there are no articles ABOUT her, but only her own books, which is possible to see on sale on the Amazon, does it mean that she is not qualified to be in Wikipedia as a notable person, even if she is the author of all these books on ancient civilizations?

In spite of the fact, that I really would like to follow the advice of Wikipedian DESiegel (DES), and that his words: “I quite agree that if Elisavet Spathari is a notable academic, a new article about her would be good... “ I can repeat myself with total confidence, as her books are great, I just can’t understand — how to deal with the formula where there are X's only?

Is there an exact solution?

Will be glad to know what you think about this dilemma.


Regards, Chris Oxford Chris Oxford (talk) 21:30, 29 April 2016 (UTC)

Reply

Hello Chris Oxford, let's see if I can sort this out for you. Your additions to the wolf park article looks great. Well done! Second: Please don't call the Wikipedia a "brotherhood", it's disrespectful to the many female Wikipedians editing here. Third: I totally agree with the edtors at the Teahouse that any new facts you have about Ancient Corinth should be added to that article and not result in a new article. You can use that one source as much as you like, in any language you like just as long as you provide a translation of the source's title the same way you did with the French sources at Monts de Gueret Animal Park.

On to your questions about Elisavet Spathari. First of all, she is notable. A person's notability by Wikipedia's standards is defined very clearly in the pages covering the rules of the WP. There are different criteria for different occupations and she falls under, and fulfills, at least two of these. Just by introducing her, you have established her notability! One of the criteria's for academics is "The person is or has been an elected member of a highly selective and prestigious scholarly society or association", well, she is "Director Emeritus of Ministry of Culture" and that certainly falls within that category. And since she has published several extensive books that are translated into several languages (just look at this list!), I'm pretty sure she also may fall under another academics criteria "The person's academic work has made a significant impact in the area of higher education, affecting a substantial number of academic institutions." She is also an author and as such she also passes the criteria "The person has created ... a significant or well-known work or collective body of work. In addition, such work must have been the subject of ... multiple independent periodical articles or reviews.".

With these facts alone, you can start a draft about her. Just click here → Draft:Elisavet Spathari and get started. Here are answers to your questions:

  • No, you may not contact Spathari and ask her for information or whatever! That is against WP policy and those sources would not be admissible in the article. Nearly all information about her must come from sources other than herself.
  • You are very welcome to dig out info about her in the library. You "prove" that the books, journals etc. exists by leaving all the facts about them in the references so that someone can find them should they want to. But instead of {{cite web}} you use {{cite book}} or {{cite journal}} or {{cite news}}. Sources don't have to be easy to find, they just need to exist. Take a look at this article it is even a Featured Article and most of the sources in it are obscure and hard-to-obtain old books. Also, there are plenty of sources on the Internet that are not available if you don't pay for viewing them, are a member or don't subscribe, such sources can be even harder to find than old books in a free libray. If you want to see what references to obscure offline sources looks like, check out the references in the Kidney article.
  • As for articles about her, there are enough to start the article since all you need is the list of her publications and a reliable page that says that she is "Director Emeritus of Ministry of Culture". I have checked, and there are sources for this. Every article does not have to include all facts about the subject at the beginning, they grow over time (years). A search for "Elisavet Spathari" yielded 121 hits online. BUT as ever so often the WP can have a rather narrow view when it comes to sources... She is Greek, and doing a search using Greek characters for her name, ΕΛΙΣΑΒΕΤ ΣΠΑΘΑΡΗ, ΣΠΑΘΑΡΗ, ΕΛΙΣΑΒΕΤ, Σπαθάρη, Ελισάβετ or ελισαβετ σπαθαρη, I got thousands of hits! So the only question is: How is your Greek? My knowledge of Greek characters is rusty at best and my knowledge of the language almost non-existent...

So you see, the formula does not consist of just X's, there are also Y, Z and even α,β and all the way to Ω. Best, w.carter-Talk 23:46, 29 April 2016 (UTC)

Dear W.carter,

Thank you for the great support: your excellent explanation clarified all the points right away.

