User talk:Jacobisq/Archive 1

Archive 1

Welcome

Welcome!

Hello, Jacobisq, and welcome to Wikipedia! Thank you for your contributions. I hope you like the place and decide to stay. Here are some pages that you might find helpful:

• The five pillars of Wikipedia
• Tutorial
• How to edit a page and How to develop articles
• How to create your first article (using the Article Wizard if you wish)
• Manual of Style

I hope you enjoy editing here and being a Wikipedian! Please sign your messages on discussion pages using four tildes (~~~~); this will automatically insert your username and the date. If you need help, check out Wikipedia:Questions, ask me on my talk page, or ask your question on this page and then place {{helpme}} before the question. Again, welcome!

PS Great job on Death drive! Lova Falk talk 09:11, 9 July 2010 (UTC)

Hi. Could you put your email address on my user page? I want to send you a long email. I'll delete it from my user page as soon as I see it. Don't worry, I'm not a criminal.Thegoldenconciseencyclopediaofmammals (talk) 22:07, 31 July 2010 (UTC)

Actually that's not necessary. Just used the "E-mail this user" link to left. That is the proper way to send a private e-mail. Nobody should post their e-mail anywhere in Wikipedia, because anything posted is kept potentially forever due to change logs. Just letting both of you know since you're both pretty new.Legitimus (talk) 02:35, 1 August 2010 (UTC)

Excellent work

Just to say that you are doing great stuff and i only wish there were 10 of you. There are loads of psychology articles that need beefing up such as the ones listed on User:Penbat. I hope you can keep going.--Penbat (talk) 14:30, 5 November 2010 (UTC)

Just want to endorse the above and thank you for your contributions. MartinPoulter (talk) 17:09, 28 November 2010 (UTC)

Codependency and narcissism

ive made comments here: Talk:Codependency#Codependency_and_narcissism --Penbat (talk) 10:30, 22 November 2010 (UTC)

Please let me know how I am doing

Hi, Jacobisq, I just heard via a comment from Penbat on the WikiProject Psychology talk page that you are doing good work on psychology articles (as I see confirmed by barnstars on your user page). I'd like to learn from you how to do better editing on psychology topics (my interest is mostly ability testing and gifted education), so I'll be looking at your contributions to get a sense of how you edit. You are very welcome to give me advice as I plunge into editing more articles. Since I became a wikipedian, I have been compiling a source list on human intelligence that I plan to use to edit several dozen articles here. I will be glad to hear your advice as the editing goes on, and if you have suggestions of additional sources, I'd love to hear those. Keep up the good work. -- WeijiBaikeBianji (talk, how I edit) 22:35, 23 November 2010 (UTC)

Narcissistic rage and narcissistic injury

If you dont mind Narcissistic rage and narcissistic injury could do with some beefing up and I am getting out of my depth. For example, I think "narcissistic scar" and "narcissistic wound" go back to Freuds day. I dont think Kohut introduced "narcissistic rage" and i dont know who introduced "narcissistic injury".--Penbat (talk) 21:26, 4 December 2010 (UTC)

Wow - i'm lost for words - awesome work from yourself on codependency, narcissistic rage and narcissistic injury and narcissistic supply! --Penbat (talk) 13:22, 8 December 2010 (UTC)

True self and false self

No rush but whenever you get the chance i think there is some work that should be done improving True self and False self on Wikipedia. I'm not sure if there should be a combined "True self and false self" article or one for each of them. I was planning to work on it myself but see myself getting out of my depth quite quickly. There is some useful (but unreferenced) material tucked away in "Donald_Winnicott#True_self_and_false_self. There is Psychology of self but it doesnt currently mention True Self or False Self at all (although there is some relevant Kohut material in there). I think it should at least mention them briefly and then link out to separate article(s) for more detail.

Vaknin http://samvak.tripod.com/faq48.html refers to narcissists displaying a false "perfect" self to the world and keeping his real imperfect true self under wraps and hidden most of the time. If the narcissist is criticized he would be forced to view himself from his true self persona as the criticism threatens his perfect false self facade. The narcissist then counters this narcissistic injury with narcissistic rage.

"True self" and "false self" also have religious meanings as mentioned in Religious views on the self so that angle needs to be covered as well.--Penbat (talk) 21:30, 9 December 2010 (UTC)

What about structuring a new article True and False Selves (psychoanalysis) around Winnicott's ideas, which I am fairly sure I can do, adding a section on Vaknin, possibly Kohut too, and doing a see also for religion - I've got some stuff on Indian concepts of self in Richard Gregory's Oxford Companion to the Mind but a) above my head b) think it belongs (if anywhere) in the article you mention Religious views on the self Jacobisq (talk) 11:52, 10 December 2010 (UTC)

Sounds like it is best to have a "True self and false self" article covering Winnicot/Freud etc (isnt Kohuts grandiose self just another name for false self ?). As there isnt currently a "True self and false self (religion)" article i dont think we need the "(psychoanalysis)" suffix. I should just forget the religious angle for now, maybe just include a religion paragraph and link out to Religious views on the self.--Penbat (talk) 12:05, 10 December 2010 (UTC)

fr wiki has a long article on true and false self called Self (psychanalyse). Google trans might make a starting point. Not sure where Freud comes in here, better consult my trusty Fenichel! Jacobisq (talk) 08:49, 11 December 2010 (UTC)

Sandor Rado

It could be organised as you suggest using
{{selfref|For text see [[articlename]]}}
but i think in this case a rename of "Sandor Rado (psychoanalyst)" to "Sandor Rado" is justified as the other chap is most commonly known as Alexander Rado. I will organise this on Wikipedia:Requested_moves. It will probably take a week to get approved. --Penbat (talk) 11:28, 10 December 2010 (UTC)

Jacques Lacan and Maud Mannoni

You added Ms Mannoni as a "See also". I was about to revert that change, mainly because the article gives no indication why the reader should move onto that see-also article but also because Mannoni is a red link. However I see that you have a draft in User space so guess you'll be promoting that soon. She is deceased so there aren't WP:BLP concerns, but can I suggest adding some references so that the new article doesn't immediately get flagged as Unreferenced? And coming back to my first point, if relevant to Lacan (rather than vice versa) it would be best to invoke Ms Mannoni within the text rather than an uncontexted see-also. AllyD (talk) 09:49, 12 December 2010 (UTC)

Narcissistic abuse & Sycophancy

Hi happy new year and thanks very much for your recent excellent work. Two little jobs i am keen on resolving are:

• Abuse#Narcissistic_abuse - I have seen quite few mentions of "narcissistic abuse" in the literature but nothing specifically saying what it is. I think you could say that it is basically the outcome of narcissistic rage. I think Vaknin first used the phrase. Do you know of anybody before Vaknin who used it ? Any chance you can write a few sentences at Abuse#Narcissistic_abuse about "narcissistic abuse" with one or more cited sources ?

• Sycophancy#Psychology_and_sociology_of_sycophancy - A brief write up on the psychology and sociology of sycophancy is needed. I have only found one decent sounding academic source "Clark LP A Psychological Study of Sycophancy. Psychoanalytic Review 21:15-39 (1934)". If you have access to this source or know of anything else relevant, can you write a few sentences in Sycophancy#Psychology and sociology of sycophancy ? I think sycophancy is actually related to codependency. Incidentally there is a book called "Silbermann, Alphons & Lob, Ladislaus, Grovelling and Other Vices: The Sociology of Sycophancy (2000)" but it is unrelated garbage.

