Talk:Whakaari / White Island

Number of 1914 casualties

There seems to be contradictory information about the number of miners killed in the 1914 eruption. Googling for Whakaari 1914 turns up claims for either 10 ([1], [2]), 11 ([3], [4]) or 12 ([5], [6]) deaths. Does anyone know of an authoritative reference that could settle the matter? —Ilmari Karonen (talk) 18:45, 7 January 2006 (UTC)

I am doing a school project on this volcano, and the New Zealand Institute of Geological and Nucleur Sciences believes it was 12 - it seems quite offical. Also there is contradictory information about whether it was a lahar, or a landslide. One thing that is consitent is that the landslide/lahar was due to part of the crater rim collasping. The Institute And about the name- White Island/Whakaari. White Island is far more commonly used, not many people know the Maori name, it is known as White Island. Interesting links, I see you have one link that is from gns too, which is odd as the one I have notes that it was 12 people. It says /newwhitei.html too, though I do not know if that makes a difference.[7] -- Holly nz 08:07, 9 March 2006 (UTC)

The NZ Geographic article I just referenced in our article says 10 were killed in the 1914 landslide event, and that two other miners were killed beforehand in separate incidents after the mining started again in 1913. (One died of burns when a large retort exploded due to corrosion; the other disappeared and only his boots were ever found.) Perhaps the range from 10 to 12 in other sources reflects confusion over when these two died. -- Avenue 11:14, 9 March 2006 (UTC)

The most detailed account I have found so far is here. It lists all ten of the victims by name, and gives dates for the main events around the eruption. It doesn't have a big organisation's name behind it, but it seems believable to me. I will change the main article accordingly. -- Avenue 08:45, 18 March 2006 (UTC)

A further note: the author credited at the link above is Kevin Boon, also the author of a number of books for young people on NZ history topics, including The eruption on White Island, Wellington, N.Z. : Kotuku Publishing, c1994. -- Avenue (talk) 07:51, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

Official name

What is the official name of the island? Is it Whakaari/White Island, with the slash as linz.govt.nz has, does it have two acceptable names, or is it Whakaari (White Island) as Te Ara seems to have it?-gadfium 08:14, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

Its official name was changed from "White Island (Whakaari)" to "Whakaari/White Island" in 1997. Here are the details from the New Zealand Gazette - Te Kahiti o Aotearoa, 12 June 1997, page 1403, notice number 3920:

Name: Whakaari/White Island

Description: Island in the Bay of Plenty. Topographic Map 260 W15 & W13/14 Whakatane, GR 800005 (W13/14). Currently known as White Island (Whakaari).

You can search these notices online at http://notices.gazette.govt.nz/. -- Avenue (talk) 02:55, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

Most active?

Intro says; most active cone volcano.

None of the other volcanoes’ articles says which is most active, nor even if they are cone volcanoes. Not cited at List of volcanoes in New Zealand or Volcanology of New Zealand either.

So is it the most active volcano, too? MBG02 (talk) 10:25, 23 September 2018 (UTC)

Where’s Dino?

Maybe no one on Wikipedia remembers 2004, but the appearance of Dino the Dinosaur in front of one of the White Island webcams (on an uninhabited, restricted island) was avidly watched and one of the more clever internet pranks of the time. It’s the first introduction to this area of the world for many in NA and Europe. Sad that it’s missing. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.130.77.141 (talk) 00:03, 30 January 2019 (UTC)

In Popular Culture, add this category

This is a information about the Island, The information to share is that in The Chronicles of Narnia more specifically The Voyage of the Dawn Treader is that in its movie Whakari, was used for Dragon Island and should be recognized because it is a film location for the particular movie. Largo96 (talk) 20:30, 31 January 2019 (UTC)

East Coast?

Article intro says the island is off the east coast of North Island. Google Maps and my atlas clearly show it's off the north coast. 70.73.90.119 (talk) 14:25, 10 December 2019 (UTC)

Look again. It is in the bay, but it is east of the Northland Peninsula. Vici Vidi (talk) 08:11, 11 December 2019 (UTC)

Is Whakaari/White Island an Important Bird Area?

