Talk:Sin and Punishment

Article name

Now that the game has been released on the Virtual Console, both Nintendo of America and Europe regard the game's title to be Sin & Punishment (though NOE calls it Sin And Punishment). As such, shouldn't the article name be changed to remove the "Successor of the Earth" part? Cipher ^{(Talk to the hand)} 16:33, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

Actually, on the European Wii Shop it's called "Sin And Punishment", with the subtitle following behind in Japanese. Changing it just for the American name when it's had a Japanese name for 7 years would just be stupid. MrDrake 18:55, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

I think the best idea would be to keep the original article's title, with the subtitle. The second best option would be Sin & Punishment, the title used by the US VC. The current title, with the word "and", is just plain wrong. The T 02:47, 3 October 2007 (UTC)

How is the word "and" wrong? That's what's written on the box art, which you can see in the article. It's definitely the proper name for the game.--Impossible 10:22, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

Megata Sanshiro has changed the article's name to Sin and Punishment: Hoshi no Keishōsha, but why would it need that? He didn't even name it Tsumi to Batsu: Hoshi no Keishōsha which is the full romanization. Also, why not switch to Sin & Punishment: Successor to the Earth? According to the Smash Bros. Dojo, the game Saki originated from is called Sin & Punishment: Successor to the Earth; however, according to the North American Virtual Console index web page and according to the Saki Amamiya trophy in Super Smash Bros. Brawl, the game is simply called Sin and Punishment. Should this article stay or be moved? Parrothead1983 (talk) 09:00, 15 April 2008 (UTC)

I vote for Sin & Punishment: Successor to the Earth. I'm not sure of any reason to use a full or partial romanization of the Japanese title. The argument may be that this was its original title, but by that metric wouldn't (for example) the various Resident Evil entries be renamed Biohazard? Aawood (talk) 11:20, 15 April 2008 (UTC)

Resident Evil doesn't need to be renamed as Biohazard, because the game was released internationally. Sin and Punishment wasn't released worldwide for the N64, but it was for the Virtual Consoles worldwide. Why should this article be named "Sin and Punishment: Hoshi no Keishōsha" when it is now released worldwide either simply as "Sin and Punishment" or "Sin and Punishment: Successor to the Earth"? Parrothead1983 (talk) 18:25, 15 April 2008 (UTC)

How was this title translated as "Hoshi no Keishōsha" when according to this site [1] and others that I've found the name would be "Tsumi to Bachi: Chikyū no Keishousha", why isn't this used in the description and where did the other spelling come from? I suggest using Chikyū not Hoshi unless there is some better source.(Floppydog66 (talk) 20:36, 15 May 2008 (UTC))

As a near fluent Japanese speaker, I can verify by looking at the box that is is Chikyuu not Hoshi. The kanji for hoshi is 星　but the kanji on the box is 地球 which is earth. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.126.198.57 (talk) 21:13, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

The accepted naming convention is to use the English-language name unless there isn't one, in which case the native language's version should be used. But in this case, there is an English name. So, the article should be without the subtitle, as the English release has no subtitle; the Virtual Console version in North America is "Sin & Punishment", not "Sin and Punishment", and certainly not "Sin and Punishment: Hoshi no Keishōsha" or "Sin and Punishment: Chikyū no Keishōsha". -Sesu Prime (talk) 07:58, 4 March 2009 (UTC)

While the Kanji "地球" normally reads "Chikyu", there is furigana over it reading "Hoshi". Please take a closer look at it before naming the article next time. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Ky-Guy (talk • contribs) 23:31, 30 June 2010 (UTC) term Sin & punishment is a rail shooting game not a bullet hell as is described under type

Story

I find it odd that there is no story synopsis for this article. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.77.232.145 (talk) 23:13, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

Photos

I think it would enrich the article if we put photos of the game throughout the article. I also recommend a Synopsis section, and expand the reception section. Mr.Mario 192 23:00, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

Spam

I removed one of the external links to Mobygames, which actually contains little to no information not located in the article body itself. Most of the site content there seemed automatically generated placeholder text telling us they don't have information on a variety of topics. It seems to obviously fall into the realm of a spam link, put there only to promote that website.