--Penbat (talk) 14:48, 6 January 2011 (UTC)

have cobbelled something together on Narcisstic abuse (mainly from stuff already used elsewhere on narcissism!); will try looking for sycophancy and codependency (Watson and Holmes, maybe?) Jacobisq (talk) 05:17, 7 January 2011 (UTC)

NadaJacobisq (talk) 09:24, 7 January 2011 (UTC)

thx. If "narcissistic abuse" can be expanded any more i think it best to set it up as a new article with just a summary and link at Abuse#Narcissistic_abuse.--Penbat (talk) 15:15, 8 January 2011 (UTC)

incidentally i think Alice Miller (psychologist) refers to "narcissistic abuse" now and again.--Penbat (talk) 16:57, 9 January 2011 (UTC)

‎Narcissistic abuse now made a separate article.--Penbat (talk) 09:48, 11 January 2011 (UTC)

‎Looks to me like "narcissistic entitlement" and "narcissistic mortification" are worthy of separate articles as well.--Penbat (talk) 12:14, 11 January 2011 (UTC)

Freud seems to have used "nar. mortification" in Moses and Monotheism; Ernest Jones perhaps before, perhaps after. a new phrase to me up till yesterday, Google Books have quite a lot on it however - if only my Fenichel index went that far... Jacobisq (talk) 04:06, 12 January 2011 (UTC)

Narcissistic entitlement seems to go back to a John Murray in 1964, and to have been taken up by Kohut - maybe should start it as subentry in Narcissism? Jacobisq (talk) 04:48, 12 January 2011 (UTC)

Entitlement may be a more convenient place to try and grow a seed. We already have some types of Mortification.--Penbat (talk) 09:31, 12 January 2011 (UTC)

ref User:SuggestBot/Requests edit suggestions

Hi there are some articles listed on User:Penbat that would benefit from being beefed up from the psychology perspective so if you can help with anything that would be great. I may list a few specific things i think need doing at some point.--Penbat (talk) 15:21, 8 January 2011 (UTC)

Hey - fresh ideas for a New Year: hope you have a good one! Jacobisq (talk) 09:15, 10 January 2011 (UTC)

One thing i am trying to improve right now is the coverage of the role of defense mechanisms (denial, splitting, projection, idealization and devaluation etc) in narcissism and narcissistic personality disorder. I think text about this needs to go into the individual defense mechanism articles as well as into narcissism and narcissistic personality disorder.--Penbat (talk) 16:15, 10 January 2011 (UTC)

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Narcissism and defense mechanisms etc

Thanks for your recent work. Just to add to what i wrote before, I am trying to tighten up coverage of the different defence mechanisms with respect to narcissism by putting "narcissism" sections in the individual defence mechanism articles and maybe having a "narcissism" section in defence mechanism to explain the relationship between narcissism and defense mechanisms collectively. There is a lot of interesting material in "Thomas D Narcissism: Behind the Mask (2010)" but I am in danger of overusing it. One interesting thing it says is that a narcissist usually works through a sequence of defense mechanisms if challenged for a misdemeanor. If one doesnt work he goes onto the next - he typically tries denial first, then lies and distortion then projection and if that doesnt work he may ask a codependent to back him up. Splitting (and Idealization and devaluation) are of course also important narcissistic defense mechanisms. I am also hoping to have a decent "narcissism" section in self-esteem. --Penbat (talk) 20:45, 26 January 2011 (UTC)

Happy to help with fragments of the Grand Design where I can. Don't have access to Thomas, Kernberg seems to have stuff on Nar. defences, will keep an eye open for denial-lies-distortion nexus as I potter around...Jacobisq (talk) 03:50, 28 January 2011 (UTC)

Vaknin has this sequence - 'first he denies the facts, ignores them and distorts them...Then, he becomes enraged...Then he sinks into depression' -Malignant Self Love FAQ 60 Jacobisq (talk) 11:48, 28 January 2011 (UTC)

Seems kinda consistent with Thomas. Projection would be related to rage. I suppose the last stage would be depression if nothing worked at all for the narcissist.--Penbat (talk) 12:02, 28 January 2011 (UTC)

Vaknin also mentions projection - I get him online at books.google.com, inputing "Psychology" Vaknin to the site search box, picking Malignant self love, and then scrolling down the contents to FAQ 60: might find it interesting Jacobisq (talk) 11:01, 29 January 2011 (UTC)

Young adult (psychology) -- good work

Thank you for fixing up this article. Flyer22 (talk) 19:42, 6 March 2011 (UTC)

Misplaced loyalty

I have just started a sandbox version of "misplaced loyalty" (see User:Penbat/misplaced loyalty) which sounds to me like an interesting social psychological concept with quite a few possible literary and cultural references. If it interests yourself feel free to work on it. It may just end up being a section in loyalty but I think it may well deserve to be a separate article.--Penbat (talk) 20:02, 4 April 2011 (UTC)

Incidentally, any idea when the expression "setting up to fail" was first used (attested) and any chance you can put something in here - Setting_up_to_fail#Setting_oneself_up_to_fail ? --Penbat (talk) 20:12, 4 April 2011 (UTC)

Thanks for great work on setting up to fail. Im not sure if "misplaced loyalty" is worth doing. Anyway i dont wish to impose on your activity but it would be great if you can find time to beef up the following articles sometime this year:

• Attention seeking
• Bullying
• Destabilisation
• Exaggeration
• Mind games
• Minimisation (psychology)
• Scapegoating
• Superficial charm
• Victim blaming
• Victim playing

--Penbat (talk) 10:24, 7 April 2011 (UTC)

Always keen on new ideas/challenges, have got something from Phillips - 'The child, it should be remembered, always defends the bad parent more ferociously than the good'refAdam Phillips, On Flirtation (London 1994) p. 111ref - that might fit in with misplaced loyalty. Also a quote I half remember from CS Lewis about loyalty, but can't yet track down.... Jacobisq (talk) 10:45, 7 April 2011 (UTC)

Preadolescence

I replied on my talk page, where I proposed some questions as well. Flyer22 (talk) 13:01, 8 April 2011 (UTC)

Replied on my talk page again. Flyer22 (talk) 16:33, 9 April 2011 (UTC)

Punctuation and inline citations

Hey, Jacobisq. I just wanted to let you know that punctuations should be placed before references (not after), per MOS:REFPUNC. Flyer22 (talk) 16:28, 8 April 2011 (UTC)

I don't like it, but I guess you're right. Jacobisq (talk) 10:44, 9 April 2011 (UTC)

LOL. There are plenty of people who don't like things about the Wikipedia: Manual of Style, so you are not alone in disliking something about it. I believe you will get used to the punctuation thing, though; after some time, it will feel like the right way to do it. Flyer22 (talk) 16:33, 9 April 2011 (UTC)

Another Barnstar

You've been nominated by Penbat and I agree: MartinPoulter (talk) 14:50, 15 April 2011 (UTC)

Moving the goalposts

Just found the moving the goalposts article and it looks interesting to me. It is another of those modern phrases which has its basis in psychology. It is related to destabilisation and setting up to fail. The article currently isnt very good. There are quite a few different variations and contexts of moving the goalposts. Any chance you can beef it up ?--Penbat (talk) 20:13, 18 April 2011 (UTC)

I managed to improve it a bit and also reduce the emphasis on "moving the goalposts" as a fallacy.--Penbat (talk) 16:38, 19 April 2011 (UTC)

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Thank you

		The Modest Barnstar
		Thanks for your recent contributions! -Mike Restivo (talk) 20:15, 29 April 2011 (UTC)

Ideas for articles

Thanks very much for your ongoing excellent work. Just to suggest a few things you may be interested in looking at:

• criticism - another of those fundamental everyday words that has not received much attention from psychologists or sociologists but could do with more psychology and sociology material
• attention seeking - as per criticism
• omnipotence - article almost entirely covers religion and philosophy but nothing on omnipotence in psychology or narcissism
• malignant narcissism - not well sourced and could do with some work.

