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Lead

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The lead section of this article is well-researched and contains a great deal of relevant information. To me, it seems like too much detail for the lead. I also found it confusing and a bit scattered. Would other editors be open to a revision/reduction of the lead along the following lines?

Trumpism consists of the political movement and political ideologies that are associated with former U.S. president Donald Trump.[1][2] Trumpists and Trumpians are terms used to refer to those exhibiting characteristics of Trumpism.
The precise composition of Trumpism is disputed and is sufficiently complex to overwhelm any single framework of analysis.[3] Trumpism has been referred to as an American political variant of the far right[4][5] and the national-populist and neo-nationalist sentiment seen in multiple nations worldwide from the late 2010s[6] to the early 2020s. However, some commentators reject the populist designation for Trumpism, viewing the phenomenon as a new form of fascism or authoritarianism.[7][19][note 1] Trumpism has also been described as a cult of personality.[23][24][25] Though not limited to any one party, the Trumpist faction became the largest faction of the Republican Party in the United States in the late 2010s.
The label Trumpism has been applied to national-conservative and national-populist movements in other democracies. Several politicians outside of the United States have been labeled as staunch allies of Trump or Trumpism, or even as the equivalent to Trump in their respective nations; among them are Jair Bolsonaro, Recep Tayyip Erdoğan, Viktor Orbán, Jacob Zuma, Shinzo Abe, and Yoon Suk Yeol.

MonMothma (talk) 01:50, 7 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I am a bit curious about the supposedly recent rise of neo-nationalism in the United States. I was under the impression that American nationalism was already thriving in the 2000s. Per the main article on American nationalism:
Andre, I assure you that there is no connection between election season and me wanting to trim a lead section that isn't very well written. If you have a reason for your opposition to the proposed edits, please state it. "Now is not the time to trim" is not a reason. Thank you. MonMothma (talk) 05:31, 12 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Well, for one, I reverted the removal of "Never Trumpers" from the lead. I also reverted the removal of Nixon, Ford, and Bush from the Republican Party page. Why are we memory holing these things? Let's not. Andre🚐 05:42, 12 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Andre, I am seeking consensus for proposed revisions to the lead section of this article. Issues with other articles can be discussed elsewhere. I am fine with retaining a sentence on the Never Trump movement in the lead now that you added sources for it. Do you have any other issues with my proposed revision? MonMothma (talk) 18:44, 14 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Let's discuss the proposals one at at time, but all together I oppose the proposal Andre🚐 21:22, 14 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
OK. Let's start with the intro sentence. In its current form, it contains so many terms--many of them obscure--that it doesn't really mean much of anything. I would revise it and simplify it to read as follows: "Trumpism consists of the political movement and political ideologies that are associated with former U.S. president Donald Trump." Thoughts? MonMothma (talk) 23:20, 14 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Trumpism consists of the political ideologies, social emotions, style of governance, political movement, and set of mechanisms for autocratization and authoritarianism that are associated with 45th U.S. president Donald Trump and his political base. I agree with you that " and set of mechanisms for autocratization and authoritarianism" is a bit awkward and unwieldly, and a little too technical for the first sentence, so I'd support moving or rephrasing that. I took a first stab at decomposing the sentence into two here [1] Andre🚐 23:30, 14 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you, Andre. That helps, and I appreciate you working with me on this even though we have disagreements. I would propose that the "set of mechanisms for autocratization and authoritarianism" clause be moved down into the body of the article (or, alternatively, removed altogether). I find it confusing. More importantly, though, putting this language in the lead makes the reader expect that the article will explain what those mechanisms are--but it really doesn't. Would you be OK with that? MonMothma (talk) 00:09, 15 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I think something about that should be in the lead, so I don't want to remove it altogther, but I'm definitely agreeable to rephrasing it or softening it. I'm not wedded to "mechanisms of" "autocratization" but I do think "authoritarianism" clearly does belong. Andre🚐 00:22, 15 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I am fine with mentioning authoritarianism in the lead. Authoritarianism is amply mentioned and sourced within the article body. The mechanisms and the autocratization are not. So I think we are in agreement here. MonMothma (talk) 02:49, 15 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Andre, I would like to go ahead and remove this sentence from the lead. The lead mentions authoritarianism elsewhere, and we agree that the rest of the sentence isn't helpful. Are you OK with that? MonMothma (talk) 17:29, 15 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I don't support removing it altogether. Per WP:PRESERVE we should find a way to move or preserve it and refactor or change it. I'm supportive of that, but I don't think we agreed on removing it. Also, there's WP:NODEADLINE to make these changes. Andre🚐 17:39, 15 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Andre, I have taken a shot at revising the sentence. I believe my revisions are consistent with our discussion. See what you think. MonMothma (talk) 04:54, 18 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Looks fine. Thanks. Andre🚐 05:19, 18 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Trim I don't think trimming the lead has anything to do with the election or politics. The lead is obviously too long and scattered. I think it should be reduced to a maximum of 2 paragraphs. Actually, one paragraph should be enough to cover what Trumpism is and include a few thoughts from commentators who are for it or against to keep it more neutral.
Frankserafini87 (talk) 17:55, 20 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I strongly oppose the new lead's redescription of Trumpism solely from one particular analytical framework until there is broader academic concensus to frame it that way. To date, there is no such concensus. The current lead misleads the reader into thinking that the stated particular perspective is not strongly contested. Within the article, there are ample citations from academic sources demonstrating contrary frameworks such as one which regards it is mistaken to view Trumpism as an ideational rather than an affective phenomenon, let alone a political "movement". That is, that it is more of a collective emotion as sociopsychology and other disciplines are cited as describing it. Though not a citable academic, George Will encapsulates this perspective this way: "Trumpism, too, is a mood masquerading as a doctrine, an entertainment genre based on contempt for its bellowing audiences. Still others view it as a political technique that agree is reliant on many such non political science factors such as basic drives some of which are held in common with many other species. However, the sections of the article discussing the link up with mass communication (EG Fox and use of social media) theorize that Trumpism should be viewed as a communication / collective consciousness (Le Bon derisively termed "Mob mentality") phenomenon. So while I agree the former wording was perhaps needlessly complex, it did accurately summarized the diversity of dominant views on what constitutes Trumpism. If no rewording is proposed that captures the dominant competing frameworks for explaining Trumpism, I shall do so. I am also not averse to restoring the original lead with adjustments to reduce its complexity. Any thoughts on this? J JMesserly (talk) 20:56, 8 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The current lead misleads the reader into thinking that the stated particular perspective is not strongly contested. Lol, no. Obviously the Trumpists object, but per WP:MANDY, that isn't terribly relevant. The lede is fine as-is, you're trying to dredge up a months-old discussion that settled the matter. Zaathras (talk) 22:06, 8 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