Mobygames actually often has useful information on several other topics, including screenshots, developers notes and such. This is not one of those cases. Once more (re: any) information on the game is entered on that page, it may be an appropriate external link, but for the time being it's clearly spam.Thatdamncoyote 23:08, 2 October 2007 (UTC)

The Plot Summaries

Out of curiosity, why are there two plot summaries on here, one labeled Plot Synopsis and the other labeled just Plot? Larrythefunkyferret 22:45, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

Airan Jo Assist Trophy

Acording to some sorces, Airan Jo makes an cameo in Super Smash Bros. Brawl as an Assist Trophy. This means Sin and Punishment is owned to Nintendo, but do you think this is true? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.152.155.52 (talk) 18:16, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

Well Super smash bros brawl does have 3d party characters line Snake & Sonic so an Airan trophy could be something similar

.Richardson j 02:35, 23 October 2007 (UTC)

I assume that Sin & Punishment is owned more by Nintendo than Treasure. Even though there are some third-party characters as playables and Assist Trophies, there aren't any Assist Trophy characters that are based on third-party characters other than the ones from the Sonic the Hedgehog and Metal Gear series. Parrothead1983 16:11, 1 November 2007

I'm hearing more on Saki being an AT than Airan but I'm to the point where we should just avoid this info until an official source like the DOJO can confirm the truth. All I know is, it's a Sin & Punishment AT but I don't know who and people keep going back and forth between Airan and Saki in their reports.

The only report I've seen is that it's a "Sin and Punishment girl". Granted, to a casual observer, Saki looks like a girl. Until we get official confirmation, or at least something vaguely solid, it should be removed.--209.243.31.233 21:43, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

It's true. http://www.smashbros.com/en_us/items/assist/assist12.html 71.165.27.38 (talk) 07:09, 22 November 2007 (UTC)

Saki Amamiya

should he have his own page? I think its fair to give Saki Amamiya one if they gave one to crash bandicoot ECT.--DarkFierceDeityLink 13:44, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

Saki is not in any game other than this (except being an assist trophy in Brawl) so i don't know what value such an article would have, or what content it would have that would not fit as well on this page 213.238.233.27 (talk) 22:45, 21 March 2008 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:N64 - Sin & Punishment.jpg

Image:N64 - Sin & Punishment.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.

If there is other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images lacking such an explanation can be deleted one week after being tagged, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.

BetacommandBot (talk) 22:08, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

About the title

I still find it odd that the title is translated to English as Sin and Punishment while Tsumi to Batsu is the title of the Japanese translation of the famous Russian novel by Fyodor Dostoevsky, Crime and Punishment. I don't know what error of copyright law made the authors translate the title this way, but I think at least it should be changed at the literal translation part of the article. I haven't played the game enough to see the connection between the two great works, but there might be so at least we should leave a clue on contrary to the misleading translation. DAud IcI (talk) 18:37, 14 September 2008 (UTC)

At the end of the game, Saki, the protagonist of the game said "When I was little, I always wanted to be a cop." The words "crime" and "sin" are very similar; however, the word "crime" is often used by cops (or police) and secret agents (e.g. FBI, CIA, ATF, etc.) in criminal investigations, like when burgulars try to steal money out of banks and consumer products out of homes or when murderers kill people. The word "sin" is often used to refer to things that are against God, like committing adultery and using God's name in vain. "Sin" is also used to refer to the Seven Deadly Sins. "Crime and Punishment" probably sounds like what Nintendo of Japan actually meant, but that doesn't mean this article should be moved to "Crime and Punishment: Hoshi no Keishōsha", because "Sin and Punishment" is the official English name of the game; however, I'm not sure if it should either use "Tsumi to Batsu: Hoshi no Keishōsha" (due to being a Japan-only game, although being imported to the Virtual Console), "Successor to the Earth" (according to the official info of Saki Amamiya's Assist Trophy at the Smash Bros. Dojo), "Successor of the Earth" (which is considered by many to sound better) or neither (due to the Virtual Console website simply referring to it as "Sin and Punishment"). Parrothead1983 (talk) 23:14, 15 September 2008 (UTC)