--Penbat (talk) 09:09, 28 May 2011 (UTC)

Emotional baggage

Ive started an "Emotional baggage" article in my sandbox but not got very far: User:Penbat/emotional_baggage

It seems worthy of a Wiki article and you may be interested in contributing. The expression seems to be mainly adopted as part of pop psychology but must have deep roots in academic psychology but I dont know what they are. Feel free to add if you wish to. --Penbat (talk) 10:54, 7 June 2011 (UTC)

Tantrums and Narcissistic rage

Ive seem quite a few sources linking Tantrums to Narcissistic rage where tantrums in adults are narcissistic rage and tantrums in children can also be considered to be narcissistic rage. I should be able to work on this myself but your depth of knowledge is much better than mine. Anything you can do on this would be appreciated to connect the two up in Tantrums and Narcissistic rage.--Penbat (talk) 09:41, 17 June 2011 (UTC)

Another issue that needs addressing is the relationship between self-esteem and narcissism.--Penbat (talk) 13:24, 17 June 2011 (UTC)

Incidentally i have expanded Template:Narcissism a lot.--Penbat (talk) 13:30, 17 June 2011 (UTC)

Good work on tantrum but do you have any more material on adult narcissistic tantrums other than celebrities? For example Hitler was well known for his tantrums and a certain orthopedic surgeon you may have heard about at Guys Hospital seemed to have had a narcissistic tantrum.--Penbat (talk) 18:08, 24 June 2011 (UTC)

The psychology of black clothing

Not sure if this is relevant to wikipedia or not but are you aware of any psychological significance attached to someone who almost entirely only ever wears black clothing (only rarely a bit of colour such as a coloured scarf perhaps to compromise slightly in social situations where all black might look out of place) ? I know a woman who does this who i think has a histrionic attention seeking personality type. Splitting seems to be very relevant to her personality, she is either overtly nice and flattering on some occasions, but very angry at other times and nothing in between. I am wondering if her uncompromising black clothing is related to her splitting. She never wears white but has long very attractive golden/ginger/red hair.--Penbat (talk) 20:54, 24 June 2011 (UTC)

Alison Lurie has something on The Language of Clothes, what about black as a symbol of mourning?Jacobisq (talk) 04:17, 25 June 2011 (UTC)

Thanks i will check it out. Her parents both died young so mourning might have something to do with it. The psychology of this woman is fascinating but unfortunately it would very dangerous to ask her to cooperate with delving more. incidentally parents dying young is thought to be one possible precedent of histrionic PD.--Penbat (talk) 06:36, 25 June 2011 (UTC)

Misplaced loyalty

just to let you know that I have unleashed Misplaced loyalty. --Penbat (talk) 18:58, 3 July 2011 (UTC)

Thanks, slowly knocking it into shape.... Jacobisq (talk) 10:04, 5 July 2011 (UTC)

Good work - it is shaping up nicely.--Penbat (talk) 10:06, 5 July 2011 (UTC)

Superficial charm and splitting (psychology)

I read somewhere that superficial charm amongst narcissists and psychopaths is a facet of splitting (psychology) (black and white thinking). Typical scenario is that a narcissist or psychopath piles on the superficial charm in early encounters but later switches into monster mode in later encounters. Can you add something on this connection if you have any sources ? --Penbat (talk) 16:57, 6 July 2011 (UTC)

Best I can find is from Len Sperry (2003) on the histrionic personality:'the need for excitement and attention seeking, which leads to a superficial charm and interpersonal presence...further reinforces the dissociation and denial of the real or inner self from the public self, and the cycle continues'refHandbook of diagnosis and treatment of DSM-IV-TR personality disorder/ref Not quite the psychopath switch, however - shall keep looking. Jacobisq (talk) 10:34, 7 July 2011 (UTC)

Thanks. They are nice additions to superficial charm anyway. My source was "Lavender NJ & Cavaiola AA The One-Way Relationship Workbook: Step-By-Step Help for Coping with Narcissists, Egotistical Lovers, Toxic Coworkers & Others Who Are Incredibly Self-Absorbed (2011)" which i no longer have in my possession. If i remember rightly, it just referred to charm or charisma being one facet of splitting for a narcissist, the other facet being the later controlling angry side. Anyway i just noticed Idealization and devaluation where they are explained to be the two facets of splitting. It says "idealization: a mental mechanism in which the person attributes exaggeratedly positive qualities to the self or others". So Idealization apparently kinda equates to "superficial charm".--Penbat (talk) 22:10, 9 July 2011 (UTC)

I'm trying to track down a book called Camouflaged aggression which I've got some cryptic notes on, referring to splitting and narcissists, but it's not clear if it's "splitting up" or psychological splitting! Might be useful if I can find it....Jacobisq (talk) 03:20, 10 July 2011 (UTC)

Coping (psychology), Coping skill and Coping strategies a serious mess

Coping (psychology), Coping skill and Coping strategies are important subjects but are in a serious mess and are inadequate. They also overlap each other so some reorganization may be necessary. Don't know if you can help ?--Penbat (talk) 11:30, 14 July 2011 (UTC)

I added Coping_strategies#Examples yesterday and think they are particularly useful and each of the example coping strategies could be expanded for example more info on venting and religion as a coping strategy. --Penbat (talk) 12:17, 14 July 2011 (UTC)

Tricky, tricky set! Am starting with the easiest, not sure about all the overlaps... Jacobisq (talk) 04:02, 16 July 2011 (UTC)

Looks to me like Coping (psychology) is the base article. It has a section on coping strategies (Coping_(psychology)#Coping_strategies) which links to Coping strategies for more info. I guess Coping (psychology) should also have a section on "Coping skill" which may or may not be worth linking to a separate Coping skill article. It might actually make sense to amalgamate everything into Coping (psychology) with redirects taking you there if someone types in "coping strategies" or "coping skills". --Penbat (talk) 08:23, 16 July 2011 (UTC)

Just looking at Coping skill it looks pretty worthless, completely uncited and overlaps entirely with Coping strategies and Coping (psychology). Looks like it is best ditched completely and made a redirect to one of the other 2 articles.--Penbat (talk) 08:31, 16 July 2011 (UTC)

Just made Coping skill a redirect to Coping strategies, copying over the external links first. That should make things a bit more straightforward.--Penbat (talk) 09:46, 16 July 2011 (UTC)

Good, makes things a bit more straightforward now. Problem with Coping (psychology) seems to be that someone did a "textdumpmerge" from gender differences in coping which now makes up 80% of article and has been flagged since April as needing clean-up. I can see a case maybe for re-instating the old article (which itself would then need clean-up); but I'm tempted instead to go for something I'm fairly sure I've seen done elsewhere - put most of "gender diferences" into Talk, with a much shorter,referenced synopsis in its place, and take article from there? What think you of that as a plan? If viable, should it be proposed first on Talk or what? Jacobisq (talk) 10:14, 16 July 2011 (UTC)

I should do a much shorter version of "gender diferences". No need to copy existing version to talk as old version can be viewed in the History. I would also merge all the Coping strategies material into Coping (psychology) as it is the most important part of Coping (psychology). I would just be bold and do it, the 2 of us basically agree with each other, there seems to be little momentum from others and it could take months to get others to respond. It would be a good idea though to put a link to this discussion in the editting remarks so people can see the relevant background discussion. --Penbat (talk) 11:21, 16 July 2011 (UTC)

Coping strategies now merged into Coping (psychology). Still quite a lot of tidying up needed and "gender diferences" needs shortening. I suggest any more comments between the 2 of us on this should be on Talk:Coping (psychology).--Penbat (talk) 13:14, 16 July 2011 (UTC)

Thanks very much for your work on this.--Penbat (talk) 09:02, 18 July 2011 (UTC)

"Misplaced confidence"

"Misplaced confidence" seems to be quite an interesting common expression related to misplaced loyalty. Do you think it is possible to have a similar article on "misplaced confidence"? There is overconfidence effect but it deals with overconfidence in oneself rather than others.--Penbat (talk) 19:40, 21 July 2011 (UTC)

Poking around gullibility and credulity, it might be a tight squeeze.... Jacobisq (talk) 10:33, 22 July 2011 (UTC)

Oh yes - also relates to Confidence trick. If "Misplaced confidence" is feasible it may pull a few strands together. --Penbat (talk) 11:31, 22 July 2011 (UTC)

Heather Mills

I've left your (referenced, thanks) piece in about Mills' assistant, but this, "One spent much of his time trying to turn Heather's Wikipedia entry to her favour", is strange, because I've looked through the history pages, and I found nothing untoward. Maybe Sounes means me? (God forbid... :)--andreasegde (talk) 06:57, 25 July 2011 (UTC)

Souness's notes (p. 566) read "Wikipedia manipulation: author's interview with a Mills employee who wished to speak off the record". The original quote seemed "notable" to me, given the referenced source, and the wide influence of Wiki; but if it's not in the history, maybe it's only malicious gossip. ?Move to Talk, with a link to this discussion, if you think best. Jacobisq (talk) 10:06, 27 July 2011 (UTC)