References

  1. ^ Reicher & Haslam 2016.
  2. ^ Dean & Altemeyer 2020, p. 11.
  3. ^ Gordon 2018, p. 68.
  4. ^ Lowndes 2019.
  5. ^ Bennhold 2020.
  6. ^ Isaac 2017.
  7. ^ Foster 2017.
  8. ^ Butler 2016.
  9. ^ Chomsky 2020.
  10. ^ Berkeley News 2020.
  11. ^ Badiou 2019, p. 19.
  12. ^ Giroux 2021.
  13. ^ Traverso 2017, p. 30.
  14. ^ Tarizzo 2021, p. 163.
  15. ^ Ibish 2020.
  16. ^ Cockburn 2020.
  17. ^ Drutman 2021.
  18. ^ West 2020.
  19. ^ [8][9][10][11][12][13][14][15][16][17][18]
  20. ^ Badiou 2019, p. 15.
  21. ^ Traverso 2017, p. 35.
  22. ^ Tarizzo 2021, p. 178.
  23. ^ Haltiwanger, John. "Republicans have built a cult of personality around Trump that glosses over his disgraced presidency". Business Insider. Retrieved 2023-10-04.
  24. ^ Tharoor, Ishaan (2022-08-21). "Analysis | Trump's personality cult and the erosion of U.S. democracy". Washington Post. ISSN 0190-8286. Retrieved 2023-10-04.
  25. ^ Ben-Ghiat, Ruth (2020-12-09). "Op-Ed: Trump's formula for building a lasting personality cult". Los Angeles Times. Retrieved 2023-10-04.
  26. ^ "The Demographics of Military Enlistment After 9/11". Archived from the original on February 26, 2010. Retrieved July 6, 2007.
  27. ^ Sanger, David E. (2012). "1–5". Confront and Conceal: Obama's Secret Wars and Surprising Use of American Power.

Authoritarianism, really?

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All 5 of the sources backing the use of "authoritarianism" in the intro are opinion pieces that fail to draw a clear correlation between Trump's policies or supporters and authoritarianism. I think the editors are playing a bit fast and loose here. Do we really want to claim here on Wikipedia that the ideology of Donald Trump and his supporters is authoritarian? That just seems so removed from reality and I'm wondering if we're not saying this in bad faith here.

Please remove or back it up with actual examples of policies that are unambiguously authoritarian. 24.20.252.82 (talk) 16:00, 11 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

