Talk:Stephen Hogan

Satisfying Calliopejen1's WP:THREE

Below is to satisfy @Calliopejen1:'s WP:THREE request from earlier to demonstrate Stephen Hogan met WP:NACTOR if not the overall guideline.

1) Source #9 on audiobook: "AudioFile, Discover the World of Audiobooks". AudioFile Magazine. Retrieved 2021-07-24. The magazine granted him the coveted Earphone Awards twice, lavishing their praise in the following words that I presume I shouldn't repeat in the body of the page

• "...Narrator Stephen Hogan's performance of the twists and turns of Cyril's struggle is dramatic, life affirming, and inspiring. Hogan's pleasing Irish lilt shifts appropriately as he portrays the accents and diction of the upper- and lower-class characters. Hogan shines as he uses his gifted voice to recount Cyril's maturation into an intelligent and caring man. It's a coming-of-age tale delivered by Hogan in a sensitive narration. Listeners looking for both hearty laughs and gentle tears will enjoy Cyril's journey. R.O. Winner of AudioFile Earphones Award © AudioFile 2017."
• "....Stephen Hogan's performance of this complex plot, filled with characters of many nationalities, is outstanding. His accents, mainly Chinese, are authentic, and he displays with conviction the wide range of emotions that permeate the story. About a third of the way through the book, listeners may find it helpful to go back to the prologue in order to follow the plot more coherently, but the need to do that does not lessen the excitement of this superbly narrated thriller. S.S.R. Winner of AudioFile Earphones Award © AudioFile 2009."

2) Source #15 on his LEAD role performance in Starship Trooper 3: Leydon, Joe (Aug 18, 2008). "Film Reviews: "Starship Troopers 3: Marauder". Variety. 412 (1). p. 23. Film critic Joe Leydon wrote for Variety, "Omar Anoke, the heroic sky marshal in charge of battling the big bugs, is a charismatic celebrity and chart-topping singer whose onstage movements and militaristic song list suggest Adolf Hitler as an "American Idol" contestant.

3) Source #16 on his lead role in Kingdom of Dust: Beheading of Adam Smith by Richards, Justin. "HOSTAGE (AKA KINGDOM OF DUST)". Blueprintreview. Retrieved July 21, 2021. Supermann (talk) 21:02, 27 July 2021 (UTC)

Additional three sources solely on his theater work. It's as if anyone could be picked out of obscurity to play these lead roles with award winning guys? Thanks.

13) Burnet, Andrew (Sep 22, 2002). "John Mighton's dramatic love story Possible Worlds teases the audience into a parallel universe of romance, murder and mathematics". Sunday Herald. p. 12.

14) Hulme, Alan (March 26, 1999). "FAST FOOD Royal Exchange Studio - Recipe for a tasty night out". Manchester Evening News.

15) Nowlan, David (Nov 26, 1997). "Reviews: Surprise Package". The Irish Times. Retrieved July 27, 2021. Supermann (talk) 20:35, 8 August 2021 (UTC)

Question...

Is this article rejected because of the poor quality or because of the subject notability? If it's because of the subject notability, what is the point of editing it? Isn't it going to be rejected over and over again? Sleptlapps (talk) 09:40, 30 July 2021 (UTC)

They argue it's about notability and say one can't use argument from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Arguments_to_avoid_in_deletion_discussions#What_about_article_x.3F. But as the latter indicate, "It contains the advice or opinions of one or more Wikipedia contributors. This page is not an encyclopedia article, nor is it one of Wikipedia's policies or guidelines, as it has not been thoroughly vetted by the community. Some essays represent widespread norms; others only represent minority viewpoints." So I guess at the end of the day, it's about participation. If readers don't participate in a democracy, it's a totalitarian regime by few. During this editing process, I have definitely improved my sourcing skills. My goal is to improve it, but if some keep playing double standard, what else can I as a small potato do? They are dictating what millions of people will read? But again these millions of people never bother to chime in just like some voters in America. They decided to sit out of the consequents elections. Supermann (talk) 15:09, 30 July 2021 (UTC)

N.b.: Please read Other stuff exists. Wikipedia has many thousands of substandard articles which need deletion. We are not likely to willingly compound the problem by accepting a draft about a talented individual who has not been extensively written about in depth in reliable, published, unconnected, secondary sources. The source quality issue is, in fact, the notability problem.--Quisqualis (talk) 19:53, 8 August 2021 (UTC)

Failed verification

@TheBirdsShedTears: How does https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/actors-make-their-voices-heard-for-audiobooks-75vgqvj0d fail verification for Hogan living in London? I accessed it through Newsbank here and there's a couple of paragraphs about him using his London apartment office as a recording studio CiphriusKane (talk) 07:44, 10 August 2021 (UTC)

