Talk:Tropical Storm Karen (2019)

Redirect back to season article?

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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I question Karen's notability, as it never did significant damage anywhere, and was both weak and short lived. I suggest redirecting back to the 2019 Atlantic hurricane season article. James-the-Charizard (talk to me!) (contribs) 01:00, 28 September 2019 (UTC)

Wait Let's give it some time to see how much damage Karen has done. It's highly unlikely that the storm has caused any fatalities, though. INeedSupport ^:V 19:03, 28 September 2019 (UTC)

INeedSupport I wasn't trying to be hasty... But from it's track and it's strength, it looked like an average storm. That is why I assumed a lack of notability... James-the-Charizard (talk to me!) (contribs) 22:58, 28 September 2019 (UTC)

@James-the-Charizard: Apologizes since you saw that as hasty. To be honest, I do agree with you somewhat. It is a weak storm that is semi-short lived. However, since it impacted land, I just wanted to see how much damage it does to judge if this article should be merged or not. INeedSupport ^:V 03:57, 29 September 2019 (UTC)

INeedSupport I definitely don't object to a wait-and-see approach, as damage estimates are not done. James-the-Charizard (talk to me!) (contribs) 04:01, 29 September 2019 (UTC)

Support @INeedSupport and James-the-Charizard: Seems that there is no report of ant deaths and damages associated with Karen. I support a merge. --137.189.240.29 (talk) 03:54, 9 October 2019 (UTC)

137.189.240.29 It is seeming more like it. My quick glance at a search turned up not much, most sources claiming minimal damage. INeedSupport It's been roughly 11 days, how much longer should we wait to determine damage estimates? James-the-Charizard (talk to me!) (contribs) 03:57, 9 October 2019 (UTC)

@James-the-Charizard: 11 days is a lot of time. I think it’s safe to say that this article needs to be merged. INeedSupport ^:V 04:06, 9 October 2019 (UTC)

INeedSupport I myself am unfortunately not good at merging pages so I will leave it to another user. James-the-Charizard (talk to me!) (contribs) 10:34, 9 October 2019 (UTC)

@James-the-Charizard: I went ahead and redirected this article to 2019 Atlantic Hurricane Season. INeedSupport ^:V 15:33, 9 October 2019 (UTC)

INeedSupport Thanks! James-the-Charizard (talk to me!) (contribs) 15:38, 9 October 2019 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Creating it

@Robloxsupersuperhappyface: Are you done with this? I know that you probably aren't finished, but it's properly sourced, and there looks to be enough prose sufficient for an article. Stay safe, Cyclone Toby 18:49, 27 December 2020 (UTC)

Almost done just gonna do some slight expansions on Trinidad and Tobago and Puerto Rico then finish adding the sources used twice. Should be done before the new year. Thank you!Robloxsupersuperhappyface (talk) 20:34, 27 December 2020 (UTC)

@CycloneToby:, also I may have to change the damage total since I think its 24 million in TTD rather than USD. That would make it a little over $3.5 million USD. Other than that I’m almost finished :)Robloxsupersuperhappyface (talk) 20:42, 27 December 2020 (UTC)

@Cyclone Toby:, whoops forgot the space :) Robloxsupersuperhappyface (talk) 20:44, 27 December 2020 (UTC)

@Robloxsupersuperhappyface: Its cool, and the article looks like a C. That's quite good, I must say. Stay safe, Cyclone Toby 00:43, 28 December 2020 (UTC)

@Cyclone Toby: What changes do you think need to be made to get it to a B when that time comes?Robloxsupersuperhappyface (talk) 01:51, 28 December 2020 (UTC)

@Robloxsupersuperhappyface: A little bit of expansion, all grammar is good, and make sure everything is properly sourced. Stay safe, Cyclone Toby 01:53, 28 December 2020 (UTC)

@Cyclone Toby:, also can you help me with the US Virgin Islands impacts. The Virgin Islands Daily News only allows people to read 3 articles for free, and I used 1 for Hurricane Laura and 2 for this article. Could you help me expand the US Territory section by reading these two articles below on their website, and using any information you find.