Perhaps Nintendo wanted to avoid copyright infringement and thus a possible lawsuit by the Dostoevsky estate by calling it Sin and Punishment. Tsumi can be translated as crime or sin, crime has its roots in sin, sin is just a broader concept.Zero no Kamen (talk) 18:43, 28 April 2010 (UTC)

Considering the book is from the 19th Century, I don't think that's an issue. More likely, in my opinion, is simple ignorance -- many otherwise competent translators let slip many proper nouns like these. 68.191.42.175 (talk) 05:04, 17 May 2012 (UTC)

Development Section

I removed the paragraph stating that Nintendo wanted the game to be made so they could appeal to an older demographic, and etc. Without sources, the entire paragraph is just speculation. In fact, for all we know, it was probably written by a self-professed "hardcore gamer" who thinks that Nintendo is too "kiddie" and should make more "mature" games. Maybe Treasure approached Nintendo with the idea (either way it is a Treasure original, that much is certain). In any case, I request that the section be left as is until reliable (and I stress reliable) sources can be found.Brittany Ka (talk) 18:08, 19 March 2009 (UTC)

About the Title

While the Kanji "地球" normally reads "Chikyu", there is furigana over it reading "Hoshi". Please take a closer look at it before naming the article next time, please.

Requested move

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: page moved. Vegaswikian (talk) 22:18, 3 September 2010 (UTC)

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Sin and Punishment: Chikyu no Keishōsha → Sin and Punishment — Per WP:COMMONNAME. Game is usually referred to as just Sin and Punishment in English-speaking countries, and the North American and European Virtual Console sites drop the Japanese subtitle as well. Prime Blue (talk) 15:16, 26 August 2010 (UTC)

• Support as per nom. Even the box art supports this renaming. Why would the transliterated Japanese be necessary? Even disambiguation would simply add (game). --Bejnar (talk) 20:55, 26 August 2010 (UTC)

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The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Game Genre

Yeah, it needs to be discussed finally. All too often I see people mistakenly refer to this game as a "rail shooter" when it plays almost nothing like genuine rail shooters such as House of the Dead, Rez, and Resident Evil: Umbrella Chronicles. In these games, because the player has no control over movement, they are forced to shoot down hazards to avoid harm. This is where the term "rail shooter" comes from: you are literally on rails. This is a fundamentally distinct gameplay approach that Sin and Punishment does not employ. In Sin and Punishment the player is not on rails--they retain full control over their player avatar at all times--and in most circumstances is able to evade hazards in addition to shooting them down. Sin and Punishment has functionally identical gameplay to games such as Cabal, NAM-1975, and Wild Guns; the only aesthetic difference is that the playing field appears to scroll forward. And thus, Sin and Punishment belongs in their genre: "cabal shooters".174.45.178.216 (talk) 21:41, 29 September 2014 (UTC)

Someone brought up a similar point on my talk page a while back. Feel free to look over the discussion; it should still be there as of this writing. I'm not sure why he never made the change. Larrythefunkyferret (talk) 05:32, 30 September 2014 (UTC)

It's been a while but I think that might have been me actually. I did end up making the change, but it seems there are people determined to revert it back to rail shooter. I really want to hear their arguments.174.45.178.216 (talk) 02:54, 9 October 2014 (UTC)

Based on novel?

