Talk:Turco-Albanian

"Turk" not a pejorative

Political correctness aside, the term "Turk" is very very common in greek books, speak, traditional songs etc with the meaning of "muslim". I added as sources several greek dictionaries. "Turk-albanian" means simply the "muslim-albanian", to distinguish him from the christian Albanian. As is mentioned in the article, we have (and still use) "turko-cretans", "turko-gypsies", and even "Turko-something" as Greek surmames (Tourkogiorgis comes to my mind, a musician of 1970's) etc. I suggest that WP stops spreading falce info that only fuels hatred between nations. During the "New Order" bonanza of 1990's and 2000's, there were few greek authors who thought they can change the language to more "PC" forms. This may affect the new generations, but cannot change the older texts and their meanings.--Skylax30 (talk) 09:04, 20 August 2018 (UTC)

The same term (Turco-Albanais) in an old French Dictionary of military terms p. 122--Skylax30 (talk) 10:40, 22 August 2018 (UTC)

The world does not equal Greece and discourse outside Greece, in the English language, matters more for an English encyclopedia. Adding Merriam Webster is far beyond the pale of what is an acceptable source here- it doesn't even pertain to the topic at hand. Neither is an obvious WP:PRIMARY non-RS source from, ahem, 1821. --Calthinus (talk) 22:06, 11 September 2018 (UTC)

No problem, then. Leave the reader to believe that in this context "Turk" means "Turk". Maybe it does, actually.--Skylax30 (talk) 07:17, 12 September 2018 (UTC)

There are indeed many ways this page can be improved. It is relevant that the word arose in the context where in the millet system all (Sunni) Muslims were "Turks" (fyi, this was a word -- and a slur -- also applied against Sunni Albanians by Bektashi Albanians, who are also Muslim, in the late 19th century). And that the word was also used by Turks themselves who were trying to assimilate Albanians in the same era. But we can't remove WP:RS stating the current reality that the word became a pejorative. --Calthinus (talk) 17:31, 12 September 2018 (UTC)

Fine. If you feel well informed about it, you could even file charges against this newspaper who used the term 4 times in one article [1] --Skylax30 (talk) 11:42, 13 September 2018 (UTC)

And this [2]. --Skylax30 (talk) 11:46, 13 September 2018 (UTC)

@Skylax30:, The use of the word "Turk" used as a pejorative is well documented toward Balkan Muslims (such as Albanians, Bosniaks etc) by other peoples in the region. The term has been used to conflate Balkan Muslims as Turks (i.e connoting the "historical Muslim oppressor" for Balkan nationalist types) to justify massacres, ethnic cleansing and other forms of violence enacted on them over nearly two centuries. There is no need to sugar coat the matter as it being some issue that 'hey many say it in the Balkans so its a ok term and pushy people with political correctness just don't get it'. There is scholarship on the matter and its contained in the article. What terminology past and current Greek society uses is up to them (or for that matter past other European societies employed), but those who have been and still are on the receiving end of that kind of discourse in no way consider it a term of endearment.Resnjari (talk) 19:48, 30 September 2018 (UTC)

Dubious: "Albanian was and still is a term used as an ethnonym"

An Albanian author is cited here, attempting to create an Albanian ethnicity in antiquity, while from many other sources it is known that "Albanian" did not necessarily meaned the Albanians of 19th and 20th century. For example, it has been shown that the first mention of "Albanoi" in a 11th c. source meaned the ... Normans of Sicily (Vranousi Erasmia, Les termes Αλβανοί et Αρβανίται et la premiere mention des Albanais dans les sources du XI siecle, 1970). In the article Albanians, this result of a multi-page research has been watered-down to a "dispute" (now footnotes No 63 and 64), but still it cannot be claimed that "Albanians" was always an ethnonym as we know it. Besides, here the reference to pre-ottoman definitions of "Albanian" is irrelevant, and is only used to promote nationalistic concerns of 20th-21st century. Users are invited to propose something better here, relevant to the time-frame of the context.--Skylax30 (talk) 18:34, 11 October 2018 (UTC)

Again, unnecessary .. your edits are made with a nationalistic background.!--Lorik17 (talk) 20:27, 13 November 2018 (UTC)

The only nationalistic edits are from users who want to create Albanians of the past. There are plenty of references that "Albanian" was not always an ethnonym. The more you erase the more you get.--Skylax30 (talk) 09:29, 19 November 2018 (UTC)

@Resnjari:, just a quick question because I noticed this revert of yours here. Do you consider Vranousi's work as not reliable and POV? I think that maybe it needs rewording in order to go according the [WP:NPOV] rules but the passage that the term Albanians had an ambiguous meaning has been referenced in various articles especially about the George Maniakes rebellion were the Normans were referred as Albanians . I don't see why to exclude as POV something that it is already referenced in various articles. Othon I (talk) 11:17, 19 November 2018 (UTC)

References

Are you still on about this. Wrong article Othon. Rebellions and the medieval era are different topics.Resnjari (talk) 11:35, 19 November 2018 (UTC)