Souness has further (& better sourced) info from the Divorce Judge himself, which I personally found interesting; but maybe Wiki's coverage is already extensive enough....Jacobisq (talk) 10:06, 27 July 2011 (UTC)

Gaming the system

I only recently found out about gaming the system. It seems to me to be a very important and interesting subject with quite a few dimensions. It seems like a covert form of corruption where rules and procedures are broken but not the law of the land, whereas corruption normally involves breaking criminal law. Can you help on this ? --Penbat (talk) 11:10, 29 July 2011 (UTC)

Interesting. Have been reading something about "regulatory arbitrage" in the States which might pertain (pick your own regulator + credit crunch...) Will keep scranletting around...Jacobisq (talk) 10:15, 30 July 2011 (UTC)

Regulatory arbitrage --Penbat (talk) 10:18, 30 July 2011 (UTC)

Jurisdictional arbitrage - can of worms here ?!?Jacobisq (talk) 10:31, 30 July 2011 (UTC)

Thanks very much for your work on this. Any chance you have any sources on Talk:Gaming_the_system#Other_examples ? --Penbat (talk) 10:45, 1 August 2011 (UTC)

All tapped out - and trapped in Old Bloomsbury!.... Jacobisq (talk) 08:46, 2 August 2011 (UTC)

Self-esteem#High_self-esteem_is_not_narcissism

Please can you tighten up Self-esteem#High_self-esteem_is_not_narcissism a bit? As i understand it, a narcissist's true self has low esteem but his false self has high esteem, so the narcissist has both at the same time. Also surely there are some vain, arrogant people who just have too much self-esteem but not a core of low esteem. I read recently that a lot of cultural narcissism is caused by parents and schools being overly concerned with raising children's self-esteem when it is more important for them to learn empathy. The very next section Self-esteem#In_Buddhism refers to too much high esteem which isnt consistent with Self-esteem#High_self-esteem_is_not_narcissism.--Penbat (talk) 09:50, 12 August 2011 (UTC)

Dodgy one. Neville Symington says 'someone talking of positive narcissism may be talking about self-esteem or self-confidence. I prefer not to call that positive narcissism because I think it leads to confusion...of tongues, and the result is people are often talking at cross-purposes' Narcissism p. 8-9. May be too many different semantic usages in too small a space... Jacobisq (talk) 10:32, 12 August 2011 (UTC)

It was leading narcissism academic W. Keith Campbell who i saw in a TV interview who talked about children being given too much self-esteem instead of learning empathy. --Penbat (talk) 11:12, 12 August 2011 (UTC)

Could that go in section on Self-esteem#Grades and relationships? Jacobisq (talk) 11:19, 12 August 2011 (UTC)

Cant find the precise video on Youtube right now but this covers similar ground: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21134540/vp/30323494 --Penbat (talk) 11:20, 12 August 2011 (UTC)

I think that in theory Cultural narcissism should be developed into a new separate article to cover the effect of celebrity worship, materialism etc. --Penbat (talk) 11:51, 12 August 2011 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Narcissistic abuse

As you did 95% of the editing on Narcissistic abuse you really should have been informed about Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Narcissistic abuse. Please comment there if you wish.--Penbat (talk) 09:02, 13 August 2011 (UTC)

Thanks

Thanks for rescuing Narcissistic abuse. I would be extremely surprised if it were still deleted.

Dont know if you have seen Most popular psychology pages - it is updated every month - narcissism, for example, is incredibly popular.

Dont know if you have seen this Talk:Narcissistic_withdrawal.

--Penbat (talk) 07:03, 17 August 2011 (UTC)

Interesting business, Afd - I can see why it's become a sort of spectator sport: gladiatorial! Yes, Nar. Withdrawal has been nagging at my conscience. Now if I can only escape the Obsessive Love Wheel! Jacobisq (talk) 03:43, 18 August 2011 (UTC)

Gender narcissism

Seems like a logical idea: http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Narcissism&oldid=396136753#Gender_narcissism "Gender narcissism is a relatively new concept, referred to by Dr. Gerald Schoenwolf,[24] with reference to both males and females.

The concept builds on Freud's theories of penis envy and the castration anxiety. Chiefly that an over-emphasis or over-perception of gender and gender difference in childhood can lead to either a devaluation or an over-valuation of one's gender in later life.

Dr. Schoenwolf in particular suggests that the emergence of the feminist personality, with gonadal-centric views, and female gender narcissism are synonymous."

However the text was removed as the source was not considered particularly reliable. However it seems an obvious idea that narcissism exists at the gender level, praising one's own gender and demonizing the other gender.

Robert Stoller is the name that comes to mind on gender identity, but I only know him 2nd-3rd hand.... Jacobisq (talk) 03:39, 18 August 2011 (UTC)

Also i think group narcissism is just another word for collective narcissism.

--Penbat (talk) 07:41, 17 August 2011 (UTC)

Ive just merged group narcissism and collective narcissism but this section in particular needs some work: Collective_narcissism#Development_of_the_concept.--Penbat (talk) 14:56, 17 August 2011 (UTC)

"Superficiality"

Just thinking that "superficiality" as a psychological, sociological and cultural concept probably deserves to be created as an article.--Penbat (talk) 18:18, 21 August 2011 (UTC)

Frederic Jameson has stuff on "depth replaced by surface" in the postmodern world Jacobisq (talk) 11:25, 31 August 2011 (UTC)

Thanks. I think an article is viable but it needs quite a lot of thought as the contexts are diverse. I made an extremely modest start User:Penbat/superficiality--Penbat (talk) 11:59, 31 August 2011 (UTC)

Thanks for great work - although im scratching my head trying to decide categories for it. Looks close to being good enough for mainspace.--Penbat (talk) 11:34, 2 September 2011 (UTC)

Maybe still a bit broadbrush - needs a solid section on superficiality in education, or something similar, to ballast it, after all the PoMo! Jacobisq (talk) 11:01, 3 September 2011 (UTC)

Its a good start anyway. Ive kicked it into mainspace - make comments on Talk:Superficiality if you wish. --Penbat (talk) 11:25, 3 September 2011 (UTC)

Infighting

"Infighting" looks to be something badly covered on Wikipedia. We have group conflict but that is poorly developed and relates to both intra-group conflict (effectively infighting) and intergroup conflict (already covered in other articles such as collective narcissism). I think the existing infighting article should be renamed "infighting (martial arts)" and there should be a new "infighting" article. Not sure if group conflict is worth keeping, maybe redirect somewhere else. I think narcissism of small differences and divide and rule are relevant to infighting.--Penbat (talk) 10:36, 7 September 2011 (UTC)

Am seeing if anything can be done with group conflict. If no go, then maybe shift input to a new infighting article, as you suggest? Jacobisq (talk) 11:16, 11 September 2011 (UTC)

thanks --Penbat (talk) 11:23, 11 September 2011 (UTC)

nice work. I have made infighting a redirect to Group conflict#Intragroup conflict .28infighting.29. As another issue, also related to groups, can you suggest where "closing ranks" fits in anywhere - where group members support an individual group member who is threatened by an outsider ? Probably worth a section somewhere in an existing group-related article. --Penbat (talk) 13:36, 12 September 2011 (UTC)

?Misplaced loyalty? Jacobisq (talk) 03:49, 13 September 2011 (UTC)

Maybe In-group–out-group bias --Penbat (talk) 08:00, 13 September 2011 (UTC)

Bullying

I wouldnt blame you if you didnt want to touch it but the psychological and sociological coverage in bullying is pretty dire.--Penbat (talk) 19:48, 16 September 2011 (UTC)

Psychology of power and control

The psychology of power and control are not very good on Wikipedia. For control we have:

• control
• control freak
• locus of control
• mind control

but maybe we could do with a "control (psychology)" article to bind them together.