Sin and Punishment is listed in the category of Video games based on novels, but the article makes no mention of this. Is this true or did someone confuse it with Crime and Punishment? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Triosk (talk • contribs) 05:27, 26 June 2017 (UTC)

Possibly. I don't think this game is based on any literary work. Not sure why that category was there, I removed it. TarkusAB 16:10, 26 June 2017 (UTC)

GA Review

This review is transcluded from Talk:Sin and Punishment/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: ProtoDrake (talk · contribs) 15:58, 12 November 2017 (UTC)

I'll be back in a few days with a full review. If I'm not, please ping. --ProtoDrake (talk) 15:58, 12 November 2017 (UTC)

Review

• Minor helpful note; the following reference confirms that Suzuki was a character designer - Sahdev, Ishaan (8 December 2014). "Sin & Punishment 2 Art Director Designed Enemies For Xenoblade Chronicles X". Siliconera. Archived from the original on 15 December 2014. Retrieved 11 July 2017. {{cite web}}: Unknown parameter |deadurl= ignored (|url-status= suggested) (help)
  • Added the ref into the body. Not sure if you're asking to add it into the infobox. Since he wasn't credited as lead artist, I didn't add him to the infobox. But if you think he should be added, I can add him.
• "...Armed Volunteers was a her ploy to groom Saki..." - Correct to either use "a" or "her".
  • Done
• " than any in any of Treasure's previous projects" - Remove first "any".
  • Done
• "... supervising the project if he wasn't skilled enough to play it." - Please replace contraction with "was not".
  • Done
• "console's life cycle was approaching its end.[15][8]" - Switch the refs around.
  • Done
• " and in Japan on April 25, 2016.[24][25][23]" - Switch the refs around again.
  • Done
• All sources check okay, all links archived. One note; the American version of the Iwata Asks doesn't work properly when archived, but the [ UK version] does with Archive.is. I can assure you that Archive.is is currently approved for use by Wikipedia. Here's the archived version of the Iwata Asks interview, and I've taken care to archive all six pages. If you prefer to use WebCite, I can provide the archive links for that too. There are also a lot of links that aren't properly formatted, but that's not something to hold up an otherwise-good nomination with.
  • Done, I used the archive.is link you provided, thanks. What formatting issues did you notice?

That's all I saw that's holding this article back. Once these have been addressed, this can pass. --ProtoDrake (talk) 17:09, 14 November 2017 (UTC)

@TarkusAB: Sorry, forgot to ping you. --ProtoDrake (talk) 09:41, 15 November 2017 (UTC)

@ProtoDrake: Replied. TarkusAB^talk 00:40, 16 November 2017 (UTC)

@TarkusAB: I htink that's fine. I'll Pass this article as a GA. Oh, and the problem with the Iwata Asks interview was that the text of the interview was refusing to load in the archived version. --ProtoDrake (talk) 12:09, 16 November 2017 (UTC)

Unsubstantiated content

10 Jan 2022 The following in the development section is unsubstantiated by the references and should be removed unless it can be cited.

“Yamagami found Treasure to be difficult to work with and called them a "weird" company. He encountered troubles establishing deadlines with the Treasure team, who continued to deflect such requests.[8] When Yamagami first played an early prototype of Sin and Punishment, he was impressed but found it too difficult. Treasure responded by saying he should not be supervising the project if he was not skilled enough to play it.”

The link goes to a story about involvement in working on the difficulty of the sequel and also doesn’t reflect that story. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 159.196.225.230 (talk) 13:07, 9 January 2022 (UTC)

It is in the source. Read the third page of the Nintendo interview:

• To put it bluntly, they were a weird company.
• But with Treasure, they say, “We don’t know. We’ll show you something when it’s done.” I’d say, “Well, that causes some trouble,” and they’d say, “But if we don’t know, we don’t know.” We went back and forth like that for a long time.
• When I said, “It’s too difficult. I can’t do it,” they responded, “Then you’re not good enough to be in charge of this project.”

TarkusAB^talk/contrib 20:57, 9 January 2022 (UTC)