 Not done No, strong oppose. Strongly references. Trump is a wannabe authoritarian and this emerged even in more stark relief of late. Andre🚐 20:22, 11 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
This article, particularly that all-important first paragraph, suggests that the tens of millions of people who support Trump's candidacy are authoritarians, without giving any early consideration of the people who support Trump without supporting the radical ideas laid out here.
If the term "Trumpist" is going to be used, there ought to be an early disclaimer that not all who vote for or support Trump believe in the abolition of the rule of law and the Constitution, or these other extreme positions that are labeled as "Trumpist." In other words, it'd be helpful to provide an early distinction between those who support Trump over his opponent in our current political climate as compared those who actually believe this radical ideology. 2601:5C4:C500:6F30:83D5:F6EC:DFDC:EE94 (talk) 03:27, 22 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Agree with Andre. The claim that Trump is authoritarian is backed up by a ton of sources from both sides of the pond and various ideologies. pbp 05:25, 5 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
It really doesn't seemed to be backed by many. AtypicalPhantom (talk) 07:05, 17 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
It'd be helpful to distinguish Trump's beliefs and ambitions from those of the bulk of his supporters instead of implicitly lumping all of his voters/supporters under that single label of "Trumpist." 2601:5C4:C500:6F30:83D5:F6EC:DFDC:EE94 (talk) 03:31, 22 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Authoritarianism is quite a loose term and, at least in this case, depends on perspective. One can be seen as authoritarian in some ways (e.g., mask mandates, vaccination mandates, government confiscation of resources (through taxation that takes the majority (ie over 50%) of some people’s earnings), forcing audits and creating government mandated impositions of high burdens of proof (via tax audits) of individuals who express political views contrary to those who hold federal power (e.g., Tea Party), establishment of government/central authority defined rules of what it means for corporate boards (private business entities) to be “diverse” and penalizing large corporations for not aligning with such subjective interpretations of ethics. Forcing private places of business (even in cases where said business is entirely owned and run by a single individual or a family) to serve (e.g., waxing/massage services) any and all potential clientele based on those clientele’s own self-identification, versus the business’s right to refuse service to anyone for absolutely any reason. Imposing that all schools federally must teach potentially subjectively perceived materials (regarding homosexuality, transgenderism, etc) with a partial approach versus allowing local parents to review and perhaps amend or exclude the content of such subjective/opinionated studies from their children’s mandated, taxpayer funded curriculum.. In these ways and many more, one could argue that Trump and his followers’ policies may actually be seen as anti-authoritarian. 100.38.103.114 (talk) 21:25, 21 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
It can be argued that Trump’s current policy on abortion is arguably “less authoritarian” in some ways than that of most Democratic politicians and many Republican politicians. Roe v Wade asserted, through central, federal power of the judicial branch, that abortion cannot be effectively outlawed by a smaller, more local government (e.g., the states). However by encouraging Roe v Wade to be overturned, one can argue that now the power is left to the states (thus *removing* authority from the federal government). Trump has actually argued for allowing abortion in the case of exceptional circumstances, and is not supportive of a national ban, as many Republicans are.
Has he evolved on this issue? Maybe, or maybe it’s a calculated shift, but we have to judge political candidates on their most current stated platform, otherwise we would have to judge candidate Joe Biden as being a segregationist with respect to schools.
https://www.cbsnews.com/amp/news/trump-abortion-brags-about-role-in-overturning-roe-v-wade-urges-gop-caution-on-issue/
https://apnews.com/article/abortion-federal-ban-trump-gop-2024-20586bbb64a511030ef58290e98f99f0
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/amp/ncna1021626 100.38.103.114 (talk) 21:38, 21 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
A lot of Trumpers label themselves as libertarians. I think it would be helpful to put, Trumpism has frequently been seen as authoritarian 2600:8801:FB13:6B00:9D91:E9F0:4C38:E3 (talk) 01:20, 23 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
That is definitely much more defensible wording than what stands on this page right now. Thank you. Can we change the wording to "Trumpism is frequently seen as authoritarian," or even "Trumpism has frequently been seen as authoritarian"?
If you leave this intro as is, you might risk alienating and at least 'being seen' as validating unfounded beliefs by a large chunk of the 40-45% of American voters who voted for Trump, who might say that sources like Wikipedia are fundamentally biased and run by 'globalist elites' (their words, not mine) who only pretend to be objective, but are willing to give up their honesty due to personal gripe and/or political viewpoints. 100.38.103.114 (talk) 04:07, 23 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Andre, if the goal is neutrality, can you please back up the statement (if it is not an opinion): “Trump is a wannabe authoritarian and this emerged even in more stark relief of late.”? Trump’s stances on several issues (COVID vaccines (strongly encouraging people to have them, but against government mandates); abortion (coming out against any federal ban or ruling)) can arguably be called compromises towards moderation. 100.38.103.114 (talk) 12:06, 6 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Perhaps a more accurate wording would be "labled as authoritarian." Apart from rhetoric, there is little evidence that Trump's policies and actions have in fact been authoritarian. 72.234.113.204 (talk) 02:27, 7 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
In all fairness, Trump is a capitalist. One cannot be a capitalist without having at least authoritarian tendencies. Not a planet (talk) 22:22, 31 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Aside from that being untrue, it's also WP:OR. — Czello (music) 05:52, 1 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Listen, Wikipedia should be a nonpartisan place. We can't be promoting one ideology over another. Maybe capitalists are authoritarian, maybe they're not. It's not our job to say. Politicalfactchecker99 (talk) 15:47, 16 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Irish Times

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Really? This is a great source on AMERICAN Politics? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 240F:CA:2CE5:1:7557:CF07:746:75D9 (talk) 04:59, 5 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

There is an easy way to prove how biased this article is. Type "What is Trumpism?" into Google and read the top results from reliable sources such as The Hill, BBC, The Atlantic and others. None of these reliable sources mention authoritarianism or fascism as a main characteristic of Trumpism. They talk about nativism, populism, nationalism, industrialism, tribalism, and identity politics. And yet this article leads off with authoritarianism and fascism. This article is seriously out of sync with the mainstream of reliable sources. The resort to Irish Times is just one indication of this. Westwind273 (talk) 04:02, 17 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
"This article is seriously out of sync with the mainstream of reliable sources."
Is that discounting the 2-3 dozen, or so, reliable sources already in the lead? DN (talk) 04:55, 17 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
There are hundreds of "reliable sources", like Irish Times. The question is which ones are more toward the mainstream and which ones are at the fringe. The problem with this article is that it relies heavily on fringe reliable sources that are at the liberal end of the spectrum. Westwind273 (talk) 05:38, 17 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Inflammatory image in the heading.

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I do think this image should be removed and replaced because its obviously Inflammatory and is meant to paint some kind of cultish image of the movement. I personally wanted to remove this image a long time ago but I was inexperienced with editing on Wikipedia. @User:Valjean says removing this image is whitewashing. I do think keeping the image is a violation of NPOV. The image file is literally called "Fascism Worship". Sources do state there are similarity's with Trumpism and Fascism. but that can be summed up as Fascism and Trumpism are inherently National Populist ideologies, and that they are right-wing movements. The image also doesn't adequately represent the movement like the other images in the heading. Another concern I have about this image is if it was uploaded with negative attentions. why do I think this? Because the file is called "Fascism Worship" and Trumpism is a Contentious subject. thank you, I'm going to bed and will be back tomorrow afternoon Zyxrq (talk) 08:13, 20 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