Website = http://www.virginislandsdailynews.com/

After that just scroll down until you see a search bar on the right and in the bar, search “Tropical Storm Karen”.

Then read “Waves Crashing Over Veterans Drive were not unexpected” and “Anguilla Landfall closed due to storm damage”. After that add in any great info you can find.

It’s fine if you can’t do it. Thank you and stay safe!Robloxsupersuperhappyface (talk) 02:10, 28 December 2020 (UTC)

@Robloxsupersuperhappyface: Will do. I get the frustration when it doesnt let you read that many articles. Stay safe, Cyclone Toby 02:12, 28 December 2020 (UTC)

@Cyclone Toby:, ikr it’s like after a few articles it’s like. “Open the wallet and subscribe to us... NOW!” Lol :) Stay safeRobloxsupersuperhappyface (talk) 02:18, 28 December 2020 (UTC)

@Robloxsupersuperhappyface: oh my lord you just summed it up in eight words... I never thought of it that way LOL! Stay safe, Cyclone Toby 02:30, 28 December 2020 (UTC)

@Cyclone Toby:, also I’m having to us Trinidad and Tobago Newsday for almost every impact sentence in the Trinidad and Tobago section. It’s like all the other news companies were like, “Oh a tropical storm named Karen is coming. Oh no she’s coming to see the manager! Quick! Everybody stop writing and take a nap.” Lol. Thanks!Robloxsupersuperhappyface (talk) 02:35, 28 December 2020 (UTC)

@Robloxsupersuperhappyface: there are so many memes about Karen. Gosh, this storm should of been retired because of the fear from managers in the area it affected. heheh. Also, no problem. Stay safe, Cyclone Toby 02:38, 28 December 2020 (UTC)

@Cyclone Toby:, hey, real quick question. Do you think I should add the damage total for boat damage in Roxborough in this article, because it may be unreliable due to it being from an interviewed fishermen.

https://newsday.co.tt/2019/09/25/tobago-fishermen-reeling-from-karens-fury/ Robloxsupersuperhappyface (talk) 02:52, 28 December 2020 (UTC)

@Robloxsupersuperhappyface: First of all, is the boats damage counted in the total, and second of all, either yes, put it in, or lower the damage to 25,000 because looking at a boats cost, its usually only around 12,000 dollars, so it may be wrong, and I would cut it in half. Stay safe, Cyclone Toby 02:56, 28 December 2020 (UTC)

@Cyclone Toby:, sorry if I’m asking for too much but do you know any great sources for info on Karen from Puerto Rico? Give me their website if you do. Thanks!Robloxsupersuperhappyface (talk) 03:12, 28 December 2020 (UTC)

@Robloxsupersuperhappyface: Looking at the search results for "Tropical Storm Karen Puerto Rico 2019" shows many websites. So, there isn't really one website, but there are a lot of sources out there. I will try my best to put them in the article. Also, can move this draft into article space? Stay safe, Cyclone Toby 03:16, 28 December 2020 (UTC)

Sure! I’ll just put in the last source used twice real quick and it should be done mostly. Thanks!Robloxsupersuperhappyface (talk) 03:47, 28 December 2020 (UTC)

@Cyclone Toby:, ok I’m done with the sourcing so you can move the draft into mainspace now. As for the PR info, you can look through English and I’ll look through Spanish. Is that fine with you? Thanks once more!Robloxsupersuperhappyface (talk) 03:54, 28 December 2020 (UTC)

@Robloxsupersuperhappyface: It's all good with me! I can do the English, as I don't have much fun trying to put in all the exótico (exotic...ish, I guess) letters in. Anyways, both of us should start doing our last edits of today, it's 11:02 for me (10:02 for you), so it's very late (well, I have stayed up until 1:00). Stay safe, Cyclone Toby 04:02, 28 December 2020 (UTC)

@Cyclone Toby:, lol I’m probably just gonna get this published and then play Roblox for a little bit since its Winter Break and I don’t have to deal with 8 classes and algebra tomorrow. Thanks again!Robloxsupersuperhappyface (talk) 04:05, 28 December 2020 (UTC)