CiphriusKane, Hogan was born in Dublin, Ireland and currently lives in London.[2]. As you can see, this part is cited with this which doesn't indicate his birth place either. Everyone statement/claim should be cited with relevant sources than providing irrelevant inline citations. If you have access this via infoweb.newsbank.com, you need to replace the existing source with the relevant source to verify the claims. TheBirdsShedTears (talk) 08:23, 10 August 2021 (UTC)

Ah fair, I misinterpreted the source, my bad sorry CiphriusKane (talk) 08:31, 10 August 2021 (UTC)

TheBirdsShedTears Actually, having reread the Newsbank version, it does make a claim about his birthplace. It describes him as "Dublin-born". Until the pandemic, however, the Dublin-born actor was unfamiliar with home recording. How is this considered an "irrelevant inline citation"? Either way I've removed the claim about Dublin being his birthplace CiphriusKane (talk) 09:02, 10 August 2021 (UTC)

CiphriusKane, Article reads "Dublin-born actor", while this source, which has been used to support this claim doesn't mention his name. Citing claim "A" with source "B" is irrelevant. Can you please verify "Dublin-born actor" at The Times? TheBirdsShedTears (talk) 10:41, 10 August 2021 (UTC)

Thanks, but the source you are pointing out should say the following exactly, "In the past, Stephen Hogan read novels such as Sebastian Barry's The Secret Scripture, John Boyne's The Heart's Invisible Furies, and Colm Toibin's The Heather Blazing. Until the pandemic, however, the Dublin-born actor was unfamiliar with home recording. "It was born out of a needs-must scenario," he explains, from his apartment in London. "I had always worked in studios, so this was a learning curve."" Please make sure you can see the full text. Otherwise, the article is behind a paywall. And the web archive didn't manage to archive the full text, so that's probably why you can't see it. Could you please clarify if you can indeed see the full text? I don't believe it's a citing claim "A" with source "B" situation, if I understand what that means. I also tried the Newsbank mentioned by CiphriusKane, but obviously I don't have a Scotland address or IP. Thanks again for all. Supermann (talk) 15:54, 10 August 2021 (UTC)

I was able to access the Newsbank link provided by CiphriusKane now at https://infoweb-newsbank-com.nls.idm.oclc.org/apps/news/document-view?p=UKNB&docref=news/17FEBA80344F47F8&f=basic. Once I input the headline, "Actors make their voices heard" into the searchbox. Only one article came up and it would say exactly the same thing I copied pasted above which is from a world renowned university's digital library and Factiva. It's written by the same author "Pavel Barter." The first three paragraphs that are visible without climbing the paywall is exactly the same. I can't imagine he would write different things in subsequent paragraphs. There is no doubt in my mind Hogan was born in Dublin based on a solid reliable secondary source, unless you are like Donald Trump demanding to see his birth certificate? May I have @Girth Summit: chime in here as well, since s/he/they added this detail and is from Scotland? I am happy to open another 30-day free trial at the Times if push comes to shove, so that we are not relying on these free access provided by other third parties, even though they are not free either in a way. Thanks. Supermann (talk) 16:48, 10 August 2021 (UTC)

This could probably be resolved fairly easily by posting at the Help Desk, with the date and the article title, and asking whether anyone with access to the Times can verify the assertion. Girth Summit _(blether) 17:07, 10 August 2021 (UTC)

Just posted at Wikipedia:Help_desk#Access_to_the_British_Daily_National_Newspaper_The_Times. Didn't know we could do it like that. Thanks. Supermann (talk) 18:01, 10 August 2021 (UTC)

Posted to Wikipedia:WikiProject_Resource_Exchange/Resource_Request#Access_to_the_British_Daily_National_Newspaper_The_Times too after being asked. Really need to go back to my main job in accounting that does pay rent in NYC. Supermann (talk) 19:40, 10 August 2021 (UTC)

Thank you @Girth Summit, this is very helpful suggestion and @Supermann thank you for posting a resource request. I feel, now we could easily resolve this issue. TheBirdsShedTears (talk) 03:17, 11 August 2021 (UTC)

Thank you for removing that particular maintenance tag. Do you think you could remove the other three as well? Or would you still like me to submit those three requests for you? The "citation needed" to " He is also a film producer and audiobook narrator" should be removed too. Or am I too greedy? I also found https://wikipedialibrary.wmflabs.org/users/my_library/ helpful. I now have access to the newspapers.com, thanks to your skepticism. Supermann (talk) 15:05, 11 August 2021 (UTC)