If sources do state there are similarities between Trumpism and Fascism, what precisely makes it an NPOV violation? Would it be more appropriate for the Christian Trumpism section? DN (talk) 08:55, 20 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
If we are going to keep the image I would agree its more appropriate for the for the Christian Trumpism section. Though I would say that there are plenty of images that would give a more arcuate representation of the movement when talking about the Religious section of Trumpism. I think a images like the ones seen on the websites I just linked would be a big improvement. [[2]] [[3]] [[4]] [[5]] I will go and look for better images. Zyxrq (talk) 18:03, 20 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Specifically a image with a Trump flag and the Christian flag would be a good image to upload.
Zyxrq (talk) 18:44, 20 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Since there are essentially two images of the St. Johns photo op (one is the promo video), I would propose moving it down and replacing one of those with it, if there is consensus. DN (talk) 21:26, 20 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
That sounds like a good idea. Zyxrq (talk) 23:25, 20 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
That flag is commonly used with Protestant Christians, is it your intention to target them or do you wish to include Catholics? Sindenheim (talk) 04:31, 18 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Sindenheim See WP:NOTFORUM DN (talk) 13:49, 18 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The importance of whether or not to address conservative Catholic support of Donald Trump, I think, Is relevant to this article. Sindenheim (talk) 21:48, 18 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Sindenheim That was not your question. Your original question about whether they will be "targeted as well" seems to imply general bad faith assumptions, does not specify any requested changes in particular or point to any specific citations or context. Catholic support of Trump is only relevant to this article in the context of Trumpism. DN (talk) 15:41, 19 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I regret my use of the word target, as it seems rather aggressive which was not how I wanted it to come across. I was saying whether they were using the flag to "target" protestant christians, as in making a point to exhibit the overwhelming support of Trump in (southern) protestant communities, or if they wanted to exhibit general christian support, in which the flag could be misleading. I didn't put forth a specific change in my post because we were having a discussion about a certain change and whether we would support it, and I was clarifying some information about it. It wasn't my intention to put forth any new material to that specific edit prospect. Although my wording wasn't perfect, you misunderstood what I said and tried to accuse me of violating talk page rules. I would appreciate if you repeal that statement, thank you. Sindenheim (talk) 21:37, 20 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I didn't accuse you of anything, I simply made an observation about the language you were using, which you seem to regret, but have yet to repeal or strike. I apologize if I misunderstood you, but I think you have confirmed why that misunderstanding may have happened. DN (talk) 23:08, 21 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I figured it was evident you were implying that I was violating the specific talk page rule you linked. Sindenheim (talk) 20:28, 18 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I support leaving the image as is. The naming of the image as "Fascism Worship" refers to the name of the image on the Flickr page where it comes from in order to provide attribution of the image to the photographer. The name does not represent the bias of a Wikimedia uploader deciding to rename the image. Furthermore, this page does include several sources that describe Trumpism in relation to a "cult of personality," so it is not out of place and inflammatory, as it relates directly to the content discussed in the page. However, I also agree with Zyxrq that adding in another image to the Christian Trumpism section would be helpful. Currently, we have a video of the St. John's Church photo op and a picture of Trump holding a bible from the St. John's Church photo op in the same section. We can remove the video (more relevant to the page on the actual event) and add in another one of the images you linked to Zyxrq, as I think they do a better job of conveying the sense of the section. BootsED (talk) 01:32, 22 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@BootsED I know I wasn't referring to a "Wikimedia uploader". I was referring to the "Flickr page". Yes Trumpism has a cult of personality element to it but its not big enough or influences Trumpism enough in the way the image is portraying to warrant being included in the heading. It would simply be violating Undue weight to keep it on the heading. Zyxrq (talk) 04:56, 22 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@BootsED My apology's for not being specific. Zyxrq (talk) 04:59, 22 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Zyxrq, I was tempted to say something the first time but figured someone would point this out, but it hasn't happened, and now it's happened again. You use the word "pacific" twice when you mean "specifically" and "specific". It's not a biggie, since typos are a dime a dozen around here, but this is not a typo and should be fixed. -- Valjean (talk) (PING me) 18:30, 22 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you! Zyxrq (talk) 19:10, 22 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Valjean Stop being so Atlantic. XD. DN (talk) 20:03, 22 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Hahaha. It was funny while it lasted.;-) Carlstak (talk) 02:01, 23 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
It was funny lol Zyxrq (talk) 02:20, 23 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
It's just a Trump rally. Politicalfactchecker99 (talk) 15:48, 16 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Political Bias

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WP:NOTFORUM
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.

This entire article is blatantly misleading and characterizes the “Trumpism” movement in an inaccurate way. Hopefully someone with editing powers can correct this to something more accurate and useful. The article conveys a severe lack of understanding and is extremely politically charged in one direction. 2600:6C63:427F:A528:3CE3:12CE:F670:BD67 (talk) 17:11, 21 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Yes. the entire thing is just a hate article making trump and all his followers out to be these horrible evil people with no morals. Where is the Bidenism article so we at least have one for both sides. Trimetwes fan1003 (talk) 21:15, 25 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I understand your frustration with this article, even if I might not share your point of view. Even though I lean left politically myself on many issues, I can readily observe and concede that many of Wikipedia's editors are extremely biased on certain topics, in a way that is not reflective of humanity as a whole or the total corpus of useful published information. That, in turn affects their judgements about what to say, what not to say, and how to say it; what sources to cite and what sources to ignore. That is a problem, and even people who do not like Donald Trump should be able to concede that and work to remediate it.
If you want to have a hand in contributing to the article, a good first step would be to look for reliable sources that are not currently cited in the article. I have no doubt that they exist. Google Scholar might be a good place to start. I see that the very first article listed, "Dysfunction by Design: Trumpism as administrative doctrine", is not cited in this article, and I suspect that there are many other academic articles that are uncited, also. You may be surprised to find that scholarly literature is often critical of & more nuanced than popular journalistic coverage, reflecting the fact that scholars are usually much more educated on the topics they discuss than journalists and newspaper writers.
As for your remark about "Bidenism" - I know your comment was mostly an expression of frustration about this article, but there are actually quite a few reliable sources that use the term "Bidenism". There may be enough to create an interesting and informative article about the term. If you are interested in looking further into that, you can leave a message at my talk page and maybe I can help you.
I hope that your frustration about POV issues don't deter you from learning how to contribute to Wikipedia effectively. Philomathes2357 (talk) 00:26, 26 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The New Propaganda War

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These are excellent articles (a MUST read!) dealing with MAGA's war against truth, freedom, and democracy. It is carried on by elements of Trumpism (MAGA, GOP, Trump) and Trump's autocratic dictator friends.

