Talk:Tudeh Party of Iran

Foundation

Please check the foundation date of the Party. Their puplications speak of the 2. October 1941. One of many sources: [1]. --Ervaude 11:07, 30 October 2007 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:Tudeh.PNG

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BetacommandBot (talk) 02:19, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

Question on "disputed neutrality" listing

I'm not seeing any information on this talk page that justifies labeling this article as "disputed neutrality." - tbrosz —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.164.93.223 (talk) 19:24, 15 June 2009 (UTC)

Changes

I've added a lot of material from the book Mohammad Mosaddeq and the 1953 Coup in Iran, Edited by Mark J. Gasiorowski and Malcolm Byrne, Syracuse University Press, 2004. which has a chapter devoted to the Tudeh. --BoogaLouie (talk) 22:23, 15 September 2009 (UTC)

Add more September 23 --BoogaLouie (talk) 14:14, 9 October 2009 (UTC)

Islam is left's leader

Why to belong to the Tudeh? All the left in the world is under Islamic leadership: Castro Brothers, Hugo Chaves, Evo Morales, etc. are always supporting the Iranian government and Islamism. Agre22 (talk) 23:13, 15 September 2009 (UTC)agre22

You have a valid point, but this article is about explaining what Tudeh stands for ad has done, rather than injecting opinions.Wikiedebs (talk) 19:30, 6 May 2017 (UTC)

@Helper201: This is another source:

Whereas the Tudeh Party, with its reputation as a left-wing, pro-Soviet party...

— Touraj Atabaki (2000), Azerbaijan: Ethnicity and the Struggle for Power in Iran, I.B.Tauris, p. 137

–Pahlevun (talk) 13:23, 25 June 2017 (UTC)

Stalinism

@Soman: Please provide a proof for your claim that Stalinism is "merely a smear term" and that "for all encyclopedia purposes, ML works fine". Reliable sources note that Stalinism played an Important role in the party's ideology. The source cited in the article discusses it under a sub-chapter named "The Tudeh Party: Stalinism and middle-class reformism". Other examples:

Thus the Tudeh Party introduced the Stalinist version of Marxism into Iran. As was discussed before, in the late 1950s the Third Worldist ideology and its socialist variant appeared in Iran, basically through the impact of the Chinese, Cuban and Vietnamese Revolutions

— Samih K. Farsoun, Mehrdad Mashayekhi (2005). Iran: Political Culture in the Islamic Republic. Routledge, p. 68

Yet, when the Soviet Union demanded its oil concession the following year the Tudeh Party extended full support on ideological grounds. The Tudeh Party evolved towards a Stalinist pro-Moscow Party, ultimately losing much public support. International political pressures transformed the Tudeh Party into the local evangelical force of the Stalinist faith by 1949.

— Tadd Fernée (2014). Enlightenment and Violence: Modernity and Nation-Making. SAGE, p. 318.

At the end of 1984 the party returned to a rigid Stalinist interpretation of post-Second World War developments in Soviet-Iranian relations...

— Sepehr Zabir (2012). The Left in Contemporary Iran (RLE Iran D). Taylor & Francis, p. 198.

—Pahlevun (talk) 18:52, 4 November 2017 (UTC)

Well, I think your own liberal use (no pun intended) on the term shows its inconsistency. To use the term 'Stalinism' for the beliefs held pre-1953 is well, not very informative, but clearly Tudeh Party and the rest of the world communist movement at the time upheld Stalin's beliefs as a pillar of ideological doctrine (the term 'Marxism-Leninism-Stalinism' was sometimes used at the time, but that term largely disappeared from later usage). The problem with the term 'Stalinism' is that it doesn't indicate anything substantially different in terms of ideology from Marxism-Leninism, and in modern political parlance 'Stalinism' is largely used as euphemism for authoritarianism. In any case, it is hardly applicable to the Tudeh Party today. --Soman (talk) 23:31, 4 November 2017 (UTC)

Your arguments resemble original research. And you did not provide a source for what you say. Instead, there are four reliable sources supporting the fact that Stalinism is part of Tudeh's ideology, and one even asserts that they returned to it in 1984 (when their exile lasting until today began). Pahlevun (talk) 09:10, 5 November 2017 (UTC)

@Soman: I asked for a Wikipedia:Third opinion, since there is no other user involved. Pahlevun (talk) 20:19, 15 November 2017 (UTC)

Additional sources:

Studying the history of Iran’s Tudeh Party gives an insight into the role of Stalinism in the region... The demise of the Stalinist Tudeh created a momentum that led to the overthrow of the Shah in 1979...

— Iran's Tudeh Party: A History of Compromises and Betrayals. available at http://tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/03017605.2011.621250

—Pahlevun (talk) 20:44, 15 November 2017 (UTC)

The Third Opinion request made in connection with this dispute has been removed (i.e. rejected) because like all other moderated content dispute resolution venues at Wikipedia, 3O requires thorough talk page discussion before seeking assistance. If an editor will not discuss, consider the recommendations which are made here. — TransporterMan (TALK) 22:08, 17 November 2017 (UTC) (3O volunteer)

I don't see any argument above that convinces my to change opinion on the infobox. Again, the reference to Iran's Tudeh Party: A History of Compromises and Betrayals uses the term 'Stalinism' merely as a euphemism for the semi-religious adherence to the official pro-Soviet policy at the time. I'm sure there are 1000s of other sources were you may find 'Stalinist' and 'Tudeh' juxtaposed, but that doesn't mean that 'Stalinism' is a distinct ideology in itself. There are also mentions in online of Tudeh at some juncture of its history being 'Revisionist', 'social imperialist', 'reactionary', etc..