@TheBirdsShedTears, Good morning! May I follow up on those "citations needed" of yours? Another 99% obvious one is "Surprise package: The Heiress Gate Theatre" at Surprise package (irishtimes.com). The only thing that could cause difficulty is searching for "Heiress" keyword itself on the site. But if you use library which contains a scan of the newspaper back then, you can clearly see Heiress in the article title. As for "Possible Worlds", one live URL can be found at Theatre POSSIBLE WORLDS, Tron Theatre, Glasgow | HeraldScotland and Adrian Osmond | POSSIBLE WORLDS (director). As much as I want to add them, it might be considered as spam. The play was covered by The Guardian, The Scotsman, Glasgow Times, but none of their sites contain a live URL anymore. Speaking of paywall! The Manchester Evening News one on Fast Food can be accessed via Factiva. Finally, not sure why Blueprintreview is not a good enough source, when the author has its own wikipedia page. Furthermore, "A Good Day to Die" needs a better source? That's the whole song that prompted this article creation. See the Bluray bonus feature extraction here 星河战队3：掠夺者主题曲《It's A Good Day To Die》 电影片段混剪MV 自配中英歌词_哔哩哔哩_bilibili that can't be added as a citation. Thanks. Supermann (talk) 02:32, 14 August 2021 (UTC)

Hi Supermann, If you think, cn maintenance tags can be addressed through library scanned url, please do so, and make it easy for everyone to very the claims/statements. Blueprintreview may not be much useful because it has been established 16 years ago (says Wikipedia) and it is still lacking reputation in Google news [1], [2]. TheBirdsShedTears (talk) 04:36, 14 August 2021 (UTC)

Thanks. But isn't the author who wrote the review and itself notable enough to have their own Wikipedia page? Blueprintreview serves a niche market. Wikipedia:RSPMISSING. Anyways, how do I post library scanned url? Do we have a good repository to upload printed source or scanned source? I am not sure why the burden of proof is on me, when it's been cited properly with page numbers to the extent possible? But I am happy to help. Supermann (talk) 04:55, 14 August 2021 (UTC)

Why does this article sound like promotional content?

Specifically this sentence. Sounds like something out of an interview for the individuals life story or something. Not sure if this article conforms to Wikipedia's standard of encyclopaedic content. Sleptlapps (talk) 14:15, 21 August 2021 (UTC)

Variety article quote

@Supermann: Where was the consensus/discussion claimed in this edit summary? CiphriusKane (talk) 09:15, 1 September 2021 (UTC)

Didn't you guys want to see whether he is notable or not? played any lead roles? That underlying quote is, "Early on, Neumeier indicates just how seriously viewers should take the vidpic: Omar Anoke (Stephen Hogan), the heroic sky marshal in charge of battling the big bugs, is a charismatic celebrity and chart-topping singer whose onstage movements and militaristic song list suggest Adolf Hitler as an “American Idol” contestant." Have you guys taken him seriously? Thanks. Supermann (talk) 22:39, 1 September 2021 (UTC)

That lends notability to the character, not to the actor. Furthermore, that is not how consensus works. What I'm seeing here is that there has been zero actual discussion and you're trying to pass off a request to demonstrate notability (which the full quote fails to do) as consensus CiphriusKane (talk) 20:59, 3 September 2021 (UTC)

I respectfully disagree. The guy is a singer. That quote gives context to why his performance of the theme song is separately featured on the bluray release. No one wants to be associated with Adolf Hitler, unless they are white supremacist. Thanks. Supermann (talk) 03:28, 4 September 2021 (UTC)

That's inference and fails to mention the actor directly. Something like the quote "sinks or swims depending on Hogan’s performance." counts as it directly addresses Hogan's performance (though that really needs context), while the Variety quote as is fails to mention Hogan at all. Maybe there's something more in the Variety article, but as I stated before I lack access to it so I'm unwilling to say further how good it is CiphriusKane (talk) 06:53, 4 September 2021 (UTC)

Also to further explain why I removed the quote in the paragraph above from the article: it lacks context and appears to be written to imply that the reviewer was favourable to Hogan's performance, but the review itself states otherwise, and the phrases that do address the performance as less than flattering, as the reviewer "never really warmed to Hogan's character" and found the character "whiney", with the best part being an "okay performance". Given how these are less than flattering, I felt it was best just to remove that sentence, but if you wish to readd it with an in-context quote feel free to CiphriusKane (talk) 07:15, 4 September 2021 (UTC)

Good afternoon. I thought I had given the Variety article url in full? Unless it’s inaccessible due to some kind of paywall for readers outside the United States that is unbeknownst to me? Any specific guidance url on how to perform in-context quote? The intent is definitely about answering request on the context around his performance as the lead role and whether the role is a lead role or not. A character that is mentioned as analogous to Hitler isn’t “lead” enough? Not anyone can pull that singing performance off. Thanks Supermann (talk) 11:55, 4 September 2021 (UTC)

