Talk:Toucouleur people

Toucouleur vs. Fula

I'd like to create a consensus around the question of whether the Toucouleur are a branch of the Fula or not, rather than engage in an edit war.

@Tamsier, would you please share your sources on the ethnic distinctions between Toucouleur and Fula? You'll find this article cited in the text that specifically tracks how the distinction between 'Toucouleur' and 'Fulbe' was a colonial construct meant to demean the nomadic Pulaar at the expense of their sedentary neighbors. I don't think we should perpetuate that construct here. Considering that Futa Toro, the homeland of the Toucouleurs, is called 'Futa' which means 'Home of the Fula' (e.g. Futa Jallon, Futa Kingui, etc.), and that the Toucouleur speak Pulaar, what is the clear distinction between the Fula and the Toucouleur that you're trying to draw?

Also, please stop with the personal attacks and POV accusations. I'm just trying to follow the evidence. Catjacket (talk) 09:46, 2 April 2024 (UTC)

Hi, I've read your article. I can't see any mention of the Tukuloor/Toucouleur. Please copy and paste here (as a quote) the relevant passage with respect to copyright so I can see how it is relevant to this article. Sorry, I was about to leave when I saw your notification. I'm responding here as a matter of courtesy. I do not dispute the fact that the colonial authorities did a number of horrible things on Senegambian soil. Too many to name. However, that's not the point here (other than the French referring to them as Toucouleur), as even before the colonialists' arrival, there were already distinct customs and history between the Tukuloor and Fula. Yes, the Tukuloor speak Pulaar (haal = speak — similar to the Serer term "paal" = to speak, Pulaar = Fula language ; Haalpulaar = those who speak the Fula language, and not necessarily Fula people). To lump them all as Fula when they have a distinct custom and history would be OR and POV pushing. Is like trying to call them Serers because of their Serer ancestry as evident in the article, sources, and the oral traditions of both the Serer and the Tukuloors themselves. To do that would be POV because the Tukuloor have a distinct customs and history separate from the Serer and the Fula. The Tukuloor are already a minority, and not a significantly large group independent of the Fulani. They are already a minority of their own. To try and lump them in with the Fula is like trying to deny them their culture and history. In essence, a form of Fulanization. I hope you don't want to do that. Their culture and history is equally as valuable to the overall mosaic of Senegambian history and culture. Taking that away from them by trying to lump them in with the Fula would be disingenous, not to mention harmful, and would have the same effect as Wolofization which the Fulani (amongst others) themselves have been fighting against for years. According to International Scientific Committee for the drafting of a General History of Africa, "General History of Africa: Africa from the Seventh to the Eleventh Century." (Volume 3 of Multiple History series: General history of Africa). UNESCO Publishing (1988), p. 128, ISBN 9789231017094 - [1] :

EDIT: "... while the sedenary people speaking the same language they suggest the name Tukulor (Toucouleur), regarding them as a different ethnic group. Although the two groups have different customs, the differences are due to socieconomic factors and have nothing to do with ethnic, linguistics or cultural consideration."

"If speculations and hypotheses about the origin and prehistoric migration of the Fulani are set aside, it is almost unanimously recognised today that in historic times the Fulani came from the Senegalese Futa and that the Senegalese group, the neighbour of their close relatives, the Sereer and the Wolof, should be regarded as the nucleus from which other groups whose language was Pular or Fulfulde spread out and emigrated towards the east and the south."

The first quote does not solve the issue either and adds to the complication.They still did not tell us what they call themselves before other than "it has nothing to do with..." And according to Reyna, Stephen P., (Contri: Elliott Percival Skinner, United States. Regional Economic Development Services Office, West Africa), "Sahelian Social Development." Regional Economic Development Services Office, West Africa, USAID (1980), p. 111:

"Though the Toucouleur of Senegal and Mauritania do not define themselves as Fulani, they speak the same language; their lifestyle is definitely sedentary also."

A possible solution is rewording the lead as follows:

"The Toucouleur are now considered part of the wider Fulani group as speakers of Pulaar. However, historically, they weren't, and have had a dinstinct history and custom, independent of the Fula, and did not define themselves as Fulani."

Tell me what you think about that compromise and feel free to make adjustments to the wording.Tamsier (talk)

Why has this IP inserted the same "Fula" POV when this discussion is still going? [2] Also, they have increased the number of Toucouleurs from the sourced 1 million to 5 million without sources - leaving the same ref that supports the 1 million figure! [3] I'm reverting them.Tamsier (talk) 22:31, 3 April 2024 (UTC)

Sounds good to me. Thanks for the sources. I'll add a paragraph the discusses the issue as you suggested, but I'll probably specifically cite the difference of opinion among several authors. Catjacket (talk) 11:10, 4 April 2024 (UTC)

I forgot, here's the quote from the Clark article, pages 3-4:

Nineteenth-century French ethnographers further confused the terminology by dividing Senegambian Halpulaar'en into Toucouleurs (or Tukulors) originally from Futa Toro, and Peuls (or Peuhls) consisting of Fulbe from other areas, including Bundu. The term Toucouleur most likely comes from Takrur, the name originally given by Arabic geographers to an Islamic state which flourished around the tenth century in the middle Senegal River valley. By the mid-nineteenth century, Toucouleur had become the standard designation in French sources for Fulbe considered "Muslim fanatics," openly hostile to European commercial and military activity and in favor of the establishment and maintenance of an Islamic state. In the 1850s, al-Hajj Umar Tal, or Shaykh Umar, of Futa Toro, given his tense relations with the French and his call to jihad, reinforced this stereotypical image. The Toucouleurs were contrasted with the seemingly more docile and cooperative Peuls who accepted the colonial presence. Supposed occupational differences existed between sedentary Toucouleurs, primarily agriculturalists, and nomadic pastoral Fulbe. Unfortunately, this false dichotomy has been accepted uncritically by many recent observers who often divide the Fulbe population of Bundu and the entire Senegambia-Guinea region into two separate ethnic categories, Toucouleur and Peul. The Bundu Fulbe, or Bundunkobe, and the Futa Toro Fulbe, or Futankobe, are both Halpulaar'en, and Fulbe. Catjacket (talk) 11:16, 4 April 2024 (UTC)

@Tamsier Tamsier is topic banned from anything to do with the Serer. Doug Weller talk 13:32, 20 April 2024 (UTC)

@Catjacket oops, wrong ping. Doug Weller talk 19:23, 20 April 2024 (UTC)

Oh good to know. We recently had another discussion in the Saloum talk page that was similar to this one. How is the topic ban enforced? Catjacket (talk) 13:33, 22 April 2024 (UTC)

Yes, I don't have a problem with that as per weight. As long as the lead makes it clear to the general reader that's not how the Toucouleur referred to themselves as historically, and the new lumping of Toucouleurs with the Fula is a recent phenomenon. The history section has already explained the French naming. Tamsier (talk) 14:21, 4 April 2024 (UTC)