With the term 'Stalinism', we find the similar problem as with the 'fascism'. Post 1956 'Stalinist' is generally used as a slur, very rarely as self-identification. For the infobox 'Marxism-Leninism' will do just fine, is more scholarly correct and corresponds to the self-identification of the party. --Soman (talk) 10:36, 25 November 2017 (UTC)

@Soman: Euphemism? I am not able to find "semi-religious adherence to the official pro-Soviet policy" as a definition for Stalinism in the given source, please quote it or else it would be merely your own interpretation of the content. I'm going to ask for sources for your claims once again. Stalinism should be included in the infobox because: 1. Several academic sources have asserted that Stalinism is an important part of the party's ideology vs. Zero sources that acknowledge your claim. 2. It is important to distinguish the party's ideology from other communist parties in Iran that were not Stalinist. Pahlevun (talk) 21:52, 1 December 2017 (UTC)

@Soman: Why did you revert? Pahlevun (talk) 18:35, 2 February 2018 (UTC)

@Soman: I'm not going to ask for the third time about the revert. Please, answer me. Pahlevun (talk) 15:32, 9 February 2018 (UTC)

I think my initial comment in this thread outlines my opposition to the usage of the term, and adding it to the lede appears to be an issue of WP:POINT. 'Stalinism' is a vague term, used routinely by Trotskyists against most other left groups who disagree with them, used in general parlance as euphemism for authortarianism, and virtually never used for self-identification. Marxism-Leninism is the term that evolved in the mainstream communist movement, and the Tudeh Party was not the first expression of this tendency in Iran. Btw, I get 49,600 google hits for "fascist Trump", but it would still be a bad idea to add 'fascist' to that article lead. --Soman (talk) 08:37, 11 February 2018 (UTC)

RfC

Should the infobox contain Stalinism as an ideology? Pahlevun (talk) 10:48, 6 December 2017 (UTC)

• Oppose I don't see anything in the article to suggest Stalinism.  — Mr. Guye (talk) (contribs)  04:44, 13 December 2017 (UTC)
• Oppose also support removal of the Category:Stalinist parties. Lorstaking (talk) 04:34, 21 December 2017 (UTC)
• Support. A Google book search[2] turns up a large number of reliable sources explicitly referring to the Tudeh Party as Stalinist. To cite a just a few of the initial hits:
  • International Trotskyism, 1929-1985: A Documented Analysis of the Movement[3] "Soon after its establishment the HKE became involved in a polemic with the Stalinist Tudeh Party."
  • Reformers and Revolutionaries in Modern Iran: New Perspectives on the Iranian Left[4] "However, the Stalinist version of socialism was appealing in societies like Iran, where capitalist development appeared late and retarded, the modern democratic tradition was weak, and authoritarian culture was the norm even among the reformist intelligentsia. Thus began the Stalinist detour of the Iranian Left led by the Tudeh Party in the mid-twentieth century. The Tudeh Party: Stalinism and middle-class reformism Originally seen as a reformist nationalist..."
  • Recasting Iranian Modernity: International Relations and Social Change[5] "Organized urban labour witnessed a rapid growth under the newly established Stalinist Tudeh Party"
  • The Persian Puzzle: The Conflict Between Iran And America[6] "They were refugees from the Tudeh and Marxist groups within the National Front who later became critical of the Stalinist Tudeh"
  • Sexual Politics in Modern Iran[7] "Numerous political organizations and trade unions also emerged, among them the Stalinist Tudeh (Masses) Party."
  • Enlightenment and Violence: Modernity and Nation-Making[8] "The Tudeh Party evolved towards a Stalinist pro-Moscow Party, ultimately losing much public support. International political pressures transformed 'the Tudeh party [into] the local evangelical force of the Stalinist faith by 1949'"
  • Eminent Persians - Volume 1[9] "Eshaq Eprim, who left the Stalinist Tudeh Party early on"

In contrast, I tried Google book searches for "Stalinist" in connection to the other leftist parties listed in the template {{Iranian exiled parties}}. None of those searches produced more than a few hits, and as far as I could see none of those hits used the term Stalinist in proximity to those parties. The description of Tudeh as Stalinist appears to be both prevalent in reliable sources, and uniquely applied to Tudeh's brand of communism. Alsee (talk) 00:58, 27 December 2017 (UTC)

• Oppose In order that we put this in as an ideology, there should be wide agreement in sources that it IS an ideology of this party, rather than simply occasional use of the term as an adjective, often in historical contexts. Some of the sources I looked at relate to early/mid 20thC and there is no reason to believe that the term is being used to mean anything other than pro-Soviet-line, or rigidly Marxist. None of them says that Stalinism was a belief or ideology of the party - even at that time - but certainly not as a permanent feature. I'm not even sure what "Stalinism" means as an ideology, since the term is mostly used since his death as a critical term of style and manner, meaning 'authoritarian' rather than policy or ideology. Use in the body in historical context might be apt. Pincrete (talk) 17:39, 30 December 2017 (UTC)