For power we have

• power
• power (communication)
• power (philosophy)

Maybe power (communication) could be renamed "power (psychology)" and expanded to include psychology. The politics in "power (communication) could be moved to power (politics). --Penbat (talk) 12:51, 21 September 2011 (UTC)

a double-quote symbol is missing here

Codependency#Development_and_scope_of_concept --Penbat (talk) 08:24, 26 September 2011 (UTC)

Sorry, been "on a break". Encroaching early signs of Wikiaddiction noted; may have to slack off for a fortnight or so - don't want to start seeing an Anthropomorphic Wikipedia ! Jacobisq (talk) 10:27, 26 September 2011 (UTC)

OK no problem. You well deserve a break. --Penbat (talk) 10:29, 26 September 2011 (UTC)

Winter break

Look's like a winter's break - SAD Jacobisq (talk) 08:44, 12 November 2011 (UTC)

I look forward to your return, whenever that might be.--Penbat (talk) 09:44, 12 November 2011 (UTC)

Looks like winters on GooglePlus, summers on WikiP, for my life online – assuming I can somehow sort out my copyright issues that is.... Jacobisq (talk) 03:33, 24 March 2012 (UTC)

CCI Notice

Hello, Jacobisq. This message is being sent to inform you that there currently is a discussion at Contributor copyright investigations concerning your contributions in relation to Wikipedia's copyrights policy. The listing can be found here. For some suggestions on responding, please see Responding to a CCI case. Thank you. —voidxor (talk | contrib) 07:50, 30 September 2011 (UTC)

Hello, Jacobisq. The CCI requested has not yet been opened; this is an unusual situation, and we are evaluating it.

I'm afraid that there are some real concerns, though. I appreciate that you have scrupulously footnoted your content, but I'm afraid that your use of quotations does not really conform to non-free policy and guideline. We are permitted and even encouraged to use quotations transformatively, but some of the quotations in the examples listed at the CCI seems to have been used only to convey the information. If it's simply the information we want, and we have no reason to use the non-free content, we are expected to convey it in language written from scratch by ourselves. Looking at Fixation (psychology), for instance, I see that in the opening paragraph there only seems to be five words authored by you: Fixation, subsequently, at that time. Everything else is copied from somewhere else.

It is generally preferable to paraphrase sources, unless you need to use the original language for some specific reason. If you do quote, you are required to enclose your quotes in double quotation marks as you have done on your user page (see the manual of style) or to put them into blockquote form. In addition to citing your source in footnote, you should attribute in your text. See WP:INTEXT. This can also help you see when quotation is required; if the in-text attribution seems wrong, you probably need to paraphrase instead. For example, if you would not want to write, "Fixation is, in the words of Salman Akhtar, a "concept originated by Sigmund Freud (1905a) to denote the persistence of anachronistic sexual traits"Salman Akhtar, Comprehensive Dictionary of Psychoanalysis (London 2009) p. 112" as the lead sentence of an article, then you probably should write your own definition based on those of your sources rather than using Akhtar's words.

This is an unusual situation, as it seems that probably some of your earlier articles will need some additional work to bring them in line with style and local practice in use of quotations. CCI is not really engineered for that, but this does seem to be work that needs doing. I see that you are on a Wikibreak; do you have the time to undertake the work without the need of a CCI? --Moonriddengirl ^(talk) 14:12, 6 October 2011 (UTC)

The articles have been listed at User:Jacobisq/Article list. They are prioritized by the articles to which you've contributed most. I had a glance at the first article in the list and see that it does seem to use non-free content in the manner of concern. User:Penbat has kindly offered to help review some of these, but I hope that you will be able to assist to bring this in line with our approach to non-free material. I would much prefer not to have to list this at CCI as, again, this is not really what that process is for. --Moonriddengirl ^(talk) 14:00, 4 December 2011 (UTC)

Hi Moonriddengirl – thanks for the messages. Apologies for the delay in responding – still only slowly winding down the lightbox after my seasonal discontent, don't you know. I am naturally sorry to gather that I may have been unwittingly contravening Wikipedia's fair use policy; and will do what I can to help set matters straight.

As a wiki user, I myself prefer paginated quotations which can be checked for accuracy, to unpaginated paraphrases (which can't). As an editor, I tended to favor providing referenced quotes for the more sceptical reader, while at the same time attempting to integrate them as seamlessly as possible into the text to preserve the information flow for the casual user. Whether or not defensible as a stylistic strategy, it didn't of course always work out right. If, as I now gather, it tended even at best to shade (at least) Wikipedia's copyright policies, it is obviously high time to trade it in for a more normative approach, along the lines you were kind enough to sketch out for me last autumn. Pending further feedback, revisiting my old edits in the light of the considerations raised above may be a useful way of easing myself back towards a 'wiki' frame of mind. Jacobisq (talk) 03:39, 24 March 2012 (UTC)

Hi Jacobisq, nice to see you back. I look forward to interacting with you again soon but for now I'd better gently let you find your feet.--Penbat (talk) 06:48, 24 March 2012 (UTC)

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Microculture talk page templates

I reviewed this article, and removed it from the category of new unreviewed articles. I added two templates to the talk page, but I am unsure about adding some others, such as Anthropology. Please consider adding talk page templates to any page you create, and in this instance, please consider adding any other relevant templates. --DThomsen8 (talk) 00:01, 22 May 2012 (UTC)

Hi, thanks for the templates. Is there a useful link for talk page templates? I do categories, but haven't graduated to talk page templates yet.....(!) Jacobisq (talk) 09:42, 22 May 2012 (UTC)

Talk page templates include a variety of templates for messages and other concerns, but mainly I am concerned with WikiProject templates, which result in the appropriate projects having awareness of articles in their area of concern. The following table shows Anthropology articles by quality or type (left side) and importance (across the top).

Anthropology articles by quality and importance
Quality	Importance
	Top	High	Mid	Low	NA	???	Total
FA		1		4		24	29
FL						2	2
A						1	1
GA	5	15	24	45		84	173
B	18	78	101	159		514	870
C	36	114	201	531		1,142	2,024
Start	10	88	211	1,027		2,352	3,688
Stub		8	50	496		1,018	1,572
List	2	4	9	61		161	237
Category					1,389		1,389
Disambig					45		45
File					52		52
Portal					1		1
Project					14		14
Template			1		98		99
NA		5	17	39	149		210
Other					28		28
Assessed	71	313	614	2,362	1,776	5,298	10,434
Unassessed						94	94
Total	71	313	614	2,362	1,776	5,392	10,528
WikiWork factors (?)		ω = 38,925			Ω = 4.66

Click on any of the numbers on the table, and you will see a list of articles, and also you will see on the left of the page Wikipedia Release Version Tools a menu with tools and other choices.

When I see an article like Microculture and I am not quite sure what Wikiproject projects will be appropriate, I look for other articles, perhaps from links in the article or in articles in the categories at the bottom, and then I look at the talk page templates there. Even though you create an article, you can add the appropriate WikiProject templates to your article, with quality (class=) and importance (importance=). Many WikiProject projects have explanations of how to assess quality and importance. --DThomsen8 (talk) 16:50, 22 May 2012 (UTC)

Interesting. Picking a Wikiproject is a bit like a category perhaps; but assessing quality/importance I'll have to do some poking around on, not seen anything on that yet. Jacobisq (talk) 11:03, 23 May 2012 (UTC)

Info on psychology quality/importance http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Psychology/Assessment --Penbat (talk) 11:17, 23 May 2012 (UTC)

Hm, certainly food for thought.... Jacobisq (talk) 09:42, 24 May 2012 (UTC)

If you are not sure about quality/importance its ok to leave it blank such as {{WikiProject Psychology|class=|importance=}} --Penbat (talk) 10:02, 24 May 2012 (UTC)

Can you help on these?

It would be useful if you could help on these:

• attention seeking - an everyday expression that urgently needs some psychological meat. The "styles" section contains some interesting material but the source is poor.
• personality clash - an everyday expression that surely deserves a wiki article. It is sometimes used as a blame-shifter in bullying cases although im sure the concept is valid in other contexts. Maybe some combinations of Myers-briggs personality types are thought of as likely to cause personality clashes.
• compulsive talking - i have come across quite a few compulsive talkers in my time but i have found little relevant academic research. It would be interesting to do - i suspect there are several different possible pathologies. i have started something on this here: User:Penbat/compulsive talking.

Keep up the good work.--Penbat (talk) 11:36, 17 June 2012 (UTC)

Certainly a lot of references to personality clash in a quick Wiki search. I see psychology Today had an article - might be a useful starting-point. Jacobisq (talk) 11:15, 18 June 2012 (UTC)

I guess that two people with big egos (narcissists maybe) are likely to have personality clashes. Might relate to counterdependency.--Penbat (talk) 12:06, 18 June 2012 (UTC)

Homosociality and heterosociality

Hi, I see you were a major contributor to the Homosociality article.