Hang on a sec, these Albanians/Normans were other Albanians? I thought that our topic was the name "Albanians" but I am more than happy to discuss Medieval era and rebellions on the appropriate articles for sure. Thanks Othon I (talk) 20:42, 21 November 2018 (UTC)

As i said, you still going on about this. The medieval era has been discussed on other articles that directly related to that topic and Albanians ad nauseam.Resnjari (talk) 03:05, 22 November 2018 (UTC)

Exactly Othon I, some users wanted to expand on the term "Albanians", supposedly referring to an old ethnicity, but when we bring material of that medieval use, they don't like it. In other words, they want to pick a particular meaning of term "Albanians".--Skylax30 (talk) 20:33, 26 November 2018 (UTC)

About the medevil era. This article is already POV as it treats a term "Turco-Albanian" in the plural with an s, basically implying that there really is a people called "Turco-Albanians". Outside Greece that is not a term used nor do such a people of the sort exist. Writing about the medevil era, there are other articles out there about that.Resnjari (talk) 11:36, 27 November 2018 (UTC)

In case that you didn' know, articles are about words written in texts. Music is about sounds, photos are about views, dreams are about desires etc.--Skylax30 (talk) 13:23, 1 December 2018 (UTC)

"Articles are about words, music is about sounds".... what in bloody hell am I reading........--Calthinus (talk) 15:38, 3 December 2018 (UTC)

One more academic source about the older meanings of "Albanian" is Oliver Schmitt who wrote that (around 15th and 16th c.) Albanian meaned : (a) einen sprecher des Albanischen bezeichnen. (b) einen Menschen, der, ungeachtet seiner sprachlichen Zugegörigkeit, aus Albanien stammt. (c) einen Bauern (= "a man of the mountains"). < Oliver Jens Schmitt (2009), "Skanderbeg: Der neue Alexander auf dem Balkan", p. 354>. Although the article is not about the meaning of the word, the reader should not be misled by "weasel" references to a historicity of "ethnic purity since antiquity". --Skylax30 (talk) 19:58, 5 December 2018 (UTC)

Once again its on the medieval period.Resnjari (talk) 20:16, 5 December 2018 (UTC)

So, "Albanian" was not an ethnonym in medieval period. Right?--Skylax30 (talk) 14:18, 7 December 2018 (UTC)

I see your still persisting with this POV of yours. Very disappointing @Skylax.Resnjari (talk) 18:33, 7 December 2018 (UTC)

Inline vs article

Inline reads "Muslim Albanians have been called “Turkalvanoi” in Greek, and this is pejorative" & "the term “Muslim Albanians”, nationalist Greek histories use the more known, but pejorative, term “Turkalbanians while the text reads "Albanians are thus often pejoratively named and or called by Greeks as "Turks", represented in the expression "Turkalvanoi"." It appears that the adjective Muslim is missing in the article. Alexikoua (talk) 15:32, 1 December 2018 (UTC)

Another issue is that Nicolaou doesn't limit the use of the name "Turco-Albanians" among Greeks in the context of the 1770s atrocities.Alexikoua (talk) 15:34, 1 December 2018 (UTC)

Yeah ok, i self reverted after seeing this.Resnjari (talk) 16:00, 1 December 2018 (UTC)

Albanians calling themselves "Turks"

It seems that certain users did not like this source, and we had the first deletion.

A prominent figure of the Albanian national movement of late 19th c., Thimi Mitko, who lived in Egypt, states clearly that muslim Albanians were called "Turks", orthodox were called "Greeks" and for catholics wasn't any particular term. The modern author who studied Mitko's work concluded that the Albanians of 1870's did not call each other with a particular ethnic determinant, but rather with terms referring to their place of birth, Gegs, Tosks etc, including the term "turq" for the muslims. The source: Jane C. Sugarman, "Imagining the Homeland: Poetry, Songs, and the Discourses of Albanian Nationalism", Ethnomusicology, Vol. 43, No. 3 (Autumn, 1999), p. 424

The above info is nothing surprising. Everybody in the Balkans know that till early 20th c. "Turk" meaned "muslim", while turkish nation was still under construction. The suprising is that some grecophone and anglophone opinion leaders decided that this has to be erased from history.--Skylax30 (talk) 08:13, 25 December 2018 (UTC)

Thimi Mitko is not a father of anything. He only participated in what was called the Albanian Awakening as did many other people. Having an analysis of Mitko's folkloric collections in this article is wp:undue. Now for a history lesson here Karpart notes p.342. [3] p. "After 1856, and especially after 1878, the terms Turk and Muslim became practically synonymous in the Balkans. An Albanian who did not know one word of Turkish thus was given the ethnic name of Turk and accepted it, no matter how much he might have preferred to distance himself from the ethnic Turks." The wider context here is due to the eastern crisis. The source by Sugerman also gives words like "Kahure" and "Raja", insult words for Orthodox Albanians by people not of their group. Insult words entered the lexicon.Resnjari (talk) 08:41, 25 December 2018 (UTC)

OK, he was not a "father". But let the sources do the job.--Skylax30 (talk) 11:41, 25 December 2018 (UTC)