@Robloxsupersuperhappyface: ah yea, roblox. A little off-topic for this, but what's your username? Stay safe, Cyclone Toby 04:07, 28 December 2020 (UTC)

@Cyclone Toby:, well it’s complicated but I own a few different Roblox accounts. My main is JontheGamerBoy (now you know my first name), but I also use Outback3030 (named after Outback Steakhouse) when I have to get away from my Roblox YouTube channel fans LOL. Stay safe!Robloxsupersuperhappyface (talk) 04:11, 28 December 2020 (UTC)

@Robloxsupersuperhappyface: well, expect a friend request from pattydiego (yeah I know, it's a pretty lame name). Stay safe, Cyclone Toby 04:13, 28 December 2020 (UTC)

@Cyclone Toby:, we have a little problem with moving it directly so I’ll submit the draft instead. Also, I like your username (it’s better than we one on my main I paid 1k robux to change)Robloxsupersuperhappyface (talk) 04:19, 28 December 2020 (UTC)

@Robloxsupersuperhappyface: yeah I saw that. You can submit it. Anyways, thanks. I’m gonna go to sleep. Stay safe, Cyclone Toby 04:23, 28 December 2020 (UTC)

@Cyclone Toby:, alright, thanks for the help with this draft! Have a nice rest. Don’5 let the bed bugs bite, because, they are very vicious creatures lolRobloxsupersuperhappyface (talk) 04:26, 28 December 2020 (UTC)

This draft is quite good! SMB99thx my edits! 13:26, 28 December 2020 (UTC)

To do

• Make sure all units have metric conversions, and make sure they're rounded properly. If the first unit is rounded, the second should be too.
• There seems to be one too many pics.
• Don't use nautical miles, be sure to convert to regular miles.
• Watch out for overlinking.
• Placenames with St in it should be abbreviated St.

♫ Hurricanehink (talk) 16:01, 28 December 2020 (UTC)

Was this a 100% from-scratch rewrite or was some stuff copied from the old version?

@Robloxsupersuperhappyface: was any "creative content" from the page that is now at Draft:Tropical Storm Karen (2019) (May 25 2020 revision) used in any revision this article?

If so, please fill out and add {{copied}} to BOTH this talk page, Talk:Tropical Storm Karen (2019), and the talk page of the now-redirect draft, Draft talk:Tropical Storm Karen (2019). I have already turned the "draft talk" page back into a regular talk page rather than having it be a redirect.

Also, if it does contain "creative content" please change the {{R with history}} line in Draft:Tropical Storm Karen (2019) to {{R from merge}} and CONSIDER asking for a "complex history merge" to merge in the pre-December-2020 edits of what is now the draft page into this page, discarding the leftover redirects, and the same for the pre-December 2020 edits of what is now the draft talk page into this talk page, discarding December 2020 edits on the "old" talk page. Template:histmerge has a |details= parameter that is specifically for spelling out the details in complex history merge, including spelling out what edits are to be discarded. If you don't use it, the request will likely be summarily rejected due to "overlapping histories."

On the other hand, if "creative content" was not copied over, everything can be left "as-is." davidwr/(talk)/(contribs) 🎄 17:28, 28 December 2020 (UTC)

I’m not 100% sure but that other draft seemed to be a copy of the main season article so I wouldn’t think I copied anything from it and I had no idea any draft/article (other than the merged one from Sept 2019) existed for this storm.Robloxsupersuperhappyface (talk) 17:35, 28 December 2020 (UTC)

@Davidwr:, yeah I don’t think so, everything from that other article was copied from the season article so it wasn’t copied because only 1 or 2 revision were taken from sources on the season’s article and not that draft. Thanks!Robloxsupersuperhappyface (talk) 17:38, 28 December 2020 (UTC)

@Davidwr:, hmmm it’s kind of confusing for me to figure this out, but maybe you could. About 3 sentences were written from scratch, however, they used sources that were found on the season. Would they be considered copied?Robloxsupersuperhappyface (talk) 17:48, 28 December 2020 (UTC)