Do you think you could take a stab at improving Heterosociality, or do you know anyone else who might be able to? — Smjg (talk) 12:26, 23 June 2012 (UTC

Interesting: will have a look-see. Jacobisq (talk) 09:59, 24 June 2012 (UTC)

OK, thanks for your additions. However, the addition of it as a "see also" link to various pages looks at first sight like link-spamming - maybe it's my lack of knowledge of the subjects, but I guess if you could add information to those pages on the subjects' connections with heterosociality and incorporate the link into this information then it would be better. — Smjg (talk) 22:09, 25 June 2012 (UTC)

Emotional baggage

Hi, welcome back from your break. Just to draw your attention to the fact that an attempt is being made to delete Emotional baggage. If you think it is worth keeping, please follow the instructions at the start of Emotional baggage.--Penbat (talk) 07:16, 23 July 2012 (UTC)

Thanks very much for your efforts on this.--Penbat (talk) 13:15, 24 July 2012 (UTC)

My stuff did need some pruning! Jacobisq (talk) 10:20, 25 July 2012 (UTC)

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Narcissistic defences

just to draw your attention to the fact that User:SMcCandlish has picked up on quotation issues in Narcissistic defences --Penbat (talk) 09:37, 4 September 2012 (UTC)

Good-oh! Technical problems computer-wise, hope to be sorted tomorrow.....Jacobisq (talk) 11:16, 5 September 2012 (UTC)

Cheers, i just spotted Tantrum as well. --Penbat (talk) 12:07, 5 September 2012 (UTC)

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Mind games

Dont know if i can tempt you to do some dequoting etc on mind games ? It is also in my opinion a very interesting subject.--Penbat (talk) 13:18, 19 October 2012 (UTC)

Beginning to wind down for the winter, but I'll certainly have a look/see Jacobisq (talk) 09:47, 20 October 2012 (UTC)

Thanks very much for working on this. Incidentally please dont lose sight of the objective over the long term, say over the next 12 months, of clearing your dequote list User:Jacobisq/Article list set up by User:Moonriddengirl as per User_talk:Jacobisq#CCI_Notice.--Penbat (talk) 10:40, 23 October 2012 (UTC)

Longterm....Jacobisq (talk) 11:07, 23 October 2012 (UTC)

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Winter break

Logging off with the clock change Jacobisq (talk) 09:45, 27 October 2012 (UTC)

Jacobisq (talk) 10:41, 30 March 2013 (UTC)

Welcome back.--Penbat (talk) 10:52, 30 March 2013 (UTC)

Nomination of Social reality for deletion

A discussion is taking place as to whether the article Social reality is suitable for inclusion in Wikipedia according to Wikipedia's policies and guidelines or whether it should be deleted.

The article will be discussed at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Social reality until a consensus is reached, and anyone is welcome to contribute to the discussion. The nomination will explain the policies and guidelines which are of concern. The discussion focuses on high-quality evidence and our policies and guidelines.

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t-shirt

I thought that you deserved something a bit extra for all of the amazing work you've done for the project. I've nominated you for a gift from the Wikimedia Foundation!

Penbat (talk) 15:55, 27 December 2012 (UTC)

You have mail!

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Regarding a t-shirt nomination :) Jalexander--WMF 02:43, 1 January 2013 (UTC)

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Help with an an emerging psychological topic area

I noticed you have a deep and broad background in psychology as well as some interest in finance, including a quote from Timothy Geithner and some editing work on Financial capitalism.

The Financial crisis of 2007–2008 involved considerable panic, fear and contagion. Yet there has not been much forensic psychological research or analysis on what may have happened during those times of stress, especially inside the minds of the key decision makers. Averting future trouble may require much better understanding of the behavioral and social facets of such phenomena.

see Category:Behavioral and social facets of systemic risk

I'm looking for more possible psych topics that might inform research in that area, particularly anything from the "deep" psychoanalytical areas. I saw you have edited topics such as psychotic break, Preconscious, Disenchantment, narcissistic defences, Shame, Compartmentalization (psychology), Paranoid anxiety, Alarmism, etc.

Wondering if you could review some of the topics listed under Category:Behavioral and social facets of systemic risk and offer any potentially interesting contributions from the psychoanalytical, object relations, personality disorders, Jung, Klein, Winnicot, Bion, Kernberg, Lacan or any other similar areas? Would love to tap that broad background you have for thought starters. Rick (talk) 04:55, 15 April 2013 (UTC)

Certainly something I'm interested in, but I don't know if "deep" psa has really been brought into much contact with financial decision making as such (NOR!). Certainly worth some digging though.... Jacobisq (talk) 10:44, 15 April 2013 (UTC)

Happened to notice an off the wall suggestion http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/shortcuts/2013/apr/15/cocaine-bankers-global-financial-crisis?CMP=twt_gu which i suggest compounded the narcissism and psychopathy of bankers.--Penbat (talk) 15:01, 15 April 2013 (UTC)

Thanks for the comments. Having been a portfolio manager through 2007-2008 responsible for peoples retirement savings I can tell you it was like flying into the Bermuda triangle. Suddenly all your dials are spinning and you can't trust any of the gauges. You had to look out the window to find the horizon and even that wasn't certain. After that I read some of Klein and started to think about Paranoid anxiety, Depressive anxiety and object relations splitting in the financial community itself. Then read some Bion and "upsizing" object relations theory from individuals to groups. There is likely more psychoanalytical material that might be highly relevant?

The entire global financial markets are dominated by relatively few people. Perhaps a dozen banks, each with a single highrise of employees in NY, London and Hong Kong. Throw in the top 100 or so funds (large mutual funds and very leveraged hedge funds) and its a pretty small group of "like minded" individuals. Talented traders strike me as having some traits in common with cerebral narcissists, antisocials (empathy deficit), paranoids, borderlines, and schizophrenics. To the extent the key market participants have some common personality disorders you will have periodic financial market disruptions that are very harsh. If various psych disorders were sort of randomly distributed that would be best. However, if there are common disorders that concentration would in itself be a significant systemic risk. When real world conditions aggravate a common disorder they all move into unexpected / chaotic behavior in unison, greatly exacerbating the difficulties. Once that chaotic state is entered it takes a very long time for everything to calm down, nerves to reset, and for a return to a generally trusted, calm situation.

The cocaine connection is also very interesting. Have seen fMRI studies linking the pain of lost love with the same brain regions associated with cocaine addiction. Lets face it, the large banks and funds are indeed in love with money, so being under the fear of loosing it might be a similar reaction...

• American Physiological Society (2005) “Love’s All in the Brain;” retrieved September 10, 2010 from eurekalert.com.
• Heussner, K. M. (2010) “Addicted to Love? It’s not you, it’s your brain;” retrieved September 11, 2010 from abc.news.com.
• James, J. (2010) “Study suggests love and drug addiction activate same regions of the brain;” Stanford Medicine Scope: Neuroscience; retrieved September 10, 2010 from sandford.edu.

Reminds me of the Robert Palmer tune, Addicted to Love...

Your lights are on, but you're not home

Your mind is not your own

Your heart sweats, your body shakes

Another kiss is what it takes

You can't sleep, you can't eat

There's no doubt, you're in deep

Your throat is tight, you can't breathe

Another kiss is all you need

Whoa, you like to think that you're immune to the stuff, oh yeah

It's closer to the truth to say you can't get enough

You know you're gonna have to face it, you're addicted to love

Just swap out the love for money and you have a pretty good picture of 2007-2008 or the excitement of the JPM Whale trades... lol

Good student level draft article on Emotional Contagion
Rick (talk) 02:37, 16 April 2013 (UTC)

This is relevant Personality_disorders#Occupational_functioning --Penbat (talk) 06:48, 16 April 2013 (UTC)

Something on cognitive dissonance in Bears and Bulls.....Jacobisq (talk) 09:43, 16 April 2013 (UTC)

In complete or in incomplete opposition?