Now that I see you deleted the blueprint review, maybe the entire film subsection under acting career can be deleted, because it’s duplicate of the top paragraph and the filmography list. I don’t mind you adding the performance review in the actual movie’s reception. But again please just do it instead of being a deletionist. There is a better way to be a mentor. Thanks. Supermann (talk) 12:55, 4 September 2021 (UTC)

Apologies, somehow I had the idea it was a physical media review and missed the URL...Now that I've taken a look at it, my previous statement stands. Also, I'm feeling that you're confusing lead characters with major or prominent characters. Reading the Starship Troopers 3 article, it seems the lead character is Johnny Rico while Anoke is a supporting character. As I've nae watched the film myself, I'm unable to actually judge Anoke's importance. Adam Smith on the other hand is the leading character as he's the main character. As for scrapping the film section, I'd say merge it with theatre and see about moving his audiobook narration stuff into there and see about expanding it. There's definitely reviews of those that could be used CiphriusKane (talk) 14:39, 4 September 2021 (UTC)

I don’t want to spoil you, but let me just say he is part of the “main cast” with many many lines. You should watch the trilogy/pentalogy starting from the first. That’s a better use of time in my opinion. Hope you have a good weekend. Supermann (talk) 14:56, 4 September 2021 (UTC)

Why are we back at Square Minus One not believing he plays Sky Marshall Omar Anoke at Starship Troopers 3: Marauder now?

Stephen Hogan: Difference between revisions - Wikipedia Softlavender? Drmies? Why is it still WP: OR? I don't get it. I truly don't. The Variety link at Starship Troopers 3: Marauder - Variety actually describes he plays the marshall role, "Omar Anoke (Stephen Hogan), the heroic sky marshal in charge of battling the big bugs, is a charismatic celebrity and chart-topping singer whose onstage movements and militaristic song list suggest Adolf Hitler as an “American Idol” contestant." This should tackle the removal of "citations needed". The "music video" is then described in the IGN link. Please actually read the sources. It's not gymnastics to understand this. Thanks. Supermann (talk) 05:09, 18 November 2021 (UTC)

• Softlavender, I've written a number of articles on Wikipedia, and I like to think I know what I'm doing. Do you understand this? Drmies (talk) 05:11, 18 November 2021 (UTC)

I'm fine with verifiable filmography credits not being cited in the body text. I'm not fine with promotional WP:OR trivia which does not mention Hogan being repeatedly inserted into this article. Please stop re-adding it. Softlavender (talk) 05:15, 18 November 2021 (UTC)

Thanks at least on the first point. But then how is mentioning his singing "promotional"? Isn't that just demonstrating his unique contributions to the field of entertainment per WP:NACTOR? Once you do understand he did play the role of the sky marshall who is a singer in the film. A 2nd source IGN wrote, "

Extras and Packaging

• Music Video (The most ridiculous and time wasting feature on the disc is certainly the music video for "It's A Good Day to Die," the Sky Marshal's saber rattling pop single that calls to mind Lee Greenwood's "I'm Proud to Be an American.")" I think what I had originally written is quite neutral actually, just saying his rendition was a bluray feature." Do you really need IGN to mention Hogan plays Sky Marshall again? It's just the IGN writer being lousy and doesn't make things easier for readers. Thanks.

Supermann (talk) 05:25, 18 November 2021 (UTC)

Just want to show how poor Scott Lowe's writing is. The guy has left IGN merely working there under 2 years. It's really his fault for not even mentioning Hogan in his article there. According to (4) Scott Lowe | LinkedIn , he has now become a PR person. Probably an UPE somewhere on wikipedia. Supermann (talk) 05:36, 18 November 2021 (UTC)

It's promotional uncited WP:OR that does not mention the subject. Please stop WP:BLUDGEONING, side-stepping, posting trivial walls of text, and edit-warring. If the actor is notable, find reliable independent sources that significantly cover him rather than promotional uncited WP:OR that does not mention the subject. Softlavender (talk) 05:47, 18 November 2021 (UTC)

re Flat Lake (film)

I can't find anything on the film Flat Lake, except some small mentions that don't make me feel confident that it actually exists. My guess is that it is a project that was never finished, and if so should be removed, unless somebody can come up with a proper source. Herostratus (talk) 07:46, 18 November 2021 (UTC)

It's not even mentioned in the substantial wiki article on the director, Kevin Allen (director), who founded the Flat Lake Festival. Not a good sign. Softlavender (talk) 07:58, 18 November 2021 (UTC)

IMDB has it listed as having supposedly been released "12 December 2013", but this October 2014 magazine (Brian Carmody section on left) from the Orpheum Theatre says it is "upcoming", so IMDB does not appear credible as to whether it was ever released. Softlavender (talk) 08:21, 18 November 2021 (UTC)