The page currently states that it is. But tThe citation doesn't go to a direct page, only the homepage of BirdLife International. I couldn't find the 2012 document that the citation refers to. I also found this page in the site - http://datazone.birdlife.org/site/search - for searching a list of Important Bird Areas. While it gives 165 results for New Zealand, neither Whakaari nor White Island appear in that list. HenryCrun15 (talk) 20:28, 10 December 2019 (UTC)

Most islands off of NZ are nesting sites for endemic species, often because they don't have introduced European species that poach on the nesting sites. However, in this case the frequent eruptions may also wipe out the flightless endemic birds. Needs a source. --Vici Vidi (talk) 08:08, 11 December 2019 (UTC)

Article title

It is my understanding that Whakaari/White Island is the official name of this island. However, Wikipedia convention is to go with the more commonly used name per WP:COMMONNAME. A Google search gives 47,100,000 results for White Island versus 9,380,000 results for Whakaari. White Island is the preferred name according to these results. Volcanoguy 23:10, 10 December 2019 (UTC)

Are there any other “White Islands” which come up in the search? Onceinawhile (talk) 06:19, 11 December 2019 (UTC)

I'm sure quite a few of those "White Island" results were for other islands. It's in particular worth noting that 45% of your search for "White Island"'s most popular 20 site results used the "Whakaari/White Island" form of the name in the title or prominently in the text. What's more, given that the official renaming is quite recent, a lot of older sources would only have the older name. This would bias ghits towards the White Island form. Grutness...wha? 02:33, 18 December 2019 (UTC)

This is a very cumbersome name with the slash. Choosing one of them would be easier on the eyes. --Vici Vidi (talk) 08:05, 11 December 2019 (UTC)

There is a “White Island” in the Ross Archipelago, Antarctica, which is also a volcano. Paul H. (talk) 13:42, 11 December 2019 (UTC)

Yes but not as well-known as the one in Bay of Plenty. Volcanoguy 19:12, 11 December 2019 (UTC)

It's not even the only White Island in New Zealand. I can see another one out of my living room window. Grutness...wha? 02:33, 18 December 2019 (UTC)

The page cant be called "White Island" because there are a lot of White Islands. Besides, this is the official name, so it has the necessary disambiguation. What would you propose it be called? White Island (New Zealand)? Theres one in Otago. There's no better title for this.  Nixinova  T C   21:30, 13 December 2019 (UTC)

This cumbersome title is why WP:COMMONNAME should trump local bureaucratese. —  AjaxSmack  01:02, 12 December 2019 (UTC)

The current title has nothing going for it except perhaps political correctness. White Island (Bay of Plenty) or simply Whakaari would be possibilities IMO. White Island (New Zealand) is ambiguous because of White Island (Otago). I tend to Whakaari but it has an interesting history which probably contains contributions that have been incorporated into the current text, end if so this history needs to be preserved under our copyleft obligations. And it's quite a lot of work to find out.

So pragmatically, let's simply move it to White Island (Bay of Plenty) and discuss further in need.

The other thing to bear in mind is, this isn't a unique situation, see List of dual place names in New Zealand and note several similarly named articles. This is dealt with at Wikipedia:Naming conventions (New Zealand)#Convention for dual and alternative names, an official naming convention. This example has just arisen because of the eruption and fatalities. It would be worth having a look at the others. Andrewa (talk) 00:35, 14 December 2019 (UTC)

It's worth noting that the name Whakaari also refers to a number of geographical sites in NZ. Whakaari/White Island is by far the most promonent but is not the only Whakaari. ShakyIsles (talk) 00:47, 18 December 2019 (UTC)

If the only arguments are that the current title is "cumbersome" and a shorter title would be "easier on the eyes" then we should stick with the official title and not consider our readers to be morons. If they can cope with Taumatawhakatangihangakoauauotamateaturipukakapikimaungahoronukupokaiwhenuakitanatahu then this one is a piece of cake. WWGB (talk) 02:17, 14 December 2019 (UTC)

Offensiveness aside this is really dumb reasoning. "Nothing going for it"? It's the official name. What more are you wanting? Your proposed title is longer than the current one; how is that any less cumbersome?  Nixinova   T   C   22:44, 23 December 2019 (UTC)

I've seen and heard the island called just Whakaari on Radio New Zealand - e.g. [8] and on the Guardian website they seem to use both Whakaari and White Island in the same article: [9] though they also use the official name: [10]. I think Wikipedia should stick to the official name.-gadfium 04:01, 14 December 2019 (UTC)

The official naming convention to which I referred above reads in part If there are sources which indicate that a dual name has usage beyond mandatory official usage, put the article at the dual name, with redirects from each of the component names... If sources do not support use of the dual name, the English name will almost certainly be the one in common usage. (... indicates a lengthy passage of text which I didn't think relevant). That may support use of the dual name here, from the sources you give. Andrewa (talk) 06:46, 14 December 2019 (UTC)

The duel usage only gives 3,340,000 results on Google. Volcanoguy 03:06, 15 December 2019 (UTC)

Interesting... and when I split that and search on Whakaari "White Island" instead I get 12 million. Which indicates that the dual name may not be as common as the simple names. Andrewa (talk) 09:12, 16 December 2019 (UTC)

Those round numbers don't mean anything. Go to the last page and you'll find a few hundred results were actually given, many duplicates. The numbers (real and fake) vary wildly by client; following Guy's link directly, I "get" 5,860,000 and get 306. This isn't measuring or estimating a common name, and Google never claimed it was meant to try. Why do Wikipedians try? InedibleHulk (talk) 05:48, 17 December 2019 (UTC).