  • "The New Propaganda War"[1]
  • Oliver Darcy's commentary about it: "Journalist sounds alarm on dangers of propaganda, calling it 'one of the worst crises for American democracy this century'"[2]

The refs are fully usable as is. -- Valjean (talk) (PING me) 19:41, 8 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

On a side note, I recently came across an opinion by another editor that historians, unlike Anne Applebaum, are not to be considered "experts" or historians, without certain accreditations such as a degree in history, which Applebaum has, and or publishing in academic journals. It's not my intention to hijack, so feel free to respond on my page. Cheers. DN (talk) 21:36, 8 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
It's a RS that's on-topic. That's all. -- Valjean (talk) (PING me) 21:40, 8 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Hat personalized comments that add more heat than light
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
This, IMHO, is a textbook example of problematic sourcing methodology in that it quite openly seeks to co-opt selected RS (this status being determined by mechanically consulting the RSP color-coding rather than in full adherence to the PG&E on sourcing) opinion pieces to support a predetermined statement driven by specific editor-held views, rather than surveying the body of RS and distilling them into an encyclopedic format. RadioactiveBoulevardier (talk) 06:30, 12 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The body of reliable sourcing is in agreement on this. "Reality has a well-known liberal bias" and all that. Zaathras (talk) 11:58, 12 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
While it’s extremely ironic that Colbert is being quoted here of all places, I don’t completely disagree. I just think that one or more major authors of this page and its lead clearly decided to give Trump the full-scale Antichrist treatment instead of discussing him with the sobriety that we accord to various people a whole lot worse than him.
Anyway, my concern was with tone and the GIGO (technical sense not literal) concerns about methodology that comments like Valjean’s OP naturally spark. I originally had jumped in because I’m watching this page for some reason I’ve half forgotten. And also because 1) I was in the mood that day to speak my mind frankly 2) it pisses me off when nonpartisan cleanup processes such as GOCE are interfered with, as they have been in the past 3) whenever there is an entrenched group of editors forcefully dominating a broad topic area (and ampol is the single worst offender as at least in PIA there are two opposing cliques and other geopolitical CT are typically almost pastoral by comparison if you’re not a citizen of a participant), that really pisses me off.
I don’t intend any incivility by anything above, but I’ve had a long day and I’m not feeling inhibited. Have a great night.
RadioactiveBoulevardier (talk) 08:24, 26 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
After having written the above, I saw that the lead has been improved noticeably since I last read it several weeks ago. Cool. RadioactiveBoulevardier (talk) 08:26, 26 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@RadioactiveBoulevardier When you said "this...is a textbook example of problematic sourcing methodology", what are you referring to? Valjean's original post, or DN's remark? Could you please expand on your concern? Philomathes2357 (talk) 00:35, 26 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Valjean’s remarks naturally. Why? RadioactiveBoulevardier (talk) 08:04, 26 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
RadioactiveBoulevardier, fortunately I just happened to notice this. You should strike your comment above at 06:30, 12 May 2024, and maybe your subsequent comments, as they are grossly personalizing this and assuming bad faith. Comment on content, not editors. That source is not even (yet) used in the article and is provided as an excellent commentary and analysis. You don't have to agree with it, but you shouldn't poison the well here and assume bad faith in other editors. Remember that using an editor's political persuasion against them can be seen as a personal attack. Analyze the content in isolation from the editor, unless there is a clear pattern of violation of PAG and BLP. Then do it on the editor's talk page and try to peacefully improve the situation, not attack and start more fires.
My and others' political bent is irrelevant to this thread. Discuss the source. You claim you "don’t intend any incivility by anything above," but (that you say that reveals it can be understood that way) that's exactly what it is. Your comments are uncivil, personal attacks, and they assume bad faith by attributing to personal ideology what can be attributed to a million other innocent factors. -- Valjean (talk) (PING me) 16:05, 27 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

There is a difference between left-leaning bias and flat lies.

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This is incredibly misleading and does not represent at all what Trumpism is. For example, Trump supporters favor LEGAL immigration. That does not make them "anti-immigration". How is any way shape or form is he authoritarian? Trump supporters fully support the constitution- it is a flat out life.

I understand wikipedia has a left leaning bias and I am totally okay with that. But this article is just false. There is no other way to put it. It is not what Trump supporters believe. It is what the far-left labels Trump supporters. Wow - never seen such misinformation. 207.237.76.147 (talk) 17:43, 1 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I almost forgot- "heavily favors racist attacks"??? This is the most absurd statement of all time presented as fact. Please give one example. The implication is that roughly have the country supports racist attacks. I am in absolute shock that this is an actual wikipedia article. You can totally disagree with Trump, but this is misinformation regarding what Trumpism is and what him and his supporters believe. 207.237.76.147 (talk) 17:53, 1 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Those little numbers in brackets are citations. Click them. Zaathras (talk) 18:45, 1 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Zaathras The citation for the anti-immigration part links to a NY Times article in it Trump is claimed to have said immigrants were "poisoning the blood of the country" which he did say but if you hear all of what he said it can be easily understood that he was referring to illegal migrants and not immigrants in general. Being opposed to mass illegal migration isn't the same as being anti-immigration. The NYTimes article itself is misleading and stretches the truth. Therefore it cannot be a sufficient source to support the claim that Trump and Trumpism are anti-immigration. Listenhereyadonkey (talk) 23:13, 7 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
There are two true statements here: 1) Wikipedia repeats what "reliable sources" say about Trumpism, and 2) the "reliable sources" do not accurately characterize what Trump supporters really think. Therefore, as far as Wikipedia's policies are concerned, this is a great article. But in terms of actually educating Wikipedia readers about what Trump supporters think, it's an awful article. @Listenhereyadonkey, are you the IP editor who started this thread? Philomathes2357 (talk) 23:19, 7 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Philomathes2357 no I am not the IP user who started this thread. Listenhereyadonkey (talk) 23:21, 7 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Your personal interpretations of what you think the sources say are irrelevant. This can be taken as a response to both of the users immediately above. Zaathras (talk) 00:09, 8 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Zaathras The New York Times is known to have obvious left wing bias. Just like how Fox News has an obvious right wing bias. The New York times have even endorsed every Democratic presidential candidate since 1960. You can't deny the New York Times' bias. If we can't have Fox News we sure can't have the NY times. Even the wikipedia article on NY times talks about its bias. 2601:548:8203:8C10:11C7:8B47:D244:2EA7 (talk) 22:07, 1 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Trumpism