And you are completely right in regards of the usage of the word “brotherhood”; I sincerely did not notice that it does not apply to all people, because “internally” I used this word in a broader sense, meaning "community" or “friendship”, but when I looked at this sentence from the side, then I also spotted the “sensitive nerve” here, and realized that it can be perceived differently. It is really necessary to be attentive with the use of words and apply them in their direct (not subjective) sense, and it is very good that you pointed out to me this error, as I used, time to time, that word in my own “personal” vision.

Now about article: I found a couple of references, proving that Elisavet Spathari is a Director Emeritus of Ministry of Culture, but are these sources reliable enough? This is the link to the Astronomy magazine on line, where Elisavet Spathari is mentioned among the speakers, as archaeologist, Director Emeritus of Ministry of Culture: http://cs.astronomy.com/asy/b/daves-universe/archive/2015/04/24/odyssey-of-knowledge-set-for-tomorrow-in-athens.aspx If you will click on her name — there is also list of her books here, so, if we add it to the link, supplied by you ( http://www.biblionet.gr/author/28007/%CE%95%CE%BB%CE%B9%CF%83%CE%AC%CE%B2%CE%B5%CF%84_%CE%A3%CF%80%CE%B1%CE%B8%CE%AC%CF%81%CE%B7), then it will be, probably, complete list of the books, written by Elisavet Spathari. By the way, will both links be considered as the good references, proving that these books really exist, or they all must be checked in the library?

The second source is the PhD thesis of the researcher Nikolaos Dimakis; in this paper he has mentioned “the emeritus director Elisavet Spathari” in the comments on the page 114.

Also, Elisavet Spathari is mentioned in connection with her participation in The Nemea Valley Archaeological Project, sponsored by Bryn Mawr Collegein, in the section Funding and Acknowledgements: 

“The project was awarded a permit for excavation and survey from the American School of Classical Studies at Athens, which was granted by the Ministry of Culture of Greece. Special thanks are owed to the former Director of Antiquities, Dr. Iannis Tzedakis, the successive Ephors of the Archaeological Service in Nauplion, Dr. Phani Pachiyianni and Dr. Elisavet Spathari. “

http://www.brynmawr.edu/archaeology/NVAP/Index.htm

That is all what I found at the moment in English.

In regards to your question: “How is your Greek?”, the only answer, which I’m considering as correct, is: “Totally nohow”. I’m afraid, that Greek people, whom I met during my trip to Corinth and who genuinely wanted to help, but did not speak English, after a few minutes of active trying to explain to me something in good Greek, came to the same conclusion.

Yes, I was almost completely sure myself, that I can not come into contact with Elisavet Spathari, but a few months ago in one of the "talks" I read the advice of the editor (possibly, with the lack of good experience) to another one, where he advised to try to “ask for pictures” directly from the person, who should be described in the in the proposed article. Thereby I decided to clarify this point.

So, Elisavet Spathari is notable: that is an established fact and this is a good news, but I do not know the place of her birth, age, any facts from her biography, even where she studied archaeology; can article be excepted, if it contains only information about her position as Director Emeritus of Ministry of Culture and about her books? Or this text will stay in the form of draft until other editors will add all necessary info for the completion of the article? But what if they have no such info as well?

Regards, Chris Oxford Chris Oxford (talk) 17:25, 1 May 2016 (UTC)

Reply 2.0

My dear Chris, you worry far too much! Yes, you have quite enough to start the draft and we will fix it so that it looks like a nice article before it's moved to the main space. There are plenty of biographical articles out there with much less info, just look at this list of similar articles! with articles like this one, I'm sure we can do far better than that. Start with what you have found so far. Once the article is started there are plenty of Greek editors here who can help expanding it over time. Heaven knows I've expanded a lot of very short articles on Swedish things just because I speak the language.