Clicking again a little over a day later, I'm "given" 1,171,000. Did more than four and a half million pages just vanish? Nobody knows! InedibleHulk (talk) 21:37, 18 December 2019 (UTC)

I still don't know what is wrong with Whakaari/White Island.  Nixinova  T C   21:25, 14 December 2019 (UTC)

The initial reason was just that people here (who I'm guessing were not New Zealanders) didn't like the name. That's not a reason for changing it but it is a reason to look further, as if Wikipedians don't like the name it's likely that others dislike it too. People won't use a name they dislike, so that name however official becomes less recognisable, and against the policy and guideline.

So further investigation was needed, and so far it bears out those fears. It's been in the news a lot in Australia since the eruption a week ago caused the deaths and injuries of several Australians, and it has just been called White Island here to the point that until I looked it up on Wikipedia, I hadn't even heard the other names. Andrewa (talk) 09:12, 16 December 2019 (UTC)

I think this is a chance to look at Wikipedia:Naming conventions (New Zealand)#Convention for dual and alternative names. I strongly believe that all dual names should be used for NZ place names across Wikipedia. The eruption was a large event that gave exposure to the dual name and helped promote the use of Whakaari. I note that Manawatāwhi/Three Kings Islands is also being moved back and forward between Three Kings Islands. ShakyIsles (talk) 00:43, 18 December 2019 (UTC)

When talking about “common usage” there are two common sense considerations. First, priority should be given to the regional common usage. For example, I would regard New Zealanders (New Zealand Geographic Board), not the Australian press, to be the reliable source as what a New Zealand landform is called. For example if I was in Palestine, Texas, I would use their pronounciation of Palestine, not how it is pronounced in the Middle East, which is quite different. Finally, When there has been a new concensus as to what a landform is called, the common usage of of the old name relative to the new name should only be considered for the period of time that the new name existed. Because, older sources would only have the older, White Island , name, considering these older sources would unfairly bias Google hits towards the White Island form. If New Zealanders want to use dual names, e.g. Whakaari/White, for landforms in their country, Wikipedia needs to recognize and honor their right to do so. Paul H. (talk) 22:17, 18 December 2019 (UTC)

Requested move 17 December 2019

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: consensus to not move. (non-admin closure) Mdaniels5757 (talk) 11:22, 27 December 2019 (UTC)

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Whakaari/White Island → ? – per WP:COMMONNAME. Possible titles are White Island (Bay of Plenty) and Whakaari. Note the discussion above. —  AjaxSmack  17:38, 17 December 2019 (UTC) I lean toward the former of the two.

• Oppose: Keep the current title. It's a little bit awkward, but it is the official name, and any name with a disambiguation is at least as awkward. The name Whakaari by itself is not as meaningful without context.-gadfium 17:55, 17 December 2019 (UTC)
• Oppose The recent eruption has resulted in a massive uptake of the dual name, including much of the international media. Schwede66 18:25, 17 December 2019 (UTC)

• Strong Oppose this is the official name. No reasons have actually been given for why this should be moved.  Nixinova  T C   20:41, 17 December 2019 (UTC)

• Strong Oppose The New Zealand Geographic Board uses double names for many places in New Zealand as of the fact that the country has two (three if you count English sign language) offical languages. Whakaari/White Island is broadly used, not just officially and there is no reason two remove the Maori part two creat a name conflict with all the 5 mio other objects being named an White Island. --Die Mathematik (talk) 22:38, 17 December 2019 (UTC)

• Support Whakaari per WP:CRITERIA: (1) Recognizability is now clear: (2) Naturalness is much better than the technical dual name; (3) Precision is equivalent; (4) Conciseness is much better; (5) Consistency is much better as dual-name article titles are extremely rare in our encyclopedia. Onceinawhile (talk) 23:05, 17 December 2019 (UTC)

• Oppose. The article title is the official name of the island. It is mutually respectful of the two dominant cultures in New Zealand society. Removal of any part of the name for convenience is offensive. If "dual-name article titles are extremely rare" why is there no similar movement to "concise" the article title Minneapolis–Saint Paul? WWGB (talk) 23:28, 17 December 2019 (UTC)