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I just read the Wikipeadia presentation. Amazing. Wow 207.171.252.110 (talk) 23:16, 18 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

This Article is Utterly Misleading.

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There is more 20 sources that claim that Trump is fascist, but there us also more that 20 sources that claim the opposite. Alexandernorman1245 (talk) 23:19, 21 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Present them. All 20. Zaathras (talk) 23:44, 21 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Agreed, there could also be 20 left leaning sources that say he is a fascist, but there could obviously be 20 right leaning sources that say he isn't one. The only way wikipedia can be unbiased is if they use unbiased sources instead of the left leaning sources they use today. 2601:548:8203:8C10:A031:E551:BD6C:DFA1 (talk) 14:38, 31 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Except that the sources aren't left-leaning. Plenty of them are even academic sources. — Czello (music) 14:44, 31 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Academic, but not unbiased. In fact academies and universities are some of the most left leaning places on earth. 2601:548:8203:8C10:11C7:8B47:D244:2EA7 (talk) 21:52, 1 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Unless there are specific sources you can prove are partisan then this is moot. — Czello (music) 21:54, 1 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Which source do you want me to prove is biased? I can prove any one you want. 2601:548:8203:8C10:11C7:8B47:D244:2EA7 (talk) 22:14, 1 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Fascism or Neofascism

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It has already been decided that the fascism sidebar should be kept on the page as for RFC, but something that hasn't been mentioned is the fact that the sidebar for fascism doesn't contain any mention of Trumpism, while the neofascism one does. Shouldn't it be neofascism then? XCBRO172 (talk) 05:28, 28 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Semi-protected edit request on 8 July 2024

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Please remove the errant ref tag here:

* {{cite journal |last=Yang|first=Mimi |title=Trumpism: a disfigured Americanism|journal=Palgrave Communications |volume=4 |date=25 September 2018 |pages=1–13 |doi= 10.1057/s41599-018-0170-0|doi-access=free|quote=Trump’s “America First” is not exactly original but from a culturally genetic and historic make-up that builds the vertical America. The xenophobic and anti-immigration rhetoric has its origin in nativism that harbors white nationalism, populism, protectionism and isolationism ... Trumpism is not Americanism, but a masqueraded white supremacism and nativism; it is a disfigured Americanism in its vertical form.}}</ref>

. 76.14.122.5 (talk) 19:55, 8 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

 Done And I found a second one while I was at it. Thanks, and well-spotted. --AntiDionysius (talk) 20:03, 8 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The redirect Trump's politics has been listed at redirects for discussion to determine whether its use and function meets the redirect guidelines. Readers of this page are welcome to comment on this redirect at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2024 July 24 § Trump's politics until a consensus is reached. Steel1943 (talk) 19:50, 24 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The redirect Rivet media attention on Donald Trump has been listed at redirects for discussion to determine whether its use and function meets the redirect guidelines. Readers of this page are welcome to comment on this redirect at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2024 July 24 § Rivet media attention on Donald Trump until a consensus is reached. Steel1943 (talk) 19:54, 24 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The redirect Support for Donald Trump has been listed at redirects for discussion to determine whether its use and function meets the redirect guidelines. Readers of this page are welcome to comment on this redirect at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2024 July 24 § Support for Donald Trump until a consensus is reached. Steel1943 (talk) 20:16, 24 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Article needs a complete overhaul

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This is without a doubt one of the most biased articles ever. "Trumpism" is a concept that is mostly used, mostly (but not entirely), by political opponents, activists and voters who are against Trump. This article makes it seems like Trumpism is an actual ideology, and the list of things it supposedly includes (not just things it is accused of being) is heavily biased and without a doubt comes across like the people who wrote this article loathe Donald Trump, it needs a complete overhaul, it absolutely is designed to paint Donald Trump in a negative light.

Consider rewriting the article starting with something along the lines of, "Trumpism is a term often used to describe beliefs about politics, government and policy as well as actions caused by their level of vigour of support, by supporters of Donald Trump", maybe a bit of a mess and not concise, but it's better than what we have now. 2.100.206.55 (talk) 15:29, 7 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

agree 66.235.0.67 (talk) 05:23, 18 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
It is a cult of personality centered around Donald Trump and by that extension also an ideology. I'm not sure how changes would need to be applied as you're stating them? 75.142.254.3 (talk) 20:48, 10 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Categories rules

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Does Trumpism have to actually be "White Supremacy", "Fascism", "Christian Nationalism" and a "Disinformation Operation" for these categories to actually apply to this page, it would seem as if this page is saying that Trump is all of those things, or does a page have to be accused of being those things to be included, if it's actually saying Trump is those things not only is that extreme bias but it is also not true! 2.100.206.55 (talk) 15:32, 7 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Due to how many instances of Trump spreading some sort of misinformation (see False or misleading statements by Donald Trump for examples), Trumpism can be defined as a disinformation operation and the category is applicable to the article.
QUICKWITTEDHARE CONVERSE 16:18, 7 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
i agree 162.58.82.135 (talk) 01:17, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Trumpism and Populism in the United States

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I am new to Wikipedia.