Hi Jacobisq! I noticed that in British Independent Group (psychoanalysis), you had written the following sentence: "Winnicott was ... and as such in incomplete opposition to both classical analysis and Kleinian theory." Now an ip-editor changed this into in complete opposition. I don't have access to the source, but I guess you do, so could you check if the oppposition was complete or incomplete? Thank you!

Don't currently have access to Rycroft's Critical Dictionary myself. Have to say, the "in incomplete opposition" looks like a typo to me now, and the correction probably correct....Jacobisq (talk) 10:39, 15 April 2013 (UTC)

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Columns

Why create 3 columns for 4 links?[1] Kaldari (talk) 23:27, 30 May 2013 (UTC)

Pour encourager les autres Jacobisq (talk) 09:26, 31 May 2013 (UTC)

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Grandiosity

See Grandiosity & Talk:Grandiosity --Penbat (talk) 10:06, 17 June 2013 (UTC)

Thanks very much. If you don't mind, projective identification and psychological projection need some work as well.--Penbat (talk) 20:14, 17 June 2013 (UTC)

I agree psychological projection, and especially projective identification are ripe topics for better in-depth clarification, Wikipedia encyclopedia style. Would be great to get a total top down, historical, evolutionary prospective, trace from the origin up through modern. Perhaps even a dedicated history or evolution of thought type section? Coverage that would trace the origins through today, including all the major seminal references.

Have these concepts indeed morphed? Evolved? Become impossibly diffuse today? Great thinking in the 30s-50s then sort of died off in terms of overall general interest? Are there high quality current psychoanalytic theorists continuing to refine and evolve these concepts? Any more recent updates that perhaps cross over into findings in modern neuropsychology, fMRI, etc.?

What might be ideal is to get someone with really broad prospective (perhaps someone like [[2]]) to frame in the full structure, and reference all the truly seminal works (i.e. "highly original and influencing the development of future events"). I'm thinking "number of citations" after publication, or a similar metric for the seminal works. After that others could fill in additional material within that sound, total infrastructure. Rick (talk) 13:56, 20 June 2013 (UTC)

It would be better to have this sort of discussion on the article talk pages rather than on user pages eg Talk:Psychological_projection#transference_.26_counter-transference.--Penbat (talk) 14:10, 20 June 2013 (UTC)

Sources

Hi Jacobisq and thank you for all your good work that I find in many articles! However, I see that your citations sometimes are incomplete, for instance: <ref>Segal, p. 89</ref> Now in a previous citation you have stated the full name and year of the book, so I can see what book you mean. However, it can always happen that another editor comes along, changes your text while using another source, erasing your full citation, and thereby making it very unclear what you referred to when you wrote "Segal, p. 89".
So I would like to kindly ask you to always use full citations, making sure that each citation can stand on its own feet so to say. With friendly regards, Lova Falk talk 14:51, 19 June 2013 (UTC)

Full citations for every ref? Is doable, I suppose. What's the policy on this? Ah, I see Help:Shortened footnotes only allows them with an anchor, not mixed in with other refs without anchor.....Live and learn.....Jacobisq (talk) 09:59, 20 June 2013 (UTC)

Hi Jacobisq! Could you please have a look at this version of Ego psychology? As you can see, your first mention of Erikson's book was edited away, so the other reference to his book was incomplete, which got noticed on the talk page. Fortunately, I found the full reference in the History, so I could make the reference complete. This is just what I meant above... With kind regards! Lova Falk talk 10:20, 28 September 2013 (UTC)

Summer break

Jacobisq (talk) 08:46, 23 June 2013 (UTC)

Have a good holiday! Lova Falk talk 10:32, 23 June 2013 (UTC)

Same from me!--Penbat (talk) 13:31, 23 June 2013 (UTC)

Welcome back !--Penbat (talk) 10:42, 16 August 2013 (UTC)

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• While based on Freud's concept of [psychological projection]],<ref>[http://www.melanie-klein-trust.org.uk/projective-identification Projective identification]</
• is not only a way of getting rid of feelings but also of getting help with them.<ref>ref>Patrick Casement, ''Further Learning from the Patient'' (London 1990) p. 98-9</ref>

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18.8.13:Return

- indeed, seem to be already editing! Jacobisq (talk) 10:47, 16 August 2013 (UTC)

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If you dont mind......

....can you have a go at Talk:Psychological_projection#transference_.26_counter-transference? Cheers. --Penbat (talk) 19:54, 21 August 2013 (UTC)

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Anthropomorphism in psychology

Could you please fix this incomplete citation you added in April? Thanks. --bender235 (talk) 15:23, 6 September 2013 (UTC)

Would if I could....Jacobisq (talk) 10:11, 7 September 2013 (UTC)

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Jest book

Thanks very much for creating the article. It's OK but a bit bare, possibly needing more about English-language examples. There's an ecyclopaedic article here that you might find useful. Mzilikazi1939 (talk) 14:51, 24 September 2013 (UTC)

Certainly needs fleshing out, but that's what wiki-editors are for! Many hands make light work! Agree the Bartleby article is useful, but you will find it (and another Bartleby chapter) referenced in the notes/external links: both might well be mined for further input by the next editor to take up the chain....Jacobisq (talk) 10:00, 25 September 2013 (UTC)

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Article focus

Hey, Jacobisq. Looking at your latest edit history (September-October), I see that you currently aren't focusing only on psychology articles. You're even editing literature articles these days. Any significant reason for the broadening of your scope, such as boredom with mainly editing psychology articles or rather a more genuine interest in editing other topics?

One bit of advice I impart to you is that, per MOS:PARAGRAPHS, "Short paragraphs and single sentences generally do not warrant their own subheading." And remember to use bullet-point formatting when you create a See also section. I state those things because I've noticed that you create a heading or subheading for a single sentence or a few sentences, and have created See also sections without bullet points for the article listings.

Either way, you are obviously still doing good work around here. And it's nice to see you again.

I'll see you around. Flyer22 (talk) 11:41, 13 October 2013 (UTC)

Variety is the spice of life! LOL Jacobisq (talk) 08:40, 14 October 2013 (UTC)

Actually, yesterday I realized that you are mainly focusing on psychology and/or sexology when working on sex articles. Those are certainly aspects that should be covered, but you should be careful with the heading aspect (per what I stated above) and with regard to adding outdated material and/or outdated sources. Let's take the Mammary intercourse article, for example; you sourced a great deal of it to Alex Comfort, and this link shows three issues I had with your edits to that article. Furthermore, the "infantile sexuality" and "castration anxiety" text was queried by a different editor on the talk page. I feel that you should consider answering that question, whether you know if the text is "specifically talking about mammary intercourse and is rather just talking about obsession with the breasts" or not. If you don't know, we can at least then err on the side of caution and remove that sentence. And there's this instance that I reverted the previous hour at the Sex position article; this addition has a place in that article, but not in the lead. Per WP:Lead, it doesn't belong in the lead because it (meaning specifically either report) is not a significant aspect discussed lower in the article. I've added it to the "Number of positions, and effects on physical abilities" section, where the question as to how many sex positions there are is already addressed (as that link shows, I tweaked the heading that existed for that information; I also added a comma to the heading afterward so that the word "number" is not taken to mean "number of effects on physical abilities" as well).