Ah. If "creative content" came from the season article, technically, this needs to be acknowledged in some way, per WP:Copying within Wikipedia. I'm sure this kind of thing happens a lot in tropical cyclone articles, so if the WikiProject already has a "standard" way of doing this acknowledgement, use it. The "typical" way is by using Template:copied but cluttering up every hurricane-season-page with a slew of "copied" templates would be, well, clutter. If you aren't sure what the best solution is, I recommend asking on the WikiProject talk page. If there is no "standard" way of acknowledging copied text when making spin-offs from tropical cyclone season pages, then there needs to be one. davidwr/(talk)/(contribs) 🎄 17:51, 28 December 2020 (UTC)

Maybe you should do that since I’m not sure what you need.Robloxsupersuperhappyface (talk) 21:43, 28 December 2020 (UTC)

@Robloxsupersuperhappyface: I'm not either, which is why I asked at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Tropical cyclones § When a storm page is created from a season page, what is the preferred attribution method? davidwr/(talk)/(contribs) 🎄 23:34, 28 December 2020 (UTC)

Excellent

@Robloxsupersuperhappyface: Excellent work! I knew someone was going to create this article for Karen, which desperately needed one. Great work finding all the additional information. Hink has made a todo section above, which should be done before you go for GA. If you plan to GAN this, I can help you. Cheers, ~ Destroyer🌀🌀 22:07, 28 December 2020 (UTC)

Thanks! Cyclone Toby and I worked hard to make this article. I think I finished everything in that To-Do and right now my focus is to expand the impacts in Puerto Rico and the USVI to equal the info on preparations. Maybe you could help out if you want! Thank you!Robloxsupersuperhappyface (talk) 22:12, 28 December 2020 (UTC)

@Destroyeraa:, also I have a quick question. Are we allowed to put links to YouTube videos in the external links section?Robloxsupersuperhappyface (talk) 22:14, 28 December 2020 (UTC)

@Robloxsupersuperhappyface: No problem! YouTube links are usually not put in the external links section, per WP:YOUTUBE. However, if the link is appropriate, has no copyvio, and is not from an amateur site like Force Thirteen, then putting it may be okay. ~ Destroyer🌀🌀 22:20, 28 December 2020 (UTC)

@Destroyeraa:, hey! Quick question. How do I find information for storms like Karen from the National Center for Environmental Information?Robloxsupersuperhappyface (talk) 01:10, 29 December 2020 (UTC)

@Robloxsupersuperhappyface: https://www.ncdc.noaa.gov/stormevents/. ~ Destroyer🌀🌀 02:18, 29 December 2020 (UTC)

@Destroyeraa:, thanks I figured out before you gave me the link, but thank you! I’ll save the link for future references. I also want to ask you, do you think this article is ready for B class? Thanks!Robloxsupersuperhappyface (talk) 02:22, 29 December 2020 (UTC)

@Robloxsupersuperhappyface: I did a B-class review. It’s almost there. Just check for grammar errors, and make sure you spell out numbers less than ten and don’t begin sentences with numbers. Also, please make sure that linkable things (Tropical Storm Watch, Flood Watch) are linked, while not Overlinking at the same time. Finally, 45mph should be 45 mph and all pressure should be converted (1003 mbar (29.61 inHg)). Almost there! Cheers, ~ Destroyer🌀🌀 17:23, 29 December 2020 (UTC)

@Destroyeraa:, I’m done with the conversions and I checked everything off the To-Do list. Do you think the article is ready for B-class or a GA review.Robloxsupersuperhappyface (talk) 01:47, 31 December 2020 (UTC)

@Robloxsupersuperhappyface: Passed B-class. Cheers, and happy new year! ~ Destroyer🌀🌀 03:12, 31 December 2020 (UTC)

@Destroyeraa: yay, thank you! This is my first B-class article! Hope you have a great new year with your friends and/or family! Thank you!Robloxsupersuperhappyface (talk) 03:15, 31 December 2020 (UTC)

GA Review

This review is transcluded from Talk:Tropical Storm Karen (2019)/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: Destroyeraa (talk · contribs) 03:17, 31 December 2020 (UTC)

Lead

• was a weak tropical storm - Link tropical cyclone to tropical storm

 DoneRobloxsupersuperhappyface (talk) 15:03, 31 December 2020 (UTC)