I have found a brief paragraph on Donald Trump under "Populism in the United States". It seems objective. Yet I found different categories and lots of paragraphs under "Trumpism" and Populist themes, sentiments, and methods. These categories and paragraphs also seem objective.

I believe a consideration should be given to merging the two in some way. The Populist themes, sentiments, and methods under "Trumpism" seem to naturally fit under Donald Trump under "Populism in the United States".

Thoughts anyone? Karl Trautman (talk) 00:37, 23 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Possible SYNTH in the lead

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See edit under consideration for exclusion of material proposed by FMSky. Cheers. DN (talk) 20:44, 21 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

It shouldn't even be in the lead at all, as none of this is mentioned in the body of the article. See WP:LEADFOLLOWSBODY --FMSky (talk) 20:58, 21 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
To make sure we know the topic, here is the content that was deleted without any discussion, and now has been restored, but not in the lead:

Trumpism has been described as authoritarian[a] and neo-fascist.[b] Trumpist rhetoric features anti-immigrant,[35] xenophobic,[36] nativist,[37] and racist attacks against minority groups.[38][39] Identified aspects include conspiracist,[40][41] isolationist,[37][42] Christian nationalist,[43] evangelical Christian,[44] protectionist,[45][46] anti-feminist,[11][7] and anti-LGBT[47] beliefs.

So you don't see any of that mentioned in the body? It's a pretty significant and important topic that should be mentioned in the lead as it really defines Trump and Trumpism. -- Valjean (talk) (PING me) 21:36, 21 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I just checked one random source and this one doesnt even include the word "Trumpism" https://web.archive.org/web/20231104130615/https://www.nytimes.com/2023/10/05/us/politics/trump-immigration-rhetoric.html I expect the other ones to be similar

Hmmm. I wonder if there is a line between Trump's thinking and rhetoric and Trumpism. He sets the agenda which his MAGA base follow, and that's all "Trumpism". -- Valjean (talk) (PING me) 21:46, 21 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
And that would be WP:OR and/or WP:SYNTHESIS
It could be. Some refs may need to be moved or deleted. (Please sign your comments.) -- Valjean (talk) (PING me) 21:50, 21 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
While the citations aren't necessary for the body lead, I can understand why they may be there in an article such as this. FM's concern in regard to LEADFOLLOWSBODY makes sense, and we really shouldn't turn the lead into a list of descriptors. Would everyone agree it needs to explain the prominent aspects and try to use a bit less specificity? Let's stick with what is essential in the lead and put the rest back into the body via WP:PRESERVE. Cheers. DN (talk) 00:44, 22 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