• Oppose. Dual names reflect the shared culture here in NZ. The Maori names are being revived and the policy at Wikipedia:Naming conventions (New Zealand)#Convention for dual and alternative names should reflect this and encourage use of dual names. The recent eruption was a chance to massively increase exposure to the name Whakaari both here in NZ and internationally. The wikipedia article played a significant role in building awareness of the dual name. ShakyIsles (talk) 00:43, 18 December 2019 (UTC)

• Oppose move. This is both the island's official name and a name to which is it widely referred. Note that there are several other articles on New Zealand places which use the official dual-name standard, wth Aoraki / Mount Cook, Mayor Island / Tuhua, and Mākaro / Ward Island. I would support the addition of spaces around the oblique, which seems to be standard naming practice, however. Grutness...wha? 02:25, 18 December 2019 (UTC)

• Oppose. I agree with WWGB and ShakyIsles. In addition, possible replacements. e.g. White Island (Bay of Plenty) to avoid conflicts with other White Islands are awkward and does not solve anything. Also, provides an opportunity to educate people about use and status of dual names in New Zealand.— Preceding unsigned comment added by Paul H. (talk • contribs)

• Oppose move. The island historically as well as currently has been always known as Whakaari/White Island and it distinguishes it from all the other White Island locations Zoohistorian —Preceding undated comment added 07:28, 18 December 2019 (UTC)

• Oppose per all of the above. Lugnuts ^{Fire Walk with Me} 09:02, 18 December 2019 (UTC)

• Support. Lots of oppose arguments above, and I'll try to find time to discuss them below. Basically none of them reflect policy or the guideline that one at least cites, with the exception of the argument that the dual name is common. This certainly hasn't been reflected in news here in Australia, where White Island has been used exclusively, which supports the proposal to move. But it deserves more research. Andrewa (talk) 09:23, 18 December 2019 (UTC)

Re "here in Australia, where White Island has been used exclusively":

Flags at half-mast after Whakaari eruption - 9News

Whakaari volcano victim dies in Australian hospital - SBS

A cross section of Whakaari volcano - ABC

Seismic activity still strong on Whakaari - Canberra Times

Whakaari volcano fills NZ's burns units - NT News

No, it is not used exclusively. WWGB (talk) 04:11, 19 December 2019 (UTC)

And we have other countries to consider as well: New Zealand: White Island Whakaari volcano erupts (BBC), The Science Behind Whakaari/White Island's Eruption (NPR), „Nevyzpytatelná Whakaari“. Dalo se neštěstí na White Island předejít?... Grutness...wha? 01:33, 20 December 2019 (UTC)

• Strong Oppose and why don't we tell them to go and re-open Ayers Rock? Eddaido (talk) 01:21, 19 December 2019 (UTC)

• Oppose. Both names are official. Title MOS should be with spaces between the slash as per other examples shown by Grutness. Ajf773 (talk) 01:26, 19 December 2019 (UTC)

• Move back to Whakaari / White Island per MOS:SLASH and other examples mentioned above. Also move 2019 Whakaari/White Island eruption for the same reason. --- C&C (Coffeeandcrumbs) 11:34, 19 December 2019 (UTC)

It's a proper noun, officially lacking spaces. Not our call. It'd be like "fixing" Warner Bros. or Hero's, no? InedibleHulk (talk) 05:02, 20 December 2019 (UTC)

In that case, it'd mean moving all the spaced dual-name NZ articles, no? Grutness...wha? 03:53, 21 December 2019 (UTC)

Actually, yes, other NZ dual place names should actually be moved to have unspaced slashes if that's the official name.  Nixinova   T   C   22:35, 23 December 2019 (UTC)

• Support White Island (Bay of Plenty) which is by and far the most common name used in international reporting. Vici Vidi (talk) 06:28, 22 December 2019 (UTC)
• Oppose National and international usage is generally using Whaakari as part of the island's name - examples above plus many many more which are not hard to find. And practically speaking the current article title disabiguates from other White islands particularly well. Andrewgprout (talk) 08:11, 22 December 2019 (UTC)
• Oppose. The dual name communicates the existence of, and respect for, the two main cultures that define New Zealand today. The fact of this duality is a key part of the local, national context. Readers from outside New Zealand need to see this, and so hopefully learn about it, in order to truly understand the topic. I see the dual name as a key part of the information about this place. Pufferfyshe (talk) 17:41, 22 December 2019 (UTC)

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The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The island is closed

I have e just watched a documentary on the 2019 eruption and it states the island is now closed to visitors. I couldn't edit the page myself so thought I'd add it here 95.150.146.148 (talk) 00:19, 18 December 2022 (UTC)