Basically, what I am mean by this visit to your talk page is that, given appropriate sources (non-sex guide sources are often better) found on Google Books, Google Scholar or in a local library for these sex topics, there is no valid reason to support sex information to such outdated sources, unless, like you did at the Anal eroticism article (though that article is currently still too short for subsections), you are using those sources to specifically source those people's views. You should be careful not to assign WP:Undue weight to these views or to make the views seem valid if they are debated or highly debated. Sigmund Freud's theories have mostly been discredited, for example, and that goes double (or triple and beyond) with regard to his theories/views on sexuality. I'm asking you to be more careful with regard to your contributions to sex articles. Flyer22 (talk) 13:30, 20 October 2013 (UTC)

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Winter break - Clock change/SAD

Jacobisq (talk) 10:10, 26 October 2013 (UTC)

Jacobisq (talk) 10:59, 30 March 2014 (UTC)

Malignant narcissism

Hi Jacobisq! Hopefully, when you read this, the winter has passed and the spring is blooming. Anyway, I edited Malignant narcissism and checked the source for the opening sentence: Malignant narcissism has been described as 'an extreme form of antisocial personality disorder that is manifest in a person who is pathologically grandiose, lacking in conscience and behavioral regulation, and with characteristic demonstrations of joyful cruelty and sadism'. I found the book at google books but even though I really looked very hard, I couldn't find this quote anywhere - and nothing that even looked like it. So I removed the quote and added a cn-tag. I also checked History and saw that you had added the sentence. Could you have found the quote in another book? Kind regards, Lova Falk talk 20:17, 12 November 2013 (UTC

Spring has sprung, but I agree that there is something wrong with the opening quote, "characteristic demonstrations of joyful cruelty and sadism" reappearing further down the page at source 5, for example.Might it be better to replace the whole quote with a more sober synopsis of what is later to come?Jacobisq (talk) 11:38, 30 March 2014 (UTC)

Welcome back

Please can you do some dequoting in megalomania, thanks.--Penbat (talk) 11:17, 30 March 2014 (UTC)

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Abusive control, abusive power, abusive isolation

Hi. Ive just been conversing with User:CaroleHenson who is currently doing a lot of work on domestic violence etc - see User talk:CaroleHenson#Control.2C power.2C isolation and terrorism. It does look as if Wikipedia is seriously lacking articles on control, power and isolation from the abuse perspective and probably it is a good idea to have abusive control, abusive power and abusive isolation articles. It is primarily about abuse at the interpersonal level. User:CaroleHenson is obviously expert from a domestic violence perspective but there are also other perspectives which you have been involved with such as mind games. I dont know if you can help ? Anyway it would be useful to have some sort of historical psychological analysis of what Freud etc made of the concepts of power, control and isolation for a bad purpose. Also how does one differentiate power from control ? Its a tough job but it does look like a gaping hole in Wikipedia. We do have mind control but it is mainly about cold war brainwashing and cults although in mind control#Other areas there is a reference made relating brainwashing to child sexual abuse and parental abuse. There is also control freak, control (management) and locus of control. There is also control by using psychological manipulation.--Penbat (talk) 20:23, 16 April 2014 (UTC)

Gaslighting? Cult? Charivari? Jacobisq (talk) 10:21, 18 April 2014 (UTC)

yes gaslighting definitely relevant, cult not so relevant as it is at the group level, not sure about charivari.--Penbat (talk) 10:27, 18 April 2014 (UTC)

Emotional blackmail

If you wouldn't mind, i've just noticed that emotional blackmail would benefit from some dequoting.--Penbat (talk) 20:41, 18 April 2014 (UTC)

Just spotted that setting up to fail would benefit from dequoting as well.--Penbat (talk) 21:42, 19 April 2014 (UTC)

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True self and false self

Can you do some dequoting on true self and false self ? Thanks.--Penbat (talk) 21:09, 29 April 2014 (UTC)

....and minimisation (psychology).--Penbat (talk) 21:08, 30 April 2014 (UTC)

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Your submission at Articles for creation: Aniella Jaffe (May 10)

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Lie#Psychology, praise and attention seeking

Lie#Psychology, praise and attention seeking are in quite poor shape. Don't know if you can help?--Penbat (talk) 08:35, 11 May 2014 (UTC)

Looks like narcissistic supply would benefit from some dequoting.--Penbat (talk) 11:29, 18 May 2014 (UTC)

Thanks for your excellent work. Can you do some detagging on narcissistic parent ?--Penbat (talk) 13:36, 23 May 2014 (UTC)

Lacanian movement and Lacanianism

Dear Jacobisq, The two articles, Lacanian movement and Lacanianism, look very much the same and both don't seem clear enough. I would suggest, as it was suggested to me by another contributor that a) a merge would be advisable and b) the article should stay with what Lacan say and did checking with other sources as well (not only Roudinesco but Jacques-Alain Miller and the ECF). Also I think that It should deal with more rigor Lacanian theory. Best, Dariovitori — Preceding unsigned comment added by Dariovitori (talk • contribs) 21:34, 26 May 2014 (UTC)

Fair enough, go for it.... Jacobisq (talk) 10:03, 27 May 2014 (UTC)

Cognitive distortion as a defense mechanism.

Cognitive distortion as a defense mechanism looks unbalanced to me. The article portrays it as negative emotions to do with depression and anxiety. However I believe it can be positive or negative and that cognitive distortion is the psychological underpinning for Spin (public relations) by dysfunctional people. I believe that it is basically exaggeration or minimisation (psychology) of facts. In narcissistic defences, cognitive distortion is identified as a narcissistic defence.--Penbat (talk) 18:37, 30 May 2014 (UTC)

My stuff on cognitive distortion (Gilbert, Overcoming Depression) is mainly on the depressive, not narcissistic front....Google books have got something on 'all-or-nothing' thinking in narcissists that might be useful however - http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=77ns6ogV8qoC&pg=PA169&dq=%22Cognitive+distortion%22+narcissism&hl=en&sa=X&ei=T7KJU5fxDofiOpahgcgM&ved=0CDMQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=%22Cognitive%20distortion%22%20narcissism&f=false - if the link works! Jacobisq (talk) 10:47, 31 May 2014 (UTC)

Cheers. Incidentally i notice the following would benefit from some dequoting: sadness, rationalization (making excuses), history of narcissism, fantasy (psychology).--Penbat (talk) 11:23, 31 May 2014 (UTC)

June 2014

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Psychopathic parent, good enough parent and victim derogation

Can i interest you in doing articles on psychopathic parent, good enough parent and victim derogation ? The psychopathic parent article would be like a sister article to narcissistic parent.--Penbat (talk) 14:07, 14 June 2014 (UTC)

Summer hols

Jacobisq (talk) 09:07, 21 June 2014 (UTC)

Jacobisq (talk) 09:29, 16 August 2014 (UTC)

:-) --Penbat (talk) 09:32, 16 August 2014 (UTC)

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August 2014

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moral blindness

does "moral blindness" grab you as a worthwhile topic for a shortish new Wiki article ? --Penbat (talk) 22:14, 4 September 2014 (UTC)

It's a thought. I seem to remember George Eliot saying we are all born in moral blindness....might be a starting-point Jacobisq (talk) 09:50, 5 September 2014 (UTC)

Anther one is "victim derogation".--Penbat (talk) 15:31, 5 September 2014 (UTC)

I removed the link Jacobisq added to the ethics of care article because there isn't an article for moral blindness yet. Let me know if that's no longer the case.
Huxley G (talk) 16:56, 8 September 2014 (UTC)

Tie up between cognitive dissonance, projection & narcissistic rage?

It looks to me like cognitive dissonance is a general purpose concept and the text in cognitive dissonance just seems to describe benign outcomes. But surely where cognitive dissonance happens in dysfunctional people the temptation would be to offload the dissonance onto somebody else using psychological projection and narcissistic rage and narcissistic injury. If so I think it would be a good idea to tie these articles together more closely.--Penbat (talk) 11:22, 17 September 2014 (UTC)

Projection in cognitive dissonance theory seems to be different from PSA usage, in that ii involves projection onto the liked - onto in-group, not out-group:

http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=bTp-dfS4_q4C&pg=PA205&dq=%22cognitive+dissonance%22+projection&hl=en&sa=X&ei=LZUaVLKHNqef7Ab584DQDw&ved=0CCAQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=%22cognitive%20dissonance%22%20projection&f=false

If the sources haven't integrated the theories....?Jacobisq (talk) 08:34, 18 September 2014 (UTC)

Also many of the outcomes given in cognitive dissonance just seem to be rationalizations yet i cant even see a mention of rationalization in cognitive dissonance. So it looks like rationalization and cognitive dissonance need tying up as well but there is some tie up here: Rationalization_(making_excuses)#Cognitive_dissonance.--Penbat (talk) 18:25, 18 September 2014 (UTC)

Psychology_of_self#Winnicott.27s_selves

You've dequoted Donald Winnicott and True self and false self. This (Psychology_of_self#Winnicott.27s_selves) is a closely related spin-off summary that i think also needs dequoting.--Penbat (talk) 20:09, 28 September 2014 (UTC)

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