References

  1. ^ LeVine, Marianne; Arnsdorf, Isaac (2023-12-13). "Trump backers laugh off, cheer 'dictator' comments, as scholars voice alarm". The Washington Post. ISSN 0190-8286. Archived from the original on December 15, 2023. Retrieved 2024-01-08.
  2. ^ Bender, Michael C.; Gold, Michael (2023-11-20). "Trump's Dire Words Raise New Fears About His Authoritarian Bent". The New York Times. ISSN 0362-4331. Archived from the original on December 8, 2023. Retrieved 2024-01-08.
  3. ^ Baker, Peter (2023-12-09). "Talk of a Trump Dictatorship Charges the American Political Debate". The New York Times. ISSN 0362-4331. Archived from the original on December 9, 2023. Retrieved 2024-01-08.
  4. ^ Arnsdorf, Isaac; Dawsey, Josh; Barrett, Devlin (2023-11-05). "Trump and allies plot revenge, Justice Department control in a second term". The Washington Post. Archived from the original on November 5, 2023. Retrieved 2024-01-08.
  5. ^ Colvin, Jill; Barrow, Bill (2023-12-08). "Trump's vow to only be a dictator on 'day one' follows growing worry over his authoritarian rhetoric". AP News. Archived from the original on 8 December 2023. Retrieved 2024-01-08.
  6. ^ Stone, Peter (2023-11-22). "'Openly authoritarian campaign': Trump's threats of revenge fuel alarm". The Guardian. Archived from the original on November 27, 2023. Retrieved 2024-01-08.
  7. ^ a b Beinart, Peter (January 2019). "The New Authoritarians Are Waging War on Women". The Atlantic. Archived from the original on January 27, 2024. Retrieved January 27, 2024.
  8. ^ Breslin, Maureen (2021-11-08). "Former aide: Trump would 'absolutely' impose some form of autocracy in second term". The Hill. Archived from the original on September 25, 2023. Retrieved 2023-09-25.
  9. ^ Baker, Peter (2022-06-10). "Trump Is Depicted as a Would-Be Autocrat Seeking to Hang Onto Power at All Costs". The New York Times. ISSN 0362-4331. Archived from the original on June 10, 2022. Retrieved 2023-09-25.
  10. ^ Gessen, Masha (2020-06-27). "Since day one, Donald Trump has been an autocrat in the making". The Observer. ISSN 0029-7712. Archived from the original on September 25, 2023. Retrieved 2023-09-25.
  11. ^ a b Kaul 2021.
  12. ^ a b Adler, Paul S.; Adly, Amr; Armanios, Daniel Erian; Battilana, Julie; Bodrožić, Zlatko; Clegg, Stewart; Davis, Gerald F.; Gartenberg, Claudine; Glynn, Mary Ann; Gümüsay, Ali Aslan; Haveman, Heather A.; Leonardi, Paul; Lounsbury, Michael; McGahan, Anita M.; Meyer, Renate; Phillips, Nelson; Sheppard-Jones, Kara (2022). "Authoritarianism, Populism, and the Global Retreat of Democracy: A Curated Discussion" (PDF). Journal of Management Inquiry. 32 (1): 3–20. doi:10.1177/10564926221119395. S2CID 251870215. Archived (PDF) from the original on January 14, 2024. Retrieved January 14, 2024. The decoupling of the man from the movement suggests that authoritarianism can continue well beyond the authoritarian's rule. The most enduring vestige—apart from the democratic institutions attacked—is Trumpism. It has metastasized from Trump's delusional framing on his inauguration day in 2017—with the biggest crowds ever—to a widespread and ambient movement, amplified by disinformation and distortion, broadcast in social and right-wing media, aggressively militant, and framed with falsehoods.
  13. ^ a b Cite error: The named reference Shapiro-2021 was invoked but never defined (see the help page).
  14. ^ Kellner 2018.
  15. ^ a b Badiou 2019, p. 19.
  16. ^ a b Giroux 2021.
  17. ^ a b Ibish 2020.
  18. ^ a b Cockburn 2020.
  19. ^ a b West 2020.
  20. ^ a b Gorski 2019.
  21. ^ a b Benjamin 2020.
  22. ^ a b Morris 2019, p. 10.
  23. ^ a b McGaughey 2018.
  24. ^ a b Tarizzo 2021, p. 163.
  25. ^ Hopkin & Blyth 2020.
  26. ^ "Trump's world: The new nationalism". The Economist. 19 November 2016. Archived from the original on August 24, 2018. Retrieved January 20, 2024.
  27. ^ "The growing peril of national conservatism". The Economist. February 15, 2024. Archived from the original on February 15, 2024. Retrieved March 14, 2024.
  28. ^ Rushkoff, Douglas (7 July 2016). "The New Nationalism Of Brexit And Trump Is A Product Of The Digital Age". Fast Company. Archived from the original on March 1, 2017. Retrieved January 20, 2024.
  29. ^ Goldberg, Jonah (16 August 2016). "'New nationalism' amounts to generic white identity politics". Newsday. Archived from the original on November 26, 2016. Retrieved January 20, 2024. To listen to both his defenders and critics, Donald Trump represents the U.S. version of a new nationalism popping up around the world.
  30. ^ Beauchamp, Zack (2019-07-17). "Trump and the dead end of conservative nationalism". Vox. Archived from the original on January 9, 2024. Retrieved 2023-07-08.
  31. ^ Butler 2016.
  32. ^ Chomsky 2020.
  33. ^ Berkeley News 2020.
  34. ^ Drutman 2021.
  35. ^ Gabriel, Trip (2023-10-06). "Trump Escalates Anti-Immigrant Rhetoric With 'Poisoning the Blood' Comment". The New York Times. ISSN 0362-4331. Archived from the original on January 17, 2024. Retrieved 2023-12-19.
  36. ^ Baker, Perry & Whitehead 2020.
  37. ^ a b Yang 2018.
  38. ^ Mason, Wronski & Kane 2021.
  39. ^ Ott 2017, p. 64.
  40. ^ Hamilton 2024.
  41. ^ Tollefson 2021.
  42. ^ Lange 2024.
  43. ^ Whitehead, Perry & Baker 2018.
  44. ^ Wilkinson, Francis (7 April 2024). "Trumpism Is Emptying Churches". www.bloomberg.com. Retrieved 2024-06-01.
  45. ^ Irwin, Douglas A. (April 17, 2017). "The False Promise of Protectionism". Foreign Affairs. 96 (May/June 2017). Archived from the original on January 27, 2024. Retrieved January 17, 2024.
  46. ^ "Donald Trump's second term would be a protectionist nightmare". The Economist. October 31, 2023. Archived from the original on January 16, 2024. Retrieved January 17, 2024.
  47. ^ "America's far right is increasingly protesting against LGBT people". The Economist. January 13, 2023. Archived from the original on May 24, 2023. Retrieved January 22, 2024.

Very long

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This article is too long to read and navigate comfortably. When the tag was added, its readable prose size was 14,815 words. Consider splitting content into sub-article or condensing it. The article size impacts usability in multiple ways: Reader issues, such as attention span, readability, organization, information saturation, etc. (when articles are large). Total article size should be kept reasonably low, particularly for readers using slow internet connections or mobile devices or who have slow computer loading. Some large articles exist for topics that require depth and detail, but typically articles of such size are split into two or more smaller articles.

Word count What to do
> 15,000 words Almost certainly should be divided or trimmed.
this article
14,815 words
Almost certainly should be divided or trimmed
> 9,000 words Probably should be divided or trimmed.

Isaidnoway (talk) 07:00, 7 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I think the section on Christian support for Trump should be spun out into its own article with a link to the new page where it is right now. There's a lot more on that subject to add that would make this page too long. This would drastically reduce the page size. BootsED (talk) 18:48, 7 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

False Information

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This article attacks Trump supporters and calls them things that they are not. The writer(s) are anti-Trump, Trump haters, who are racist, fascist, communist, and anti-Americans. "Trumpism" isn't a thing. This page should be taken down and the writer(s) should be banned from Wikipedia. Remington270ws (talk) 04:46, 15 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Everything in the article is sourced; the "writers" are merely relaying what sources say. — Czello (music) 07:50, 15 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Doesn't mean what the articles say is true, especially when they are left-biased written articles. Remington270ws (talk) 09:45, 15 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
See WP:TRUTH. — Czello (music) 09:48, 15 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]


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