The list on Biblionet is quite enough. With that list and some online searching you/we should have no trouble finding the ISBN numbers for all the books, and that equals proof. You have to think a bit like a detective looking for clues where one thing leads to another. About asking a subject of an article for pictures, that can be done, but it is a very tricky process. I did that once for this article, and it took about 10-12 emails over some weeks before it was all done...

You should also get familiar with Google translate, it will help you immensely. Just copy bits of the text from any article to that and you got all the translation you want. Just for fun I entered "Ministry of Culture" and got "Υπουργείο Πολιτισμού" as the Greek translation. Combining that with her name I Googled for "Ελισάβετ Σπαθάρη Υπουργείο Πολιτισμού" and among some articles I found this article where the FBI also is mentioned so I'm sure there is something interesting in the article to use a translator program on. And so on. This is one example of how you can work and search for facts for an article. You just have to start. Cheers, w.carter-Talk 18:19, 1 May 2016 (UTC)

Dear W.carter,

That is really good that you have decided to build this article also together: it will be so much better in comparison with the result of my own efforts only.

As I understand now, it is actually possible to ask a subject of an article for pictures and it is not contrary to the rules of Wikipedia, but to contact this person with the purpose to obtain a subject’s personal details, or even information relating to the professional achievements, is prohibited? Do I understand correctly?

So, FBI?! I see… But, please, do not think, that my next panic question is linked directly to this circumstance. 

That is just about ANY notable living person question, the answer to which I could not find anywhere: what will happen if the person about whom the article will be written do not want to be in Wikipedia for some/any personal reasons?

Shall the person be informed somehow in advance that an article about him/her is planning to be on display for the wide public?

I noticed that the translator is very useful if the language is familiar enough and you only want to verify that either. But if the language is not familiar at all and you want to translate complex phrases, the confusion may occur as it happened to me when I sent such greetings to my Japanese colleagues. Good thing they had a great sense of humour.

Now I need your advice on how to deal correctly with a time schedule in respect to the draft of the article, as I'll be forced by the circumstances to make a pause in editing from the end of this week to the second week of June. What is better - to start immediately to make the draft "in", or to wait to that point when in the libraries will appear a figure in black glasses and in a long coat with a collar raised up, looking for clues and actively collecting proofs and evidence, what will mean, that I returned to editing, and to complete the article smartly without the breaks?

Regards, Chris Oxford Chris Oxford (talk) 20:38, 4 May 2016 (UTC)

Dear W.carter, I decided to start the article right now. It is not much of material at the moment, but you are right - it is already something for the beginning. Will continue from the second week of June. Great thanks for draft, which you have already made.

Regards, Chris Oxford Chris Oxford (talk) 22:28, 6 May 2016 (UTC)

Hello Chris, sorry for the late reply but I was away for a while. I will leave you a copy of this answer on your talk page as well since it is likely that this discussion will be archived when you return in June.
It is not prohibited for you to contact anyone you are writing an article about, you just can't use the information you get from a conversation, letter or email in the article. All facts for WP articles must be written by someone else so that other people can find it as well to verify that it's correct. The only good thing contacting someone for information is that they may know where facts about them are written, sources you can then use in the article. As for a photo, we will take that info when you get back in June. There are a couple of ways to do that. As far as I know, no one can forbid or decline to get an article about them in the WP. It's the same with any encyclopedia. If you do noticeable things, you get noticed. The WP is only a collection of what is already made public in some way and you do not have to inform them about getting an article here. The translator can be a great help once you find out what you can and can not do with it as you so rightly pointed out. Great that you started the draft! :) I'll help you tidy it up until you get back. Good luck with whatever it is you will be doing until then! Best, w.carter-Talk 08:36, 8 May 2016 (UTC)

Hello W.carter, I was very glad to hear from you before my break. Thank you very much for your explanations - now all is clear. Sure that we will build a good article. Talk to you soon. Regards, Chris Oxford Chris Oxford (talk) 22:41, 8 May 2016 (UTC)

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