• Link tropical cyclone naming to named storm

 DoneRobloxsupersuperhappyface (talk) 15:03, 31 December 2020 (UTC)

• Link tropical wave

 DoneRobloxsupersuperhappyface (talk) 15:03, 31 December 2020 (UTC)

• Link Tropical Atlantic

 DoneRobloxsupersuperhappyface (talk) 15:03, 31 December 2020 (UTC)

• However, just 12 hours later, Karen re-intensified into a tropical storm and entered the central Atlantic, early the next day. Remove "early the next day"

 DoneRobloxsupersuperhappyface (talk) 15:03, 31 December 2020 (UTC)

• Karen began to degrade on September 27 when it weakened into a tropical depression before degenerating into a surface trough, later that day. Why did it degrade? Wind shear? Also, split the sentence into two.  DoneRobloxsupersuperhappyface (talk) 15:03, 31 December 2020 (UTC) ~ Destroyer🌀🌀 03:17, 31 December 2020 (UTC)

Met history

• The wave was accompanied by large area of showers and thunderstorms as it moved over the Cabo Verde Islands. → "The wave was accompanied by a large area of convection, or showers and thunderstorms, as it moved over the Cabo Verde Islands." Add and link atmospheric convection because you use it further on

 DoneRobloxsupersuperhappyface (talk) 20:41, 7 January 2021 (UTC)

• The National Hurricane Center (NHC) began to monitor the system on September 18, while it was over the tropical Atlantic, for tropical cyclone formation. → "The National Hurricane Center (NHC) began to monitor the system for tropical cyclogenesis on September 18." Saying "while it was over the tropical Atlantic" is redundant.

 DoneRobloxsupersuperhappyface (talk) 14:27, 8 January 2021 (UTC)

• Link area of low pressure

 DoneRobloxsupersuperhappyface (talk) 20:41, 7 January 2021 (UTC)

• Soon after, Karen passed just north of Tobago How far north? If you can't find the exact number, it's ok. Also, when? "Soon after" is a bit ambiguous.

 DoneRobloxsupersuperhappyface (talk) 15:18, 11 January 2021 (UTC)

• Link wind shear to vertical wind shear.

 DoneRobloxsupersuperhappyface (talk) 20:41, 7 January 2021 (UTC)

• Although just a few hours later, thunderstorm activity began to flourish over the storm’s center.[1] At 6:00 UTC that day, Karen re-attained tropical storm status while located roughly 90 miles (145 km) southwest of St. Croix.[7] Next, At 6:00 UTC that day - what day?
  • @Robloxsupersuperhappyface: Sorry...no grammar mistake. At 6:00 UTC that day - You should mention the date more in the met history. ~ Destroyeraa🌀🇺🇸 16:06, 11 January 2021 (UTC)

 DoneRobloxsupersuperhappyface (talk) 17:54, 11 January 2021 (UTC)

• Nothing about it passing near Puerto Rico and the Virgin Islands?

 DoneRobloxsupersuperhappyface (talk) 15:25, 11 January 2021 (UTC)

• Later that day, Karen entered the central Atlantic, where dry air and wind shear began to affect the storm. Cut off where dry air and wind shear began to affect the storm.

 DoneRobloxsupersuperhappyface (talk) 14:33, 8 January 2021 (UTC)

• Regarding the above, change Although, the weakening was short-lived as convection developed over Karen’s center.

 DoneRobloxsupersuperhappyface (talk) 20:41, 7 January 2021 (UTC)

Preps and Impact

• No government shutdowns occurred due to the storm. This is unnecessary. Usually, we say what happened, not what didn't happen. Are government shutdowns regular in Trinidad and Tobago?

 DoneRobloxsupersuperhappyface (talk) 17:38, 11 January 2021 (UTC)

• Some of the worst impacts in the country were located in Tobago.[27] This should be moved up before A road in Tobago was littered with downed trees and utility poles.[25].

 DoneRobloxsupersuperhappyface (talk) 17:38, 11 January 2021 (UTC)

• All were discontinued by 9:00 UTC on September 25. Add "after the storm passed" after "September 25."
• 67 shelters were opened across the island. → "Across the island, the government opened 67 shelters." Don't start sentences with numbers.

