Talk:Theatre of the World

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Opera

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Did you know nomination

The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: withdrawn by nominator, closed by BlueMoonset (talk) 03:32, 8 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

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Article history

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... that Theatre of the World, the fifth opera by Louis Andriessen and described as a grotesque stagework, premiered in Los Angeles in 2016? Source: [1]

Reviewed: Hunegund of France

Moved to mainspace by Thelisteninghand (talk) and Gerda Arendt (talk). Nominated by Gerda Arendt (talk) at 11:13, 10 July 2021 (UTC).[reply]

The article meets DYK requirements and no close paraphrasing was found. A QPQ has been done. The hook fact, while mentioned in the article's lede section, does not have a footnote in the relevant sentence. More importantly however, the hook admittedly seems plain (it just says that it premiered in Los Angeles, which isn't really a hooky fact). I think there's more potential in the "grotesque stagework" angle or perhaps something based on the reception section. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 12:06, 28 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
It should also be noted that Thelisteninghand left a comment earlier in the nomination which for some reason they commented out; it can be seen when editing this page. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 12:06, 28 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I think it's quite a surprise that the work by a Dutch composer premieres in Los Angeles. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 20:21, 28 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

It's not very clear in the hook and the way it's written doesn't really make for an interesting fact by itself. Can you expand the article and propose other alternative facts? Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 01:18, 29 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Suggesting an ALT:

ALT1 ... that Theatre of the World, the fifth opera by Louis Andriessen, has been described as a "grotesque stagework"?

I also note that the article states that the opera received mixed reviews, but the actual article text doesn't suggest that at all (and indeed the quotes given are either neutral or positive). Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 01:54, 31 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I do not want this article to be part of Did you Know. I object in the strongest terms. The composer has just sadly died. Theatre of the World was premiered in LA because it was commissioned in LA - irrelevant point.Thelisteninghand (talk) 20:50, 11 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I've moved Thelisteninghand's comment from the talk page to this nomination page and am pinging nominator Gerda Arendt and reviewer Narutolovehinata5 as I gather they probably haven't seen it. — Bilorv (talk) 15:59, 5 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Gerda Arendt Hello, as the composer has just recently died it would seem strange (and uninformed) if WP's front page carried any other fact about him at this time. For the future I think there is a DYK type of fact about this opera - the libretto is written in seven languages (is that a record?!). Regarding the comment above about the mixed reception, I've chosen a better quote from one review which is negative. I've also deleted your author link which was to the wrong Andrew Clements.Thelisteninghand (talk) 16:48, 5 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry, but DYK is now or never for this work, - any article has to be not older than 7 days when nominated. You are free to word something else, more relevant, more substantial. I thought it was better to highlight his work, rather than just saying that he died (which we did). I don't see anything strange and uninformed in it, - actually I did the same when Charles Wuorinen died, write about Haroun and the Sea of Stories (opera). --Gerda Arendt (talk) 16:58, 5 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I do not see what is wrong with featuring a recently deceased person on DYK. If anything, I'd even consider it a tribute rather than something disrespectful. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 09:59, 6 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I agree, and thank you, however here it's not the person, but his work. There was no way to expand the composer five-fold or bring him to GA. I didn't write the article, Thelisteninghand did, I just thought it was a good idea to make it better known. I kept the hook quite general, thinking that the title alone "sells" it, but am wide open to other suggestions in this case. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 10:08, 6 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

ps: it's misleading, this "moved to Mainspace" by me, - I saw it only later. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 10:09, 6 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you. I am still of the opinion that it should not be part of DYK. 'Theatre of the World' is difficult, dense, and won the composer little praise and no small degree of criticism - I can find more on that, the costume's were slated. It sank in other words, unlike for example 'La Commedia' which is staggering and won prizes. (for DYK it is a 'film opera'??) So, in light of Andriessen's recent passing it appears wrong to me, in quite a strong way, to 'sell' this article on the front page. Encyclopedias are there for reference imo.Thelisteninghand (talk) 17:41, 6 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I disagree. DYK means "Did you know ...? - supposed to pass knowledge. I see no "selling" aspect. I think it's great that he wrote that complex work, - why not tell the world, - or rather the estimated 1,200 readers who may click. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 22:52, 6 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Even if something was not critically well-received, that shouldn't disqualify it for DYK. In fact, we have plenty of examples of DYK hooks about works where their mixed or negative reception is the reason for their fame (see for example Big Rigs: Over the Road Racing). Besides, the hook is about the opera and not Andriessen. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 01:05, 7 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

An encyclopedia's purpose is to pass knowledge. 'DYK' is a front page banner for a website - it's a promotional tool and I see no reason why this fact about this work - just one of a prolific output, should have any special place. There will be many who will not be aware he is no longer with us. He died in a care home. Rest In Peace Louis Andriessen.Thelisteninghand (talk) 15:54, 7 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Thelisteninghand, please don't make it sound as if his Peace would be disturbed by his work being better known. The front page is there to promote knowledge, today we had another opera, Inferno (opera). Please provide more articles on more works if onesidedness is a concern. The other opera is also the first article about a work by that composer, - you have to start somewhere, and one is always the first. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 18:03, 7 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

This has turned the happy moment of creating my first article into a nightmare. I had no idea this could happen, and Louis died while I was writing it. Obviously I should have held off publishing for a few months. I am very upset. Please withdraw. Thelisteninghand (talk) 21:58, 7 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I withdraw. I did not understand (and perhaps still don't understand) that writing the article was a very personal act for you, and that you seem to want to keep it for yourself. - When I wrote my first article, someone helped me expose it per DYK, and that was a happy moment, for me, the subject and his mother. - I don't take the accusation of having created a nightmare well, - perhaps you could help with that, listening hand. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 22:28, 7 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Regrettably marked for closure as withdrawn per the article creator's comments above. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 01:59, 8 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Lead

@Gerda Arendt, per [2] "Grotesque Stagework in 9 Scenes" is now twice in the lead, and once in the infobox, that seems repetitious. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 10:19, 10 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for pointing out the duplication. "has been described" is too cautious if - as it seems the subtitle by the composer. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 10:23, 10 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]