 Done

• Put In Coamo, a bridge was swept away, isolating 15 families.[44] after Karen dropped a peak precipitation amount of 5 inches (127 mm) in Coamo.[39]. For example, "Karen dropped a peak precipitation amount of 5 inches (127 mm) in Coamo. In that down, a bridge was swept away, isolating 15 families."

 DoneRobloxsupersuperhappyface (talk) 17:48, 11 January 2021 (UTC)

• In the territory, 217 people were displaced by the storm. → In the territory, a total of 217 people were displaced by the storm.

 DoneRobloxsupersuperhappyface (talk) 17:48, 11 January 2021 (UTC)

• When Karen formed on September 22, a Tropical Storm Warning was issued for Grenada and Saint Vincent and the Grenadines. Change "a Tropical Storm Warning was issued" to "Tropical Storm Warnings were issued."

 DoneRobloxsupersuperhappyface (talk) 17:51, 11 January 2021 (UTC)

• Karen caused tropical storm conditions in Grenada where a Flood and Landslide warning was issued. → "Karen caused tropical storm conditions in Grenada, where Flood and Landslide warnings were issued."

 DoneRobloxsupersuperhappyface (talk) 17:51, 11 January 2021 (UTC)

That's all. ~ Destroyeraa🌀🇺🇸 16:06, 11 January 2021 (UTC)

Comment

• @Robloxsupersuperhappyface: Remember to sign your username after each of your responses, so other people can tell who the editors involved in the GA process were. LightandDark2000 🌀 (talk) 08:07, 31 December 2020 (UTC)

Question

@Destroyeraa:, the sentence “However, just 12 hours later, Karen re-intensified into a tropical storm and entered the central Atlantic, early the next day.” Those were actually two different events so I split the sentence. Is that ok? Robloxsupersuperhappyface (talk) 15:07, 31 December 2020 (UTC)

Yes, I think that's okay. 🐔 Chicdat  ^{Bawk to me!} 13:18, 1 January 2021 (UTC)

Another Question

@Destroyeraa:, I’ve ran “Although just a few hours later, thunderstorm activity began to flourish over the storm’s center. At 6:00 UTC that day, Karen re-attained tropical storm status while located roughly 90 miles (145 km) southwest of St. Croix.”, through a few grammar checkers and found nothing wrong with it. So what do you think needs changes?Robloxsupersuperhappyface (talk) 15:08, 11 January 2021 (UTC)

@Destroyeraa:, so I have finished all these. Is there anything else you think needs changes? Thanks!Robloxsupersuperhappyface (talk) 19:21, 11 January 2021 (UTC)

Final

GA review (see here for what the criteria are, and here for what they are not)

1. It is reasonably well written.

   a (prose, spelling, and grammar): b (MoS for lead, layout, word choice, fiction, and lists):

2. It is factually accurate and verifiable.

   a (reference section): b (citations to reliable sources): c (OR): d (copyvio and plagiarism):

3. It is broad in its coverage.

   a (major aspects): b (focused):

4. It follows the neutral point of view policy.

   Fair representation without bias:

5. It is stable.

   No edit wars, etc.:

6. It is illustrated by images and other media, where possible and appropriate.

   a (images are tagged and non-free content have fair use rationales): b (appropriate use with suitable captions):

7. Overall:

   Pass/Fail:

@Robloxsupersuperhappyface: After doing some source spotchecks, I am going to pass this. Congratulations on your first GA! ~ Destroyeraa🌀🇺🇸 19:36, 11 January 2021 (UTC)

@Destroyeraa:, OMG thank you so so much!!!Robloxsupersuperhappyface (talk) 19:37, 11 January 2021 (UTC)

Bringing up an old copyvio thing

Right, so above there was discussion about using the copied template or not. If any content was copied from one article to another, it must be attributed. I'll fix this later. Sennecaster (What now?) 12:55, 29 April 2021 (UTC)

No content was copied from any article, all work was rewritten from its version on the season article when added.DachshundLover82 (talk) 22:34, 30 April 2021 (UTC)